#a villain being polite and honorable doesn't make them an anti hero

[short-wooloo]

Either learn what that means or you can't use that term anymore

(Thanks to @rogueleader14 for showing me this)

An anti hero is not an antagonist who is likable or sympathetic, an anti hero is a protagonist who is unheroic in their motivations, someone who does/fights for good, but not necessarily for good reasons, fighting for things like profit or to save their own skin, basically their on the good guys side for selfish reasons, a good example of this would be Han pre character development

(Also I sincerely doubt Baylan is our first Force sensitive anti hero, pretty sure Ventress fits into that category after she split with Dooku, and there are probably others)

I'll grant that we don't precisely know what Baylan's motivations are yet

But he's trying to bring back thrawn, a fascist, so that thrawn can restore the fascist empire

That's not very heroic

And even if Baylan's motivation is a belief that the galaxy needs a strong hand to force it to be peaceful, that still doesn't make him an anti hero

Because y'know what? That's what Dooku and Anakin believed

In other words, Baylan, like Dooku and Anakin, is a fascist, or at least a fascist enabler

[im-totally-not-an-alien-2]

Danny, at 17, did not have the best love life. This is partially because two of his must haves in a partner are " Will protect me with their life" and "Will commit unspeakable acts of violence for me" or at least beat someone up for his honor.

Naturally, this doesn't always result in the most stable of partners.

His first girlfriend, Valerie, became an anti-hero and broke up with him for his safety.

He finally got with Sam in sophomore year only for the feds to come into class one day to arrest her. To his surprise, her crimes had nothing to do with ghosts but rather an incident where she went too far and committed a few acts of economic terrorism. Danny and Tucker never really learned the specifics of the crimes, and her parents hushed up as many news outlets as they could, so there wasn't much info to go around. All they knew was that she saved thousands of lives by doing it.

In the end, she was sentenced to eight years, and she broke up with him so that he wouldn't wait around for her to get out.

His third partner was a guy named David who was really sweet. Unfortunately, Danny got kidnapped one day by David's arch nemesis, who was some villain with a corny edge lord name. Yeah. David had become a a super hero after they started dating.

And if you guessed that he freaked out and dumped Danny for his own protection, you'd deserve a cookie.

Danny was noticing a pattern here. One that continued with everyone he dated. They always became some kind of hero before dumping him for his own protection, and it was infuriating. Sure, danny could defend himself, but he was never deep enough into the relationship to reveal his phantom half, and frankly, his hero career was something he left behind when he left Amity and destroyed the portals.

He met Tim at a skatepark after Tim fell off his board cause of some jerk speeding out in front of him on his own board, forcing Tim to stop or else hit the guy. The guy was unrepentant and Tim calmed him down (this did not stop him from melting the guys wheels with an ectoblast when no one was looking).

Tim then asked him to coffee. Danny, noticing how cute Tim was, agreed.

Danny was up front with his parents being mad scientists in Illinois. He always was with all the people he dated. It was better not to hide these kinds of things or worse, wait until you're already attached and afraid of losing them. So he always told potential partners as early as possible. Tim seemed a bit put off by this but was calmer about it than most, and they continued chatting.

Tim didn't seem like the type to turn to heroism or anti heroism so he felt safe on their later dates. It was only after he had known Tim for a while that he put the pieces together.

Tim was always covered in bruises that he hid with his clothes and make up, he had complained about batman over the phone when he thought danny couldn't hear, he was rich, he knew how to fight as revealed by his stances and footwork dispite trying to pretend he didn't, and lastly he held a lot of political power and influence being Bruce Wayne's son. Power he had no reservations using when it suited him or he was just feeling petty (that pettiness was part of why danny was falling for him harder than he thought he could)

No wonder Tim was so okay with his parents being rouges.

Tim was a villain!

At least Tim wouldn't leave him like all his exes. Danny doesn't think he could handle it if he did. Another good thing about this is now he can talk more freely about the more villainous and morally gray ideas and inventions when he was alone with Tim.

Tim didn't see anything wrong with Danny's idea to use something similar to cloning pods to make synthetic meats like rump roasts and steaks as a way to end world hunger and was eager to add to the conversation.

[katerinaaqu]

I’m nodding along with your posts cause the thunder saga ending just didn’t sit well with me at all. I feel like once again Odysseus is being characterized as a villain and a totally ruthless, selfish person when that’s just NOT who he is in the Homeric myths. I really enjoyed the start of the musical and I admire Jay’s talent for making music. But it’s missing Odysseus’ character by a long shot and it’s missing the heart of the Odyssey

It wouldn't be the first time. Many post-homeric sources depicted Odysseus as an amoral bastard who would sell anything and anyone to achieve his goals. For instance post-homeric sources have HIM instead of the will of the gods be the one to orchestrate the sacrifice of Iphigenia and leading her to the altar.

Unfortunately Odysseus seems like free game to be turned into the villain of the story since antiquity. And that is because his methods were going against what ancient Greeks considered honorable (aka direct fight) so they strifed to use Odysseus as an example of what one shouldn't be doing plus many who created anti-war plays like Eurypedes wanted Odysseus as the symbol of anything going under the table in a war. Basically the shady aspects of war. In a way it made sense in antiquity even if it was overplayed.

Romans were also divided but many depicted Odysseus as the absolute villain because he is the taker of Troy. The ancient Roman progenitor is Aeneas who runs away from Troy after the massacre. In a way Odysseus is portrayed as the villain by the romans because he took their mythological ancestral city.

However indeed what bothers me is that this musical was not supposed to be some rewrite of Odysseus's persona. It was supposed to be an adaptation from HOMER'S Odyssey and homeric Odysseus is in my opinion the most solid Odysseus. He is not a goodie guy of course. He has tons of flaws and he made many gray decisions but he was still the hero. Not the lowkey villain. He was incredibly loyal to his friends and crew and didn't abandon them before any danger.

The Musical I think ruined his potential. Not just the thunder saga but almost everything from the end of Storm till now. Odysseus does not speak his name to Polyphemus out of his fatigue anger and insult after a week of seclusion and torture. He speaks it out of spite because he just lost his friend (that same friend that was killed off for the sakes of dramatics given that Polites is mentioned only once in the homeric poems and that is on Circe's island), he doesn't sell himself to Circe to save his men apparently no price needed to be paid. He didn't remain a slave for one year close to her. He doesn't get strikes by guilt by ACTUALLY talking to his mother in the underworld or by fear by talking to Achilles or by doubt by talking to Agamemnon. He gets zero definitive answers from Tiresias. He gets no advice from Circe he gets not his experience with Sirens. He didn't gear up to protec his men from Skylla even if Circe told him not to because she was immortal and there would be no point...

Why would anyone claim that they make an adaptation if they do not follow literally anything from the plot?

I absolutely agree. I got my hopes way too high at Troy saga because I loved the way he actually used the Iliou Persis half-saved phrase and turned it into an amazing dilemma. Those first songs were amazing and spoke volumes for the characters. However the more we move in the more disappointed I get.

Yes I still feel happy that a fellow artist shows such passion over music and how he started everything by himself and all but now I feel like he just seeks to change everything from the original and I fail to see why...why must this potential masterpiece be turned into yet another "loosely based on" thing like every typical mainstream Hollywood film? I think my expectation at first increased my disappointment now.

Quite frankly I got a glimpse of Calypso too and they seem they want to turn the story of the poor man practically being raped for 7 years and held prisoner into a bubbly romcom...seriously no...