#anti tsoa

[june-sunsets]

I'm Greek and I'm fed up

[dootznbootz]

"But in TSOA, they do this-"

"But in Circe, they do that-"

[kebriones]

HE KNEW IT WAS PATROCLUS HE KNEW HE KNEW HECTOR KNEW ALRIGHT!!

I saw another post saying "oooo heehee hector didn't know" just now and my blood pressure skyrocketed

hector knew very well who he was killing when he killed patroclus idk what kinda books yall are reading, is this another thing I should blame on tsoa, is tsoa also to blame for the "hector didn't know it was patroclus" trend?

[kaleb-is-definitely-sane]

Me: *casually watching my fav Youtube chennels video on The Best Couples in History*

Video: *starts with Achilles and Patroclus*

Me: Oooohhh yayyy. I love them. They better not mention that cursed book

Video: Historians and classicists alike have done a poor job at representing these two.

Me: Yes, very true.

Also Video: For better representation, go read The Song of Achilles-

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[unhinged-snake-jaw]

patroclus in tsoa:

oh... i accidentally killed sarpedon??? i'm not built for violence, really. that's achilles. i guess he's always protecting me... i love him, i can't make myself argue with him— i'm so in love with him i don't know to be angry at him. ever.

patroclus in the iliad:

*invents gamer's rage by killing clysonysmus*

{kill count: so high that homer's just listing names at one point}

*kills sarpedon and then KILLS ANYBODY WHO TRIES TO TAKE HIS BODY* (the dead man's father ended up intervening i believe)

"hey patroclus... you're crying like a girl what's wrong??" "what's wrong? what's wrong??? what's wrong is yOU MOTHERFU—"

*knocks hector's charioteer onto the floor with a stone that fucking kills him* 10/10 my guy that was a perfect dive!! trojans seem awfully good at diving out of their chariots, don't you think??

"on my own? i would have killed TWENTY hectors, and you know that."

[random-krab]

Unpopular Iliad & Odyssey opinions that I have/need to be said

Iliad:

Hector/Hektor did nothing wrong

Achilles was (at least) sexually attracted to Men and women and we need to acknowledge this fact on both counts

Achilles is infuriating

Odyssey

Odysseus never cheated on his wife he was forced (which is SA) by Calypso and Crice

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

[encrucijada]

I love your blog and your hatred for TSOA. Besides the Thetis' dad name and the heroes-constellation thing (and the pressed olives spoof), are there other things she's gotten wrong? I'm new to mythology and want to be critical of what I read, but everywhere I visit it's just praises of her work

patroclus

just. his entire thing

patroclus is a soldier just like achilles. being older than achilles he had experience achilles did not and often counselled him in battle. he handled achilles divine horses and he participated in the war with troy. there is a reason achilles agrees to let him put on his armour and lead the myrmidons in his place: patroclus was good at war. he was a mortal man who managed to kill sarpedon son of zeus. he wasn't weak. he wasn't pathetic. he wasn't a healer. frankly i have no idea where madeline even got that from to include in her book. i tried looking up if there was any mythological info on patroclus as a healer and all i got was that, again, patroclus was a soldier. maybe it's because he was friendly with the camp physician??

also achilles. he loved both deidameia and briseis, or he at least he was attracted to them. madeline bending over backwards to make him gay gave us a blatant disrespect of deidameia which is the only part of the book that made me cry (out of frustration and anger). and turned them sleeping together into a rape scene???? orchestrated by thetis who is Also disrespected because all the women are in this fucking book.

madeline turned thetis into a homophobic mum who doesn't approve of her son's boyfriend, which... i don't think i have to say isn't what happens in the mythology. achilles liked women. he had sex with them. he liked having sex with them. this does not negate he had a romantic and possibly sexual relationship with patroclus.

thetis liked patroclus in the iliad. she offered to look after his corpse and keep it from decaying while achilles returned to battle. also: achilles was the one who asked her to make the achaeans lose because he was disrespected, not the other way around. i also feel the need to say the remaining conflict of shade!patroclus is so funny to me because there is an entire book in the iliad dedicated to his funeral games. the army liked him and gave him a proper burial lol

in regards to neoptolemus (achilles' son) from what i can see him being a heartless brutal killer seems to be a roman invention but this is only from a quick wikipedia read, i could be wrong. though i do remember him being portrayed as the compassionate one when i read philoctetes.

[belle-keys]

should we tell her?

[that-guy-in-the-chiton]

Reading Circe only to drop it after seeing how Miller changed Helios from a loving father and a decent person to a narcissistic sociopath who only cares for himself and Odysseus from an intelligent, grey character who sincerely loved his wife and child to an arrogant, manipulative abuser.

[swallowtail-ageha]

Lesbian sex isn't enough i need to hear my grecolatin teacher ripping into madeline miller books

[eremin0109]

The more I read about Patroclus' actual characterization in the Iliad, the more my distaste for Madeline Miller's version of him grows.

Like lady, how do you take this MAN who was a formidable, seasoned warrior with a body count that was CANONICALLY greater than that of Achilles', a briliant strategist and an army medic, charming as all hell, bisexual as fuck AND rips apart Zeus' goddamn son with his bare fucking hands and turn him into whatever the fuck TSOA Patroclus was???!?

With all due respect, Patrochilles aren't your run of the mill yaoi couple and the only reason I can see for her to "feminize" Patroclus was to make two WARRIORS who canonically had a balanced dynamic between them to forcefully fit into the done and dusted, absolutely fetishizing seme/uke (erastes and eromenos, if you will) trope. And this is just sad because had she been true to the original characterizations, it would've made for a vastly more interesting retelling and not a book that basically glorifies and justifies Achilles' horrible deeds and makes Patroclus a dumb simp who can't see anything wrong with his boyfriend's actions.

[athamad]

"Name one hero who was happy." how about you name me a relationship you had with any woman that was consensual

[pelideswhore]

Heyyy, hope you're having a good day!!

I wanted to ask why you didn't you like Circe or The song of Achilles? /gen

I have not read neither of them but I've heard positive reviews from almost EVERYONE so I thought it'd be good to see a different opinion about them, I don't wanna get my hopes up too much and then get disappointed, yk?

hello!! thank you for the ask :)

i’ll be honest— i haven’t read circe (because tsoa made madeline miller irredeemable to me) but from what i’ve heard of it, it seems to really be pushing radical feminist ideology. in the odyssey, circe (if anyone) is the one to rape odysseus, but madeline miller flips the narrative and puts the blame on odysseus. this is obviously very harmful for male victims of rape. other than that, i’m just really not a fan of any of these feminist retellings. it’d be too much to put in one ask, but it erases history, takes credit away from the real women that lived in these times and isn’t even good feminism to be pushing now

as for tsoa….. omg <33333 i hate it. i have a whole long post about it here, but in short, i hate all the rape that is glossed over, the erasure of achilles’ and patroclus’ actual sexualities, the cardboard of a main character that patroclus is and the vilification of apollo. that’s just to name a few things. even apart from storytelling, her style is just simply not for me. way too extravagant.

[rosquinn]

Hi Roski! I have a question, would you mind to help, please?

Okay, so the other when I was wandering through the shelves of my local library I found our that they have a copy of Madeline's Miller Circe... And I was thinking that maybe I should give it a try? 😅

I know that it's not mythology accurate but as long as the plotline is well-written... Idk maybe I will enjoy in spite of it 🤷🏻‍♀️ Do you is it a good idea?

I just wanted to know if you believe is worth the time or nor

Also, same goes for Achilles's song. They don't have it at the library, but I thought that if I enjoyed Circe I should try it to? 🤔

girl.... i used to be a HUGE madelline miller fan *vaguely gestures at her short story about galatea i still have in my bookshelf for some reason* but, um. i realized she kind of. sucks.

it's not about her writing, (it's excessively "poetic" and decorated in my opinion but that's subjective) it's that her interpretations are kind of, uh, bad.

SRSLY I HAVE A LOT OF BEEF WITH HER... I'M GONNA ELABORATE UNDER THE CUT ABOUT WHY I DON'T LIKE HER (tw for potential madelline miller hate, long rant and *mentions of s/a*)

-she victimizes her female main character and makes her go through traumatic experiences to erase and excuse all the bad stuff she's done... "circe turned odysseus' men into pigs bc they tried to assault her" yeah. no. she forced odysseus to sleep with her and turned his men into pigs because she felt like it. i understand you want a feminist badass witch but just. no. she isn't a cute uwu unfairly exiled goddess. what she did to odysseus is sexual abuse.

-she apparently hates women that aren't circe. made thetis, i repeat, our thetis, MOTHER thetis, a homophobic and overprotective mom who wants to kill patroclus in SOA for some reason (wasn't she literally the one who sent patroclus to the war with achilles..... miller..aren't you a classics major..). she did to her what other adaptations do to demeter, basically. and for no reason at all. but i guess her cute baby achilles who is doomed by the narrative can't have a nice mom who let him do whatever he wanted to because that would make him RUDE and EVIL and her character(s) can't have bad qualities. she also made achilles's wife, deidameia, who in some versions is raped by him, a “slut that gets in the way of your gay ship” archetype. she also made her rape achilles for some reason??? and that is fucking horrible man like wtf.

-baby-fied patroclus. he speaks like a stupid teenager girl stereotype in soa and is pretty much a useless human being whose entire personality is simping for achilles. that is not him. he DID fight in the trojan war, he was a SKILLED fighter, not a useless twig, he is described as tall and handsome, he healed some warriors, he is SAVAGE, bro literally broke kebriones's head with a rock in front of his brother and made fun of it??? he tried to climb the walls of troy and conquer it by himself??? he told achilles to stop being a bitch and move his ass??? and then in soa he's a useless piece of shit who DIDN'T EVEN FIGHT IN THE WAR, thinks of himself as weak and was thinking about achilles until the moment he died. sorry to break it to you but his last words in the iliad weren't "omg achilles no😥😥". he threw a whole essay at hector about how he didn't kill shit, it was apollo who beat him and hector's about to get dragged. and when his ghost came back to talk to achilles, it was to tell him to STOP CRYING and KILLING PEOPLE and BURN HIS BODY ALREADY. she completely erased his character. sorry.

-glorified achilles wayyy too much. one thing that i hate about her is how she can't let anyone make mistakes. girl, achilles isn't “noble and doomed by the narrative”. he knew pretty well where he was stepping in and didn't give two shits. he literally says in Iliad book 1 he's there for the mass murder, glory and nothing more. “why would i kill hector what has hector ever done to me” MY ASS. he also was kind of an insufferable bitch in the iliad. i'm tired of people making his decision of stop fighting look “heroic/noble/tragic/etc bc agamemnon is evil” because it was not. he stopped fighting for selfish reasons, treated everyone really bad and let his friends die. also, agamemnon isn't “evil” and achilles isn't “good”. they're both war criminals who act like 8 year olds and kidnap women. every achaean character is a bitch, has killed at least 6 people and enjoyed it. yes. even babyboy patroclus (book 16)

-i'm not even saying this as a person with greek ancestry or a pagan, because i am neither, but her depiction of the gods is TERRIBLE. just what is that whole thing of "gods want mortals to fear them so they worship them"??? that's not even how religion works??? gods can be and in fact are very nice to their worshippers?? why would you villainize cultural figures like that?? and why tf it always gotta be a EVIL FEMALE GODDESS trying to fuck up her main character's life for some reason?? athena wants to kill circe's son in circe and i'm pretty sure they don't even interact in the odyssey?? (maybe they did, i don't remember, but if it happened it was definitely NOT because of that) and why is hermes a manipulator?? and why is ODYSSEUS a manipulator??? girl you literally sexually assaulted him??? HELLO????

idk, it just feels like mc victimization and random female character villainization (she also put the whole blame of the trojan war on helen because she was “vain” and “selfish”??? didn't she spend the whole iliad blaming herself for the war and wishing to die??)

i don't really like it. it's not a good adaptation

also i'm not the best person to expand on this topic because i am not a gay man/mlm/nblm but some people on tumblr have explained why tsoa is basically mlm fetish and wattpad fujoshi looking crap and they do have a point (the relationship is so stereotyped tbh) so i encourage you to read their posts. i don't have them rn but i can dm them to you later if you want

AND finally, most people in her fanbase can't separate a wattpad fanfic (because that's what tsoa is) from the original text and think tsoa and circe are just like what homer wrote. “hector didn't know it was patroclus” HE FUCKING DID PATROCLUS KILLED 20 PEOPLE IN FRONT OF HIM IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE “patroclus died bc he wasn't a skilled warrior” HE HAS THE SECOND HIGHEST KILL COUNT IN THE WHOLE ILIAD AND WAS FULL OF HUBRIS. HE DIED BECAUSE HE TRIED TO FISTFIGHT A GOD “deidameia raped achilles” “thetis is homophobic” “odysseus is evil” “it was all helen's fault” “circe did nothing wrong” “athena is bad” no (and they act like not shipping patrochilles makes you homophobic which is. cmon. i personally think they def had something going on but it's never explicitly stated and you can't act like it is)

ik i got too aggressive but it's just bad imo, if you want to enjoy a good iliad/odyssey adaptation go play hades or listen to epic the musical or even play limbus company because i swear lc's odysseus, a literal old woman who committed identity fraud, is at least 80 times more in character than miller's babyboys

ADDITION: no i'm not going to dismember you for liking tsoa or circe. this is just a personal opinion. enjoy whatever you want i'm just a little guy and i can't stop you. have fun!