#anti rhaenyra

[the-daily-dreamer]

I will never forgive HOTD for making me sit through TWO Rhaenyra births and TWO Rhaenyra weddings…

But never having us see Alicent’s wedding or births. Scenes that would have forced the fans to confront the true reality of how despicable her situation is. It would force viewers to see a child, devastated, as she walks down the aisle to her creepy old man of a husband. It would force viewers to watch a little girl have a child. Completely unprepared and alone, crying for her mother and finding no sympathy. She has no father to protect her. No mother to guide her and comfort her. No husband who cares about her.

It would force team black to stop seeing her as the evil seductress, for even a moment. And see her true vulnerability. See how she doesn’t, and never did, want this. See how these are not consequences of her actions, but instead the consequences of the men around her that she has to suffer for them. Because they don’t care about her. Viserys doesn’t care about her.

These are scenes that are meant to bring sympathy to her character. To give Alicent a reason to be righteously angry at the family and system that broke her down and stole her childhood. It gives Alicent a valid motive to fight aside from fear. And it takes away the chances for team black to deny her suffering at least a little bit.

Because as the current narrative sits, it’s easy to ignore Alicent’s experience and warp it into a much more pleasant story. They see Alicent “seducing” the king and then she is already married. And then she’s pregnant and the babies magically appear. No screaming or crying or bleeding involved. All is good. The teenager definitely didn’t suffer at all. And by doing this some people can’t sympathize as much or they are given allowances to intentionally not sympathize.

Instead. The current narrative allows for Alicent to be the seductress, the crazed woman, the jealous bitch, and the villain. But if we saw what she actually went through. Alone, scared, suffering, neglected, and holding it all in. We would be allowed to see her as she truly is. The victim. Finally crushing under the weight of it all and lashing out.

(And the narrative would be all the better for it because instead of feminist icon team vs crazy trad wife and co (as far as team black sees it), we would have woman fighting against patriarchal narrative for her own claim vs woman fighting against patriarchal narrative to destroy the people who hurt her)

[2rats1gogh]

I’ve never really seen anyone talking about this, but I noticed that one of the main reasons why I am team green is because team green feels like an actual team that is this whole thing together.

Team Green feels connected, united, like a family.

Team Black on the other hand is… meh.

And let me explain why:

Rhaenyra being delusional and thinking that Daemon is actually in love with her when he literally just groomed her since she was a child because he has always been after her title and now wants to be her king consort. They have one of the most toxic, creepy and problematic relationships in the entire fucking show.

Then there is the very awkward and uncomfortable moment of Rhaenyra and Daemon having sex on Laena’s funeral, while Rhaenys, Corlys, Baela, Rhaena and Laenor are mourning the loss of their daughter, mother and sister. How fucking disrespectful is this. And then the fact that they have Laenor “killed” just so they can get married and have their own perfectly blonde targaryen babies.

And Rhaenyra lying about Jace, Luke and Joff to everyone in her very own “team”, trying to gaslight not only Corlys, and Rhaenys but also her own sons into thinking they are trueborn, when even Jace himself. as a child, starts asking questions.

Then there are obviously Rhaenys and Corlys, who for some fucking reason neglected their trueborn granddaughters in favor of some dark haired white bastards their daughter-in-law is trying to pass off as their son’s children. Rhaenys is trying sooo hard to please her misogynistic husband because he so desperately wants his name to go down in history. Then the disrespectful betrothal of Jace and Luke to Baela and Rhaena. Rhaenyra is literally robbing these poor girls of their rightful claim to Driftmark and usurping them. And now, with Luke being dead, Rhaena’s claim dies with him.

Baela and Rhaena losing their mother, and now their father suddenly remarries, and has two blonde boys. Rhaenys losing BOTH her children and then seeing her son-in-law and daughter-in-law getting married soon after that.

Everyone in team black is after their own ambitions. They lie to each other, they don’t trust each other, they suspect each other in different things, they cheat on each other (with each other) and lie about it, they give each other forced ultimatums, and yada yada. All their scenes feel forced, tense, awkward and uncomfortable. They look so miserable with each other.

Team Green in this sense is the exact opposite.

Although their dynamic is far from perfect, obviously, you cannot deny that they care about each other very very deeply.

Alicent loves all of her children, and even while acknowledging their flaws, she still loves them.

Aemond might’ve been a little envious of Aegon, but he would never turn his back on him. He would never betray his brother, be would never try to take his crown from him.

Aegon was far from being a perfect man and king, but, as we know, it was his love for his family, and the fear of them getting hurt that made him a more responsible person and a more protective father, husband and brother. Sure, he is a cheater, but at least he’s honest about it and doesn’t lie to his wife. He is not a hypocrite.

Criston is working for Alicent not for ambition or for self-gain, but because he genuinely loves her, whether it’s romantic or platonic, doesn’t matter.

Helaena would never betray her family, her brothers, her mother. They are all she has. She would never switch sides even if given an opportunity.

And even Otto, arguably one of the main villains of the whole show, still loves his family. Sure, he is ambitious, but he would never become Corlys level of ambitious.

Team Green feels like they are fighting against the enemy all together, they have the same goals, they feel united and you can feel their devotion to each other. Especially after blood and cheese, when they become closer than ever. They’re in this together and only if they stick to each other, they can make it. It feels genuine and honest. They don’t hide anything from each other, they always have their loved ones’ best interests at heart, they would never in a million years betray each other. Yes, they are all doomed from the start, but their dedication and love to each other is truly something else.

[rc1207]

I have seen quite often that many people consider young Alicent to be too sensitive and just an envious/jealous girl. Well...

Daemon almost killed Alicent's brother at the tourney, (he was much younger than him). Gwayne was so badly wounded that even the maester had to personally visit Otto and warn him that his son will live.

Otto and Daemon's relationship has always been tense. Daemon allows himself to insult the memory of Otto's dead wife, in front of EVERYONE at the council.. And I remind you, mother's death is the same trauma for Alicent as for everyone's beloved Rhaenyra whom everyone loves to justify her behavior with the death of her mother. But no one talks about Alicent, even tho she also lost her mother. Alicent loved her very much and she still misses her, praying every day at the sept. Do you think she doesn't know what kind of relationship her father has with Daemon? She knows what a terrible person Daemon is, what frightening violence he is capable of, but she is silent and smiles because he is a prince, he is the brother of the king, and uncle of her best friend. She always has to be silent, polite and patient, just like her father.

Imagine what Alicent felt when she found out that Rhaenyra had slept with a man like Daemon? Betrayal. No, it's not just envy that her "friend" has privileges, it'sdisappointment. To make matters worse, Rhaenyra lied to Alicent, she SWEARS BY HER MOTHER'S GRAVE AND DEATH that she IS TELLING THE TRUTH. Mother. Little Alicent values her words, she values the memory of her mother, she is still grieving, and she believes Rhaenyra.

She even refuses to believe her own father, the closest and dearest person in her life. And for what? Eventually she becomes the reason why her father is kicked out of the Red Keep in disgrace, depriving the status of the king's right hand. She defended Rhaenyra's honor, she justified her, and was left absolutely alone again. No mother, no father.

She feels the bitterness and pain of loneliness in the court, and then this feeling doubles because what she did turns out to be a huge mistake. Her best friend is a liar. From Alicent's perspective, her best friend hooked up with a man who had been at enmity with her father all her life, almost killed her brother, and after Rhaenyra smiles at her as if nothing had happened, and shamelessly scatters words, the consequence of which is the departure of her father.

But yeah, for some stupid reason of course "she's just jealous girl" and nothing more.

[blackcat419]

Nothing hits hard than Alicent saying,

“And now you take my son’s eye and even that you feel entitled too.”

But the direction decides that, “now they see you as you are” is what they hold on. It’s such a weak line and I know Emma is giving it their all but it just doesn’t make sense! They see Alicent as a mother willing to defend her son? Someone who’s not putting up with Viserys’ bullshit?

Alicent should get 10 minutes to attach all of them to her heart’s content with the amount of shit she’s been put through.

[crimsonbastard]

The way people use Aemma Arryn's death to justify the hate Alicent gets needs to studied.

Aemma Arryn was used as a broodmare since a young age, married to a man older than her. She was put through multiple pregnancies, miscarriages and stillbirths against her will and when time came, she didn't even get the dignity to die in her own terms. She was gutted like a pig as she got held down, as she begged Viserys to stop. All because Viserys wanted a Son.

Alicent also marries a man who's far more older, old enough to be her father, the man in question being her childhood companion's father, someone who watched her grow up alongside his daughter. She too goes through multiple pregnancies; anyone of them could've been her last, anyone of them could've resulted in her meeting the same end as Aemma. But she doesn't, she in fact bears Viserys THREE healthy sons. Viserys gets THREE of what he killed his first wife for and he neglects them.

So what's the difference between Aemma and Alicent you might ask? Well according to some TB members Aemma Arryn suffered with class or grace as she fulfilled her queenly duties, like the High Valyrian Queen she is.

A stark contrast to the "Filthy Low Class" Alicent Hightower with her "inferior genetics" who wanted Viserys to give a damn about the kids he had with her. How dare Alicent Hightower want what was the best for her children? Only Rhaenyra gets to do that! How dare she show any agency or ambition instead of sitting in the corner and let the "rightful queen" walk all over her and her children.

How dare she get mad when her son got bullied for not having a dragon? How dare she loose her composure when that same son losses his eye because he got attacked by those same bullies? How dare she attack Rhsenyra the "rightful heir" when she latter asks that her now freshly mutilated son be sharply questioned Why can't she just roll over and die?

[the-loststone]

HotD Team Green Defense

The amount of people who fail to grasp Team Green's perspective is honestly staggering to me. So many people are Team Black, maybe out of some (misplaced) belief that they are being feminists and advocating for female power, or something like that, and choose to ignore the very legitimate worries and motivations of Team Green. Admittedly, the show has gone out of it's way to villainize Team Green as much as possible, while victimizing Team Black, and deviating from the source material for this narrative. (I would tell them to be suspicious when showrunners do that because they did the same thing to Daenerys in GoT and everyone was surprised when she turned around and burned a city down in a rushed ending because the show never properly developed her arc.) Nevertheless, despite their efforts to make Team Green the less appealing side, if I had to compare motivations, Team Black is the more villainous.

So many people dismiss the fact that for Rhaenyra to secure her throne, she would have to kill her siblings. They write it off as paranoia of Alicent, or ambitions of her and Otto, that they are making excuses for Aegon to be made king instead of Rhaenyra. But that's just not true. These are very real likelihoods. Even if Aegon did not seek the throne, or he and his brothers decided to gracefully allow the succession to pass to Rhaenyra, it would never be peaceful. Just look at Rhaenys and how Corlys is still bitter and Viserys has been worried that they may come after him since she has a right to the throne. That's one of the main benefits in having Rhaenyra marry Ser Laenor was to join their claims. Or look at how worried everyone was of Daemon, and how he may seize power after Viserys. The only thing keeping him alive was his brother's love for him, the fact that their house was dwindling, and no one was fighting on his behalf over Viserys. So if there is every another claimant, it would be a great worry that the side in power may be kicked off by another claimant. And Aegon and his brothers are men, and just by virtue of having dicks, they have a better claim to the throne. All laws, precedent, and cultures in Westeros have male heirs before female heirs. The king's word does not change that. And note that the King only made Rhaenyra his heir over his brother. So technically, the King said "all my children first, including my daughter, then my brother." (Something already controversial because if it was accepted before, Rhaenys would be Queen and he would be nothing). But he never again made a statement for the lords after his sons births. He never reinforced Rhaenyra's succession as his heir outside the privacy of their own quarters. Alicent even said, let the lords come and decide, and make vows, and he and Rhaenyra reject it because they worried the Lords would choose Aegon.

Rhaenyra knows, to inherit without rebellions every few years from lords who are unhappy with her and want to supplant her with her brothers, she would have to kill her brothers and make sure there are no people who can contest her right to inherit.

And this is just Rhaenyra's succession. Now add in the fact that she's claiming illegitimate children as her heirs. Very obvious illegitimate children. Even if Rhaenyra managed to successfully inherit with no push back from anyone, and no one wanted to supplant her with her brothers so she didn't have to kill them then... well guess what, she'll have to kill them to secure her son's ascension to the throne. (And if she won't then Daemon certainly would). And then, even if she does kill all the Greens, then there's the issue of her legitimate children vs. her illegitimate children. Even if the kids grew up to love each other, someone may say, well the first three shouldn't inherit, let's put the legitimate ones on the throne. And then you have a completely different succession crisis.

Viserys' actions may seem to the viewers as promoting girl power and feminism, but that's not what's happening. He's being an abusive, neglectful shit. He's deliberately putting the rest of his children's lives in jeopardy, and even the Strong grandchildren he claims to love, because by keeping them in the succession despite their obvious illegitimacy invites people to contest that. And that's not to say he couldn't have taken steps to remedy this. He could have changed the rules so that succession passes to the eldest child, regardless of gender. But he didn't. He could have acknowledged that his grandchildren were illegitimate and forgiven it and legitimized them as Targaryens, but he didn't (conveniently usurping Valeryons - and people may argue that Baela/ Rhaena can still rule being married to Jace/Luke, but that's not the same as being able to rule in your own right, otherwise, why not take the offer for Rhaenyra to marry Aegon).

But since he didn't do any of these things, the only way to stop the Dance would have been for him to make Aegon his successor. Something that everyone would have been relieved by because it would have prevented war. But he didn't. And so, Alicent has to fight to keep her kids alive. The Greens have to push their claim to survive. Whereas, had Rhaenyra graciously backed off her claim, saying that yes, she had 3 brothers, and while they were younger, the laws and precedent are in their corner to inherit, then she would have lived. People wouldn't have fought for her claim if she hadn't pushed it. Nor would they fight for an illegitimate heir.

But some may say... Well Rhaenyra has more supporters. She does. She has the Velaryons and countless other houses backing her. So do the Greens. (the Greens have the wealthiest houses). But once it becomes a fight to throne, it's less about who has the right, and more about who can offer you the most. Notice the Starks and the Baratheons agree to fight because they'll get a wedding out of it (and the Starks because they'll have somewhere to send people during their current famine). The Vale because of the blood ties. The Lannisters because of past insults. Once it's decided to be a fight, it's never about who actually has a right to the throne, it becomes about who can give you the most so you can help them win it.

And this is what it really comes down to. Rhaenyra had a choice. She can back off, and her family can survive. Her brothers can live. Her sons will live. Or she can inherit, and her brothers can die. And she is perfectly willing for her brothers to die. And some may say that that's a very jaded view to take on Rhaenyra and she would never kill her family if she could help it... but it would be out of her hands. It would be necessary to protect her son's right to inherit and to keep away possible rebellions.

And you know, fine, that's okay. She wants to fight for the throne, more power to her. She can go after the throne and kill her brothers. But I don't think it's right that people say that she's the aggrieved party. She's not. She's the aggressor.

And that is why I'm team Green. Because Alicent is right. Just by living and breathing, Aegon and his brothers are threats to Rhaenyra. And this would have happened no matter who Viserys married. Sure people can be upset that Alicent married her bffs dad (something that only happens in the show because in the books, Alicent is 10 years older than Rhaenyra and they weren't close), but that doesn't mean her children should die because Rhaenyra is the preferred child. That doesn't mean the realm should be thrown into war because Alicent 'seduced' a widow. (And I say that with heavy sarcasm because Viserys is a grown ass man.)

And then there's the argument of who's the better house because of blood purity. It's a ridiculous argument and I'm honestly annoyed by people who are Targaryen purists and believe in the whole, dragon supremacy. Hightower is badass house. A lot of people don't realize that they've been around since The Wall and Winterfell were built (Bran the Builder built Hightower, commissioned by the Lord / King of Hightower). They've been around since before Targaryen's rode dragons. So spare me the ridiculous arguments of who's got the most Targaryen blood. If anything, Team Green is more Westerosi, you know, the country they are trying to rule.

In the end, the show will do what it does best, and disappoint you. Either they'll continue pushing this narrative of girl-boss queen and fail to show the complexity of the political situation that result from Rhaenyra's decisions. Or they might stick to the book and have a complex issue actually displayed and show both Aegon and Rhaenyra's descent into madness.

There are more issues one could delve into. Like the fact that Rhaenyra married Daemon. That either Corlys Velaryon has so much unhinged ambition that he's ignored deaths in his house to side with those who have literally murdered his family (cough cough Vaemond and Laenor) (and the whole Laenor excuse in the show makes no sense because no way in hell are Rhaenyra and Daemon risking that he's ever found and that their kids are declared bastards; it is much cleaner for them to do it like they did in the books and kill him) or there will be serious repercussions from the deaths of Velaryons and continued discussion of the succession of Driftmark/High Tide.

But that's the main summary of my thoughts. 👍

If you made it to the end of my rant. Thank you.

[dreamfyre-beautiful]

Yknow what? I agree with Criston Cole.

He shouldn’t say that about Rhae!!- Why not? He’s allowed to dislike ONE woman who was his BOSS.

He shouldn’t bully Rhae’s kids!!- nah he should have bullied them harder. (Also if he was nice the court could say they were HIS kids, putting him in more danger!

He shouldn’t have killed Joffrey or that other guy (I forgot his name 💀)- ight, Daemon shouldn’t have killed Vaemond but y’all cheered that on so idk.

I think he should have been WORSE, I want him pushing the strongs in the dirt and laugh when aegon copies him. I want him to be disgusted by Rhaenrya, Daemon, and Viserys; to fight back a gag when he has to be near viserys, to use his power as a kings guard to be an asshole to those under him cuz he’s alicents favorite.

Melt him be a lil brat he deserves it.

[wishesofeternity]

how interesting that when Rhaenyra looks at a maimed boy whose eye was gouged out by her own son and says "he must be sharply questioned" (aka tortured) for repeating things about her that she knows are 100% true, and when Alicent is horrified that an insult to Rhaenyra (which is, again, 100% true) is considered more important than her son literally being maimed and whose broken skin is currently being stitched up as they speak, Viserys chooses to support Rhaenyra. He walks up to his bleeding brutalized son and orders him to tell him where he heard such lies. He offers him no comfort or reassurance as a father, just an order. "Your King demands an answer."

(and frankly, he expected them to say Alicent. Look at the way he looked at her. He was almost expectant. He wanted her to be condemned)

and both of them prove completely unwilling to obey him. they look at this piece of deadbeat shit right in the eye and say: "We know, Father. Everyone knows. Just look at them."

And now that the accusation has turned back to Rhaenyra, does Viserys choose to listen and do something about it? does he? no, lol.

Instead he declares: "This terrible infighting must cease. We are family." How convenient. how fucking convenient. when Rhaenyra wanted justice (aka the further torture of a maimed kid for telling the truth) Viserys is fully willing to indulge her. He wasn't Aemond's family when he questioned him: he said it himself, tell me by the order of your King. But when his children refuse to listen to him, when the issue turns back to Rhaenyra? We're all family, let's reconcile and put this behind us :)

and that is when Alicent asks Viserys for justice of her own.

just look at Alicent's tone. Rhaenyra was the one who flat-out demanded that Aemond be questioned. Alicent isn't demanding anything, she is pleading. You think she cares about taking Luke's eye? (just minutes later, it's Rhaenyra she goes after. and when Larys asks her flat out if she wants him to do the deed for her, she tells him that it won't be necessary). Look at what Alicent says after this: "He is your son, Viserys. Your blood." This fucking asshole has raped her and abused her, and she is begging him to at least care about his children with her. And he does not.

He displays, for the whole court to see, that he does not give a fuck about his wife and their children. His young son has been horrifically maimed, but shielding and coddling his adult daughter from completely justified "accusations" is what he is most concerned about.

"This matter is finished," Viserys says. And right after? "Anyone whose tongue dares question the birth of Princess Rhaenyra's sons should have it removed." So essentially: the matter is over, everyone should make goodwill, but his precious daughter is always right and will always be his first priority. partly to soothe his own guilt over murdering his previous wife, and partly because Rhaenyra is a Targaryen which, to him, will always make her more worthy than Alicent.

and so it is his wife and other children - including the one who is bleeding in the same damn room - who pay the price for that

And thus, all of Alicent's well-founded fears about the life of her children and herself if Rhaenyra takes the throne are completely solidified. She and Rhaenyra do not share equal culpability for this conflict in the show, because Rhaenyra begins by fighting for power and Alicent begins by fighting for survival. The blame is fundamentally unequal.

you CANNOT tell me that Alicent was unjustified in how she reacted. you CANNOT tell me that she wasn't 100% right in grabbing that knife and going right to Rhaenyra (to rhaenyra! not to luke), demanding justice.

"and now you take my son's eye, and to even that you feel entitled" She is right. She is absolutely right. (She has no idea how right she is, actually, because that entitlement will lead directly to Rhaenyra's downfall someday)

Alicent Hightower finally snapped. GOOD FOR HER.

[homielander]

i am still extremely frustrated that "supporting rhaenyra = feminism" is the depth of the hotd writers' understanding on the subject. rhaenyra has not done a thing for other women apart from useless posturing ("when i am queen i will create a new order" and then denying baela driftmark at first opportunity) whereas alicent has actively stuck her neck out for other women -- by defending rhaenyra's claim to her father, other nobles, and even a doubtful viserys, all at the detriment of her own position; by convincing viserys that rhaenyra should be able to marry whomever she chooses; and by offering rhaenys and her granddaughters driftmark. i'm not delusional enough to label alicent a feminist but i would argue she comes much closer to being one than rhaenyra and rhaenys, who have done nothing but wallow in self-pity (actually rhaenys has done far worse) despite having a much greater capacity to enact change.

my question is, why should alicent support rhaenyra? before the time jump, alicent marrying viserys left the two estranged for years, and when they were on the verge of reconciliation, rhaenyra convinced alicent of a lie that got otto (her only remaining family member) sent away, leaving alicent alone at court without even the courtesy of a heads-up from her husband or former friend. after the time jump, rhaenyra only broached the idea of a marriage alliance as a last resort. she suggested torturing alicent's freshly-mutilated son and actively tried to implicate alicent in high treason. i can almost certainly say rhaenyra never said sorry for anything over the 10-year and 6-year time jumps considering alicent folded in like 30 seconds at the dinner when rhaenyra finally apologized and deigned to acknowledge that alicent was singlehandedly managing both the realm and viserys while she was off in dragonstone doing whatever.

(also, alicent's offences towards rhaenyra don't compare in my opinion -- the show made it pretty clear that alicent talking about the dubious parentage of rhaenyra's first three children was confined to closed doors, alicent never asked criston (and seriously, the courtyard incident is very much on harwin too) or larys to do what they did, and rhaenyra was the one to lend the bastard allegations credence by admitting them aloud in a room full of nobles at driftmark. alicent wasn't the source of those rumours by any means. "everyone knows. just look at them." of course there's the vaemond hearing but that comes after everything above ^)

all that being said, i honestly don't see why the contrived prophecy nonsense was necessary. i think alicent very well could have had an arc of personal empowerment where she decided after viserys's death to finally put her family and herself first, even if that came at the expense of rhaenyra and her claim. "have you ever imagined yourself on the iron throne" is a neat line and all, but it ignores that the only way a woman like alicent feasibly could have seized power is by putting her son (an actual claimant) forward as the successor. (after all, both f&b and hotd make it pretty clear that if not for the war, aegon would have been king in name only with alicent and otto ruling in his stead.) and we can't ignore that rhaenyra has never actually done anything to help secure other women's succession, so alicent wouldn't be making these moves to diminish women in general -- just rhaenyra.

of course you can have a conversation about how alicent working against the first female heir is a negative for women as a whole, but the point is it wouldn't be alicent's intention to work against women, just as it isn't rhaenyra's intention to work for them. i think there was a lot of potential for an interesting story here -- two women securing power only for themselves, but one operates within the system and one operates entirely outside of it -- but that obviously requires more nuance than the hotd writers were willing to allow either side. instead we get margaret thatcher effectively utilizing girlpower and the perpetual victim who's shown being sexually assaulted twice on screen as a punishment for not being able to bust out of her own prison with the dragon she doesn't have.

[aegons-queen-rhaella]

"Half Hightowers will never be REAL Targaryens"...That is such bullshit

I see some team black fanboys and girls on Twitter and other places like Reddit and tiktok making absolutely idiotic statements like "children born from Hightower and Targaryen parents are never going to be true Targaryens"... what the fuck are you talking about? Of course, they are real Targaryens (if a bastard is born from it they are still half-Targ and can obviously claim a dragon).

If they want to continue with this same logic their home girls Rhaenys, Rhaena, and Baela aren't real Targaryens either cause they only have one Targ parent. Rhaenys is half Baratheon and B&R are half Velaryon but wait that same logic also includes, you guessed it! Rhaenyra! For those that do not know, Rhaenyra is half Arryn. Her grandfather on her mother's side is Arryn.

This logic also includes Rhaenyra's bastards. It seems like House Targaryen is full of "not real Targaryens". Members of team black did not think things through when they made statements like that or did and will do double aerials and triple axles to omit team black from their ideas.

If we want to be honest and use this the only "real" Targaryens were children like Maegor.

[the-daily-dreamer]

The targaryen ruled 130 years without dragons. And the most capable kings were all targaryen. After them it was a decline for the throne. Robert, joffrey, tommen, cercei were all sith ruler .

I see targ stans are investing in high quality air to fill their heads lol

But anyways. “The most capable kings were all targaryens”. You know who else were targaryens? The worst rulers of Westeros. Robert, Cersei, Joffrey, and Tommen aren’t even close to the worst kings and queen to rule. And bringing them up as evidence to show that the targaryens are good is so disingenuous.

Maegor the Cruel, Aegon the Unworthy, The Mad King Aerys, Rhaenyra (yes, I know that’s controversial), and Daenerys (yes, I know that’s even more controversial) are all far FAR worse than anyone you mentioned.

Maegor killed his wife and her entire family. He was a usurper (apparently it’s good when the targs you like do it lol), a kinslayer (also a thing only good when it’s targs you like doing it), raped and tortured many people, wiped out entire houses, killed any and everyone that he saw in any way as deserving, and created a huge war with the faith of the seven.

Aegon the unworthy was corrupt and lazy and legitimized his bastards leading to the blackfyre rebellions that led to endless bloodshed for 5 generations.

Aerys was so bad he had a rebellion staged against him that ended his family dynasty. He burned fathers and sons together. He tortured people and burned them alive. He abused and raped his wife when he would burn people alive. He wanted to kill the entire city of kings landing.

Rhaenyra (who like it or not went down in history as one of the worst rulers) known as maegor with teats taxed her people to starvation. She had daily executions. She had knights inquisitors hunt down and punish people.

Daenerys burnt down kings landing, was complicit in the rape and enslavement of hundreds, ruined city economies so badly slavery was a better option, then profited from said slavery, abandoned the people she conquered (no doubt ensuring they will be enslaved much more harshly after supporting her), raped a “free” slave that she admits still acted like a slave because that’s all she knew, oh yeah and again, SHE BURNT DOWN KINGS LANDING. And this is after the people you listed.

And this isn’t including non Targaryen rulers that ruined lives like the blackfyres. Or rulers that are bad but weirdly beloved like Aegon I who basically conquered people by threatening to kill them and everyone they loved, subjugating a country for hundreds of years.

The best rulers I admit were Targaryens. But that’s because they were the only rulers save for 4 people. Of those four, two were bad and two were incompetent. Not nearly the sadistic “mad” people I described above. And funnily enough, as soon as a Targaryen came back to power…things got worse again. Funny how that is.

Oh and by the way. Going with the histories of Westeros. Guess who is among the best rulers according to small folk Aegon II and Alicent. Seethe :)

[2rats1gogh]

“Jace, Luke and Joffrey weren’t usurpers, Corlys named them his heirs!”

Okay but Robert Baratheon also named Joffrey his heir, because he thought he was his son. But that doesn’t make Joffrey any less of an usurper, does it? Pretty much anyone who has seen the show considers Joffrey an usurper, because everybody fucking knows he has no claim to the throne.

[rc1207]

I want to share my thoughts about Otto's and Alicent relationship, probably controversial because I haven't seen anything about them.

yes, he is ambitious, yes, he is an intriguer. yes, he even manipulated Alicent, but still, Otto loves her.

this is noticeable by the way he tries in every possible way to comfort her, hugging her tightly and soothing her. Otto is literally Alicent's only support besides her children, she herself says this in a conversation with Larys, complaining that if her father were with her, he would support her. at times when she feels lonely in the whole court, father is the first person she thinks about.

when she says that Otto used her as a pawn, Otto replies that he made her a queen. that is, he means that first of all he tried to improve her status and his family as a whole.

Rhys Ifans (Ottos actor) himself confirms this, saying that Otto cares about his daughter, but he doesn't always know how to express this love, instead preferring actions — a successful position in society. Otto believes that this is the best thing he can do for her, to give her absolute power and strength in all Seven Kingdoms.

when he was kicked out of the capital, he didn't lie to Alicent. think for yourself, wouldn't you have the thought that you are in danger when there is a person like DAEMON and RHAENYRA TARGARYEN around?

even if Rhaenyra had not tried to kill Alicent's kids, Daemon would have done it, and as we see in the last episode where he's not particularly eager to obey his wife, he would definitely have acted against her will. and the situation with the eye where Rhaenyra demanded the torture of the child, and then "Blood and cheese" only proves it. and people then think that Otto's words about the threat to the life of Alicent and her family were manipulation? he was only telling the truth. and thank god Alicent believed him. many of Otto's actions are driven by the idea that he is only seeking the best for his family, even though in the end it led them all to death. he's still terrible father tho... but anyways, I LOVE OUR GREEN GRANDPA.

[gojuo]

Rhaenyra is literally the embodiment of the privileged racist white liberal feminist who only cares about her rights and hers alone this is why HBO trying to make her Daenerys 2.0 was one of the worst decisions they have ever made

the way this fandom has gaslighted itself into believing as if rhaenyra fights for social justice when she:

is openly racist against the one black girl in the entire story (and that's the reason why the show raceswapping the Velaryons is soo evil hehdhdhdj)

is openly homophobic towards laenor and says he's a pedophile for being gay (show changed this to her being a motherfuckin Ally™️ LMFAOAOOOOOO)

literally usurped not one, not two, not three, but FOUR WOMEN out of their inheritence 😂😂😂🤣😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣

Lord help me this fandom is beyond finished

[crimsonbastard]

Not people comparing Harwin Strong to Criston, and how he's the better man.

My brother in Christ, Harwin had no problem in becoming Rhaenyra's side-piece, He's the eldest son of the Hand of the King, the commander of the City Watch and will inherit Harrenhal. Man was pretty much set for life.

Cole had nothing to his name. He fought and clawed his way into the Kingsguard and he's the only one with real Battle Experience. The White Cloak is his life's achivement. Becoming a Kingsgaurd was his defining moment.

"Low-born Knight fought his way into becoming a member of the Kingsguard"

Has an Underdog ring to it doesn't it? Now imagine, Criston has no material possessions to his name. No family in higher places, no family seat in general, the white cloak being the only thing to his name. His entire identity, hinged on a position that he fought tooth and nail for.

We can have the entire discussion of whether Criston wanted it or whether it was coercion or not on another day. My Point being Criston besmirched his white cloak by doing the deed with Rhaenyra. He broke his oath of celibacy, to him, he's now less of a Kingsguard than the likes of Harrold Westerling. His entire identity was shattered once he realised that the princess only wanted him to be her side-piece and there wasn't anything more to it.

It's more than enough to send anyone spiralling down into madness and have their mind clouded with hate.

Criston, calling Rhaenyra a spoiled c*nt doesn't have anything to do with her sex. It's about him remembering her as the person who not only bestowed to him, his dearest achievement, but also taking it away and in exchange, offering him a position that is personally degrading to him, that too without any concern of how it affected him as a whole.

[thelandswemadeofpaper]

I am adding antis and pro of both in the tags just cuz i want to see their opinions!