#a gameplay/story segregation thing

[kissandra-pentagasp]

Danis: you can't have dogs in Baldur's Gate

guard: sorry, can't let any animals larger than a cat into the city

Alice, rocking up with a dog, an owlbear cub, a man who feels more comfortable wildshaped into a bear, a woman who can turn into a panther, and enough jars of True Soul tadpoles that she could start a small cult of her own: Skill Issue

[mabaris]

also interesting for harding to mention “ice arrows” when ammunition hasn’t been a thing since origins

[crossdressingdeath]

One thing that bothers me about Alfira's death (other than, y'know, everything about Alfira's death) is that I still had disadvantage on the stealth check to hide the body? I have disadvantage on stealth checks because my armour makes a lot of noise, this makes sense. But I'm not actually... wearing armour in this scene...? Like, it's still equipped, but.

You can see that I am not wearing armour. I think I understand why I'm still getting the disadvantage, I assume the armour is still equipped and still affecting my stats even though the character model isn't using it because your armour and your camp clothes are two different gear layouts that are both active regardless of which layout the model is using (and depending on what gear you've got equipped that would actually be a boon in some situations!), but it feels like an oversight that I'm getting disadvantage for wearing armour in a scene where I'm visibly not wearing armour.

[astorythatwritesitself]

Adrian Shepard: 'helping Schells cheat thr casino will improve salarian & human relations right'

[goodshipskypirate]

Welp, I think I found the character I like the least. I wouldn't have mind her saying "trope", even if the word immediately broke my immersion, except her entire gimmick is pointing out and lampshading JRPG mechanics. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. It is annoying and not funny.

Sea of Stars has been earnest and sincere in its tribute to SNES JRPGs, including the weird gameplay vs. story segregation contrast, and its willingness to stick by its paint-the-numbers plot. Having someone constantly shoot out the irony behind them in-universe feels like a counterbalance to what the creators are trying to achieve. It's like they had to put in at least one character to be a sardonic jackass just so they can let us know that yes, we are aware the price for swords and whatnot increase higher and higher as you progress no matter where you are/if it makes sense within the economy.

Embrace all the sincere, man! You're doing good. You don't need a fourth wall breaking character constantly referencing all the kooky stuff that reoccurs in JRPG. I rag on about the game's banal plot, but at least it feels tonally appropriate to its setting and all things considered, endearing in its own way. I don't know, it just feels insincere, is all.

Man, I hope Yolande's relevance is only specific to this part of the plot. The pirate crew kind of has that Ragtag Group of Comedic Misfits Who Will Reappear Multiple Times Throughout The Game As A Running Gag kinda thing going and I'd be all for it, because pirates, but not if it means having to listen to Yolande yap about why a hermit living away from civilization charges you a million gold for the Ultimate Weapon or some shit.

By the way, I'm aware of the irony of decrying a character that lampshades RPG tropes when I'm doing the same, so don't bother pointing that out.

[aheathen-conceivably]

What led you to taking the family from New Orleans to New Mexico?

Thanks for the question, my dear! It honestly hurt my heart to do so, since my own love and attachment to New Orleans is woven so strongly through the 1920s. But I knew from the get-go we’d be leaving the city for a couple reasons….

One, I simply can’t stay in the same sims world for too long. I’m like this in gameplay, but I learned in the 1900s-1910s that that instinct is even stronger in storytelling. Being able to find new angles, builds, lots, lighting, etc. is part of the fun and really makes me look forward to moving the story forward. Likewise, I really like the clear visual distinction of a new world every decade or so (because it won’t always be exactly every ten years), as it creates visual chapters and keeps things feeling fresh for me and I hope, y’all too!

But more specifically, I always knew that many of the end goals of the 1920s would require leaving New Orleans. One was Antoine’s toxic attachment to his past, and his need to let go of that in order to move forward. The other one, and arguably the biggest, was to end the decade with Antoine proposing to Zelda. As I discussed in detail here, this was not possible in New Orleans. Likewise, I did not want Violette’s formative years to be marked by legally mandated segregation (especially in school), so that she could have more freedom in her story and identity.

Now if you look at the map in the post linked above, you’ll see that the choices of where to move them is not exactly plentiful. The easiest choice would have been the Northeast, but I knew pretty early on that I wanted to have a desert backdrop for the 1930s. Thematically, I think it harkens to the images that we associate with this decade and also the concept of the American West, which by the 1930s is beginning to be exposed as a myth (this is a theme I find fascinating and y’all will see as the years go by). Its also meant to provide a heavy contrast to the warm, tropical air of New Orleans, and how that climate kind of intersects with the idea of decadence in the 1920s.

As far as sim-specifics, I try and look at all the worlds and see what can realistically be used for what decade and geographic location. From the get-go I was intrigued by Strangerville, since it’s a world I never really play in and the military base has some good story potential (oh? Is that a spoiler you say? 👀). I also don’t see it used that often, and I especially think the downtown is so cinematic. This really fell in line with the ideas I already had about leaving New Orleans and the themes of the West, so I referenced the map in the linked post, and ultimately decided on New Mexico. Then with subsequent research and studying Strangerville’s landscape (namely the rocks and the road and how I could incorporate that into the story), I finally placed the town in the Northwestern corner of the state, with easy road access both North and West for wherever the next decade takes us 😉

[askkrenko]

So like, where do the millions of goblin tokens you summon come from?

Are they your kids?

Friends?

Some sort of magical barracks similar to clash of clans?

Or maybe even just having the number of millions of goblins from infinite planes to get your troops needed after tapping you 3-5 times.

Also what happens to the remaining goblins after I win?

Do they all die?

Do they all clock out?

Are they just stuck?

Alright, lets start with a brief explanation of gameplay and story segregation. Just because you as a player can have a game where I summon literally infinite goblins doesn't mean there ARE literally infinite goblins. Just like you can theoretically have three different Krenkos on board, or you can have a snake wearing boots, sometimes things don't quite line up.

That said, I do have well over a thousand goblins I can call upon. Where do they come from? Ravnica. They're my boys. I'm the Mob Boss, the Kingpin, the Baron of Tin Street. I have guys, dudes, goons, flunkies, thugs, henchmen, whatever you want to call them, and that's all them. I'm the only one who cares about the guildless goblins on this godsforsaken plane, and they come when I call because they know what's good for Krenko is good for goblins.

As for what happens after you win, well, we all go home. Same things that happens to most summoned things after the battle's done. Then we usually go get drinks and make fun of whoever was in the duel, including the one who summoned me to begin with. Unless it's a total babe, in which case we make increasingly lewd comments until we collapse into a pile of laughter.

[twothpaste]

the fucked up thing about kumatora in mother 3 is that the game gives her pretty much no opportunity to grieve the loss of her family. paradoxically, the compelling thing about kumatora in mother 3 is, oh, fucking god, she does not take any opportunities to grieve the loss of her family. it's one of those gameplay-story-segregation things, where you can guess the devs didn't have time to flesh out her feelings on screen, or it would've derailed the pacing somewhat. maybe they straight up did her dirty and didn't notice or care to develop it. or maybe, in true mother game fashion, they left it open ended intentionally, so as not to tread on the toes of player interpretation. but good lord, thinkin about this teenager going through exactly what lucas did, and deliberately refusing to deal with it - not yet, at least - is just heartwrenching for me.

going her whole life believing her immortal parental figures would outlive her, only for fate to come crashing down so suddenly? world-ending stakes on the line, with no chance to rest? having to stay strong and "tough it out" for her newly found family's sake?? the weight on this kid's shoulders is immense, and i can't presume she was at all prepared for any of it. there's probably some sad horrible parallel with claus in there somewhere. what's the difference between tryin to muscle through grief out of childish misconstrued fear, vs doing it out of a selfess sense of duty? is there any? could it break her just as badly, if she ain't careful? i like to imagine a postgame kuma would receive all the support she needs, but man, at that point, does she even know how to accept it?

[drmajalis]

Nightingale (bottom) has more HP than Reed, the Flame Shadow (top) and almost double their defence, before you add trust bonuses. I get that gameplay and story segregation is a thing but this feels to imply that either Liz is a lot tougher than her profile implies, or Reed is in a lot worse shape than they let on.

[taoofshigeru]

I think discussions like this one on OT2 Main Character-ness are interesting, and serve as a jumping-off point for something I wanted to talk about wrt Octopath 2 on the whole.

[spoilers follow]

When I see the specific critique that it's 8 small stories and not one big arc spanning all the characters, and that's a negative, I feel chafed by it for a couple of reasons. I'm going to try to outline them here.

1: In a broad sense, Octopath as a whole is designed such that the world is a major character. Every single NPC, even ones wholly irrelevant to plot or side quests, has a backstory that is at least somewhat carefully considered and some of them were written with Baby Shoes Never Worn ambitions of word count/reader reaction ratios. And it's a big world. It's hard not to get attached to some of it, and the fact that it's pretty doesn't hurt.

2: The way I read it, it's a key facet of OT2's story that there are two competing central themes, not one. The fundamental struggle with the Moonshade Order and HTAPOTCO is about apathy vs. hope. But there's also a broader sense in the world as you explore it that there's a lot of inequity and class/caste segregation. It figures most prominently in Partitio's story, but is also present in Osvald's tour of the sterling state of the prison system and constabulary, as well as the brutal way in which Papa Mishuyo is murdered. The basic question answered through gameplay is:

A) Can our heroes prevent the end of the world? (Yes, answered via gameplay)

In that sense, Ori's failed sacrifice is totally extraneous to the plot. Unless you specifically read it that her not dying led to a weaker Vide coming back (possible, but not confirmed in canon), it doesn't really matter from a gameplay perspective. Either way, you have to rekindle 4 flames and fight a cool boss to set things right. But the specific details of her character arc absolutely matters with regards to the second theme, and the question it asks:

B1) Is the world in its current state worth protecting? And, as an important corollary, B2) How do you convince someone who's experienced the worst the world's had to offer that is worth preserving and trying to improve?

Seeing the horrors of the world inflicted by humans on humans were a big part of how Ori, Oboro, and Trousseau (to an extent) were turned to the Moonshade Order's cause. Castti's very direct answer to question B2 is "Sometimes you can't." Partitio manages to answer the How without even realizing it. Hikari also makes a very serious effort to find this answer for three separate people in his life, and succeeds once (Thanks, Rai Mei). The message that I see the writers trying to land with all this is that you might not be able to convince everyone that the world is worth it, but there is worth in trying.

The message itself is not unique, but I feel it's been uniquely well delivered here.

3: And, conversely, I feel like this narrative goal falls apart if you play through a game with any one of the eight as the primary protagonist from beginning to end. The deeper cuts I don't think can be as easily achieved through a central narrative that ends with one overarching villain serving as a foil for a single protagonist. You need several sympathetic but differing points of view, and several foils to see the world through another's shoes. I think it's a level of nuance and complexity that needed a big world with a lot of people, and individual characters who experience that world differently, in order to really be delivered upon.

Unless the writing is sublime and gets a lot of underlying and dev resource-intensive support from gameplay integration, what you're getting is a game where Hikari is the protagonist and the other seven are co-protagonists. I think Hikari's an interesting character. I think all 8 characters are, but I have issues with making his or any other story the most central one. One of the things I like about a game like say, Final Fantasy 6 is that you do start with Tera and then get forced to use different party members in a way that allows you to see the world from many different points of view. But, this creates a game design issue where you're specifically forced to abandon large swaths of your party composition for story reasons at various points on the plot, which could create consternation for a number of players whose leader just went from level 68 to level 7. I think it can sometimes feel lame how modern rpgs can be allergic to any plot point that requires permanently altering party composition or playstyle, but I do feel it's an understandable constraint of the need to appeal to a broad player base. Within that constraint, there aren't a lot of way to avoid the drawbacks of Main Protagonist Syndrome.

Like, not to pick on Xenoblade Chroncles 3, but it's a recent game that also deals heavily in themes of choosing to exist even if it means struggling through a crappy world, and while it does a lot of things really well, it does suffer for the final villain being essentially The Face of Nihilism with no human traits. There are lots of subvillains in that game with more interesting dynamics, but their contributions to the overall theme didn't hit as strongly with me personally because they were presented in gameplay as optional obstacles on the way to the fight with big generic rather than the final counterpoint at the end of an individual character's journey.

I recognize this is a pretty subjective point. Vide is also The Face of Nihilism with no human traits. But because the individual route antagonists represent and give voice to more human reasons for hating the world, that conversation carried actual emotional weight with me personally.

Likewise, I understand that some people prefer stories with a strongly centralized arc that involves the characters bouncing off each other more. But I feel that OT2, more than just being something unique in the way it's represented, stays dynamic and interesting by bouncing characters both off their antagonists and the world at large, and delivers a pretty special end result.

For all I know, OT3 might never come out, or it might take the franchise in a pretty different direction. But I'm pretty confident the writers and designers of 2 navigated their game design/narrative trade-offs with finesse and knocked it out of the park thematically.

[stairset]

The whole "Disney lightsabers don't cut through people they're like baseball bats!" thing is so funny to me cause like that literally only applies to Fallen Order and Survivor and it's clearly just an example of gameplay and story segregation. Much in the same vein as the Batman and Spider-Man games letting you pull off cool flashy moves that realistically would either kill the enemies or at least cripple them for life and you the player just have to accept that they're just unconscious for a bit and will be fine. Or Mortal Kombat characters having all their bones crushed by X-ray moves and just getting right back up to continue fighting. For you see my friends. This is just how fucking video games work.

[randomnameless]

Tbf to the "how can Bernie hurt and kill Nabateans when their skin is durable enough to break normal weapons" point, that just falls under a case of gameplay and story segregation nearly every other FE game also indulges in, that being "guy immune to all damage, except damage done by the legendary weapons of the protags, can still be hurt and killed by some random iron axe during gameplay"; canonically, Byleth and the house leaders are meant to be the only ones capable of fighting Nabateans, but since the game would get really boring and limiting if that was represented properly in gameplay, especially when modern FE gameplay (and especially 3H) is all about freedom of choice for the player, the students are capable of contributing too.

In ggeneral i'm not fond of gameplay and story segregation - even if I sort of understand it because FE4 is its own thing and iirc some substititutes units have a convo about it, basically, they're just randoms thrown in a battle with super powered humans walking next to them.

Given how FE Fodlan tried to take inspiration from Jugdral but dropped the ball harder than Brazil did in their WC, it plays with the general idea/trend that Fodlan is all about "tell don't play/show" regarding Crests, Relics and what is supposed to be its own lore.

FE16 could have used a middle ground - Bernie can kill Nabateans, but only if she either uses a relic (with its devil axe effect but amped to 11) or a holy weapon, like FE Elibe does it with its legendary weapons - Forblaze is supposed to be used by anyone who has the correct weapon rank to cook dragons, but you're not supposed to throw Oujay with an iron sword at Jahn and expect him to win that match up.

As for canon -

The SoC is supposed to be able to tear through Nabateans, just like Relics (if the Red Canyon is any indication), so it's not only the House Leaders, but everyone who can use a Relic* who could, theoretically, kill Nabateans, not only House Leaders!

*Which is another pet peeve of mine, crestless people cannot use a relic's power to its full might else they become like Beast!Miklan - but maybe gameplay wise they could have implemented a "devil axe" effect to crested weapons used by crestless people, and for crested units, maybe they could lose 20 HP each time they use the special arte (to make a link to Maurice's fate and Catherine's mention at the Relic "eating her soul"). Sure, that would be annoying, but it'd still make Raphael able to kill Rhea (unlike, say, poor Johalva against Julius) but with a lot of luck (tfw devil axe kills you) or even with Bernie borrowing Freikugel.

Johalvan is still useful in FE4 and contributes to the protags reaching the final boss, it's not because he cannot kill Julius that he is completely worthless, but I also understand what you're saying anon, "Modern FE" with all of its parasocial bullcrap really pushes for the player to be able to use their "fave" to end the game, game continuity/lore be damned. Freedom of choice for the player means the game's consistency and story is reduced to pudding : but that's the Fodlan games in a nutshell.

[kyliafanfiction]

When Fallout 76 first got mentioned, and the whole 'you can launch nukes' aspect of the game was announced, etc, people were critical about it. And for some good reasons. But they also bitched about the lore logic of it, and like - that's silly? Video Games are always going to have a certain degree of Gameplay and Story Segregation, for one, and for another, MMOs are especially going to, especially when it comes to PvP type stuff and late endgame content, which the nukes were.

But there was also the contention that the nukes, and the fact that Appalachia isn't really mentioned in Fallouts 3 and 4, meant that obviously Appalachia was going to become a super irradiated hellscape by the time of Fallout 3, at least.

And I understand that argument, but also - not necessarily? Like, that's not a necessary explanation as to where Appalachia is, for Fallouts 3 and 4? Lots of places didn't get mentioned in both games, after all. It's clear that trade and travel between regions, while a thing, is limited. And frankly, given how hard life is, not a lot of people have a lot of mental bandwidth or reason to care about distant regions.

Obviously, the real answer is "the writers hadn't thought of it yet" which is always a valid answer? Serialized... anything is always going to run into that problem, you just have to work with it. Books, shows, movies, games, etc - sometimes, the writers just Didn't Think Of It Before™. Now, good writers will try to provide some explanation, where needed, but 'It just didn't come up' is also acceptable, in many cases.

For Fallout 4, well, Appalachia isn't exactly close to the Commonwealth, so that's why it never comes up? Like, sure, you'd think it would be mentioned, but... it's fine that it wasn't. Or at least mostly fine?

The Argument does have more traction for Fallout 3, since the Capital Wasteland is closer to Appalachia, but equally... it's still not needed? It's eminently believable that Appalachia could be doing mostly fine, even thriving, but the area around the DC ruins isn't. Like, sure, Appalachia probably has problems, but even if a state emerged in the region and got expansionistic, why would they expand into the Capital Wasteland? it's an absolute shit show of a place. Irradiated to hell and back, overrun by super mutants, and what exactly is the draw there? Expanding is expensive, especially in the Fallout Wasteland, so there' has to be a resource incentive to go there.

And the Capital Wasteland, during the game, doesn't really have it. Not on the scale of large states. Unless you know that Liberty Prime is under the Pentagon, anyway, or you're more desperate, or you're concerned about the symbolism of owning the ruins of DC why go there?

Like, even the major settlements of the Capital Wasteland are pretty recent, at least as large hubs - Megaton's wall wasn't built until 2241, and while there were people going back possibly decades more (Manya Vargas's grandfather was purportedly a founder, and she's apparently old in 2277), that still could only be sixty, seventy, eighty years. A 'Generation' is like 20-30 years, or something. Especially given the poor health, low life expectancy and how much the hard living of the wasteland might age someone, it really doesn't have to be that long. And Megaton's hardly worth invading for.

Tenpenny Tower was established by Mr. Tenpenny in his lifetime, and while again, he's old, he also wasn't like, a kid when it did it. Had to be established enough to have the resources to come and build it and all, after all.

Rivet City wasn't a thing until 2239.

So civilization, such as it is, at least beyond subsistence little communities scraping by, is probably not that old, in the Capital Wasteland? And it's not like a lot of people lived there in the short term after the bombs dropped, given how blasted the place was. Heck, in 76, we find out some people are coming from the Capital Wasteland to Appalachia! They literally called the Capital Wasteland "Hell on Earth" so there probably weren't a ton of people for a while in the region.

Appalachia could be doing just fine, chilling, doing their own thing and not really interacting with the Wasteland. There could be some trade happening, those caravans have to get their goods from somewhere outside the wasteland. There's just not a lot of reason to assume that Appalachia absolutely would be interacting with the Capital Wasteland, enough for it to be relevant, or something that would naturally come up in convo with the Lone Wanderer.

Yes, yes, it's 100% possible that Appalachia is a nuked out hellscape by 2277. Or that it's dealing with it's own problems, or that it's overrun by monsters or whatever, or just... not interested. Maybe it's not thriving, but it's still a going concern. But there's no real reason that it has to be that there's nothing there, by the 'present day' of Fallouts 3 and 4.

[madredhattie]

Falling headfirst into submas has actually come with a secondary effect for me in the form of like, really digging into how the world of pokemon could work. The sort of gameplay story segregation stuff, like the idea of ghost types being one of the hardest types to train due to their whole thing, or dragons also being tough because they’re proud and demand respect.

Also ideas about how pokemon fit into the world beyond battling, such as my developing headcanon that specially trained Absols are a common fixture in hospitals, their disaster sense refined to detect patient crashes before they happen so doctors can be alerted. They also make for an excellent means of chasing off any wild ghosts that poke around due to being dark types!

idk, there’s just a lot more to dig into than I ever really thought about before, and it’s exciting! Thank you silly train men for invading my brain

[beevean]

This isn't related to the Samus talk, but on the topic of power scaling, while it's relatively harmless as far as fandom stuff goes, it's a different story when fans get serious about it, since it quickly becomes a "More powerful, thus better character" pissing contest, as opposed to whether they're actually interesting or well-executed. In a franchise like Sonic, which already suffers from being looked at as DBZ With Furries (more than ever now thanks to Frontiers), it's double the headache.

Honestly I simply don't have the patience, because if you want to be serious about it, you have to keep in mind so many scenes, and hope that the factors are consistent (even worse when you're dealing with two different series - this his how you get things like "Giorno Giovanna is the character in anime who has killed the most people because he stuck Diavolo in an infinite loop of death", how the fuck is a character from a more grounded series supposed to compare to that???)

As for Sonic itself, well... take Amy. How fast is Amy? Do we count Advance 2 where she's as fast as everyone else? Even though in Sonic Heroes she is the slowest Speed character, and she's even slower in '06? Is her strength her own, or a result of her hammer?

How strong is Shadow, when you consider that '06 canonized the inhibitor rings, but he didn't do anything impressive in that one scene where he removed them?

How about Silver, who very painfully suffers from Cutscene Power to the Max and his Super Silver form is woefully wasted?

Do we consider the fact that, in games like 3&K and Mania, Super/Hyper Sonic can't smash walls that regular Knuckles can which implies Knuckles is stronger than the being who killed gods, or do we quietly ignore it as gameplay and story segregation?

Obviously some characters are more powerful than others, sometimes the comparison is easy to make, but no, power scaling makes my head ache and I'd only use it as a joke (like that one post that circulated that said that in one of the Olympic games Amy's strength was higher than Shadow's lol).

[greatwyrmgold]

TB Skyen's "Boss Designs of X" series is structured in a pretty unique way that I find interesting.

The first part of each episode shows Past Skyen going through part of a FromSoft game, the level leading up to the boss, and then finally the boss fight. Along the way, he mixes normal Let's Play commentary with design thoughts about the boss and its context, as well as some explanations from Future Skyen explaining things not covered by Past Skyen.

Once Past Skyen beats the boss, he hands the video to Future Skyen, who starts a scripted video essay about the boss and its design, particularly its visual design and how it informs the broader story. He refers back to points and impressions made in the first portion, separating wheat from chaff, turning those scattered ideas into a proper thesis with which to close the video.

Skyen has described the "Boss Designs" series as a passion project, and it's a project that deserves that passion. The gameplay and scripted analysis compliment one another, the former showing context that most video essays would need to tell you about. It's particularly suited to FromSoft games, which rely on context and mechanics more than many of their peers.

But it also needs to be a passion project, because it doesn't get many views. Part of this is because it fails to please the fearsome Rhythm of Al'Goh, particularly since it thinks of Skyen as primarily a League of Legends YouTuber. But part of it is due to its unique, interesting structure.

While plenty of other video game YouTubers do both Let's Plays and analytical videos, they're generally segregated—often to separate channels, such as Daniel Floyd's PlayFrame and New Frame Plus channels. The reason for this is partly because of the Rhythm of Al'Goh, but partly because people watch Let's Plays and video essays for very different reasons.

Speaking from personal experience, I watch PlayFrame to relax without needing to actively think much, and I watch New Frame Plus (and other video essays) when I want to think about something from a new angle. I want to watch more of Skyen's "Boss Designs" series, but I'm rarely in the mood for more than half of the package.

I want "The Boss Designs of X" to be successful. Skyen knows what he's talking about and knows how to explain it. But the very thing which makes it remarkable—the way it mixes two very different methods of engaging with video games into a whole greater than either could be alone—is almost certainly part of why it isn't.