#Lord Thomas Seymour

[kingedwardvi]

Curiously enough, I’ve only recently watched “Becoming Elizabeth” as I’ve concomitantly read Edward VI’s biography.

It is hardly a surprise to observe there were great differences between the show and the book, specially concerning Katheryn Parr and Thomas Seymour’s own relationship.

Admittedly, though I know little of this matter myself, came across the excerpt below which gave me a lot to think about. For those who are little familiar with the first Dowager Queen of England in an almost a century (the last being Queen Elizabeth Wideville), the following content might actually come a surprise—or not.

What matters here is to promote not only a healthy discussion about their union, but showing that whereas Katheryn did love the man, she was not his first option to marry and she was not a “fool” completely blinded by her affection for him: she hesitated at first, unwilling to remarry in at least two years before becoming Lady Seymour out of respect for the king of England. However, Lord Thomas was a persuasive man, writing as far as a poem to claim the dowager queen’s heart—and he eventually succeeded it, as we are seeing next.

“Katherine moved into her dower house at Chelsea - away from the eyes at court, it was the ideal setting for Seymour to pay secret visits by night. Letters were sent and received, their contents, upon Katherine's urging, were quickly burnt: 'Your letter being finished ... I remembered your commandment to me’, Seymour wrote, ‘wherewith I threw it into the fire, be minding to keep your requests and desires’, yet the survival of both their letters suggest that neither was quite so willing to part with these tokens of love and affection.

Katherine confided her feelings to her friend Lady Paget, who urged marriage. But Katherine was hesitant. She wished 'it had been her fate to have him for a husband' but she was mindful of her position as queen. She had even kept the affair secret from her sister Anne who, when Katherine finally revealed the news, 'did not a little rejoice'.

As a growing number of friends discovered the secret of the affair, it became increasingly difficult to keep it hidden and rumours soon abounded. Meeting Seymour in St James's Park, Princess Elizabeth's servant Katherine Ashley challenged him over his marriage plans. Seymour boasted 'he would prove to have the queen', to which Ashley retorted that she thought this 'was past proof as I had heard he was already married to her'.

Ashley was right, for sometime between mid May and the beginning of June the couple had wed in secret, with one commentator believing the marriage had taken place as early as thirty-four days after Henry's death.

If this was true, then Katherine was playing a dangerous game - if she had become pregnant, there would have been no certainty that the child was Seymour's or Henry's. Katherine remained unwilling to commit herself, having doubts to the last.

She claimed she was his 'loving wife in her heart' but was determined 'never to marry, and break it when I have done, if I live two years'. Nevertheless, Seymour got his way. News of their marriage could not stay secret for long.

'I wish the world was as well pleased with our meaning as lam well assured [of ] the goodness of God's’, Katherine had lamented, 'but the world is so wicked that it cannot be contented with good things’. Instead she suggested that they find support for their union amongst the most powerful members of the council and court.

Seymour tested Princess Mary's reaction. It was not good. Mary considered it 'strange news', writing that if Katherine was keen, there was little she could do. In any case, 'being a maid' she was 'nothing cunning' about 'wooing matters'.

Instead, Mary appealed to her dead father's memory: if Katherine was not willing, certainly she would not 'persuade her to forget the loss of him, who is as yet very ripe in mine own remembrance’. Privately Mary was horrified at the prospect, and blamed Katherine for the affair. She possibly even appealed to Elizabeth to discourage the queen, but her half-sister, not wishing to stir up trouble, told her that they lacked any influence at court and should suffer with patience what was impossible to prevent.

Seymour would have to look elsewhere for support and he knew precisely whom to turn to. His confidence rested in the fact that he had managed to remain in regular contact with Edward through John Fowler, a Gentleman of the Privy Chamber, whom Seymour gave a bribe of £10 (£3,000) shortly after the coronation and before long was in his regular pay. Despite being almost continually in the presence of other gentlemen of the chamber, Fowler was soon able to converse with Edward and soon struck up a close friendship with the king, speaking to him alone.

It was not long before Seymour was calling in the favours. At the end of February he had met with Fowler over a drink and asked whether Edward had mentioned him - and in particular whether the king had ever wondered why he had remained unmarried. Would Edward be happy for him to marry? And who should he take as his bride?

Without asking too many questions, Fowler approached Edward a few days later, somewhat unsubtly repeating Seymour's queries. Edward's first reply was to suggest Anne of Cleves, but then, giving the matter more serious attention, answered that he thought Mary to be the best choice, if only 'to change her opinions'.

When Seymour heard, he laughed. 'I pray you, Mr Fowler, if you may soon, ask his Grace if he could be contented I should marry the Queen.’ He also wanted to know if Edward would write a letter on his behalf in support of the marriage.

It was at this time that Seymour, without Fowler's knowledge, began to visit Edward in private. It was not long before he had persuaded him to write a letter to Katherine, dated 25 June. Despite Edward writing to Katherine at the end of May urging her to 'continue to love my father', now the king seemingly endorsed her relationship with Seymour, since the letter ingeniously made their marriage appear as Edward's personal request to Katherine.

Moreover, it gave specific assurance that Edward would safeguard Katherine against any reaction from Somerset, who the couple knew would be furious at their secret union: 'Wherefore ye shall not need to fear any grief to come, or to suspect lack of aid in need; seeing that he, being mine uncle, is so good in nature that he will not be troublesome ... if any grief shall befall, I shall be a sufficient succour.'

The entire letter was no doubt composed by Seymour, who probably dictated it to the king.(…) When news of his brother's marriage leaked out, Somerset was furious. Edward's blessing made Somerset all the more enraged, and the king was not immune from the brunt of his anger, noting in his journal that 'the Lord Protector was much offended’.

But it was his wife Anne, the Duchess of Somerset, who took the greatest offence to the union. Described as 'a woman for many imperfections intolerable, and for pride monstrous, subtle and violent' who held Somerset under her sway 'by persuasions cunningly intermixed with tears', she detested Katherine.”

SKIDMORE, C. “Edward VI: The Lost King of England”.

[tudorqueen6]

7 September 1548: THE FUNERAL of the Dowager Queen

Evesham Journal 7 September 1548: THE FUNERAL of the Dowager Queen Katherine Parr. It was the first Protestant funeral held in English. Her chief mourner was Lady Jane Grey. She was buried in St Mary’s Chapel on the grounds of Sudeley Castle, Gloucestershire, England. ‘A Breviate of the Internment of the lady Katherine Parr, Queen Dowager, late wife to King Henry VIII, and after, wife to Sir…

[shierakqiyas]

EXPLORING THE PARALLELS BETWEEN DAENERYS TARGARYEN AND ELIZABETH I OF ENGLAND

Both Daenerys & Elizabeth are the last descendants of their dynasties (House Targaryen & House Tudor)

Both Daenerys & Elizabeth are daughters of tyrant Kings (Aerys Targaryen & Henry VIII)

Both Daenerys & Elizabeth are the third in the line of succession to the throne which make them unlikely heirs but the unpredictable deaths of their respective siblings made them rise to power and becoming Queens regnant that ruled in their own rights.

Both Daenerys & Elizabeth are preyed upon by their guardians. ( Jorah mormont is dany's sworn protector/knight and Thomas seymour is elizabeth's stepfather)

He should not be doing this. I am his queen, not his woman. (...) It was a long kiss, though how long Dany could not have said. When it ended, Ser Jorah let go of her, and she took a quick step backward. “You… you should not have…”

—Dany, A storm of swords

Seymour’s own behaviour was not calculated to make this seem unlikely, for he treated Elizabeth in a boisterous way that was too tinged with sexuality to be dismissed as playfulness pure and simple. He liked to engage the teenage girl in suggestive banter, coming into her bedchamber before she was fully dressed so that he could “bid her good morrow and ask her how she did, and strike her upon the back or on the buttocks familiarly”. If he found her still in bed, “he would put open the curtains and … make as though he would come at her”, forcing Elizabeth to burrow helplessly under the bedclothes. “One morning he strave to have kissed her in her bed”, which even Mrs Ashley thought was going too far, and she “bade him go away for shame”. Mrs Ashley’s presence ensured that these sessions could not get too out of hand, nor was Elizabeth herself an altogether willing victim. She was able to outwit the Lord Admiral by rising earlier than usual, so that when Seymour entered he found her up and dressed, and demurely absorbed in study.

—Queen Elizabeth I by Anne Somerset

Both Daenerys & Elizabeth are polyglots. their abilities to speak many languages allowed them to converse easily with people from various backgrounds that visited their courts.

Reznak and Skahaz waited atop the marble steps. “Great queen,” declared Reznak mo Reznak, “you are so radiant today I fear to look on you.” The seneschal wore a tokar of maroon silk with a golden fringe. A small, damp man, he smelled as if he had bathed in perfume and spoke a bastard form of High Valyrian, much corrupted and flavored with a thick Ghiscari growl.

“You are kind to say so,” Dany answered, in the same tongue.

—Dany, A dance with dragons

(..) While her mastery of so many languages later assisted her conduct of diplomacy by enabling her to converse with foreign ambassadors,

She (Elizabeth) did not see language simply as a means of communication but as an artistic medium, and it was this that inspired the singular cadences and ornate phraseology of her mature speech.

—Queen Elizabeth I by Anne Somerset

Both Daenerys & Elizabeth's take great joy in riding horses

Dany rode fearlessly, and the joy and the danger of it were a song in her heart.

Dany thought of her only as the silver. She had never loved anything so much.

—Dany,A game of thrones

She was an excellent rider, and had such a good seat on a horse that in February 1560 the Spanish ambassador reported admiringly, “The Queen rides out every day into the country on a Neapolitan courser or jennet … She makes a brave show, and bears herself gallantly”.

—Queen Elizabeth I by Anne Somerset

Both Daenerys & Elizabeth sought by many marriage suitors because of their power and high status

Both Daenerys & Elizabeth have secret lovers, Daenerys take Daario as a lover just like Elizabeth I (assumed by historians) take Robert Dudley as her secret lover. because Daario and Robert are too lowborn, their close relationships with Daenerys & Elizabeth faced with disapproval and scrutiny from people in the queens's courts.

The old knight neither liked nor trusted Daario, she knew. Even so, he had answered gallantly. "There is no woman more lovely than Your Grace. Only a blind man could believe otherwise, and Daario Naharis was not blind."

—Dany, A dance with dragons

When Kat, with her usual impetuosity, again urged that, whatever the facts of the case, the damage to her reputation could even lead to civil war, Elizabeth - emotional now - refused an appeal that she see less of Robert. She needed him, she said, because 'in this world she had so much sorrow and tribulation and so little joy'. To some of the foreign ambassadors, this was indeed becoming a scandal that could even topple Elizabeth from the throne.

—Elizabeth and Leicester: The Truth about the Virgin Queen and the Man She Loved.

daenerys art credit to :

[elizabethan-memes]

When you step back and look at Thomas Seymour's life, it's an endless stream of privileges.

He was handsome, rich, able-bodied, well-connected, well-travelled, MALE. His sister was Queen. His brother was Lord Protector. He had an amazing wife. He had beautiful homes to live in.

To put into perspective just how privileged he was as Lord Admiral: the sailors on the Mary Rose have scars on their bones from childhood malnutrition. I'm not blaming him for the malnutrition, I'm saying he was lucky.

Thomas Seymour had everything. He could have led a charmed life. He could have mentored princesses.

What, at the end of the day, did he do with all his privileges? What could a better man, or a woman, have done with the privileges Thomas Seymour wasted?

[racefortheironthrone]

I saw not long ago that the Duke of Norfolk is still a thing, and he's the #1 Duke outside the ones who are made up for being the King's close family, and he's a Howard descended from the guy who died at Bosworth and the Howards have been the top Catholic family in the UK for centuries. How did that work when Catholicism was illegal, and also BOTH the wives Henry VIII killed were members of that family? Why didn't Henry or a devout king take them out? Why didn't they go down with the Stuarts?

Great question!

The Howards have always had a remarkable talent for getting themselves into and out of trouble - the former because they were ambitious noblemen who aspired to high office and dynastic marriage alliances with the royal family, the latter because they were rich and powerful noblemen who were good at laying low for a while and coming up with a good plan b.

So to take Thomas Howard, his father and grandfather had gambled heavily on Richard III and lost almost everything when the Tudors came to power. However, Thomas managed to marry Anne of York, which gave the Howards a blood tie to the Tudors, and a route back into power as Lord Admiral. Highly successful military service against the Scots made Thomas an Earl and thereafter he was the Tudors' go-to military man in Ireland and France.

Then Thomas gambled again with Anne Boleyn, and when that ended disastrously, he very carefully made sure he ended up on the right side of things by presiding as judge over the trials of Anne Boleyn's "lovers." His prestige nevertheless took a hit and he had to spend some time away from court before eventually being recalled to deal with the Pilgrimage of Grace. (Notably, despite being the leader of the Catholic faction, Thomas had no problem with promoting his Protestant niece or brutally suppressing the Catholic Pilgrimage.)

After bringing down Cromwell, Thomas achieved his zenith of power by bringing about Henry's marriage to Catherine Howard. That gamble ended disastrously when Catherine's adultery was found out, leading to Thomas being exiled from court. He later found his way back into power, only to be thrown into the Tower along with his son and the rest of the Catholic faction when the Seymours came to power. And so it went.

As to the issue with Catholicism, the thing to keep in mind is the "middle way" that the English Reformation pursued. When the dust had settled between the conflict between Edwardian Calvinists and Marian Catholics or crypto-Catholics, Elizabeth I's settlement didn't quite outlaw Catholicism. Catholic "recusants," as they were known in the statues, were fined for not attending Church of England services, but a wealthy family like the Norfolks could afford to pay. Now, it wasn't exactly safe - Thomas' son Henry Howard the Earl of Surray got himself executed by Henry VIII due to his extreme political stupidity, and his son Thomas got executed for trying to overthrow Elizabeth I in favor of Mary Queen of Scots, and his son Philip died of disease in the Tower of London, where he had been jailed for being a Catholic and plotting with Jesuits, although Philip's son actually did quite well as a diplomat and courtier under James I in part because the two shared interests in collecting art.

And so it went...

[fideidefenswhore]

Do you think Henry VIII's childhood had a significant impact on his psychological development as an adult?

'Psychological' is not really something we can diagnose from remove; but more reasonably, yeah, I think his childhood set up his...what is a broader, less diagnostic term... emotional blueprint (perhaps even setting up his 'relationship' with God, as he would have understood it)? I think the impact of the death of his elder brother (it's generally argued he wouldn't have felt grief for this because they hadn't been raised together, the extent and intimacy of their interactions was more like cousins than what we think of as usual for siblings, but regardless of how well he 'knew' him, of course this was impactful insofar as it shaped his life by making him heir) and mother within the same year is generally underrated.

He was in the public eye at a very young age, his various ennoblements were granted to counter Warbeck's claim, one can presume that his admiration of Henry V might even have began here (Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports had been Henry V's title as Prince of Wales, Henry VIII will later, mainly, keep this specific title in his family in a pattern that denotes the violent flux of Henrician factional politics: Edward Guildford is his father's appointment, but once he dies, the title goes to his brother-in-law, George Boleyn, after Rochford's execution it's granted to his natural son, Henry Fitzroy, there's an interim exception where it goes to Thomas Cheney, but afterwards it goes to Henry's uncle, Arthur Plantagenet, until his arrest...thereafter it's in a joint office with Cheney again, and Henry's brother-in-law, Thomas Seymour, presumably as a reward for his military services); but there's this succession of threat, ennoblement, threat, sanctuary, reprisal of execution(s) for the threat(s) (and also executions for dynastic security, such as that of Edward Plantagenet, prior to the arrival of his future sister-in-law/wife), threat (in the vulnerability of the succession, once Arthur dies), followed with the death of his mother...

So all this was inevitably going to shape him to believe that there was nothing more important in the world than the Tudor succession, and specifically in his own children (in his more idealistic, optimistic beginning, sons) being the ones to inherit the throne. Why else would God have chosen his father to win Bosworth, why else would God's choice have been Henry instead of Arthur as King, if he doesn't have surviving sons by his first wife, it must have been because his choice in her as the mother of his heirs was contrary to God's will, if he doesn't have surviving sons by his second wife, it must have been because of the same reason (and by Anne, it's possibly compacted by CTE, but I think there was also an element of...by this marriage, it's about his seventh child, that has been miscarried or been stillborn, the severity of her downfall and the observation of 'you never saw prince nor man who made greater show of his horns or bore them more pleasantly' can be attributed to the comfort he might have felt in the extent of the 'depravity' suggesting that her miscarriages had been the children of other men, not his own...tied in with his allegation that Anne had been trying to poison Fitzroy and Mary, again there's ties into the protection of his succession being the general thrust behind these actions, and if it has to be protected by means of violence, well, that was in the marrow from the start...)

[maximumphilosopheranchor]

Hatton had two powerful contacts at court, but his links with each were fairly weak. Firstly, he had some slender links with the Parr family, the most famous member of which, Catherine Parr, was queen of England during Hatton’s childhood. Catherine wrote in 1548 to her then husband, Lord Admiral Thomas Seymour, recommending a ‘Master Hatton’, who must at that date have been Christopher’s elder brother Francis, so some meaningful connection clearly existed. Later on, her brother, Marquess of Northampton and a magnate in that county, was prominent throughout the mid-​Tudor period to his death in 1571, but there is no evidence of a relationship between him and Hatton. We have no way of assessing whether Hatton really owed his career to these links or whether they were too remote to be decisive, although it is intriguing that Princess Elizabeth was living with Catherine for the first half of 1548 –​ she might conceivably have become aware of Hatton’s family at that early age. Hatton’s second contact was his cousin Sir Edward Saunders. Saunders was a prominent judge, a former protégé of Thomas Cromwell, appointed Chief Justice of Queen’s Bench by Queen Mary, and a considerable figure in Warwickshire. Saunders was a confirmed Catholic, and accordingly fared less well under Elizabeth, being demoted to Chief Baron of the Exchequer. This naturally limited his utility to Hatton, although it must have been helpful at the Temple. Saunders and Hatton were clearly on good terms: Hatton was named as the overseer of Saunders’s 1576 will (and bequeathed the judge’s best gelding) but since Hatton was by then an important figure, this does not necessarily mean that Saunders advanced his career when he was merely a humble provincial gentleman. Nor is it likely that Saunders was particularly influential at court. Enis speculates that, in view of their Temple connection, Robert Dudley (whose ideological position was then fairly flexible) may have been an early patron of Hatton, but again this cannot be proven. It may well be that one of these contacts helped Hatton to begin his court career.

Neil Younger, Religion and politics in Elizabethan England: The life of Sir Christopher Hatton

I had no idea about anything of this. Such a small Tudor world.

[abushelandablog]

If i had a nickel for everytime they cast a hot actor as lord thomas seymour id have exactly two nickels which isnt a lot but its weird that it happened twice

[stinalotte]

Ten characters Ten fandoms Ten tags

List your 10 favourite characters from 10 separate fandoms, then tag 10 people

I was tagged by @bagheerita ! Order of characters does not reflect order of preference. (Although Sam Carter is indeed my all time number one)

1. Samantha Carter (SG-1)

2. Rodney McKay (Stargate Atlantis)

3. Josh Lyman (The West Wing)

4. Death (Discworld)

5. Samwise Gamgee (Lord of the Rings)

6. Thomas Andrews (Titanic)

7. Castiel (Supernatural)

8. Seymour Birkhoff (Nikita)

9. Dana Scully (The X-Files)

10. Vasilisa Petrovna (Winternight Trilogy)

Tagging @texasdreamer01 @schimmelspore @sga-owns-my-soul @mushroom-through-the-stargate @elveny @cassiope25 @rodneymckays @three--rings @sgatazmy @stargatebarbie

[alternatehistoryworlds]

A happier life for Henry VIII's children: Part 3.

Edward was the son of King Henry VIII of England and his third wife Jane Seymour. The birth of a healthy boy was a great miracle and joy not only for his father, but for the whole of England. Edward's childhood was happy, because he had his own mother with him, who with her gentle voice could calm and support him. But it did not last long, in 1547 the boy had to grow up sharply and take on his children's shoulders the responsibility for the whole country, because his father Henry VIII died. His older sister Mary, Queen of France, became regent until the little king came of age. Mary ruled in her brother's place for 8 years. In addition, Mary and Jane did not allow the latter's brothers to influence the young king. Edward and Thomas Seymour were angry about this and they even tried to remove Mary from power, but they failed. The Queen of France uncovered the plot and sent them both to the Tower for life. In 1557 Mary's regency ended and she returned to France, and Edward became the rightful ruler of his state. Two years earlier the king had become interested in Protestantism, and secretly from his mother and sister he began to study it. At a council, he told his lords that he wished all England to convert to this religion, and most of his advisors supported his idea. The Queen Dowager of England tried several times to dissuade her son, but he became angry and made it clear that he would not allow her to interfere in his affairs of state. Queen Mary of France also did not lag behind and tried to return her brother to Catholicism and her attempts were not successful. But there were also those who disagreed, and because of this there were riots and rebellions in the country, the rioters demanded that the king left his venture and returned to the true faith. However, the king was not deterred by their demands, Edward managed to quell the rebellions and to appease his subjects, he declared in public that he would be tolerant and let them believe what they wanted. And to reconcile Catholics and Protestants, Edward promised to marry a Catholic princess, but their children would be Protestants, and to marry his other older sister Elizabeth to a Protestant. In 1558, the princess married the eldest son of the King of Sweden and left England for good. The king himself married Mary Stuart a year later. The marriage between the King of England and the Scottish Queen was a very successful and cohesive one. Mary appointed her consort as her companion and they lived on two countries.

Jane of England(1560 - 1618). Duchess of Angoulême. In 1578 she married her cousin Charles. Their married life was not a happy one. After the birth of their last child, the couple finally drifted apart and stopped living together. Four children were born in the marriage.

Henry IX of England(1561 - 1611). King of England, Ireland and Scotland. In 1589 he became King of England, and in 1600 of Scotland. In 1605 he proclaimed himself king of Great Britain. He was married, but did not love his wife, during their marriage he never touched her. Also the king had a mistress who bore him 5 children out of wedlock: Mary, Edward, Elizabeth, Grace and James. Died at the age of 51 of bubonic plague.

James I of England(1563 - 1627). King of Great Britain. Inherited from his older brother, as the latter had no legitimate children. Also, unlike Henry, he loved his wife and never cheated on her. Husband of Elizabeth of Denmark, father of 11 children: Edward VII, Sophia, Charles, George, Isabella, Joan, Frederick, Barbara, Henrietta, Arabella and Robert.

Mary of England(1564 - 1590). Mary was given in marriage to her cousin at the age of 18. The marriage produced 4 children. In 1590, Mary contracted pneumonia and died on the anniversary of her father's death.

Elizabeth of England(1567 - 1570). In 1570, the princess caught cold, contracted pneumonia and died at the age of 3.

Margaret of England(1569 - 1624). She was married twice, but both her husbands died shortly after the marriage. After the death of her second husband, Margaret declared that she would never marry again. She founded a charitable foundation and helped anyone in need, she especially focused on helping women and children.

Edward of England(1572 - 1586). Duke of Somerset and Albany. From birth had poor health. Died at the age of 14 from smallpox.

Richard of England(1575 - 1655). Duke of Somerset and Albany. After the death of his brother in 1586 all his titles passed to him. The Prince was noted for his good health and poetic ability. During his lifetime he became a famous poet. In 1600 he married Elizabeth Howard, after the wedding Richard and Elizabeth removed from the court and began to live a happy and quiet family life. The marriage produced 7 children: Mary, William, Edward, Philip, Anne, Catherine, and Nicholas.

Jane Seymour loved her daughter-in-law as her own daughter, the dowager queen liked to spend time in the circle of her grandchildren. On her son, she had almost no influence, but the king loved his mother and because of respect sometimes listened to her advice. Jane died in 1565, and Edward was greatly grieved by her death. Mary, more than anyone else, understood how her brother felt and despite their differences on matters of religion, came to England to give him moral support. In the end, they finally reconciled. Edward VI was a king beloved by the nobility and the people. For most of his reign, he tried to try on Catholics and Protestants and prevent religious warfare within the country. On top of that, the king gave shelter and protection to Protestants who had fled religious persecution. Edward VI died of tuberculosis in 1589. He was buried in Westminster Abbey next to his parents and other family members. Eleven years later, his wife Mary Stuart was buried next to him.

[duchessofferia]

Which is the earliest time Jame Seymour should have been introduced in "The Tudors"? Since Jame had scored a place in Katherine of Aragon's court in 1529, she should have been introduced sometime during the last couple of episodes of s1, along with Edward and their father John.

After a recent rewatch, during the scene at the s1 finale where a nameless girl rebukes Anne Boleyn after her wishing that all Spaniards would be put under the sea speech, I thought that that part should have gone to Jane Seymour. That rebuke could have been one of Jane's first lines in the series.

You’re right, Jane should’ve been introduced earlier. The earliest Jane could’ve been at court was 1527, or more likely 1528, to my understanding. Katherine of Aragon made her speech at Blackfriars in 1529, and The Tudors leaned into the idea of Jane as connected to Katherine - the scene where Mary gives Jane Katherine's cross to help her through labor comes to mind. As for Anne, there were an assortment of... nameless, jittery blonde women swirling around her during the early seasons. The creators could've slotted Jane into one of their places. Maybe they meant to? I know there was some kerfuffle about her casting.

If the comparison scene between Jane & Anne before the latter's murder is anything to go off of, the creators wanted to set Jane up as ideologically opposed to Anne, to some extent. It would've been nice if Jane was given a more self-actualized role in that opposition, rather than being shown as this silly, flighty girl who stumbled into a position for which we're obviously supposed to judge her. I just know she and Katherine Howard are sharing tea cakes in hell.

Sir John's offscreen death in Season 3, and the casually callous way Edward communicated it to Jane, also would've landed much better if they'd introduced Jane earlier. Her and Edward's sibling dynamic is one of my favorites in the show, communicated subtly through shared looks, close ups and such. In Season 2, Jane follows Edward's lead, allowing him to influence her decision making something like a surrogate father. Jane is certainly the passive member of their relationship, but that wasn't used to cast her as stupid, or lesser than the other wives, which I appreciated. Edward asking Jane if she'd like to be Queen once he and his father start planning for it speaks to this dynamic that's sort of childish, in a sweet way - Edward leads and Jane follows, but willingly, not slavishly.

In Season 3, when Henry starts controlling Jane more overtly, Edward remains a man in her life who she's allowed to criticize and chastise, even as he's demonstrated to be brutally unscrupulous in his own right (see: that awful sexualized torture scene.) His wife Anne Stanhope is shown putting horns on him, but Edward barely notices, never mind getting mad at her for it. Compare that to how savagely Henry reacted to the vaguest whiff of infidelity in his Anne. The first one, that is.

It's almost like The Tudors' Henry is a decent public figure, but a monstrous domestic one, while The Tudors' Edward is a monstrous public figure, but a decent domestic one. And Jane is the woman who connects the two of them, binding their families into one, however temporarily. As Jane lays dying, Henry compares her to his late mother, and Jane is introduced to Henry by her own father, himself depicted as this jolly old fat country lord. Sir John's characterization in The Tudors was sparse, but maybe that's a blessing, considering the shaft Thomas Boleyn got.

Which leads me to another comparison. Thomas and George Boleyn's posthumous reputations both took a massive hit with this show. George is rendered not just abusive but sexually violent, the shadow of early 2000s homophobia hanging over The Tudors' portrayal like a pall. His father's depiction is more unfair than offensive, but that's not much of an improvement. This promo pic of him just makes you feel dirty, as Olga Hughes pointed out, lmao. We the audience can assume that Pádraic Delaney's George Boleyn got his cruelty from his father, while Anne (and Mary) are the family's more kindhearted diamonds-in-the-rough, a position that is reinforced by George's atypical protectiveness over Anne, which is ultimately used against him. Jane and Edward's relationship isn't as emotionally intimate as George and Anne's, but Edward and George's duel positions as men who are capable of being both negligent & violent and paternal & attentive sets them up as interesting examinations of the kind of man who takes root in an environment like this, much like Charles Brandon, Eustace Chapuys, Francis Bryan, etc.

The missing piece in the equation is Jane. Henry's fatherhood is well explored, Anne's sisterhood is the most overtly sympathetic part of her characterization, Mary I's conflict as a daughter is what drives her through the whole series. Jane is a sister, daughter, mother and wife, and there are a few shining moments where she really titillates: inquiring about her family's plans, selling the necklace Henry gave her, chiding Edward for mishandling her father's death, protecting Mary no matter the cost, things like that. But her most well-developed relationship is the one she has with Henry, and that one says more about him as a man than it does her as a woman.

How did Jane feel about Sir John that encouraged her to lean on Edward, even though he was easily identifiable as a worse man than his father? How did Jane feel transitioning from Katherine's household to Anne's, especially with regards to her catholicism? What did she think about the dissolution of the monasteries when it first started? Did she want to get married and have children, or did she just know she'd have to one day? What were her prospects before Henry? What does she like in a man anyways?

Unfortunately, we don't know, because The Tudors doesn't bother to tell us. Wish it had been different, to say the least.

[tudorqueen6]

4 JUNE 1547: Lady Mary writes The Lord Admiral

Lady Mary (later Queen Mary I) writes to the Lord Seymour of Sudeley, Thomas Seymour on 4 June 1547. The letter was addressed in two different hands: “The Lady Mary to the Lord Admiral, 4th June.” “From the Lady Mary’s Grace“ Addressed to: “To my Lord Admiral” My lord, After my hearty commendations, these shall be to declare to you, according to your accustomed gentleness, I have received six…

[edmundhoward]

What about, Top 5 Seymour Wins?

put “top 5” anything in my ask and i will answer ok go

edward seymour (hertford) EXCLUSIVELY having secret marriages and conceiving children within the tower of london because the seymour/somerset line persevering through katherine filliol's treatment and through the most obnoxious means possible, proving how illegitimate the whole system of aristocracy actually is in the process… succulent.

jane seymour having a son first try

edward seymour effectively snatching basically total power as the lord protector. no we won't talk about how it immediately went to shit from there, the efficiency with which he initially seized control is fun. there's a REASON why we keep otherwise inexpicably getting unnecessarily cunty portrayals of edward seymour that unreasonably eat the more popular boleyn/howards up and this has got to be it.

elizabeth seymour.

edward seymour killing thomas seymour i only wish he did it with his own hands i only wish the axe missed on the first try <3

[heather123fan-blog]

Firebrand Review Part 2

Second part of my Firebrand review. Some of the bad things I didn't like and/or significant changes that were made I'll try not to spoil too much of the ending for everyone who hasn't seen it. I know it comes out later in the UK.

Firebrand seems to convey the feeling of a horror movie in that something bad is always about to happen. It starts out in a cold, dreary forest. The overall atmosphere is dark and gloomy.

Henry VIII never interacts directly with either Princess Mary or Princess Elizabeth. Even when they're in the same room. He is very cold and unloving towards them as well as Edward. All three kids are terrified of their father and don't seem to love him. This is an interesting choice I'm not saying Henry was a great dad, but he had a better relationship with his kids than what Firebrand portrays. Even if Mary, Elizabeth and Edward were frightened of their father's wrath they did love him and revere him. In one scene Elizabeth even accuses Henry of not loving them and then states that Catherine DOES love them. Hmm I thought that was taking things too far. The real Elizabeth wouldn't be that outspoken about her feelings even if she was privately thinking something of the sort, she wouldn't risk her father's anger by accusing him of not loving her. Outwardly at least, she revered him and wanted his love. So did Mary so did Edward. That scene could've been handled better.

There's also a similar scene where Mary is speaking in Spanish to her father and begging him to return the country to Catholicism. "Wasn't it better back then with Mama," she asks. Poor Mary.

Major characters such as Archbishop Cranmer, Latimer, Ridley, Anne Seymour, Thomas Wriothesley, Richard Rich and the Howards are missing.

John Dudley appears in a Council scene hurray! But doesn't get any lines boo.

The Seymour brothers look like dwarves from Lord of the Rings especially Edward. Their beards really stand out hehe.

There is a very unusual pagan-type dance with lots of leaves performed at court. Thomas and Catherine dance together I'm not sure if this is from the 16th century but it didn't seem to be a Renaissance dance.

Henry VIII makes Catherine Parr regent in his Will for Prince Edward when he dies at one point and then goes back on it and then re-instates her.

He accuses Catherine of having an affair with Thomas Seymour after the dance and they have a huge fight.

Thomas Seymour is portrayed as the sleazeball he was thank goodness and he betrays Catherine near the end of the film.

Catherine gets arrested put in prison and interrogated by Gardiner (this portion is shown in the trailer) in real life she was never arrested.

Eventually she is released, and she and Henry reconcile somewhat. I won't spoil the ending as there is a huge twist and I'll discuss it more once the film comes out in the UK with everyone else, but it ends on a positive note with Catherine Parr and Elizabeth in the final scene. With an emphasis on Catherine's writings, the influence she had on her stepdaughter and her long reign, as well as the establishment of the Protestant Church.

It's interesting because the film never states that Henry VIII rewrote his Will so one is left thinking that Catherine should have been Regent for the young Prince Edward when Henry died but others stole that position from her.

I almost think Firebrand would've worked better as an Alternative History film or a historical fantasy. It felt like I was watching the same story being told a different way where it seemed like Catherine Parr was destined to be the feminist heroine who comes out on top, saves the Kingdom and becomes regent for her stepson. Sadly, this didn't happen in real life. How I wish it had if only Catherine had been made regent for Edward, I wonder how things would've gone? Probably better as long as she doesn't marry Thomas Seymour.

[natequarter]

lord the women you put on this earth to make fun of thomas seymour are defending him on twitter

[fideidefenswhore]

Scholars have usually treated Katherine [Parr] sympathetically, partly because of Foxe’s revelations about her problems with Henry, but often they have ignored her political ambitions. In early 1543, shortly after the death of her husband, John Neville, Lord Latimer, Katherine was considering marriage to the two single men who were the closest relatives to [Prince] Edward, the king’s heir: Henry [VIII], himself, and [Thomas] Seymour. When Henry died, she quickly wed Seymour and supported his intrigues against his brother.

Wicked Women of Tudor England: Queens, Aristocrats, Commoners, by Retha M Warnicke