#asoiaf succession crises

[lemonhemlock]

sometimes i don't know if i have cognitive issues or if fire and blood is just confusing and plays tricks on the reader -_- Lucerys is the heir to driftmark in the show, but in the book, did that happen? because it is not said. Is: Corlys gets sick > Rhaenyra asks his father-in-law to name his second son heir > Vaemond and his cousins/brothers and sons are furious > vaemond is murdered > viserys cuts out the velaryon's tongues > viserys cuts himself on the throne and nearly dies > his recovery party > alicent and rhaenyra dispute for the new grand maester. the only time the problem is mentioned is when the greens in their generous terms, offer to recognize lucerys as heir to driftmark, but he is never said as such, just addam.

Sorry if it's long, it's just a question I've had for a long time -_-'

Hi! I searched for the passage you're referring to:

That same year, across Blackwater Bay, the Sea Snake was stricken by a sudden fever. As he took to his bed, surrounded by maesters, the issue arose as to who should succeed him as Lord of the Tides and Master of Driftmark should the sickness claim him. With both his trueborn children dead, by law his lands and titles should pass to his eldest grandson, Jacaerys…but since Jace would presumably ascend the Iron Throne after his mother, Princess Rhaenyra urged her good-father to name instead her second son, Lucerys. Lord Corlys also had half a dozen nephews, however, and the eldest of them, Ser Vaemond Velaryon, protested that the inheritance by rights should pass to him…on the grounds that Rhaenyra’s sons were bastards sired by Harwin Strong. The princess was not slow in answering this charge. She dispatched Prince Daemon to seize Ser Vaemond, had his head removed, and fed his carcass to her dragon, Syrax. Even this did not end the matter, however. Ser Vaemond’s younger cousins fled to King’s Landing with his wife and sons, there to cry for justice and place their claims before the king and queen. King Viserys had grown extremely fat and red of face, and scarce had the strength to mount the steps to the Iron Throne. His Grace heard them out in a stony silence, then ordered their tongues removed, every one. “You were warned,” he declared, as they were being dragged away. “I will hear no more of these lies.”

Luke is not specifically designated as Driftmark's heir in a sentence, but the course of events heavily implies this is the case. Viserys' dishes out punishment for whoever says Luke is a bastard, so, if no one is allowed to admit it, then he becomes the heir by default. Since Vaemond's and the rest of the Velaryons' own claims rest on the fact that Luke is not Laenor's son. Had he been so, there would have been no debate in the first place.

[hollowwhisperings]

The Real Housewives of Westeros: Wives & Widows Frey

I saw the Joke and Ran With It. Most of these women exist as Names Only, few having much in the way of Personal Biography. I have "Made Do", when plausible, by connecting them to Each Other &/or to Better Known Characters. As their ages are generally Not Given (or are of Ridiculous Range), feel free to HC them as the Reality TV Stars of Your Choosing: my knowledge of such shows ends with their having Fun Titles & Dubious Authenticity.

CW: spoilers on canoical character deaths (TWoW excerpts included), reference to the Red Wedding ("RW"), implications of infidelity (& thus in-setting slutshaming), mentions of canonical cousin-incest (& occasional debunkings thereof), casual speculation on Theories of Varying Degrees of Crackiness (largely shoved into As Yet Unposted "Footnote" Posts but I may have Missed Some).

The (As Yet Unwidowed) Housewives of House Frey

• Lady Joyeuce Erenford of the Crossing, b. 282/283 AC (17). The 8th & current wife of Lord Walder Frey (92). Pregnant, allegedly by "Black" Walder (a great-grandson of her husband). Expectant Widow.

• Janyce Hunter, wife of Edwyn Frey (Heir Apparent of Lord Walder Frey). Mother of Walda (9~10, 2nd in line to inherit The Twins). Expectant Widow & Prospective Bride of "Black" Walder Frey (...assuming he doesn't claim his Nieces as his bastards, delegitimizing them all). Of unknown relation to the current Lord Hunter of Longbow Hall (while a Rosby-Frey does serve as that Castle's Maester, Janyce married into the Royce-Freys).

• Deana Hardyng, wife of Walton Frey (a character in Name-Only). Mother of Steffon "the Sweet" (20~40), "Fair" Walda (19/20) & Bryan (9~19, a squire). Of unknown relation to Ser Harrold Hardyng, likely an aunt or cousin.

• Lady Genna Lannister of Riverrun (55), wife of Lord Emmon Frey (RW participant). Only sister of the late Lord Tywin Lannister & a maternal figure to his 3 children. Mother of Ser Cleos (killed pre-RW), Ser Lyonel (27~32, likely RW participant), Tion (murdered pre-RW) & "Red" Walder (15, a page at Casterly Rock). Goodsister of Perriane Frey. Expectant Widow (by her own husband, no less!).

• Melesa Crakehall, wife of Ser Lyonel Frey (likely participant in the RW). Without issue. Her husband is 3rd in line to inherit Riverrun & 15th in line to inherit The Twins. Goodsister of Jeyne Darry. Of unknown relation to Shiera Crakehall (wife of Ser Damion Lannister, the current castellan of Casterly Rock), Lord Roland of Crakehall (for whom both Merrett Frey & Ser Jaime Lannister squired in their Begrudgingly Shared Childhood) or the late Lady Amarei Crakehall (3rd wife of Lord Frey). Her husband is of the Royce-Freys (the line of Lord Walder by his 1st wife, Perra Royce), Just In Case you were Worried.

• Ryella Royce, wife of Ser Arwood Frey (a Schrodinger's RW participant). Mother of Ryella (6), twins Androw & Alyn (4) & Hostella (~1). Probably a daughter of Lord Yohn Royce & thusly the "Goodsister" of Ser Mychel Redfort. Of unknown relation to the late Perra Royce and her line of Royce-Freys. Her husband is of the Crakehall-Freys, just in case you were Worried.

• Lady Lythene Frey, wife of Lord Lucias Vypren (RW participant). Mother of Elyana (19~37) & Ser Damon (18~36). Goodsister of Bellena Hawick, Betharios of Braavos, Wynafrei Whent, Lady Mariya Darry, Carolei Waynwood & Beony Beesbury. Likely RW Conspirator.

• Elyana Vypren (19~37), wife of Ser Jon Wylde (probable RW participant). Mother of Rickard (5).

• Betharios of Braavos, wife of Symond Frey (RW participant). Mother of Alesander the Singer (19~27), Alyx (18) & Bradamer (11, ward of a Braavosi merchant). Possible spymaster. Both her husband & eldest child have Disappeared: her son from the RW, alongside Olyvar & Ser Perwyn; her husband was last seen leaving White Harbour for Barrowton on a gifted palfrey*. As ever, I have Theories (noted far below, in Footnotes): notably, to me, none of her children are named for Lord Walder (a good guide on Which Freys have Ambitions, generally speaking).

• Wynafrei Whent, wife of Ser Danwell Frey (RW participant). Without issue, to the distress of them both. Of unknown relation to the Late Ladies: Sarya (5th wife of Lord Frey, one of Danwell's step-mothers), Shella (last Lady of Harrenhal), or Minisa Whent (mother of Catelyn, Lysa & Edmure Tully). She & her husband are guests at Castle Darry.

• Lady Walda Frey of the Dreadfort, b. 283/284 AC (16). Wife of Lord Roose Bolton (key engineer of the RW & Murderer of King Robb). Pregnant & Rightfully Terrified: the latest Victim in the Winterfell Murder Mysteries was her brother, "Little" Walder Frey (9), & she's been living with Ramsay Bolton. The Safety of the pregnant Lady Bolton is Motive for the Darry-Freys to "Turncloak" on their kin or, at least, Houses Bolton & Lannister. A Certain Northern Spymaster (recent escapee of the Boltons of Winterfell), may prove "Helpful" in this regard... assuming Littlefinger or an Envoy of "Aegon Targaryen" don't beat him to it.

• Beony Beesbury, wife of Ser Raymund Frey (murderer of Lady Catelyn Tully of Winterfell). Mother of Robert (17, an acolyte of the Citadel), Malwyn (16, an apprentice alchemist in Lys), the twins Serra & Sarra (15), Cersei "Little Bee" (7), & the twins Jaime & Tywin (<1). Her having "twin" sets of twins whilst living at "The Twins" likely aided in Inspiring the Ambitions of her husband & (presumably) herself. Of unknown relation to the late Jeyne Beesbury (wife of Rhaegar Frey of the Royce-Freys) or Lord Warryn Beesbury of Honeyholt.

• Leonella Lefford, wife of "Lame" Lothar Frey (key engineer of the RW). Mother of Tysane (8), Walda (5), Emberlei (3) & Leana (~1). Of unknown relation to Lady Alysanne Lefford of Golden Tooth. Goodsister of Sallei & Sylwa Paege, of Morya & Tyta "the Maid" Frey. Her involvement in her husband's [war crimes] is Unspecified but she does have a daughter named "Walda".

• Sallei Paege, wife of Ser Jammos Frey (RW participant). Mother of "Big" Walder (9) & the twins Dickon & Mathis (6). Likely a sister of Sylwa Paege (entry below Sallei's though I suspect Sylwa is the elder of the two). Of unknown relation to Ser Halmon (last known Head of House Paege) or Ser Robert (friend of Edmure Tully) Paege.

• Sylwa Paege, wife of Ser Whalen Frey (RW participant). Mother of Hoster (13) & "Merry" Frey (12). Likely a sister of Sallei.

• Morya Frey, wife of Ser Flement Brax (RW participant). Mother of Robert (10), Walder (7) & Jon (4).

• Roslin Frey (18), wife of Edmure Tully. Traumatised Bride of The RW. Currently a Pregnant Hostage of the Lannister-Freys of Riverrun. Goodsister of the late Ladies Stark & Arryn. Part of the Conditions for Ser Jaime's success in lifting the Siege of Riverrun was the Safe Reunion of Edmure & Roslin... as hostages in Casterly Rock (after she gives birth). Known to pray for a girl (lest a son get Immediately Murdered).

• The Schrodinger's Mother of Walder Haigh, presumably the living wife of Ser Harys Haigh (RW participant). "Exists" due to Walder (5) being of Legitimate birth; does not Exist due to her lacking any indication whatsoever of being Alive (or Dead).

The (Current) Widows Frey

• Mylenda Caron, b. 258~266 AC (34~42). Widow of Petyr Frey (RW participant). Mother of Perra Frey (6), 4th in line to inherit The Twins. Prospective bride of "Black" Walder, assuming he doesn't wed her Goodsister, delegitimize both their children (& their mothers with them) or, y'know, just Kills Them All (a fear of Edwyn Frey's). Potential claimant to Nightsong, where a Ser Rolland Storm is Lord (by the decree of King Stannis, due to the deaths of his Lord Father & legitimate half-brother) though their exact relation is unknown.

• Jeyne Darry, widow of Ser Cleos Frey (killed prior to the RW). Mother of "Ty" (12, heir of Riverrun), & Willem (10, a page at Ashemark). Goodsister of Melessa Crakehall (wife of Ser Lyonel of the Royce-Freys) & the Crakehall-Freys (children of Lord Walder by the late Amarei Crakehall, her relation to Melessa being unknown) through her elder sister, Lady Mariya Darry. Resents being "displaced" in the inheritance of Castle Darry (despite her rather comfortable position as the Future Regent of Riverrun).

• Perriane Frey (50's), widow of Ser Leslyn Haigh (RW participant). Eldest daughter of Lord Walder (by the late Perra Royce). Mother of Ser Harys (17~49), Ser Donnel (16~48) & Alyn (9~47, a squire). At least 2 of her sons participated in the RW. 22nd in line for The Twins. The relation of Lord Yohn Royce to the late Perra Royce (& thus the Royce-Freys) is unspecified.

• Zhoe Blanetree, widow of Ser Tytos Frey (killed outside the RW). Mother of Zia (15) & Zachery (13, student at the Sept of Oldtown). Goodsister of Kyra Frey.

• Kyra Frey (30-40's), widow of Ser Garse Goodbrook (RW participant). Daughter of Ser Jared Frey by his cousin, the late Alys Frey. Mother of Walder (10) & Jeyne (7).

• Bellena Hawick, widow of Ser Hosteen Frey (RW participant, killed in TWoW?). Mother of Ser Arwood (18~40). Goodsister of the Crakehall-Freys. Probable guest at Castle Darry.

• Lady Mariya Darry. Widow of Merrett Frey (RW participant). Mother of "Gatehouse" Ami (18), "Fat" Walda (17), Marissa (15) & the late "Little" Walder Frey (9). She & her children are Directly Responsible for my gaining An Interest in the Intrigues of the Frey Civil War.

• Lady Amerei Frey of Castle Darry (18). Eldest daughter of Lady Mariya Darry by the late Merrett Frey (RW participant). Twice-married & newly single, whomever wins Ami's Hand in Matrimony shall have Lordship (of Castle Darry). Her Loyalties & Tracts of Land are Actually Rather Important**, plot-wise.

• Carolei Waynwood, widow of Ser Geremy Frey ("drowned"). Mother of Sandor (14, a squire) & Cynthea (9, a ward at Iron Oaks). Probably a daughter of Lady Anya Waynwood, given her children's places within Lady Waynwood's Household. Both children are in attendance for the upcoming Tourney of the Winged Brotherhood at the Gates of the Moon (held for Lord Robert Arryn by the suggestion of "Alayne Stone"). If she yet lives, Carolei is likely sheltering with her Goodsisters at Castle Darry.

• Jyana Frey, widow of her cousin Ser Benfrey Frey (RW participant). Mother of "Deaf" Della (4) & Osmund (3). Goodsister of Roslin Frey.

Footnotes (links to Elaborated Tinhattery)

*Betharios of Norvos & Frey Pies: "They Were Ahorse". [Post upcoming].

**"Gatehouse Ami" & the Gate Next Door: How Wooing Darry Could Win Conquest of Westeros. [Post upcoming].

[the-daily-dreamer]

Aegon the Conquerer was literally married to both of his sisters at the same time, the entire monarchy is the result of him having sons with both wives, yet you’ve got a problem with Rhaenyra having two husbands and claiming those kids shouldn’t inherit? Sounds like bullshit to me

Lmaoooooo. Are you actually this stupid? I’m sorry. Usually I can keep my cool, but this is the most moronic straw-man argument I’ve ever seen. I have to laugh.

You’re making this a sexism thing when it’s not. But you Targ stans love to come up with arguments about how bad the other side is and throw baseless accusations so that you lot are morally superior (and btw you never will be because you support incestuous, blood purist tyrants)

So first of all, Aegon I is a shitbag, a terrible ruler, a self-important asshat, and I hate him. He is one of the main causes of all the succession crises that exist in the ASOIAF universe because he couldn’t keep it in his pants and HAD to marry his second sister because he found her hotter than the first sister he married (bleh), and he couldn’t be bothered to actually come up with rules because god forbid he and his “exceptional” family be held to any standards or laws.

Second of all, I’m not blaming Rhaenyra for all the succession problems, only the specific one she causes: The Dance of Dragons. Like it or not, Rhaenyra (and her father) is the root cause of the issue in this show. By being politically inept and doing nothing in her 20 years as heir to gain support, and committing treason by pushing clear bastards in the throne, Rhaenyra causes a succession crisis.

And third and most importantly of all, these two situations are completely incomparable. Aegon having two sister-wives is not the same as Rhaenyra having bastards with someone she isn’t married to and pushing them on the throne, or faking the death of her first husband to illegally marry her second husband making her kids bastards lol.

Jace and Luc are not the products of any sort of husband. They are Harwin Strong’s kids who is not her husband, so yeah. She’s in the wrong and her kids can’t be on the throne, they’re not legitimate like Aegon I’s were. And Rhaenyra doesn’t have two legitimate husbands like Aegon I had two legitimate wives. She’s not practicing polygamy. She faked the death of the first husband to marry the second husband. That’s not the same as having two husbands at the same time. Her marriage to Daemon is under the stipulation that her previous marriage is over, and because it isn’t, her second marriage isn’t legitimate and her kids from that are bastards.

Get some media literacy skills and comprehension skills before you start calling me on bullshit. Her kids from Harwin have zero claim to the throne and her kids with Daemon have slightly more claim in universe, but we as an audience know they have zero claim too. Those are the facts. Sorry

[racefortheironthrone]

Ok bit of a weird Westerosi legal question: So under modern monarchies, the new monarch becomes the monarch the moment their predecessor ceases to breath, regardless of any formal declarations and ceremonies. Yet HotD (and possibly GOT) seems to not follow that and the new monarch doesnt seem to be refered to as such until the coronation, creating a weird legal situation? I mean, it might also be because we have only seen disputed successions on screen with the exception of Joffrey to Tommen. That said, in the scene where Tywin talks to Tommen, Tommen says "I will be King" implying he is not king yet.

So this is something I got critiqued for when I was starting out doing analyses of medieval history and ASOIAF - I had assumed that the whole instant transfer of sovereignty thing, "the king is dead long live the king" and so forth, was pretty much universal in medieval societies.

I was informed, and quite correctly, that the creation of the legal concept of "le mort saisit le vif" was a late medieval adaptation to earlier crises which had taken place in a paradigm where there was indeed an interregnum between monarchs - think about the aftermath of William Rufus' "hunting accident" in the New Forest in 1100, where the future Henry I had to race his brothers to seize the royal treasury and then get crowned before they could do the same thing.

Indeed, in the early Middle Ages, because the laws and customs of inheritance were less settled, people tended to emphasize the role of the actual ceremony of the coronation - candidates for the throne could bandy about their claims as much as they wanted, but what really mattered was whether someone was actually anointed by holy oils and thus chosen by God to be king. In that context, the whole idea of "the king is dead long live the king" denied the essential nature of monarchy.

Ultimately, the English monarchy adopted the principle of "le mort saisit le vif" during a potential political crisis in 1272. Henry III had died, but his son and heir Edward I was fighting in the Ninth Crusade and thus couldn't get home to be crowned in a timely fashion. Because England had just recovered from the Second Barons' War and the political situation was rather shaky, rather than allow a dangerous interregnum to take place, the Curia Regis declared that "The throne shall never be empty; the country shall never be without a monarch" and Edward was proclaimed king in absentia ahead of the formal coronation.

[alicentes]

Eh, Rhaenys as queen would have continued propping up the tyrannical Targaryen dynasty, there inevitably would have been wars and succession crises down the road because that's how these systems work, and her ambitious husband would have made a lot of enemies by using her position as queen for his own ends. The character on the show is very likeable and her resentment at being passed over because of her sex is valid, but it's not like she was really any better than the rest of them.

Yeah you make some valid points and I agree with you but when it comes down to Viserys or Rhaenys she is definitely the better choice with a better understanding of politics. I also don’t think any consuequences of her reign would have been as bad as the consequences of viserys’ reign. Ultimately power hungry aristocrats will come out of the woodworks to ruin things no matter who is on the throne and how loved or good at their job they are. It’s like choosing who will bring the smallest disasters.

At the end of the day, I’m an anti royalist living in a country where the majority of people seem to have joined a royalist cult so I agree that all monarchs are bad by default because the monarchy is so corrupt one person, one family should not have that much power and that the common people deserve more power and to have a say in the issues that impact them without being burnt up by a dragon for wanting human rights. My hope for the end of the asoiaf books is that the seven kingdoms split and the north, dorne, the iron islands all get their independence and are not under the control of a corrupt monarch that does not care about their individual country.

[gameofthronedd]

But when you read The Scarlet Letter, did you supported the reverend, the puritan colony and Hester’s husband because adultery and fornication are the greatest and most monstrous sins and women can’t go around fucking anyone like harlots just because they want to ? Did you supported shaming, public humiliation and social stigma, even though this is exactly what the author denounces and rejects ? Just asking, because you willfully and spectacularly missed the point of the Dance and ASOIAF.

Haven't read The Scarlet Letter so I can't comment on that lmao.

My personal way of consuming ASOIAF is generally relatively neutral. As I've said, I like to try and understand characters and their drives, mindset, actions, consequences of actions etc. I do obviously have opinions and find things wrong or bad. But if I'm trying to consider characters objectively, and in regards to context, then I will analyse them in a more neutral way. Personally, that's just what I do. I like or enjoy most characters in HOTD, GOT and ASOIAF, and my enjoyment doesn't necessarily stem from whether I morally agree with them. Moreso, just who is more interesting to analyse.

That's just me. Consume content how you wish and like who you want :)

Now onto the author's messaging. GRRM is somewhat tricky in terms of 'placing' his commentary. We can't really say he's a feminist writer. Though he has female main characters and those aiming for the throne, that doesn't make him someone who is always writing from a narrative of "respect women". For example, there is extensive use of SA/r*pe scenes, hypersexualisation (especially of WOC) etc. Anyway, I would argue that ASOIAF, overall, is a critique of power at its very core.

My take is that the overall point of ASOIAF is a narrative of power, offering critiques of absolute monarchy, war, changing appetities of power and greed, an inability to see the bigger picture outside of personal ambition etc. As for the Dance, I view it in a similar way. I also think the Dance shows, like ASOIAF, the extents of inhumanity and how far people can go to maintain and attain power. Both sides are wrong and both sides are right, each each other's antagonist, and neither has a ruler that would be "ideal" (whether it be poor personality or poor political skills). Furthermore, the Dance is, at the end of the day, a tragedy. No one wins, not even House Targaryen. In fact, the Dance spells doom for the Targaryen Dynasty, the loss of dragons meaning a loss of hard power and the thing that made them "special" - all because of the insatiable greed of humanity. Not to mention, the Dance doesn't solve anything; we see the Blackfyre rebellions and further succession crises.

The Dance and ASOIAF are not about who should be the monarch because overall they critique power and insatiable ambition and this looming Iron Throne that distracts everyone from the real threat. Even in HOTD, we see Rhaenyra recieve this prophecy and no real engagement from Viserys or Nyra about what the "threat" is. Keep in mind, Viserys' stipulation about Targaryen blood being on the throne is an interpretation. He and Nyra both think a Targ should be ruler, neither considers what the threat is and they are only concerned about being on the throne. In Nyra's case, she takes Viserys' belief that she is the one to "unite the realm" and steadfastly maintains her right to the throne, despite knowledge of the need to unite the realm, the fact that a civil war will cause chaos, negatively impact the Targaryen Dynasty & whilst knowing that there is a threat out there.

That may sound like a dig at Nyra but it isn't. My point is, Rhaenyra does not exist outside the commentaries within the Dance, namely that of power and, especially in the case of Nyra & moreso Viserys, the issue of ignorance to the most pressing issues. This can also be related to the suffering of the smallfolk and how nobles seemingly don't give two shits about anything happening to the common people of Westeros.

To summarise, my take is that they (the Dance and ASOIAF) critique power and humanity, and the inhumanity that stems from desiring power.

I personally believe that literature and media can be consumed and analysed in a variety of ways. Following the author's view of the subject matter, remaining a detached consumer or having a  completely different view of the work are all valid ways of consuming literature and media. If everyone liked the same characters and processed media in the same way, the world would be quite boring, imo.

If you have a different interpretation of ASOIAF & the Dance, feel free to share, anon.

[lemonhemlock]

imo an underexplored part of Corlys is how admitting to Rhaenyra's children being bastards would slight both his son and him, and his entire house. He'd rather play make-believe than admit that for one, he arranged his gay son into an unhappy marriage which eventually led to his early death, and secondly, actually give the rumours that his son is indeed gay and can't produce children concrete affirmation. for a story so concerned with misogyny, the homophobia is so easily handwaved away as if these two are not integral in upholding of cishet patriarchy.

what you're saying is true, but, at some point, it becomes a matter of just cutting down your losses and doing some damage control. where was corlys when laenor was spending most of his time on driftmark gallivanting with knights while rhaenyra was popping out babies he had nothing to do with? he didn't do a damn thing about it

i actually had a conversation with @duxbelisarius today where he pointed out that the silent five (aka vaemond's cousins whom viserys ordered their tongues be cut out) actually fought for the greens during the war and three of them even died in battle, that's how deep their grudge went. not to mention the fact that the remaining two plotted to murder alyn after corlys' death so that he wouldn't inherit in their stead.

so all this make-believe happy families fantasy that i see team black peddling, about how luke & rhaena would have made a great power couple ruling driftmark in peace, because they love and care for each other or whatever, is straight-up delusional. the velaryons would have assassinated luke as soon as possible to get him out of the way and, had they been sent joffrey as a replacement, they would have done the same to him. rhaenyra was living in la la land for making such a fuss about driftmark, while corlys was absolutely incompetent as head of the family for putting his house in such a precarious position that his death would be followed by in-fighting and instability

i think that he perhaps DID eventually realise what a stupid idea that was and, in the aftermath of the luke debacle, decided to make sure driftmark at the very least goes to someone with velaryon blood, but he went about it in the most annoying and unhelpful way possible.*

can you imagine the audacity of this man to clown on (dead) rhaenys' memory AND on rhaenyra's arse at the same time in order to engineer driftmark to pass to HIS bastard son? all the while claiming that alyn was fathered by his gay son? who everyone knew was gay? and couldn't have fathered joffrey? otherwise why would you break the law** to give driftmark to laenor's alleged bastard instead of his alleged trueborn son?*** corlys must have taken lessons from rhaenyra herself, because that's the most boldfaced lie i ever did see

this man was so annoying FORREAL. was there at least one member of his family he didn't fuck over in some way? truly an example of being prideful to the point of stupidity

*not to mention, of course, that he already had legitimate heirs of his own body in baela and rhaena. and, lacking that, there were other true-born velaryons who could have inherited.

[EDIT: i'm wondering if this isn't a behind-the-scenes reason for daenaera being presented at the maiden's ball. daeron velaryon (don't get me started on the audacity of him being named daeron as well) was vaemond's son and also contested driftmark after baela & rhaena had been passed over in favour of alyn. so i'm wondering if baela didn't devise this little match to placate her cousin with a trade-off: if he couldn't have driftmark, at least his daughter would become queen]

**i'm saying he broke the law bc grrm himself states that it's unclear where precisely in the line of succession legitimised bastards fall. whether they go by birth order in between the other true-borns or they just go straight to the back of the line, behind all other heirs born within wedlock. so the legality of shoving alyn in front of everybody else is debatable at the very least

***idek how to call this, he is literally using his gay son to cover up his own arse and inadvertently implies that laenor was both cuckolded by rhaenyra (in that joffrey isn't his) AND that he broke his own marriage vows to rhaenyra by sleeping with another woman. he truly is a poet in the way he manages to implicitly insult everyone left and right

[lemonhemlock]

if tywin freaking lannister, with his daughter the goddamn queen of the seven kingdoms and his grandson in line to inherit the iron throne, CANNOT DISINHERIT tyrion, even though he REALLY would NOT want casterly rock to pass to him,

you bet your bottom dollar that corlys/laenor CANNOT legally & rightfully disinherit baela/rhaena from getting driftmark and pass it on to a bastard (that's not even of their blood!) ‼‼

what they're doing is called "breaking the law" and "an abuse of power" and, frankly, they should be lawfully sanctioned for aiding & abetting rhaenyra in their quest for personal ambition

[lemonhemlock]

https://twitter.com/sanedeshi/status/1634540601441132546?t=5GgXoAtlJUpmp3s62K9htg&s=19

i understand they're upset about how people conveniently call rhaena and baela 'velaryons' despite being daemon's daughters so their surname is actually targaryen

But i do actually want to hear your thoughts on this twitter thread about how the twins being cheated out of an inheritance of Driftmark is false because corlys and laenor already agreed to naming luke heir of driftmark and never renouncing him as a bastard.

(i hope your inbox isn't too full, thank you for being an awesome blogger and giving such thoughtful answers!)

First off, thank you for your appreciation, I am grateful you guys put so much faith in me to provide you with ammunition against these bad takes. 😅

The thing about women inheriting is not that they're prohibited, it's that they just get shoved to the back of the line, but they can and do inherit - remember: a daughter comes before an uncle. So everything about the Velaryon succession goes through Corlys. Laenor is his heir, but he has no true children. So, had Laenor not "died", his inheritance should have gone to Laena, because she is next in line. Laena is not disinherited just because she gets married, lol. Daemon is immaterial in this conversation. Thus, Laena's heir is Baela and, after that, Rhaena. The girls are not skipped just because they're girls or because their father is not a Velaryon, that's not how this happens, it's the law. And, in instances where it does occur, it's a violation of the law (for whatever reason).

I don't know why they keep focusing on the surnames, though, since surname change is not unheard of and even happens in the lore. Joffrey Lidden became King of the Rock after marrying the previous King's daughter and taking the surname Lannister. Even in the show, Corlys and Viserys debate this very issue! Viserys decides that Jace will bear the surname Velaryon until he becomes King, after which he will change his surname to Targaryen. The fact is, had Baela or Rhaena become Lady of Driftmark, they could have just taken Velaryon, their mother's surname. Team black just pretend this option doesn't exist because it contradicts their arguments. But in their quest to defend Rhaenyra, they only end up skipping over other women's inheritance rights (much like Rhaenyra herself).

So let's make a pitstop by our favourite problematic family to see how that looks like in practice. When Tywin dies, Jaime cannot inherit, as he's a Kingsguard. Tyrion is disqualified from inheriting since he's a wanted criminal who committed actual patricide, killing the former Lord of Casterly Rock. Killing someone after whom you stand to inherit is, for obvious reasons, a big no-no. So what happens? Well, my friends, it will come as no shock to learn that Cersei is styled as the new Lady of the Rock in AFFC and ADWD. She is the one who inherits, not Kevan, even though she's a woman, even though she's the queen. She hasn't relinquished it to Kevan, even though she could have. So, if something were to happen to Cersei, Tommen would inherit the Rock from her. A Baratheon. Shock and horror.

Ofc, there are legal subterfuges one could employ, same as with Baela and Rhaena. Tommen could pass over the Rock to Myrcella, since he's the King already and he can't reasonably be expected to fulfill two jobs and it would also be in his interest to keep the Lannisters happy. So a blonde Myrcella who takes on the Lannister surname could be a solution.

Certainly, we, as readers, know that is not going to happen, since they're doomed, so the Rock is going down the family line to Kevan's branch. Kevan is dead and Lancel is doomed, too, but he still has two living children left: Martyn and Janei. Martyn is a squire, so, if he dies in the war, Janei might as well be the next Lady of the Rock. She has to die first before it could pass to Genna's branch of FREYS. That's if GRRM doesn't decide to resurrect Tyrek somehow.

Anyway, to come back to Corlys and Laenor, this is the law and they cannot do as they please without breaking it. That's the long and short of it. It is not textbook legal for you to pick your own heir. Tywin really REALLY wants to disinherit Tyrion and prohibit him from getting the Rock, but he can't, and it makes him real mad. His grandson is King, he has the connections, but it's illegal. Tyrion is only legally disinherited because he kills his own father. So, what Corlys and Laenor want is absolutely irrelevant. You can't disinherit someone just because you don't like them or because you want to. Corlys and Laenor are screwing over their House and their trueborn relatives, Corlys because of his personal vanity and Laenor because he is careless and irresponsible. Laena played by the rules and had legitimate daughters, yet she and their daughters' rights are sacrificed for these two men.

Not to mention that later Corlys prefers to have one of his bastards legitimised instead of letting Driftmark pass to Baela.

[lemonhemlock]

I'll never understand how so mnay people stood on rhaenyras side like you have to have hated your family and your yourself a lot to be doing THAT

the fact that george had so many houses side with her during the dance makes no goddamn sense

matilda & stephen of The Anarchy TM were COUSINS for crying out loud and they fought for how many years? 15? henry i employed the same trick as viserys, trying to convince the lords to accept his daughter as heir and, guess what, he only partially succeed in this endeavour, even though he made them swear oaths as well (!)

the notion that anyone in a medieval setting would look at aegon, who is rhaenyra's BROTHER, and not think he has a better claim than her is preposterous

additionally, if i were a lord and saw how rhaenyra is treating her main political allies, the velaryons, i would nope out so fast, there's no way i'm risking my bacon supporting that whackjob

[lemonhemlock]

Read your post about Rhaenys, and got an unsolicited opinion to offer :-D I have an impression after her own claim being denied she came to an opinion that in Westeros a woman wouldn't be accepted as a ruler (re: her talk with young Rhaenyra), so decided to ensure the best possible marriages for her daughter and then granddaughters. Like this, offering Laena to Vyserys makes sense - she would be queen and maybe regent. Same with Baela and Rhaena: should Rhaenyra be queen and Jace and Luke be the heirs to Iron Throne and Driftmark, Baela and Rhaena would be queen and Lady of Driftmark, respectively. Otherwise Baela (or Rhaena) wouldn't have any shot at the throne. Maybe she also hoped girls would be able to manipulate their husbands and thus have their own power. She seemed not too enthusiastic to support Rhaenyra though, so I have a feeling her going along was a mix of above and Corlys jumping into it. Well, idk how she really felt about the boys though, maybe not that bad? After all Laenor seemed to love them.

I do agree that Rhaenys has become bitter because of her being rejected by the Great Council of 101, hence imparting her pessimistic outlook to young Rhaenyra on the balcony. However, Andal Law was on her side and Westerosi people have respected that and accepted women rulers when Andal inheritance rights are followed. Lady Jeyne is one such example; her contesting cousins are rightfully considered usurpers. The reason Rhaenys didn't become Queen was because Jaehaerys held misogynistic beliefs and actively sabotaged her. Out of all Targaryen princesses in her chronological proximity, she is the one who had the best shot at becoming monarch and the one with the strongest legal claim against her male rivals and anyone else. But if you call a one-off council and give the lords the right to choose however they please, you're disregarding succession law and giving the nobles free reign. It's basically an election; they can vote because they liked the clothes Viserys was wearing, not because they carefully considered the points of law. There is also the possibility that the vote was rigged beforehand.

On the second point: Rhaenys is selling her granddaughters short. She should be pushing for Baela as Queen and Rhaena as Lady of Driftmark, with Luke as her consort. There is this prevailing notion that Rhaenyra is doing the Velaryons a favour by making Baela Queen. Not so. Baela is a noble, trueborn, pureblooded Valyrian girl with a dragon. Not many of those lying around. Rhaenyra should actively want Baela to be Jace's wife, regardless of the Driftmark situation. Rhaenys actually has bargaining powers here, but she's too much of a pushover to use them. She's making a mockery of her husband's house in the process + potentially alienating them & triggering a future defection (if the plot of the Dance had any logic behind it, that is).

As for how she feels about the Strong boys, she seems to mostly ignore them? She doesn't seem happy at all with Laenor's decision to be willingly cuckolded and she makes a point at Laena's funeral to only comfort her granddaughters.

[lemonhemlock]

Curious as to why you think Rhaenys would try to make Laena her heir instead of Laenor if she's been made Queen instead of Viserys? It's pretty different from Rhaenys's own inheritance situation because she didn't have any brothers, and obviously different from Rhaenyra's inheritance situation too?

The truth is that we can't really know either way for sure. Rhaenys is a mysterious character with quite a few contradictions and we never get a glimpse into her thought process.

On the one hand, Rhaenys was the only child of the first son of the sitting king and did indeed have no brothers, so you can make the argument that she was following Andal Law and felt entitled to queenship, because Viserys was only the first son of the second son of the sitting king. So, yes, we can speculate that, perhaps, if Rhaenys had a brother, even a younger one, she would abide still by Andal Law and accept him above her in the line of succession.

On the other hand, if that is the case, then why did she support Rhaenyra as queen? When she was clashing against her own younger brother (Aegon II), whom should have been named king according to the same Andal Law? Of course, you can make the argument that Rhaenys' support was merely circumstantial, as her children had become entangled with Rhaenyra and Daemon.

Unfortunately, these unexplained discrepancies make Rhaenys appear some sort of ideological grifter, like she doesn't seem too preoccupied either by the law of the land (her support for Rhaenyra) or by women's rights as a general concept (her candidacy at the Great Council).

Either way, had she become Queen, she would have been placed in a position where she would have to contemplate how the Crown would pass several generations down the line, too. Being gay, Laenor would have had difficulty in conceiving any child of his own body, so it's possible that Rhaenys' grandchildren by Laenor would have been bastards passed off as trueborn no matter who he married. Whereas Laena was the one child who did provide her with legitimate potential heirs. This would also constitute an additional aspect for her to contemplate when naming her heir - perhaps she would prefer someone who is actually related to her to continue her lineage.

In that case, it is not impossible that she might push for women's inheritance laws and try to propagandize that somehow based on her own experience, even if the legal details are different. At least in her case, her children have the same father and any kerfuffle would not involve two great Houses directly. Also, Laenor is portrayed both in the books and in the show as not really interested in politics or power, so he might be more amenable to ceding his position to his sister.

Again, though, it's very hard to tell with Rhaenys whether she truly is a proto-feminist, is only out for her own interests or is simply Lawful Neutral.

[lemonhemlock]

Your answer to another anon made me think of how i'd explain the whole Aegon-Rhae succession "crisis" to capitalism yankee. If Biden named his daughter his heir and immediately met his maker. Now, normally by law you have to vote. But he, as a ruler, named his daughter heir! so... what it is, law or previous ruling man's wish? what would TB clowns say

In all fairness, there are democratic checks and balances within the American state that, at least so far (*cough*), have ensured the handover of power. These failsafes are absent from Westeros. Biden, for example, does not derive his powers from land ownership or the divine right of kings or his own personal armies or his family's soul-bounded dragons. He operates within a political landscape where he cannot be president for life, nor does he constitutionally have any say at all in who his successor will be - he cannot nominate them, nor conceive them, he can't even propose a candidate, let alone pick between candidates. Neither can a Westerosi king or a lord choose their successor, but they, at least, have a little more leeway in that they generally raise and educate their successor and, in the context of a possible succession crisis, can at least express their preference or offer a solution.

Regardless, coup d'etats certainly exist in contemporary times, as do authoritarian leaders who pass on their prerogatives to their sons, even within states that are formally considered democracies, with or without sham elections, i.e. North Korea, so this scenario is not outside the realm of possibility.

[lemonhemlock]

Ok, in a previous ask about corlys and laenor you said "you can't disinherit someone just because you don't like them or don't want to"

I want to know where the Samwell/Randyll Tarly thing falls? Randyll Tarly basically threatened Sam and coerced him into joining the Night's Watch so that Sam would be removing himself from the line of inheritance. So what Randyll did was legal, because technically Sam "chose" to disinherit himself? It does support what you're saying because Randyll wouldn't have resort to threatening Sam into taking the black if he could just pick and choose which son he wanted to be Lord of Horn Hill.

(Sorry if my rambling doesn't make sense, this clarification is more for my own sake, trying to make sure I understood what you said)

Hello, friend. Yes, exactly. Randyll Tarly forced his son to join the Night's Watch because otherwise he couldn't legally pass him over to ensure Dickon gets Horn Hill. Of course that in our modern legal system coercion is illegal and perhaps technically it would be in Westeros, as well, but it would be very hard to prove in a court of law and I doubt anyone would care enough to go to such lengths to defend Sam's rights. I suppose? he could have petitioned his liege lord, Mace Tyrell, or, failing that, King Robert, but would they really have anything to gain by angering Randyll Tarly, a seasoned military commander and useful as an ally, for this random boy? There's also the practical obstacle of the "hunting accident", so Sam has to either comply or stage some kind of escape and live as a runaway.

[lemonhemlock]

Tag Directory Part 1 [HotD Meta, HotD Characters & Ships, HotD Critical]

HotD Meta

dance of the dragons - for general discussion of the conflict

the anarchy tm - for comparisons to the period in english history

division of houses during the dance of the dragons

succession for the iron throne & asoiaf succession crises

bastardposting

(aemond's) eye gouging, eye gouging trial

HotD Characters

alicent hightower, aegon ii targaryen, aemond targaryen, helaena targaryen, daeron targaryen, otto hightower, criston cole, tyland lannister, alys rivers

anti viserys i targaryen / viserys i targaryen, anti rhaenyra targaryen / rhaenyra targaryen, anti daemon targaryen / daemon targaryen, anti jacaerys velaryon / jacaerys velaryon, anti lucerys velaryon / lucerys velaryon etc

(character tags generally follow this template)

HotD Ships & Dynamics

aegond, helaegon, helaegond, helaemond, alicole, aligon, alimond, helicent, rhaenicent, rhaegon, cristgon

daemicent

riverdragon (for aemond/alys) or anti alysmond for blacklisting purposes

anti daemyra, anti lucemond, based lucemond, greenpilled jacegon, greenpilled lucegon, jaceluke tag

alicent & her children, alicent & aegon, alicent & aemond, alicent & helaena, alicent & daeron, alicent & otto

aegon & aemond

HotD Critical

hotd critical [storytelling], hotd critical [production], hotd critical [speculation], hotd critical [aegon], hotd critical [aemond], hotd critical [helaena], hotd critical [alicent], hotd critical [rhaenyra], hotd critical [daemon], hotd critical [mysaria]

aegon v joffrey

fire and blood critical, fire and blood vol. i

Other

hotd speculation, hotd casting, hotd production

egg 1 = egg 2 crack theory

[lemonhemlock]

Useful Tags

(to be updated)

Please skim through the tags before you ask a question. Chances are I've already answered something to that extent.

HotD Meta

dance of the dragons - for general discussion of the conflict

the anarchy tm - for comparisons to the period in english history

division of houses during the dance of the dragons

succession for the iron throne & asoiaf succession crises

bastardposting

(aemond's) eye gouging, eye gouging trial

HotD Characters

alicent hightower, aegon ii targaryen, aemond targaryen, helaena targaryen, daeron targaryen, otto hightower, criston cole, tyland lannister, alys rivers

anti viserys i targaryen / viserys i targaryen, anti rhaenyra targaryen / rhaenyra targaryen, anti daemon targaryen / daemon targaryen, anti jacaerys velaryon / jacaerys velaryon, anti lucerys velaryon / lucerys velaryon etc

(character tags generally follow this template)

Fire and Blood Characters

dreamfyre rhaena, aegon the uncrowned, maegor i targaryen

ASOIAF Characters

joffrey baratheon

sansa stark

Shipping/Dynamics

aegond, helaegon, helaegond, helaemond, alicole, aligon, alimond, helicent, rhaenicent, rhaegon, aemond/alys, cristgon

anti daemyra, anti lucemond, based lucemond, greenpilled jacegon, greenpilled lucegon, jaceluke tag

cersei/jaime, jonsa

maena (my maegor/dreamfyre!rhaena tag), rhaenaegon (dreamfyre!rhaena/aegon-the-uncrowned)

alicent & her children, alicent & aegon, alicent & aemond, alicent & helaena, alicent & daeron, alicent & otto

aegon & aemond

shipping wars, shipping discourse, asoiaf inc3st tag (inexorably)

HotD Critical

hotd critical [storytelling], hotd critical [production], hotd critical [speculation], hotd critical [aegon], hotd critical [aemond], hotd critical [helaena], hotd critical [alicent], hotd critical [rhaenyra], hotd critical [daemon], hotd critical [mysaria]

aegon v joffrey

HotD/ASOIAF AUs - usually created in collaboration with my anons & visitors

maris, maris baratheon, aemond/maris

female!aemond au, female!aemond/daeron, female!aemond/aegon

female!aegon au, female!aegon/aemond,

female!daeron au, gay!daeron au, gay!daeron/lord lyonel (the otp) daeron au

Other

dragon lore, name lore, hotd fic, asoiaf fic, fandom critical, anti hotd fandom, anti asoiaf fandom, fandom shenanigans

Admin

state of the inbox nation - check to see if anon is off or not

anon is currently off while i make my way through my backlog - for anything answered during moratorium

ask (for answered questions), anon, anon wars (for inbox bloodshed), do i at least remind you of every girl that made you mad?, inbox antagonism (in case you want to filter hate or snippy messages)