#QAF discourse

[pentosesuga]

would brian peel an orange for justin

[miriam-heddy]

A Brief Lesson In TV Fandom History: If you’re <25 or you just haven’t been paying attention…

You might not realize just how incredibly rare it is for ANY tv character to come out on a show that’s been on tv long enough for the character to be “long thought queer.”

Queer representation on TV is JUST. THAT. NEW.

In most cases, queer characters have been identified that way from the start (see Josh on 911). And for a looong time, they were like Will and Jack, in that they were almost always single.

There were no onscreen queer kisses. There were no bisexuals. No transgender characters. And those few that made it to TV were very often victims of #BuryYourGays. (See Xena, Supernatural). And most were on what we once called CableTV (see 2/33 of @supercupcakecollector-love’s examples).

And that’s where fanfiction came in.

You’re welcome.

what is the term for when a long thought tv character is confirmed as queer but they are paired with a charcter that isn't the big ship, so a big section of the fandom still isn't happy, examples include: Jaskier, Rhaenyra, and Buck from 911

[alexwilltellyouthings]

Entirely self indulgent rating post about the top 10 TV shows that made me fucking insane for some reason

10. Sense8

God, this was so good. Such a blessing. I saw part of the cast during a Pride Parade and it's one of my favorite memories. I felt every possible emotion with this show, I love it.

9. The Last of Us

This is kind of a cheat, because the obsession comes from the games, but it is what it is. It's one of the few games that had a big impact on me and I closely relate it to my relationship with my dad. Can't wait to cry my heart out at season 2.

8. Good Omens

It's a given, isn't it? That stupid angel with his stupid demon and their stupid God. GRRRAAWW. A lot of thoughts and feelings came from the fandom, I have to point out. It's been very nice.

7. The Umbrella Academy

I have the first issue of the comics autographed by Gerard Way!! I mean, yes, it's because I'm a MCR fan, but it became even more precious after I got into the show. I'm rewatching right now, preparing for the last season. I'll be a mess when I say goodbye to them. Can't even really think about it too hard or I'll cry right now.

Continues under the cut

6. Our Flag Means Death

LISTEN THIS CHANGED EVERYTHING TO ME. What do you mean we can have a show THIS queer? It's all I want now. I ate it up. I smiled so much. I wanted this so badly and had no idea.

5. Interview with the Vampire

Feels like it should be top 3 honestly but I'll get there. This is also a cheat, I've been reading the Vampire Chronicles since I was like 15. Growing up with Anne Rice probably messed me up but hey at least I have great taste. And seeing them on screen? The way they made it BETTER? And Lestat?? Who has been haunting me for 15 years on and off??? And the second season and their reunion and and and?????????? I'm STILL insane about them and will be forever, I'm afraid.

4. Doctor Who

Listen. Listen. Okay. Yeah. What can I say? If you get into it, you're doomed. And I have been doomed for 10 years at least. I stopped watching for a while and got back last year, and it hit me all over again. I love this dumbass genius alien in a way that's calm, even. Just a permanent part of who I am now.

3. The Untamed

The year was 2022, it had been a while since I had a proper fixation and I didn't think it would happen with this danmei live-action, but then came Wei Wuxian. Guys, if I tell you I fell in love. Couldn't stop thinking about him. Everyday I was plagued by his smile and red ribbon and tragic backstory, yadayadayada. I really like other characters too, and their stories, but WWX did something to me that I still don't quite understand.

2. Queer as Folk (US)

This was a looong time ago and it didn't really persist over time like the others, but it was my first actual obsession. I was clinically insane over these gays. I had no one to talk to about them, so for every episode I wrote several pages of notes to comment to my (only) friend at school the next day, the poor thing. It was pretty much all I talked about because I spent EVERY MINUTE we had to talk going over the notes and explaining the episode. Like, between classes, during breaks, everything. Months of that. She held on firmly because she was a good friend, but I'm aware it must've been terrible. Like I said, insane.

1. Dead Boy Detectives

Maybe I'm putting this up here because it's my current hyperfixation? Maybe. But I don't think I have felt something hit as strongly as this since QaF over there. This time I can participate in fandom so I don't need to write every thought I have because it's all a big talk anyway, but I'm still pretty much having those thoughts all the time for *checks notes* nearly three months. I'm writing more than I have in years. I'm back at Tumblr after I don't know how long. I'm staring at GIFs over and over like I have the fucking time for that. I'm distracted at work daily. I talk about it in therapy. I have the main cast's notifications on. I'm getting involved in fandom discourse sometimes even knowing I shouldn't. It's a nightmare. I love it. I love them.

If you read all of this, congrats! Now you know how my mind works, kinda!! I'm open to talk about any and all of these shows. It's amazing how they mess us up. It's also scary, but anyway.

[sophsun1]

the podcast episode is called 'Fleet Rarity' btw since someone asked.

seems like the podcast was an amazing time for the fandom. sounds very fun. i only recently finished the show even though I was aware of it for a while! as a queer person it's shocking how relevant it still is and i haven't seen anything like it. loved it.

hey anon!

oh, thank you for the episode link it's much appreciated. I'm glad you enjoyed watching the show, it's great seeing even one more person become aware of it. it's a shame qaf isn't that popular on here, but also i wouldn't wanna hear a lot of the discourse if it was.

the cast isn't in the public eye and gale and randy are notoriously private, so the podcast was a bright little moment of fun for everyone to bond over for a bit.

yeah, a lot of it is unfortunately becoming relevant again due to the political climate and as much as it has it's problems as does every bit of media, it really was a ground breaking show for it's time. i would implore everyone to watch it, it's got a great cast and so many iconic moments and quotes.

brian kinney was the blueprint for many a blorbo that came after him and he will always be that bitch 😌

[scarefox]

People /BL babies/ complaining about the level of explicitly in dramas like Playboyy just feels for me like as if there was an asian remake of Queer As Folk and these same people would complain about THAT for having so much sex in it for a """BL""". (because imagine if QaF would come out in asia today, you would get the same discourse around it)

That's how mindboggling this discourse is for me.

DISCLAIMER: it is totally fine if you are not into watching sex scnes. Like I literally did not watch Game of Thrones back then because of that reason. But then it is just not for you and you move on and leave everyone who wants to watch / create it, be.

[gayharoldlll]

Ok, I'll bite. To beat Brian into something he isn't is a disservice to the character and the show, specifically because QaF does such a good job at repeatedly testing the limits of empathy and, as such, creates new axioms and intermingles make-believe and make-belief—in and of itself a marker of excellency when it comes to this kind of stories. Sure, you centre your story around the three Ps, and you do so without judgment. You also show the lasting impact of the AIDS crisis, simultaneously problematising post-AIDS discourses, forcing the characters and the audience by proxy to further deconstruct their prejudices and assumptions on patienthood and illness (it's jolly nice to have grand ideals, yet their implementation is unrealistic because people are inherently biocultural creatures). You also have a deeply flawed and extremely human character at the heart of the story, which is important. One has to trust the writers and take Brian for what he is, subsequent change notwithstanding. Brian-the-Act-turned-Brian-the-Person to appease his dad is as worthy of empathy and understanding as Real-Brian-who strives to reach his full potential/greatness/self-actualisation and has a very big heart. To turn Brian-the-Act-turned-Person into a) a well-adjusted individual (he isn't) b) a paragon of fatherhood (he's hardly a father) c) a good partner (be for fucking real, guys) d) someone whose worst decisions can be only blamed on his friends (lmao, even) is ultimately counterproductive and dangerously close to reinforcing the 'good gays' and 'bad queers' dichotomy that the show itself dismantles, discards, and repeatedly makes fun of. Brian isn't good at the whole life thing, he's not even remotely well-adjusted. People can yell slut shaming all they want, the character's attachment to the utopian dream of the 1970s, to the drug-fuelled disco hedonism, is not a good thing. Brian is aware of how things work (and he's the only one who warns Justin that outing Hobbs was a terrible move), Babylon is a form of escapism from his past and collective trauma. Being there offers a semblance of comfort as liminal places often do and, sure, fucking everything that moves is a way to tell people to stick it but it is also a world that drags him farther and farther away from everything he wants, a world that Brian never manages to leave behind. It's not about having fun. It's the fact that when Brian repeatedly turns himself into the-good-time-had-by-all-every-night, it becomes an act of self-annihilation so drastic and severe that he rewrites his entire identity day and night, barricading all exits from the circuit.

[doublel27]

Thank you for this. I’ve seen some interesting takes and been curious after I enjoyed watching my silly disaster queers romp. Especially as going into it, I had seen a lot of Nick deserved better posts and then the instant I actually watched episode one I was like: Nick is wildly unethical and inappropriate and a little bit of a stalker. I mean, Mark is such a cutie pie that he still looks somewhat innocent, but like, Nick is unhinged.

Which is to say, while having not experienced this live in this fandom, I have experienced this in other fan spaces.

I feel like there is…something I have noticed the closer fannish spaces feel to the creators through social media, form parasocial relationships with actors, and the more we lose a space for solid analysis/discourse, the more people have EXPECTATIONS in all capital letters. And sometimes when those are not met, especially if it impinges upon an actor/character a person is very attached to, I feel like it can create a wild response that has nothing to do with the textual reality of what is happening in the text. Especially in a text that’s released in installments which gives people a chance to set new expectations between every part that very well may never be met because that wasn’t where the text was actually going.

I also feel there’s been a loss of nuance over time that has added to this. Particularly around issues that people already have sensitivities with: drug/alcohol abuse, sex/cheating, arguments in a relationship. Which leads to certain characters getting demonized over others. I’ve also seen this in numerous fandoms and it’s really sad.

And like specifically how that has fannish implications around any character that is less than perfect or doesn’t apologize correctly when they mess up or doesn’t have the words to process their problems with partners/friends in therapy speak when some of these characters have never considered therapy.

It’s the mess that allows them to grow and change as characters. And there’s not a right way to grow and fix your problems. These characters from Only Friends could have solved 85% of all of their issues through better communication and boundaries, but they didn’t, because of their own insecurities, hang ups and personal mess.

And that doesn’t mean you have to like them, but at least hate characters for valid reasons.

It’s funny that the two main couples ending up together makes it not queer media when I’ve got so many queer weddings under my belt in western queer media or death, so you know. I prefer this ending in committee relationships.

Only Friends reminded me a lot of Queer as Folk US, and I say that knowing I am a western viewer and that’s probably an oversimplification. But the Boston/Nick relationship reminded me a lot of Brian/Justin, where you have a younger character(Nick feels young) obsessed/stalk a very promiscuous, not interested in relationships man. And the textual treatment of Boston where all of his friends shamed him for his slutty ways and the fannish need to excuse adorable Nick for his stalking crimes, felt very in line with 2000s QaF(US), and when you consider that while the TV landscape was wildly different (2000s us vs current Thai), the political realm for queer people in 2000 US was not super far from current Thailand (marriage equality, trans rights to change birth certificate etc). As does Ray’s crush on Mew remind me very tangentially of Michael’s crush on Brian (different glomming on reasons but glomming on all the same). And both main couples ended up married at the end of the show that was considered the flagship queer show in the US.

All that to say, a show is not just the text of the show but the wider context of the media landscape, the production team, the reference material, the cultural mores (I just watched Perth Nakhun talk about My Engineer and the ways that some things that international fans label toxic are considered normal in Thai culture) and the political and social context. And then on top of that, being able to separate the text from yourself, and not feel that you are owed what you expected.

But that’s a lot of silly rambling to say thank you for answering my ask, even if I didn’t live it with this I have lived it in many others, and allowing me to ramble back at you as I have joined this space in the after. 💜

Okay, now I wanna know more about this tag. It’s been haunting me since this morning (as someone who watched and enjoyed after the fact).

honestly it’s hard to explain if you didn’t experience it, but while the show was airing there were some absolutely BONKERS takes going around to the point it genuinely made me wonder if we were watching the same show. like namely a lot of the out there ones were coming from f*rceb*ok stans, but there were some that persisted from people that were pretty neutral on ships and just tried to come off as being super great at analysis but it was so odd.

like we had people claiming mew and top never played games with each other and that they weren’t toxic at all, people thinking sand was like genuinely still into boeing, people that thought ray blowing up at sand after finding out about the deal with his dad was because he viewed sand as an object, people that thought nick was totally innocent and that boston was the actual devil despite everyone else doing the exact same shit he did in their own ways. also people that said it wasn’t real queer media because sandray and topmew ended up together which was like ?? huh

like there were so many people watching that show just half paying attention or trying to make fanfiction out of the show and calling it canon and it absolutely boggles my mind. like SO MANY people left that show angry/pissed and still hold grudges against and i’m just like. well maybe if you actually took the show for what it was instead of coming up with things that didn’t exist and expecting an outcome based on that it wouldn’t have been so disappointing

[winderlylandchime]

I'd like to know your opinion about Ethan "Ian" as a character and his storyline in general. Aside for all the cheating plot, how long do you think Justin would have stayed with him? I feel like the writers took the easy way out here. Also I would've preferred it if Brian hadn't interfered with the "there's nothing noble about being poor" speech. It seemed a little ooc. I was so proud of him until this little thing.

Hi there! Sorry for the delay in answering! I got my second vaccine two days ago and yesterday I was a miserable pile of achey joints and fever (to be expected, far better than covid, would 10/10 do it again, will still be wearing a mask and distancing...)

Ahhhh season 3.

First off, can we discuss the writers and how the Jewish characters they wrote (Ethan/Ian and Melanie) were not anyone’s favorites? Ick.

Secondly, I see so much potential in this arc. Justin, at 19, should have the opportunity to experience monogamy, to experience someone who uses their words in a traditional sense to express affection, to experience a more traditional relationship with someone his age and at his life experience. I wish he could have experienced all that and then rejected it because it wasn’t him. (would have saved us all the season 5 heartbreak too)

But no, the writers chose to do two things that spoiled this: gave Ethan a career making contract that require he remain closeted and then had him cheat on Justin. The contract was really the game changer. That Ethan didn’t value his identity enough to turn it down for himself but only for Justin set up a super unhealthy dynamic (Justin forever feeling guilty for taking this chance from Ethan, Ethan eventually resenting Justin when he doesn’t get another big break). I think Brian pushing Ethan to take the contract was more to demonstrate that Justin couldn’t go back into the closet, for Ethan or anyone. I didn’t see it out of character for Brian, who is always working behnd the scenes to do things for (in his view) the good of the people he loves (e.g. getting Melanie to return to Linds, saving Ted from Stockwell, throwing the birthday party for Michael and outing him to his coworker, getting Emmett to forgive Ted, even paying Justin for the Carnivale poster). What did seem OOC is that Ethan, the proud descendent of a Holocaust survivor, would sacrifice his identity for success.

And the cheating. Ethan cheating on Justin just muddied things. Sure it demonstrated to Justin that words are cheap and that Brian never lied to him but it made it so he didn’t experience true monogamy. so Justin didn’t leave becasue he decided monogamy wasn’t for him. He didn’t leave because he couldn’t be with someone who would ask him to go back into the closet. He left because he was cheated on. Not that that isn’t a good and valid reason to leave! But in terms of character growth, all Justin gets is Brian never lied to him.

In terms of fics that deal well with the whole Ethan thing.

I really like this reimagining: Homecoming by LaVieEnRose (M, 14364 words) I know I’ve recc’d it a million times but it’s so well done and it’s one of a very few fics that doesn’t treat Ethan like a cartoon character villain.

And this one has Justin and Ethan breaking up for other reasons (I believe she wrote it after season 2 so no one knew how their relationship would play out) and the difficult journey of Brian and Justin reuniting. Of note, the link leads to another tumblr post with Myrna’s 4 part series linked there and in order. Because it’s not on AO3, I don’t know word count or rating, but it’s so so so well written.

This is a WIP by @lostcol that also deals wonderfully with the Ethan arc! (M, 27864 so far)

[caravaggiosbrushes]

i have completely forgotten about qaf! i think i watched it a bit too young so it was a little too much™, but looking back, brian kinney, what an icon, very powerful of you to pick him! god, i should rewatch it when i have time

Pls do rewatch it!! I rewatch it 3-4 years ago and it was SO COOL to see everything again 😭😭😭 i found it in streaming somewhere! Highly highly recommended rewatch, I'd die for all of them (except for michael who sometimes is too whiny ehhh)

[oidickhead]

Having Thoughts about Brian not having come out to his family yet in S1 and how his whole coming out plotline still feels quite fresh

We've been fed this neoliberal narrative of self made gays who cathartically come out at the dinner table as if that's the be all end all of being a queer teen when it's so unrealistic and straight up dangerous for so many people and just not what happens in real life. Most people's coming out stories are messy and they go back and forth, people go back in the closet or only come out to friends but not family or an infinite variation of those things! And i really appreciate how the show never for a second frames it as a matter of shame or like he's not "valid" (🤢 imagine validity discourse in qaf 🤢) actually by giving the "I never came out" plotline to the most radical queer of the show. It would have been so different if they'd chosen to give it to idk Ted, cause it would have been a matter of him being once again weak and pathetic and a cowardly conformist. But with Brian it's a matter of his parents being abusive assholes and even when he comes out it *doesn't* go well but it's also not scary or dramatic cause he waited until he was independent and ready to do it and they had no power over him. Probably the healthiest thing Brian has ever done in this show tbh.

[classic-maya]

young gays need to watch QaF to rid them of the absolute brainrot discourse on TikTok about what it means to be queer

[sixstepsaway]

Great post about purity culture in fandom! If you don't mind me adding on, I think another major contributor is Baby's First Literary Criticism. It as been common online to see people critiquing media through queer, feminist, etc. perspectives, and a push for diversity and positive representation of marginalized groups. Problem is, they use that purity culture framing instead of viewing these issues at the complicated, nuanced matters they are. It doesn't allow room for a particular piece of media to be good in one way or lacking in another. It doesn't take into account that one person from a marginalized group's real experience is another's tired trope. If you try hard enough you can make everything problematic. For example, is it reasonable to argue that Ed is a problematic stereotype of as moc because he is a violent pirate? Well, it's a pirate show about pirates. Lucius might be considered the 'gay best friend' for constantly giving advice, but does that really count when all his friends are also gay? And this stuff is so nuanced it's easy to pick and choose what argument is affective against your least favorite show/character/ship/etc. Voila, now everyone who likes, uh, Blackhands is a racist, homophobic, misogynistic abuse apologist. -dd anon

Oh you are absolutely right and you should say it.

I saw someone saying how nice it is to have OFMD because until OFMD the only queer shows we had were things like Queer as Folk and they said how Queer as Folk was bad rep and cringe and bad

and I wanted to scream because Queer as Folk is not bad rep! QaF was representative of a lot of gay communities. Queer people didn't have marriage equality and couldn't adopt, so they didn't ride the heterosexual relationship escalator instinctively, and so their lives ended up looking entirely different. Club culture and promiscuity was a big part of queer culture even as recently as 2005 (and I would argue it still is) and a lot of that is to do with the conversations that go on at those places about consent or just because going to a gay club you are surrounded by other queer people, instead of having to hope and pray someone is like you at a coffee shop.

Good rep vs bad rep is a reductive argument, in my eyes. The issue is quantity rather than quality, which I realize is backwards to how it usually is, but... in a show like OFMD, where you have [frantic finger counting] I'm willing to say fourteen main characters all of which are stated word of god to be queer in some way? One of them bodying the trope of 'gay best friend' doesn't actually matter

because he's just one among many. I'm-- Okay, my labels are many because my brain is a mess, but to boil it down to something simple I'm a bi ace agender/maybe genderfluid person (idk i havent dug enough into my gender stuff yet i've been putting it off like a knitting project), and I do not fucking care about the discourse around Toni Topaz or Jughead Jones

let me explain: in Riverdale there are two characters I just mentioned. Toni Topaz is bisexual and Jughead Jones in the original comics was asexual but has been in sexual and romantic relationships in the TV show.

Lots of people yell that Jughead isn't rep and he could've been, how upset they are he wasn't made ace like the comics, etc etc

I don't because I am an ace person who has had sex and relationships and plans to do so in the future

so Jughead boning Betty in s1 does not bad ace rep make. He's never looked at Betty or whoever and gone (as far as I know, I'm behind on the show), "Man, I am so cishet. I am so sexually attracted to you in an allosexual manner." though I wouldn't put it past the writers to have him say something like that lmao

so maybe he isn't sexually attracted to her but enjoys sex with her anyway. Maybe he isn't romantically attracted to her but loves her anyway (though asexual =/= aromantic but that's beside the point)

and Toni Topaz has been criticized for being a "slutty bisexual stereotype" or whatever, but... she's fine? She's just... a person living her life? She fucks Jughead, she fucks her girlfriend, she fucks... idk, I think she has a boyfriend now I'M BEHIND OKAY

to me that isn't bad rep it's just... a character. Potentially not a well-written character because Riverdale (again, I am behind, maybe it's not as bad as I imagine) but still just... a character

When the 100 killed off Lexa, the issue wasn't that they killed A Lesbian, the issue was they killed the only lesbian, thus taking away 100% of the lesbians from that show at the time (though I think Niylah became a main character later? I don't know. She was just a one or two-off at the time iirc). plus the writer was a toxic piece of shit about lexa and wielded her as a way of getting his follower count up on twitter and then killed her off but that too is beside the point

We don't need good rep or to delete all bad rep from the universe. We need more rep, period. We need more lesbians and more gays and more bis and more queers and more people of color and so on. We need shows with diverse casts to be so common we don't have a metric fucktonne of people looking at OFMD and hoping for Perfect Rep because it's all they're getting.

Queer as Folk's characters felt real. They felt like real people. Brian's fear of getting old (I had the realization the other day that he was, in fact, 29, and I nearly cried), Mikey's fear of being alone, Ben's fear of bringing Mikey down with him, Justin's fear of never being loved, etc etc. None of them were good or bad rep, they just were, much like the characters in OFMD.

Assuming the party line of 'Izzy is a homophobic homosexual', are (general) you telling me you've never met a homophobic homosexual in your life? Bet you have. Lots of us have. Izzy isn't good or bad rep, he's just a guy, and a guy who could easily exist in real life, flaws and warts and all. Violent men of color exist just as much as cute lute-playing men of color do.

Good rep is not a goal we will ever achieve because the goalposts will always change. The quantity of rep, the variety of characters of color, the variety of queer characters, the variety of queer characters of color are what matters the most.

We need more rep, not to be cherrypicking and pruning the rep that looks a little ugly on the outside to some people.

Real people look ugly on the outside to some people, too.

[olderthannetfic]

Do you know what Queer as Folk fandom was like? I'm curious whether there was top/bottom discourse in a fandom where the source material is so explicit and open about gay sex.

--

I remember knowing tons of QaF US fans, but I don't know the wanks. I think a lot of it was people shipping that main ship with the douche and the teenager vs. people shipping the douche with his other options? There was also some QaF US vs. UK wank I vaguely recall.

[sophsun1]

I LOVE that you're back to qaf giffing. Don't get me wrong, I love most shows you gif, but qaf has such a hold on me, I swear. I watched it first when I was 16 and I'm turning 35 next month?!? And I still know so much dialogue by heart. It truly was something so special and I appreciate you spending so much time making gifs when no one else does.

Hey anon!

Well, thank you so much for saying that and you're in for a treat then because I'll be back to posting multiple gifsets a day as I slowly make my way through the seasons. Obviously it's impossible for me to gif every moment but i shall be doing the greatest hits as it were.

I wish it was more popular on here but also at the same time I'm kinda glad it's not because the discourse would kill me. I'm very thankful and grateful for my loyal qaf followers who still reblog and comment and I'm so happy to provide this service for you guys 💛

It's true once you watch qaf it just never leaves you.

[bisexualdawnsummers]

queer as folk us for the ships thing, pretty please! my kingdom for a horse, i mean, for your brikey discourse! (well and for any other qaf related from you) thank you! xx

• otp – BRIKEY!!! (Shocking, I know.) They are just the epitome for me. They are the blueprint. I am endlessly fascinated by the idea of these two. It’s not unrequited love, so much as love unfulfilled imo. I do personally believe that they are both in love with each other, but what keeps them from crossing the line beyond strictly friendly territory are their own personal fears and insecurities, as well as their differing views on love and relationships. If they decided to try for ‘something more’ and it didn’t work out for whatever reason, they might lose each other, and neither could stand that. It’s almost like they love each other too much to be together. But regardless of whether or not they ever consummate their relationship, it doesn't really matter, they will always be each other's person. Always have, always will. The Brian and Mikey show will go on forever. Like I said, I'm obsessed fascinated.

• favourite canon pairing – This is a bit tricky because it depends on what counts as ‘canon’. Does that mean an explicitly sexual/romantic relationship, or is the strongly implicit love between two people enough to be seen as canon? For me, it’s the latter, so I would say Brikey. But if it’s the former then I’ll go for Ted/Emmett.

• worst pairing ever – B/J. I'll just say they're not for me and leave it at that.

• guilty pleasure pairing – Ted/Justin. I’m not sure if I would call it a guilty pleasure so much as an absolute crackship that I find interesting. I think it started with this interview where Scott and Randy joked about Ted and Justin’s secret relationship which spawned a couple of fics that I read and enjoyed.

• a pairing you want to see more – Justin/Ethan. That relationship had a lot of potential(IMO). But, also Brikey, of course, I could never get enough of them.

• that pairing everyone likes but you’re like “lol no” – B/J

• favorite non-romantic pair – This is probably the toughest one to answer because I love almost all of the non-romantic pairs on this show, but I’ll go with Ted/Brian, I just find their dynamic really interesting.

Thank you, Anon! I always enjoy discussing brikey/qaf. I hope you enjoyed my ramblings. :)

[gayharoldlll]

With all due respect, I see where you’re coming from but firmly believe that reducing QaF to the tensions between assimilation and liberation is reductive, not to mention a disservice to the characters, the show, and the writers. Because it relies too much on the distinction between ‘good gays’ and ‘bad queers’. Because Brian is too messy a character to fit the ‘liberation mold’. Because people insist on using it to cast CowLip as cartoonish villains, losing sight of the very human aspects of the story. You may or may not agree with their choices—and it may or may not make you sound like a Robert Rodi character—but by God, did they know what kind of story they were writing and why. Overall, one simply has to trust them.

There are three pressing issues that shape Brian and the depiction of homosexuality by proxy:

1) QaF inserts itself into a rich tapestry of intertextuality. Pick any novel written between 1970 and 1981, and you’ll discover a continuum that hinges on drug-fuelled disco hedonism laid bare. This isn’t to say that you need to be well-versed in queer literature or have a PhD, fuck that, but you must watch the show rationally: disco hedonism is not fun (Brian himself doesn’t have that much of a good time). In and of itself it is symptomatic of queer liberation yet its inherent excess is immediate and unromantic. You fall into an orgy room, find heaven, reassert your right to exist—openly, without guilt—outside hegemony. However, is more sex really more liberating? You can fuck the Village People one at a time, try every scene before you’re thirty, join the cult of youth and beauty, and tell society to suck it. Fun! Then what? And, more importantly, is that Life? Many a writer tried to provide an answer, not that it ever led to a definitive answer.

CowLip discuss the three Ps (pederasty, pornography, promiscuity) in such a neutral manner that they become, as in life, mere facts. There’s no garden variety sex-negativism, which would be counterproductive: everything is common, unremarkable and, as such, revolutionary. But is it uncritical? The non judgemental approach to sex ultimately discloses the dark underside of life as a circuit queen. There’s sex and sex. Turning yourself into a good-time-had-by-all-every-night, seeing yourself and others as nothing but pieces of meat, is an act of self-annihilation so extreme it cuts any relationship short ere it flourishes. Hell, ere it even begins. Doesn’t Brian get farther and farther away from the real thing, losing his identity, the more time he spends as the star of the aesthetic centre of the universe? Half the time, doesn’t he do it because he doesn’t know how to handle his own feelings? Brian repeatedly cuts himself off from the world, killing himself with a lifestyle that is as life-affirming as it is life-denying all in the name of self-preservation.

2) QaF problematizes post-AIDS discourses (‘End of AIDS’ and subsequent misconceptions). HIV is classifiable as a chronic disease but is it ordinary? Is it mainstream? Aren’t patients vulnerable to human rights violations even now, even in the Global North? Overall, the show is effective because of its specificity and clear perspective, neither of which are outdated (and I could shout this until I’m blue in the face). HIV/AIDS looms over the characters and, sure, there’s HIV+ characters, barebackers and breeders (and the latter’s position outside hetero- and homonormative systems), but there's also collective trauma—it looms over their lives. The show restates that it’s a matter of bad luck, not promiscuity, and there isn’t a single profile. The lack of desexualisation and PC images enhances this and serves a twofold scope: it forces the audience to reassess their discomfort and prejudices; it forces you to think about these characters’ relationship with sex. Is it political? An act of self-destruction? Escapism? Or, in the timeless words of Gale Harold, simply something people across the world do? From a writing point of view, sure it’s political mainly because people at large do not want to think about gays having sex. But for the characters? Eh, yes and no. Because sex is not activism, the global sphere isn’t capable of taking care of itself (and this is what season 5 is about). The characters have sex at different times for different reasons.

I think we can all agree on that, but doesn’t Brian occasionally use it as a way to accelerate his self-destruction and escape from himself and real life? Sure, Brian doesn’t play Russian Roulette with his cock. He always uses a condom and they make a point of showing it to you. Only later, we find out that this isn’t always the case because oral doesn’t give you anything. Or does it? Brian gets syphilis. He is lucky and irresponsible (when Ben yells at him it’s not slutshaming it’s the truth and he should have doubled down, burning down the mythological figure of the ideal patient) and it does create a pattern. Of course, when you're being murdered left and right and carry the weight of communal trauma, you do have the right to parade your rights and escape the horrors as you please. When things get bad, he rushes to Babylon to lose himself. More than once, he fucks around to make a point and cling to a mawkish feeling of being in the right. That’s not activism, that’s not even living your life. It’s sex to avoid commitment and responsibility and it always leads him dangerously close to the point of no return.

3) QaF is a show about trauma and how shitty beginnings may cripple us for life. This is so intrinsic to Brian’s character to become the main driving force, preventing any proper political reading of the character. Throughout the show, Brian’s main objective is to not become Jack Kinney—something at which he fails spectacularly (when he punches Michael in the face, as deserved as you may believe it to be, it’s not a victory). Brian also wants to appease his father (and, let’s face it, straight men at large), virtually indistinguishable from telling him to suck it, and consequently turns himself into the Kinsey 6 version of the alpha male when, by nature, he isn’t. This is an act that, in the long run, becomes the person to such an extent that even Michael of all people can no longer excuse it into oblivion. Brian doesn’t do relationships and doesn’t do marriage, true, but how much of his reluctance stems from liberation and how much from his inability to totally embrace love when it shows up ad nihilum in his life because he fears that any relationship would recreate his parents’ marriage? His heart is in the right place but that doesn’t mean that such abnegation is right. Firstly, because one should always raze the sanctuary, pitch your evils there. Secondly, because none of the parties involved are actually happy.

There’s something pathological about Brian denying himself and others happiness (and the thing with Justin could have been some tabula rasa insofar as there was nothing to lose) out of fear. He is not making some grand statement about queer liberation and rights (and this from a guy who almost got Stockwell elected), he’s paralyzed and soon learns that you cannot live on the promise of a distant future because at some point others will leap feet first into the unknown. Brian does sabotage his relationship with Justin because he needs to make a point at every turn. Brian is the scorned lover (“go back to your wife and kid”). Brian is throwing a tantrum because he’s jealous of Ben. So, does Brian really hate Stepford fags? Does he really believe that they’re closet straights that there’s anything wrong with Straight middle-class time (which, as Michael points out, is ultimately about wanting the same legal rights)? And why can’t he imagine something better, namely allow himself to feel something other than shitty all the time? There is queer liberation at play in the show, but Brian isn't an emblem of it even if, on surface level, he is the most obsessive participant (yet the whole “I’m a cocksucker, I’m queer” speech is made to an audience of one!) because his reaction to Michael is inextricable from his feelings for Michael: it’s irrational, all instinct, private history and extremely loaded at that and, as such, should not be taken as an emblem of anything but pure Erlebnis in the Baumanian sense of the word. 

The final sequence at Babylon remains the most exquisite and coherent moment in the history of television because you know that it could not have ended any other way. Brian dancing alone is less a reversal to his former self and a seemingly uncritical acceptance of life on the circuit than winning back all the possibilities he and Justin exhausted, including the possibilities of touch (their final sex scene is a last rite; or, to put it crudely, entirely a pity fuck). Sure, Brian will always be the doomed circuit queen whose inability to leave Babylon behind implies a larger, tragic inability to pledge his allegiance to a different system of value. The significant thing, however, is that the queeny life of pleasure does not kill him as it may have done once, a long time ago; on the contrary, he is coming back from the limits, in and of itself a herculean task if you consider that he was on the brink of ruining two lives in one go (again). Brian making a comeback and Justing fucking off to go live his life away from Brian and from Pittsburgh is the only possible outcome—no, they are not getting married, and, no, they will never see or hear from each other again. The most important things in QaF were a) Justin growing up and leaving and b) Brian saving himself, and he does repeatedly, encouraged and spurned by Michael. He can only be himself when Michael's there, and the fact that they are together at the very end is indication enough that Brian-the-Act no longer overlaps with Brian-the-Person (and for the majority of season 5, that was not the case). For as long as Brian's with Michael, aware of their fraught history and the messiness of his own feelings, Brian can exist as a person, allow himself to be vulnerable, and drop the act. By the time "Proud" starts playing, you know that that is the final victory or the next best thing and are left with the bittersweet feeling that maybe all of this could have been avoided had Brian broken free of conditioning not by becoming a doomed circuit queen but by embracing the attraction that Newton left out.