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estrellami-1 · 9 months

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If I Should Stay

Part 1 | . . . | Part 14 | Part 15 | Part 16

Steve gets home and enters into chaos.

The older teens are nowhere to be found—Steve hopes they’re still in the shed—but the boys are arguing, pointing first at sheets on the table, then each other.

“No, you dumbass-”

“Oh, I’m the dumbass? I’m the one who forgot oxygen?”

Steve sighs. “Always the damn babysitter,” he mumbles to himself, fighting a smile. “Alright, cut it out!” He says, loud enough to be heard over the arguing. Immediately, everyone turns to him. He crosses his arms and nods at them. “What’s going on?”

Immediately they’re all talking over each other, doing their best to give Steve a headache. He sighs and raises a hand, and slowly they all peter off. “One at a time. Lucas?”

Lucas sighs. “We’re still trying to figure out the best way to weaponize fire down there.”

“And you’re disagreeing on something?”

“Yeah, we all think it would be best to do it different ways.”

Steve nods. “Write down a list of all the pros and cons you can think of. Pass the lists around in case you’ve forgotten something. When they’ve all been passed around, compare them together. But please, if it’s at all possible for you, do it quietly. If for no other reason than El’s still resting.”

“Oh,” Mike says quietly, and they all get to work, scribbling out their lists.

Steve sighs and scans the rest of the room, smiling when he sees Eddie leaning on the doorway. “Hey. Wanna help me bring stuff in?”

“Sure,” Eddie shrugs, and follows him out. It’s silent for a few moments before he speaks. “Y’know, a part of me was hesitant to believe everything until just about three minutes ago.”

Steve chuckles. “It does sound crazy,” he agrees. “What changed your mind?”

“You,” Eddie says simply, like it doesn’t send Steve’s heart jackrabbiting in his chest. “The way you are with the kids.”

Steve chuckles. “Y’know that’s the very reason we started to get along, before?” He glances at Eddie as he shuts the trunk. “We saw how we were with them. We were both a little jealous of each other, mainly cause of Dustin. I swear, he was always going on about Eddie this, Eddie that, greatest Dungeon Master ever but don’t tell Will, and… I started to feel like I was being replaced.” He smirks. “Course, then you told me how he practically worshiped me, and I realized Dustin’s just being a shithead.”

Eddie snorts. “From what I’ve seen of them, that does seem pretty accurate.”

“I know this probably doesn’t mean much to you, but I’m glad you’re here.” He smiles at Eddie and walks inside, giving Eddie a second alone outside.

He almost runs into Robin as he turns the corner, steadying himself, the bag, and her. She looks up at his face, wide-eyed, then slowly morphs the look into a judgy one.

“What?”

“Quit breaking his brain, Dingus, let him actually like you as a person first.”

“How the hell could you tell that from my face?”

She gives him another supremely judgy look. “Have you forgotten I’ve known you for years? Steve,” she sighs, taking the bag from him. He lets her. “Don’t forget this is four years ago for them. At this point, does he even know who Chrissy is?”

“Okay,” Steve admits, “you may have a point. But we had a breakthrough just now! We were talking and he said he believes me because of how I am with the boys!”

Robin sighs again. “And did you respond with something that happens in the future?”

Steve splutters. “How do you do that?”

“I’ve known you for years, Stevie-boy, don’t forget.” She ruffles his hair as she passes. “Leave the future out of it,” she advises. “Live in the now.”

“Kinda hard to do, considering we’re here to change the future,” he says, just to be contrary. She gives him a look like she knows what he’s doing.

“Talk to him like you’re getting to know him for the first time, Steve. Because that’s where he is. Everything about the Upside Down, and even the kids… that’s all secondary. You got along because your personalities match. Give them a chance to.” She smirks at him. “And maybe show off a little bit of that Harrington charm I know is in there somewhere.”

He shakes his head, grinning. “You’ll see one day, Robs, I’ve got game.”

She grins, ruffling his hair one last time before dancing out of reach as he squawks at her. “I’ll believe it when I see it, Dingus.” She leaves, bringing the bag into the other room, and he sighs and follows her, wondering—not for the first time—how he ended up with her as a best friend.

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chirpsythismorning · 1 year

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wait you're not saying you think Jonathan might be Hoppers son too, right? hooking up Twice and having Two sets of kids with each other multiple years apart? sounds a bit too out there and something that would have Had to have come up before if they want it to be satisfying, because there'd be no way either of them could be in the dark about it

Hey, I get it! I was also skeptical myself (I still am)!

To be fair, when it comes to Jonathan, I'm still not 100% certain Hopper is his dad. But tbh, the fact that there is so much sufficient evidence he is Will and El's, along with some notable mentions pointing to the possibility he could be Jon's too, I'm intrigued. Like, they might as well go all out if they're going this route anyways?

No, I would not say it's explicit by any means, though I also wouldn't say with certainty that it's never come up at all either?

I also want to say that it took me a while to get here. I didn't just believe it all at once, it took going through different revelations and correcting theories based on things not adding up, while in contrast other things made a lot more sense for the overall story. And that is bound to continue happening regardless of what I think at this moment!

Initially, after stumbling across twelvegate, I wasn't even sure Will and El were twins? It wasn't until AGAIN rewatching certain scenes and seeing all this twin imagery that made it hard not to consider?

Though even so, at the time I was still pretty set on the assumption that they couldn't have the same mom, with Joyce obviously being Will's mom and Terry obviously being El's mom (right...). And so I thought maybe they could just be half-siblings? Sharing the same dad (Lonnie) and conceived around roughly the same time? Estranged siblings, only mere days/weeks apart? And so like, might as well be twins? I guess?

This was a pretty easy conclusion to come to because there was already a decent amount of evidence from s1 pointing to Lonnie potentially being a volunteer for MKUltra, alongside Terry.

I made a shit-post about this a while back. In case you want to see all the images related to this, feel free to check that out. I'll try to summarize it here quickly though, bc it's probably too vague there with the images alone:

When Hopper and Cal are at the Library in s1, we're shown quick snapshots of newspaper clippings related to Hawkins Lab, with one picture being the volunteers that participated in MKUltra. Though, the first time we see it, it's a negative image. So there was almost this anonymity to it, making you wonder if there was something that might have warranted them not wanting us to see it fully? At least not right away, for some reason? And I think this actually might have been because the effect made it appear like most of the participants were likely women, bc they all had long hair. But then, when we're finally shown the original picture near the end of the episode, right before they let us see it, Hopper says Forget about her (referring to Terry), only to reveal it was actually a man with long hair at the forefront, with Terry in the back to the right... And honestly, this guy in the middle does resemble Lonnie quite a bit. Like, if they had to cast someone to play a late 20's/early 30's Lonnie, this guy would fit the bill.

In that same scene, we also got an article that specifically mentioned individuals that were already addicts/alcoholics being chosen as participants for the experiments, and I do think Lonnie could arguably fit there.

Then there's the multiple comments about Lonnie dating women younger than him, and that might very well have aligned perfectly with Terry's sister saying she had joined MKUltra in college as a way to get extra cash (he would have still been roughly 10 years older than her, assuming she was in here early 20s at the oldest). It's also implied quite a bit that he's not exactly faithful, so this possibility of him cheating on Joyce with Terry while volunteering at the lab, could explain Will and El being practically the same age and with the same dad.

Basically this led me down a rabbit hole that had me genuinely considering the possibility that Will and El are blood related and that Lonnie could be their father, with El being born in the lab with Terry, while Will was born on the outside in Hawkins with Joyce. And I guess this could also fit the whole Will being the control group/El being the experiment group theory? Bc the lab probably found out about Will's existence after he was already born outside of the lab. Maybe they realized this would be a perfect opportunity to compare one kid in the lab vs. one out of the lab?

There are some other notable moments from s1 that read as potential evidence to me. My favorite though probably has to be this one, bc it just screams Willel twins:

This next one is so random, but here we have a transition between El in Mike's basement, followed directly by Lonnie taking a shower at the Byers...

Though, when it comes to Lonnie, he kind of falls off after s1? We get a few mentions of him here and there, but as time goes on, it's less and less. The story as a whole hasn't really prioritized him in the narrative, beyond the first two seasons (mostly the first), which would just make the revelation that he's been their father all along less impactful/satisfying if I'm being honest? Not saying he won't return in a vision or something, because I do think that's likely for s5. And yet arguably they've put more effort into connecting Terry to the overall story's narrative throughout the series than they have for Lonnie. And if you've read my previous posts about Terry, you know that's not saying much...

Which just makes you think, if they're putting all this time into prioritizing Hopper and Joyce, from the very beginning and even until now in s4, then that's probably for a reason? Remember this is a show that wants to encourage its viewers to rewatch it as an overall story once it's all finished. Emphasis on 'be kind, rewind'.

What I think makes this whole time trickery business interesting in regards to this 'crack' theory though, specifically within the context of Back to the Future, is that the plot of the movie was literally centered around Marty going to the past (1955), unintentionally preventing his parents from getting together, which in turn meant he was on track to cease to exist.

Although Marty thought he fixed it, Back to the Future Part II follows a similar storyline. Only this time, because of Marty's actions in the first film, another timeline has emerged that has lead to him, yes technically still existing in 1985 bc his parents still got together like they did in the original timeline, though unfortunately somewhere along the way, in the 70's George McFly died, which lead to a timeline contrasting the original 1985 timeline we were presented with in the first film, which looked like a literal nightmare, with Biff having taken the place of their father.

Which instantly reminds me of another certain show's incoming 1950's timeline, which is said to connect the overall story's s5 revelations with the origin story of Joyce and Hopper...

While I do agree, at a glance it's confusing to presume that not only Will and El are Hopper's kids but also Jonathan, I would argue it's just as confusing that somewhere along the way they got together, while Joyce was still married to Lonnie? If that was the case, I think the story would supplied a lot more evidence of Joyce herself knowing there is a big chance that Will could be his. But instead they behave as though they haven't talked since high school?

So... basically, regardless of time trickery or not, their memories are shot.

Which brings us to the most important piece of the puzzle:

Terrygate.

I am now 99.99% sure Terry is not El's 'Mama'... (Very strong evidence explored here and here)

And so that obviously begs to question, if Terry isn't El's mom? Then who is?

Joyce. It has to be Joyce.

And so that means that us just assuming Lonnie could be both of their dads, and with us now also assuming Joyce is their mom.. Then, maybe they are twins? Maybe all of that twin imagery connected to Will and El did count for something?

If you've read the posts about Terry not being El's mom, then you know that a lot of El's visions provided by Terry have resurfaced in different variations ever since she met her in 2x05, all the way up to now in 4x09. Not only that, but the references to 008 (Kali) in most of these flashbacks, including her flashbacks of the massacre (provided by Brenner), are incredibly suspicious. And the fact that we've got a woman doctor matching the nail polish of Terry in El's memory of her birth (one where you can hear two babies crying, I might add...) could very well be an indication that the memories she has, are tampered with...

You might be thinking NO! NO WAY! And I'm sorry but, Yes. Yes way.

Because this was in large part the main goal of MKUltra, from the very beginning. No, but like literally.

As I'm posting this, @erikiara80 posted this and... It makes so much fucking sense.

Just like El, Hopper has also been experiencing some PTSD like memory flashes throughout the series. We get the same like 10 snippets of memories. They keep reminding us with these snapshots that are super cryptic, only leaving us with more questions than answers.

Not only that, but David has said for YEARS that Sarah's death might not be what it seems, and basically alluded to the fact that she could have some sort of connection to the lab. Hopper literally experiences these flashbacks while trying to find Will in the UD, after discovering Will's tiger in Castle Byers at the end of s1 (the same stuffed animal Sarah, Will and El all have).

Not only that, but it's clear based on the setting of where Hopper is during the flashbacks with his daughter in the hospital, that he is quite literally at Hawkins lab... And so what the hell? He doesn't remember that? Why? Wouldn't that be an important detail for him to bring up and mention at some point? Wouldn't they want to inform us of his history at the lab, assuming he had one there? Wouldn't he be more skeptical about having Will go there if he had such a traumatic experience there? Unless he doesn't remember it being Hawkins lab? Unless those cheap ass memories are not the full truth in the first place??

I mean why else do these flashbacks read like forced memories more than actual reality?

Also, I find it interesting that Hopper left Hawkins right around the time before Will was born, to live in New York with his newborn and his wife (NYU is also Jon's dream school, since he was 6... Interesting).

And so what I think is going on here, is time trickery and false memories. An og timeline and a new one (or more...).

This means that Joyce, Jim, Jonathan, Will and El were probably a family at one point. But they've basically been ripped apart, losing each other (their memories of each other), leading them to believe that they are not family based on new memories in place, blocking the old memories.

The whole thing with Back to the Future is that those 3 kids can ONLY exist if their parents get together. This means that if Biff had somehow ended up preventing George and Lorraine from ever having kids like in the original timeline, then Marty and his siblings would cease to exist, as it wouldn't be possible for Biff and Lorraine to have the same kids as George and Lorraine ie. genetics.

And so this begs to question if perhaps Henry or the lab (assuming they successfully cracked time travel, which was one of the goals of MKUltra...), benefited much greater from Will and El and the entire family not knowing about their true relationship, and yet here they are experiencing the most intense bouts of deja vu I've ever seen.

This scene right here with Hopper? Still 99% unexplained. Why is this dude experiencing borderline dad deja vu, encased in a rainbow, witnessing the lights flicker firsthand (unlike Callahan, who upon arriving, the lights turn back on)? And we're all just nodding our heads like it's nothing, despite having no clue what is going on? This is the pilot? And we don't know what happened here??

Also I wanna remind ya'll that Hopper was seen mixing alcohol with Tuinal in s1, though he did stop after having suspicions he was being watched. And so presumably, since his 'daughters death' he has been highly medicated, mixing drugs/booze... not great for a persons memory... like at all (especially if it was intentionally being done to him by the lab to hide the truth from him).

This is obviously too iconic not to mention. But this basically supports the theory, that despite the this whole family being clueless about their true connection, we're still acknowledging the fact that Joyce and Hopper have indeed been intimate at some point. And here with Will's name being thrown in the middle, followed by That a yeah or? And so what's happening subtly is, Will's name being used as proof that yes. they have... aka Will existing is the proof.

Oh would you look here! Terry likes reading books on Bonsai trees? Wait, didn't Brenner open s4 as a Bonsai tree enthusiast? Also notice what Hopper at the end there? What did I tell you about that dad deja-vu It's almost like subconsciously he knows deep down that there is a connection to Terry and Brenner.

Seems like Terry knows something that someone doesn't want Joyce and Hopper (or the audience) to know... Almost like if she could actually respond to them, she would debunk/correct their assumptions. And so because she can't, the characters (and the audience) believe what is on the surface being told to us, while being forced to rewatch El's memories connected to her mother + Hopper's memories connected to his daughter, over and over in flashes... This is because despite what they're telling us, they're SHOWING us that there's obviously something we're still missing...

Hopper seeing Will's lion stuffed animal in castle byers and it triggering flashbacks of his daughter, n a gown that has clowns on it, matching the clowns in the baby nursery... Like, I don't?.. I just don't trust it? It reads as a mixture of true and false, just like El's flashbacks from Terry and the lab do.

And I'm sorry but, Owens? Oh, he knows something for sure... And there's that dad deja vu again. DUDE KNOWS SOMETHING IS OFF! HE KNOWS!

Also, I am a byler, and so I do agree in part with the byler implications fans have speculated over the years for El and Will's relationship being sort of pushed to obscurity, to represent Mike's struggle between his feelings for both of them...

But, lets really think about this for a second... Girl and boy, who are mirrored to each other for most of s1-2, don't even get properly introduced ever? Like it's just odd that it happens that way. It almost feels like they knew an introduction wouldn't have done them justice? It wouldn't have felt right for these characters, assuming we will all be going back and rewatching from a lens of them being twins and not knowing it? It also makes it a lot more interesting seeing them approach it in this way, where they're quite literally avoiding interactions between them at all costs, only for them to end up being siblings the moment they do start a real connection?

The 2 babies in between them... The keys... This has been a recurring theme since the first fucking episode ya'll, connecting all of these characters? Like, do I even have to say it..?

Will and John sitting in front of the Lucky Charms... Followed by El having deja vu, inspired by the Rainbow/Upside down horse shoe... Remind you of anyone?

Father of (micro)biology behind El, whose looking at Will, both with their matching wrist accessories (also matching Hopper's blue bracelet/watch being focused on for his introduction in the series pilot), and also with a literal Hopper diorama in front of her/between them...

Oh, and just this arguably unnecessary line, that barely even made sense in the context of the scene it was in...? Usually when this happens, it could be a hint that the whole reason it falls flat in the moment is because the true meaning lies somewhere else in a different moment, still yet to be revealed.

And then you know, there's this...

With all of that in mind, these tiny moments in particular, potentially connecting Jonathan's role in all of this, definitely have me side eying...

What part is he talking about? Part I or Part II? What timeline are we in again???!!

Is it explicit and in your face? No. Definitely not. BUT it's there and it arguably holds more weight consistently in terms of these characters all being tied together super intricately and also prioritized more than any of the other supposed parents, since the very beginning... and that seems like something that would make this revelation so fucking crazy, quite literally going full circle just like the Duffers and the actors have been saying the ending indeed accomplishes...

I am subject to be wrong about any and all of this! I am human! And I will be okay if I am wrong! Now, will you be okay with others theorizing? That is up to you my friend!

I do think that this theory does give off the vibe of the whole curtain metaphor in s2 though? How those willing to take a look behind the curtain aka consider byler for example, are going to be the same people that are going to be able to pick up on other things beyond that. Because if you're not willing to consider byler, that means you're going to have to subscribe to the claim that details don't matter, and therefore you're essentially blocking yourself from looking at anything deeper than surface level. Being willing to even look behind the curtain at all, would open the curtain behind that curtain. and the curtain behind that one, and I think behind byler, is Willel. It's like a plot twist within a plot twist. And same goes for Jopper being their biological parents.

Whether or not Jonathan is included in that, along with all of this theory as a whole, remains to be seen!

#byler #stranger things #willel wonder twins #willel literal twins #twelvegate #joyce + hopper = willel #+ jon #??#this is all over the place #but basically #these characters are being played with like pieces on a chess board #they have been here before #they are experiencing deja vu #mentions of time passing either really slowly or even fast and yet they are complaining they don't care how fast it is it feels like foreve #joyce in 1x01: i told you a thousand times #dustin in 1x01 : i told you a million times!#mike 1x04: look at all these fakers #TIME AFTER TIME YALL #it's coming full circle #I think what makes this plausible also is that presumably they never got the chance to even live past that 1983 in the og timeline?#like everything that happened in the series that we've seen them experience has indeed happened to the og characters #but their histories is where the complexities come in #and that's why we see them experiencing this deja vu bc they have been here possibly more than once #mike to el in 1x02: you can just go to the front door and we can pretend like we're meeting again...#has this happened before...?#also... mike deja vu is interesting to think about... bc arguably he could deep down remember el...#HE KNEW IN THAT MOMENT HE LOVED HER? BC HE ALREADY FUCKING KNEW HER PERHAPS ALONG WITH WILL??#will was sad that day they met on the swings alone #but what if he wasn't as some point...#and what if it ends up being revealed that in the og timeline will and el were twins and mike met them both that day

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