#ISU Judging System

[rondocapri]

i missed yall actually

[saucylittlesmile]

I only started watching ice dance after the move to the +5 GOE system - can you share what you mean (I know it was tongue in cheek!) by tech used to mean something?

Oh boy, let’s see if I’ve got it in me to give the kind of long and in-depth answer that I used to without getting too sidetracked lol.

To start off, let me say I think that the ISU is very happy with this turn of events - it’s a return to the shady dealings of the 6.0 with the aura of legitimacy of CoP.

Naturally, my expertise mostly comes from the VM era, which was entirely before the +5/-5 era. While the current shenanigans in ice dance cannot be completely attributed to the change in GOE, it is probably the most obvious and egregious component.

The ISU started the process of dumbing down the tech with slowly removing the compulsory dance, lessening the number of difficult steps and turns in some step sequences, reducing the number of lifts, and increasing the number of ‘choreographic’ elements (which have some basic rules and requirements but overall are based on the judge’s decisions as to what they like).

They also reduced the worth of earning a level - not the literal value, as that can change from season to season and does not matter when comparing across competitions, but between teams at the same competition, whose results could be determined by small increments. For example, a level 4 step sequence used to have a base value of 8.00, and a level 3 was a base value of 6.50 - 1.50 points difference. Now (using Worlds 2023), a base value level 4 step sequence is 8.96 and a true level 3 is 8.20 - only 0.76 points!

Not only has that important earned level been reduced in points, it used to be that both members of the team had to achieve a level 4 to get rewarded a level 4. Now, with each skater being evaluated individually, the point differential can be lessened even more if one of them achieves a higher level.

A 1.5 point base value difference between teams used to be a death knell, if they were considered to be teams fairly equal otherwise in a competition. There was simply no way to make up that deficit, and so it was crucial to be achieving the highest level on every element, to be technically impeccable.

Watching the slow motion fall of the technical side of ice dance was difficult. Watching the ISU create the +5/-5 GOE for the sport on the whole, with no regard for how it would affect ice dance, was downright painful.

In theory, singles and pairs can increase their difficulty to achieve a higher score. Of course, they are still at the mercy of what points their element is worth, but they still have the option. Ice dance, on the other hand is limited by levels - no matter how difficult an element is, they cannot increase their scores beyond a level 4. The GOE descriptions do not give extra for ‘hey that was so hard!’. Teams can get the same, or even more points for elements that just barely fulfill the requirements but are pretty and smooth and fast, as teams that stretch the imagination of what can happen while still following the rules, with great feats of strength or balance or flexibility or edges. It really does not make any difference in the points earned. Twizzles do not earn more points if they do a different edge or more revolutions - they simply fulfill level 4 requirements, or they don’t.

Being hemmed in by technical point restrictions and in which even the difference between levels is minimal, means that the judges’ GOE and PCS is almost the sole deciding factor in any event. The judges may have bullet points for the categories as to what is acceptable, but they also have an incredible amount of leeway and face little to no repercussions to hiking up their points for whatever team or country they want, and the +5/-5 GOE makes it achievable.

One of the reasons I answered this now was the results of the GPF 2023. With the understanding that I have not watched the competition and can’t speak to the details, the points speak for themselves. In particular, the top two teams were deemed to have the same technical content in the free dance. But, the sixth place team was also said to have that same technical content. The base value was the same. And yet, on the basis of GOE and PCS, all from the judges, rather than being in contention for a medal, the sixth place team was deemed to be more than 11 points behind silver. Even taking out PCS (which here was significant) there was still 6.34 points between silver and sixth place - that is over six points in GOE alone and rendered their technical accomplishments moot

To give some comparison, look at Skate Canada 2016. VM lost the FD to Chock/Bates, and almost entirely on lost levels. They had identical levels except for one step sequence and their twizzles. Overall, the judges gave the GOE edge to VM - they beat CB in every element for GOE except for one choreographic element in which they tied, and in the twizzles. (They even had higher GOE on their lower level step sequence, though factoring the level and GOE together gave them fewer points.) VM beat CB soundly in PCS (+2 points!). The overall GOE was simply not enough to make up for amount of points they lost by losing those levels.

VM had the advantage in almost every way. And they still lost the FD, because they had a twizzle error, and a single missed edge or turn in one step sequence.

And that is what I mean by tech used to mean something.

tl;dr - the ISU has created an ice dance world in which the Chosen Team will do very well and it doesn’t matter if they can’t skate.

[myjunkisyuzuruhanyu]

This is just a looong thought on skating and technique...I am sure not everyone will agree with me but does that matter to me? We can agree to disagree bc neither you nor me are judges or the ISU 🤷

No matter what you think about Shoma's jumps especially the "beloved" 4F some ppl get so worked up about today again for the 544373th time in Shoma's career but truly besides skating fans who love the technical side of it and ppl who need something to complain about anyway imo most fans and casual watchers don't really care about technique. And why is that? Because most ppl can't tell jumps apart anyway, because most ppl are not interested in whether it's "perfect" technique or not, and as for Shoma because Shoma had a brilliant clean skate, because Shoma is drawing ppl in with his performance and not with his jumps and bc Shoma definetly deserved 1st place with a margin today. So really what's all the fuss about?

Some haters make it sound like Shoma getting high scores with his skate is the end of skating. I never in my entire fandom experience saw anyone say "oh Shoma or many other skaters with similar problem does not have perfect technique I am torn away by the sport because of it"...ppl come for the pretty, for the performance to the music, and yes jumps are cool and all but this is not what makes ppl stay in the fandom or get attached to skaters! Am I wrong?

Shoma is right when he said that the emphasis nowadays is too much on jumps and skating isn't this popular anymore in the world and he wants to put more emphasis on the artistry because artistic performances draw ppl to the sport. Frankly skaters not making it through their programs without falls or skate without emotion won't help making skating more popular. In the 6.0 system no one cared for the "right" technique of the jumps or underrotations it was all about the performance and if you landed your jumps. I don't pretend to understand the 6.0 system and I also don't want it back bc this system is fairer but tbh technique even today is really not the most important part of this sport imo. If some are keen on perfect technique then let's make a jumping contest and grade who has the best technique?

Ask yourself when you watched skating for the first time, did you care for the technical part or for the artistry? Did you like a skater because of their performance first or because of their technical stuff? Could you tell the jumps apart? Could you see what is UR and not? I for sure did neither know nor cared about anything technial. Did it make you NOT watch the sport bc someone had a "bad" technique? I guess not.

Ofc it's still a sport and jumps are an important part of it and ofc you have to evaluate them in a way and yes admittedly scoring is very controversial a lot of times and ISU needs reforms and more accountability of judges BUT it doesn't mean the wrong ppl win. Do I agree on all scores Shoma or anyone else gets? No I don't, but anyone seeing the protocols sees that judges aren't exactly agreeing on everything either. There is still a lot of subjectivity and anyone denying the subjective part is delusional, but there are rules in place and Shoma is neither breaking any rules nor does he judge himself and tbh if ISU would have put an emphasis on jumping technique they would never have validated Shoma's 4F in the first place bc it's not like he was never jumping it like this, tbh it actually was even much worse. This is Shoma's 9th season and the 9th season Shoma's 4F was ratified as such...for me at this point the same and same and same discussions about technique are really the least important part of skating...and it looks like ISU thinks just the same oops

So how about enjoying ice ART skating! Like the German word "Eiskunstlauf" puts the emphasis on ART in skating and I think the full package with artistry and jumps is more important than perfect technique.

And Shoma has the full package. He has the difficulty, he has the jumps even if not with "perfect" technique, he emotes to the audience, he makes ppl feel and get attached to skating, he has great deep edges, skates at lightning speed, he's a king at upper body movement and so much more. He is a brilliant skater and ppl who fail to see it just miss out on a wonderful skater. No one says Shoma's perfect but for me personally he comes pretty close. 😌

[tutuandscoot]

hi! i am a new ice dance fan and was wondering if you could explain why everyone is saying the sport is going downhill?? just trying to learn!!!

Oh boy…. That’s a long story.

The quick version, as pertains to ice dance:

There used to be 3 segments of competition: compulsory dance, original (then short, then rhythm) dance, and the free dance

In the 70’s,80’s,90’s (and earlier?) teams would compete at least 2 compulsory dancers, then OD and FD. It was cut back to one CD around 2000- so eg the 2002 Olympics was one CD, OD, FD. After many scandals relating to judging and corruption, the ISU got rid of the 6.0 scoring system and brought in what is used now known as the Code of points.

Through 2000-2010, teams competed the CD, OD and FD. After the 2010 season (where VM won olys and worlds) the ISU abandoned the CD from senior competition bc ‘it was boring’ and ‘took up too much time at competitions’

As a compromise they rejigged the 2nd portion of competition- renaming it the ‘short dance’ which was very strict and technical- each year there was a chosen rhythm and set pattern dance within their own choreography every team had to perform- so it at least had a compulsory portion where every team was compared directly against each other. After 2018 (when vm won again) they renamed it the ‘Rhythm dance’ and since then have slowly been loosening to rules and requirements to make it less objective- so essentially judges didn’t have to justify their scoring and could just award what they liked. There is also a scoring component called GOE- grade of execution which was increased from 3 to 5 (plus or minus- a score which is added or deducted from each element base value)- this part of the score was given much more weight and priority so essentially a team could perform a fairly easy lift which isn’t worth many points, but the judge decides they really like the lift and can make up that teams points with a high GOE mark if they choose to. And vise versa- give a team low GOE to knock them down even if they are technically strong.

After 2022 olys the set/compulsory pattern was removed all together- so there is no part of ice dance competition now that offers direct comparison. Judges don’t have to reward the actual best team‼️This is where you get fans complaining about teams that are not technically strong scoring well/winning bc the judges “like” them or there is some other (bribe/political) incentive to reward that team.

It is impossible I think to get rid of all corruption in skating, but the 2007-2018 era/s at least had *some accountability (don’t get me started on VM vs DW)

The announcement yesterday that there is not even a solid set ‘theme’ or rhythm going forward (aLeDgEdLy) is infuriating. Add to that that there is no traditional, classical dance left in ice dance- no ballroom, latin, classical ballet. Die hard fans love compulsory dances like the golden waltz and tango romantica bc when a team ( VM) does it well it is ice dance at its purist.

The isu is essentially telling us what is good when we all damn know it’s not good. They are taking us for fools, they are pandering to tik tok audiences bc they know people don’t have the patience or interest to watch actual skating competitions and think they will get audiences back by “modernising” the sport bc people these days can’t relate to tangos and waltz.. which is BS bc back in the 80’s people weren’t getting around waltzing and tangoing at clubs and parties- this is classic dance and art that actually works on ice bc it is adapted from ballroom dance. Not sliding on the ice breakdancing to Party Rock Anthem!🤮

I’ll stop there bc this is getting long and blogs like @macaroni-rascal @anewbeginningagain etc can explain the technical stuff much better than me

[ravenonice]

Scoring in Yuri on Ice

or the IJS Scoring System prior to 2018

I made a guide like this before but I wanted to rewrite it since I found some flaws and want to add more resources and stuff for both YoI fanfic authors and fans who just want to understand scoring in figure skating a little better maybe :)

Disclaimer: I am only human. This guide is most likely flawed. But the ISU doesn't seem to understand their own scoring most of the time either so does it really matter? Please tell me if I have wrong information on anything or explained it wrong/confusingly. ^^

The International Judging System (IJS) has been used in figure skating and ice dance competitions since 2004. It replaced the prior 6.0 system which awarded two marks on a scale to 0 to 6, one for technical merit and one for presentation.

Some of the "older" skaters in YoI, e.g. Viktor, Chris and Yuuri, still skated under the 6.0 at some point. If you place the start of the story in 2015/16, then Viktor skated under the 6.0 for his whole Junior career and the switch was made around when he started skating in seniors.

But we are not here to talk about the 6.0.

Scores given within the IJS consist of 2 parts: The Technical Element Score (TES) and Program Component Score (PCS), which are then combined to make up the Total Segment Score (TSS).

A score sheet from a competition (in this case short program) looks like this:

So let's break that down, shall we?

Technical Element Score (TES)

The TES is about the technical elements in a program, such as jumps, spins, step and choreographic sequences.

In the Short Program there are 7 required elements which can be skated in whatever order:

A double or triple Axel

one triple or quad jump

a jump combination

one spin with a flying entry

a camel or sit spin with just one change of foot

a spin combination with just one change of foot

a step sequence

Single jumps don't recieve any points at all, but do count as a performed element. That means if a skater "pops" a jump, meaning they open up to early and only perform a single rotation, they can't just try again.

The short program is 2min 40 secs long +/- 10 secs

The Free Skate is more...well...free. But there are also restrictions.

A total of 12 elements have to be performed:

7 jump elements. One has to be an Axel jump.

Three spins. One has to be a combination, one has to be a single position and one has to have a flying entrance

One step sequence

One choreographic sequence

Different to the short program, you get points for single jumps. Though those are hardly ever performed on purpose.

The Free Skate is 4 minutes and 20 secs long +/- (now it's 4 min).

Every Element has a Base Value (BV). That meas the performed element is guaranteed those points minus deductions and plus the Grade of Execution (GOE).

Base Values

In Figure Skating there are 6 jumps which can be performed with up to 4 roations at the time being. I will list them with the according base values and with the according abbreviations.

Toe Loop:

1T =0.4pt - 2T =1.3pt- 3T = 4.3pt - 4T = 10.3pt

Salchow:

1S = 0.4pt - 2S = 1.3pt - 3S = 4.4pt - 4S = 10.5pt

Loop:

1Lo = 0.5pt - 2Lo = 1.8pt - 3Lo = 5.1pt - 4Lo = 12pt

Flip:

1F = 0.5pt - 2F = 1.9pt - 3F =5.3pt - 4F= 12.3pt

Lutz:

1Lz = 0.6pt - 2Lz = 2.1pt - 3Lz = 6pt - 4Lz =13.6pt

Axel:

1A =1.1pt - 2A= 3.3pt - 3A = 8.5pt - 4A = 15pt

Those values are for prior to 2018 and correct in the context of YoI, the Base Value of the quads and 3A are now a little lower.

-> Why is the Axel worth so much more?

Unlike the other jumps, a single Axel has 1 1/2 rotations, since, other than the all other jumps, it has a forward take off, but is landed backwards.

As of now, the quad Axel has only been landed succesfully by Ilia Malinin, a 18 y/o skater from the USA. He landed it for the first time in competition and got it ratified at the beginning of the 22/23 season at the US Classic, a challenger event that was freaking geoblocked so no one outside the US fucking saw history being made...

Prior to that, Yuzuru Hanyu trained the 4A intensely, and landed it in competition on two feet at the Japanese National Championships in 2021, but failed to get it ratified internationally at the 2022 Olympics because he fell.

But, as far as YoI canon goes, not even Viktor jumps a quad Axel. The extra half rotation makes that jump extremly difficult and was deemed impossible for a very long time. And while I encourage you to use the quad Axel as a story point and a goal for one of the characters, and think it can be very powerful, I highly discourage you from putting a quad Axel in your story lightly.

Euler Jump (a transitional half jump used in combinations to change the edge for take off): 1 EU 0.5 points

-> in YoI that would still be called a single Loop (because thats what it is basically...) and be marked as 1Lo! They changed the name in 2018.

I will try to make another post about the different jumps soon, but for now here is a guide for telling apart jumps!

Combination jumps:

For jump combinations the base values are simply combined. E.g.: A 3F+1Lo+3S combination has a base value of 10.1 points.

Reduction of Base Value:

An underrotated jump (<) will receive 70% of the Base Value, a downgraded jump (<<) receives the Base Value of the jump with one less rotation. If I am not mistaken the 70% Base Value rule also applies to jumps with a wrong take off edge (marked with "e"). Someone please corect me if I'm wrong, I couldn't find the information anywhere...

Repetition:

In the Short Program, each jump can only be executed once. That means that if a skater jumps for example a triple toe loop as a solo jump and as part of the combination, the second jump won't receive any points.

Further in the Free Skate, the "Zayak rule" is to be observed, meaning that from all triple and quad jumps, only two can be executed twice. The repeated jump has to be in combination! For example having a 4T and 4T+2T in your program is valid. But if you have two solo 4T the second one gets marked +REP and receives 70% of the base value.

This also means that if a skater falls on that combination with the repeated jump, it's extra bad. Because that means -1pt for the fall, negative GOE of course and the jump is only worth 70%...tough.

If a skater repeats a jump, it will often be refered to as "zayaked".

Jumps of the same type but with different amounts of rotation are not considered the same jump.

Extra jump elements exceding the 3 in the Short and 7 in the Free don't receive any points.

Spins:

For Spins there are 4 basic positions: Upright, Layback, Sit and Camel. A Combination Spin must include an upright, a sit and a Camel position.

You can get awarded up to a Level 4 for a Spin, depending on various features such as a difficult entry, difficult change of position, visible increase of speed....

I will explain Spins and Spin Levels further in another post but here is a (very long...) list of values for different spins:

Upright Spin (USp):

USpB 1pt - USp1 1.2pt - USp2 1.5pt - Usp3 1.9pt - USp4 2.4

Flying Upright Spin (FUSp):

FUSpB 1.5pt - FUSp1 1.7pt - FUSp2 2pt - FUSp3 2.4pt - FUSp 4 2.9pt

Upright Spin with change of foot (CUSp):

CUSpB 1.5pt - CUSp1 1.7pt - CUSp2 2pt - CUSp3 2.4pt - CUSp4 2.9pt

Layback Spin (LSp):

LSpB 1.2pt - LSp1 1.5 - LSp2 - 1.9 - LSp3 2.4 - LSp4 2.7pt

Flying Layback Sping (FLSp):

FLSpB 1.7pt - FLSp1 2pt - FLSp2 2.4pt - FLSp3 2.9pt - FLSp4 3.2 pt

Layback Spin with change of foot (CLSp):

CLSpB 1.7pt - CLSp1 2pt - CLSp2 2.4pt - CLSp3 2.9pt - CLSp4 3.2pt

Camel Spin (CSp):

CSpB 1.1pt - CSp1 1.4pt - CSp2 1.8pt - CSp3 2.3pt - CSp4 2.6pt

Flying Camel Spin (FCSp):

FCSpB 1.6pt - FCSP1 1.9pt - FCSp2 2.3pt - FCSp3 2.8pt - FCSp4 3.2pt

Camel Spin with a change of foot (CCSp):

CCSpB 1.7pt - CCSp1 2pt - CCSp2 2.3pt - CCSp3 2.6pt - CCSp4 3.2pt

Sit Spint (SSp):

SSpB 1.1pt - SSp1 1.3pt - SSp2 1.6pt - SSp3 2.1pt - SSp4 2.5pt

Flying Sit Spin (FSSp):

FSSpB 1.7pt - FSSp1 2.0pt - FSSp2 2.3pt - FSSp3 2.6pt - FSSp4 3pt

Sit Spin with a change of foot (CSSp):

CSSpB 1.6pt - CSSp1 1.9pt - CSSp2 2.3pt - CSSp3 2.6pt - CSSp4 3pt

Spin Combination (CoSp):

CoSpB 1.5pt - CoSp1 1.7pt - CoSp2 2pt - CoSp3 2.5pt - CoSp4 3pt

Spin Combination with a change of foot (CCoSP):

CCoSpB 1.7pt - CCoSp1 2pt - CCoSp2 2.5pt - CCoSp3 3pt - CCoSp4 3.5pt

If you want to see good spins in men's skating, I highly recomend taking a look at Roman Spindovsky...ehm I mean Sadovsky ;D Here an example of a level 4 change of foot combination spin from him:

Step Sequence

A step sequence should have little two footed skating, a variety of different difficult turns and steps and cover the whole ice surface. Just as for spins, levels from base to 4 are awared depending on several factors that I will try to explain in a future post.

But for you to get an idea of what a masterful Level 4 step sequence looks like, here is the step sequence from Yuzuru Hanyu's Rondo:

As for Base Value:

Basic Level: 1.5 points

Level 1: 1.8 points

Level 2: 2.6 points

Level 3: 3.3 points

Level 4: 3.9 points

Choreographic Sequence:

The Choreographic Sequence is only performed in the Free Skate, and includes choreographic elements such as spirals, lunges... I will also make a post introducing different choreo elements in (hopefully) the near future, but for now have this Choreo Sequence from Deniss Vasiljevs as an example!

Watch the video from 1:25min to roughly 2:00min (or watch the whole thing I highly recomend :D). Using this as an example out of spite because the judges are stupid and inavlidated it for some reason...idiots...

As for Base Value, there are no different levels for choreographic Sequences so, very short "list":

ChSq 2pt

Grade of Execution (GOE):

The GOE ranged from -3 to +3 prior to 2018. The panel of judges awards GOE depending on how well executed an element is.

But how is GOE awarded?

Both positive and negative aspects of a performed element are considered and then added in the end for the final GOE.

Jumps:

To receive +1 GOE, 2 of the following bullets must be achieved, for +2, 4 bullets and for +3 6 or more.

unexpected/creative/difficult entry (An example for that would be a back counter into an axel jump)

clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding the element (My favorite example in Yuzuru's Twizzle exit from a 3A)

varied position in the air/delay in rotation (Remember when Yuri Plisetsky raised his arms during his jumps in the Grand Prix Final? That's what they mean with varied position in the air. Delay in rotation is pretty self explainatory I think. The skater needs longer to rotate, making it more difficult)

good height and distance

good extension on landing/ creative exit

good flow

effortless throughout

element matched to the musical structure (I just love when a skater lands a jump right when the music pics up mmmh chefs kiss)

Negative GOE is given for the following errors (It's too much to write down so here is a screenshot from the ISU Guidelines):

Spins:

To receive +1 GOE, 2 of the following bullets must be achieved, for +2, 4 bullets and for +3 6 or more.

good speed or acceleration during spin

ability to center a spin quickly

balanced rotations in all positions

clearly more than required number of revolutions (which is 3 is think)

good, strong position(s) (including height and air/landing position in flying spins)

creativity and originality

good control throughout all phases

element matched to the musical structure

Negative GOE is given for the following errors:

Traveling refers to a skater moving across the ice during a spin instead of staying in roughly the same space.

Step Sequence:

To receive +1 GOE, 2 of the following bullets must be achieved, for +2, 4 bullets and for +3 6 or more.

good energy and execution

good speed or acceleration during sequence

use of various steps during the sequence

deep clean edges (including entry and exit of all turns)

good control and commitment of the whole body maintaining accuracy of steps

creativity and originality

effortless throughout

element enhances the musical structure

Negative GOE is given for the following errors:

Choreographic Sequence:

To receive +1 GOE, 2 of the following bullets must be achieved, for +2, 4 bullets and for +3 6 or more.

good flow, energy and execution

good speed or acceleration during sequence

good clarity and precision

good control and commitment of whole body

creativity and originality

effortless throughout

reflecting concept/character of the program

element enhances the musical structure

Negative GOE is given for the following errors:

Calculating GOE:

The Panel of judges usually consists of 9 judges. The lowest and highest GOE mark are cut, then the average of the remaining 7 is used to determine the GOE points for that jump.

For example:

A skater executed a Triple Lutz with a base value of 6 points. The GEO marks from the judges were as followed: +2, +2, +3, +2, +1, +1, +2, +2, +2. The highest and the lowest mark get cut. The average of the remaining 7 is 1.86. To calculate the GEO you now take the base value and do the following: 6 x 18.6% = 1.116 so about 1.12 points. The total points awarded for that jump would be: 7.12points

For combinations the base value of the hightest valued jumps is used to determine GOE, not the combined base value of the jumps.

As for step and choreographic sequences you multiply the average by 0.5 to get the GEO.

Yay! Maths :D

Highlight Distribution:

Jumps performed in the second half of the program are awarded a 1.1 multiplier of the the base value. E.g.: A 3A performed in the second half has a base value of 8.8 points.

Yuuri takes advantage of that a lot.

Prior to 2018 there was no limit on how backloaded (term used to describe programms with a lot of jumps in the second half) a program could be. Technically all jumps could be executed in the second half. However that left programs empty and boring in the first half since the skaters were basically just stalling time.

Now the multiplier is only applied to the first jump in the second half of the short and to the first 3 in the second half of the free. I am not opposed to that rule. The ISU made a rule that made sense for once

Deductions:

Of course, points are deducted for mistakes or other rule violations.

Deductions are:

Falls:

First two falls -1pt each. Third and fourth fall -2pt each. -3pt each for each fall after that.

Interruptions:

If the performance is interrupted by the skater, they lose -1pt for >10 but <20 secs, -2pt for >20 but <30 secs and -3 for >30 but <40. -5pt if the program isn't resumed withing 3 minutes.

Time violation:

-1pt per 5sec (program either too long or too short)

Costume/prop violations:

-1pt

A costume violation would for example be feathers (real feathers are prohibited), or if, for women, a boob falls out or something.

Props aren't allowed all together.

Part of the costume falls off on the ice:

-1pt

Somersault type jumps (aka Backflip):

-2pt

Late start:

Skater doesn't take starting position within 30 secs -1pt

Program Compoment Score (PCS):

The PCS used to be about the 5 following categories and is awarded by each judge on a scale from 0 - 10 in steps of 0.25. 5.00 Would be "average". As you may already be able to tell...this is not a very reliable way to judge this. Yeah...

Skating Skills:

Basically how good a skaters skating is. Can they skate with power and ease both forwards and backwards as well as clockwise and counter-clockwise? How clean and clear are the curves (edges) over the ice?

A skater should look effortless in their movement. Quick and easy, flowing over the ice with soft knees and ankles.

Their skating shouldn't be scratchy and noisy, resulting from pushing with the toe rather than the side of the blade.

Something you will often hear fans complain about or praise are edges. A Figure skate blade has two edges, outside and inside, and one sign of good skating skills is being able to go down deep on them. Look at Ice dancers Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir for example. Edges so deep the side of the boot almost touches the ice. Beautiful!

Transitions:

The "in between" technical elements. You don't want to just skate between elements, you want to tie the program together with linking steps. Skaters idealy incorperate different steps and turns to make the programm seem seamless. You want there to be little (visible) prep time for the next element.

I will make another post regarding such steps and turns.

Performance:

This is one of the categories that is heavily dependent on the judges personal preference.

In this category skaters are judged based on their, well, performance... Are they emotionally, physically and mentally involved? Do they project the entire audience? Do they have good ice presence?

In the case of Yuri on Ice: this is where all the Katsudon, waterfalls, grandpas etc. come in. Yuuri seduced Viktor for those sweet PCS points haha xD

Composition:

In this category the placing of the elements across the ice surface are judged.

Idealy a skater should use as much of the entire ice surface as possible.

Then there's also questions such as if the spacing of the elements etc. has some sort of purpose. Is there a story told or idea conveyd? Does the movement match the phrasing of the music?

For this category, having a good choreographer comes in very handy ;)

Interpretation:

Again, heavily judge dependant...

Is the skater performing with their soul? Are they skating with music in the background or are they skating to the music, their movement matching the beats in it?

This is the "music" that Yuuri emits when skating according to Viktor! So this is something he is very good at and should receive high points in...if the judges actually do that is another question...

Calculation of PCS:

Very easy this time! It's just the average of the individual scores given by the judges. For the Free Skate the score is factored by 2.0, meaning it's doubled to balance it a little with the TES.

Further Resources:

Now this looks very overwhelming! But here are some pages to help you!

SkatingScores:

You can use this blank IJS sheet to easily calculate scores using the abbreviations I used in this post! They also are the best and biggest available data base for scores in figure skating and you can look up competitons and skaters here!

ISU Results:

If you want to find score sheets for a specific competition you want to reference, you can also quickly google "ISU results (competition)". For example, Grand Prix Final 2015:

There you can access the judges scores for the competion as pdfs.

So you want to watch figure skating?:

This blog is really helpful. They have various guides to figure skating as well, but be aware that they are of course up to date with the newest rules. But they also have a handbook with terms you will often hear and may want to use!

Further Notes:

Scoring in figure skating is highly controversial and in conversation with fans you will often hear terms such as over- and underscoring.

There is corruption, there is favoritism...you name it, figure skating probably has it...

If you want your characters to be upset about something in the sport, scoring is one of your safest bets.

You can have Yuuri's fans and probably Viktor too, be outraged by Yuuri's too low PCS, or the low GOE on his step sequence. Maybe they even rated that one a level 3 instead of the usual 4? Lot's of possibilities for frustration...

Another thing that is frustrating for Yuuri in particular is that jumps are worth so much more and make up a big chunk of the TES.

He is known for his intricate step sequences. But what does that matter if he can't get more than 5.4 points for it? And you rarely get full +3 GOE! The step sequence, which is such a vital part of a figure skating program and show cases such a varried skill set, is worth roughly the same as a triple flip max...

Sure there is the PCS, but here the judges are often biased, or simply don't know how to award points. It sometimes appears to be a bit arbitrary. Skaters who do a shit tone of cross overs suddenly get skating skill scores in the 9 point + range... It's bizarre.

Anyway...I hope you enjoyed this guide and find it usefull! I will try to get the other parts to this out as soon as I can!

And if you read this far: thank you <3 Have a lovely rest of your day and have fun writing!

[sunskate]

honestly, I saw Fear/Gibson live last year and I’d call them incompetent. Their skating is so small, the curves on the ice so much shallower than a team of that standing should be capable of. Guignard/Fabbri covered twice as much ice with half the effort. People pick on Lilah and act like Lewis is the second coming of Dean/Moir/Cizeron but he’s not *that* much better at the actual skating, he is visibly better but still not brilliant. But he moves like a floor dancer and that covers many sins. I don’t think it’s some grand conspiracy to elevate them - the Brits might have a rogue judge but they are not a powerhouse federation. They can’t compel whole panels to fall in line the way Russia, USA, France and Canada can. I think it’s a combination of a) Europe not wanting a North American monopoly while P/C are on hiatus and Russia remain banned and b) the ISU understanding they’re popular and they’re desperate for popularity. Casual audiences respond to them, I’ve seen it. They’re fun, they’re good looking, they’re easily digestible. I have a theory they’ll be dropped from serious contention once P/C return and Lajoie/Lagha are Canadian #1 once the older teams retire. Europe will then have their champions back. L/L can do the fun populist stuff but skate it well (their lyrical FD is beautiful but it’s programs like Thriller and Rio that should be their calling card going forward to set themselves apart - they’re aggressive, not pretty, don’t fall into the trap H/D did and try to contain the power). I wish Tessa was mentoring L/L instead.

i think we just disagree on that word incompetent - they're working hard and have improved. but it makes my heart sink when crowds go for the easy and gimmicky. they probably will get an ovation next week like Tessa said. but i still think that program is cheap, and if the judges go for it too, the system is garbage. because the skating and the program don't warrant top 5 in the world

i looked at F/G's IGs because i had to question whether they're popular. i don't really know of many current fans of theirs. Lilah has 15.6K followers. their team account 10.2K, Lewis 12.9K. compare that to Madi C 118K, Gabi P 173K, Isabella Flores 194K. team Koko has more than Lilah and Lewis. but it's true, i haven't found a European ice dance team who has more followers besides P/C. but idgi - it's nothing to stake the future of ice dance on your continent on. the crowds in the building like F/G, but is that translating outside, where most of the fans are? idk

for me, it's about how they're scoring consistently above teams who skate more beautifully, with power and artistry. skating with true quality is harder, or everyone would do it. hitting big accents or punching to the beat is easy. skating so that your line and entire body is expressive is hard. IAM is good at disguising weaknesses in their choreo - it's smart, but when it's this successful, i think it's bad for ice dance and feels fake

i love LaLa - they can do it all. i think it's how hard they can go at a Thriller program and be dazzlingly sharp and fast and also make you cry with an expressive program that makes them great. i'm so excited to see them again

[yuzu-all-the-way]

Do you think we'll ever know why Yuzu was consistently underscored in the last few years of competing? Like, I can't fathom why they would do that - he's so well loved, so surely scoring him accurately would just draw more people toward the sport to see him? Honestly I believe that if he hadn't attempted the 4A at the Olympics that he could have won if he was scored fairly. Having a 3x Olympic Gold medalist would have made such a buzz in the news which would be good publicity, no? So... idk. I'm confused by the whole thing and my heart goes out to Yuzu for putting up with so much for so long.

Hi, anon! Oh, this is such a long story. I'll try to keep it as short as possible and make it comprehensible.

Officially, there most likely will never be an explanation given, it's just not how the sports' world works. There is no accountability since the "behind the scenes" is mostly a power play between several figure skating federations (USA, Russia, JSF - but that's a whole other story), lots of politicking going on.

However, the fans and those who know figure skating have become aware of Yuzu being underscored over the years. There were a hell lot of discussions about that too, but they literally led nowhere - there were a lot of fights and Fanyus accused of being irrational and delusional.

The narrative goes something like this:

Yuzu came into the senior competitions as a very successful junior and he actively improved his technical as well as his presentation components - he was constantly on the rise winning a world medal in his 2nd year as senior, winning everything there was to win in the 2013-2014 season - GPF, Worlds, OLYMPIC GOLD, except 4CC (I don't think he participated in 2014), achieving incredible scores at 2015 NHK Trophy and 2015 Barcelona, winning a second world title in 2017, winning a second OLYMPIC GOLD in 2018... and finally winning 4CC in 2020.

There is a huge discrepancy in scores that occurred after 2015 GPF. Yuzu was constantly improving, yet his scores don't reflect that at all - they look like he remained through his entire amateur career at the same level as he was in 2015 or that he became worse - which is a blatant lie.

Frankly, when he broke consecutive records in 2015, ISU and the feds became aware that he was untouchable. There were skaters younger than Yuzu who were bringing quads to the game, skaters like Jin Boyang, Shoma Uno and Nathan Chen. But their skating skills could NEVER get close to Yuzu's, and Yuzu was also bringing new jumps into his arsenal - 4Lo, 4Lz. USA having lots of power, started pushing Chen as the quad king and Chen was supposed to be Yuzu's rival, narrative woven like this until Yuzu turned pro.

Anyway, Chen's scores were rising although there was barely any visible improving seen in his skating, while Yuzu, obviously constantly improving, if he had the smallest mistake he was penalized. The penalizations became greater when the scoring system changed from +/-3 GOE to +/-5 GOE because there could be greater manipulation of scores.

If Yuzu was getting +3 GOE for a 3A prior to 2018/2019, he was supposed to get +5 GOE for the same jump starting with 2018/2019, but that barely happened. The average GOE for Yuzu's 3A on the international stage stayed around +3. So, on paper, Yuzu seemed to be getting worse. Not to mention the PCS... which Yuzu openly talked about after turning pro, he was no longer awarded almost perfect PCS although he kept improving.

About Beijing 2022, Yuzu was never meant to win the gold as set by the ISU. Had he went clean, his Rondo probably would've been around the same as his last WR (lower than 112 points) because of literal judging corruption, and Chen would've still had impossible inflation and set a WR.

I won't go deeper into Beijing, it was Yuzu's choice to continue skating while remaining true to himself, it was his choice to challenge the 4A, it was his choice to do everything as it went. And I respect that because there's nothing more worthy of admiration than a person who remains true to himself while undergoing abuse (because, in the end, that's what it was). He came out on the other side stronger and better than any other skater and his pro career already shows it.

ISU seems to not care that figure skating is dying, they are not doing anything to improve the circumstances in which this sport is "developing". They lowered the PC components from 5 to 3, they want to let Russia back in the game, they push quads in juniors, they continue white-washing the whole sport (look at the countries of the skaters who were given the ISU awards).

In a nutshell, Yuzu's competitive career was hell, he had numerous injuries that threated his skating life, he continued, he was getting underscored, he continued. He did try to play ISU's "jumping competition" game for a while - Aoi Honoo III reveals that - with Origin. He didn't like that and his scores didn't improve even while playing by ISU's rules. He went back to the programs that won him 2015 NHK, 2015 GPF and 2018 Olympics gold... he was awarded just a tiny bit more than his previous SP world record. So, he continued skating in the hopes of landing that 4A. He challenged it until the end of his amateur career. He showed the best he could at Beijing... but it's over and done with now. Now he continues challenging that jump, but for himself, because it's his DREAM.

Now, we focus on Yuzu's pro career - he continues changing what figure skating means. If Prologue wasn't enough to show that he is so much BETTER than when he competed, GIFT and NS will definitely cement that in. Yuzu continues pursuing his ideal figure skating, hard tech content, beautiful skating skills, all possible because of hard work and training.

FORGOT TO SAY:

ISU did use Yuzu, they used him until July 19th 2022. While we were anxiously waiting for the 2022-2023 GP assignments, ISU put the tickets on sale for all the GP stages minus GPF. There were people who went in blindly to buy tickets because Yuzu's photo was on several ticket sites (for example, the Finland GP had Yuzu on their site). People were going to buy GPF tickets, too without any concrete assignments.

Yuzu announced him turning pro in July, the Yuzu fans who had bought tickets to see Yuzu found a way to sell them or ended up not going to the GPs. ISU knew Yuzu brought in the crowds, they knew he was the favourite. They did not promote his skating, they promoted him PARTICIPATING in competitions.

[wtficedance]

Thanks for answering my ask- I was the one who asked about Ben Agosto. So basically if he's "supporting the narrative" he's fudging stuff like whether Lilah actually deserves her scores in favor of spinning what the ISU's peddling. Isn't that kind of bullshit then? He's looking for ways to justify what they're doing, even if it's really thin - like Charlene's back flexiblity vs. Lilah's skating - and doesn't account for what's actually happening? Thanks for explaining that - I can smell the spin in what he's saying and now I see why - he's not good as say Mark Hanretty at walking the line

Q #215:

Combining with another similar ask as well for conciseness:

“Don't you find it ironic that he can't say the truth because it'll "undermine viewer confidence in the sport"? Like you're literally saying that there's a lack of integrity in it. Viewers should not have confidence that it's a fair sport, basically lol”

Hi anons,

The short answer is yes it is ironic and of all of the things I truly do love about ice dance (the really cool artistic inspiration, the creativity, imagining new ways to incorporate movement, etc.) the integrity and fairness of the sport has never been notable. All sports which involve a judged component (even in the forms of an umpire/ref/linesmen etc.) will have controversies about officials inserting themselves into the game and affecting results, but sports which are purely judged will have significantly more of it.

This is especially true for ice dance since there’s less obvious mistakes that someone who’s never seen the sport before (falls!, clear stumbles, losing grip on your partner) can pick out and understand that it’s playing a role in the score. It’s why twizzles went from being a very insignificant part of the sport to its more talked about element, because while something like ONLY pirouetting isn’t obvious, being slow, not covering ice, falling out of rotation, lack of sync, are very noticeable no matter your experience watching ice dance. Meanwhile, step sequences are a huge part of ice dance scoring but apart from obvious mistakes like stumbles and falls, it can be hard for a first time viewer to understand why they're scored the way they are.

So yes, commentators have to choose whether they're going to fully buy into the narrative (more of a Ted strategy, and also one taken more by commentators who don't have ice dance background but are former singles skaters) or whether they're going to go more with the half-picture but mostly true lines. Because--at least on English-speaking channels--unless its homer/"we were robbed!" comments, people generally tone down the "this result is bullshit and actually the team who placed first shouldn't have even podiumed" stuff. ESPECIALLY, when its at a relatively low stakes event like a GP vs. the Olympics or Worlds where that at least generates interest/potential viewership.

But generally, post-SLC, you see a large reluctance of commentators to really play into the controversy. My general hypothesis is that it is because 2 things: 1) an increased awareness that it will be weaponized to say that FS isn't "a rEaL sPorT" and 2) because of the number of old timers who attribute it to IJS/the system. Elaborating on 2), a lot of the immediate reaction after Adelina won in Sochi by FS commentators was that she won correctly within IJS, and that under 6.0 Yuna would've won. Kurt Browning in particular comes to mind. Which... Adelina did not win because of IJS. She had a level 4 step sequence despite tripping, virtually tied Yuna in PCS, beat Carolina Kostner in SS, and got away with quite a few UR calls. All of those things SHOULD have been punished if IJS had been correctly applied. There's a tendency for people who dislike IJS to blame the system itself. A lot of it in ice dance comes back to not just IJS but also "well if we still had the compulsory dance" but I'm going to be quite honest and say a lot of the time teams who were in fact NOT the strongest skaters won the CD. AND while I fully concur that too much of the score in ice dance is now choreographic elements and step sequences have been devalued, a team like F/G should still not be in the top 8 if they were scored correctly in the current system.

All of this to say. Yes, F/G's results this season are rather absurd, they are not reflective of the skating on the ice, they've been way too high in the context of their ability and the timing of the quad, some commentators have been significantly more effective at addressing the absurdity of the scoring, and that their rise isn't particularly unique because ice dance has always been particularly susceptible to narratives and egregious politicking. And particularly this year, there's some interesting dynamics about pushing European teams and Russia as the traditional ice dance power being absent. Which I don't think will benefit F/G in the future if a particular team comes back.

But, in the end while I do wish the scoring was more fair, it is a reality I have come to accept because I don't watch competitions to see who wins but to enjoy some truly creative and special programs.

P.S. agreed on Mark :)

[the-fiction-will-knit-the-real]

If any of yall are interested in general hobby drama, figure skating is the only interest I have where being judgemental as hell is required - it's a judged sport, after all. And also strictly gender-normy past the point where my Catholic-raised ass EVER found it comfortable. This is pretty minor drama, too, but I am connecting some dots here, so have a little writeup. As a treat.

The figure skating international regulating body (the ISU) released this upcoming season's point value scales (i.e. the base point values each of the elements in a skating program are worth, such as jumps and spins and step sequences). For the first time ever, they are including point values and rules for quintuple jumps (5 revolutions. Absolutely unnecessary and uncalled for. I still barely support the existence of quads! *old man yells at cloud*)

No one has ever done a quint, to be fair, but given that one particular asshole-ish* 19 year old skater has been landing quad axels routinely and with ease for a while now, and has been saying that he's working on quints (also that gay men are routinely scored higher than straight men, and that's *obviously* why he has trouble winning events... 👀), here goes, I guess

This follows the ISU decision earlier this summer to allow backflips in competition, after a men's world medalist decided last season to do one in his program anyway and just eat the point deduction. They were banned because they are dangerous AF if done even remotely incorrectly (and also - arguably - so they could discriminate against a black female skater in the early 90s who did them fantastically), and now many people are worried that allowing the backflip will cause younger skaters to try to do them in order to get more points, and potentially hurt themselves in the process

the ISU's entire modus operandi for the past decade or more has been "Let's try everything we can to make this incredibly elitist sport popular again! Besides actually punishing people who cheat. Or fixing abuse issues within the culture as a whole. Or supporting skaters who don't want to perform to strict gender normative standards." Currently it seems they're following this approach by specifically setting up rules so.specific current top athletes can break records or otherwise make headlines (headlines = people outside the tiny, tiny fanbase might hear about it and start watching)

So we'll see how this goes. Ultimately I need to stop watching this sport, it's uncomfortable as hell to watch sometimes and, even if certain systemic issues in the sport are slowly getting better, the genderedness of everything really is not

*I do feel a *little* unfair calling Ilia an asshole, I do think he's more just a cocky teenager with some growing up to do, as he's had some very genuine moments and does seem to be improving. But they should really be paying someone to forcibly shut Ilia's mouth sometimes, goddamn

[thegirlwhorideslikeasamurai]

As people insisted that Mai got robbed in her free skating and take it out on Loena, I consulted the rulebook to check whether their claims withstand scrutiny.

Please note that this analysis is based on the protocols and the live commentary and thus might be incomplete.

Mai had planned seven triples in the free skating, Loena had planned six. However, Mai only jumped six. As the top group of women is a very tight field in quality and programme base score (they rarely jump ultra-C elements), the scoring strongly depends on the mistakes made. It's also the reason, judging might seem harsh at times as this situation forces the judges to nitpick.*

Mai left quite some points on the table when she missed a jump combo. The first jump of that element (3Lz) was underrotated and as she had jumped it already, she got only 70% of its base value. Note that it’s not the BV of a fully rotated 3Lz but of a 3Lz that has between 90° and 180° less of three full rotations. When this happens, the skater gets -5 GOE. She added the missed two jumps of that combo to her final jumping pass (3Lo), but doubled the triple, dropping even more points. She also landed two other jumps on the quarter, which doesn’t affect the base value of that jump but is reflected in a negative GOE.

Note the -4 GOE judge #5 gave for the fourth element. The highest and lowest value are omitted in the calculation of the combined GOE for each element to avoid unjustified scoring by single judges. However, this judge wasn’t even consistent in giving bad GOEs, so it could be a mistake.

These are the base values of those last two jumping passes (jumped in the second half) if she had nailed them:

3Lz+2T+2Lo = (5.9+1.3+1.7)*1.1 = 9.79

3Lo = 4.9 * 1.1 =5.39

which is 15.18 in total.

Instead, Mai jumped:

3Lz< = 4.72*0.7*1.1 = 3.63 (4.72 is the BV of the underrotated 3Lz)

2Lo+2T+2Lo = (1.7+1.3+1.7)*1.1 =5.17

Which is 8.8 in total.

Hence, Mai lost 6.38 points of her planned base score, which would have been enough to outscore Loena. And this doesn’t even include the GOE.

Mai was sublime all season long. She won all three Grand Prix events with ease. Normally, she's a much more consistent jumper than Loena. She was a contender for the world title and if she had kept it up it would have been a fierce battle for the top podium spot between her and Kaori, but her skating felt flat compared to previous performances in this season. Of course, this is reflected in the PCS.

After the competition, I learned that Mai was injured, and I believe this contributed a lot to her performance in Saitama.

Now on to Loena:

Loena had one fall on the 3Lz, resulting in a -5 GOE for this element and a -1 deduction. She also landed this jump on the quarter, but as she already got maximum negative GOE for this element her score couldn’t get any lower for this one. (She was lucky it was this jump she quartered). All in all, the fall on the 3Lz might have cost her something between 3-4 points compared to if she had nailed it.

Overall, Loena skated cleaner, sharper, and with more conviction than I’ve seen her since she won the Grand Prix de France. She lost her composure not even once, whereas she didn’t deliver in the GPF and at Europeans. And once again, this is reflected in the PCS. Haein and Kaori got even higher PCS, and rightfully so as their performances were sublime.

If Mai had delivered, she would have comfortably outscored Loena. She even outscored Loena by a wide margin in the GPF where both women had six triples in the free programme (you can check the protocols here). She is just that good.

In the current rule system, mistakes require the judges to lower the PCS. The more mistakes and less well-executed elements are, the lower the PCS become as mistakes affect the composition of the programme and are also reflected in the skating skills.

This is what the ISU guidelines say about PCS and how mistakes should be treated in this regard. As Loena and Mai both have one serious error in their free skating, this looks fine to me:

The situation is somewhat similar to the Grand Prix Final, only that it was Kaori who bombed the free skating in Torino. Strangely, I heard no complaints back then, even though Kaori is even more popular than Mai.

In the end, it all boils down to the actual performance and maths.

I would have loved to see Mai and Loena sharing the podium. I would have loved to see either of them win gold, but at the same time, I’m happy Kaori defended her title and Haein won silver (I just like too many skaters). I also feel sorry for Mai because her free skating took such an unfortunate turn. And I feel sorry for Loena because she gets all the hate for scoring higher.

It's hard to believe that a skater from a small federation of little influence should be overscored when the skaters from the big federations are favoured by the judges by getting ridiculous GOEs and PCS (and even that isn't consistent as it's usually limited to certain skaters from these feds). It also should be noted that this is about politics with the skaters being the pawns in this game, which puts heavy pressure on their shoulders.

However, Belgium is by no means a big federation and it’s mostly known for Loena and her brother. The judging system has many problems, but in this case, I don’t see why the scores for both women should be questionable. If someone more well-versed in the technical aspects of this sport than me reads this and can explain it, please do enlighten me.

*this has been explained over and over throughout the season by different commentators, most prominently by Mark Hanretty in the ISU live stream of Worlds

[raininyourblackeyes]

Hello! May I take advantage of your judging knowledge and ask two questions about judging? 1. Are the judges informed of what the title / music of each programme is? Is this maybe in the judging system or are they given it printed out, perhaps? 2. I was sitting behind the technical panel at a competition once and it seemed like they had the planned programme content for each skater printed out and annotated. Do they prepare for each competition and make notes like "double-check the Lutz edge" or similar? Any insight would be very much appreciated!

Ah these are fun questions! Thank you for asking them!

About the program music, it's not in the system as in they get them on the screen before the skater starts with their program the way audience does on the TV and streams. However, judges will usually have it printed out together with the planned content. Quite often knowing what kind of program to expect can be helpfull. I can't speak for everyone obviously, but it's common for the judges to also watch performances from previus competitions (unless it's the skater's first comp of the season ofc) as it gives the idea of what to maybe expect in terms of PCS. But it's not something that ISU will force them to know, it's pretty much a method that differs from judge to judge. The technical pannel on the other side doesn't have to know anything about the music choice as their only job is to call levels and mistakes such as downgrades or extended lifts etc. Which brings us to part two:

The tech panel must have planned program content as that is the base for all their further work. Pretty sure that 99% of the judges have them, too. They may annotate it beforehand, at the meeting before the competition when the referee gives out some pointers, or if they are a really experienced judge who has developed their own system during the actual performance, or not at all. The second last option is the most difficult since everything happens in a blur and they don't have to just watch for the entry-element-exit but also the program overall for the PCS. The judges that are able to do it are always extremely prepared for the post competition meetings when the scores are discussed between the panel and the referee. The annotations for the tech panel are probably exactly double-check the Lutz (I am not a technical controller); for the judges, due to differences in what replays we get compared to tech panel, that same Lutz note would be more like pay attention to the entry or something. For me, I usually have an entire notebook with me which is my "general study on the IJS". I know a number of judges, too, have those. Often, the rulebooks are carried around. I'd say it's a matter of experience overall. Someoen who has been judging for 10 years will find the process much easier than the judges who just passed the international examinations and those younger judges will do more background research before the competitions.

[wbspeedsite]

True skate glitches

Tl dr: The current system has an internal logic that provides stability and predictability to all involved, while a change would introduce more uncertainty for all and potentially create more expense and stress for skaters while inhibiting their development. GP assignments would get even harder, and there would probably be even more scope for skaters and fans alike to complain of unfairness: who deserves a spot at a late-season GP more, a skater with a senior-level competition score in the top 75 Season's Best list or a junior who racked up wins on the JGP circuit in the previous season but didn't medal at Junior Worlds and has no senior competition record? How would the GP rules (which are already complex) have to be rewritten to let those juniors angling to move up during the season demonstrate their eligibility for a GP assignment? And federations would be asked to take a chance on naming to ISU competitions skaters who had done extremely well at domestic nationals but had no experience of senior-level international competition, having skaters make their senior international debuts at the highest-stakes competitions, far more frequently than they currently are. And what happens if that junior then doesn't get senior assignments, or gets assignments that are smaller and less prestigious than the junior assignments they passed up? They would have lost the invaluable experience and growth that comes of competing on the big stages for nothing. If skaters could move up from junior to senior competition at any point during the season, a promising junior might have to choose between sitting out a big chunk of the season and beginning to compete only after other senior skaters had already had several opportunities to show their programs to judges and work out the glitches and nerves or learning two different versions of a program (or in the case of the ice dancers, two entirely different rhythm dances) to compete in juniors for part of the season and seniors for the rest – which may not be ideal from the perspective of training, and which could quickly get expensive. it theres no ads theres no glitches that delete everything and the game is fun to play without. Not true, there are still plenty of HOM glitching happening after the patch. Check out similar apps to True Skate - 9 Similar Apps. Skaters and their coaches and families know beforehand what their objectives for the end of the season will be, and can plan programs and training regimens accordingly (bearing in mind that junior and senior programs have different requirements) federations know whom they can send to the different tiers of competition and can distribute assignments and resources accordingly. Skate 2 Hall of Meat Glitch Hall of Meat Glitch. That provides a certain amount of predictability and stability. Click to expand.I assume that the 30 June cut-off date is chosen to align, more or less, with the sport's season – just as the NHL begins in mid-October and so has a cut-off date a month beforehand.

[apassionfortranslation]

Kiss & Cry Reloaded Ep 7 - Transcription and translation

It took almost a month because of my job and Christmas, but I finally managed to finish this. It’s a partial transcription (the whole podcast was over two hours, and it talked about Ladies’ single, Ice Dance and Pair skating too) and its translation. Feel free to share it but please add due credit: I’m happy to do this for the figure skating community, but it still took several days of hard job ^^. 

Here’s the original https://www.spreaker.com/user/talk-sport/kiss-cry-reloaded-puntata-7

Time tags are added when needed.

Please message me if you spot any kind of mistake! I’ll be happy to edit it!

And many many thanks to Massimiliano Ambesi, Angelo Dolfini and Francesco Paone for their insights and company!

Kiss & Cry Reloaded – Episode 7.

Partial transcription.

Transcription and translation by Costanza Bonelli

Legend:

A: Massimiliano Ambesi

D: Angelo Dolfini

P: Francesco Paone

[Italic Text in square brackets: my notes]

 Starts at roughly minute 10:30

P: ... Now, let’s get more in depth on several topics. Ok, Massimiliano, you mentioned the judgement in the Junior Ladies competition, you also mentioned Japan: let’s put it all together, because in the last three or four days there were a lot of talks and discussions about what happened in the men’s single competition, because, okay, Chen won, Hanyu got second, but looking at the scores, many people say “No, it can’t be like this.” I’ll let you talk.

A: I’ll start, but Angelo and I will go back and forth with each other, because, I mean, the topic is sensitive. Let’s put down the basis: Nathan Chen’s victory is legitimate, he got it on the field and this is not up to debate.

D: With full merit, absolutely.

A: With full merit He completed two clean skates (D: Yeah), without any major flaw, and thus this victory, considering Hanyu committed some mistakes, is right. Hanyu lost the competition when he didn’t complete the combination jump planned in the short program (D: Yes), this is a fact, because from that moment he is the one chasing after Chen, clearly with a lot in his mind, the will to make the free program so extreme to try an almost impossible come back... And after that, there’s the free skate with all we all witnessed, in my opinion with more positive sides than negative ones, to be honest.

D: I totally agree.

A: The problem is that if you go and analyse the different elements, you’ll realize that in the GOE attribution, the parameters to get +5, +4, +3 etc are not followed. I believe, and I’m utterly convinced of this, that this system cannot stand as it is, and not because the judges are incompetent or deceitful, I don’t think that, otherwise I wouldn’t be here to talk about skating, I’d be doing something else, and I’d spend my Wednesday evening with my dogs and family, but because the system is not applicable as it is.

Francesco, you are a direct witness because you’ve watched some competitions with me. Every year, I probably see 10,000 different skates, a lot of parents send me their children’s programs from when they’re 10 years old until 18 to know what I think about them, in Italy it happens a bit less, but I receive a lot of video from other countries, so I see a lot of different things. This to say that I’m used to seeing programs, to studying them and to giving scores. But in real time, when you have to judge 12 elements and to keep into consideration the PCS, you cannot objectively keep into consideration all the bullets and the detractions that you have to give to any jump with its GOE. It’s not humanly possible.

I dare the Italian judges to do this (there are some that are real “know-it-alls”), face to face, when they want, I’m here, just call me and I’ll be there. It isn’t possible to judge a skate correctly keeping that system in mind. Then, we can say that a jump is very nice: do we want to give it a +5? Then let’s do this, but the rules say a different thing. The judge is not able to apply said rules to 12 elements, one after the other. Someone will say, “OK, but after the program there’s some time to review it”. The time is not so much, though.

D: It’s a very short time.

A: Yeah, comparatively, very short time.

D: And there are the PCS to score too.

A: Exactly. And what else is there to consider? The fact that, when there’s a review, the call on the element may change.

D: Yeah.

A: And consequently, you have to, you know Use the rules, which call for a compulsory deduction on that element, based on the kind of call arrived.

D: Maybe the jump is under-rotated, or the edge is wrong.

A: Wrong edge, or dubious edge, there are a lot of cases. The consequence is that, with this system, it’s not possible to judge correctly a competition. This doesn’t mean that Nathan Chen stole something, because he deserved to win, but there are some Nathan Chen’s jumps that are judged incorrectly: the Italian Judge that gives +5 on Nathan Chen’s 3A has to explain the reason behind that +5.

For example. Or, the judges who award the 4S from Nathan Chen’s free skate with the same GOE as Hanyu Yuzuru’s one, and I encourage you to watch them both with attention starting with the take-off in both jumps, even if Hanyu simplified his free skate a lot, are - I don’t want to say incompetent - but  they weren’t able to judge the element, because in that short time it’s not possible to take into consideration every single bullet that is required. What they do, then, is getting a general idea and give +5, +4, +3, but this is not what the system wants the judges to do. I’ve said these things several times about the various 3A made by Hanyu in the competitions that preceded this final. So, the judges who said [?] +4. But when you give a +4, it means that you didn’t see two of the three available requirements to raise to +5.

What didn’t you see in Hanyu’s 3A? Doesn’t it match the music? It’s a joke, because he’s so insane about it that if it didn’t match the music, he’d rather fall on the ground, angry because he didn’t execute it as he wanted, so that jump does match the music: no.1. Isn’t the take-off preceded by an unexpected or difficult entry? Because if it isn’t so we can go home now. I’m talking about the short program. Isn’t the position in flight correct, perfect? It may have happened once that he was slightly off centre, but not enough to justify a deduction in the GOE. It’s a +5 for sure, and when you give a +4 instead, you have to explain why you didn’t see two of those three bullets. But I don’t want to think that the judge didn’t see them, I think that the judge didn’t even get to consider the bullets, because in their head it’s impossible to do that in that moment, so they say +4. But this is not what the rules say. And as we’re seeing a lot of cases like this...

D: Yeah, and I’d add, in this specific case, they judge, they see that something is missing, because they say “It’s slightly off centre”, from +5 I’ll go to +4, but it shouldn’t be like that, they should remember that the bullets are six and the skater might have fulfilled five of them, and as you correctly explained, it becomes very complicated to do all this.  

A: Why does it become complicated? Because I feel it myself without the pressure of being in a technical panel...

D: Yeah, that too...

A: ... And I see how it works. +

D: It’s very complicated.

A: I mean, either we find a way to simplify the score attribution, or this cannot go on.  Because the GOE assigned during the competition doesn’t match what the athlete did. This said, Nathan Chen did an exceptional performance from the athletic point of view, okay? But the fact that he completed all his jumps doesn’t mean that all his elements deserve the maximum GOE available, and that there are only positive aspects without any negative ones, this is what I mean. So, if we cannot evaluate the quality of the element for what it is, it becomes difficult to assist to a competition with a correct judgement, and thus a competition that mirrors the real values on the field. Hanyu did lose the competition for other reasons, and we said that everything starts from that failed jump, the missed combination jumps in the short program.

Because everything starts there. But, if you go and see the panel of the elements in the short program, you’ll see that elements that Hanyu executed perfectly, and I mean the triple Axel and quadruple Salchow, didn’t get the maximum GOE possible. And this needs to be explained too: the judge who was there has to explain “why +3?” Or “why +4?”, tell me what’s missing. And this is something that applies to Hanyu Yuzuru, or to Nathan Chen, or to a thousand other athletes. I want to stress and highlight that this system, as it’s thought out, is not good to judge the competitions of this speciality. And I mean Figure Skating. On the Ice Dance, I don’t even want to start the discussion, I’m not really interested in it and it’s based on a completely different approach, but it’s not possible to judge instantly 12 elements and to follow, thoroughly, as it should be, the current rules.

D: And it is complicated, really complicated.

A: Exactly. And I stop here, it’s your turn. It was better in the past, with the +3, because judging the elements was simpler, and then, even then you could get confused, and it was again “very good” = +3, “good” = +2, “good but with something off” = +1, “so and so” = 0 and so on, because the same exact thing happened to Plushenko too.

D: With more nuances, if you want.

A: Exactly, it was more believable, in the past, and now it’s your turn.

D: Yeah, I mean, beside the objective difficulty in correctly evaluating and judging the elements with this score system, that is quite beautiful and thought out, but very complex, and so it’s difficult to judge in such a short time, etc, I’d like to add another concept, in my opinion, that must be explained, and I mean: a lot of judges, especially judges who used to use the old system, a bit less with the newer ones, have always been used to comparing the skaters in front of them (and it still happens when you look at a skating competition), with the aim of saying... What’s your first goal?

The goal is to make a correct classification of the competition they’re evaluating in that moment, and it’s also understandable and right that it’s one of the goals. But, for how this system is thought out and built, it constitutes a more or less absolute judgement system, where competitions are comparable with each other, it’s possible to have and consider a “World record”, and it’s possible to have, let’s say, absolute scores, so they should be able to judge an athlete independently from their competitor, focusing only on what they see on the ice in that moment. Once, with the old system, it wasn’t like this, the comparison was explicit, so they only had to choose, as a judge, who to put first and who to put behind. It was simpler, if you want, but it was less precise, and more arbitrary. In this moment, in the moment when they have to go and judge the single elements, it’s simple to say “Ok, look, he executed it impeccably, it’s the most beautiful triple Axel I've ever seen.” Hanyu made it single in the free skate, for example… +4, +5. I understand this point of view, but then, reading the rules, it’s possible to say, “But... Maybe the entry is not that difficult”, it could still be a +5, we said so earlier, but let’s see, is the landing smooth enough? Are there /have there been smoother landings? Then they analyse it, but this is all in the space of a few seconds and it’s so difficult to do, it is then easier to go on the emotional wave of what one sees: Nathan Chen’s performance was astonishing because he was impeccable on everything, the flaws were really just minor, maybe some landings were not very smooth, but that’s all, and we’re talking about extremely difficult jumps, it’s obvious that something like that brings people to give very high marks, and it is also partially correct, obviously. Then, with a colder mind, maybe alone, you see that program, and you’re not evaluating it in the context of a Grand Prix Final, with the huge tension that was there, and you can make different analyses. In that moment, with that tension, with what they were competing for, it’s easy to evaluate a performance like that in an extremely positive way, and we could ask if it’s correct or not, it might not be that wrong, it’s not easy to weigh everything.

We can discuss about one element, we’re here to do that, we also like to try to understand what an athlete or the other is doing. For us, Hanyu presented excellent elements, and there were a lot of positive notes that he brings home from this final, the quadruple Lutz above everything else, we can say that, but quadruple Loop was great too, but the GOE accounts for a lot in this moment, and if you analyse the required bullets with attention, and you see that in any case the difficult entry is only one of those, but you have 6 of them total. Sometimes a difficult entry makes so that the skater misses everything else and gets less points, and this lets you understand how the judges judge a certain type of skating, and then we would need to see different scores on the PCS, especially on transitions, but even at a strategic level, if you analyse the new rules with attention, and the new bullets, you can see that a jump done with a good speed, very wide and with a good position in air can take a +4 if you get it on the music beat, and maybe even a +5.  

A: And then, the analysis of the men’s competition is very complex because everyone will ask why Hanyu ends up creating a program with those characteristics. Because the difficulty of that program is absurd, out of the normal range. Because it’s for all these reasons, for the lack of compression of the GOE given to a series of elements, that, for the skaters that can afford to do that, the idea becomes raising the base value as much as possible. And so, if you sum the elements that Hanyu had planned for the free skate up and compare them with Nathan Chen’s, you can see that Hanyu’s base value would have been higher, in a “clean program vs clean program” scenario. Then, Chen would have gained something in case of maximum GOE he could get, because he has a margin of 0.20 point on the base value of the spins, and that means 0.10 on the GOE, with a perfect program, and then he has a quadruple Flip instead of a quadruple Loop, those have half a point of difference, and it’s another 0.25 potential GOE.

Fact is that, putting all these elements together, Hanyu’s perfect program vs Nathan Chen’s perfect program would have given Hanyu 0.8 points. This just to silence some things that you can read around and that are wrong on this part. Hanyu knew this, because he calculates every part of his program, he had to catch up, and he decided to go all in, but what remains, beyond what some people might say (and I can’t understand why these people say falsehoods), is that Hanyu Yuzuru, in the practice programs and during the practice sessions, has almost always completed the quads he presented, on the short program run-through he make a mistake on the combination, as he did during the competition too, but after a couple of minutes he tried it again and executed it perfectly. He had wonderful completion percentages on every quad. Quadruple Lutz included, which he didn’t practice as much, but when he did, he completed it, as we can see on the free program day: he got it perfectly in the run-through, caught by the camera too, and it was one of the most beautiful quadruple Lutz ever seen, and then he repeats it, almost of the same level, even during the competition.

He had the amazing ability to raise the bar in the most important moment, he failed on the athletic point of view, there’s not much to say, because after two and half minutes he was objectively in difficulty, even though, and this needs to be said, he had simplified his program compared to his normal one, you can see some more crossovers, a bit more skating on two feet, but it’s clear that as he had to go all in with a different program than in the other competitions, he had to risk some more. This said, in practice probably, not here, but in Toronto, he proposes something similar, because his objective is bringing 5 quadruples of four different kinds as per rules with his free program, because he can repeat one, and he still had the satisfaction to complete all those jumps. He will surely need to grow in quality for the rest, and to get the ability to complete every planned elements, so, in this moment to beat an athlete as solid as Nathan Chen, you need perfection, you can’t escape this, but I cannot think that Nathan Chen could still be ahead of Hanyu Yuzuru if both of them skate a clean program, because if this was the case, there would be a problem with the rules. I heard someone saying “Well, on the skating skills and transitions, Nathan Chen is at Hanyu’s level now.”

D and P: embarrassed laughter.

A: You have to explain it to me, though.

P: But... Massimiliano, please allow me, there are a lot of questions about a certain topic, I mean... We all appreciate the way you’re trying to calm the situation down, but the impression is, from what we can also read on the Spreaker chat, that the blown up GOE are getting annoying, a lot of people is asking “but why are the mistakes always on the same person, is the system broken?”, and okay, they could be wrong, we could be wrong, but the mistakes always seem to be oriented in one direction. Shouldn’t this be a reason to reflect on: is there one more problem beyond all that we said until now?

A: Guys... What can I say, it’s from the start of this season that I’m trying to bring some situations to light. Not even from the start of the senior Grand Prix season, it’s from the Junior Grand Prix circuit, where we saw a ladies’ skater, Alyssa Liu, getting huge GOEs, out of proportion with the quality of the elements she presented. Sincerely I haven’t ever seen something like this happen. The nationality is the same as the one above mentioned, the origins are the same as him, we all know where the 2022 Olympics will be, these are factual data that cannot be denied. Still, you have to go on the ice and complete the elements. But I don’t want to call politics on this, because I’m not interested in that. Also, Nathan Chen didn’t steal anything, I don’t want to think that he’s stealing anything, but I want to point out that if I analyse element per element what Nathan Chen does between his elements in the short program, I see something different from what Hanyu Yuzuru does. And careful here, Hanyu Yuzuru might be wrong. How? I mean, when for the judges the “best that there is” is what Nathan Chen does, and that it has to be done that way, probably Hanyu Yuzuru takes risks and uses a kind of skating that is too demanding to be able to win. Because, okay, we can say that Nathan Chen, athletically speaking, is in better shape than him, he was more prepared, he has more resistance, etc... But Nathan Chen’s skating is half as tiring as Hanyu’s.

D: Yeah, these are all elements to be considered, it’s also right to underline how even Hanyu had to simplify his programs, going a bit that same route, but it was necessary because

A: In the free skate, Angelo.

D: In the free skate. In the short program, you know what I think about the short program, in a condition of clean skate vs clean skate, I don’t think we can put up any kind of discussion, although the score makes you think because even Nathan Chen got over 110, and it’s true, he had a higher base value in the short program.

A: It’s true. In the short program, yes. I’ll explain: Hanyu presents a quadruple Salchow that has BV 9.7, correct me if I’m wrong, the other presents a quadruple Lutz, that has a higher value: 11.5, e, careful, the advantage is not only on the BV, but also on the GOE, because Nathan Chen can get a 5.75, which is half of 11.75, Yuzuru Hanyu must stop at half of 9.7 which is 4.85. But if the two programs are skated perfectly, Hanyu has objectively something more, and let’s explain what: the triple Axel. Hanyu’s triple Axel is worth +5. And you cannot dispute it, if you dispute it you shouldn’t be sitting in the judging panel. Of any competition, a regional one or the Olympic final, the free program at the Olympics, it’s the same. This is not disputable. And if we consider the program components, in my opinion there’s a huge difference. Beyond the fact that some experts tell me “Eh, but Nathan Chen’s choreography is brilliant.”

P: Massimiliano, regarding what you said before, and I mean that in case of clean program vs clean program Yuzuru Hanyu would beat Nathan Chen in any case, we got a question on the Spreaker chat, in which... And I quote: “In a well-known Facebook group, an expert with experience on the ice, the same that said several times that Hanyu’s triple Axel is preceded by a bracket turn, has said that clean free skate vs clean free skate, Chen would beat Hanyu for 15 points”. I’m asking you to explain this.

A: Well... Angelo, this question seems a bit confused to me, sincerely, because an expert who skated that says that the Hanyu’s famous triple Axel is preceded by a bracket turn... They cannot be an expert who skated.

D: Heh, no, they can’t.

A: We’re talking about entirely another thing.

D: Exactly. It’s possible to do a bracket turn before the triple Axel, but it’s not what Hanyu does.

A: He did a different thing, that is called backward outside counter, we could define it this way, that has nothing to do with a bracket turn, so we have two possibilities here: either the quoted person committed a typo, but here they say that “they said several times”, or... I don’t know, really... For example, it’s like if someone wrote me... [okay, here Massimiliano made a Tennis reference to Roger Federer which would probably take me ages to understand because I don’t know Tennis enough, I trust what he says. What I got from it, it’s that although a thing might be similar to another in a very superficial way, it’s very easy to see that they’re not the same].

Angelo, please, explain the difference between bracket turn and backward outside counter, I’ll go over the 15-point topic, that I believe might be my fault, because I didn’t really face this topic on Facebook, I was more on Twitter while explaining. No! There weren’t 15 points of difference, because, I repeat, the BV + GOE of Hanyu’s planned free skate was 0.8 points above Nathan Chen’s, go and sum the values up and you’ll see, if we only look at the BV, it was a bit higher still, as you [Angelo] explained earlier, Nathan Chen took something back with the maximum GOE, the Flip and a spin, I believe. Because I think that Hanyu does a Flying combination spin, a classic combination spin with change of foot and another flying

D: sit spin, yes,

A: flying sit spin.

D: A sit spin, yes.

A: that is worth 3 vs the camel change foot camel or change foot camel spin, call it as you wish,

D: That is worth, 3.20.

A: Exactly, Nathan Chen’s one, so 0.20 points are there, and then there’s the difference between Flip and Loop, so it’s not possible to have 15 points of difference. Maybe I should have written specific posts on the topic, explaining the score of every single element. Hanyu reasoned like this, most probably: he went and skated a free program that has higher Bv+max GOE because he needed it. I want to be very clear: I would have liked to see a different competition, I would have liked to see Hanyu skate a clean short program, being in front of Chen for one point or so (as Nathan Chen get very high scores), and then go for his classic program, clean.

D: he can do it.

A. to bring the maximum he could in the free skate, that was my dream for the final, because it would have been a fantastic competition from any point of view. Hanyu made a mistake in the short, mistakes are part of the competitions, and it ended as it did, but... The result is right, what is the base concept though? That 334, right? New World record, that, for what I think, it’s not valid, it’s not confirmed by what has been done on the ice. I mean, we need to detract a lot of points. Even in this case, Nathan Chen would have won the competition.

D: There no doubt about it.

A: I hope I answered the question, you tell me... For Bracket/counter is something not possible, this leaves me speechless.

D: No, I mean

A: I mean, I think the question is wrong.

D: Yeah, they’re very different things, and I’m going to try to explain this as simply as I can: the peculiarity of the triple Axel that comes from a backward outside counter is the fact that the exiting edge of the counter, and I mean after the turn, after the difficult step that brings you from going backward to going forward, is the same edge where you have to start the Axel.  It is possible to execute a bracket before the triple Axel, but it’s not on the foot from where the Axel starts, but on the other foot. When you have a bracket, you usually do it on a forward inner edge that puts you on the same curve, switching to the back outer edge, that is the typical preparation for the Axel, the one we all see, and then you turn and do your Axel, and it would still be a difficult entry, maybe Alex Takahashi, if I remember well, did this, so it’s possible to do that, but it’s a different thing. It’s very difficult, but maybe a little less difficult [than what Hanyu does] in my opinion. Just to explain this part.

P: And... Regarding Hanyu, people are asking if it’s true that he wants to change his technical staff, as he was alone in the Kiss&Cry.

A: No, okay, this must be explained. okay ay, for the Grand Prix final, each skater can be accompanied by only one person of his technical staff, so only one will be accredited. What happens? From Toronto, considering that there weren’t other Hanyu’s rinkmates qualified for the final, only one coach could leave, and the Japanese Federation didn’t put Orser’s name but Briand’s, who is, by the way, a person who is very close to Hanyu, he’s the person he probably spends most time with in Toronto, sort of a mentor. Orser explained this situation saying “I didn’t go, he (Briand) went because Yuzuru wanted to up the difficulty of the program, to up the technical score with more jumps, and Briand is the jump-specialist.

D: Yeah, he is.

A: You know it well, Angelo, you also did some stage with him, didn’t you?

D: Yes, I met Briand.

A: So, Orser not being there is linked to this situation, if Brown had got his qualification, as it would have been normal, Orser would have been with Briand, and it would have been better for everyone, because the coach’s role there is fundamental for the logistics and a lot of other small things. Then, Briand had problems with the flights, and he was stuck in Frankfurt, I think, and he arrived late, and Hanyu found himself alone to face the short program and the previous practice session, he made that mistakes, etc. The problem is that he was alone even for the successive practice session, the one of the day after the short program, and there, in the last fifteen minutes, he started trying quadruple Axels on top of each other, in some cases he was even able to complete the rotation and ended up falling badly, and those are not trivial, you can get hurt. If Brian Orser had been there, or Briand, probably nothing of that would have happened.

D: No…

A: He wouldn’t have started to practice the quadruple Axel at full speed, I don’t think the strategy for the free skate would have changed, because at that point he needed to go all in, he was 10 points behind, or something like that, and he had to risk everything he could. But probably, had Orser been there, some small situations would have been handled better but they’re not planning a change in the technical staff. Then, it’s clear that when a relationship lasts for a lot of years, there are highs and lows, aren’t there? It’s normal, but, as far as I know now [December 11th, 2019 TN] there’s nothing more than what I explained, we’ll see in the Japanese nationals who will be with Hanyu (who, by the way, hasn’t participated in the Japanese Nationals for quite a long time, for various reasons). Being there, alone, for such an important event, in a country you don’t know, and God knows what more, isn’t easy... No... Please, add something Angelo.

D: Yes, look, for sure we were all surprised to see him alone at the Kiss & Cry, but then it went exactly as you explained it. The problem is that it’s not easy to handle the emotions in these situations, and we all know Hanyu, and it’s true, what we saw at the practice at Palavela wouldn’t have happened if he had had his staff there. It’s a pity that things went that way, but we cannot go back. In the end Briand arrived, and he managed to fix some things, surely the Plan B had already been prepared, I honestly don’t think that the quadruple Axel had been, the one attempted in the practice, but, you know, those things can happen, but I think that Hanyu, in his interviews, has demonstrated times and times again his complete trust in the Toronto coaching staff, and I cannot see, or at least I don’t know of, problems in this sense. Besides, this union between Hanyu and the Toronto Cricket Club has surely bore fruits until now.

A: well, you know, we’re talking about two Olympic titles, besides two World championships titles, four Grand Prix Finals, etc, etc, etc. It is to be said, for those who are worried, that Hanyu lived the situation in a very serene manner, it’s sufficient to see his behaviour during the gala, when, at the end, he was one of the main protagonists, the pranks he did to the other skaters, the gags with the Russian female skaters, and more and more, but Hanyu is also this, and pay attention, because now a whole new game opens up, because what is to be tried, and I know Angelo won’t like this, it’s raising the BV of the short program. Because when that quadruple Lutz becomes a solid jump, everything changes. When the quadruple Loop is done smoothly, as it was, several times in practice, everything changes two times. Translated: we cannot imagine what’s in his mind, and this defeat, the second in a row against Nathan Chen, hurts, and he’ll probably do whatever he can not to have another one at the World Championship, where he is, “home”, as it’s in Canada. That Canada where finally he broke the taboo of the victory in the Grand Prix competition, in this season.

We can expect changes, that that free skate, as it’s planned, might become more stable in time, so that he may be able to skate properly the last part too, and I would like to make you think about the construction of the two programs, and I’d like to do this all together, because I think that from this point of view Nathan Chen is brilliant.  Nathan Chen is score-machine. Why? Because it’s true that both Nathan Chen and Hanyu have five quadruple jumps, but Nathan Chen builds his free skate so that the most valuable elements, without the bonus, are all in the first part. Look at which the first three elements presented by Chen are, and look at the value of those elements. He starts with three big jumps, which he faces fresh, there’s not much between these elements because, I mean, doing a quadruple requires a lot of physical effort, mental too, but he completes them all. Sum up Nathan Chen’s first three elements: they are three absolutely difficult elements, and he manages to complete them, as they were nothing.

D: Fifty points.

A: more than fifty points, and from this point of view, the strategy is brilliant. What does Yuzuru do? Yuzuru is very attentive to everything regarding the BV, and he knows that his premise is that he hasn’t the quadruple Flip, so he backloads the programs, so that he can have all his combination jumps in the second part. For sure, though, when you get around the 3-minute mark, or beyond, and you have to jump a combination of quadruple Toeloop, Euler, triple Flip, (that Nathan Chen does too, but after 45 seconds); and a never-seen before in competition sequence of two triple Axels, which is terribly difficult (and yes, he is able to do even four of them in a row, but when he’s rested)

D: For sure!

A: And then that quadruple Toeloop, triple Toeloop that sometimes gives him problems. One day, I’d really like to tell you Hanyu’s story starting from the Junior competitions. The combination with the triple has always given him a few problems, even when he was younger. When he was young, very young, a child, 15/14 years old, he didn’t do it with a quadruple

D: Lutz, Toeloop

A: I remember when he competed in Italy in the Grand Prix, and we’re talking back of an era, he was constantly working in practice on Salchow/Toeloop, Flip/Toeloop.

D: Yes,

A: Because that year at Junior level I think [here the voices were too mixed, I didn’t get it, but I imagine they were talking about the compulsory jumps in Junior].

D: It was the Lutz

A: Exactly, so, that was his first Junior season, but in general, that is the element that, more or less, has often given him problems in several occasions. This does not mean that he can’t do a combination quadruple Toeloop/triple Toeloop, because when he does that, I mean, it’s exceptional. It’s clear that presenting it after three minutes is difficult. In Turin he did a quadruple Toeloop/double Toeloop, but he had other intentions. What I want to show you, though, is that if we analyse how the programs are built, we realize how much easier it is to get points with Nathan Chen’s program, isn’t it? Hanyu has a triple Lutz as third element in this moment, and he has a lot of elements in the last two minutes, while Nathan Chen’s distribution of the elements is much more balanced, and allows him to get more breath between a part and the other of the program, between an element and the other. This is where the people making the program for Nathan Chen are very good at it, don’t forget that. It’s clear that Yuzuru risks so much that when he completes everything, he is automatically ahead. So, when we think about the programs, let’s think that these little parts regarding how they’re built, especially in a moment when only the last three elements get the bonus.

D: Exactly, so it changed the game a lot.

A: Someone asked why Nathan Chen doesn’t do two triple Axels, he could gain more points with two triple Axels. The answer is no, he cannot get more points with two triple Axels, before the final he did two triple Axels and had one less quadruple, do you remember it? He gives the second triple Axel up, that would be the last jump in combination, probably with a double Toeloop. Why? And he cannot do that with a triple Toeloop, because that would mean repeating the triple Axel, that he is already doing as fourth element, what is his reasoning? I do, as first element, the quadruple with the triple, right? This quadruple is the Flip, in this case. Then I repeat two quadruple Toeloops, then I go to the last element: I have two options: Option A, very risky, triple Axel/double Toeloop, BV: 9.3? Something like that?

D: Yes, 9.3.

A: And then there’s the bonus

D: there’s the bonus

A: Option B: triple Lutz, that I haven’t done yet, and I get to repeat the triple Toeloop. BV, let’s sum it up: 5.9 + 4.2 or 4.3, whatever: it’s more than 10 points already. And there the brilliance of how the program is built is evident, why? Because of Nathan Chen’s qualities, this program with five quadruple jumps completed, is the one that can get as many points as possible.

D: in relation to how difficult the elements are, too.

A: And even regarding the difficulty, because doing a triple Lutz/triple Toeloop for Nathan Chen [both voices at the same time].

D: It’s easy as pie

A: after two and half minutes, it’s like playing. And that triple/triple becomes, considering the bonus, one of the most valuable elements in his program.

D: Exactly. It’s a paradox.

A: So, this is one of Nathan Chen’s great qualities. In order to defeat Nathan Chen, you have to surpass yourself. Then, if the judgement is fair [he used the English here], a lot of things can be different [both voices at the same time].

D: But it’s right to highlight the strategy. Nathan Chen’s strategy and program-building, they are studied in every detail, fit to their skater, and you have to tip your hat in front of a skater that is able to complete cleanly a program with five quadruple jumps, it’s not easy.

A: Sure. Come on, Francesco, go on with the questions, I think there are a few on this topic.

P: Well, I’d say that on the Men’s competition there’s not much more to say, there’s a lot on the Ladies’ skate, if we want to close.

D: it was magnificent.

P: Well, yeah, it was magnificent.

A: Well, on the Men’s skate, I’d like to go back for a few on the program components we talked about earlier. If we talk about the short program, I cannot think for Hanyu to be considered at the same level of Nathan Chen, on skating skills and transitions there’s no competition. Beyond the fact that in Turin he may have skated at the 80% of his potential and not at the 100%, you cannot even compare them, I don’t know what you think about it, Angelo. And those two voices are the not subjective ones, okay?

D: Exactly. Yes, we’ve talked a lot of times about this: there’s less room for subjectivity, if you may.

A: On the other scores, you can call subjectivity in question, someone may like Nathan Chen, someone might say “Mi arriva” [this is something along the line of “he moves me” and “I get him”], which is a term that... When I hear “Mi arriva”, I immediately get angry, okay ay?  I don’t say it, other people do. In my opinion, that depends on the genre, on the style, depends on whatever you want... Maybe Hanyu has more room compared to Nathan Chen, so much that with a big mistake, still he’s ahead in all the components of the short program. Then, the difference should probably be higher. In the free skate in Turin, Hanyu simplified a lot.

D: Yes, this is to be underlined.

A: We need to remark this, and simplify a lot means going on the same level of the other, though.

D: And sure, sure, this might be a strategic mistake, even though, I don’t know, it’s difficult to evaluate, because in the end you need to complete a program with 4 or 5 quadruples, otherwise you have no ammo, you’re helpless. Hanyu has a big problem in this moment. The quadruple Lutz was exceptional, but he is usually less reliable on Lutz and Loop than Nathan Chen is (and demonstrated to be) on Flip and Lutz, and the game is there. Then, on whatever is left, you’re taking a risk, you’re raising the difficulty and start putting difficult entries left and right, it really risks to become too tiring, it’s a very subtle balance, but how Hanyu simplified his program on the transitions is evident to everyone, but he raised the technical difficulty really really a lot.

A: But this does not mean that he is behind Nathan Chen on this.

D: No, not behind. But the difference is not as much.

A: Exactly. Then, the transitions are not only about what you do with your feet

D: no, for sure.

Until 53:13

 Min: 1:52:00

P. There was a question getting back to Hanyu

A: uh, let’s go back to Hanyu

P: Let’s go back to Hanyu: they’re asking what is the BV difference between the Free skate in Turin and the one in NHK [this was my question actually].

A: Okay, let’s talk about the Turin’s program he had in his mind, what he wanted to skate and couldn’t because there were some small mistakes. I’d say there were... Almost ten points between BV and GOE, I only take into consideration the maximum you can get by summing the BV and GOE with all +5. So, there were 10 point, 9.70/9.50, something like that. The BV + GOE in Turin was, I think, 142.23, go and check, but from what I remember, it was something like that, while in the Grand Prix competitions it was slightly less than 133, so that’s the different, and it was a fundamental difference to catch up with Nathan Chen, he knew that Nathan Chen would be going from four quadruples to five, and so to balance the situation, he needed to create that program, and its difficulty is completely crazy.

 Min 1:54:35

P: I have also seen... this is a consideration more than a question. Having seen them skating live, I have to say that Trusova’s jumps are not only definitely higher than Chen’s, the Toeloop is basically as high as Hanyu’s, but she also has a way better ice coverage, plus she skates on one foot.

A: Oh, they, this is an interesting thing I wanted to day: when we talked about Hanyu’s skating being more tiring, in general, it’s because, yes, there are more segments on one foot only, but there’s also a bigger ice coverage that, in theory, should be considered for the composition score.

D: Yes.

A: Someone consider it in the skating skills, but in my opinion

D: it’s not correct.

A: I’d say no, rather than yes, but it’s in Composition that you have to judge that score. Chen is not the only one to have limits of that kind, even if he improved, if you look with attention at Zagitova’s, I’d say Medvedeva’s too, it’s not like they have a lot of ice coverage. A ladies’ skater who has an important ice coverage is Miyahara, and Rika Kihira too, I’d say. Kostornaia, Hanyu, and, okay  Hanyu is so... Hanyu takes care of this kind of details on his own, he calculates everything, the contrary would be surprising, but this is a very intelligent consideration, I’m happy that we have such a profound audience following us, I mean, it makes us proud.

[myjunkisyuzuruhanyu]

Is there a way to watch a competition without caring for scoring? I try but can't accomplish. Not only Shoma but also my other favorites looks like they are victim of scoring all the time. I don't know if I enjoy the competition when especially younger skaters look heartbroken.

Unfortunately I have no solution to offer for this.

As my posts very much show that I am not able to not care for it either...

I think the only way to not care is to either have absolutely no clue on scoring and believe the judges know what they are doing (which was me at the start of following skating back in 2008-2012) or to just not have emotional attachement to any skater and neither is a thing I am capable of.

I think I kind of accomplished that feeling of not caring of scoring for ice dance and rhythmic gymnastics to a certain extent that I am not bugged that much with the scores. But that is only due to the fact that politics play an even greater part there and there is absolutely nothing in the capability of a skater to change this. In singles or pairs you at least have the BVs that if a skater does a higher BV their scores cannot be kept too low even if there are countless ways to still underscore skaters with UR calls or little GOEs, PCS etc...but even the nastiest scoring will not put someone with a terrible skate into first place and therefore there is still some sort of hope that the scoring may be correct or at least understandable...but well it isn't but hope dies last I guess...

I do think though even with all the lamenting about scoring most of the time the right skaters win the medals - not always, but most of the time. Like today I can lament about Shoma's scores but still the final placement is not a discussion for me.

This is may sound a bit harsh but I think it's the only way:

I can only advise that if you personally suffer emotionally too much from the scoring issues, you probably should take a step back from watching competitions. This is not our life, this is a hobby and it should be fun to watch. And even if we do care a lot for those skaters, these skaters don't know us, they aren't our friends and they don't gain anything from our suffering. I know it's hard to step away from something you love, but your own happiness isn't worth it tbh.

For the skaters the scoring issues are a totally different matter - it can destroy careers - but it's not in our hands to change the system and the skaters know better than anyone else how politics and judging goes. I think we as fans can make our voices heard by the ISU and skaters will feel the support by an audience, so we should not stop adressing issues and supporting the skaters but in the end we are just fans and it's also understandable that our opinions don't matter this much bc look how different the opinions about scoring and skaters are from different fan groups.

I think that as much as I personally feel involved into the skaters I like we should not forget that it's our life, our personal wellbeing we need to keep care of. Pls don't forget to live your own life and if skating doesn't bring you joy anymore, take a step back.

I can only say for myself that I do enjoy to watch competitions and as much as scoring often sucks and even if my lamenting is a lot and sometimes it's bringing me personally pain, but not as much as that it influences my daily life in any negative way. I do enjoy skating a lot, unfortunately it comes with a scoring...but that's also making it excited and interesting....

I already said too much again...but I hope that helps a tiny bit.

[tutuandscoot]

What exactly do you think Tessa loved so much about Montreal? She’s talked about the control that she and Scott took back and the support from B2Ten plus the general environment of the city. But what about Marie France and Patrice and their school do you think contributed to her love of the sport at that point?

Ohh what a great question!

Yes to all those things you mentioned about the city being a change of scenery and offering artistic inspiration! I think that work with B210 was a game changer and yes taking charge of their careers and as much as everyone used it as the butt of a joke, their business relationship really flourished in leading and directing all these experts around them to make them their best. Also considering it was a sponsored program- really making the most of the opportunity that I’m sure hundreds if not thousands of Canadian athletes would kill to have.

I think the whole taking control of their career was HUGE for them (and I’ll get to this in another post with more detail) but the way they approached their whole comeback as not just a return to competition, return to win the Olympics again as redemption for Sochi (it wasn’t, but it may have been seen as that), was this comeback was really like this epic PROJECT for them- like an all encompassing, fully rewarding life project. Artistically, athletically, as a business/work project, also for themselves as best friends to create together, this really incredible project that took several years (their life experience leading up to the comeback) and exiting out of it after the Olympics- they had a plan for everything and didn’t leave anything up to chance- they control everything they could and planned to be the best to get the best result. Like this body of work they created was more then their skating body of work- this comeback era was like.. this piece of both performance art, and this Quintessential, VirtueMoir comeback project- like a piece of history people would study- it was just so much more than a return to competition. That is so freaking cool!! You look at all the other skaters that made comebacks- Patrick, Mao, even Yuna, christ, Torvell and Dean in ‘94 (different era so not a fair comparison). I don’t know the details of all those comebacks but it seems so much less methodical, less planning, more on a whim, and obviously with singles it’s different to a dance team- TS as a pair designed this entire comeback. The only thing they couldn’t control was the results- the judges (the corruption). But they did everything they could, made sure their team did everything they could so they knew they were at their best and if they were the results would follow.

As for Marie and Patch. Yes! I think they were exactly what TS needed. I’m not sure coz I wasn’t around back then, but I’m curious if there was talk in the FS community about TS going to M+P because they were the up and coming school to take over from Marina- they had a “2x worlds team” and TS were coming to challenge the hot new ISU toy team.. create drama etc,etc..

But for those who knew TS before Sochi/ before they came back, not know them personally but know their story and the recent Canadian ice dance history, Marie and Patch were their mentors- TS said they wouldn’t have come back if not for M+P, and M+P said TS were always like their little bbys and they took the responsibility of kinda mentoring them through the ranks and preparing them for what’s to come- how to be champions and be people others wanted to work with, coz they knew they were gonna burn down the whole effing system when they hit their stride. TS going to Marie and Patch had nothing to do with the school, who else was training there, the favourability within the higher ups at feds and ISU. I think TS would have wanted M+P to coach them privately even if they didn’t have a school- I’m sure they would’ve just hired out a rink and worked with them everyday to get where they wanted to be. Obviously having the school and the competitive environment worked to their advantage in having been through that before- but they would have gone to them regardless, a lot of other teams, esp post PYC after the bump IAM (as it was to be called later) got and all the publicity that was attached to TS gave the school, a lot of teams went there for that notoriety and because it was the place to be to get the marks and the winning chore (largely based on the manufactured PC trend, not TS because they always had their own direction- they never fully fit a particular school’s ’style’) kinda in a far less extreme comparison to Eteri and Sambo70. Encompassed so obviously in that olys YouTube series about IAM (which I didn’t watch all of) all the top teams that were there- even more extreme than at Arctic Edge (and then when Marina and Igor split), newer up and coming teams like LL, Mid-late stage career teams like HB and FBS, and then old teams -like compulsory era old like Chock and Bates (who just don’t know when to stop) eventually flocked there after PYC. TS were the ones everyone was chasing for the better part of 10 years, then they were gone and the sport regressed into overly emotional lyrical FDs, weak patterns and a down grade in athleticism and innovation (purely IMO).

TS are the outliers in all of this and no matter what school they went to they would be as special as they are - but for them having the right mentors was critical to them- and that’s what M+P we’re, at this later stage in their career, more mentors to them as people, and then in a contradictory way kinda parental figures to them in this new city and further away from home. That sounds weird to say- they were in their late 20’s and had been out of home since early teens, but TS being so close with their families this probs did feel like a big step away and having M+P who they always looked up to at took care of them was a comfort I think they needed- a balance of comfort and drive to be better then they ever thought they could be. I also wouldn’t be surprised if being with an actual couple- married couple, if that dynamic really worked for TS since as Patch had described them- they kinda were like a couple- just this very unique, unorthodox one. This couple for the purposes of creating art. I’m sure they fed off that dynamic from M+P- not that TS needed to be inspired by and actual couple or learn how to create chemistry- they already had it, but I think just emotionally that really helped them find their peace with each other again and truly not be afraid to just be in love in their own unique way- in love with each other and their sport. Not to mention the whole T+P being the head and S+M the heart. T+M the art and S+P the technique (not exclusive to this roles but all that melded together). This odd mix of different dynamics within these four people was what all four of them needed.

[woodwind-sensei]

I almost wrote an entire post about the Program Components and how they work but I was too scared Eteri stans would come for my wig.