#also the problems in how jfm treats jc and wwx will not go away if myu leaves

[llycaons]

Fengmian finally divorces Madam Yu and sits down with his kids after to have a talk. They all go to family therapy, even Yanli because she snapped at her boyfriend once and started crying after because she didn't want to turn out like their mom. Wei Ying probably gets properly adopted into the family.

wow guys good thing myu was the only problem in the jiang family dynamic and excising her will solve all the problems they have/s

[add1ctedt0you]

Me screaming about zcx because I need to sort out thoughts about them for a fic I'll probably never write

The fic is centered on fem!zcx as teens, because I can't deal with them as adults, so I am (trying really) going to understand their dynamics and brain problems as teens.

So, starting with the easy one: lan wangji. Teen!lwj biggest issues is discovering new things: sexual desire, attraction, - people, in general. lwj had been sheltered as a kid in a way that didn't let him learn how to deal with the world, imo. Also, he's stuck with Lan 3,000 rules, so puberty is a nightmare for him. I can figure out both his relationships with wwx and jc: both of them, in different way, have shattered his convictions and beliefs and this, plus an amount of sexual attraction he feels for both, is going to make him feel ten things at once. And he's going to like none of this. Obviously, his journey of self-discovery is internal and no one knows about it because lwj's problem, imo, is that he feels a lot and he feels deeply but he can't express himself.

Now comes the problem: chengxian. Imo, one of the biggest formative moment of their relationship is when jfm took away jc's dogs: that day they both learned that jc will lose things for wwx. And it fucked up both of them. Mm, not an hill I'll die on, but imo teen!jc and teen!wwx used to talk about their problems: like, we have the whole 'twin pride' speech, because wwx wants to work out their problems there. And then, during the wedding scene, again, jc brought up problems, that wwx brushed off, but still, they communicated (they also at some point start to misinterpret each other. But that's different).

Their biggest problem, imo, is that they don't feel loved by each other, they feel both a burden for the other AND someone the other would replace easily with someone else (and no, it's not only a jc's fear; like, yes, he's much more likely to get on his own head about this, but teen!wwx passed from being teen!sect heir jc most-important-person to being not-the-only-person for very busy sect leader jc. I've read this on a fic and still hunts me. The whole deal of wwx, in general, is that nothing is as it was and this hurts him but we don't talk about it).

They are a mess. They hurt each other daily intentionally (jc) and unintentionally (wwx). But, they will face so much for the other because their love is stronger. (post res wwx is different- he's so tired and resentful, but we don't talk about it). Their relationship is doomed from the start but the love is there.

(Also, they have shaped each other in irreparable ways. wwx uses emotional manipulation to get his way because that's what worked with jc. jc uses threats because that is what worked with wwx.)

About their pov: mmm, I'll probably found a lot of problems with wwx's pov, because, honestly, how can you write about someone who can't acknowledge ONE emotion and can't do the math (emotionally. In real life I hate math. Also, someone should explain to me how he got from crying jc to noncon surgery. How).

Also, wwx's pov is seriousness treated crackily, while lwj's pov is a teen drama. And jc's pov is a soup opera.

[meimei-bunnie]

Was thinking about Jiang Cheng last night, and what I understood of his character– and especially of his relationship with Wei Wuxian, because obviously, every aspect of his character is shown through the lens of their relationship owing to the fact that Wei Wuxian is the main character.

I don't think it's a bad thing, but I do wish that we could have got some serious in-depth of a lot of characters from their own perspectives, but it works for me and my overactive brain to fill in the gaps.

I genuinely feel heartbroken over their relationship because I know that the love is there, and always will be. Even if it's now tainted with too many harsh words and spilt blood, the love is still there. The problem lies in how Jiang Cheng was raised.

At first, I used to think that Jiang Fengmian and Yu Ziyuan are not that bad of parents but after thinking over it, I have realised that they are not good either. In fact, when it comes to Jiang Cheng, they did a terrible job. JFM essentially neglected JC because of his similarity to his mother, leaving him craving for love. YZY on the other hand, constantly put him down by comparing him to WWX.

Both of these things became a core part of how JC thinks and feels. He never received unconditional love from his parents, and his relationship was strained with WWX, but he still loves them all. He is a classic Slytherin, in my opinion. He is definitely ambitious and loves his cultivation but another thing that I characterize Slytherins by is the difference in which they treat those inside their circle and outside their circle.

So, for JC, the people inside this circle are: JFM, YZY, WWX & JYL (and afterwards JL, but that's inconsequential to this post since I'm focusing more on the JC before WWX's resurrection). Even if they treat him badly, he loves them to death. He would go to the world's end for them, and all he wants in return is for them to be by his side.

Which is what WWX fails to do after the Wen situation. (I'm not blaming him, I totally support WWX's decision; I'm just painting it from JC's pov.) At a time when he had lost his parents and JYL was getting married and going away, the only tether for him was WWX– so when he chose the Wens (outsiders, for JC) and demonic cultivation over him, it was betrayal for him.

I believe there are 3 feelings that ruined their relationship, from JC's side: ① betrayal ② jealousy ③ loneliness.

The feeling of betrayal ties in to the loneliness heavily. At the root of everything is the fact that JC struggles with love; he loves deeply, but doesn't quite know how to express it at times because his own parents were lousy at doing that. (I wanna give him a tight hug so bad ugh.)

The jealousy... Well, that's the factor that ruined it the most. And I believe that if only JFM had looked past the fact that JC's mother is YZY, and had loved him as freely as he did WWX, and if YZY had not constantly compared them, then JC could have grown up without the compulsive need to constantly compare himself to WWX. It's not that he does it on purpose, but something that's wired in him because of the glaring difference in them that his parents keep pointing out, whether it's with his actions or her words.

The thing is... WWX was literally the worst person to compare himself to. He was literally a genius, a prodigy, a once-in-a-generation kind of cultivator. And also a classic Gryffindor example. Brave, reckless and strong sense of justice. That's what marks the main difference between them.

JC would choose his family/inner circle over justice. WWX would choose justice over his family/inner circle.

Those feelings of betrayal, jealousy and loneliness come out in the form of misplaced anger and hatred in the 13 years WWX is gone on every person who does demonic cultivation. I feel like JC was trying to find him too, but it was in equal parts love and equal parts hatred.

The point in the climax when he gets angry at WWX and mocks him about how good he is, and constantly better than JC that he even gives away his golden core– that scene hurt me so much. I was really upset with him, but well, his words struck me. Even now, he is still comparing himself to WWX. He has always tried to catch up to the image of WWX, in hopes of gaining his mother's pride and his father's love and even long after they are gone, he feels the need to prove himself to the rest of the world that he is Jiang Cheng. He is Jiang Wanyin, heir to the Yunmeng Jiang clan and worthy of leading them.

It's literally no secret how much he despises that everyone sees him as someone 'not Jiang like'. Their motto doesn't match him. But WWX does. WWX gets his father's love freely. WWX is the talented cultivator that everyone praises and sees, and it's never him. Never JC.

He spent his entire life trying to catch up to WWX, then chasing him in hatred, only to realise that he never could. No matter what he did, he would never measure up to WWX. And he is grateful, he is thankful for what WWX did, but it came out in the usual way all his feelings do: anger and derision. That scene hurts, but it made me finally understand JC.

Honestly, my biggest takeaway from all this was that JC deserved better parents. I love him and I love WWX and I want their relationship to be better desperately but knowing that with all that has happened, I also know it's going to be really really hard. I still want to believe in my own hc that post-canon, they sit down and talk like mature adults and get all this out of the way.

Be the brothers they always should have been, even if they can't be the Twin Heroes of Yunmeng anymore.

(Sorry this got a little long hahaha~)

Edit: And I just want to add that JC never needed to compare himself or 'catch up' to WWX. That's where his parents failed him. Nobody telling him that he is enough and wonderful and loved as he is. I would love to jump in and just, give him a tight hug and say all these things to the younger JC. That I'm proud of him. That's he's enough.

[dew-in-the-morning]

Why YZY is a bad mother, wife and person in general ( a meta brought to you because of this)

So YZY is the third daughter of the Yu sect, we know she has 2 older sisters but we don't know anything about if she had any brothers. We know that she nighthunted with JFM often in the past but he didn't like her because of their different characters. Later on CSSR came down the mountain and became really close with JFM and WCZ, they basically used to night hunt together and there were some rumours about JFM being in love with her (rumours that have never been confirmed and that only YZY believed) but she eloped with WCZ. At the same time the Yu sect is pressuring JFM into marrying YZY despite him refusing them because of their incompatible characters even though his father was interested to the offer. Shortly after WCZ and CSSR leave he falls to the pressure and accepts to marry YZY, this is not because he lost the woman he was in love with but because he lost his two only friends and the only ones supporting him. So he is pressured and marries YZY against his will.

The Yu sect is a minor sect, probably subsidiary to the Jiang Sect, so they would only gain by having a member of their family marry into the Jiangs.

Here is the thing, this is a marriage that YZY wanted and JFM didn't so the base for their relationship is already bad ( and had their sex been reversed you'll all be hating on YZY for pressuring someone into marrying her against their will).

Here is another thing YZY is the one who accuses JFM of not wanting her to be his wife while refusing to take the title of Madam Jiang and keeping the title of Madam Yu, a title that does not belong to her but to her older sister or if she has a brother to her brother's wife, she's the one refusing to be associated to the Jiang sect and to be considered JFM wife. Not only that she lives in a separate pavilion from her husband and she brought her servants from her sect (something that any bride can do) but she refuses to take the Jiang's servant so once again driving a line between herself and the Jiang sect. Also she has no hand in training the disciples since they are learning the Jiang sect tecnique and she is a Yu disciple.

By the time JFM saves WWX from the streets (where he had to survive for 4-5 years) JC already believes that his father hates him. This 8 years old child believes that his father hates him and JFM has been kind if not a little dismissive with him in those scenes. He was the one who got JC the dogs because he wasn't able to make friends, and he even waited a whole day before getting rid of them after noticing that WWX couldn't function around them. So this was totally YZY's work, seeing how she's the one who keeps telling JC how JFM hated him and didn't want him as his son (projecting herself on her son).

Another thing we know is that she's almost never at the Jiang Sect, choosing to go night hunting and so refusing to take care of her responsibilities as the wife of a Sect Leader and when she's there she spends her time berating her husband and children and abusing WWX.

So YZY herself has chosen to separate herself from JFM and the Jiang sect and it's not JFM keeping her away because he doesn't like her.

Now let's talk about the Jiang Family dynamic and how she influenced it:

-JYL has literally to raise her brothers, her desires and her presence is ignored in the family and the only times we see YZY interact with her is to berate her about not being a good marriage prospect to JZX. She doesn't care about what JYL wants, the only reason she wants that marriage is to be closer to her sworn sister's family and it has nothing to do woth JYL will or the marriage being beneficial to the sect (JGS had no problem breaking the engagement because he never agreed with it, there was literally no gain for both sects since they are already allied)

She takes a passive role like her father, trying to keep the pieces of their family

-JC is her favoured child, despite the way she treats him. She projects on him and his relationship with WWX. She wants him to be the best while doing nothing to help him only comparing to WWX and berating him because he is weaker than the "son of a servant" who is lower than JC. She influences many of JC beliefs and she's the one who keeps telling him how JFM hates him. She's the reason why the boys relationship is so strained and why JC is so jealous of WWX. When I say she project on their relationship I mean that she sees herself in JC and CSSR in WWX, and every time WWX is better than JC it's a reminder about how better than her CSSR was despite coming from a "lowly" birth.

-WWX is literally her punching bag. He's both a weapon she keeps using against JFM but also someone she keeps taking his rage on. We know that she used to whip WWX for nothing, singling him out and using her position to punish him unjustly so much that by the age of 15 WWX'S back was full of scars. WWX is not even adopted into the Jiang clan so he's no "threat" to JC position, the only reason he is being abused is because YZY hated his mother and is taking it on him. She keeps berating his parents and insulting them ( which is something incredibly wrong to do about someone dead) both accusing him of being a "bastard" but also the"son of a servant'

-JFM is also one of her victims, even if it doesn't seem because he's the one with the higher position. This man not only was pressured into marrying a woman he didn't like and he had already refused but he had to spend more than 20 years being insulted, berated, accused of betraying her, of hating his children and having a bastard. He's passive and doesn't react and doesn't go against YZY despite her obvious abuse towards his children and ward. He obviously doesn't favour WWX and does try to teach JC about their sect but everytime YZY interrupts and then undermines him. Like in the scene after WWX gets rescued by the Xuanwu, JFM is trying to teach JC why him saying that WWX should have let the heirs of their allied sects die when YZY goes to the room, she literally goes there to berate wwx on his sick bed she didn't meet him outside, she went out of her way to go to WWX'S room. And not only she accuses JFM again of having betrayed his dearest friend by sleeping with his life, she also berates the ideal of his sect ideals that he's trying to teach his son and then uses WWX again to attack him.

YZY is literally the one that's causing the rumours about WWX parentage to spread, since we know for a fact that she told Madam Jin about it and that JZX and JGS know (and even used) the fact that supposedly JFM used to favour WWX.

She's the one causing her own misery and the misery of everyone around her because she's a bitter woman. She's the one starting every argument and also the reason why LP fell. She was completely ready to cut WWX'S hand but the moment she felt her pride insulted (and by a servant no less) she had no problem attacking WLJ and having the Jiang sect under attack. Saving only her son and WWX, was not a supposed act of kindness towards WWX she literally saved him because she knew he was their strongest disciple and that he would protect JC. Her last words were literally telling a child she abused for years that it was all his fault and to protect her son with his life.

Honestly the fact that the chapters where YZY appear are called Poison is not a coincidence, because YZY literally poisoned everyone with her bitterness.

Honestly I have much more to say but I don't have the time to do it

[plan-d-to-i]

Hi Plan,

I wanted to ask a question regarding WWX and JFM. Did JFM ever considered WY to be his son? Is there any proof of it in the novel?

Thank

No. Jiang Fengmian didn't consider Wei Wuxian his son. He just cared about him because he was the son of his deceased friends, and because they had similar world views and understood each other. He raised him alongside his kids and with certain privileges (like sending him to Cloud Recesses to study), but he didn't adopt him. He expected WWX would be jiang cheng's subordinate one day (nothing wrong w that, the only problem was jc ended up being a huge asshole and WWX couldn't serve someone like him without compromising his morals).

JFM seriously gets so much flack for raising WWX alongside his kids. It happens. It's not unique. YZY is just a harpy. JFM raised him bc 1. he was a nice guy, 2. he felt responsible for him bc as stated WWX's parents had been his close friends and they were dead and couldn't care for their son, 3. jc had zero friends bc he was an unlikeable asshole and 4. YunmengJiang Clan was not as strict as other clans:

Lotus Pier wasn’t as other-worldly as the other sects’ residences, shutting their doors and refusing to let commoners come within a boundary miles away. The docks right in front of Lotus Pier’s entrance often bustled with vendors selling seed pods, water chestnuts and all kinds of pastries. Runny-nosed children from households nearby could also sneak into Lotus Pier’s fields to watch the cultivators practice their swords. They wouldn’t be scolded even if they got caught, either. They could sometimes even play around with the Jiang Sect’s disciples.

...

The founder of the YunmengJiang Sect, Jiang Chi, was born a rogue cultivator. The ways of the sect were honest and unrestrained. Madam Yu’s manners were the exact opposite.

The person who's most pressed by the way JFM treats the orphaned kid of his friends, other than jc, is YZY and we see how truthful her rants are when the narration directly contradicts her assertions. Ex: she busts into WWX's room to criticize JFM for not paying attention to his son when he's literally trying to teach his son. She accuses JFM of favoritism if he doesn't let WWX go to the indoctrination camp then gets mad because he's actually letting WWX go to the indoctrination camp...

"There was resentment within her heart. She simply wanted to let out the rage, even if it made no sense. All the rest were quiet as they endured her temper."

WWX explained it to jc clearly before:

They sat down together, “Let’s be honest, don’t hide things so sulkily in your heart. You’re Uncle Jiang’s own son, the future leader of the Jiang Sect. Of course Uncle Jiang would be stricter towards you.”

Jiang Cheng gave him a sideway glance.

Wei WuXian continued, “But I’m different. I’m the son of someone else. Both of my parents are good friends of Uncle Jiang. Of course he’d cut me more slack. Such a reason you do understand, don’t you?”

WWX also reiterates the difference between one's own kids and the children of another here:

Just as Wen Qing said, if Wen Chao truly wanted to kill anyone, it was unlikely for Wen Qing to be able to stop him. Perhaps she’d be affected as well. After all, children of others could never compare to children of one’s own.

jiang cheng just falls back over and over on the idea that his father doesn't like him and has some bias against him and some favoritism for WWX because it's a lot easier than acknowledging that his father likes him just fine but if he wants JFM to be proud of him he actually needs to be a better person and change his behavior. & this fandom has some weird assholes in it who think someone taking an orphan in off the street is evil and selfish... 🙃

[yilinglaozuhot]

Please don’t feel pressured to answer this. But chengxian literally grew up together as brothers. Even though they are not biologically brother, isn’t it still a little weird?

No pressure, and it's totally cool that we see things different ways. But warning, I've snapped a little bit in this long ass rant.

You and many many other fans see their relationship as brotherly and I and a tiny tiny fraction of the fandom don't. If I didn't ship them romantically, I would only see them as friends. Perhaps not even best friends with all the shit that goes down between them. Wwx arrives at lotus pier when they're like 4 and 5 (idk, kids' age is always a mystery to me) and it all starts with jc's dogs getting taken away because wwx is afraid of them. Jfm puts a street urchin as priority against his own son by doing that and basically says to him "there, here's your new assigned best friend" so jc as a stubborn, angry but rather filial son makes friends with wwx. He doesn't have much choice in the matter but he learns to like the kid. And after that first day they never stop being pitted against each other. They have a cruel competition going on although none of them wants to participate in it. Who's better in martial arts? Wwx. Who gets more affection from jfm? Wwx. Who's the legitimate heir of lotus pier? Jc. But should it really be him? Wouldn't be the first disciple better at even being the clan leader?

How can wwx feel like he's part of the family when Madame Yu never fails to remind him that he's only a servant? She's protecting his own son against an unwelcome guest in her house, a cuckoo in the nest as @necroprankster has said it once. She sees him as a potential threat, not an adopted son. If she saw his as his son, it wouldn't be such a problem that he has better skills than jc and may be more suited as clan leader in the future. Only jyl treats wwx as a little brother and keeps the three kids together and what does she get from Madame Jin at the phoenix mountain when wwx wants to escort her back from the hunt? That she shouldn't be alone with an unrelated young man.

Wwx also has to reassure jc from time to time that he doesn't threaten his position: "you'll be the clan leader and I'll be your subordinate." He says it himself once that he doesn't want to take on the Jiang name as he already has his own or something like that, I don't remember the exact quote. Anyways, they have a stricter hierarchy between them than bothers have and they would be comfortable in their positions if they wouldn't be compared to each other by jc's immediate family and the whole clan. This whole measuring thing fucks them up so badly.

They're martial brothers, and being martial brothers isn't equal with being blood brothers or even adopted brothers. Martial brothers don't have to live under the same roof but wwx's case is special. He's being reminded of it constantly, and he has to know his place. Also, in wuxia/xianxia "martial siblings falling in love" is a popular trope, and I don't see anyone complaining about wenzhou being martial brothers for example. I know, they didn't grow up together so it doesn't count.

Yes, if they were blood brothers or relatives there would be the threat of one trying to snatch the "throne" underneath the other as we've seen it in Shakespearean plays and TV shows. But wwx doesn't have the ambition to do so and he'd inherit the clan leader title anyway as he's older than jc if they really were brothers.

So, imo you can put them into the "brothers competing for the throne" shoebox if you want to but definitely not into the "loving brothers" shoebox. I know fandom mostly sees them as loving brothers but they have too many expectations from the whole clan, they hear too many things being said about them, and there is too much awkwardness and tension between them to fit into that shoebox. They love each other but they're also painfully aware of how they're seen and treated so they try to balance between being clan heir/first disciple, friends, shidi/shixiong and (adoptive) brothers and look how well it goes for them. So how can they be brothers after all this? And what does it matter if some of us add romantic/sexual tension to this whole hot mess? It's certainly interesting to explore the possibilities this extra flavour adds to their relationship and shipping is exactly about this, isn't it?

Oh, and I haven't even touched the golden core transfer but as we say it in chengxian circles: the inherent homoeroticism of being inside your shidi for 16 years. Or something like that.

[grewlikefancyflowers]

honestly, the way jfm gets SO MUCH MORE vitriol than yzy is so alarming to me? and it's never even hate about stuff he should be criticised for, i.e not STOPPING yzy from the shit she was doing to all the kids. it's literally all stuff about how he's a monster for "ignoring his real kid in favour some street urchin" and acting like he's abusive for telling jc that wanting to let your allies die to save yourself is not great leadership material. meanwhile everything yzy does is justified bc jfm ignores her apparently.

Yeah I was surprised to by the level of hate JFM gets as well, even if you go with the 'JFM favours WWX' interpretation, its weird that people have a strong emotional reaction to that, but not Madam Yu whipping WWX... I supposed this could either be attributed to people having either skimmed or not read the extras, thus not fully understanding what the Jiang family dynamic actually was like, or maybe the idea of favouritism from a parent feeling much more personal, whereas the physical abuse that Madam Yu inflicts is more removed from most people's realities. It's also possibly just a common enough trope in history based media that people are a bit numb to it.

Reasoning aside, its pretty obvious that JFM's flaws as a parent come from his passivity towards Madam Yu, or any sort of conflict. JYL inherits this passivity, like JC inherits Madam Yu's resentment.

JFM and JYL are so similar, yet she is so beloved and JFM is so hated?

This isn't JYL hate, she's not the parent, it was never her responsibility to fix her family, even if she had the ability to do so. But she's isn't an unceasingly caring angel who takes care of all of WWX and JC's emotional needs and fixes all their problems either. At times, like JFM, her care towards WWX can be quite shallow.

Looking at JFM's parenting towards JC (unfortunately we're not really given any interactions with JYL to look at, other than he likes her soup) he's really... not that bad?? He spends a whole day comforting him after they have to send the dogs away, although it's pretty clear that he has a tense and somewhat awkward relationship with JC when he's older, he does not, nor does he ever, treat him badly.

Honestly, it's impressive how JFM still manages to be patient with JC - post-xuanwu cave when he's throwing a little tantrum because someone else is getting attention, and saying they should have left people to die, he doesn't even lose his temper, he literally just tries to explain to JC why he is wrong.

Whereas, WWX, when he first comes to LP, JFM gives him shoes so ill fitting that they slip right off, he either doesn't give WWX a bedroom, or doesn't tell him where his is, the text is kind of ambiguous - 'Every day, he [WWX] obediently holed up in the places that Jiang FengMian told him to stay at. He didn’t even know where his room was' (Ch.71) - it definitely cannot be truthfully said that JFM treats him with any particular care or attention, even if they do have a warmer relationship than JC does with JFM.

It could be that JFM is one of those passive, wet blanket types that's easy to dislike, but JYL has such a similar personality, and people pretend to? love her. While Madam Yu is awful, at least she has some pizzazz.

[crossdressingdeath]

i'm so weirded out by JC stans who are obsessed with the 'promise' WWX made to JC. It's so messed up that WWX had to tell him he'd be his subordinate to placate him when he was throwing a temper tantrum. JC actually expected the person he was raised alongside (the person who JC stans insist he saw as a brother) to be his subordinate forever, like its not okay that JC sees WWX as inferior, that he will only be happy if he has power over him?? Genuinely creeps me the hell out.

Pretty sure MXTX didn't WANT us to sympathise with JC here either - like contrast it with how WWX treats WN - when WN kneels before him, WWX is like 'no, don't do that' and when he doesn't get up, WWX kneels as well, i love that scene SO much. And there's the fact that WWX sees WN as his own person, respects him, wants him to find his own path. Whereas JC only sees WWX as having any value when he is serving him/lotus pier. JC was so mad that he left, he tried to kill WN, the innocent teenager who he owed his life to!! JC thinks he owns WWX. And actually, he only starts to question that idea at the very end of the novel, when he discovers the GC transfer, because that means he can no longer insist that WWX owes him a debt. People interpret this to mean that JC was starting to realise he was wrong but i disagree! JC never questions his core belief that WWX is his inferior, and was obligated to serve lotus pier forever, he only lets go of the idea when he is forced to consider the debt paid. But if JC actually saw WWX as a brother, actually loved him and treated him as his own person, he would never have thought WWX was indebted to him in the first place.

(Also minor tangent when I first read MDZS I didn't love the whole ‘thank you’ and ‘sorry’ are unnecessary between wangxian thing bc no matter how much you love someone, you should still be grateful when they do things for you, and apologetic if you’ve done something to hurt them. But, I guess the point of that, metatextually, is that before LWJ, WWX literally didn’t have unconditional love from anyone. Any support he received from the Jiangs was conditional, and he was made to feel like he’d done something wrong just by having JYL and JFM care about him. MXTX is obviously saying something about love here, that idea that you are indebted to people who have supported or cared for you aint it.)

I know people are gonna say 'well historically it would have been acceptable to treat WWX like a servant' or whatever but that's not the point! MDZS leans pretty heavily into the idea that treating people as if they are inferior just because it's technically acceptable to do so isn't okay!! I mean, WWX literally treats the corpses he raises with more care and respect than JC ever treated him with.

To start with the easiest point, I’d say that the “Thank you and sorry are unnecessary between us” thing wasn’t necessarily entirely literal? Rather than “never say sorry or thank you ever” I got the impression it was more “Don’t apologise for things that aren’t your fault or aren’t actually a problem or say thank you for things that are the bare minimum requirement for a healthy relationship”. Basically, they’re still going to apologise for hurting each other and thank each other for making dinner and such (...well, WWX will thank LWJ for dinner, anyway), but it’s not going to be like. “Thank you for letting me live in your house”, y’know? It is about WWX finally having unconditional love, but I don’t think it’s supposed to be taken as never apologizing or thanking LWJ for anything like it’s his due; that’s the same problem, just from the other side.

But yeah, parts of the fandom really cling on to that promise. Like, I... seriously doubt we’re supposed to see a child having to swear to serve his “brother” indefinitely to keep said brother from throwing a temper tantrum and the brother expecting him to keep that promise even after betraying him and causing his death as cute? or a proper brotherly relationship? Even without taking into how WWX specifically said they’d be like two people who eventually parted on good terms because WWX’s father wanted to live his own life, so the promise wasn’t even for his whole life. Siblings don’t generally demand an oath of lifelong loyalty that is expected to be upheld even after multiple attempted murders, y’know! And you’re right, JC is angry to learn about the core transfer because it means he can no longer demand that WWX repay his “debts”. All the debts have been paid, JC can no longer demand service from WWX over them. JC is mad because WWX’s leash is gone. Honestly even the fact that a promise exists between them that involves WWX swearing to be JC’s subordinate while JC promised nothing in return makes their relationship kind of fucked up! Siblings do not, as a general rule, demand unflinching loyalty with nothing in return! Even the ones that don’t betray their siblings wouldn’t expect that! Basically... the fact that WWX had to all but sign his life away to JC for the foreseeable future to get JC to stop throwing a tantrum over something that was in no way WWX’s fault should be seen as a massive red flag for JC’s views on their relationship, not a sign that WWX “ruined” their relationship by deciding that on second thought he didn’t want to spend the rest of his life bound to the guy who tries to kill him more times than any other individual character in the entire story.

[llycaons]

episode 18. I didn’t remember this scene right at all. also, the tonal dissonance is intense

okay another thing about the “nonconsensual surgery” argument - jc knew there was going to a procedure? he begged for a way to return him to how he was before? is wwx lying about the specifics of the procedure and who’s doing it something that falls under failure to get consent? on his end, jc is already lying about his identity. anyway

wwx: (lying to jc, something he’ll be very upset about later): by the way we need to drug and lie to yanli for her own good

jc (is completely willing to ignore yanli’s wishes to do what he thinks is best for her): oh yeah absolutely

wwx off catching pheasants because if you recall, he’s a bird-catcher extraordinaire. who apparently likes eating rabbits for real.

oh shit it’s song lan. it’s a good choice to stick him in here, to avoid even more flashbacks later on and give us too much information all at once

and since we know XY is out there still, we have the entire rest of the show to worry about what atrocities he’s committing

I’m just going to say it. wen zhuliu has divorced dilf energy

okay so wen qing is agreeing to the transfer because she relates to wwx for older sister reasons (and probably feels like she owes the jiangs for what her clan has put them through) but she’s still okay with drugging yanli, the actual older sister here. wow.

when wen qing says she understands why jc is angry and in his situation she would be too? that’s insane because we later DO see her in a similar position and she is NOTHING but graceful and polite and restrained towards him. the worse things happen, the calmer and more at peace she becomes. I wish we could have seen her snap. just once. wen ning got to snap on her behalf but it’s not the SAME

the flashback is all over the place, tonally. paternal and kind clan leader assures terrified, traumatized, and newly-arrived wwx he’s welcome and needn’t apologize for things that aren’t his fault, then abandons him to the mercy of his son, who has serious emotional problems because he’s lonely and his only friends have been sent away and his parents refuse to give a shit about offering emotional support or guidance or how to act with new people. great job, jfm

yanli in the past, as in the present, is the foundation of the jc wwx relationship because she can tell what each other really want to say and she’s the only one jc will listen to when he’s angry. but she also tells wwx that he shouldn’t be mad at jc, because jc is sad :( even though jc threw him out and threatened him with dogs so wwx has a right to be angry and hurt. but hey, at least she got jc to apologize, something that literally only happens in episode 50, set approximately 30 years after this scene

there has to be a middle way between excusing all his behavior and treating him like hes a worthless failure and its actually confronting him about the harm he does. but throughout the entire show, I feel like he doesn’t make decisions, he just acts on impulse and emotion.

anyway the REAL kicker about this scene is how it’s about being together and loving each other and staying connected as siblings WHILE wwx is actively drugging yanli against the wishes she JUST expressed to send her away from them because he believes he knows what’s best. and she’s not even mad at him! and there’s no indication he feels bad or won’t do it again! mama mia

hiiii nie mingjue

LAN WANGJI!!!!! we only got like 10 seconds and no dialogue but I’ve been WAITING for him!!

there is so much love in wwx saying goodbye to jc. tbh I don’t really feel that jc loves wwx so much as he desperately needs him and is concerningly dependent on his agreement and support. like, I know logically he loves him and wants to protect him and he’s terrible at showing it but I’ve never felt it. the one person I really felt like jc loved selflessly, and who he wanted to be happy even if it was away from him, was yanli, and even then, as we see, he drugs her without any regard for how it would hurt her to be tricked like that.

in this scene you can see how much this means to wwx and how much care he puts into it. and not just because of the debt he owes but because that's his family, that’s his home

it’s so obvious this is wen qing. the show barely tried. like, the red robes. the voice. her SWORD. it’s barely on the edge of plausible deniability

I don’t remember this scene cutting off so abruptly huh

[llycaons]

episode 15. holy SHIT we’re all going through a lot together. I think it’s fitting that this is what happens the second lan wangji leaves the story. it’s just better when he’s around, for wwx and for us too. except maybe nightless, but it’s close

did anyone else know that the unnamed clan at the wen camp indoctrination was the YAO CLAN??? we see them again with those big metallic headdresses at the beginning of this episode as they beg jfm to shelter them from the wens. everyone else from the training arc was murdered

kind of random small clan to be thrown in with the other four but maybe the wens wanted to make up the numbers.

so jfm goes with sect leader yao to shelter at lanling...why? on the eve of a potential attack by a clan that bears them a personal grudge? they couldn’t have sent a couple of disciples and yanli to stay safe there? I know in the long run it wouldn’t have made a difference but it doesn’t make sense to me. also why did he bring yanli on a dangerous journey if she wasn’t going to stay with the jins? they may have brken off the engagement but jzx’s mom and myu were friends, she loves yanli

well, it makes for great drama so I’ll overlook it

Lotus Pier really is beautiful. it really is

myu trying to show concern for jfm by giving yanli medicine but jfm won’t even look at her. yikes. why do you think he had headaches, madame yu? I will say she is uncharacteristically gentle with yanli here asking them both to stay safe, and I wonder how their relationship is when it’s just the two of them. 

“we have to stay to protect our home” myu is right there and stayed fighting against the wens for HOURS while jfm keeled over in like 5 minutes and even then she only died due to self-inflicted injuries omg

the number of times “my Lotus Pier” or “our home” comes up in this episode....

when the jiangs run in to report the kidnapping, jc is immediately angry while wwx is the one to ask for a clear report. imagine what a good influence he could have been if jc learned from him instead of having myu as a parent. when she sweeps in, she just criticizes everyone for being worried, especially jc for acting unlike a clan leader.

the first confrontation here blows me away every time. the ACTING, the layers, the elitism, the corruption and power-madness of it all, the implications, the zhus being servants who talk back, jc trying to protect wwx from his mother, wwx being perfectly willing to lose a hand to save his home, myu’s commitment to social hierarchy clashing with her very real desire to keep the jiangs out of a war she knows they can’t win - it’s one of the most complex and fascinating scenes in the show, and it’s taken almost directly from the novel (as with most of the best novel scenes, it has nothing to do with romance)

hmmm I don’t think harsh punishment is automatically abusive. but like. okay, there’s a very baffling (to me) line at the end of the novel where wwx thinks about how myu never actually hurt him. like...I can see how whipping him here in this situation was just to keep the peace and save him from a wen-inflicted punishment, something he probably agrees is necessary, although it is painful and horrible to watch, and definitely hurt him in both long and short-term

but aside from this one scene, this authority figure goes out of her way to treat him like trash, tell him he’s a disaster to his home, tells him it’s his duty to protect his brother even if he dies, and as an adult makes him feel responsible for all of her problems (like her marriage being a failure and her husband treating her coldly) up to and including the destruction of his home and the murder of his family

besides this scene, I don’t think we ever see her physically hurt him. and maybe she didn’t! maybe wwx really was just joking about her whipping him and maybe she always held back, if only to not damage her clan’s top disciple. but if that’s true, the fact that she never physically hurt him doesn’t mean she’s not still emotionally abusive. this might be me misinterpreting things due to cultural differences but I really do think the show goes out of its way to tell us “the way she treated wwx was bad and hurt him and jc longterm and the future generation (jin ling) not following her example is positive change”

and I think this show is one of the best I‘ve ever seen at demonstrating how behavior like that is passed down through families and what kind of damage it does to the people in it

something I really like about the message in the show is how suffering does not make you a better or stronger person. the things that jc and wwx went through splintered their relationship, destroyed their self-worth, made it impossible to talk about their traumatic experiences and caused them to act in ways that hurt themselves.it caused wwx to kill himself. the happiness wwx finds at the end is not a result of his trauma but a recovery from it, with an unconditionally loving and supportive partner.

something also to be said about how sacrifices don’t end up doing what they were intended to do. I think that’s there for the drama too, but it also tells me something about how hurting yourself shouldn’t be the option you turn to first

I don’t like most myu fancontent because it either oversimplifies her relationship to wwx and jc, makes her a very one-dimensional villain, or entirely erases her mistreatment of her children (or even makes her a wx mactchmaker??? what???) and I like to see the complexity of characters preserved. I don’t LIKE her, she’s not a good person or a good mother and anyone who wants to avoid any content of her because of that is completely understandable. but if I feel like a fic is getting her wrong or misinterpreting her priorities, I can’t read it.

as always I’m a little frustrated that lwj never got this complexity of narrative - the simplicity of wx almost seems jarring after scenes like this - but it’s a long show already and he has a very clear role to fill that he does beautifully.

another thought - I really don’t think she’d be opposed to wwx/lwj as long as it doesn’t take wwx away from his duties at lotus pier because the jiangs having such a strong connection to the lans would be an excellent political move and the lans are appropriately high-born for her

anyway she was, I think, fully prepared to cut off wwx’s hand if it meant that LP would be spared

but wlj presumed too much. she reached too far, told myu that her home would be controlled by the wens, in the most condescending was patronizing way possible. and that snapped myu back to “I am in control here, this is my terrotory and my right as a scet leader’s wife, how dare you come in and give me orders, this is my dog and I will discipline him, not you” 

so her defense of wwx is due to possessiveness and a sense of...entitlement? her status lets her do this. his debt lets her do this.

and I don’t LIKE to see people slapping perceived social inferiors (especially with myu’s pointed look at wwx when she agreed servants should act like servants) but who am I to deny it was thrilling to see wlj thrown to the ground after a speech like that. too bad the zhus didn’t kill her before she could scream for wzl

the awkward energy between myu and wzl reminds me of all those hcs that they’re exes which is actually a hilarious concept

jc didn’t stop wlj from firing off a signal because...he wanted to protect his mother

know what really gets me? both wwx and jc know that this wasn’t wwx’s fault. they talked about the probability of wen attack at the beginning of the episode with jfm! sure, wen chao and wlj have a personal grudge becuase of what happened at the xuanwu cave (how did wen chao know it was lwj and wwx, anyway?) but wwx acting out to save other heir’s lives does not make him responsible for his clan’s massacre, my god. jc may have been the only person who could have reassured wwx after the attack that it was inevitable! but he leans back into the easy hatred and anger of his mother’s last words, because rage is always easier to bear than grief, and he learned to lash out, and wwx is the one left with no support and all the blame

the last words of myu and jfm are different on the surface (and I think, in intent - jfm does care about wwx and I think giving responsibility wasn’t meant to be cold, but really, he’s bad with his kids and wwx needed the reassurance that he never gave) but have the same outcome. three lost and sobbing teenagers adrift, grieving their home and their parents

and one of them, brutally injured already, internalizing the idea that he has to protect the other two at whatever cost to himself, because this is all his fault. and that’s episode 15