#and jon has never said no to bran or arya in his life he has zero (0) immunity to little sibling behaviour

[gazpachoandbooks]

Jon: we are NOT going to adopt three shadowcats Arya

Arya: you haven't yet heard my reasons. Number 1: they are very cute. Number 2: very sharp paws, which makes them cooler. Number 3- could you please look at me?

Jon: I am purposefully NOT looking at you. You are NOT going to use the puppy eyes on me this time

Theon: we really can't keep them?

Arya: holy shit, Theon can do the puppy eyes?

Jon, horrified: and they are WORKING?

[theghostofpyke]

A week of Theon: Truth or Lies

As an frequent reader of Theon escape & recovery fic, I'm aware that a recurring fantasy in fandom and fanfic goes something like this: Robb, Jon, "the Starks", or another main character knew that Theon 'vanished', maybe even that he's held captive by Bolton. They are very angry at Theon for what he did, but when they find out about the torture, they are horrified. Maybe they are spurred into action to help or protect Theon.

I much understand the id-appeal of these types of stories. However, this is, of course, not the story we are told in the books. Personally, the story in the books makes me even more emotional. So for the prompt: "True and Lies" let's look at the truth of who knew about Theon's torture, and what it meant to them:

🐺 Jon 🔥

Jon has been in the know that Theon is being tortured by Ramsay Bolton, specifically flayed, since A Storm Of Swords:

“Jon,” said Maester Aemon, “much and more happened while you were away, and little of it good. Balon Greyjoy has crowned himself again and sent his longships against the north. Kings sprout like weeds at every hand and we have sent appeals to all of them, yet none will come. They have more pressing uses for their swords, and we are far off and forgotten. And Winterfell . . . Jon, be strong . . . Winterfell is no more . . .” “No more?” Jon stared at Aemon’s white eyes and wrinkled face. “My brothers are at Winterfell. Bran and Rickon . . .” The maester touched his brow. “I am so very sorry, Jon. Your brothers died at the command of Theon Greyjoy, after he took Winterfell in his father’s name. When your father’s bannermen threatened to retake it, he put the castle to the torch.” “Your brothers were avenged,” Grenn said. “Bolton’s son killed all the ironmen, and it’s said he’s flaying Theon Greyjoy inch by inch for what he did.” “I’m sorry, Jon.” Pyp squeezed his shoulder. “We are all.” Jon had never liked Theon Greyjoy, but he had been their father’s ward. Another spasm of pain twisted up his leg, and the next he knew he was flat on his back again. “There’s some mistake,” he insisted. “At Queenscrown I saw a direwolf, a grey direwolf . . . grey . . . it knew me.” If Bran was dead, could some part of him live on in his wolf, as Orell lived within his eagle? “Drink this.” Grenn held a cup to his lips. Jon drank. His head was full of wolves and eagles, the sound of his brothers’ laughter. The faces above him began to blur and fade. They can’t be dead. Theon would never do that. And Winterfell . . . grey granite, oak and iron, crows wheeling around the towers, steam rising off the hot pools in the godswood, the stone kings sitting on their thrones . . . how could Winterfell be gone?

In this scene, injured, freshly back from his quite traumatising mission beyond the wall, Jon is quickly filled in by his comrades about what he missed: The fall of Winterfell, Bran and Rickon's murder, Theon's torture.

It's a lot to take in, and Jon reacts with doubt: His warg abilities make him suspect that Bran is still alive, his character judgement make him doubt that Theon would do such a thing. He's right on both counts, but in between everything else going on in his life he doesn't particularly find the time to reflect on it further.

Jon will briefly think of Theon in subsequent chapters: Channels the memory of Theon when using a bow. Mentions Theon when remembering Winterfell. In fact, nearly all of Jon's - few - thoughts about Theon will be in context of Winterfell's loss: Winterfell…. but it was torched by Theon, so it is no more :( Ser Rodrik….. but he was slain by Theon Turncloak. All my memories are poisoned :(

Theon's torture is not on his mind. Grenn told Jon of Theon's torture with the aim to comfort him: Your brothers were slain but they are being avenged! Jon is not particularly comforted, but nor is he disturbed. Jon has one and half books of thinking about what Winterfell means to him and about Bolton in the context of Arya (whom he thinks a lot about) to consider how Theon is faring and if this particular rumor is true; he doesn't. Theon's torture is a minor detail.

🐟 Catelyn 🐺

“Did Ramsay mention Theon Greyjoy?” Robb demanded. “Was he slain as well, or did he flee?” Roose Bolton removed a ragged strip of leather from the pouch at his belt. “My son sent this with his letter.” Ser Wendel turned his fat face away. Robin Flint and Smalljon Umber exchanged a look, and the Greatjon snorted like a bull. “Is that . . . skin?” said Robb. “The skin from the little finger of Theon Greyjoy’s left hand. My son is cruel, I confess it. And yet . . . what is a little skin, against the lives of two young princes? You were their mother, my lady. May I offer you this . . . small token of revenge?” Part of Catelyn wanted to clutch the grisly trophy to her heart, but she made herself resist. “Put it away. Please.” “Flaying Theon will not bring my brothers back,” Robb said. “I want his head, not his skin.” “He is Balon Greyjoy’s only living son,” Lord Bolton said softly, as if they had forgotten, “and now rightful King of the Iron Islands. A captive king has great value as a hostage.” “Hostage?” The word raised Catelyn’s hackles. Hostages were oft exchanged. “Lord Bolton, I hope you are not suggesting that we free the man who killed my sons.” “Whoever wins the Seastone Chair will want Theon Greyjoy dead,” Bolton pointed out. “Even in chains, he has a better claim than any of his uncles. Hold him, I say, and demand concessions from the ironborn as the price of his execution.” Robb considered that reluctantly, but in the end he nodded. “Yes. Very well. Keep him alive, then. For the present. Hold him secure at the Dreadfort till we’ve retaken the north.”

At the Twins, Roose tells all present - Catelyn, Robb, Wendel Manderly, Robin Flint, Smalljon Umber - of Theon's torture, bringing grisly proof: A piece of Theon's skin.

As Grenn did with Jon, the knowledge that Theon is being tortured is offered as comfort. Catelyn is comforted.

“Your first duty is to defend your own people, win back Winterfell, and hang Theon in a crow’s cage to die slowly. Or else put off that crown for good, Robb, for men will know that you are no true king at all.”

(Catelyn speaking to Robb)

When she said that, it felt as though a giant hand were squeezing her chest. “I want them all dead, Brienne. Theon Greyjoy first, then Jaime Lannister and Cersei and the Imp, every one, every one. But my girls . . . my girls will . . .”

(Catelyn speaking to Brienne)

Catelyn, who has been openly fantasising and demanding Theon's death and Theon's torture from the young warriors at her side (Brienne, Robb) in prior chapters, is actively opposed to Theon being helped, freed or rescued. The thought of Theon getting freed from Bolton's clutches is upsetting to her.

🐺 Robb ⚔️

In the same conversation, Robb learns of Theon's torture. He disapproves: Flaying Theon will not bring my brothers back. I want his head, not his skin.

He, however, also doesn't oppose it. He doesn't forbid it. He doesn't punch Roose in the face. He doesn't gather his men to hurriedly ride to the Dreadfort. He doesn't demand Ramsay's head. (I list a few fanfic scenarios, here).

When faced with sound tactical reasoning, Robb explicitly allows Theon's ongoing captivity at the hands of Ramsay. Even while knowing Ramsay is torturing Theon. Even with the information that Ramsay is in charge and Ramsay is "cruel" as per Roose's words.

Notably, Robb doesn't qualify his approval of Theon's ongoing captivity with something like: Very well, keep him alive and treat him well / stop torturing him / don't cut any more piece off him. It's just: Very well, keep him alive, for the present." Robb allows Theon's captivity to go on as is.

🪝 White Harbor🧜

Davos thought back on the tales they’d heard. “Winterfell was captured by Theon Greyjoy, who had once been Lord Stark’s ward. He had Stark’s two young sons put to death and mounted their heads above the castle walls. When the northmen came to oust him, he put the entire castle to sword, down to the last child, before he himself was slain by Lord Bolton’s bastard.” “Not slain,” said Glover. “Captured, and carried back to the Dreadfort. The Bastard has been flaying him.” Lord Wyman nodded. “The tale you tell is one we all have heard, as full of lies as a pudding’s full of raisins."

Just another example of how well-known the tale of Theon's captivity and torture is. Davos, Robett Glover and Manderly have been at different places at different times, but all of them have heard the same tale of Theon's flaying.

🦑 Asha 🪓

Asha Greyjoy was seated in Galbart Glover’s longhall drinking Galbart Glover’s wine when Galbart Glover’s maester brought the letter to her. “My lady.” The maester’s voice was anxious, as it always was when he spoke to her. “A bird from Barrowton.” He thrust the parchment at her as if he could not wait to be rid of it. It was tightly rolled and sealed with a button of hard pink wax. Barrowton. Asha tried to recall who ruled in Barrowton. Some northern lord, no friend of mine. And that seal … the Boltons of the Dreadfort went into battle beneath pink banners spattered with little drops of blood. It only stood to reason that they would use pink sealing wax as well. This is poison that I hold, she thought. I ought to burn it. Instead she cracked the seal. A scrap of leather fluttered down into her lap. When she read the dry brown words, her black mood grew blacker still. Dark wings, dark words. The ravens never brought glad tidings. The last message sent to Deepwood had been from Stannis Baratheon, demanding homage. This was worse. “The northmen have taken Moat Cailin.” “The Bastard of Bolton?” asked Qarl, beside her. “Ramsay Bolton, Lord of Winterfell, he signs himself. But there are other names as well.” Lady Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own signatures beneath his. Beside them was drawn a crude giant, the mark of some Umber. Those were done in maester’s ink, made of soot and coal tar, but the message above was scrawled in brown in a huge, spiky hand. It spoke of the fall of Moat Cailin, of the triumphant return of the Warden of the North to his domains, of a marriage soon to be made. The first words were, “I write this letter in the blood of ironmen,” the last, “I send you each a piece of prince. Linger in my lands, and share his fate.” Asha had believed her little brother dead. Better dead than this. The scrap of skin had fallen into her lap. She held it to the candle and watched the smoke curl up, until the last of it had been consumed and the flame was licking at her fingers. Galbart Glover’s maester hovered expectantly at her elbow. “There will be no answer,” she informed him.

I'll admit that the timelines are a bit confused to me, but it seems to me that Asha is one of the last of our named characters to learn about Theon's fate. Prior to this letter, she thought Theon dead.

We have several indications that the ironborn as a people and the Greyjoys as family have not been informed of Theon's captivity and survival, nor of his torture:

Before the priest could answer Gorold Goodbrother, the maester's mouth flapped open once again. "By rights the Seastone Chair belongs to Theon, or Asha if the prince is dead. That is the law."

Or Asha if the prince is dead. They don't know if he is. He might be.

They had spoken in the Sea Tower, as the wind howled outside the windows and the waves crashed restlessly below. Balon had shaken his head in despair when he heard what Aeron had to tell him of his last remaining son. "The wolves have made a weakling of him, as I feared," the king had said. "I pray god that they killed him, so he cannot stand in Asha's way."

Well, this is brutal, but clearly, Balon never knew what happened to Theon. Balon has many faults but this kind of sneaky dishonesty isn't one. Had he known about Theon's captivity and torture, he would not have claimed ignorance.

And Theon, if he lived, was just as hopeless, a boy of sulks and smiles. At Winterfell he proved his worth, such that it was, but the Crow's Eye was no crippled boy.

Aeron, too, is in the dark on whether Theon survived.

Only now do the ironborn receive letters telling them of Theon's situation. The letters don't aim to negotiate Theon's future, nor do they offer his death or release (understandable, as they are written by Ramsay, who wants to keep Theon for himself). They use Theon's fate as threat and show of force. This is happening to him, this could happen to you.

"Each of you" implies several such letters were sent. Asha. Dagmer would seem likely. Maybe some more along the Stony Shore? Unclear to me whether the Iron Islands proper (aka Euron or Erik Ironmaker who rules the Iron Islands as Euron's steward in his absence) have gotten a similar letter yes or no.

Asha is very affected by this letter. Most of this chapter she spends ruminating and reacting to her (lack of) options:

What does it matter? My father’s dead, my mother’s dying, my brother’s being flayed, and there’s naught that I can do about any of it.

But at least once it is implied she might have wanted to go rescue Theon, had she been able to.

She could turn merchanter, as Tris seemed to want, or else make for the Stepstones and join the pirates there. Or … “I send you each a piece of prince,” she muttered.

I read this as: Or… she could go find Theon.

She won't be able to, as immediately after, Deepwood Motte gets attacked and conquered by Stannis' forces and Asha taken prisoner.

She'll keep thinking of Theon and Theon's fate several times, in brief, vague memories tingued with guilt, often connected to her mother.

🩸Some Context 🩸

On the one hand, torture is normalised in the world these characters inhabit.

Manderly has a torturer. Stannis has a torturer. Jon Snow, some chapters prior, learned that Qhorin Halfhand had wildlings tortured. One of them Qhorin had tortured to death and "too quickly for him to be of much use". Jon is not upset by this and will come to respect Qhorin.

People get tortured for all sorts of reasons: To question them, to threaten others, to provide particularly gruesome deaths that leave an effect on enemies or allies (and so on).

On the other hand, there are some rules.

The flayed man was the sigil of House Bolton, Theon knew; ages past, certain of their lords had gone so far as to cloak themselves in the skins of dead enemies. A number of Starks had ended thus. Supposedly all that had stopped a thousand years ago, when the Boltons had bent their knees to Winterfell.

We learn, for instance, that the Boltons had to stop cloaking themselves in their enemies' skin when they bent the knee to Winterfell. It's somewhat unclear to me here if flaying as torture method at all was banned or "cloaking themselves in their enmies' skin" in specific.

After all, not only Joffrey but also the good Blackfish Tully throws threats of flaying people around, which would imply that flaying is not per se considered too abominable to consider.

“I mean,” said the Blackfish, “that you owe His Grace your thanks for his forbearance. He played out that mummer’s farce in the Great Hall so as not to shame you before your own people. Had it been me I would have flayed you for your stupidity rather than praising this folly of the fords.”

The Blackfish is not serious in this threat (probably) but think of violence you (your culture) would consider truly descipable. Would you, even unseriously, as "a good person", boast of doing this to someone?

The Bolton banner is considered abominable, though. There's a rumour about a room in the Dreadfort where the Boltons hang their enemies's skins deemed dreadful enough by at least the Stark children to be suspected to be "only one of Old Nan's stories"

"Gods, I was so scared. And the Greatjon’s not the worst of them, only the loudest. Lord Roose never says a word, he only looks at me, and all I can think of is that room they have in the Dreadfort, where the Boltons hang the skins of their enemies.” “That’s just one of Old Nan’s stories,” Bran said. A note of doubt crept into his voice. “Isn’t it?” “I don’t know.” He gave a weary shake of his head.

(Robb talking to Bran)

So flaying yay or nay is is a bit ambiguous to me, but

Roose himself calls Ramsay's treatment of Theon exceptionally "cruel"

Manderly & Co discuss Ramsay as extremely cruel abnomaly, and house Bolton as "cunning and cruel"

Barbrey Dustin reacts with horror to seeing Theon, which tells us that the way Ramsay treats his prisoner is considered beyond the realm of "normal", even in this brutal world, even by vengeful, vindictive women like Barbrey who do not shy away from a little cruelty

If we assume that flaying was in fact banned in the North, when Bolton spreads the word that Theon is being flayed by his Bastard, he's conducting a double PR-move:

One, rejoice in our mistreatment of the turncloak who destroyed Winterfell and Winterfell's heirs. (Invoking the memory of Stark to cement their power; "we are avenging Winterfell")

Two, we are flaying again, and don't you in fact like it? (Defying the memory of Stark to show that They are now in charge according to their Own rules. Stark might have banned flaying, but we flay. A power-move against the memory of Stark.)

What is being done to Theon is then something that "should not" be considered acceptable (this is no honourable way to treat prisoners; this is an exceptional and cruel mode of punishment; skinning your enemies is abominable; it was banned; this is not a regular hazard of going to battle and being a war prisoner) yet it is, because it speaks to people's desires and political needs that if it is done to Theon we will accept and even welcome it.

"Theon is secretly tortured" vs. "Theon is publicly tortured and the world approves" makes for two very different stories and very different narratives for Theon, as well.

There's no recuperation, here. There's no "if they had known they would have".

It is simply that Theon's mistreatment is the price that is being paid. To maintain or reinstate power in the North. To create order. To manage a story of heroes (us) and villains (them; vanquished, under our control, punished). This is true of Theon as a child taken hostage and it is true of Theon as young adult getting tortured.

The knowing of it is the point. For a surviving Theon, it means living in a world that approved of his captivity and a world that approved of his torture. I think that very compelling and if GRRM ever writes these books I look forward to seeing this Theon.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

A book passage makes me forever sad about Jon:

[...] Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe from his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon. And even that he'd lost. When a man of the Night's Watch said his words, he put aside his old family to join his new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers, too.

ASOS - JON III

At that point of the story Jon had lost not one but two families (his pack in Winterfell and his Black brothers). And neither time by his own decision. His father (with Lady Catelyn and Maester Luwin's influence) decided to send him to the Wall and Halfhand was the one who thought of the plan of Jon pretending to be a turncloak.

In my opinion, the saddest part of this quote is where he questions Arya's relation to him. He always were a great, supportive older brother for Arya and he's in fact her favourite sibling. We have also witness time after time that he has genuine love towards his siblings, he's nothing like what Lady Stark fears he would be or how westerosi society paints children born out of wedlock to be.

And yet, despite his feelings for his siblings being genuine, he still feels inferior to them (and how can he not? That's what everyone taught him). He loves them and knows they love him back but he's not one of them. They are Starks, he's Snow. They are the lordings of Winterfell and him the Lord's bastard. According to westerosi society it's their right to live in Winterfell and have a life of luxury while he only lives there as long as the Castle's Lord - his father- allows it.

Winterfell should be his home as much as it's Robb's, Sansa's, Arya's, Bran's and Rickon's.Still, he felt as welcomed there as Theon ; who was a hostage.

[agentrouka-blog]

Targaryens were not magically attracted to each other, it was social conditioning that made it ok for them to be so. Cultures where cousin marriage is allowed, cousins do feel attraction and love towards each other. Cultures where its seen as taboo, no one would even think like that. Its the same for sibling incest. No normal person wakes up one day and gets attracted to their sibling or someone they think of as a sibling, there are always some influencing external factors. You can say Jaime/Cersei but they were influenced by Tywin's ambition of wanting to be like Targaryens. His mentality that Lannister are superior to other lesser mortals is exactly that of Targaryens and this reasoning is what Jaehaerys used to justify sibling incest. So Jaime and Cersei literally grew up hearing this, why won't they think its okay for them to love each other like Targaryens, after all their father wanted to be like them in all other aspects? This is why I think its impossible for Jon to ever feel attraction towards Arya and vice versa, because they wholeheartedly think of each other as siblings and they have grown up without any conditioning that makes sibling incest okay, meanwhile with Sansa there is always the added factor of them considering the other 'half' sibling, its not always spelled out but they are written in such a way that we do get the gist they love each other but its not the same as with their other 'actual' siblings. George has really done his best to lay the ground to make any romantic relationship between digestible lmao.

(post referenced)

Hi anon!

Ah yes, that non-existent magical Targ attraction that is invoked to cover up the level of generational trauma and legacy of abuse and indoctrination that informs these "choices".

I mean, this sure as hell is not meant to be viewed with alarm, I suppose:

Daenerys said nothing. She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian. (AGOT, Daenerys I)

If he had been nicer to her, would Dany have coped with this expectation by talking herself into a devoted attraction to her heroic older brother who protected her all her life? Much like Sansa invented a palatable reality with Joffrey after the Trident?

And the thing is, never mind Cersei and Jaime those two warped Targ-cosplayers, even relationship between Jon and Sansa is absolutely due to a traumatic fracture within the Stark family dynamic.

Ned's claimed infidelity, Jon's resulting bastardy, and most of all the patriarchic power Ned had, to place Jon into the rest of their family without any explanation or any consent from Catelyn... that's a massive ripple in what otherwise masquerades as harmonious and respectful mutual treatment. It introduces the brutal power differential between men and women, between upper and lower classes right into the middle of their childhood home.

For most of the siblings this is a thing they block out enough to foster a close relationship with Jon - and they ignore or cannot yet grasp what this truly means for him, for Catelyn, for society in general. But they do know, from Bran to Arya to Robb, they know.

And so does Sansa, and her comparative isolation from the boys and identification with Cat's role makes her perhaps the most aware of what Jon represents, for himself and for her. Double realities and denial are a defensive trait she develops. As is her idealisation of romance.

His identity and the way he grows up privileged but without permanence - it others Jon. Not only to his family, but also to himself, who grows up with (to him) shameful longings for unattainable things, and a fear of the social prejudices against his core character. He has no normal relationship with himself, with his desires, with his identity.

The mix of distance and closeness, the discomfiting breach of a social boundary in the pursuit of a deep-seated longing for repair... that's definitely a part of Jonsa. They are receptive to each other in a way they normally would not be. They are a bit wonky that way. But unlike with the Targaryren practice of incest, theirs is a voluntary, spontaneous attraction they will freely struggle with or act upon at their own volition.

Basically, while the relationship becomes "magically" okay through the surprise revelation of RLJ, we are still talking about an attraction and romance that would not be happening if they had not also grown up warped at their core.

Luckily for them, there is that escape clause.

You did it to yourself, Ned.

[daughter-of-winterfell]

My Own Dancing Body

- for the Jonsa Valentine's Day Event 2024 ❤️

“Let me make you some tea,” Jon entreats her, matching her half step. The suggestion is a perfect one and Sansa’s eyes, of their own accord, dart to his. Sincerity lies in wait there with the warmth of banked coals, and hides whatever else he must think, finding her in this bedraggled way. - Sansa returns to East 61st Street close to tears and is met by her cousin Jon. There, he makes her lemon tea and they talk gently with one another.

This is written with great haste/love for @jonsa-valentine, and is the first fanfic I have really written in years! I have posted it 41 minutes past midnight but emotionally, I did this on the 13th ❤️

The types of love in this fic are: Philia (deep friendship) and Storge (familial love).

In this, (as is custom it seems), only the younger Starks are alive and only Sansa travelled to New York to stay with her Aunt Lyanna and Cousin Jon for a season.

To read on AO3: https://archiveofourown.org/works/53760841

I am the angel who sweep air in and out my own dancing body.

- Angela Jackson, Angel

The hem of her day dress – which her mother had once so painstakingly let down and secured – is dripping and unsalvageable. Sansa could cry, the tears already clawing up her throat and pricking at her insides. The puddle in the foyer only grows as it seems the entirety of the brief shower has been dragged inside on her ragged hem, and the pale pink has been left a murky grey.

Sansa sniffs dismally. She is alone, blessedly so after that, and so wipes her nose with her soaked gloves.

It must be a portent. That on the very first day she no longer wears her clutching, tight-laced mourning dresses, Mr Hardyng decides to propose and the heavens open. Her hands shiver, where they are pressed against her roiling stomach.

And she’d so longed to wear pink again. How girlish and unseemly, but black is not her colour – it drains her features when they’d been drained enough. All life had been scraped from her in the past year. Black lace only meant that all the twittering aunts and ladies could easily spy it for themselves.

Lyanna had said, “Oh, my dear,” when Sansa had arrived in her black cloistered dress, sweating and breathless, on the steps of her East 61st Street home. Her pity was piercing and bright when she rubbed the back of Sansa’s glove.

They had not been able to make it to the funeral, but Lyanna still wore a black pin above her heart for her brother and his family, and her own husband, lost at sea.

The melancholy sweeps through her then with a tidal ebb. An ever-deep sorrow for her mother, Father, Robb. For Bran, travelling far from them with so few letters returned. The dear ache of missing Arya and Rickon, safely ensconced in Riverrun.

Undeniably, a spare ounce of it is for her ruined dress and sodden gloves.

 She is not crying but her face is tight and disgustingly, humiliating damp.

“Miss Stark?”

Hastily, she sniffs in a shockingly unladylike manner and dips her neck, tipping the brim of her hat to somewhat shield herself. Embarrassment coils itself about her ankles and Sansa can only shuffle in the lake she is procuring for herself in Mrs Snow’s pristine hallway.

 It couldn’t be Bannister who found her, or Jeyne. It had to be –

 “Sansa, my dear-”

Jon cleaves his words in two, his footsteps halting an eternity away. She can’t look at him with her burning eyes and pink cheeks, in her poor, piteous state. Sansa hates herself then. What other state has Jon seen her in, since their introduction this season? Piteous and poor and weeping. On their doorstep that first day, when being snubbed by his haughty Targaryen aunt and uncle.

Yet, who else could see her in such a way? Could be allowed to? Whatever is in his eyes – which she assiduously avoids meeting now – there has never, not once, been pity.

He had been the first to wrap his arms around her in months. To dare not murmur any condolences at all.

The first she wishes to reach for, at each luncheon and ball and dinner.

Though she does not now. But the brim of her hat is no match for the hand he extends, bearing a white handkerchief. Sansa takes it from his fingers and dabs at the stinging corners of her eyes.

“Such terrible weather” – Sansa sighs in a manner suited to the stage, determined to seem somewhat unaffected - “I remember you saying I would not need my parasol today.”

His chuckle is a whiskey shot that steals her living breath.

“You would not listen to my counsel, dear cousin.”

The softening of his vowels, the tapping of his shoes – her affectations are whisps of smoke he merely blows apart. He has caught her. Thawing in the hall, in her favourite dress, almost in tears. The dance of custom would be to retreat once the white flag had been offered and accepted and reasoned away.

Jon crosses an inch of the wooden floor.

“I shall dry off and escape this chill,” Sansa declares, taking half a step to the right, towards the solitude offered by the Snow’s guest bedroom.

“Let me make you some tea,” Jon entreats her, matching her half step, “as you do so.”

The suggestion is a perfect one and Sansa’s eyes, of their own accord, dart to his. Sincerity lies in wait there with the warmth of banked coals, and hides whatever else he must think, finding her in this bedraggled way.

She inclines her head, agreeing to the tea, and endeavours not to scuttle away like some anxious creature as Jon remains at the foot of the stairs, one hand outstretched on the banister.

“If I asked,” Jon asks, cradling a cup of tea in his steady hands, perched opposite her cross-legged, straight-spined position at the dining room table, “would you tell me?”

Tell me of what happened to bring you to such a poor and piteous state, in my hallway.

Or more likely, as it is her Jon asking, tell me what made you cry.

“The rain brings out the dreariness in me,” she blusters, half afraid of what may fall from her mouth, “Please, do not worry.”

The crease between his brows tells her his thoughts like a worn book; he worries about me, regardless of what I say.

Her news will not ease that burden for him, yet it spills from her in a heaving rush. How Mr Hardyng had invited her with such grace to his opening of the new rose garden and how she had – foolishly – shed her mourning clothes with a great sigh to attend as the man’s acquaintance. How it was an orchestrated ambush and he had gripped her hands between his and declared her his fiancée when met with her astonished silence.

How no one had spoken a word when she broke that silence and torn her hands from his and the rain poetically chose to drench the entire gaping party. And her pink dress, the one her mother had always loved, was now speckled with mud and puddle-water.

“He should not have taken your hands in that way.”

Jon’s gruff disapproval of the matter of Hardyng overstepping her bodily comforts does not grate as it ought. He shakes his head, dislodging an inky curl from its manicured hold. Likely thinking of how he could have removed Hardyng’s hands from her with a degree of force, as he had done at too many of the balls they had attended at one another’s side this season.

“It is no serious matter.”

He says her name, feather-soft.

“If that was the entirety of it, perhaps it would be, but Jon -” Sansa’s breath hitches and she releases her teacup with a clatter. Oh god.

Without seeming to listen, Jon is consumed, swirling his lemon tea. It is his turn to avoid her gaze.

“He should not have asked at all,” he mutters darkly.

She has just left the black behind so it is not seemly to pounce upon her so, but Jon seems to frown more fiercely than Hardyng’s faux pas deserves.

Swallowing the dismay of her own recollections, she ignores his scowls and continues, chin high and trembling. “Jon, I turned him down, vehemently. What other man will forget that?”

He stills.

Her hands shake against the dining room table as Jon, purposely and with the expression of a man pierced through and through, meets her eyes. Covers her hand with no weight at all.

“I do not need to forget. If – I asked…”

Courage deserts him with a fell swoop and Sansa turns her hand over in careful inches. Soon lacing their tea-warmed hands into one. And she is free, miraculously, of the prickling, shaking, nausea that poisoned her in the hall. It is just her, and her Jon.

“We’re family,” Jon manages, the embers in his gaze alight again and like a looking glass, Sansa knows him, knows his meaning. We could be a family.

They could be. They could dance with one another that inch closer and share lemon tea as dusk falls and they dream of spring.

 Her heartbeat swells, a symphony, and lulls into a new pleasant calmness.

“More tea, my dearest Jon?”

He does not release her hands and her laughing offer is not accepted. Rather, the hearth of his heart opens and the teacups are forgotten as their foreheads touch, gentle across the scant table cloth that rudely divides them.

Lemon tea and dancing can come later. For now, Sansa is held and is warm.

[istumpysk]

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = Jon Snow (N + A = J)

TIER:

Debunked: These theories have been directly contradicted by the text, George R. R. Martin, or other authoritative sources.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

Ashara Dayne was a Dornish noblewoman, rumored to be Jon Snow's mother. Her life ended under mysterious and tragic circumstances.

We're first told of the rumor that Ashara Dayne is Jon Snow's supposed mother in one of the opening chapters of A Game of Thrones.

Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again. - Catelyn II, AGOT

The name resurfaces when Cersei Lannister, who has evidently heard the same rumors, uses Ashara to challenge Ned's honor.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?" - Eddard XII, AGOT

In the next book, Catelyn once again ponders the possibility that Ashara might be Jon's mother.

Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine. She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine? They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him. - Catelyn VI, ACOK

When Bran hears the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, we learn more about Ned and Ashara's initial meeting and their dance at Harrenhal.

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. - Bran II, ASOS

In an Arya chapter, Edric Dayne of House Dayne—presumably someone with insider knowledge—reveals more details about Ned and Ashara's alleged love affair. Harwin confirms that he has also heard such rumors.

"My father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born." "Why would she do that?" said Arya, startled. Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. "Your lord father never spoke of her?" he said. "The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?" "No. Did he know her?" "Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring." "Oh." Arya did not know what else to say. "Why did she jump in the sea, though?" "Her heart was broken." Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn't say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. "Did someone break it?" He hesitated. "Perhaps it's not my place . . ." "Tell me." He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—" "That's not so. He loved my lady mother." "I'm sure he did, my lady, but—" "She was the only one he loved." "He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then," Gendry said behind them. [...] It was Harwin who rode up beside her, in the end. "Where do you think you're going, milady? You shouldn't run off. There are wolves in these woods, and worse things." "I'm not afraid," she said. "That boy Ned said . . ." "Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged." - Arya VIII, ASOS

Barristan Selmy, who was present at Harrenhal and held great fondness for Ashara Dayne, recalls her suicide over a lost child and/or a man dishonoring her. He wonders whether he could have prevented her becoming enamored with "Stark."

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? - The Kingbreaker, ADWD

Lastly, Catelyn mentions that Ned refers to Jon as his son, a claim corroborated in the book's opening chapter.

"Beyond a doubt," his lord father said. "Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now." He sent his horse into a trot. Jory and Bran and the rest came after. - Bran I, AGOT

x

The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. - Catelyn II, AGOT

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

God, where do we begin?

The confirmation from George R. R. Martin to David Benioff and D.B. Weiss regarding Jon's true parentage.

It's well known that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss correctly guessed Jon's true parents, giving George R. R. Martin the confidence to let them adapt his book series.

Martin recounted, "I did ask them a few pointed question to determine whether they had actually read the books, and they gave me the right answers." When asked to specify what they were grilled on, Weiss elaborated: He asked us, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point. — The 'Game of Thrones' writers had to answer this trick question about the book before they were allowed to make the series

Who were Jon's parents in the television series adapted and written by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss?

Right.

The leaked original outline.

Here.

Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Until. Until.

Let me point out the obvious here: if Jon were Ned's child with Ashara Dayne, there would be no parentage reveal that could relieve the torment felt by Jon and Arya. They would still be half-siblings, and it would still be unacceptable for them to be in love. Not much of a reveal then, is it?

The original intended purpose of revealing Jon's parentage was not to place him on a throne or to fulfill a special prophecy; rather, it was to pave the way for a possible romance with a sister. This doesn't work if Ned Stark is his father.

The timeline simply doesn't add up.

The tourney at Harrenhal, where Ned danced with Ashara, took place in 281 AC. Ned traveled down from the Eyrie.

It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. - Eddard XV, AGOT

The year after that tournament, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, leading to the eventual deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark, and the start of Robert's Rebellion.

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides. - The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Ned Stark had returned to the Eyrie following the tournament.

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. [...]" - Davos I, ADWD

Robert's Rebellion spanned 282-283 AC.

Are you wondering what Ned was up to during that time? I'll tell you.

(map!)

Ned Stark was in the Eyrie when King Aerys demanded his head.

Unable to use Gulltown, he crossed the Mountains of the Moon to get to the Fingers.

He then hired a fisherman to take him to White Harbor, but a storm rerouted him to the Three Sisters.

Thankfully, Lord Borrell granted him safe passage to continue on to White Harbor.

Upon reaching Winterfell, Ned immediately called his banners.

He subsequently marched south to the Stoney Sept and helped secure a victory in the Battle of the Bells.

Following that battle, he travelled to Riverrun and married Catelyn Tully.

At this point, Robb Stark was conceived.

Around this same period, Jon Snow should also have been conceived.

After that, Ned participated in the Battle of the Trident, contributing to the defeat of House Targaryen's forces (laugh out loud).

He then marched to King's Landing, only to find that Tywin Lannister had already sacked the city.

Note: Ashara Dayne was not present.

He then moved on to Storm's End to lift the siege, thereby saving Stannis Baratheon (and pissing me off).

Following this, he travelled to the Tower of Joy in the Red Mountains of Dorne. There, he defeated Arthur Dayne among others, and discovered his dying sister, Lyanna Stark.

Before her death, Lyanna made Ned promise her something. (Prioritize self-care? Never stop learning? Forgive yourself for past mistakes? Save and invest? Be the best you can be? Gosh, who could say.)

After the events at the Tower of Joy, he travelled to Starfall, the home of Ashara Dayne, to return the ancestral sword of House Dayne.

Note: He did not stay for 40 weeks.

Finally, Ned returned to Winterfell, bringing with him a baby and a wet nurse.

Shortly after, Catelyn Stark arrived at Winterfell with Robb Stark, who was considered the older of the two babies by literally everyone.

The end.

So, I ask you, given that Jon wasn't conceived at the tournament at Harrenhal in 281 AC—

Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice. - Bran I, AGOT

x

Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. - Catelyn II, AGOT

x

When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. - Catelyn II, AGOT

x

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts. - George R. R. Martin

—when exactly, during Robert's Rebellion, did Ned manage to teleport himself to Ashara Dayne to conceive this child?

Catelyn Stark is a smart woman, but sometimes emotional distress can cloud one's judgment.

The Brandon Stark Consideration.

In true George R. R. Martin fashion, there's hints that another Stark may be more relevant to Ashara Dayne.

Ned Dayne casually mentions that Ashara met not only Ned at Harrenhal, but also his brothers.

"Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring." - Arya VIII, ASOS

When Bran hears about Ned and Ashara's dance, an ellipsis of truth clarifies that this occurred only after a conversation between Brandon Stark and Ashara.

[What the hell is an ellipsis of truth? George R. R. Martin frequently uses an ellipsis as a technique to emphasize statements in the text that are highly relevant or truthful.]

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. - Bran II, ASOS

Barristan's reference to 'Stark' is amusingly vague and non-identifying.

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? - The Kingbreaker, ADWD

In A Dance with Dragons, we learn that unlike Ned Stark, Brandon Stark was the type of guy to dishonor a highborn woman he had no intention of marrying.

Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. - The Turncloak, ADWD

I have a feeling we'll hear more and more about Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne in the upcoming books.

The complete and total absence of Ashara Dayne in Ned Stark's thoughts.

Ned Stark is an introspective man, often dwelling on past events and his family. So why is it that in all his chapters, he never once thinks of Ashara Dayne, his great love and the alleged mother of one of his children, who tragically took her own life?

He doesn't reflect on her when thinking about Jon, while recalling Robert's Rebellion, when considering Arthur Dayne, or even during his recollections of the tournament at Harrenhal where they supposedly fell in love.

It sort of feels like the woman means absolutely nothing to him.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?" "For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow." - Eddard II, AGOT

Nothing! Unaffected. Unfazed. It rolled right off him.

Confused Edric Dayne.

Edric Dayne tells Arya that his aunt, Allyria, told him that Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal.

A few things to consider:

Edric Dayne was born in 287 AC, well after the events of Harrenhal and the Rebellion.

Arya got goosebumps when Lord Beric said her father's name, but this Ned was only a boy, a fair-haired squire no more than ten or twelve. - Arya VI, ASOS

Edric Dayne doesn't actually believe Ashara is Jon's mother. He thinks Jon's mother was his wet nurse, Wylla.

(I hope I don't have to point out again that Ned Stark didn't stay at Starfall for 40 weeks, and this story makes no sense.)

(I'm sure I also don't need to point out that the author prevents little Ned from claiming something factually untrue and swearing it on the honor of his house.)

"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?" "Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me." Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?" "Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born." "Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name." Arya gave Ned a wary look. "You know her? Truly?" Is he making mock of me? "If you lie I'll punch your face." "Wylla was my wetnurse," he repeated solemnly. "I swear it on the honor of my House." - Arya VIII, ASOS

But what about his aunt Allyria, who told him Ned and Ashara fell in love?

Well, we don't know a lot about Allyria, but we do know one thing: she was betrothed to Beric Dondarrion in 294 AC or 295 AC.

"How long have you been Lord Beric's squire?" she asked, to take his mind from his misery. "He took me for his page when he espoused my aunt." He coughed. "I was seven, but when I turned ten he raised me to squire. I won a prize once, riding at rings." - Arya VIII, ASOS

Beric Dondarrion was born in either 276 AC or 277 AC. He was 21 years old at the beginning of A Game of Thrones, which would make him a young boy during the tournament of Harrenhal and the Rebellion.

Beric Dondarrion was handsome enough, but he was awfully old, almost twenty-two - Sansa III, AGOT

Given cultural norms, Beric's age, and the year of their betrothal, what is the likelihood that Allyria is younger than Beric? I'd say very likely.

That would make her a little girl during the events of Harrenhal and the Rebellion, so it's doubtful she has firsthand knowledge of Ashara or Ned.

The "son" issue.

Yes, Ned refers to Jon as his son in Bran's opening chapter. Yes, Catelyn claims Ned calls Jon his son. However, I have to point out, we're often shown Ned referring to Jon as anything but his son.

"He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. [...]" - Catelyn II, AGOT

x

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned." - Catelyn II, AGOT

x

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? - Eddard IX, AGOT

x

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?" Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart." "No less do I love mine." Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. - Eddard XII, AGOT

x

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him - Eddard XV, AGOT

x

Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …" - Bran III, ADWD

Other things to consider:

Quick question, what impact would Jon's identity as a secret Dayne have on the overall narrative? None. Hello?

Anyone with two brain cells should be able to figure out that when the book quickly reveals Ashara Dayne as Jon's real mother, that's obviously not the case.

It's pretty easy to tell that Ned Stark is not the type of man to cheat on his wife or dishonor a maiden. He's the quiet wolf who's too shy to speak to girls.

While George has never explicitly confirmed the R+L=J theory himself, he has been known to slip once or twice when being pressed on the topic.

Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names? Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned. - George R. R. Martin

Lastly, and most important,

THE INESCAPABLE, OVERWHELMING, INDISPUTABLE, OPEN-AND-SHUT, CRYSTAL CLEAR, AVALANCHE OF EVIDENCE THAT CAN BE FOUND IN EVERY SINGLE BOOK AND SUPPLEMENTARY MATERIAL POINTING TO LYANNA STARK AND RHAEGAR TARGARYEN BEING JON SNOW'S ACTUAL PARENTS. HOLY FUCK.

Is there more? Probably. But I'm tired and I think I've made enough points.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

I hate this theory like I hate flat earthers.

Just out there being stupid for no reason.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

The Hound is the gravedigger.

[Main menu]

[lovebaela]

Ice & Fire ༄ Pt. 11 (Bran Stark x Targaryen oc fanfic)

⋇ Chapter 11: The Wedding ⋇

Warnings: Smut (again I tried LOL)

Tsireya’s POV

A few days before the wedding, the houses of the North came to Winterfell to talk about the marriage. They were at first skeptical about me, until the Starks defended me. “She has been raised along side us before the war,” Sansa said, “we have full trust in her.” After getting that out of the way, I had to figure out which dress I wanted. Sansa and Arya, of course, helped me pick one.

We all met up in the godswood again, requested by Bran. He was really ticked off, he saw in the past all that Little Finger did. He told us and we were shocked. “So…he was the one who sent that assassin?” I asked. He nodded, “yes..” “I knew he couldn’t be completely trusted but wow, he started everything!” Sansa said, growing angry. We held a trial for Little Finger, of course he denied all the accusations, but Bran brought up everything he did from the past. He begged for his life, especially to Sansa, but that wasn’t going to work. Arya passed Bran a sword. He whispered to himself, “the man who passes the sentence swings the sword…” he sentenced Little Finger to death and sliced his head off. At least we don’t have to worry about him anymore.

The day before the wedding is Bran’s coronation. He had to proceed into the Great Hall on horseback like he did before. But instead of doing it as a Prince, he did it as a King. It felt like just yesterday when we had the harvest.

Before he trotted in, the Lords of each Northern house drew out their swords and rose them up. As he passed each Lord, they lowered their swords. Once he sat down at the high table, the maester placed the crown on his head. Everyone chanted, “King of the North!” Just like that, the day was already over. Everyone went to bed extra early for tomorrow.

My maids helped me get dressed in my wedding gown. Sansa and Arya were also in my room too. I decided to put my hair up instead of letting it flow.

“You look so beautiful,” Sansa said.

“Like a queen,” Arya smiled.

“Thank you guys,” I said. I gave them both a big hug, “well, I guess it’s time.” Sansa and Arya nodded and left the room so they could go to their spot outside in the godswood. I thanked the maids and dismissed them too.

When it was finally my queue to go, I took a deep breath and left my room. The sun was starting to go down, such a beautiful scenery. I walked in front of the trail that had lanterns on both sides leading all the way down to the tree. Everyone stopped talking and turned to see me. They all gasped in awe. Bran’s eyes widened as he saw me, making me grin a little. He looked so handsome, dressed in black, kingly attire. I started walking down the aisle, hearing people whispering compliments.

We are both 18 now, man and woman. If only everyone else could see us, how far we have come.

I started to imagine what the wedding also could’ve been like. I pictured Jon, Robb, Rickon, Lord Eddard, and the girls by Bran’s side. For my side, I pictured my mother and the rest of my family. What hit me hard the most was thinking about my father. He could have been the one to walk me down, giving me to Bran. I also thought of Hodor, Jojen, and Summer. I looked up and saw our dragons circling the ceremony, watching from above. I finally made it to Bran and the maester in front of the tree.

“We are gathered here today to witness the union of man and woman. Brandon of House Stark, King of the North, son of Eddard Stark and Lady Tsireya of House Targaryen, daughter of Daeron Targaryen.” the maester announced, “now, King Brandon Stark, do you take this woman?”

Bran looked deeply into my eyes, “yes, I take this woman.”

“And you, Lady Tsireya Targaryen, do you take this man?”

I never broke eye contact with Bran, “yes, I take this man..”

We both move closer to each other and hold each other’s hand. Then we face the tree and kneel before it, in prayer and meditation. We both stood back up. “Now you may take your bride under your protection,” the maester told Bran. He removed the cloak from his shoulders and placed it on mine. Then the Maester approached me with a crown, placing it on my head, “Tsireya Targaryen Stark, our Queen of the North!”

Sansa signaled a maid to grab a dragon glass blade. The maid gave it to the maester. The maester first gave it to Bran, he puts it against his bottom lip and slides it down, making it bleed.

He then cuts his hand before giving it to me to do the same. After I cut my lip and hand, he first rubs a mark on my forehead and then I do the same to him. This signifies the continuation of our bloodline. We both take each other’s bloody hand as the maester wrapped the wedding cloth around them.

Bran and I both pledge in Valyrian, “One flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever.” We repeated the vows in common tongue for everyone else to understand.

The maester announced us as husband and wife, “you may kiss the bride.”

Our lips crashed together as the crowd cheered for us and clapped. Bran then lifts me up and carries me the rest of the way to the Great Hall, for the feast.

“To our new Queen of the North!” Bran shouts, lifting his goblet. The Lords begin to shout, “Queen of the North!” I giggled in embarrassment as I drunk out of my cup. We were presented with so much food! We wanted to try every dish, but we were full by the time we reached the third.

“How does it feel to be queen now?” Arya asked me.

“It feels nice,” I smiled.

“I have a wedding gift for you,” Bran said. He signaled the servants to bring it out. It was a Targaryen themed saddle! “I remembered when we talked about saddles for the dragons so…I had two get made for us! This one is yours!”

“Thank you, Bran!” I kissed him on the cheek.

The musicians played a certain song that sounded familiar. It was the song that played when Bran and I danced at the harvest. Bran smirked at me and offered his hand, “Kostagon eman bisa lilagon, ñuha dāria? (May I have this dance, my queen)”

“Kessa,” I accepted, placing my hand in his. We both went to the dance floor and did the same moves we did before as kids. This time, it felt so much more magical than before.

(Imagine them dancing like this)

Everyone watched as we danced in silence until we were finished. They applauded us and then everyone joined us on the dance floor. We did it the same way before, copying our dance moves and switching partners after we finish.

We were all having a blast! The feast started to get more hectic. The music was barely heard, the men were drunk and touching their women, and it was getting hotter. It was about time for bed.

“Now it is time for the bedding!” Bran announced, “but I will gladly carry my own wife to our bedchambers!” He picked me up as I giggled, blushing.

“Don’t be too loud now!” Arya shouted, making the hall laugh.

“Shut up!” We both yelled as we left.

For the bedding, we were given a special room. It sort of reminded me of Bran’s room, just filled with rose petals and nicely scented candles.

As soon as Bran shut the door closed with his foot, we immediately started to kiss each other, moving our mouths in sync. His lips were perfectly plump and so smooth, I could kiss them all night.

We were both waiting for this moment, just the two of us, alone with no interruptions. Bran gently placed me down, and we both started to remove our clothes. He finished a lot faster than me, leaving on his breeches. I insisted that I could do it on my own, so he went to his side of the bed and waited.

I placed the cloak and my white fur coat onto a chair. I started to remove my dress, Bran watched me in admiration as I gracefully removed it, revealing my corset, short braies, and high socks I had under my dress. Before I could hop into the bed, I seductively took down my bun and unbraided my hair, shaking my hair back and forth letting it fall on my back again.

I crawled to him from the foot of the bed. We were both blushing extremely hard. I took a moment to stare at his body. He was slim, but also had a slightly toned build. He was beautiful.

We both have been waiting for this moment, but it still felt a little silly and strange. We both laughed and giggled as I had my body over his.

Bran sat up and placed his hands on my hips as I straddled him. I wrapped both of my arms around his neck. We looked into each other’s eyes and then started to kiss again. The longer we kissed, the more hungrier we grew. This time, Bran opened his mouth more for my tongue to enter. He moaned as I explored his mouth with my tongue, whispering my name. He tried to find the strings of the back of my corset, but it was hard for him to see. He was too overflown with pleasure, keeping his eyes closed.

He managed to untie it and gently takes it off of me, tossing it across the room. He innocently couldn’t stop staring at my chest. I stop kissing him and giggle. I start to feel something strange under me. I glanced down at his breeches, noticing a bulge. I blushed really hard, chuckling, “oh, I guess you like what you see…” He turned completely red, “hey, stop picking on me!” He whined, with a slight grin on his face. I showered his whole face with kisses, making him giggle, “as my King commands.”

I took his two hands and placed them on my breasts for him to feel them. He looked from his hands to my eyes, his were filled with such curiosity and admiration. We started to kiss again, as he massaged my chest. Our tongues were dancing with each other as we kissed. I started to slowly grind on him, making him moan louder. We stopped kissing, out of breath, and I looked down at his breeches. “Do it,” Bran commanded desperately. “Yes, my king,” I tease, giving his nose a kiss.

I start to undo his breeches as he silently watched me. I threw them across the room like he did with my corset. I bit my lip as I looked upon him, blushing. His whole body is beautiful. “I guess you like what you see too?” He asked, laughing. “Yes, I do..” I proudly admit to him. “Alright, my turn!” Bran playfully yelled, switching our positions suddenly. “Oh!” I exclaim snickering, surprised that he did that. Bran started to carefully remove my white high socks and threw them at the side of the bed. He started to eye my braies asking, “may I?” I nod, letting him do the honors. He pulled down my braies and threw it at the side of the bed too. Bran scanned my face and body, “wow.” “What?” I asked. “You’re beautiful, Tsireya. Please don’t ever forget that. Inside and outside,” he said. I blushed replying, “thank you Bran, so are you…”

He kissed me slowly and passionately as I closed my eyes. I bit down on his bottom lip, making him groan in excitement. He positioned himself at a better angle on top of me and he looked at me, asking for permission, he didn’t even need to ask, I gave him a little nod as I panted. He tried to enter inside me, but it wasn’t going in. This was our first time after all. “S-Sorry…” he told me, embarrassed. I place my hand on his cheek giggling, “it’s okay!” After he kept thrusting a little more, I moaned loudly as I felt Bran unexpectedly entered in. Honestly, I didn’t care if people could hear us anymore. I started to whimper as he moved up and down on me slowly. “D-Does it hurt?” He asked me, worried. “No, no, it doesn’t hurt it just feels different,” I said, “but I like it…keep going.”

Without saying a word, he nodded and continued on. He kissed me again, traveling from my mouth to my neck, making me gasp. He started to gain more speed, thrusting harder and harder. I wrapped my legs around his waist, screaming his name in pleasure, “Bran!” I was a little embarrassed that I screamed but I was too in the moment to care.

As we released ourselves, both of us moaned extremely loudly. Bran then sighed and dropped right next to me, “well, we just did that.” We were both out of breath. “Yeah,” I chuckled, “Arya is going to tease us a whole lot tomorrow…” we both laughed. I turn to Bran, laying my head on his chest. “I can’t believe it,” Bran said, playing with my hair. “Us, King and Queen of the North, I never would have thought I would become king. Now, I must be like Robb. I have to be brave, we both do. We must protect our people from the Night King and the dead. No matter what happens, we go through it together.” “Yeah, together.” I agreed, “when will Jon and Daenerys be here?” “They’ll be on their way soon, when they do come, we must tell Jon. Tell him about who he truly is.”

We both just laid in the bed in silence, not sleepy. “So, what now?” I ask him. “Hmm,” Bran thought out loud, “you wanna do it again?” I giggled, “I’m up for it if you are…” I threw my leg over both of his. “I am all yours, my king.” I whispered, running my finger down his chest. I slightly winced as I felt him inside me again but quickly pushed the feeling aside. He gripped my hips hard as I began to ride him, “gods, I love you so much,” he moaned submissively.

°。°。°。°。°。°。°。°。°。

When it was breakfast, we were already expecting Arya to say something. “How did you sleep?” Sansa asked Arya. “Well it could have been better,” she replied. She looked at us and then smirked, “I mean, practically the whole castle could hear those love birds. How is one supposed to sleep when all you hear is screaming?” We rolled our eyes at her, but we still turned red.

I won’t lie, after our bedding, we made love many days after. We just loved each other so much. Arya continued to playfully complain about our sounds of pleasure. “What can I say, I love to ride,” I said jokingly yet serious.

One night before we could remove our clothes, we heard a knock on the door. “Come in!” Bran said. A man entered the room, but he looked familiar. It was the man who helped us get beyond the wall! “Samwell Tarly,” Bran stated. “I thought you would have forgotten me,” Sam said, surprised Bran even remembered. “I remember everything now,” Bran replied.

Sam noticed me in the room, “o-oh, am I interrupting something?” “No,” I reassured him, “please come sit.”

He nodded, smiling, and closed the door behind him. “Thank you,” Bran said, “for getting us beyond the wall, you’re a good man.” “Gee, thank you, your grace, though I’m not really sure that I am,” he replied, “what happened to you, outside the wall?”

“I trained to become the three-eyed raven.” He told Sam.

“Oh! I…don’t know what that means…”

“It means I can see the past and sometimes glimpses of the future. I can see what happens now, well when I choose to.”

“What brings you to Winterfell?” I asked Sam.

“Is Jon here?” Sam asked. “I came to see him.”

“No, but he is on his way back with Daenerys Targaryen from Dragonstone.” Bran answered.

“Did you see that in a vision?” Sam asked.

Bran showed Sam a little letter that was sent by a raven.

Sam, feeling dumb, chuckled, “oh.”

“When he comes, we must tell him the truth,” Bran said.

“About what?”

“About himself…no one knows, no one but me and Tsireya.”

“He isn’t the son of Eddard Stark,” I told Sam, “he’s the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.”

“They held a secret ceremony to get married, in Dorne.” Bran said.

“Oh gods,” Sam exclaimed, “then that would mean he’s…”

“The rightful king of the 7 kingdoms…” Bran said, finishing Sam’s sentence.

A week later…

I’ve been starting to feel strange lately. I’ve been getting more cramps than usual, and my stomach has been making me feel queasy and nauseous. What’s going on? I didn’t let Bran know about anything, I just went to my maid about it.

“What does it mean?” I asked her. She began to cup my breasts, examining them. “What’s wrong?” I asked her. She looked up at me and replied, “your breasts, they are more swollen than usual. Does it hurt when I do this?” “It does feel a bit sore..” I answered. “When was the last time you bled, my queen?” She asked. My eyes widened, I’m pretty sure I was supposed to start bleeding by now. She took my hand and placed it on my flat belly, “my queen, you are with child, the gods have blessed you!”

I continued to sit there, thinking to myself, me, pregnant? When the Long Night is coming? I can’t believe it…he’ll never let me fight if I told him now. “Shall we inform the King?” She asked me. “No, it’s fine, I can tell him when the time feels right.”

┈┈┈┈﹤୨♡୧﹥ ┈┈┈┈

(a/n) Hey guys, sorry I’ve been slacking in posts but I started writing some chapters so they should be out soon! I hope you are enjoying the story! :)

Taglist: @icarusignite @rinisfruity14

[thelustybraavosimaid]

Who needs actual foreshadowing?! All you need are vibes!!!

Jon expressed a desire to repair Winterfell:

The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins. (Jon XII, ASoS)

Arya thinks of Winterfell and has memories of its people when asked about the smell of the candles when in the House of Black and White:

"[...] If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

Winterfell, she might have said. I smell snow and smoke and pine needles. I smell the stables. I smell Hodor laughing, and Jon and Robb battling in the yard, and Sansa singing about some stupid lady fair. I smell the crypts where the stone kings sit, I smell hot bread baking, I smell the godswood. I smell my wolf, I smell her fur, almost as if she were still beside me. "I don't smell anything," she said, to see what he would say.

"You lie," he said, "but you may keep your secrets if you wish, Arya of House Stark." (Arya II, AFfC)

Bran knows that Winterfell is not dead, like him:

Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all. The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either. (Bran VII, ACoK)

It's Bran who knows the castle like the back of his hand because he is a squirrel:

When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know. (Bran II, AGoT)

Let's stop pretending that the only one who is fit to rule the north because she built the castle out of snow. That's beautiful, sure, but all of the kids are attached to Winterfell. That's their ??? fucking home????

Also lmao she is not associated with the winter rose tale. That is told to Jon because it is a clue about his parentage. The Stark maiden + Bael the Bard is analogous to Rhaegar and Lyanna, and there isn't a single mention of blue roses in Sansa's chapters. The one who is only associated with blue roses is Lyanna, and she was even holding some as she lay dying. There has to be narrative purpose for this kind of thing, not loose associations simply because Sansa is a Stark daughter.

And I mean...Robb's will is not there without a reason. This is a major plot point. Robb likely disinherited her because he did not want the Lannisters taking control of Winterfell/the North. I mean this was talked about already:

"A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her." His mouth tightened. "To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north."

And Catelyn agreed.

"So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa...your own sister, trueborn..." (Catelyn V, ASoS)

Imagery is not enough, sorry.

[esther-dot]

When I first read abt Arya killing that poor singer I thought she did it to punish him because he deserted Jon. Do you think she followed her father's example? Sure she knows about the executions of deserters, but I thought the key to that was Jon. She has just learned news about him, that he is lord commande and they call him "black bastard of the Wall".

This is so old, I can't find what it was in response to, but I found the draft and thought I'd post it anyway, anon. Sorry about that!

I suppose to me it felt jarring because Ned had a duty as Warden to kill deserters, and yes, to the reader, we understand the problem in that he doesn’t take the stories of the Others seriously, that he should have sought to understand before passing judgment, and of course, I object to the institution of the Watch as a whole, but in-world, he was enacting justice and doing his duty. 

Arya has no such duty. She isn't tasked to carry out the king's justice, there is no honor demanding she act here. When I read her killing that singer, I thought she chose to kill when it wasn’t required of her in any sense. Not only was it not her duty, her life or the next person’s wasn’t in immediate danger, so I felt an implicit judgment in the writing that it was indicating something about Arya that should concern us.

I agree that we can read it in a sympathetic way because of her loyalty to Jon, but that’s where my thoughts regarding “well, if you kill one person for deserting your brother then where’s the justice in supporting your deserter brother?” enter the chat, and I have questions about what Martin was thinking because he writes Jon's feelings about this so compellingly:

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father. He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair. Jon would have to come to him in secret, disguised. He tried to imagine the look on Robb's face when he revealed himself. His brother would shake his head and smile, and he'd say … he'd say …

He could not see the smile. Hard as he tried, he could not see it. He found himself thinking of the deserter his father had beheaded the day they'd found the direwolves. "You said the words," Lord Eddard had told him. "You took a vow, before your brothers, before the old gods and the new." Desmond and Fat Tom had dragged the man to the stump. Bran's eyes had been wide as saucers, and Jon had to remind him to keep his pony in hand. He remembered the look on Father's face when Theon Greyjoy brought forth Ice, the spray of blood on the snow, the way Theon had kicked the head when it came rolling at his feet. He wondered what Lord Eddard might have done if the deserter had been his brother Benjen instead of that ragged stranger. Would it have been any different? It must, surely, surely … and Robb would welcome him, for a certainty. He had to, or else … It did not bear thinking about. Pain throbbed, deep in his fingers, as he clutched the reins. Jon put his heels into his horse and broke into a gallop, racing down the kingsroad, as if to outrun his doubts. Jon was not afraid of death, but he did not want to die like that, trussed and bound and beheaded like a common brigand. If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three. (AGOT, Jon IX)

Obviously, we weren't being guided to think Robb would or would be right to punish Jon. Later, Robb names Jon his heir to really bring that home. So, as much as we're primed to view Daeron with anger due to Sam's frustrations, I still don't think we're meant to be comfortable with Arya's actions.

I also think this fits in with a bigger issue of, you can't be a just ruler if you're favoring family and exempting them from the rules. Bran will be king, does he reform the Watch so deserting is no longer punishable by death? He can't be "just" if Jon is allowed to abandon it while others cannot. And, as much as justice is of the upmost concern, mercy is a consideration too. AGOT has the struggle between Ned's merciful nature and his duty to his king. We aren't meant to think he was right to capitulate when the demand for execution was wrong, but if the right thing for Ned to do was to defy his king, refuse to do his duty, how is it right for Arya to voluntarily kill a guy when she has none of those pressures? I agree that her love for Jon was a factor, but I don't think we’re meant to be ok with this.

[catofoldstones]

Its funny to me that the common thought I see repeated is that ‘sansa was disinherited!!! She cant ever get winterfell, plus the northern lords would never trust her bc she was married to a lannister!!’ As if George would just cosign that in his writing like yep sorry girls arent equipped to rule🤷🏻‍♀️ he continuously criticizes sexist ideologies thru out asoiaf

Sansa wasn’t disinherited, she was overridden in favour of Jon. And so were all of her living siblings btw, which will be all of them once they are found/come back home.

Plus, the content of Robb’s will is pure speculation. We genuinely don’t know what there is in Robb’s will. Maybe he has declared the eldest living son of Eddard Stark as the heir to winterfell and after all is said and done, that would be Bran Stark. Maybe Robb said that it will go to Jon Snow and Jon Snow only. Even then Sansa and her siblings will have a right to Winterfell by way of social custom, especially after the R+ L = J reveal. What if Jeyne Westerling is pregnant? Then what? The will goes to whack, stark siblings get pushed down in the line of succession and we finally put an end to this already tired and beaten debate. My boy Jon did not stand there and say Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa for shits and giggles, social customs and inheritance rights are important. Moreover, if Westerosi history shows us anything it’s that Sansa’s kids will still have a claim to winterfell even if she is expelled from the will.

On top of all of this, her marriage to Tyrion isn’t even going to last courtesy Mr. Lancel Lannister of the faith whose life she saved in a brave act of kindness. And that’s where it becomes funny to me too because what leg do they have to stand on now.

Though I doubt the fandom is saying girls can’t rule, they’re saying Sansa can’t rule. They can’t say girls can’t rule because then that punishes their faves Arya and Dany too. But all of that too is rooted in misogyny because to favour one type of woman win over another is deeply problematic (okays favouritism at best and excuses racism at worst). But yes, you’re right because George seems to be calling out this type of misogyny too. We have women leading Houses (the Mormonts), we have women leading (or having a very strong claim nonetheless and fighting for it) kingdoms (Asha and Arianne). Stannis asks for Shireen to be on the Iron Throne in case he dies fighting for it, so clearly women can be heirs and hold leadership positions in their own right.

In the end, yes the Westerosi culture can allow women leadership positions (though not easily and in very limited circumstances) and Sansa Stark is absolutely still an heir to Winterfell.

[blumenflowergelb]

Love and Soulmates (2/2)

• Yn Tyrell was a very beautiful man, Jon thought. The way his eyes shone when he caught blue butterflies and the way his curly blond hair had fallen over his face while trying to prep the butterflies to display, made Jon‘s heart warm. He wasn’t just beautiful. At times he wished to hide him in a box and never allow anybody to look at him, other times he wished to show Yn to the whole world so that they can understand how wonderful he was. Jon wasn’t stupid, he knew that most thought Yn a fool. And truth to be told it did not help that Yn was often found doing strange things. Jon will never forget the day after their wedding night Yn woke him up to search for ‘northern worms’. Jon did find this strange but still went with him and dawn had found them digging around the dirt of the Godswood. The few months of their early marriage left Jon with an impression that the Gods hated him for making him a bastard and giving him this soulmate. However overtime Jon got used to the weirdness of Yn and he even grown to love him. Now Yn‘s eccentric ways were the usual and Jon couldn’t believe that once he lived without Yn.

• They had an idyllic life, filled with adventures, love and most importantly family. Baby Rickon grew and was barely a baby anymore, Bran was climbing around as always, this time with Yn. Even Robb has grown to like Yn. It wasn’t a secret but in the beginning Robb tried to hide his dislike towards Yn as much as he could. Jon never had a feeling that Yn was bothered by it but never said anything until one day Robb and Yn got into a fight, which ended with both of them falling in the ice cold waters around Winterfell. At the time he was playing with the girls and only heard about what had happened when Luwin asked him to go to the infirmary. Jon went but he was never told what went down between Robb and Yn, only that they had made peace. To the surprise of everybody Sansa has taken Yn as well as ducks to water. It was probably because Yn liked sewing, he was very good at it, and when Lady Catelyn was not looking, he joined Sansa and Arya in the sewing circle. What nobody surprised was how much Arya loved Yn. If Yn wasn’t at Jons‘ side than he was on Arya‘s, making trouble. Even if they were bothersome and outright annoying at times, Jon couldn’t be more happier. He got a fuzzy warm feeling in his chest just thinking about Yn and the way Yn looked, made the warmth light up and burn through him. His laugh, just the way he talked made his heart burn throughout his whole body and Jon felt home at Yns‘ side. His soulmark was a reflection of his inner happiness. His compass, filled with Tyrell roses, became more meticulous. New animals appeared, for example a snail whom Yn called Joe, and even other flowers like the Flower of Ladies. It was beautiful.

• Of course, nothing goes as planned in life. Jon Arryn died of old age. He passed away silently in his room at the Red Keep, and the King wanted Jon‘s father as the new Hand. This led to Jon‘s family being separated, and now sitting at the Red Keep, looking out on the courtyard Jon felt his heart ache. He has sworn to never forget the sight of Bran and Arya winking at them, the way Lady Catelyn was ready to let her tears fall and the sad look on Robb‘s face as he held a crying Rickon. Sansa tried to look like a lady who knows her duty but Jon knew her too well. Even Yn was not capable of making her as happy as she was before. When Jon told this his father, Ned just nodded and told him that everybody has to do their duty but he will talk to Sansa.

• After the gruelling months of leaving Winterfell for the Red Keep they arrived and both Jon and Yn were sent to their room. Their room. A fact that Jon was avoiding as much as he could. They never truly shared one room, expect sometimes like when Yn was in so much ecstasy about the fuzzy cows of the North that he had fallen asleep in Jon‘s room. The only night they shared a bed intentionally was on their wedding night, but they only slept. Jon wasn’t even sure if Yn knew and understood what was supposed to happen if they shared a bed. Usually people knew about such things but Yn was not usual. Regardless Jon wasn’t interested telling Yn what was expected of them, he just layed next to Yn and tried to sleep. And now they had to share a bed again. The only difference was their age, and Jon knew that Yn was interested on certain matters. The looks of Yn did not evade him, but he was too embarrassed to talk about it. So he just went in the room, which was bigger than Jon has ever expected a room being, and sat down on one of the chairs before a window looking out on the courtyard. Yn stood there for a second but hesitantly sat down. They didn’t speak until Yn sighted and begann to talk about the future. They were to remain in the Red Keep for a moon‘s turn and then go to Highgarden for a year. After that year they could decide to either stay or go to Winterfell. There were talks of Jon getting a holdfast but nothing was certain yet. As far as Jon knew, the Lady of Highgarden already wrote Yn asking him to stay for a few years and than decide whether they are going North or not. As of now they are only going to stay for a year.

• The days in the Red Keep were very boring. Because of Jons‘ status as a bastard he couldn’t just go everywhere he wanted, especially because the Queen looked like he was the Stranger come again whenever she saw him. As Yn didn’t care to go anywhere without Jon they mostly stayed inside. On some occasions they went out of their room, like supper with Ned and Sansa but they spent every minute together. If Jon could be honest he enjoyed Yn‘s presence. He had always to say something about the strangest things that existed and whenever Jon wished for silence he stayed silent. The only time Yn‘s eyes were not on him was when Loras arrived. He was a very beautiful young man but quit arrogant too. Still Jon liked him and looked forward to seeing him again. However after staying in their rooms for half a moon turn Yn turned restless and he spoke so often about going to the city that Jon yielded. They went and Jon hated it. The smell, the people, the sights and smells were strange to him. The people were rude and truly he felt so small and unimportant. Yn tried to take him to several different places but Jon couldn’t befriend this new world. After Yn told him that he would like it overtime Jon looked very sceptical and Yn kissed him. They were behind a tavern in a little alley where only the drunken or the whores went. Yn kissed Jon like there was no tomorrow and by the time they were done Jon‘s lips were all bruised. He felt lightheaded, his blood was boiling for something more. It didn’t help that they went by a street full of scantily dressed people, and by the time they were in their room Jon was ready for anything. To his delight they did end up doing more kissing but Yn clearly did not want anything more. That night Jon slept deeper than ever.

• They repeated their outings to the city several times, but only nights. By the time dawn arrived they were in their room acting like nothing happened. Ned hasn’t remarked anything about their tired faces, only slightly nodded at Jon after their fourth night. As little Jon‘s father spoke, as much did Loras talk. He was making jokes all the time and if it didn’t include Jon too he would have found it funny. But it was more annoying than ever, particularly after Loras found a slight bruise behind Yn‘s ears. At this found his cheekiness reached a new point. Yn was clearly bothered by it, which lead him to leave his room when Loras was coming. But as always Jon had to come too. Usually they were either in the Godswood with Sansa, who took a liking to sewing with Yn under the shadows of the large brown oak tree, or they were in the library. Jon would read books about History and Yn always took books about plants and animals of the known world. Yn always took a great care of not being seen by the servants or by the people and it made Jon‘s heart warm every time. Than one day Yn wanted to go to the highest point of the Tower of the Hand. While reading he had found a species of spiders that lived very high and made webs looking like gemstones. Jon found this particular and was dubious of finding a spider like what Yn mentioned but he still went up for Yn. They deliberately choose a day where Ned would be in the tower, busy with his counsel. The walk up the stairs was long and Jon was growing to be more unsure the higher they went. Yn tried to calm him by saying they they will climb out of a window but it won’t be harder than the ones in Winterfell. When Jon asked how he knew where this window was Yn just smirked. Before Jon could repeat his question they arrived at the end of the staircase. Yn was already walking to the end of the corridor and as he was about to tell Jon something they heard the voices. Jon had to make sure he heard correctly but by the way Yn stood there he knew he has heard something. It came from behind a door, in truth it was more of a panel in the wall, that Jon couldn’t see before standing in the hallway. The voices were not speaking. They were moaning and grunting.

• Before Jon could do anything Yn was already opening the door. In that second a lot of things happened. For one a woman shrieked, than a a thud was heard and Yn looked like somebody slapped him. He took a step back and shoved Jon just out of the way as a sword descended on Yn. The next moment Jon heard a sick crunch and Yn crying out. He could smell the blood but before he could do anything Yn was already pulling him down the corridor onto the stair. He didn’t understand what was going on only that Yn was shouting for the guards and that they almost flew down the stairs. Then Yn simply collapsed while taking a step, just in time to fall on a Stark guard. He heard the guards asking what was going on but he couldn’t care less. As he crouched down to see Yn he went pale. Blood was seeping out of him in small rivers, Yn tried to say something but only the words Queen and Kingslayer were understandable. Jon‘s compass was burning and burning and his head was hurting too, and as a guard touched his shoulders he shouted at him to go up and take them. He wasn’t sure who they were but he was sure that somebody pulled a sword on Yn. The next hours went by in a haze. Jon couldn’t remember to save himself how they arrived at the maesters room, he couldn’t remember if the guard caught the perpetrators or not. But he could remember the way Yn looked and the way his blood smelt like.

• Ned Stark was sitting in one of the counsels talking about new laws to generate more money for the crown and pay of the dept when a boy came inside and told Ned that his son was with the maester because Yn Tyrell was attacked. Ned was out of the room and was running to the maester‘s chamber while asking the messenger what had happened. At hearing that Yn was attacked and was dying he let out curses but at hearing that the Queen and his brother were being held by his own guards he cursed freely. Upon arrival at Pycelle‘s chamber he saw Jon, bloodied. He went in his knees before Jon and cradled his head in his hands. He couldn’t care less that Jon was already a man, his son was looking like he bathed in blood. Two streams of tears were going down his cheeks and Ned couldn’t help himself but hug him. While trying to soothe Jon Ned looked to Jory who was standing before the door with his sword unsheathed. He looked grimm and Ned could see some splatters of blood on his hands. Before he could ask Jory what has happened, Jon begann to talk about spiders and the highest point of the tower, the voices and the sword gleaming before Yn. At this point he was crying again and he tried to hide his face between Ned‘s shoulder. Ned could hear the rest of the counsel yelling and talking and than Renly Baratheon was standing behind Ned. He has already sent for the King and for Loras Tyrell.

• It was already the Hour of the Wolf when Pycelle came out of the chamber. He signed Jon to go inside while he himself stayed out to talk with Yn‘s brother. Jon heard the door close but he only had a sight for Yn. He knew that Yn was alive but not the state he was in. And it wasn’t good. He looked ashen, his curls were matted with blood and his whole upper body was wrapped in linen. He looked awful. Jon just simply brought a chair and sat down next to Yn‘s bed. He didn’t hear anybody come in until Loras touched his shoulder. He didn’t say anything and just stared at his brother. After some time he left. At one point Jon has fallen asleep because the next time he opened his eyes it was already dawn. His father was sitting next to him, a new scar on his cheeks. Jon looked at him but before he could ask Ned told him that they found the Queen and the Kingslayer participating in an intimate relationships. Probably that was the reason why Jaime Lannister cut Yn down. The Queen and his brother were under arrest and their children were held in their rooms. The King was raging and Ned was trying to grasp the situation before it escalated. It was a big mess, and Sansa was in the middle of it. By the time Ned arrived to put the Lannister bastards under house arrest, Joffrey was already threatening to cut Sansa‘s throat. Robert was needed, who then barged in Joffrey‘s chamber and beat him up. For now Sansa was staying with the guards in the Hand‘s room but she will go back to Winterfell via ship with Arya. Letter were sent across Westeros to meet at a Great Council deciding the punishment on House Lannister and the heir of Robert Baratheon.

• Yn woke up seven nights after the attack. While he was delirious, he could understand and talk enough to tell who was in the room. A month after Yn‘s wakening the Queen and his brother were executed. Joffrey Waters was sent to serve on the Walls and his brother Tommen was to follow him after he was of age. Myrcella was sent to exile on Essos. The sister of Yn was to marry the King in a small wedding but because of the Tyrells the wedding was grander than ever. They were seventyseven courses and seventyseven option of drinks. Seven singers and seven groups of seven dancers entertained the wedding guest and Margaery was bedded the same night. Jon would have enjoyed the wedding more if Yn was in a better shape but duo to blood loss he was pale and looked very weak. The good thing was that he regained his ability to walk. Maester Pycelle was skeptical about his recovery but Yn became better and better. However against his mother wished Yn decided to go back to the North with Jon. They were to leave two days after the wedding alongside with Robb and Lady Catelyn and the guards that accompanied them from Winterfell to the wedding.

• The day they left was on one side sad on the other side happy. Jon was to see his sisters and brothers and than in two years time he would even get his own stronghold in the north. Yn was healed enough to make the journey and Robb has invited both of them to see the league lords of the North. But Jon would probably not see his father for years as he was permanently the Hand of the King. Once he was old enough he would leave his post but everything could happen. And Jons‘ stronghold was very close to the Wall, which meant that he would not see Winterfell for a long time. But at least he had Yn.

[lawonderlandwriter]

You know I wonder how many people would agree with me that GRRM will finish the books or at least tell us the ending. And how many more people would agree with me that he has a very good ending planned for the key five (Dany, Jon, Arya who are my three favorites, Tyrion, and Bran). I do remember reading that he still plans to stick close to the ending from his original outline which involved those five characters all surviving the entire series! That gives me a lot of hope for them and especially Dany. I’m unsure though if Dany will end as Queen. As long as she and Jon and Arya are all alive and can finally live peaceful lives the ending will be perfect to me. But Dany has had this complex arc about learning how to be a ruler. GRRM even said he thinks she is someone who would be suited to rule. I just can’t see it not going anywhere.

I think we will at least get TWOW in GRRM's lifetime. But I'm not sure we would get ADOS, at least not entirely penned by him. I'm sure he'd leave behind copious notes for another author (NOT BRANDON SANDERSON - I hate when people suggest that lol) to finish the series. - Not that I don't like Sanderson's writing style but it's not ASOIAF.

But yes, I do think the ending George has planned for the key five will be relatively kind to them all. I say "kind" rather than "happy" or "bittersweet" because I think that's exactly what it's going to be. I know these characters are going to go through a fuck ton before their respective endings and that's definitely going to affect them and traumatize them for life. But at the same time, I think once they get through those things, he will let the live kind, gentle lives.

For Dany, I think part of that is realizing she doesn't want to rule. To me, every time I read her chapters, it feels like all she wants is to go home and find family. And unfortunately, other people have told her she has to be a Queen and has to take back this throne that she's never wanted in order to be able to go home. And also unfortunately, she's actually really good at it. Dany is the stereotypical reluctant ruler. It's not what she wants, but she has all the necessary skills in order to do it well.

So my hope for her is that she will do it well, she will save Westeros, she will rule for a few years, and then she will pass the torch to someone else, because she just wants to be with her husband and her kids and live a quiet life. I can absolutely see that for her. And I hope that for her. Because all Dany has ever wanted is the house with the red door and the lemon tree outside her window. That is Dany's Dream of Spring.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Many fans dismiss Catelyn's lashing out to Jon as an one time thing. It's true that Catelyn told Jon she wanted him to be basically dead only once, after all she barely even talked to him in the past. However, to claim that Catelyn's mistreatment of Jon is an one time thing is overlooking the text which indicates otherwise.

First of all, to get it out of the way, let me say that I don't expect Catelyn to act like a mother to a child it isn't her own. None of Jon's fans ( at least as far as I'm aware of) expect her to or thinks she's obligated to. However, treating a child with basic decency isn't the same with "mothering" them. She's the adult and the Lady of the house and she's the one in position of power comparing to the bastard kid. Mistreating a blameless child is why Jon's fans rightfully call her out for.

When Jon is about to visit Bran to say goodbye, he feels afraid because he knows that Lady Stark will also be there:

He reached the landing and stood for a long moment, afraid. Ghost nuzzled at his hand. He took courage from that. He straightened, and entered the room. Lady Stark was there beside his bed. She had been there, day and night, for close on a fortnight. Not for a moment had she left Bran's side. She had her meals brought to her there, and chamber pots as well, and a small hard bed to sleep on, though it was said she had scarcely slept at all. She fed him herself, the honey and water and herb mixture that sustained life. Not once did she leave the room. So Jon had stayed away.

Bran has been in coma for almost two weeks and this is the first time Jon visits him. It's not because Jon doesn't care for his little brother - Bran alongside Robb and Arya are the three people he's closest to in Winterfell-. It's because of Catelyn also being there. Her presence is terrifying enough to him to prevent him from visiting his beloved brother sooner. And if someone dismiss his fears as irrational, let me remind you that when he did visit Catelyn told him she wished he was in Bran's place. I'd say his fear of her is justified.

Even when he finally enters the room, he continues to hesitate to aproach his brother as he's too afraid of her.

He stood in the door for a moment, afraid to speak, afraid to come closer. The window was open. Below, a wolf howled. Ghost heard and lifted his head.

Jon's personality during his Winterfell years was being in the shadows, silent as a ghost. I wonder how much Lady Stark influenced it. Because he certainly didn't want to draw attention to him when she was around. And as the Lady of the house she was, naturally, always around.

Lady Stark looked over. For a moment she did not seem to recognize him. Finally she blinked. "What are you doing here?" she asked in a voice strangely flat and emotionless.

"I came to see Bran," Jon said. "To say good-bye."

Her face did not change. Her long auburn hair was dull and tangled. She looked as though she had aged twenty years. "You've said it. Now go away."

Here we have a fine indication how Catelyn tries to interfere with Jon's relationship with her kids, aka his siblings. Jon and Bran are brothers who share a loving bond and Catelyn, who is Bran's mother, definitely knows it (after all, she knows all her kids very well). But here she prioritizes her feelings over everything else. It's more important her wants Jon to go away, than what Bran would have wanted. And Bran would have wanted his brother to stay.

Part of him wanted only to flee, but he knew that if he did he might never see Bran again. He took a nervous step into the room. "Please," he said.

Jon really wants to share a proper goodbye with his little brother. That's the only thing that stops him from running away. Away from the person who terrifies him the most.

As you can see he's still being very polite to her, unlike how she's towards him:

Something cold moved in her eyes. "I told you to leave," she said. "We don't want you here."

Another incident of her trying to monitor Jon's relationship with his siblings. She uses plural "we" when she's the only one who doesn't want Jon there. If Bran was awake, he would disagree with his mother.

Once that would have sent him running. Once that might even have made him cry. Now it only made him angry. He would be a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch soon, and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark. "He's my brother," he said.

If you want another proof that this isn't an one time thing, there you go. The above passage indicates that this isn't the first time Catelyn has been dismissive of him. In the past her mistreatment of him has sent him running and made him cry as he admits on his inner thoughts. Also, so far in his life, his father's wife is the worst danger he has faced.

"Shall I call the guards?"

Catelyn is threatening him to call the guards. She wants to call the guards to stop him from saying goodbye to his brother. As the Lady of House Stark, she has the authority to do so, and once again she doesn't mind to use it to mistreat a teenage boy.

"Bran," he said, "I'm sorry I didn't come before. I was afraid." He could feel the tears rolling down his cheeks. Jon no longer cared. "Don't die, Bran. Please. We're all waiting for you to wake up. Me and Robb and the girls, everyone …"

Poor boy feels guilty he didn't come to visit his beloved brother before. And of course, he admits he didn't because he was afraid. It's obvious who he was afraid of.

Jon did not know what to say. "It wasn't your fault," he managed after an awkward silence.

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. "I need none of your absolution, bastard."

Here we have the teenager trying to comfort the subject of his fear. And how the adult of the situation reacts? She unkindly calls him bastard and tells him she doesn't need his absolution.

He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

"Yes?" he said.

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

I know we often focus on Catelyn's emotional abusive words wish Jon suffered the same fate with Bran. And rightfully so,because what she said was really uncalled for. However, I want to also focus on the sentance before it. Catelyn Stark has lived on the same house with Jon for 14 years and yet this is the first time she's calling him by his name. Which means that she's either not acknowledging his presence when he's around or that she's calling him dismissive names like "bastard" like she did a couple of minutes before. Either way, she's being emotionally abusive to a child whose worse offense was being born out of wedlock.

[ladystoneboobs]

He[Ned] had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell. -Bran I, aGoT Bran's bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. "Keep the pony well in hand," he whispered. "And don't look away. Father will know if you do." -Bran I, aGoT Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who'd brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. -Theon I, aCoK The Lannister lord was strong-looking for an old man, with stiff golden whiskers and a bald head. There was something in his face that reminded Arya of her own father, even though they looked nothing alike. He has a lord's face, that's all, she told herself. She remembered hearing her lady mother tell Father to put on his lord's face and go deal with some matter. Father had laughed at that. She could not imagine Lord Tywin ever laughing at anything. -Arya VII, aCoK Theon told himself he must be as cold and deliberate as Lord Eddard. -Theon IV, aCoK [...] "My father never used a headsman. He said he owed it to men he killed to look into their eyes and hear their last words. And when I looked into Ygritte's eyes, I . . ." Jon stared down at his hands helplessly. "I know she was an enemy, but there was no evil in her." -Jon VII, aCoK As he knelt to the block, the kennelmaster said, "M'lord Eddard always did his own killings." Theon had to take the axe himself or look a weakling. -Theon V, aCoK He is an old man, Jon told himself. Fifty, maybe even sixty. He lived a longer life than most. The Thenns will kill him anyway, nothing I can say or do will save him. Longclaw seemed heavier than lead in his hand, too heavy to lift. The man kept staring at him, with eyes as big and black as wells. I will fall into those eyes and drown. The Magnar was looking at him too, and he could almost taste the mistrust. The man is dead. What matter if it is my hand that slays him? One cut would do it, quick and clean. Longclaw was forged of Valyrian steel. Like Ice. Jon remembered another killing; the deserter on his knees, his head rolling, the brightness of blood on snow . . . his father's sword, his father's words, his father's face . . . -Jon V, aSoS "My blood price, he[Tormund] called it," said Jon Snow, "but he will pay." "Aye, and why not?" Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. "Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it." "None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?" Ask Janos Slynt. "Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark." -Jon XI, aDwD

aw, gotta love that dichotomy of even ned's own adoring children, not just theon, knowing he had a cold and stern side as a lord, grim and frightening to enemies, always alongside the warm, laughing dad who told them bedtime stories, that nice side of ned which is the only part most of fandom wants to acknowledge. arya even reminded of him by the face of tywin frickin' lannister! this same dad who laughed off bran's disobedience climbing all over the castle like a monkey, who couldn't punish arya for using a secret sword behind his back, who didn't even want sansa to be a witness to his passing sentence on gregor clegane with mere words for his crimes, that same soft-hearted guy would have admonished 7yo bran for looking away from his first beheading, to toughen him up and make him into a man already. just imagine, for jon to be so certain of that, either he and/or robb must have looked away from their first beheading at bran's age and been sternly told off for it. (amab) children can't be allowed to have a natural human reaction to sudden blood and gore watching dad kill someone. gotta stamp that shit out right away!

striking the way jon always uses memories of ned to choose not to kill innocent people who had yet to do him harm, first with ygritte and then the old man ygritte urged him to kill, but also uses his noble father's example to prove his willingness to kill children with zero sense of contradiction. that has to be a reference to theon, right? ned's own experience (implicitly) threatening a child ward/hostage, which all his bannermen would be well aware of. sure, jon's right about the unnamed older man. ned wouldn't murder one of his own subjects like that, he owed no duty to the magnar of thenn and would likely find undercover work even more distasteful than jon did. but, ygritte, really? a wildling of the enemy people all northerners were taught to kill? i have to wonder. did ned really find more evil in the deserter's eyes than jon did in ygritte's, making him deserving of beheading? or is it just that ned could feel he deserved to dutifully kill every time he passed that eye contact test? his reasoning was that deserters were dangerous because they already had a death sentence for oathbreaking, therefore had no reason not to commit any other crime. doesn't that same self-fulfilling violent prophecy apply to all people born on the wrong side of the wall? when you've got nothing left in life, you have nothing to lose by attacking people on the other side. is theon being "cold and deliberate" at winterfell, even killing a man with his own hand for someone else's crimes, is that really so unlike a true son of eddard stark? how different is it from what ned could have done to theon himself to punish him for his father's crimes? (surviving) child-ward-hostages always "none the worse for it" indeed.

(also interesting how jon thinks of janos slynt when asked if he could behead a wildling child. janos slynt who had sinned against jon and ned, wanting jon dead since the day they met, exactly the same as anyone to be beheaded, no matter how young or innocent. can't question jon's willingness to behead anyone else once he's executed one awful guy. it's even funnier when we the readers know janos slynt's worst sin is baby-killing as part of his old job. killing royal bastard kids like jon, no less. jon gets to (unknowingly) kill a baby-killer and threaten children in the same book, using the baby-killer's death as precedent for killing someone else's children. guess that's all part of killing the boy to let the man be born, gotta be willing to kill any man or boy. neither prince theon nor lord commander snow could afford to look a weakling to their own men or enemies. uncle maester aemon helped finish all the work ned started turning jon into a hard, strong man.)

[atopvisenyashill]

Re your Bran ask. The amount of Key Five stans that think GRRM's intention is to make those five the Heroes of the Series and it's gonna be some found family-esque MCU dramedy where they all come together to defeat the others and then go on to plan Jon and Dany's wedding before having some double coronation among the cheering masses and everyone in Westeros falls at the feet of the Targ Regime is honestly fucking hilarious and baffling. This goes hand in hand with the Dany-Jon-Tyrion three heads of the dragon nonsense lmao.

They constantly praise GRRM for subverting tropes, but think he's going to play the Azor Ahai prophecy straight and think Dany and Jon will be unironic messianic figures/heroes. But for the other bitches and houses (especially Sansa or Aegon or Jaime, etc. who they hate) it's gonna be grimdark doom and gloom. Uhhh, yeah sure. Honestly these people should be happy these books never getting published because the meltdowns would be insane.

Imagine thinking GRRM isn't going to make these characters come into conflict with one another. It's not even about being an anti of any of these characters, it's about knowing basic storytelling narratives and what we've seen in the past five books, if you think there won't be angst, conflict, betrayals, etc. I genuinely don't know what to say.

the way this ask just got LOST in my inbox oh my god. anon if you're still around i'm so sorry lmao i do not know what happened.

but YES, i think i've used the word "naive" before as in, I think people are really banking on the sweet and not the bitter part of "bittersweet ending." I've seen people say that the later books are likely to be more "typical" or "straightforward" fantasy and it's like...why on earth would you think that? Everything he has said is pointing to continuing to do his shocking but well foreshadowed twists and turns and continuing to subvert tropes and expectations.

And yes, there's definitely like certain characters that the Key Five/Targ restoration/DJT Three Heads people will put all the "bitter" onand it's always so baffling and a lil telling that they just don't have the imagination to see a happier ending for Sansa, Bran, Brienne, Arianne, or Theon. I certainly have a tendency to dwell on the more "sweet" side of things for characters like Sansa, Arya, Brienne but a lot of that is because I'm just unsure of what the "bitter" aspect will be whereas I'm much more confident about the "bitter" aspect of characters like Dany, Bran, or Jon but I am fully confident that even with Sansa, Arya, and Brienne having some sort of power at the end, there will be a twinge of bitterness - I tend to go with "separated from their brothers" because that hits me right in heart but I'm sure George is gonna pull off something to make me insane and I will like it!! They will all have aspects of this one way or the other, not just a few characters! Sansa is not getting her head chopped off (WHY would this even happen. "Oh she committed treason" shut the hell your mouth she's not getting executed for Joffrey's death and she's not getting executed for *checks notes* giving a vague answer after she's pulled out of bed hungover and stressed out and asked to contradict the fucking crown prince can we be serious) because that's just objectively all bitter. Or that Aegon's death will be like, fine, no consequences, good even because he's just a pretender and nevermind that like, if the Blackfyre thing is true the kid's just been gaslit his entire life so how is any of this his fault?? It's why I waffle a lot on Dany's ending - I do think there will be something sweet for her there, if only for a moment, before her crown is taken from her but because that's so tied to politics, I'm a bit shaky on what it's going to be simply because the magical aspects make more sense to me.

I read fantasy not political thrillers or even a lot of historical fiction and I know I've bitched about all the "bran is annoying i hate magic" takes but at the same time that I find it annoying when the political fans will undersell the magic aspect or refuse to factor it into their theories, it's just as annoying when people insist that "the real enemy is the Others, politics is a distraction" it's not though! The political and the magical are intertwined and both of these aspects of the story will be subverted and played with in the end, it's not going to be a straightforward ending where Jon and Dany are both Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised and this is indisputably a good thing and then they rule the seven kingdoms and it's all perfect. That is just not happening! We have it repeated over and over that magic and prophecy is tricky at best and untrustworthy at worst and Dany is spending all her time neck deep in prophecies and blood magic and yet this is somehow not going to have any affect on her psyche whatsoever and never mind that prophecy is what drove half her relatives crazy AND is actively driving Cersei, Stannis, and Melisandre insane. Arya has spent two full books in BRAAVOS of all places and yeah I DO in fact think that Arya living in the Free City known for rebelling against the Valyrians, serving the assassins guild that is heavily implied to have helped kick off the Doom of Valyria because of their hatred for slavery is in fact going to be relevant when she comes face to face with a Valyrian claimant who used blood magic and killed a slave in order to hatch her dragons.

Also cannot reiterate enough that George himself was deeply annoyed about the original outline getting leaked because his story has diverged massively from there and this "key five" thing is NOT APPLICABLE TO THIS STORY. It's no longer the story he's writing folks!!!

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

not sure how much merit this has but lady stoneheart dying to protect arya would be inline with her characteristics

Hello @ifordawn !

It definitely would! I also think it would be rather poetic. Catelyn in life didn't consider Arya good enough in her eyes (which is really something considering Catelyn was still playing around outside in the dirt at the age of 12). Catelyn in life thought all of her children were dead or completely lost to her (Sansa being a Lannister now). Catelyn in life felt guilty for not being there for her children when they supposedly died. Catelyn in life watching her "last" child dying before her eyes and her being helpless to stop it. So with her now being undead I think it's much more interesting if she is still Catelyn but a Catelyn who is obsessed with vengeance and who no longer distinguishes between black and white when it comes to who she regards as her enemies. I think it would be a lot more interesting and heartbreaking if LSH isn't a complete monster that Arya has to put down.

Like I said on other posts, I think it would be really unnecessarily cruel and pointless to have Arya playing a part in Catelyn's resurrection only for Arya to have to kill her, even if Catelyn asks. For one, I don't believe Arya could do this, and for two, I think her doing this would destroy her and Arya would no longer be Arya anymore. And considering this isn't a grimdark series and Arya is a key player, I highly doubt GRRM would do this. He explores darkness, yes, and realism, but I don't think he'd destroy one of his favorite characters like this. Honestly I think Arya killing Catelyn is beyond OOC, but it's such a popular theory that so many people in fandom consider it to be fact without actually evaluating if this is something Arya is even capable of doing, and what it would actually mean to Arya as a character if she actually was able to do this.

This theory of course isn't impossible, Arya does have themes of mercy and mercy killing, but that doesn't automatically mean she's going to kill her mother because suffice it to say even if LSH is a one note monster, it will still be Catelyn's face she'll be looking into if she kills her. There also seems to be this like consensus that LSH must be killed because she's undead and looks undead, but if that's the case, then what's the consensus for Jon? He's going to look dead as well when he's resurrected. The side of his neck was actually slit, and from how it was described I think his artery was nicked. And Jon will probably come back changed as well, darker, and more feral. So does this mean someone needs to kill Jon as well?

No, I think it's much more interesting and satisfying if Arya reunites with Catelyn when she returns to Westeros, and while Catelyn is indeed a lot darker, Arya still glimpses her mother enough to still consider LSH her mother. I think it would be interesting if Catelyn finally makes Arya feel more accepted by her mother if Catelyn does declare Arya to be QitN with Robb's crown and learning that Catelyn has been searching for her. I think it would be interesting to see Catelyn learn that Rickon is alive, and later Bran, and realizes she didn't completely fail. I think it would be much more interesting to see Catelyn sacrifice herself for Arya. Catelyn failed to save Robb, but this time Catelyn succeeds to save Arya, the child she was the most hard on.

Imagine what it would be like for Arya to finally feel accepted and loved by her mother, even while noticing that her mother is a lot darker and harsher than you remember. Imagine Arya seeing Catelyn doing things she doesn't necessarily agree with and grappling if she should do something, but can never make herself to anything because she still sees her mother in there. Like Arya can still have this story arc with her mother while going through the "heart in conflict" and never going through with it. Honestly this to me is a lot more interesting than Arya just killing LSH in a mercy killing. Not only would it complete Catelyn's arc in a poetic way, but it would mean a lot of development for Arya as well. Not only could she fully witness the harsh realities of vengeance further than ever before, something that is a good lesson when it comes to leading and striding towards justice, but I think it could help Arya's insecurity and self-acceptance, if she is chosen by her mother to be QitN, even if it's something Arya isn't too thrilled with.

I have nothing against anyone believing in this theory that Arya will give LSH mercy, but I do think people need to question what Arya killing Catelyn could serve to her story when it comes to this theory. What would she have gained? Learned? Because suffice it to say, that nothing decent or good would come out of it IMO. I think it would only be a way for GRRM to not only stall her growth but to give her an unsatisfying ending as well. When I've contemplated the show ending, I've asked myself what exactly could cause Arya to just leave her family and society at the end of the story (which I don't believe will happen at all because the show made no sense at all) and the first thing I thought of that could begin that derailment of character is her having to kill her own mother, followed by the further trauma she'll face in the War for the Dawn where she will more than likely lose more people. I definitely could be wrong, but like I said, I think killing her mother would destroy Arya.

Now I do have one plausible theory in which Arya might have to kill LSH, and that's only if LSH is so awful that she becomes unrecognizable to Arya over time after reuniting. She's still somewhat her mother, but in most ways she's a stranger. So I actually have a thought out scenario for how this might happen and it goes like this: Rickon is found and made KitN in TWOW with Jon as his regent, but then Rickon dies, Jon becomes KitN, and this gets back to LSH who wrongly thinks Jon killed Rickon. She then declares Arya QitN, and then declares as Arya's regent that they are going to kill Jon and nothing Arya can say or do can change that, except for Arya killing LSH to protect someone she loves. Honestly this or something similar is the only way I could see Arya killing LSH and not being mentally destroyed at the end of it all, but even if this happened or something similar does it will have big negative effects on her, and honestly, while TWOW is supposed to be the darkest book, I still think it's going to have a lot of good character growth in it, and I still can't see why GRRM would have Arya kill her own mother after playing a part in her resurrection. Like I see nothing that can really be learned here because while Arya may have played a role by finding the body, it's not like Arya was the one to resurrect her and needs a lesson about how resurrecting people is bad. Maybe I'm just missing some crucial lesson Arya can learn with this? Or how this could contribute to her character arc in a non self-destructive way? I don't know.

So yeah, I just think it's a lot more interesting and satisfying on both their ends if Arya doesn't kill LSH and LSH sacrifices her life for Arya specifically.

Not to mention, I once read GRRM saying that LSH is going to be a really important character going forward which makes me think she's lasting beyond TWOW. And it's one of the main reasons I started speculating and really thinking of this theory in depth in the first place, especially considering my own theories that Arya will be back in the Riverlands 50-65% through her TWOW arc. But my own theories combined with that quote, making me rethink this theory, made me actually question what that theory could do to Arya emotionally and on a character level within the narrative and made me realize how bad this could be for Arya if this theory is indeed true. :(