#succession crises of westeros

[hollowwhisperings]

The Real Housewives of Westeros: Wives & Widows Frey

I saw the Joke and Ran With It. Most of these women exist as Names Only, few having much in the way of Personal Biography. I have "Made Do", when plausible, by connecting them to Each Other &/or to Better Known Characters. As their ages are generally Not Given (or are of Ridiculous Range), feel free to HC them as the Reality TV Stars of Your Choosing: my knowledge of such shows ends with their having Fun Titles & Dubious Authenticity.

CW: spoilers on canoical character deaths (TWoW excerpts included), reference to the Red Wedding ("RW"), implications of infidelity (& thus in-setting slutshaming), mentions of canonical cousin-incest (& occasional debunkings thereof), casual speculation on Theories of Varying Degrees of Crackiness (largely shoved into As Yet Unposted "Footnote" Posts but I may have Missed Some).

The (As Yet Unwidowed) Housewives of House Frey

• Lady Joyeuce Erenford of the Crossing, b. 282/283 AC (17). The 8th & current wife of Lord Walder Frey (92). Pregnant, allegedly by "Black" Walder (a great-grandson of her husband). Expectant Widow.

• Janyce Hunter, wife of Edwyn Frey (Heir Apparent of Lord Walder Frey). Mother of Walda (9~10, 2nd in line to inherit The Twins). Expectant Widow & Prospective Bride of "Black" Walder Frey (...assuming he doesn't claim his Nieces as his bastards, delegitimizing them all). Of unknown relation to the current Lord Hunter of Longbow Hall (while a Rosby-Frey does serve as that Castle's Maester, Janyce married into the Royce-Freys).

• Deana Hardyng, wife of Walton Frey (a character in Name-Only). Mother of Steffon "the Sweet" (20~40), "Fair" Walda (19/20) & Bryan (9~19, a squire). Of unknown relation to Ser Harrold Hardyng, likely an aunt or cousin.

• Lady Genna Lannister of Riverrun (55), wife of Lord Emmon Frey (RW participant). Only sister of the late Lord Tywin Lannister & a maternal figure to his 3 children. Mother of Ser Cleos (killed pre-RW), Ser Lyonel (27~32, likely RW participant), Tion (murdered pre-RW) & "Red" Walder (15, a page at Casterly Rock). Goodsister of Perriane Frey. Expectant Widow (by her own husband, no less!).

• Melesa Crakehall, wife of Ser Lyonel Frey (likely participant in the RW). Without issue. Her husband is 3rd in line to inherit Riverrun & 15th in line to inherit The Twins. Goodsister of Jeyne Darry. Of unknown relation to Shiera Crakehall (wife of Ser Damion Lannister, the current castellan of Casterly Rock), Lord Roland of Crakehall (for whom both Merrett Frey & Ser Jaime Lannister squired in their Begrudgingly Shared Childhood) or the late Lady Amarei Crakehall (3rd wife of Lord Frey). Her husband is of the Royce-Freys (the line of Lord Walder by his 1st wife, Perra Royce), Just In Case you were Worried.

• Ryella Royce, wife of Ser Arwood Frey (a Schrodinger's RW participant). Mother of Ryella (6), twins Androw & Alyn (4) & Hostella (~1). Probably a daughter of Lord Yohn Royce & thusly the "Goodsister" of Ser Mychel Redfort. Of unknown relation to the late Perra Royce and her line of Royce-Freys. Her husband is of the Crakehall-Freys, just in case you were Worried.

• Lady Lythene Frey, wife of Lord Lucias Vypren (RW participant). Mother of Elyana (19~37) & Ser Damon (18~36). Goodsister of Bellena Hawick, Betharios of Braavos, Wynafrei Whent, Lady Mariya Darry, Carolei Waynwood & Beony Beesbury. Likely RW Conspirator.

• Elyana Vypren (19~37), wife of Ser Jon Wylde (probable RW participant). Mother of Rickard (5).

• Betharios of Braavos, wife of Symond Frey (RW participant). Mother of Alesander the Singer (19~27), Alyx (18) & Bradamer (11, ward of a Braavosi merchant). Possible spymaster. Both her husband & eldest child have Disappeared: her son from the RW, alongside Olyvar & Ser Perwyn; her husband was last seen leaving White Harbour for Barrowton on a gifted palfrey*. As ever, I have Theories (noted far below, in Footnotes): notably, to me, none of her children are named for Lord Walder (a good guide on Which Freys have Ambitions, generally speaking).

• Wynafrei Whent, wife of Ser Danwell Frey (RW participant). Without issue, to the distress of them both. Of unknown relation to the Late Ladies: Sarya (5th wife of Lord Frey, one of Danwell's step-mothers), Shella (last Lady of Harrenhal), or Minisa Whent (mother of Catelyn, Lysa & Edmure Tully). She & her husband are guests at Castle Darry.

• Lady Walda Frey of the Dreadfort, b. 283/284 AC (16). Wife of Lord Roose Bolton (key engineer of the RW & Murderer of King Robb). Pregnant & Rightfully Terrified: the latest Victim in the Winterfell Murder Mysteries was her brother, "Little" Walder Frey (9), & she's been living with Ramsay Bolton. The Safety of the pregnant Lady Bolton is Motive for the Darry-Freys to "Turncloak" on their kin or, at least, Houses Bolton & Lannister. A Certain Northern Spymaster (recent escapee of the Boltons of Winterfell), may prove "Helpful" in this regard... assuming Littlefinger or an Envoy of "Aegon Targaryen" don't beat him to it.

• Beony Beesbury, wife of Ser Raymund Frey (murderer of Lady Catelyn Tully of Winterfell). Mother of Robert (17, an acolyte of the Citadel), Malwyn (16, an apprentice alchemist in Lys), the twins Serra & Sarra (15), Cersei "Little Bee" (7), & the twins Jaime & Tywin (<1). Her having "twin" sets of twins whilst living at "The Twins" likely aided in Inspiring the Ambitions of her husband & (presumably) herself. Of unknown relation to the late Jeyne Beesbury (wife of Rhaegar Frey of the Royce-Freys) or Lord Warryn Beesbury of Honeyholt.

• Leonella Lefford, wife of "Lame" Lothar Frey (key engineer of the RW). Mother of Tysane (8), Walda (5), Emberlei (3) & Leana (~1). Of unknown relation to Lady Alysanne Lefford of Golden Tooth. Goodsister of Sallei & Sylwa Paege, of Morya & Tyta "the Maid" Frey. Her involvement in her husband's [war crimes] is Unspecified but she does have a daughter named "Walda".

• Sallei Paege, wife of Ser Jammos Frey (RW participant). Mother of "Big" Walder (9) & the twins Dickon & Mathis (6). Likely a sister of Sylwa Paege (entry below Sallei's though I suspect Sylwa is the elder of the two). Of unknown relation to Ser Halmon (last known Head of House Paege) or Ser Robert (friend of Edmure Tully) Paege.

• Sylwa Paege, wife of Ser Whalen Frey (RW participant). Mother of Hoster (13) & "Merry" Frey (12). Likely a sister of Sallei.

• Morya Frey, wife of Ser Flement Brax (RW participant). Mother of Robert (10), Walder (7) & Jon (4).

• Roslin Frey (18), wife of Edmure Tully. Traumatised Bride of The RW. Currently a Pregnant Hostage of the Lannister-Freys of Riverrun. Goodsister of the late Ladies Stark & Arryn. Part of the Conditions for Ser Jaime's success in lifting the Siege of Riverrun was the Safe Reunion of Edmure & Roslin... as hostages in Casterly Rock (after she gives birth). Known to pray for a girl (lest a son get Immediately Murdered).

• The Schrodinger's Mother of Walder Haigh, presumably the living wife of Ser Harys Haigh (RW participant). "Exists" due to Walder (5) being of Legitimate birth; does not Exist due to her lacking any indication whatsoever of being Alive (or Dead).

The (Current) Widows Frey

• Mylenda Caron, b. 258~266 AC (34~42). Widow of Petyr Frey (RW participant). Mother of Perra Frey (6), 4th in line to inherit The Twins. Prospective bride of "Black" Walder, assuming he doesn't wed her Goodsister, delegitimize both their children (& their mothers with them) or, y'know, just Kills Them All (a fear of Edwyn Frey's). Potential claimant to Nightsong, where a Ser Rolland Storm is Lord (by the decree of King Stannis, due to the deaths of his Lord Father & legitimate half-brother) though their exact relation is unknown.

• Jeyne Darry, widow of Ser Cleos Frey (killed prior to the RW). Mother of "Ty" (12, heir of Riverrun), & Willem (10, a page at Ashemark). Goodsister of Melessa Crakehall (wife of Ser Lyonel of the Royce-Freys) & the Crakehall-Freys (children of Lord Walder by the late Amarei Crakehall, her relation to Melessa being unknown) through her elder sister, Lady Mariya Darry. Resents being "displaced" in the inheritance of Castle Darry (despite her rather comfortable position as the Future Regent of Riverrun).

• Perriane Frey (50's), widow of Ser Leslyn Haigh (RW participant). Eldest daughter of Lord Walder (by the late Perra Royce). Mother of Ser Harys (17~49), Ser Donnel (16~48) & Alyn (9~47, a squire). At least 2 of her sons participated in the RW. 22nd in line for The Twins. The relation of Lord Yohn Royce to the late Perra Royce (& thus the Royce-Freys) is unspecified.

• Zhoe Blanetree, widow of Ser Tytos Frey (killed outside the RW). Mother of Zia (15) & Zachery (13, student at the Sept of Oldtown). Goodsister of Kyra Frey.

• Kyra Frey (30-40's), widow of Ser Garse Goodbrook (RW participant). Daughter of Ser Jared Frey by his cousin, the late Alys Frey. Mother of Walder (10) & Jeyne (7).

• Bellena Hawick, widow of Ser Hosteen Frey (RW participant, killed in TWoW?). Mother of Ser Arwood (18~40). Goodsister of the Crakehall-Freys. Probable guest at Castle Darry.

• Lady Mariya Darry. Widow of Merrett Frey (RW participant). Mother of "Gatehouse" Ami (18), "Fat" Walda (17), Marissa (15) & the late "Little" Walder Frey (9). She & her children are Directly Responsible for my gaining An Interest in the Intrigues of the Frey Civil War.

• Lady Amerei Frey of Castle Darry (18). Eldest daughter of Lady Mariya Darry by the late Merrett Frey (RW participant). Twice-married & newly single, whomever wins Ami's Hand in Matrimony shall have Lordship (of Castle Darry). Her Loyalties & Tracts of Land are Actually Rather Important**, plot-wise.

• Carolei Waynwood, widow of Ser Geremy Frey ("drowned"). Mother of Sandor (14, a squire) & Cynthea (9, a ward at Iron Oaks). Probably a daughter of Lady Anya Waynwood, given her children's places within Lady Waynwood's Household. Both children are in attendance for the upcoming Tourney of the Winged Brotherhood at the Gates of the Moon (held for Lord Robert Arryn by the suggestion of "Alayne Stone"). If she yet lives, Carolei is likely sheltering with her Goodsisters at Castle Darry.

• Jyana Frey, widow of her cousin Ser Benfrey Frey (RW participant). Mother of "Deaf" Della (4) & Osmund (3). Goodsister of Roslin Frey.

Footnotes (links to Elaborated Tinhattery)

*Betharios of Norvos & Frey Pies: "They Were Ahorse". [Post upcoming].

**"Gatehouse Ami" & the Gate Next Door: How Wooing Darry Could Win Conquest of Westeros. [Post upcoming].

[daenerysoftarth]

Not to defend Rhaenyra again, but when people say that she was ‘stupid’ for having kids with Harwin, their misunderstanding of Westerosi politics really shines through for a couple of reasons

(1) Many people say ‘oh well she shouldn’t have had kids.’ This is pretty ridiculous considering the stability of the realm is considered to rest on the ability of the heir to have kids. If an heir doesn’t have kids to directly succeed them, it can launch succession crises. Even if the realm considers Aegon II as her heir, it still makes Rhaenyra’s political position much more vulnerable. If she has no direct heirs, she is much easier to eliminate in order to install their preferred monarch as heir. Considering book!Alicent is advocating for Aegon II to become Viserys’ direct heir—passing over Rhaenyra—and becomes cold with Rhaenyra when Viserys refuses, I imagine Rhaenyra knew full well that it was a distinct possibility that she might be deposed if she didn’t have heirs of her own. Even with show!Rhaenyra, it’s shown that Tyland Lannister, Otto Hightower, and Criston Cole have all been colluding for quite some time before Viserys’ death to install Aegon II as king. If Rhaenyra had no children of her own, it would’ve made it even easier for them to accomplish this. Not to mention, it would look bad for her on a personal level, as she may be thought of as barren (which would make future marriage pacts difficult) or cold to her husband.

2. To this many say, ‘Well she should’ve found someone who looks more like her husband.’ This is particularly ridiculous. In both the show and book, Laenor has the Valyrian look of white hair and purple eyes. The Targaryen’s roots of Valyria make them unique to the lords of Westeros, as only Houses Velaryon and Celtigar can also claim Valyrian heritage. And unlike the Velaryons, the Targaryens have dragons. In large part it is the dragons that set the Targaryens apart from Westeros, but their slightly alien look definitely adds to that air of exceptionalism that the Targaryens thrive on to maintain their power. This is all to say that finding individuals that have the same Old Valyria traits is extremely difficult. We know this because it’s specifically noted that when King Aerys II was searching for possible wives for Rhaegar Targaryen, he specifically sought suitors with the Targaryen look in Westeros. When that failed, he even went to Essos to search for a woman of noble birth to become Rhaegar’s wife, so as to ensure the inheritance of white haired, purple eyed offspring. Aerys failed to find a match in both Westeros and Essos. It was only after searching in these two continents that he agreed to marry Rhaegar to Elia Martell, because of her distant Targaryen ancestor, princess Daenerys Targaryen. Finding someone who ‘looks like Laenor’ would be no easy feat, much less someone who has access to Rhaenyra and whose presence would not attract immediate suspicion.

3. Which leads me to my last point. People sometimes say, ‘They should’ve tried for a baby anyways.’ In the books, at least, it’s said that Laenor is the one that spurns Rhaenyra. To this I say, should she have sexually assaulted him so as to procure an heir? Additionally, the Middle Ages understanding of sex and procreation was much more primitive compared to our own. Some royals didn’t even know that intercourse was required to have a child, such as King Louis and Marie Antoinette. Those who did understand weren’t sure what factors helped conceive a child and what did not. Something like ‘semen contains sperm which is used to fertilize the egg’ was not something that was known to people at the time. Therefore, the suggestion of using a turkey baster to artificially impregnate Rhaenyra are laughable. As for the couple themselves, it’s entirely possible that Laenor simply inserted himself into Rhaenyra, lay there for what he thought was an appropriate amount of time, and then withdrew without ejaculation. It may sound ridiculous, but I’ll also remind you that it was thought for a time that jumping backwards and sneezing after sex was thought to be a sufficient form of contraception in parts of medieval Europe.

All of this is to say that, in my opinion, Rhaenyra made the best of a difficult situation. It wasn’t ideal, but the alternatives were worse. And we shouldn’t shame a woman for what amounts to nothing more than having sex outside of marriage.

[agentrouka-blog]

What if Aerys succeeded in blowing up Kings landing?

Hi anon!

I know you sent this before, but the reason I haven't answered yet is because it's such a huge departure from canon that it's hard to speculate for me.

It's not just the number of characters who would die (potentially even Ned and Tywin with their respective armies) but that's a conflagration made of a city of half a million people that effectively obliterates the basis of Targaryen monarchy. A city, a port, all the wealth generated and stored there - poof, gone. That's a cursed spot, who will dare to rebuild there in the near future?

There's no throne left to take over, so instead of Robert becoming king, Westeros may be scrambling to decide whether to keep the monarchy going entirely, leading to a very volatile political situation for the following years, likely including wars and succession crises.

There are so many unpredictable variables, it's all wide open.

[bohemian-nights]

Episode 10 after Daemon chokes Rhaenyra and she says “he never told you? Did he?” Then tries to laugh it off makes me wanna punch her like Rhaenyra if it looks a like duck and quacks like a duck it’s a duck. Oblivious he didn’t fucking tell him like what?? And people say she was a bad ass for laughing it’s just sad how delulu people say about team black and Rhaenyra like it’s so bad

That scene really shows that they aren’t close like that. You mean to tell me that in the six years they’ve been married she not once brought up this oh some important prophecy that details the very fate of Westeros and the reason why Rhaenyra(or her line or whatever) is ordained to be its savior🙃

She not once thought to bring it up? She never questions why her husband hasn’t brought it up?

She does not know her husband all that well and she doesn’t share much with him either.

The only thing they probably do is have dry a** sex where Rhaenyra disassociates and pretends she’s back with Harwin and Daemon pretends he’s balls deep in Viserys backdoor 🤣, thus creating more succession crises waiting to happen, and talk sh*t about the greens🤷🏽‍♀️

Her gloating over her husband in this way is so weird. How anyone thinks she would make a good queen when she’s stuck on Nanana, daddy loved me better than you mode boggles the mind.

[alicent-apologist]

Something's Coming - Jacaerys III

So spoilers for the latest chapter of 'Something's Coming', Jacaerys III.

Lots of conversation in the comments about why the Starks have chosen neutrality here instead of joining Team Black, which is sooo fun to read but I thought it might be easier to do a post here instead of individually answering (which I will also do!)

Jacaerys has not left Winterfell yet!

In this world, the Greens have been feeding a lot of anti-Rhaenyra and anti-Daemon propaganda into the world of Westeros, which was not mentioned in Fire and Blood or House of the Dragon.

Rhaenys storming the Dragonpit and killing all the smallfolk for no good reason has also not helped Team Black's cause.

House Baratheon has taken credit for killing Lucerys, not Aemond. So only Team Black has 'kinslayers' on their side.

Blood and Cheese was awful in Fire and Blood, and was a really bad look for Team Black. But crucially, in Fire and Blood, the Blood and Cheese plot succeeded. It took Helaena and Dreamfyre out of action and showed that Aegon II couldn't protect his own children in his own Keep - a huge, huge weakness.

Also, I think Ned Stark, and the current generation of Starks in A Song of Ice and Fire, do a LOT of the heavy lifting in making the Starks seem like an honourable house. In actuality, Ned learnt his deep sense of honour from Jon Arryn and House Arryn, whose words are 'As High as Honour'. The Starks were known as 'wolf-blooded', completely destroyed the Greystarks and and had their own succession crises because of individual ambitions and greed. Yes, they were an honourable house, but they weren't Ned Stark honourable until Ned Stark.

So I think it is fair to say that Cregan Stark chose which side to follow based on his own ambition instead of making the 'honourable choice'. Which is what he did in 'Fire and Blood' - he chose the side that offered him a marriage for his future child and it had nothing to do with Rhaenyra herself.

But I'd love to hear what you think!

[magical-girl-coral]

Here are plot points that could be used for an enemies queens to lovers Daensa fic other than “they like the same boy who happened to be related to them both, lol” :

1. Pressure from the Northern Lords: Look, chances are the current lords are sick and tired of being under the mercy of southerners. They are constantly humiliated by the iron thrones, half of them were either killed or just freed from being held hostage, and with Sansa being the queen in the north, she will be under a lot more pressure to meet their standards. So when a southern Targaryen queen comes from over the sea to meet them, with her family’s legacy, I doubt the current men would like to give her a warm welcome, which unfortunately means Sansa will have to be more cold to her thanks to peer pressure. To quote the books: "Your lords made you their king." "And can unmake me just as easy."

2. The Flip of a Coin: Considering that Sansa will become more realistic with her songs and knights, I can see her rereading Westeros’ history with a critical eye and noticing how fucking dangerous and unpredictable a king who rules all could be. Following Visery’s peaceful rule came the dance of dragons, with never ending several successions crises, and even during the “peaceful time”, rebellions were always hiding in the shadowing, waiting for the right time to strike. Maybe Daenerys is a good queen, but who’s to say her children would be? Or even her grandchildren? With how much the Iron Thrones has taken away, why should anyone continue kneeling to it? Especially the Starks, who lost so much of their family and legacy to the game of thrones? The gambles is no longer worth it.

3. Dragons are Pretty Fucking Scary, Actually: If there is one thing we all learned from House of the Dragon is that dragons are not fucking toys. They are living breathing and angry nuclear bombs ready to go off at the slightest trigger from their rider. They are wild animals; unhinged, wild and unpredictable. So I think Sansa, who survived the Battle of the Blackwater, saw what untamed fire can do,  has every right to be terrified of such massive beings. And if Rickon, Bran, and Arya are already home? There’s no way Sansa wouldn’t become protective of what’s left of her family. She wasn’t going to be Lady Sharra Arryn who had to give up her crown when her son was threatened. If needs be, Daenerys Targaryen  will inherent nothing but ashes and embers. The North will remain independent .

[navree]

People really are pushing the propaganda that Jace would be a good husband to Helaena as we can see in the book...

I don't know, in the book he cheats on the person he's supposed to marry, who he has a good relationship with, what makes them think I'll believe he wouldn't do the same to a woman he has a bad relationship with

I can understand there being some muddy waters surrounding whether Jace is a "good" husband considering that men having affairs isn't seen as a big deal in Westeros, plus the murkiness around whether Sara Snow actually existed, considering only the liar in chief Mushroom ever talked about her (though even then, Jace still abandoned this disadvantaged woman he fucked to go back to his betrothed anyway, so if she did exist that doesn't necessarily make him a stand up guy in how he treated her or Baela). But we don't really know how Jace is going to be as a husband at all because we know jack shit about him because the writers put in no effort developing Rhaenyra's kids at all and they're basically planks of wood until one of them got eaten by a dragon. Jace is, idk, dutiful? Likes causing problems for no reason? Bad at learning Valyrian? That's the full extent of what we can say about him. Wow what a prince.

Even more then that, Jace could be the single greatest husband on Planetos and it would mean jack shit. Because Jace is a bastard. And the second Helaena is married to him, her life is in active danger, because the second he attempts to ascend to the throne, there'll be all out warfare from people who can tell that he's a bastard because they have eyes that can see. And Helaena won't be safe, objectively she just won't be safe because this world has beat us over the head with the knowledge that women in succession crises/civil wars are in incredibly danger. We saw what happened to Princess Elia and her children, and Hell we're even going to see what's about to happen to actual Helaena and her children. Whether or not Jace would be a good husband to Helaena (jury's out, I say debatable because he's shown no interest in her and also he's got two personality traits, neither of which are necessarily great, on top of whether or not he ends up cheating on his fiancée) is immaterial, because marrying her puts her at risk of serious harm just because of the fact that he's not who his mom is pretending he is.

[warsofasoiaf]

bouncin off those previous asks, obv bloodraven doesnt let it happen but lets say maekar's ghost bonked him on the head beforehand, does / could aenys stand a real chance against the weaker candidates presented in the great council? maybe "i will dismantle the police state, divert crown resources to aid to rebuilding from previous crises, promise an end to the blackfyre wars, the golden company will become a royal army dedicated to directly protecting future raids" and would they take targ name?

The issue with that is that I think Aegon V would be offering much the same thing re: Bloodraven's police state particularly because he saw how the brutality that Bloodraven's policy fell on the smallfolk. I'm not sure Westeros has the bureaucratic structure necessary to fund a professional standing army with regular pay and facilities, and so if the Golden Company does have ties to Westeros, it would probably be in signing on to friendly Free Cities in Essos to advance Westerosi interests.

I think the Great Council would elect to not pursue legitimization of the full Blackfyre line in the interest of not reopening old wounds ala the aftermath of the Dance. Rather, the Council would instead acclaim Aenys by the power vested within the Great Council regarding succession and have him take on the Targaryen name, almost like an adoption by acclaim and assent. I admit, this might be a little bizarre because we don't really see this sort of thing happen in non-marriage scenarios (Joffrey Lydden becoming King Joffrey Lannister), but that's the closest Westerosi precedent I can think of. I don't think that would transform Westeros into an electoral monarchy, because Great Councils still seem like an emergency situation, rather than one that is called every matter of succession.

So the real question is whether Aegon's "half-a-peasant" nature would be more off-putting that Aenys's Blackfyre heritage. Making matters worse, what kind of guy is Aenys? Is he charming or is his nature off-putting? Does he have a strong handle on Westerosi customs and traditions or does he carry himself more with the Essosi style? What is his policy idea? How would he handle the nature of the Blackfyre exiles? What are his domestic and foreign policy priorities? If he's unmarried, who will he select as his Queen-Consort?

I'm not saying it's impossible, he'd almost certainly beat out Maegor Brightflame and Vaella, daughter of Daeron the Drunk. I'm just saying we know absolutely nothing about Aenys, so we have no idea whether or not he'd appeal to the lords assembled at the Great Council, what factions would support him or oppose him. Bloodraven seems to think that there's a large enough Blackfyre loyalist camp to warrant murdering Aenys, but Bloodraven is defined by paranoid overreaction and a willingness to do whatever he thinks is necessary regardless of the consequences, so it's not like he's a rational judge.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

[finitefall]

Alicent Hightower & Criston Cole: House Of The Dragon's Ultimate Trauma Bond/ House Hightower Is The Coolest House In Westeros That You Know Nothing About/ The Two Words In A Song Of Ice And Fire That Told Me Daenerys Targaryen Was A Villain/ Daemon Targaryen, Creating Succession Crises And Ruining Everyone's Time For At Least A Decade Now/ Rhaenyra Targaryen Is Not A Revolutionary Feminist Changing Westeros For The Better/ Aemond's Lost Eye Was The Start Of The Dance Of The Dragons/ Otto Hightower Is Everything A Westerosi Man Is Supposed To Be/ Did Aegon's Prophecy Cause "Targaryen Madness"?/Mhysa Is A Master: Daenerys Targaryen Was Always The Villain Hiding In Plain Sight/Alicent Hightower Is The Only One Worth Rooting For In House Of The Dragon (Fire & Blood Analysis)/Jon Snow & Daenerys Targaryen Were Never Fated To Save Westeros/Who Will Kill Daenerys Targaryen In A Song Of Ice And Fire ? 

BUT HILL'S ALIVE EXCEPT US TO TAKE HER SERIOUSLY LMAO.

"Why Young Griff Is The Real Aegon Targaryen, Not Faegon" was already enough for me to confirm that person has zero credibility.

Oh, and since she apparently hates Elena and Delena, I want to start posting about them again :)

[gameofthronedd]

But when you read The Scarlet Letter, did you supported the reverend, the puritan colony and Hester’s husband because adultery and fornication are the greatest and most monstrous sins and women can’t go around fucking anyone like harlots just because they want to ? Did you supported shaming, public humiliation and social stigma, even though this is exactly what the author denounces and rejects ? Just asking, because you willfully and spectacularly missed the point of the Dance and ASOIAF.

Haven't read The Scarlet Letter so I can't comment on that lmao.

My personal way of consuming ASOIAF is generally relatively neutral. As I've said, I like to try and understand characters and their drives, mindset, actions, consequences of actions etc. I do obviously have opinions and find things wrong or bad. But if I'm trying to consider characters objectively, and in regards to context, then I will analyse them in a more neutral way. Personally, that's just what I do. I like or enjoy most characters in HOTD, GOT and ASOIAF, and my enjoyment doesn't necessarily stem from whether I morally agree with them. Moreso, just who is more interesting to analyse.

That's just me. Consume content how you wish and like who you want :)

Now onto the author's messaging. GRRM is somewhat tricky in terms of 'placing' his commentary. We can't really say he's a feminist writer. Though he has female main characters and those aiming for the throne, that doesn't make him someone who is always writing from a narrative of "respect women". For example, there is extensive use of SA/r*pe scenes, hypersexualisation (especially of WOC) etc. Anyway, I would argue that ASOIAF, overall, is a critique of power at its very core.

My take is that the overall point of ASOIAF is a narrative of power, offering critiques of absolute monarchy, war, changing appetities of power and greed, an inability to see the bigger picture outside of personal ambition etc. As for the Dance, I view it in a similar way. I also think the Dance shows, like ASOIAF, the extents of inhumanity and how far people can go to maintain and attain power. Both sides are wrong and both sides are right, each each other's antagonist, and neither has a ruler that would be "ideal" (whether it be poor personality or poor political skills). Furthermore, the Dance is, at the end of the day, a tragedy. No one wins, not even House Targaryen. In fact, the Dance spells doom for the Targaryen Dynasty, the loss of dragons meaning a loss of hard power and the thing that made them "special" - all because of the insatiable greed of humanity. Not to mention, the Dance doesn't solve anything; we see the Blackfyre rebellions and further succession crises.

The Dance and ASOIAF are not about who should be the monarch because overall they critique power and insatiable ambition and this looming Iron Throne that distracts everyone from the real threat. Even in HOTD, we see Rhaenyra recieve this prophecy and no real engagement from Viserys or Nyra about what the "threat" is. Keep in mind, Viserys' stipulation about Targaryen blood being on the throne is an interpretation. He and Nyra both think a Targ should be ruler, neither considers what the threat is and they are only concerned about being on the throne. In Nyra's case, she takes Viserys' belief that she is the one to "unite the realm" and steadfastly maintains her right to the throne, despite knowledge of the need to unite the realm, the fact that a civil war will cause chaos, negatively impact the Targaryen Dynasty & whilst knowing that there is a threat out there.

That may sound like a dig at Nyra but it isn't. My point is, Rhaenyra does not exist outside the commentaries within the Dance, namely that of power and, especially in the case of Nyra & moreso Viserys, the issue of ignorance to the most pressing issues. This can also be related to the suffering of the smallfolk and how nobles seemingly don't give two shits about anything happening to the common people of Westeros.

To summarise, my take is that they (the Dance and ASOIAF) critique power and humanity, and the inhumanity that stems from desiring power.

I personally believe that literature and media can be consumed and analysed in a variety of ways. Following the author's view of the subject matter, remaining a detached consumer or having a  completely different view of the work are all valid ways of consuming literature and media. If everyone liked the same characters and processed media in the same way, the world would be quite boring, imo.

If you have a different interpretation of ASOIAF & the Dance, feel free to share, anon.

[bspolink1348]

Les nouveautés de la semaine (14/11/2022)

À la une : Quantitative enterprise risk management / Mary R. Hardy, David Saunders

Cote de rangement : HD 61 H 265610 / Domaine : Gestion

"This well-balanced introduction to enterprise risk management (ERM) integrates quantitative and qualitative approaches and motivates key mathematical and statistical methods with abundant real-world cases - both successes and failures. Worked examples and end-of-chapter exercises support readers in consolidating what they learn. The mathematical level, which is suitable for senior undergraduates in quantitative programs, is pitched to give readers a solid understanding of the concepts and principles involved without diving too deeply into more complex theory. To reveal the connections between different topics, and their relevance to the real world, the presentation has a coherent narrative flow, from risk governance, through risk identification, risk modelling, and risk mitigation, capped off with holistic topics - regulation, behavioural biases, and crisis management - that influence the whole structure of ERM. The result is a text and reference that is ideal for senior undergraduate students, risk managers in industry, and anyone preparing for ERM actuarial exams." - Quatrième de couverture

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Démographie

Figures de l'autre : perceptions du migrant en France, 1870-2022 / Catherine Wihtol De Wenden

Cote de rangement : JV 7920 W 265598

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Finance

En finir avec le règne de l'illusion financière : pour une croissance réelle / Jacques de Larosière

Cote de rangement : HG 173 .3 D 265599

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Sciences politiques

Terreur et séduction : une histoire de la doctrine de la "guerre révolutionnaire" / Jérémy Rubenstein

Cote de rangement : DC 367 R 265614

The return of great power rivalry : democracy versus autocracy from the ancient world to the U.S. and China / Matthew Kroenig

Cote de rangement : JZ 1313 K 265617

Peacebuilding legacy : programming for change and young people's attitudes to peace / Sukanya Podder

Cote de rangement : JZ 5579 P 265621

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Sociologie

Management lessons from game of thrones : organization theory and strategy in westeros / Fion Moore

Cote de rangement : HM 786 M 265616

Comment ça matche ? une sociologie de l'appariement / sous la direction de Melchior Simioni et Philippe Steiner

Cote de rangement : HM 851 C 265600

Le droit au sexe : le féminisme au vingt-et-unième siècle / Amia Srinivasan

Cote de rangement : HQ 65 S 265608

Networked feminism : how digital media makers transformed gender justice movements / Rosemary Clark-Parsons

Cote de rangement : HQ 1155 C 265619

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Communication

Deepfakes / Graham Meikle

Cote de rangement : HM 851 M 265613

Q comme qomplot : comment les fantasmes de complot défendent le système / Wu Ming 1

Cote de rangement : HV 6275 W 265609

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Économie

La solidarité des éprouvés : une histoire politique de la pauvreté / Guillaume le Blanc

Cote de rangement : HC 79 .P6 L 265607

Pourquoi s’opposer à l’inégalité / Thomas M. Scanlon

Cote de rangement : HM 821 S 265615

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Informatique

Révolution de la donnée : les data, la ressource du XXIe siècle / sous la direction de Jean-Michel Huet et Florence Dugas

Cote de rangement : QA 76 .9.B45 R 265601

Afterlives of data : life and debt under capitalist surveillance / Mary F. E. Ebeling

Cote de rangement : RA 976 E 265611

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Psychologie

Un si vital sentiment d'insécurité / Isabelle Siac

Cote de rangement : BF 575 .S35 S 265606

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Gestion

Doing process research in organizations : noticing differently / edited by Barbara Simpson, Line Revsbæk

Cote de rangement : HD 30 .55 D 265618

Advanced introduction to negotiation / Leigh Thomson, Cynthia S. Wang

Cote de rangement : HD 58 .6 T 265612

Reporting et pilotage des organisations pour une société résiliente : la comptabilité et le contrôle à l'épreuve de la crise COVID / dirigé par Sophie Giordano-Spring et Fabienne Villesèque-Dubus

Cote de rangement : HD 58 .95 R 265603

Career and family : women's century-long journey toward equity / Claudia Goldin

Cote de rangement : HD 6061 .2.U6 G 265620

Culture en partage : guide des plateformes culturelles contributives / Marta Severo, Sébastien Shulz, Olivier Thuillas

Cote de rangement : HD 9999 .C9472 S 265602

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Technologie

La bienveillance des machines : comment le numérique nous transforme à notre insu / Pierre Cassou-Noguès

Cote de rangement : T 173 .8 C 265605

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Anthropologie

La terre, les corps, la mort : essai sur la condition terrestre / Pierre Madelin

Cote de rangement : BD 444 M 265604

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Tous ces ouvrages sont exposés sur le présentoir des nouveautés de la BSPO. Ceux-ci pourront être empruntés à domicile à partir du 28 novembre 2022.

[crazycoke-addict]

There are youtuber named Hill's Alive who makes really good analyse videos about Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon. So here are so reccomendations:

Daemon Targaryen, creating succession crises and ruining everyone's time for t least a decade now:

Rhaenyra Targaryen is not revolutionary feminist changing westeroes for the better:

CSA, Child-exploitation & lolitafication of a Song of Ice and Fire:

Mysa is a master.Daenerys Targaryen was always the villain hiding in plain sight:

Why everyone hates Sansa Stark (& why they are all wrong):

Game of thrones ignored the politics of Sansa Stark and Daenerys Targaryen:

The Myth of Jon's wicked stepmother, Catelyn Stark, A song of Ice and Fire Analysis:

[andthemaidenfair]

I think that Arya and Cat are very similar even though it’s not immediately obvious and a lot of it comes down to how differently their childhoods molded them.

Arya is one of the luckiest girls in all of Westeros preAGOT. She is born to one of the most important and noble families in the land in a time of peace. The Starks aren’t the richest of the Paramount houses but they are the “oldest” and they are of an ancient line and they have plenty of resources and political sway when it comes down to it. House Stark has historically stayed out of southron politics but when they do decide to get involved man can they lay down the hammer! Plus they were blessed as favorites of king Robert, which is no small thing to be sure. On top of that Arya had three brothers and was the second daughter. She wasn’t living through a potential Stark succession crisis and as the second daughter of an already very powerful family it wasn’t absolutely vital that she make a perfect match. Maybe other houses would have been ambitious enough to put both daughters through the wringer to make them perfectly by the book Ladies but Ned and Cat are content enough in their socioeconomic position and loving enough to let Arya behave as she would in childhood. This isn’t to say that they wouldn’t have sought a marriage for her later or that it was ok that neither parent ever checked her septa on neglecting her duties to Arya but they both seemed to let her be a normal rough and tumble little girl and even encouraged her in this.

Catelyn Tully was raised in the midst of several crises and even outright war. She was the heir apparent of a ruling house for a long time, which is a politically dangerous place for any girl of her time to be in. It doesn’t matter that Hoster raised her as an heir, the likelihood that her lordship would be accepted quietly and peacefully was slim to none. She had to be a perfect, flawless leader and beyond. Women (and other non white, Christian, cis people) often have to be better than the best just to be taken seriously and I have to believe that this is the mindset that Hoster had when training her as his heir in Cat’s formative years. And then he had Edmure. But rather than relieving Catelyn of her premature maturity it only added to it. Losing Lady Tully meant that Cat had to fill that role. She was in charge of the entire household at all times and more than that when her father was away (remember these weren’t totally peaceful times.) She had to be mother, accounts keeper, counselor, negotiator, ambassador, politician, leader of house and state all while staying demure and attractive as a potential bride. And she was still so young.

From Cat’s inner monologue I feel like she’d be so much like Ayra if the world had let her. She cherished memories of splashing in muddy rivers and playing games with her siblings. I always picture young Catelyn barefoot and speckled with dirt, wearing dresses with hems soaked in mud and river water that are coming undone in some places, sporting braids that feature loose strands and dotted with bits of leaf and twig, flushed from excise with a skinned knee in a tree or river bank. But she could only be that girl when she wasn’t fulfilling her duty as Lady Catelyn of House Tully. She could never be as free as Arya was because she was the eldest child, eldest girl and motherless to boot, in a far more uncertain world, a world that depended on her being more than any child should ever be asked to be. Cat was smart even before her political training and even after her training could never fully banish her firy temper and unabashedly forward personality. Taking Catelyn out of her home, her culture, did not sever her connection to her heritage or her own self and self image.

Catelyn is distrustful, suspicious, brooding, outspoken, quick to anger, deeply vengeful, and can make rash and emotionally charged decisions. Catelyn is also fiercely loyal, always looking to make a friend and stand up for an ally, determined, passionate, bold, clever, driven by love of her home and her family to the bitter end. Replace Cat with Arya in this paragraph and tell me it doesn’t work.

[turtle-paced]

What happens if Alicent Hightower loses her adult children before Viserys dies, but not her three grandchildren. Rhaenyra ascends and then Jace and Baela. Does the Dance skip down to the next generation?

I’m sorry, anon, but I can’t give you a solid hypothetical on this. Over an entire AU generation, there are a shitload of intervening factors.

What I am reasonably sure of: Rhaenyra would likely have made herself deeply unpopular in some quarters, a feeling quite possibly agitated by Alicent and her faction, and the apparent bastardy of Rhaenyra’s children would pose her and them both political problems. If Rhaenyra weathered the various crises, then there would be a precedent for a ruling queen in Westeros for future princesses to rely on in succession disputes. Which may or may not help avert any conflict - I think it would largely depend on the circumstances of the second time the issue came up.

[sayruq]

Do you think Jon fights for Dany in the books against Aegon? It makes so much sense that the kingdoms decide to throw him back at the wall if he’s not only trying to help usurp his brother but is also partly responsible for a second sack. That would leave such a bad taste to the rest of Westeros I can see the rest of the Starks having no problem (and no choice, since the rest of the south might actually hate him) with him going back to the Wall then. He’d be the Blackfyre threat Cat feared.

That would be interesting. Bastards are reviled for being greedy (succession crises and all) so Jon fighting Aegon who will be accepted as Elia’s trueborn son will destroy Jon’s reputation because of how bastards are viewed. If he does help Daenerys until she destroys King’s Landing then he’ll be one of the most hated men in Westeros history. Sending him to the Wall will be mercy compared to whatever people have planned for him. It would bring his arc full circle. He went to Wall at 14 because he felt he had no choice and he’d return to it at 18-19 a criminal who might be a hero in the North but a reviled man in the south.

This would explain why GRRM expanded Rhaenyra and Daemon Targaryen and their relationship so Jon and Daenerys’ arc would seem similar to fans.

[sayitwithsarcophilus]

True Ending to Game of Thrones: Whoever gets the Iron Throne, all the survivors realize that succession crises are going to happen in the future at some point, and nobody wants to go through six damn books of this nonsense again.  So Westeros becomes an elective monarchy, in hope that more frequent but smaller and better organized succession drama will, in the end, provide better stability for the realm.

However, the system does not go off to a smooth start, as the first election results in a three-way tie between Sansa Stark, the Night King, and the most photogenic of Dany’s dragons.