#I fucking hate Agamemnon

[alexandrarosa]

Who’s the worst character in the Ancient Greek literature?

10. You

9. Can’t

8. Choose

7. The worst one

6. They are all

5. Nuanced

4. And complicated

3. They face difficulties

2. And have to make hard choices

1. F***ing Agamemnon

[emmikay]

Me: When interacting with Classic Literature, particularly that of the pre-christian world, it is important to approach the work from the morality and customs of it's cultural origin. If we apply modern ethics then we miss the intentions of the author, and the function of this literature within its original society, and therefore will fail to understand it as a whole.

Also me: fuck agamemnon in this house we hate agamemnon

[0-patches-0]

once again thinking about the house of Atreus and what a shame it was that the daughters of Leda had to be shoved into that mess of a family

[valiantvillain]

Finished reading Sophocles' Ajax last night and let me tell you Teucer fucking impressed me. Man had no fucks left to give and dragged Agamemnon's ass right there. He dropped some great arguments and great lines. Favorite character of the play.

Also I now really want to look at it in the original Greek because I'm very curious to see what words exactly they are using to refer to Tecmessa. John Moore's translation consistently refers to her as his wife and Ajax even refers to her as his wife but also she's a captive, a war prize and we don't really see that happen with other women like Briseis in the Iliad so does that mean Tecmessa after being captured was somehow made his wife? Would that even be allowed? Is it because Ajax had no wife waiting for him at home that he can marry his war prize? I'm not complaining or anything I am just left with so many questions about this character. Especially when so much attention is given to the fact that Teucer is the son of a slave woman but no such attention is brought to Eurysaces, Ajax's son by Tecmessa.

It's just very fascinating and I will probably be plumbing the depths of jstor with my questions. Though if anyone has recs for articles or books discussing these kinda things please let me know.

[trojanhorseleftbackhoove]

Finished Song of Achilles

No im not okay i've been staring at my wall for fuckin days thinking about them HOW AM I OKAY THEY'RE TRAGIC ALSO WHOEVER IS WRITING THOSE DAMNED FICS I WANT A WORD PLEASE. JUST A SMALL MERRY CONVERSATION IF YOU WILL... (PS. my copy of the song of achilles book >>>> made it pretty but too thick with those pics)

[splendidemendax]

also, ftr, sophocles' electra works a thousand better as a sequel to aeschylus' agamemnon than aeschylus' own libation bearers.

[spocktheestallion]

for a tragedy the iliad is pretty funny. compiled some of my favorite things about it (not in chronological order)

- patroclus barely speaks for most of the book but EVERYBODY loves him. like he’s literally the entire greek camp’s precious meow meow. the ORIGINAL sweet little meow meow. even the GODS are sad and feel bad when he dies. even HOMER loves patroclus, always calling him “faultless patroclus” “my patroclus” “gentle patroclus” “sweet patroclus” WE GET IT. achilles, briseis, menelaus, ajax, literally every member of the greek camp is down ATROCIOUS for patroclus all bc he’s just one Really Nice Dude. just one very Sweet and Polite Fella. one Extra Special Guy <3 his whole narrative purpose is simply to be everyone’s special little scrunkly

- in one of the MANY passages where achilles is lamenting about how sad it is that patroclus is dead he promises patroclus’ corpse that he will have many deep-bosomed trojan and dardanian women weep for him. he tells his dead buddy “i will get the absolute THICKEST hoes with the BIGGEST mommy milkers for your funeral” honestly? id be honored

- all the arguments escalate so quickly. an old man very politely appeals to agamemnon to pretty please give his daughter back and offers him a huge fortune for her and agamemnon calls him a crotchety old bitch and tells him he’ll fucking kill him if he ever sees him again

- that same old man is a priest of apollo. you know, the plague god? anyway priest calls in a favor and apollo curses the greeks with a plague

- to address this, achilles decides to resolve it by calling all the greeks together and passive aggressively going “HM! i WONDER what could have caused a PLAGUE! it’s almost like we OFFENDED the PLAGUE GOD somehow. now WHAT could WE (cough agamemnon) done to offend the PLAGUE GOD?????” all in front of agamemnon

- zeus spends most of the book desperately trying to keep the gods OUT of the war. then once he’s finally had enough he just calls them all together and says “go nuts” and then they do

- artemis talks shit on the battlefield so hera calls her a bitch, steals her bow, and beats her with it. artemis then goes back to zeus and cries

- polydamas says to hector “hey you killed patroclus and achilles is gonna be fucking pissed. we should probably go back to the city while we can” and hector calls him a bitch and tells him to stfu. achilles then chases them back to the city and hector decides to stay outside and get killed by achilles instead of going in with the rest of the army bc he didn’t wanna hear polydamas say “i told you so”

- diomedes is about to fight with a guy called glaucus but then they realize their ancestors were friends or something so they decide not to kill each other, and diomedes says “hey! why don’t we even trade armor! :) just as a show of friendship! :))” and glaucus is like “yeah sure!” and gives diomedes his really nice gold plated armor while glaucus gets diomedes’ shitty plain bronze armor

- achilles makes a bitchy comment to his horses about leaving patroclus to die and the horse momentarily gains the ability to talk just to tell achilles it wasn’t THEIR goddamn fault, tells achilles he’s gonna die soon, and then goes back to being a normal horse.

- zeus with his daughters: oh child ❤️ oh my dear ❤️ oh there there i didn’t really mean it ❤️ sweetie why don’t you go help the greeks?❤️

- zeus with his sons: “ares you fucking donkey”

- everyone calling paris a stupid coward bitch every time they see him. all of troy fucking hates him. hector fucking hates him. helen fucking hates him.

- paris getting dressed up in fancy armor and prancing to the front lines going “i’ll fight ANY of you greeks!” and menelaus (the guy whose wife he stole) goes “alright bet” and paris nearly pisses his pants and tries to hide but then his brother hector calls him a piece of shit and tells him he hopes he dies and makes him fight menelaus. menelaus promptly ROCKS HIS SHIT. literally starts dragging him by his helmet like a rag doll, would’ve killed him if aphrodite hadn’t teleported paris outta there (BOO)

[streets-in-paradise]

Matured Desire - Achilles x (Fem) Reader

Troy (2004) Oneshot

Requested by Anon

" hiya! I have an Achilles request, what if they’ve both been sort of enemies for the longest time ever since they were kids, and at one point he gets fed up, and kisses her roughly ending up in the roughest kinkiest sex people could think of (tying up, choking, spanking, dirty talk, dom x sub, sort of a hate fuck.) please! "

Hi! I'm a bit nervous because this is my first time writing a full piece of smut, but I did my best and i hope you will enjoy it. The plot for the childhood rivalry is inspired in greek mythology, but adapted to how the story of the film plays out regarding characterzations.

Warnings: Rough hate fuck against a wall - hair pulling -chocking - spanking - lots of dirty talk.

Summary: Your eternal rivalry with Achilles gets you the attention of the mycenaean king In the context of his country wide search for a queen. Bringing up your troubled past together, the myrmidon believes you are seeking an union with Agamemnon to get the power to destroy his life.

As he confronts you about it, your tensions get to a critical point when the warrior concludes he will have to do something out of it. Your hatred remains too close to passion and he can only ruin you for any other man before you could ruin his lifetime's ambitions.

Tags: @thorsslxve

There was nothing Achilles despised more than the cheerfullness of Agamemnon. Not only because it usually meant bad news, but also due to how insufferable he tended to become on a good mood. His arrogance was high up to the sky contesting with his. Since the king felt in constant need to compete with his best warrior, it was important for him to brag on his every achievement.

On that particular moment, it was about the bride he would get for himself. After his brother married the most beautifull woman in the world he started to reconsider the lack of a queen in his palace and commanded every king of Greece to pick one of their unwed daughters so he could pick a wife among the princesses of the region. All the generals of his army were invited to witness the contest, and a handfull of kings he considered friends were there as well.

It was a power display to cause envy. A parade of the most ravishing girls of Greece after Helen circling the King in some sort of reverse parody of what happened when the spartan queen was still a maiden wanted by a multitude of suitors. The myrmidon found it hilarious, but that entertainment came with the price of standing the triumphal bliss of his rival.

In order to avoid an early scandall making fun of him, Achilles tried to distract himself watching the girls. They were all veiled for the future groom, only showing their faces when he commanded each one to introduce themselves. Beauty from all over the country was gathered there and while their faces remained covered he could still have a fun cassually checking their bodies.

He found a personal favorite quite soon. The light clothes of her fancy purple dress allowed him to perfectly picture her shape underneath, occupying his imagination in more pleasant thoughts. One by one her contestants did their thing, but he followed her with expectancy for the big reveal.

All traces of amusement abandoned the warrior's face when he recognized you. From all his many daughters, King Lycomedes had to pick you in representation of Scyros. It was unfortunately true for him that you had become a very desirable woman, so the choice was understandable, but you were one his enemies of longest date. Since he was a kid hidding in your father's court, and when you were teenagers you almost got him kicked out of there.

Everytime you crossed ways, disaster happened.

It was an unspoken theory, but he believed it all started because you were jealous of your sister. She was his first crush, and you told your father about it after you discovered them making out. Lycomedes would have kicked him out if Odysseus wouldn't have discovered his disguise in the first place, but your hatred didn't end with that.

Only a heartbroken girl would react so viscerally, the hate you hoarded for years didn't make sense otherwise. He believed you still despised him because you couldn't have him and once that childhood crush matured into desire things could only escalate. You would never forgive him for being your first love, but the passion of your hate showed your flame never got extinguished.

As soon as circunstancies allowed it, you were mesmerizing the mycenaean king with your disdain for his soldier.

" Achilles! Long time no seen. " You saluted him, with poisonous cordiality. " How are things going in your kingdom of savages? Well, only if that can be called a kingdom. Nowadays it's a military reserve of Mycenae you don't even rule as king. "

The myrmidon was visibly calm, calculating his strike before delivering it.

" How is Deidamia? I remember her with such strong affection."

" She is married. " You responded, with false propriety. " Happyly married, thanks to our protectiveness of her keeping scum away."

The wedding of his teenage crush didn't bother him at all, but he still manage to utilize it against you.

" I always knew she was going to make it before you. Look now where you ended: pleasing an old man that could be your father. "

You showed a tranquilzing smile to the king, mere witness of your altercate that was untill then very amused.

" Don't worry, your majesty. Achilles tends to act like this arround me because my presence reminds him of details that ruin the appeal of his legend. He wants no one to remember he spent his younger years hidding in my palace dressing on girl's clothes so your emisaries wouldn't find him. Have you seen the baby face of his little cousin? He has the same girly features he used to have back then."

Agamemnon was in awe with the slander. Even if it was just for that, you were becoming a strong favorite.

" Well, my dear. I hope you have some good stories for me. "

" She is the only person in the country who is more obsessed with me than you. " Achilles recalled, determined to ruin your plans. " She went as far as turning her father against me saying i was going to sleep with her sister. "

The way in which he twisted the facts to make it sound like a conspiracy against him got out the worst of you.

" I was the onlyone seeing past your charm, and time proved I was ríght now that we all know of your amatory adventures. " You fiercely defended yourself. " You were a reckless boy that had just discovered the thing hanging between his legs and was eager to try it on the first foolish girl available. Deidamia was too naive, but I knew better. By warning my father I protected her and saved our royal house from the shame of being stucked with a fatherless mess like the one you were when we received you. "

It crossed límits, but he wasn't afraid of returning the hatefull gesture.

" I think your boyfriend deserves to know where all that hate for me comes from before taking his choice. " He teased you ríght away. " You are my Phaedra … "

He had just compared you to the most sexually frustrated queen in greek history, whose vengefull spite was rooted on being ignored by the object of her desires.

" You insolent BASTARD!!! " You called him out before you could loose your temper and try to smack him. " Better start praying I won't be crowned queen. "

The warning left a bad taste in his mouth that was stronger than the altercate. Imagining you as Agamemnon's bride was a nightmare on itself because of the implications of a teaming up against him, but there was more that he couldn't simply admit.

He hated you, but couldn't stand the thought of seeing you with him. He still attempted to understand why you were so Interested on giving yourself to that pig of a king. Could your thirst for vengeance have gone that far? Where you capable of tolerating Agamemnon as your husband just so you could get some control over him? It was most likely that you had no idea of where you were stepping in, since your island once sheltered him safely because they didn't have much contact with the mycenaeans.

Figuring out what you were all about was his most inmediate need but, for that, he needed to talk to you in private. All day he awaited untill the oportunity to get lost with you presented itself during a lousy banquet. Following you closely as you intended to leave, he catched you off guard in a hallway.

" You knew this was coming, now follow me. "

Your playfull smirk spoke for you before you did.

" What If I don't? "

He grabbed you harshly, keeping your wrist still.

" We will do it the hard way. "

There was no choice, so you let him guide you through the foreign palace searching for the nearest room he could lock you in. Achilles secured the door behind him, knowing from then you were going to be completely alone.

" After comparing me to the thirsty wife of Theseus, you drag me away like this? " You mocked him ríght away. " Have you no shame? "

The tension was escalating slowly, but consistently.

" I have no time for your games, so you better tell me what I want to know. "

You chuckled lightly, enjoying yourself in this curiosity.

" Go ahead, i'm feeling generous. "

He groaned out of angered frustration, clearly fed up with you already.

" What do you want from Agamemnon? Do you expect me to believe you really are excited to the chance of being his wife? "

You response was calm and you were aware that would provoke him.

" He is the wealthiest, most powerfull man in Greece, and he hates you … Two qualities I find irresistible. "

He pushed you against a wall, barely able to control his rage to continue the interrogation.

" Do you think i'm a fool? You can't possibly wish for anything but the power to destroy me through that marriage. "

His strong hand grabbed your neck and squeezed, cutting off your air with ease. Achilles wanted to force a truth out of you, but couldn't help noticing you were peraphs too on board with that before releasing you so you could speak.

" I want an empty palace where i can sit on a throne. " You began to explain once you catched your breath. " While he will be away with you doing his wars, i can do what I want here. "

It wasn't enough for him.

" … And when he will want to touch you? Are you going to spread your legs for him like a good little wife ? "

His hand was once more arround your neck, quietly threatening with more choking depending of your answer.

" Are you trying to scare me? That's not going to work with me. " You mischievously warned him. " I'll do what it takes, my duty of queen. Agamemnon can have me, I will even fake my moans if i have to just to keep him satisfied. I'm fine with that, he has to get something out of the deal. I will take care of his throne and meet his sexual needs "

The answer awakened something primal on him.

" Not if I ruin you first … "

Sick of pretending to ignore the frustrating tension, he pulled you in for a rough kiss and you responded taking one of your hands to the back of his neck to pull his hair.

There was no way out for you from then.

Achilles ripped off the safety pins of your dress so it would fall on the floor. Once you were naked against him he began to tease you again.

" Look at how easily I destroyed your pride … Yet you dare to deny you are a needy whore. "

You didn't stay behind, iniciating another passionately hatefull kiss while your hands worked in undressing him. The godly shaped hero allowed you to roam his perfectly sculped body and you sank your nails in his hips before replying.

" You are only good at killing or fucking and you loathe me enough for either, so unless you want to spear me … "

The recklessness was paid at high cost when he turned you over so you will be facing the wall, head posicioned firmly to the side.

" I'm going to make you feel as if I was killing you. " He whispered against your ear in a husky tone. " But first, you will learn to respect me. "

You flinched with anticipation, incapable of predicting what he would do. Then, his hand started following the trace of your back all the way down and stopped in the curve of your ass.

A soft squeeze was followed by a hard spank that sounded as strongly as it felt. It send a wave of confusing, pain-stained pleasure all the way to your core, but you tried to keep still. He persisted, untill it became so intense that your knees were failing and you were about to cry.

" Who are you going to spread your legs for now? " He asked in a mock. " Are you going to be my obedient little whore? "

You lost the few shame you had left with one more slap on the mistreated surface of your asscheck.

" YES, YES! " You practically cried out. " I'll be, … I'll be your whore. I want it so badly, please! "

Achilles released a dark chuckle.

" Let's see how bad you really want it. "

He had barely reached the surface of your soaked cunt with his fingertips and you were already buckling your hips in desperation to find friction.

" Dripping wet, you nasty whore. " He commented and removed the hand to watch you fall apart. " Stop whimpering, i'm not going to keep touching you. Caresses are not what you deserve."

Suddenly, you felt the tip of his hard cock teasing your folds. Arrousal had reduced you to a pathetic mess and he got to hear you sobbing from that contact.

" No mercy, I will be rammering you. " He warned you. " … and you are going to take it. "

With that, he pushed himself inside you. Absolutely careless for your needed time adjusting to his size, he began his mercieless thrusting using you for his pleasure. The animalistic grunts he was making and the exquisite painfull pleasure of being fucked like that were soon going to become to much for you.

Achilles had completed his vengeance to control you before you could control him: you were ruined for any other man.

[dootznbootz]

I don't think Greek Mythology retellings/adaptions/inspired/etc. are necessarily "evil"...but I DO think people REALLY need to understand that there's a huge difference between the actual mythology and certain media.

I feel like people have to basically do a "Fandom ___" to say the different versions. Like "PJO ___", "Hades game ___", "TSOA ___". For it to be understood that these depictions are DIFFERENT. I'm saying this as someone who grew up reading PJO and still has a soft spot for it. But as someone who really loves Greek Mythology as well, I sometimes get really SAD.

I'm going to use the comparison of Howl's Moving Castle with it's Book Vs. Movie. I enjoy both!!! But they are honestly very different. In the movie there is no "sister swap", Markle isn't a young teenager, Sophie doesn't throw weed killer at Howl, and many more moments. But I enjoy both because even though there are changes they still keep components that are ingrained into the characters!

In some Greek Myth retellings/adaptations/stories/etc., characters are...SO different from the source material. That's fine...Choose what you want with your story... But folks should know that the modern adaptations are NOT the source material!!!

It bothers me that a lot of these wonderful myths and stories are twisted up and seen so differently because of a modern version of them. You can have that character be "awful" or a certain way in your story. But I almost feel that as fans, it's not good to generalize them or see it as "This is the truth". People are hating the mythological figure when it's only in that interpretation they are like that.

In PJO, Ares is "Zeus' favorite", isn't a good dad, a misogynist, etc. The actual myths? One of his Epithets is LITERALLY "Feasted by Women", in the Iliad everybody basically bullies him with Zeus literally saying he hates him. He cries when he learns one of his sons is killed in the war. He literally kills someone about to rape his daughter. Ares isn't perfect but it makes me sad with how he's viewed and talked about when it's only in PJO he's like that. Same with Dionysus. Read the Bacchae, you'll love it.

In Lore Olympus, Apollo rapes Persephone (noticing the fact that modern takes on the myths add rapes where there never were hmmmmm) when he never did in any of the myths.

In TSOA, Thetis is cruel when in the Iliad, she is such a loving mother to Achilles. She grieved alongside her son over Patroclus. Also with Agamemnon. In Ipheginia at Aulis, Agamemnon is a MESS. He adored his children.

In Circe, Odysseus is viewed as a selfish man who ONLY hurts others and doesn't care about his family when that is LITERALLY his one consistent character trait. HE is actually the one who is the victim of rape. Circe was never raped.

Medusa is only a victim in Ovid's, a Roman man, works. Not in GREEK mythology. She was just a cool monster. Leave Perseus alone. Poseidon and Medusa actually had a consensual relationship in Greek Mythology!

These adaptations/retellings/inspired by/etc. whatever anybody wants to call them, are not the real myths! They may be similar in some ways but to just generalize them or hate the deity/mythological figure because of something they did in the new media feels fucked up!

You can enjoy these new stories. There's nothing wrong with that!!! But know they're not the real myths. Maybe even label it as "I hate ____'s version of ____". As that makes it clear what version you're talking about.

[this-and-this-and-this2]

Achilles: I fucking hate Agamemnon.

Patroclus: Watch your language, there are children in the house.

Achilles : My bad.

Achilles: I fucking hate–

Achilles: *covers Pyrrhus's ears*

Achilles: –Agamemnon

[alexandrarosa]

I reentered my Ancient Greek phase and just got reminded why I aggressively hate Agamemnon

[padfoot-lupin77]

The Song of Achilles: a summary

Patroclus: *fangirling over Achilles*

Achilles: WhAt HaS hEcToR eVeR dOnE tO mE??

Chiron: 🏆patrochilles fan club founder

Thetis: *homophobic noises in the background*

Odysseus: 🏆patrochilles fan club president

Diomedes: I hate myself but I’m better than all of you combined

Briseis: bi rights? :D

Agamemnon: [enter nonsense]

Hector: oh fuck

[iliadfacts]

Troy (2004) should be considered a violation of international law, but I will say that there was some deeply inspired casting that occurred during the making of that movie. Orlando Bloom as Paris? Eric Bana as Hector? Sean Bean as Odysseus??? Literally the only praise that I could give the film. And although I hate the characterization of Agamemnon, Brian Cox being casted as him is something that becomes funnier and funnier to me as I watch more and more Succession. You’d better be smelling your fucking armpit, Achilles.

[lone-rhapsodist]

About the new Emily Wilson translation of the Iliad. These are the opening lines which lots of people seem to hate:

These are fine. Absolutely fine. I like the use of the word 'cataclysmic'. It's not as revolutionary as the 'complicated man' from her Odyssey -- really good choice of word, by the way. But it's still very good.

I don't understand the hate. You can dislike it -- that's also absolutely fine. But the hate... I don't get it.

You can dislike a work for being mediocre. Like some Greek mythology retellings. You can criticise them for how they handle their source material or subject matter. You can be especially critical if they really subvert it and turn it into something that it's not. But hate?

Did they fucking write Nazi propaganda? Did they write it in order to incite violence and crimes and hate against humanity? Did they literally write "go and kill people" or something?

Hate is a very strong emotion, folks. It should be reserved for really not-okay things. Things can be bad, can be mediocre, can be just about fine. But a translation you dislike? A retelling that's a bit poor? You HATE it? Really?

Ultimately, you can do what you want. You can do like that guy from the Textkit post and cancel your pre-order. You can go on Twitter and indulge in anonymous hatred. (I'm so glad I don't really use it, I nearly missed this. Nearly.) You can do what you want.

That's literally my policy here, have you noticed? I reblog almost anything Classics related. Literature. Worship. Retellings. Art. Videogames. Anything. You know why? Because I believe that anyone should have the right to engage with Classics however they please insofar as they don't hurt anyone. That's the only big, bold disclaimer. That is why, on this blog, you don't find fucking Nazi propaganda camouflaged as engagement with Classics. Everything else is pretty much fine. Even Patrochilles. Even Agamemnon. Even Theseus -- that is a tough one, but I try to keep an open mind. I tend to draw the line at Hades and Persephone -- it is very clear what he does to her in the story, and I'm not condoning it, or anyone who tries to minimise it. See, that's a thing that is really deserving of hate. But otherwise, if it's a thing that doesn't hurt anyone, then it's pretty much game.

You can read things and engage with them and use your critical thinking and sort them into good or bad or it's complicated etc. Like I said, you can do what you want. But hate... Be very careful with hate. I mean, you can say it in jest, like "I hate Mondays". That's fine. But "I hate this", or "I hate that"? Maybe think about it for a second. Maybe think, WHY do I hate it, or WHAT do I hate about it and WHY? Try to use some perspective.

That's all I have to say on this matter.

[aficionadoenthusiast]

if there's one good thing to come of constantly seeing antis and hate in the tsoa tags, it's that i've realized patroclus is a really unreliable narrator (which i knew already, i just finally figured out how to put it into words).

so when i search the tsoa tags, there's all these anti tsoa posts about how horrible and evil it is that miller depicted the two of them as 'soft uwu gay boys' (their words, not mine. i've seen this phrase in almost every hate post about the book), and like, that's fine, that's just one interpretation of their relationship (it's really not, actually. it's homophobia and a bit of sexism), but also, that's the whole point of the book.

we already know they were cutthroat soldiers that fought in a war. that was never up for debate. the whole point of tsoa is to show another perspective of their story, the perspective that shows that these soldiers were capable of loving and being loved. since this is what miller wanted to portray, obviously she showed them as softer and gentler than in the iliad. besides, if she had just gone off of the iliad exactly, it would just be another translation, not a retelling.

i saw a post a while ago that said tsoa is actually patroclus telling his side of achilles' story to thetis at the end so she would let him finally be at rest, and i really liked that (if i ever find the post, i'll link it [i found this one, but i don't think it's the one i'm thinking of]). but thetis knew all about how important they were to the war. what she didn't know was how her son could care, and create, and love, so that's the part of his story patroclus focused on, so, of course, he left stuff out and downplayed the violence and fighting.

and then, since it is in patroclus' perspective, he was eternally aware of his physical inferiority to achilles, and, again, that's not the story he wanted to tell. based on his narrations, he was deeply self-conscious, to the point where he felt that doing anything for himself felt like he was stealing or doing something wrong, and the only thing he was ever sure of was achilles' love for him, and even that took years to finally cement within him. he was never going to focus on his own achievements because he didn't think he had any. he was never going to focus on the things he did that achilles could also do since there was no point as achilles was always better than him.

and it wasn't out of jealousy. he literally said why should he be ashamed when achilles was better than everybody? agamemnon was the one that couldn't accept that

but, anyways, my point is that patroclus was never going to tell the whole story, and, really, he went through all of this for y'all to call him a 'soft uwu gay boy'? as if one the most respectful and healthy gay relationships i've ever read is too soft? because men aren't allowed to be soft? fuck you

[menelaiad]

hi i read a classicist saying that in the Greek myths Helen never chose her husband, they said she didn’t chose Menelaus and she was raped and miserable but i can’t find a source for that? i thought Helen chose Menelaus as her husband when she was asked, didn’t she? is there any source for Helen hating Menelaus and being forced to marry him? I thought Menelaus was a good husband :c

EEEEEEE i wasnt gonna answer this. there's a lot of stuff here that i don't usually touch with a ten foot pole because i have no self control and am an opinionated asshole. THAT BEING SAID. i will give you .... the 'big three' traditions on how menelaus/helen came about and my own personal thoughts on them. why they work. why they don't. why i choose to .... follow certain ones and not others. okay? okay.

as i said, there are three BIG 'storylines' as to how menelaus and helen were coupled up, basically. they are fragmentary, they are not detailed. but they're all we have. or at least. they're the three you usually see playing out.

first is. HESIOD. and his CATALOGUE OF WOMEN. (all fragments). he says in fragment 68:

(ll. 11-15) ((lacuna) . . . and as many women skilled in blameless arts, each holding a golden bowl in her hands. And truly Castor and strong Polydeuces would have made him their brother perforce, but Agamemnon, being son-in-law to Tyndareus, wooed her for his brother Menelaus.

(ll. 21-27) And from Ithaca the sacred might of Odysseus, Laertes son, who knew many-fashioned wiles, sought her to wife. He never sent gifts for the sake of the neat-ankled maid, for he knew in his heart that golden-haired Menelaus would win, since he was greatest of the Achaeans in possessions and was ever sending messages to horse-taming Castor and prize-winning Polydeuces.

(ll. 52-54) . . . sought her to wife. And after golden-haired Menelaus he offered the greatest gifts of all the suitors, and very much he desired in his heart to be the husband of Argive Helen with the rich hair.

so this is a combination of the 'menelaus had the nicest shit and was picked either by helen's brothers or her father for her because they wanted nice stuff' and the 'menelaus?? wasnt even??? fucking there??? and aga did??? the flirting for him????' narratives.

i personally take issue with the 'menelaus gave the nicest gift and was chosen' narrative sIMPLY BECAUSE. why would he have the nice stuff?? it's agamemnon's. mycenae is agamemnon's kingdom. not menelaus'. the stuff??? not his. he is a couch-surfing-brother at the moment. he doesnt really have??? anything?? just a CONNECTION to aga. YES if he's picked for helen he will get sparta and all that good stuff. but at the time???? it wouldn't be his. i'm not saying aga wouldn't loan him this cool stuff to show off with, but compared to dio and ody and the others - he actually has nothing. just a brother with a kingdom. at least ody is a king and dio is set to inherit a lot when he comes of age. so this is out, personally for me.

i can honestly dig the 'aga flirts for menelaus' narrative though. that one always cracks me up and is not used enough. we don't know??? why menelaus isnt there??? and aga is??? even though aga is the one with the kingdom and THE JOB??? but it's just funny. just aga tryna hype up his baby bro to the most beautiful woman ever so she'll pick him. that's funny shit. i can dig this version.

next is APOLLODORUS. who doesn't give us much tbh. he just says:

[E.2.15] But the nurse took Agamemnon and Menelaus to Polyphides, lord of Sicyon, who again sent them to Oeneus, the Aetolian. Not long afterwards Tyndareus brought them back again .......... And they became the sons-in-law of Tyndareus by marrying his daughters, Agamemnon getting Clytaemnestra to wife ......... while Menelaus got Helen.

[E.2.16] ... And Menelaus married Helen and reigned over Sparta, Tyndareus having ceded the kingdom to him.

all this really adds is that menelaus becomes king because tyndareus steps down. he doesn't die. which i know a lot of people are '?????' by. but there's nothing here to emphasise how the marriage is arranged or goes down. which gives people a lot to play with. ig.

lastly. is HYGINUS. who says.

TYNDAREUS: Tyndareus, son of Oibalus, by Leda, daughter of Thestius, became father of Clytemnestra and Helen; he gave Clytemnestra in marriage to Agamemnon, son of Atreus. Because of her exceeding beauty many suitors from many states sought Helen in marriage. Tyndareus .... gave Helen leave to put a wreath on whomever she wished to marry. She put it on Menelaus, and Tyndareus gave her to him in marriage and at his death left him his kingdom.

and here is the 'helen chose menelaus' narrative. tyndareus left the choice to her and she put the wreath on his head. so, for this version he was there and it's never stated that she chose him because of his stuff??? (again he doesnt HAVE ANYTHING). so. we can assume she just??? liked him best. YES i am biased to menelaus/helen forever. i adore them. but even then THIS makes the most sense to me. it works with apollodorus' brief account too. and idk hesiod's just. doesn't make sense to me.

BUT these are three ancient accounts that we have. there is no ONE CANON. there is no 'this happened and this didn't' it's what tradition makes sense to you. i've tried to explain why i don't think hesiod's political spin on it would work, but for someone, it might.

in terms of her marriage being forced??? if she chose menelaus, clearly not. if her brothers or her father chose for her?? thats tricky. in the context of her time? helen would have known she would have to marry. she was a princess of a powerful kingdom. it just. would have been. its a tricky grey area.

i will say, though, in terms of her being 'raped and miserable' i do not know a source for that. again, you can interpret Certain Events as her being unhappy. she did leave with another man after all. but i think there's more TO it then that. a lot of events in the HCU are never black and white. and that's kinda the point??? they emphasise choice and fate and control and complexities of life and what we choose to do in it.

MY overall opinion? helen chose menelaus. and for a long time. she was happy. but menelaus is not without his baggage (you don't come out of the house of atreus unscathed). and that would put a strain on any relationship. and aphrodite and fate struck when that couple was at their most vulnerable. and it tore them apart. i dont think they ever stopped loving each other, though. i think deep down they always did and they needed certain events and time to realise it. i think there's a huge gap between the iliad and odyssey 4 in which they heal. they talk and they heal and they learn and they listen and they try to understand. it's why i scream about the menelaiad so much because john barth fills that gap. in a very beautiful and very human way. but he is a reception piece, so i respect not wanting to squeeze him into the narrative.

but this is just my thoughts. and i'm just a menelaus simp on tumblr so like.