#because it has to. because it must. because after balon dies it is all he has left

[undeniablespice]

drowned god the weak little beast you put on this earth to write fanfiction and like greyjoys has been neglecting homework in order to reread the affc ironborn chapters and have way too many opinions about the soggiest man in the world. i have Had Some Thoughts on aeron, theon, and names

it really is striking to me just how little people refer to aeron by his name. not just in conversation, but in the narrative itself, with the most notable example of this being aeron himself in his pov chapters constantly thinking of himself not as aeron but as damphair or just The Priest. he refers to himself as damphair or The Priest instead of aeron like twenty times throughout the prophet, to the point where it's used almost as frequently as his actual name. in the drowned man it's only like eight times (which i think is mostly because the vast majority of this chapter is given over to the kingsmoot, where aeron is mostly a spectator and the narrative focus is on the events taking place rather than his reaction to them). in the forsaken, it's ten times, though while aeron is actively imprisoned he mostly thinks of himself as aeron, with damphair being used four times in flashbacks to events that took place in the past, once during a conversation with euron while aeron is defying him, and then three times after he is freed and he can see the sea again

the consistency and frequency of aeron in his own mind thinking of himself as something other than his name reads to me almost like a foil to theon and reek. the identity of the damphair allows aeron to dissociate himself from the burden of his past weaknesses and sins: his pre-drowning frivolity and alcoholism and euron's sexual abuse. for aeron, being damphair is as empowering as being reek is degrading for theon. he is constantly affirming to himself that he is a loyal servant of the drowned god and that this makes him strong. it gives him status and purpose he never had as aeron the boy, who was the youngest and weakest of his brothers. aeron-the-priest cannot be frightened by any mortal man any more than he can be frightened by the dark or by memories. kill the boy to become the man -> drown the boy to become the damphair

(although, of course, when aeron tells himself all this about how god chose him and it makes him strong and special and immune to fear, he is deluding himself. the damphair is haunted incessantly by his brothers. aeron has the tendency to reconcile his lasting fear of euron with his special god-given immunity to such mortal flaws as feeling fear by believing that euron is ungodly/an avatar of the storm god/literally the devil, and therefore not really a mortal man in the same way that balon and victarion are

which is a really interesting parallel to how euron must see himself, what with the whole apotheosis god-king thing he's got going on by twow. in a way, euron is aeron's real god. it is euron's abuse that first connected aeron with faith, and it is faith that aeron uses to cope with and overcome the lasting psychological scars of that abuse and urri's death. aeron doesn't think of euron as a mere flesh and blood human being anymore. he's mythologized the crow's eye in his own mind: euron is not just his abuser, he's a boogeyman, a devil, quite literally the thing that goes bump in the night. and euron knows this, and delights in knowing it and in taking every chance he can to tear down aeron's faith and replace the drowned god with himself as the backbone of aeron's life. which he does not actually succeed in doing, as of the forsaken! aeron keeps his faith like theon keeps his name. it cannot be taken from them)

reek, meanwhile, is not an identity that theon chooses to assume to cope with his trauma. it is forced upon him in the middle of the trauma and he has no choice but to accept it for his own self-preservation. ramsay devastates theon physically: flaying him, starving him, beating him, removing his fingers and toes and teeth and genitals. imprisonment and violence are the tools he uses to take away theon's physical strength to resist him, but reek is how he gets to all the parts of theon that can't be bruised or cut. it's the psychological equivalent of a flaying knife. reek is the weapon he uses to attack theon's identity and sense of self and personhood. though it's important to me to note that those were things theon was already struggling with well before ramsay came on the scene, and that he has an absolutely unbelievably strong will that allows him to retain a degree of his original personality under ramsay and regain his own name later in adwd even after enduring all the torture and abuse. he is a greyjoy of pyke. his name is theon, and if he dies, he will die as theon, not as reek. when he leans into being reek, it is as a means of self-preservation and protection from harm. he basically says as much to jeyne when he tells her to be arya: he believes that serving ramsay and capitulating to his whim is the best way to stay safe. you have to know your name.

ultimately, theon is as relieved to be rid of the name reek as aeron is relieved to see the ocean again at the end of the forsaken. theon's name is a source of pride to him, something that he clings to after he has lost everything else, something that will always be his even after all that has been taken away from him. aeron's name is a source of shame, something that he is reduced to when he feels weak, something that he reverts to when he is powerless at the mercy of his abuser

[amber-laughs]

I frequently think about the fact that the must fuck up Jon cate interaction possible never happened cus my boy wasn't present for the 5 kings war

Picture this robb going to complain to Jon from his mum wanting to exchange Jaime for his sister and jon is just like she right of course she right

Cat going to start her no trusting theon and balon is dumb as fuck discourse just for Jon to say it word for word before she can ever speak

Like they would both be mortified but they have the same opinion a 100% of the time on every thing

I need your opinion on this

I'm so glad you asked about this because it's one of my favorite what ifs. So I will start off by saying a lot of the wisdom Jon has opposed to Robb he gains from being at or beyond the Wall so for a lot he and Robb do start off at the same baseline but like you said anon he and Catelyn have very similar priorities and suspicions from the jump that Robb either never had or was forced to give up.

We know Jon never trusted Theon and has had no reservations telling Robb in the past "Jon always said you were an ass, Greyjoy," Robb said loudly. So yes he would 100% be on Catelyn's side and I think we have enough background Robb/Jon info to say that even with Robb's coronation they would maintain the type of relationship where Jon could speak his mind in private like Catelyn does.

And we know from when Jon frees both Mance and Val he's willing to let prisoners go if he thinks he'll benefit from it. Not only that but just like Cat wants peace with the Lannisters Jon wants peace with the wildlings. I know Jon has the line "It's death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn." but at that point they've killed Robb and Ned plus thinks they killed Arya, trapped Sansa in a marriage and thinks Bran and Rickon are dead as well. If faced with the option to trade them for Jaime when Catelyn brings it up in Clash I think Jon is on her side. Even when Stannis is offering him lordship as Lord of Winterfell he declines it because he doesn't want to burn weirwoods not because he'd be a vassal to King Stannis. He doesn't seem to care about Northern Independence, in fact he's never mentioned it at all unless I'm forgetting something.

This is all if Jon never goes to the Wall at all. If somehow-someway Robb and Cat survive the Red Wedding and Jon shows up as Robb's heir after all he's learned I think Catelyn gets one fuck of an ally unfortunately I don't think she could handle having Jon there and he never brings it up again but in AGoT before Ned dies Jon says he would blame her as much as Cersei so that might come back if they're face to face, like you said I don't know if they could stand it but they would probably agree on most things.

also if you're reading this and want more Jon-Catelyn similarities feel free to click here

[kingsmoot]

i see theon's arc in acok as a very strong parallel to ned's arc in agot and i've said before that theon digging his heels in at winterfell is a wolfbrained greenlander thing to do but it specifically mirrors ned's own strategy when he's in king's landing

the parallel is in their decision making style and in their total refusal of outside help

in agot, ned is offered an "out" from his position as hand in king's landing that would keep him and his daughters safe by like, everyone. varys, littlefinger, and renly tell him to get out before robert dies because they know exactly how this is going to end for him and his young girls. but it's not the honorable thing to do and he is duty bound to stay and reveal the truth of joffrey's parentage. so he stays and he does the "right" thing and he gets his head cut off.

in acok, theon captures a mostly-empty winterfell with thirty men and understands very quickly that there is no way he can hold this castle. with bran and rickon "dead" he doesn't even have anything that can guarantee his safety when ser rodrik returns (he ends up using beth but he knows this isn't a strong play, it's a desperate one). asha tells him this (after he already knows it to be true) and tells him to come back with her to deepwood motte, but he refuses. ser rodrik tells him to face the noose with honor and spare his men, maester luwin tells him multiple times that he cannot hold the castle and must surrender before he suggests for him to take the black, and he turns every offer down.

ned's decision to follow the same mystery that jon arryn was investigating and then his commitment to reveal joffrey's parentage is a course that everyone around him (who already knows the secret and has known the whole time) know will lead to his death. and they all try to get him to leave but he won't, because that's not the honorable thing to do. theon decides that the only way he can prove himself to balon and get his own justice for his ten years of captivity is to take and hold winterfell and be its rightful prince. that's the only thing that's fair and if he gives up after taking the castle that'll ruin what he's conceived of as justice.

in both cases, their death lurks at their elbow for the whole of the journey. for theon this is very literal, with "reek" tailing him around waiting to pounce, and for ned the danger is all around him and he refuses to see it. the "open secret" of joff's parentage among the castle's intelligence, the reality of robert baratheon and his horrible regime/inability + lack of desire to rule, etc. ned ignores far more omens (dead direwolf with a stag's antler through its neck) and red flags (being ordered to kill your daughter's puppydog) than theon does on his journey to the place of his demise (theon has a pretty successful run up until he takes winterfell) but it's a very. it's a very "that's his father's son" situation. to me.

[atopvisenyashill]

What would've happened if Cersei and Jaime only had daughters?

To be completely honest, I think Robert goes hard in the PAINT for his daughters to inherit after him. Joffrey (Jocelyn, perhaps) will almost definitely be a handful the realm is not prepared to deal with because if we think a son of Robert, Cersei, and Jaime was going to be insane that's nothing compared to what an oldest girl and heir presumptive is going to be like. She's not likely to be as strong willed and kind as Myrcella because Mycrella is like that due to the abusive behavior of her parents and older brother; more like, we'd have a sort of mini-Cersei who believes other women are weak, that might makes right, and that as the heir presumptive she is worth more than all others around her. She's not likely to be quite as violent as Joffrey but Saera Targaryen did just fine torturing the court fool instead of innocent cats, so it's likely our Jocelyn Baratheon is going to act similarly.

At the same time - if Tommen comes out a girl, Cersei is going to start getting desperate to have a boy. Maybe she and Jaime get riskier and start fucking more often, where they're more likely to get caught. Maybe Cersei switches to other men and if Jaime gets wind of that (if the main series is anything to go by) he is going to react badly. While all this is going on, Jon Arryn and Robert are discussing succession. I'm saying it again but I think Robert is stubborn enough in the same way Balon and Stannis are, and would push his daughter to be named Crown Princess over Stannis or Renly, and that brings up all the issues that Rhaenyra (and Rhaena and Daenerys the First and Rhaenys) would bring up, the main issue of which is: CAN THE IRON THRONE PASS TO A WOMAN???

Slight historical detour here: Despite Maester Munkin's bitch ass opinions (if you recall, when debating whether Baela or Rhaena should be Aegon III's heir, Munkin simply says that a woman can't sit the Iron Throne because even though there is no other option but the dragon twins, because as Rhaenys says, men would rather put the realm to the torch than let a woman rule over them), and yet after the Dance there is a point where the Crown's heir is a woman despite male relatives being alive. Aerys I acknowledges Aelora (daughter of his next closest sibling, Rhaegel) as his heir but when Aelora dies, he doesn't then acknowledge Daenora as his heir (even though she's Rhaegel's youngest) but Maekar as his heir. And mind you, little Maegor is put forth not as Daenora's heir but as Aerion's heir instead (and then dismissed on account of being a literal infant). So women can be heirs potentially, if the King feels like it, but they can't inherit nor can their children. You can see where the problem is here, lol, lmao.

I think Jon Arryn is going to continue pushing for a male heir but at the same time, Jon has his female line backup heir ready in Harry Hardyng and the Vale has been ruled by an heiress turned Ruling Lady before in Jeyne Arryn. If Robert pushes for it, there's certainly a chance Jon agrees that from now on the Iron Throne will follow Andal law, wherein a daughter comes before an uncle. Indeed, Stannis also sticks by Andal law (he tells Renly directly that Renly would be heir over Shireen, because it's assumed Shireen would be his heir. After that, he makes sure to tell his men directly that Shireen is the new heir. Stannis, at least, also feels that Andal law should prevail so it's not a far stretch that Robert would agree and fight Jon Arryn over this). That makes the marriage match for Jocelyn Baratheon 100% more important because her husband's family must be aware that they may have to help fight for her claim AND it gives Dorne a potential in to push for absolute primogeniture.

This ripples out to Dany and Viserys in Essos. If Dany can make an actual claim to inherit something (because right now, her claim is tenuous at best under Targaryen rule! Women are not allowed to sit the throne!!) because the Throne is now a bit more egalitarian AND she has dragons? I do think she catches Varys' attention a little earlier in that scenario.

(if Robert really wants to he can engage Joffrey to Robb. You'd run into the same issues with Corlys/Laenor/Lucerys though since there haven't been enough prince-consorts to explain what an heir would do if he's consort, vs an heiress like Myriah was required to give up her seat to her younger brother. This would mean an earlier - and likely longer - conversation with Ned about betrothals. If Robert really wants his heir to marry a Stark, he can tell Ned that Robb can marry Jocelyn and either his second born inherits or Bran can inherit and Robb gives up his claim to Lord of Winterfell and set the precedent one way or the other. Then he'd do well to look at Dorne and the Reach for Myrcella and Tommen because he needs to shore up support while the girls are still young if he wants to avoid another gender based civil war. Otherwise, looking to the Reach, the Marches, and Dorne is an excellent idea to head off any rebellion issues. Most of the Blackfyre supporters were in the Marches and the Reach which makes sense because the Marches have a continuous geographic & ethnic based beef with Dorne, and the Reach is filled with shitty fantasy catholics. If he gets most of them on his side like Daeron II tried to, he can get in front of any rebellions coming from Stannis or Renly loyalists early).

Of course....the problem is that the children aren't actually Robert's. So while he's going ham on making sure his daughter is inheriting, Stannis and Jon are still getting suspcious as to why all three kids look golden haired, and Jaime and Cersei are still sneaking around...what happens then? Mess, is what happens, hahahaha.

[janiedean]

Book!Theon is Azor!Ahai, not Jon. It makes no sense narratively for Jon to be AA, and it’s the most stereotypical thing ever, and he’s already stereotypical, he’s the red flag for the audience. Theon’s chapters are full of hints, he has the perfect salt/smoke/stars/dragons thing at the end of ACOK, when he “dies”. His story is about destroying death, his entire narrative, with things that come from mythology and ancient literature, points to that. The show is trash, but don’t you think that it’s a little weird that Theon is there at the end and then Arya comes out of nowhere and becomes AA? And what ending does she get? Exploring the unknown SEA with SHIPS? Being free and on her own? Maybe it doesn’t make sense for her because it’s not for her. D&D already took everything else from Theon, they took this too. And even if he’s not AA, he’s still clearly connected to magic and all of that, he didn’t go though so much for nothing, he didn’t take his name back for the first time in his life, his name that literally means “godly”, for nothing. He has something big to do, and it’s about himself, not Robb and the Starks. And he’s also so clearly connected to the politics of the north and of the iron islands, a villain was literally created for him, so I don’t understand how can you say he’s not really important and all he’s got left to do is retire in a house and be sad. Of course he has a lot of trauma and that’s important, but I don’t like how people reduce him to that and act like just because those things happened, he can’t do anything else

anon with no ill will and I swear I don't want to sound pedantic or anything but I, uh, never came to the conclusion you say I came from - that said let's go in order even if I think I already went through all the reasons why it makes literally no sense if it's anyone but jon, but let's start with one thing:

It makes no sense narratively for Jon to be AA, and it’s the most stereotypical thing ever, and he’s already stereotypical, he’s the red flag for the audience.

it's stereotypical.... to us maybe, but it is not to westeros. like, you're looking at it through audience-lens because it has been years and the show confirmed r+l=j and we all figured that shit out, but to westeros, the idea that the prince that was promised is a bastard guy serving on the wall aka a state-sponsored prison where people go to not die and is filled to non-desirables to society is... the least likely option in existence? no really, but again:

first thing that should quiet all doubts, when melisandre asks r'hollor to see azor ahai bc she wants to see stannis, r'hollor shows her jon snow and instead of going like 'uh wait why am I seeing another dude' she's like 'I want to see stannis but r'hollor shows me jon snow there must be some disturbance on the line', like she doesn't even consider for a second that it might be jon;

no one else has brought WITHIN THE NARRATIVE jon up as a likely candidate - they said stannis, they said dany, they said whoever but no one ever said hey jon snow might be AA, because again no one even suspects that it might be jon;

other matter that you're overlooking here: if theon is azor ahai.... it means that the rebellion basically was for nothing? because like the entire shtick with rhaegar targaryen's bad life choices™ is that he was apparently a swell dude, then he read a book where somehow it was exactly explained how the apocalypse was gonna happen, he deduced that he was the guy who had to father AA/the prince that was promised and in order - first he doesn't care about fighting but suddenly after that he starts getting learned; - he immediately worries over having THREE children from which we can deduce from the narrative that as far as he knows in order to fight when the wights come he has to have three kids for three dragons and one of them is azor ahai; - the moment his wife can't have more than two even if he's sure that he already had the right one (aegon) he still runs off with lyanna to make sure he has the third because it's that important that HE rhaegar targaryen fathers the three heads of the dragon... to the point of starting a civil war and most likely giving arthur orders to make sure that the kid lives at all costs even if he thinks lyanna's kid is NOT AA; - let's remember that the entire schtick is also that 'he is the ptwp and his is the song of ice and fire' which means that this kid of rhaegar's is the person these books are titled after.

now, let's look again at tyrion's infamous quote which I always bring up in these cases but let's refresh our memory here Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head now: given this, we can absolutely assume that no single prophecy in this book goes the way the person at the end of it interprets it... which means that rhaegar was wrong on a lot of accounts, but guess what, the thing is that one out of three of his kids is dead (if we count aegon as trueborn, if he's not then two on three but I think he's trueborn) and the one who hatched the eggs/has the dragon is DANY so he already was wrong on head of the dragon #1, and he can absolutely be wrong on aegon being tptwp which would mean mistake #2 and we should know about the prophecy, but one of his children being AA and his being the song of ice and fire looks a bit too much of a stretch to be incorrect and have AA being someone else's son also would be.... but if AA is jon ie the one he had for last that he was sure was not AA and who doesn't even have the targ name (nor the stark one) and no one suspects having that kinda ancestry then yes it fits exactly all the parameters and it still allows for rhaegar to have partially misinterpreted the entire thing even in large chunks but not enough to make it look like he was completely making shit up, which... I mean the long night is coming I don't doubt he had very good reasons to want to stop it; also, anon not to beat the dead horse, but: - jon's death fits all the prophecy parameters already there's the bleeding star, the smoking wound and the salt of the tears which btw is not obvious nor something you'd immediately do 2+2 about... which fits perfectly with the above - jon died and came back to life in the godforsaken show like he's literally the only idiot who resurrected in it and we're supposed to handwave it the way dnd did? - jon has a valyrian steel sword that he can handle while theon atm really doesn't - we could argue that ygritte could be a possible nissa-nissa contender though I mean maybe it could also be that he and val get hot and bothered and it turns out it's her or someone else and that hasn't happened yet but surely there's more evidence for that with jon than with theon - theon has like... povs in two books for a total amount of less than fifteen chapters, jon has at least ten chapters per book or so on, which just mathematically makes jon a main fiver character while theon is not and like I understand deconstruction and all but you don't make your ace in the hole mystical prince hero character someone who has had fifteen chapters total at most unless I remember wrong the amount he had in acok in comparison to someone who was a main throughout the entire thing - like guys I say it as someone whose third-fave char is theon, theon is not a main fiver™ character and that's okay that's not the point, and with that I don't mean he's not important, I mean that he's not one of the five main ones that have most of the plot stuff on their shoulders and he's not THE main character, because if theon is AA then these books are named a song of theon greyjoy and considering that the main five are jon tyrion arya dany and bran I think it's highly not probable that at the end of it theon is the one character to rule them all

and that was for how jon fit the criteria, but theon doesn't fit them because again he doesn't have a number of chapters/povs that justifies such a plot twist, balon is certainly not rhaegar and I don't see how rhaegar reads a prophecy wrt balon and thinks it's about him, the heads of the dragon should be three and theon had three siblings two of which are dead and asha has no tie to the dragon storyline, this means that theon should be able to ride/command a dragon and we know that in theory just targs can and there's already three of them around - dany jon and aegon - and if anyone who's not a targ has a narrative reason to ride a dragon is tyrion not theon... and tyrion is a main fiver too, also there's the nissa-nissa/burning sword angle and as it is theon could absolutely use a bow again but a longsword with his hands maimed like that and no muscle mass would be a bit implausible, in order for the reborn prophecy to actually make sense it means his last adwd chapter should have smoke, salt and the bleeding star which it doesn't but jon's has so there's that

now, re what you said wrt theon:

Theon’s chapters are full of hints

not really? he doesn't have a tie to the magical storyline beyond his connection to bran. they have hints for a lot of things but that he's AA? idt so

he has the perfect salt/smoke/stars/dragons thing at the end of ACOK, when he “dies”

okay but then I could use the same argument for saying that AA could be davos when he survives blackwater because he says he woke up in wreckage of smoke in salty water, and then stannis has equally valid arguments bc he has the shiny sword and he's in dragonstone etc and we all know it's not stannis, also an AA death at the ending of acok when the topic has barely been introduced in dany's vision is entirely too early for me to drop that bomb

his story is about destroying death, his entire narrative, with things that come from mythology and ancient literature, points to that.

his story is about overcoming trauma and abuse and not dying in the process (which is why I think the show was trash) and okay but everyone in these books has something that comes from a mythology or ancient literature, like jaime brienne and c. all have arthuriana roots same as bran, doesn't make any of them a viable AA candidate

The show is trash, but don’t you think that it’s a little weird that Theon is there at the end and then Arya comes out of nowhere and becomes AA?And what ending does she get? Exploring the unknown SEA with SHIPS? Being free and on her own? Maybe it doesn’t make sense for her because it’s not for her.

considering that maisie williams was shocked that arya was AA and she also thought it made no sense and that dnd never thought theon had his own storyline while I can agree on the fact that it fits more for him as an ending than for arya, I don't think that means it makes him AA, same as I think that they gave sansa his storyline and possibly his confrontation with ramsay and I'm not 100% convinced on the last part anyway but that just means they didn't realize theon doesn't exist for the starks' storyline, also like.. in the show everyone but c. was in WF and theon was already dead when arya did her thing and honestly idt the battle of the long night will ever go like that anyway so idt even partially show truthing is bringing us anywhere

and even if he’s not AA, he’s still clearly connected to magic and all of that, he didn’t go though so much for nothing, he didn’t take his name back for the first time in his life, his name that literally means “godly”, for nothing

I never said it was for nothing which I'll elaborate in a second and ofc he's connected to the magic storyline... because he's connected with bran's storyline and his last round of atonement has to happen through bran in the sense that since he was the one basically forcing bran out of wf now he most likely has to facilitate bringing him back or smth (surely not dying for him), but like whatever magical stuff he has going on it has to do with bran dot, not with AA which I still think he doesn't have a stricter text connection to than davos has for that matter and idt davos is AA as I think I made clear

He has something big to do, and it’s about himself, not Robb and the Starks.

never said he didn't, and I also said that I wasn't going to speculate in detail about what theon has to do because I don't think there are enough text elements to say it now but there will be when wow comes out for sure, but like again I don't want to make predictions when I don't have the elements and wrt theon's themes/possible canon ending etc I always said that he most likely isn't going to inherit the islands but that he'll do something huge before the books are done which is gonna be tied to the northern storyline and possibly to bran because he has to go specular to acok - acok is his downfall, adwd is 'I'll find myself again', wow+ados have to be what would theon do if he decides his own thing while being his own person, or recycling my old THEON HAS HEGELIAN THEMES IN HIS STORYLINE acok = thesis, adwd = antithesis, wow+ados = synthesis so obviously he has something huge in the plans.... I just don't think it means he's AA

And he’s also so clearly connected to the politics of the north and of the iron islands, a villain was literally created for him, so I don’t understand how can you say he’s not really important and all he’s got left to do is retire in a house and be sad

aaand here we get to the point which is that... I never said that? I honestly never said that? I said he has to overcome his trauma and live and thrive and be happy after that. if he retires in a house at the end of ados after he does whatever he has to do in the main plot it's going to be because it's what he wants to do and most likely he and jeyne are going to be adorbs while doing it together or smth or if he goes back to the islands and advises asha then he's going to be happy doing that too, but like... the entire point of theon's sl is that he overcomes that horrendous abuse while not being a perfect good victim™ throughout and still be happy after and gain his redemption? that's what I always said. I never said that now he can just retire and be sad. trauma recovery is becoming happy after getting over your trauma. not being sad. and like.... sometimes not getting amazing mythological things but just being happy by yourself is actually a goal? again, grrm is a lapsed catholic. if I know that breed and I do, he doesn't think redemption and happiness are in shortage at the supermarket. and in order for theon to have narrative importance/weight/relevance he doesn't have to do magical mythological IMPORTANT™ things (even if I think he does have something cooked up as I said above), but like the entire point of his sl is the trauma recovery. he's there for that. that's literally his point in the plot and the fact that grrm created a villain for him means that he thinks it's an important thing to explore.

also I personally think that theon's arc is the best written thing in those books so like I don't want to undermine its importance, I just don't think that in order to be important™ then theon has to be dragged kicking and screaming into main fiver territory because there isn't the need.

. Of course he has a lot of trauma and that’s important, but I don’t like how people reduce him to that and act like just because those things happened, he can’t do anything else

I don't like that either esp. when coming from dnd who didn't even let him have it fully, but: and when did I ever do it? I never said that theon is only his trauma. my standing opinion wrt theon is that he's grrm's best written/constructed character (along with jaime) and his most innovative one (jaime following but theon wins it) because theon deconstructs the backstabber trope which I already went on about but:

again usually ppl who backstab the good protagonist™ get caught and punished and you never hear their pov

theon has all the povs

he's the main char in that storyline not robb

he has entirely understandable reasons that ppl decided aren't sympathetic just bc they don't want to admit that in his position they'd have done the same thing

the audience hates him for having contributed to robb's downfall but then he gets a comeuppance that's completely not what anyone would deserve for that and he gets the spotlight/the sympathy again

he gets narrative redemption saving jeyne so you can see he's not an asshole at all

has to get through horrific abuse for his entire life not just with ramsay, he's not a good victim™ but he's still written in a way that makes you want to root for him and at the end he actually comes through so you want him to keep on succeeding

which is smth that with the backstabber trope never happens

now the thing is that theon's there bc a) identity issues b) trauma recovery storylines that then get tied to bran's main one but like idg why just having the recovery storyline would make him lesser - saying he's not a main fiver doesn't mean he's not important, it means he's not a MAIN™ character... which in asoiaf doesn't matter bc even ppl without povs are important to the narration and are there to drive a point (see sandor and stannis), and I don't see why saying that the most important part of his sl/the one grrm wants to stick with the readers is the survivor part of it rather than whichever heavy magic related plot thing he has to play in the future means undermining his importance. and while I think he has that role, idt it's the most important one he has bc being a survivor is what sells his storyline/the entire arc of his character.

then if come wow I'm wrong I'll be like okay I fucked up, but: honestly, imvho there is no way that azor ahai is not jon snow, the fact that collectively as a fandom we think it's obvious doesn't mean people in westeros do, each single point of evidence is at jon and if occam's razor is a thing then it's jon and that's okay because as deconstructed chosen one as he is, jon is still the protagonist of these books and regarding the prophecy above, it makes a lot more sense that this series is titled a song of jon snow and not a song of theon greyjoy and I say this as someone who vastly prefers theon as a character. also, if smth is well-written, readers should see it coming, so the fact that jon is AA isn't predictable if it's true, it's grrm.... knowing how to write a book and plant his hints because if everyone guessed right then if he makes it suddenly someone else bc jon is too predictable then it's dnd making it arya bc SURPRISE WE NEEDED YOU TO GO LIKE WTF HAS JUST HAPPENED INSTEAD OF FOLLOWING THE NARRATION TO ITS NATURAL CONCLUSION, not 'it's too predictable' or the audience red herring the way jaime being the valonqar is an audience red herring. jon being AA should be absolutely obvious for the reader who paid attention and a total surprise for the other characters in the narration, the audience red herring is more dany than anyone else imvho and I'm dying on that hill for now, thanks for coming to my ted talk but like I don't see how it's anyone but jon personally X°D

[selkiewife]

Since I was re-reading it today (!) could I ask for the commentary meme:

"He was murmuring something again, she turned sharply and took him in. He slept curled in on himself, like a dog. Even unconscious he tried to take up as little space as possible. “Robb…. Robb…” his breath became sporadic, rapid, distressed. “Robb….!”

These were the cruelest dreams. The dreams of the eldest Stark, The Young Wolf. Robb. She knew his name now. She had heard it enough times. Robb Stark. She hated him. Hated all the Starks. They had taken her brother and twisted him beyond recognition.

He began shouting Robb’s name. She crept back into bed and put her arms around him. Theon clung to her, his eyes staring through her.

“It’s alright… Theon. It’s alright. It was another nightmare. You’re fine.”

Theon turned those searing eyes on her and saw her for the first time. His eyes filled with humiliated tears and he bent his head.

“I’m sorry Asha… Robb… He’s gone…” A strangled sob escaped him.

Asha pulled him down onto the pillows and pulled the furs up around them as he continued to mumble his apologies- for keeping her up, for being so much trouble… Asha hated this part the most of all but she stroked his hair softly and held him until he began to drift back to sleep. She thought he was sleeping when he murmured brokenly the constant refrain, “I should have died with him. Where was I? I should have been with him.”

Asha felt angry tears forming in her eyes as she whispered fiercely into the darkness,

“No. You shouldn’t have been with him. You should never have been with him. You should have been with me.”"

@alleyskywalker asked about it's just a shadow you're seeing that he's chasing from this meme:

Thank you so much for sending this ask in! I was really so happy to see that you had commented on this fic because I wrote it so long ago!

The rest is under a cut since it got long:

This was my very first Asha POV fic. I believe that I had seen as much of the show that had aired up to that point (Season 6) and I had read both Theon and Asha’s POV chapters but I had not read the entire series yet. I read the entire series in order after finishing Asha’s chapters. So this was my first book inspired fic. And I wanted to explore the idea that caring for Theon reminded her of Alannys.

I was still relatively new to the world of fanfic and fandom. But I’d found the hurt/comfort fics first and decided that was very much how I wanted to spend all my time lol. So it seemed natural for me to fantasize about Asha comforting Theon. I am actually not sure if I had read Theon’s Winds sample chapter by this point, so I guess I just skipped ahead with this future fic and was hoping they were “somewhere safe and recovering in the north” lol.

I’m really not sure what I was doing with the line, The Young Wolf. Robb. She knew his name now. She had heard it enough times. I think it was because I had noticed that Asha never refers to Robb by name in the books but instead always refers to him as “The Young Wolf." I think I was trying to show that she is now gaining a better understanding of who he was as a person. Whereas before, she only knew Robb from his warrior reputation. Now she knows his first name and knows how important he was to Theon. BUT this line kind of makes me cringe now, because even though she never refers to him as “Robb” in the books that doesn’t mean she wouldn’t have known his name. lol.

When she starts talking about her hatred for the Starks, I was writing what I think she would have actually thought, but I was also responding to people in the fandom who constantly said things like “Theon was better off with the Starks.” Because that’s just not true. Yeah, Balon objectively sucked but, there was still Asha. There was still Alannys who loved him so much that her health drastically declined when he was taken away. There was still Dagmer and Rodrik the Reader.

I also really wanted to explore what it was like for Asha when the north took Theon hostage. How she suddenly found herself alone, the only child left between two parents struggling with their grief in very different ways. It must have felt almost as if Asha lost her whole family the night that Ned and Robert crushed them. She lost her two older brothers, her little brother, and her mother (because of how grief stricken she was) all at once.

And now she sees her brother who is so guilt ridden for betraying Robb, looking and acting so much like Alannys and she thinks about how her family would have been whole had it not been for Robert Baratheon and the Starks. I mean Balon is to blame too- but I just wanted to let her be openly critical of the Starks without any mitigation. 

Because Asha can be very hard on Theon and she also condemned his actions in Winterfell, I think readers sometimes get the wrong impression that Asha would be on the Starks’ side when it comes to Theon betraying the Starks. But, I think that’s a definite nah. Asha is definitely a character that need not wear Stark goggles since they objectively caused so much heartache to her family. And yeah, I know it’s nuanced and it’s not like the Starks loved having to hold a child hostage bla bla bla, but just let me have this lmao. Also there is also the feeling like, "I can talk shit about my lil bro, but no one else can."

The last line was actually the first one that came to me and was the reason I wrote this fic: “No. You shouldn’t have been with him. You should never have been with him. You should have been with me.” Theon thinks he should have died with Robb, but Asha feels like he shouldn’t have been put in that position in the first place. It also echoes back to the fact that when Alannys' mental and physical health declined so badly after her sons were taken from her, there had to be a part of Asha that was like, “Stop looking for them, look at me! I’m still here!” And when she sees that Theon is mourning “his brother” Robb, part of her is like, “I’m your true sister. And you should have always been with me.” I think that when she first met Theon again she saw him as a threat to everything she had worked for her whole life. But now, after all they have been through in the books, she has reverted to the way they probably were as children- with her being protective (and even possessive maybe?) with him. Like, "I would have been a better sibling to you than these damn Starks."

Anyway, I hope that was interesting and thanks again for the ask and for your kind comments on the fic as well! 🐙❤️

[rainhalydia]

I wasn't in fandom at the time, so I'm curious about how you felt, as a Throbb shipper, about GRRM confirming Robb didn't love Theon as much as he loved Jon? And how did Throbb shippers in general feel about it?

Well, I can’t say how Throbb shippers in general felt. Not that happy, I’d guess? I can tell how I felt and still feel about it, though I didn’t see that interview until long after the fact so I didn’t catch any drama anyway. To sum it up: I don’t care.

A much longer, rambling word-vomit under the cut:

I think I summed up my feelings very exactly, but I kept thinking a lot about this ask and having lots of opinions, so here we go. I’ll preface this long-ass rant by saying I have no professional training in literary analysis. I just read a lot, overthink everything and had two classes in college about literature.

First of all, this tendency to give great weight - i.e., to care at all - about what writers have to say about their own work is completely foreign to me. I mean it literally - the main framework of literary analysis I’ve encountered throughtout my education was basically centered around the text, and I very much adopt it without even giving it conscious thought. I don’t seek out interviews, addendums, essays, anything at all. Sometimes I read it if they fall on my lap. Such was the case with this interview.

It’s not that writers don’t have things to say, or that those things are not interesting or valuable or sometimes shed a new light on their work. It’s that at the end of the day they’re not important! Only canon is canon. I don’t mean to sound snob or pedantic, like the books are law or something. And any canon has a number of valid interpretations (within limits), they’re not absolute, they allow some wiggle room. But any text needs by definition to stand on its own without writers poking their heads inside the room to say how we should interpret it. If we need imput from the writers to do it, then the text is already bad, it failed, sorry. Interpretation is the reader’s job. In fact, it’s the reader’s prerrogative.

Much of this hipe around authors, I believe, has to do with the rise of social media and how close to the public writers suddenly were. And I feel that applies especially for authors like Martin, who are very talented and have created a very rich world that has become really popular. And ASOIAF is still ongoing. It’s natural that everyone wants to pick at his brain and know where the story is going!

And here I make my second very unpopular point: authors are not specialists in their own work.

He knows more than anyone about it, certainly, and currently Martin is probably the only person who knows how things will end (though we have plenty of bare bones the show left), but he is, as he has admited himself, a gardener. The story was bound to get away from him, given his own writting style. The group of people who will be specialists on his work don’t include him, and they don’t even exist yet. They will only emerge when he’s stopped writing (so probably after his death) and his work has ended (if it was finished or not). Then people can read every single thing he has ever written, which is much more than ASOIAF, and analyse it to death, pick it apart from every single angle, the ones Martin intended to be there and the ones he didn’t.

Again, I don’t mean to come across as snobbish and say Martin does not know his own work, characters, creation, etc. He does! But no writer can leave all their biases behind when they start writing, so these books are not neutral to begin with. Add to it the lots and lots of variables readers will bring when they interpret the text, and any book is always going to be more than the author intends by default.

If my argument seems absurd, let me point out that it has already happened to a certain degree: my own interpretation from reading ASOIAF is that it is full of anti-war, anti-violence messages, and yet from it has sprung an adaptation that, in my own interpretation, glorifies war and violence to a ridiculous degree. I’m not alone in these opinions, btw. They’re pretty common in fandom spaces, so I’m sure I didn’t pull them out of thin air. We can argue until we’re blue in the face that the Ds can’t read anything for shit, they certainly don’t do themselves any favors, but you know, they interpreted the books well enough to correctly guess who was Jon’s mother and get permission to adapt it in the first place. I’ve since seen people (I’m not naming names, anyone still reading will just have to take my word for it, but I swear they do exist) defend that the show is a faithful adaptation of the books and that the glorification of war was there too, and others say that the show didn’t actually glorify war, it had an anti-war message! Who is wrong? Well, I don’t know. As I said, the GRRM’s specialists are yet to come, and I’m certainly not one of them. What I believe, however, is that all of us brought our own biases to the same text, interpreted it according to them, and came to different, often conflicting conclusions.

See also what GRRM said about the partnership between Jaehaerys and Alysanne and what most people made of their relationship from Fire and Blood. See the sept sex/rape scene controversy. See the Dany/Drogo controversy.

Do you get why I put little weight in Martin’s interviews to form my opinion? So given that and my own background, I’ll chose my own interpretation of the text rather than Martin’s apocrypha.

What does the book canon, and the book canon alone, say about Robb’s feelings for Theon? Well, unless new material is released, we’ll just never know for sure, because Robb isn’t a pov character. We do have Theon’s side of things - he has a certain affection for Robb, he’s more of a brother than his own brothers, he wishes he had died with him or at least that he had been there at the moment of Robb’s death, depending on how sincere he feels like being. We also know a little bit of what other characters thought of their relationship. Bran says Robb admired Theon and enjoyed his company, and it’s implied that he finds this baffling. He’s also jealous that Robb spends more time with Theon and other adults doing adult things than with his brothers. And though I’ve talked at lenght about interpretation and wiggle room to understand things, it’s also pretty evident that Robb is down to hear Theon talk about his sexual conquests in some detail as long as his brothers aren’t around.

Of course, Bran is a child and much as he loves Robb, their time together is cut short and Robb is not his main concern anyway. We get most material about Robb and Theon’s relationship from Cat’s pov. There’s a lot we can analyse and Damien had already done a great not-meta about it, but sadly he’s since deleted, thank you to the demons who got on his case, but for me the most damning piece of evidence that Robb feels very strongly for Theon is this:

“Robb will avenge his brothers. Ice can kill as dead as fire. Ice was Ned’s greatsword. Valyrian steel, marked with the ripples of a thousand foldings, so sharp I feared to touch it. Robb’s blade is dull as a cudgel compared to Ice. It will not be easy for him to get Theon’s head off, I fear. The Starks do not use headsmen. Ned always said that the man who passes the sentence should swing the blade, though he never took any joy in the duty.”

So to unpack what is going on: nearly drowing in grief, Cat rambles to Brienne about lots of things, including Theon’s impending death sentence. By Northern dumb tradition, Robb must be the one to behead Theon, his former best friend turned enemy, turned betrayer, turned brother-killer. And she says that it won’t be easy for him to do it.

Now, it can be argued that this is partly because of the sword. They’ve lost their sharp valyrian steel and Robb uses an inferior blade, not as sharp. I reject this interpretation as the only explanation (and here comes my own biases) because she mentions the headsman right after. A headsman might be more experienced, but it’s not like he’d have valyrian steel to do it either. Rather, I think she’s talking about how being able to pass Theon off to be killed by a headsman would be easier on Robb psychologically, but it’s not really an option, so Robb will have to suffer.

At this point, to Robb’s knowledge, Theon has: 1) betrayed his trust and used the ruse of negociations with Balon to escape; 2) attacked the northern shore and enslaved his people; 3) attacked and took control of his home; 4) made his brothers hostages; 5) killed his brothers; 6) denied his brothers the right to be buried in a decent way; and finally, 7) burned their bodies and exposed them for all of the North to see.

And after all this, having to be the one to kill Theon will make him suffer.

We know one of the moments Robb gets the angriest in the books is when Bran is threatened by the wildlings. He is the acting Lord and keeping his little brothers safe is his responsability. He nearly bites Theon’s head off when Theon saves Bran in a risky way and we know that was uncharacteristic because Theon is still sulking about that a whole year later. So his siblings are dear to him, but even after Theon does everything from steps 1 to 4, he’s still sure they’re not in danger and that Theon won’t do anything to them. That’s how much he trusts Theon. It takes literal murder to make him change his mind.

But then he does change his mind. He believes Theon did those awful, awful things to his brothers. After that knowledge has had time to settle in, after he believes the worst of Theon, he has this amazing convo with Cat that I’ll quote whole because it’s amazing:

“Enough.” For just an instant Robb sounded more like Brandon than his father. “No man calls my lady of Winterfell a traitor in my hearing, Lord Rickard.” When he turned to Catelyn, his voice softened. “If I could wish the Kingslayer back in chains I would. You freed him without my knowledge or consent … but what you did, I know you did for love. For Arya and Sansa, and out of grief for Bran and Rickon. Love’s not always wise, I’ve learned. It can lead us to great folly, but we follow our hearts … wherever they take us. Don’t we, Mother?”

Is that what I did? “If my heart led me into folly, I would gladly make whatever amends I can to Lord Karstark and yourself.”

Lord Rickard’s face was implacable. “Will your amends warm Torrhen and Eddard in the cold graves where the Kingslayer laid them?” He shouldered between the Greatjon and Maege Mormont and left the hall.

Robb made no move to detain him. “Forgive him, Mother.”

“If you will forgive me.”

“I have. I know what it is to love so greatly you can think of nothing else.”

Catelyn bowed her head. “Thank you.” I have not lost this child, at least.

So we know that what is going on here is that Robb is buttering Cat up before breaking the news of his marriage to Jeyne to her. One of the possible interpretations supported by the text is that Jeyne is in love with Robb and Robb is not in love with her. It’s a common reading that he married her out of honor and to avoid a possible Jon Snow situation. During their marriage, he seems to grow fond of her - Cat notices he likes her company better, and her brother’s, and that he laughs when he is with the Westerlings - but he also keeps some distance. She’s afraid of Grey Wind, which pretty much means being afraid of a part of him. In turn, he’s attentive, courteous, and a bit touched and annoyed at her public displays of affection.

Then there is this gem:

“His heir failed him.” Robb ran a hand over the rough weathered stone. “I had hoped to leave Jeyne with child … we tried often enough, but I’m not certain…”

And this is more Damien’s not-meta than my own, but once you see it, you can’t ever unsee it. Compare the bolded parts in that quote in the first Cat-Robb convo to the part bolded in the second one, put them side to side and tell me you can’t see the difference. In the first one, Robb basically spells it out that he’s made a mistake out of love, that love turned him into a fool, but it was stronger than him. At that point of the narrative, Robb’s biggest mistake (and notably it was HIS mistale, it was not a case of the narrative screwing him over) was to free Theon. A mistake that caused him to lose his brothers, castle and a significant chunk of political standing. The consequences of marrying Jeyne, which is pretty much only to lose the Freys, don’t even compare - especially because the Stark faction believes they can win their support back.

And this love that made him act like a fool is further described in the second bolded part of that quote. He loved so greatly that he could think of nothing else. That is some passion there, folks. Even considering that he’s trying to get Cat on his side, it strikes me as so sincere and heartfelt. And again, maybe it’s my own biases showing, but that sounds like an all-consuming love, the kind of love that doesn’t go away easily. I don’t see that same depth of emotion on the second bolded quote… they tried often enough. Does it add up with the first part? I don’t think so.

My conclusion, and forgive me if the shipper gogles come in, is that the love that hurt him, that consumed him, is the love he had for Theon. Not for his wife. But it was in the past, one might say. His marriage was just beginning, he and Jeyne grow closer, etc. I’ll quote two more bits:

“I cannot speak to that. There is much confusion in any war. Many false reports. All I can tell you is that my nephews claim it was this bastard son of Bolton’s who saved the women of Winterfell, and the little ones. They are safe at the Dreadfort now, all those who remain.”

“Theon,” Robb said suddenly. “What happened to Theon Greyjoy? Was he slain?”

Here we are nearing the Red Wedding. Some Freys come to pretend to make peace and pressure for a wedding to Edmure and they bring news of the battle of Winterfell. Professional writers don’t often abuse the “suddenly” like us poor fic writers, so when he says it was sudden, i believe it was sudden. I believe it came out of nowhere, in fact, and that Robb was the only one in that room considering Theon’s fate.

Roose Bolton removed a ragged strip of leather from the pouch at his belt. “My son sent this with his letter.”

Ser Wendel turned his fat face away. Robin Flint and Smalljon Umber exchanged a look, and the Greatjon snorted like a bull. “Is that … skin?” said Robb.

“The skin from the little finger of Theon Greyjoy’s left hand. My son is cruel, I confess it. And yet … what is a little skin, against the lives of two young princes? You were their mother, my lady. May I offer you this … small token of revenge?“ 

Part of Catelyn wanted to clutch the grisly trophy to her heart, but she made herself resist. “Put it away. Please.”

“Flaying Theon will not bring my brothers back,” Robb said. “I want his head, not his skin.”

Aside from Catelyn, who is torn, and maybe the Greatjon (I don’t know what snorting like a bull is supposed to convey), no one in that room approves of torturing Theon, they’re all rightly creeped out. But no one would blink an eye if Robb had ordered Theon flayed alive. Instead, he commands the torture to stop. Of course it’s the only decent thing to do, but let’s all appreciate how the character who is always arguing for peace, end of conflict and letting things go for the sake of the living and what can still be saved instead of more violence, is tempted by it. Robb is the only one who shares the full extent of Cat’s grief here, but he’s also the only one to try and stop the senseless punishment.

I joke all the time about how Throbb is canon, and it’s mostly jokes. They are not canon in the sense that Cat and Ned are canon, and I don’t think we’ll have any more facts added to their story together, there probably won’t be any flashbacks that hint at a romantic relationship between them. But looking at the text alone, what we have of it as of now, it’s possible to support a canonical reading for this ship. This interpretation is there in the text if you want to see it. In fact, some things make more sense if Robb was in love with Theon.

And you know, having a ship be supported by canon is not actually a condition that needs to be met to ship anything. It’s just something I particularly need to get into it. But even if you read Theon and Robb as just friends, it’s a reach to say that Robb didn’t love Theon.

Of course, we have Robb demonstrating affection towards Jon in the books too. He is Robb’s chosen heir, to Cat’s despair. Despite all the negative propaganda bastards get and the fact that the mother he so respected and loved disliked and distrusted Jon, Robb considers him a full brother, to compare to Sansa’s constant “half-brother” from the beginning of her journey. They’re seen having a good time together (they have a horse race in their very first appearance in the books, and Mance recalls them getting into trouble together as children), so they enjoy each other’s company.

Yet there’s also an undercurrent of sibling rivalry between them, seen from Jon’s pov. We have this bit with Benjen:

Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. “You don’t miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall.”

Jon swelled with pride. “Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.”

This is hilarious to me. My uncle paid me a compliment for being perceptive, a skill not at all related to martial skills! Time to compare my martial skills to my brother’s, even though we’re both 14 and there’s lots of more tried warriors in the world and we haven’t even had our last growh spurt! This is sure to impress a seasoned ranger!

Of course we know Jon’s rivalry towards Robb comes from his bastard status, but it’s interesting to me that it’s something that centers around Robb alone; he doesn’t compare himself to Bran or Rickon as far as I remember. That can be explained by their very similar ages and growing up together, I think. Jon has the advantage of being older than his other true born brothers.

Jon also says this:

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame.

To Jon - and to the other Stark children - Robb is often the model to be emmulated. I won’t dig up all the times they hold him up as the ideal of bravery. Jon’s feelings are not unique in this sense, though they are when it comes to the rivalry. They all admire Robb. From Robb’s side, I don’t remember hints of him admiring Jon or any of his siblings. He certainly loves them, likes them, and enjoys spending time with Jon at the very least.

But Theon is the one Robb admires in text. Bran says it, and Theon too:

“There is nothing small about the letter I bear,” Theon said, “and the offer he makes is one I suggested to him.”

“This wolf king heeds your counsel, does he?” The notion seemed to amuse Lord Balon.

“He heeds me, yes. I’ve hunted with him, trained with him, shared meat and mead with him, warred at his side. I have earned his trust. He looks on me as an older brother, he—”

Readers often dismiss this as Theon’s garden variety empty bragging. To be fair, Theon very much distorts reality in his head to fit his own idea of how things should be, but this is one of the few times when he’s not doing that. He’s genuinely proud that Robb thinks so well of him. And since he’s so sensitive about what people think of him and people not giving him the credit he thinks he deserves, I’m ready to believe his account of facts this one time.

What I get from canon, regarding who Robb loves the most out of Jon and Theon, is that he loves them differently. He might even love Jon more by ASOS; it’s a wonder that we have hints that he still cares about Theon at all by the end, after the murders of who we know are the miller boys, but who Robb thinks are Bran and Rickon.

He had different relationships with them. Even if you reject the reading of Throbb as romantic, friends and siblings are not interchangable, even if you’re out there calling close friends brothers or if your brother is your best friend. It’s different sorts of affection. At the beginning of the series, Robb and Theon seemed closer to me than Robb and Jon - let’s not forget that Jon’s favorite is Arya, and the biggest family drama at that time has to do with Jon and Cat. They grow even closer as they go to war together, and then they’re pushed apart by circumstances and by Theon’s actions.

But okay, this is not long enough yet, so let’s say that this is an invalid framework of analysis and Martin’s word of god has as much weight as canon, and that in fact, we’re 100% certain that Robb loved Jon more than Theon.

Why does it even need to be a competition? No one holds it against Ygritte that Jon loves Arya more. Asha has a steady boyfriend that she’d gladly marry, and still she takes risk after risk for Theon. Ned was probably the greatest love of Cat’s life, but her interactions with her brother and uncle are still emotional and moving in great part because of the depth of her love for them.

Robb loving Jon more doesn’t take anything away from Theon. He doesn’t love Theon less because he loves Jon more, love is not a finite resource. And Robb loved Theon plenty, be it in a familial, friends or romantic way. If it diminished, that was a result of Theon’s choices alone.

[renlyisright]

Season 7 Episode 7 - Hey, We Won at Scheming, Who Would Have Guessed

Welp, I finished the master’s thesis before I finished the show. I can’t exactly say that I have grown up with these characters because most of them have stopped growing up for death-related reasons. Well, there’s the Stark kids who are still alive, and their careers are all on up-swing.

In this final episode of the season, we visit the ruins of the dragon pit, and they make me wonder just how large it must have been when the dragons were still super large.

The truce meeting is about to start, but Daenerys has brought her army to stand near King’s Landing, just in case. Both the Unsullied and the Dothraki. Euron’s massive fleet is protecting the Blackwater, against Daenerys’ fleet of… five ships.

The negotiators are allowed entrance, and are brought to the third hill of King’s Landing, and the one tourist attraction we haven’t seen yet, the Dragon Pit. Which is a big place, but sadly a ruin. Being a large pile of already-cut stone right in the city with no current use never helps any historical building, those stones can be put to a much better use.

As this meeting includes almost everyone of any importance, and also some sidekicks, there’s more reunions. Tyrion says that he missed Bronn. Bronn seems to have his business in order, bringing Cersei’s enemies to her and thinking of retiring with his reward if the negotiation ends with heads on spikes. But if Daenerys wins in the end...

Everyone arrives to the arena, and the Hound begins the game by threatening the Mountain. There’s clearly a duel being set up between these two death-cheaters, but as at any time either of them can be killed by, well, anything, I’m not holding my breath for a super smackdown between them.

Daenerys arrives fashionably late, and brings her two dragons to the dragon pit, and… how big exactly this place must have been in the beginning? Drogon’s wings almost cover the middle of the arena by themselves.

As Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion predicted, their enemies just laugh about the matter before seeing the evidence. After that, they present a bit of theater, as Cersei later reveals. Euron proclaims that he’s moving his fleet to the Iron Islands, away from the Dead, and Cersei gives a practised speech of accepting the truce.

So did they have intel of the evidence, or did Cersei make plans for the low-odds-event that the thing she has ridiculed every time it has come up is actually true. If so, that’s remarkably good planning, from her.

The showing of the evidence was quite a show, Jon used the one wight they had in great detail for everyone to see. Qyburn was especially interested… well, he has practised getting one almost dead man up and running, so searching this body for any clues for advancing the scientific understanding of life and death must intrigue him… Let’s hope he doesn’t create a new White Walker in the middle of the Red Keep.

Cersei asks Jon to promise to go back to the North and stay there. Jon can’t promise that, so the negotiation ends, just like that. Tyrion and Daenerys say that Jon should have just lied and not been so Neddy. But just because others do something universally agreed to be bad, it doesn’t mean you should too. Anyway, Cersei walks out and Tyrion goes to speak to him alone, as he matters the least if he gets killed.

But he doesn’t, even after coaxing Cersei to kill him for what he did. Cersei is too shocked to give the word, and it could also be that she simply can’t give people what they ask from her, it’s completely unnatural to her. She blames Tyrion for killing Tywin, which opened them for their enemies and brought about the dead of the rest of the kids. The legacy of Tywin Lannister… you know, if the only thing keeping everyone from attacking your family is their fear of you, that does not a good legacy make. The legacy of Ned Stark was the North supporting first Robb and then Jon out of respect to him, the legacy of Tywin Lannister was everyone piling up on the Lannisters once he was out of the way.

The result of Cersei and Tyrion’s discussion is that Cersei proclaims to join them in the fight against the Dead, while expecting nothing good to come to herself for that decision. Yes, what did we speak about lying just now?

Speaking of Ned Stark’s legacy, Jon and Theon talk about it. Theon betrayed his memory, but, as Jon says, he was more of a father to Theon than Balon ever was. And so they can use that bond to reconcile, and Jon can encourage Theon to take charge and take the lead of Yara’s men.

Symbolism, Theon is starting to change his weaknesses into strengths. This is symbolised by allowing the Ironborn he is fighting to kick him to the nuts, to no effect. Yes, this is symbolism speaking.

The man says to Theon “Stay down, or I’ll kill you”. When Theon has the upper hand, he bashes his head in with a rock for that mercy. I would say that the Ironborn have a specifically violent way to solve disputes, but… nope. Not specifically, not at all. But Theon gets to be the leader of the pride, and gets to go against the Ramsay-placeholder enemy to confront his trauma. Someone should invent better therapy methods.

In Winterfell, the winter continues to fall from the sky. Littlefinger tries to chaos things up, but his time’s up. There’s no room for him anymore in this new magical and thriller-pace world.

I read A Dance With Dragons last winter, and while I liked most of it, like the writing style, the characters, seeing more of non-royals, and the new locales, the ending was a disappointment. Or rather, that there wasn’t an ending. There’s more books to go (and I hope to get to read them), but this one just… stopped when the page count went over 1000. It had the same problem as the fourth one, people spent a lot of time going from one place to another, so that when they arrived the book was almost over (or in Victarion’s case, it was over), and the end result was just a list of cliffhangers. Like, imagine ending A Clash of Kings just before Blackwater, or last season before the Battle of the Bastards. It felt like the arc of the book was incomplete, and I wasn’t given a reason to care about the new side plots, like which of them will actually matter and which just padded the book until it had to end early?

The funny thing of course is that this show has now the opposite problem of jumping from one set piece to another without build-up or showing of the journey. And when you can’t keep up with this new world, you lose the game of thrones.

Littlefinger schemes a wedge between Sansa and Arya. He doesn’t want a trained assassin in the same castle as he is, now that he has supported Sansa to ladyship and is perhaps looking for a way to make her a queen as well… that was his weakness, stick to just getting power and you’d have much easier job, but no, you have to include getting a specific woman into your plans and that’s when you make mistakes. But it doesn’t matter anymore what he schemes, as magic has entered Winterfell.

Bran can cheat. He can see the past, and apparently can see exactly where and when he wants. So he traced Littlefinger’s steps, and found out all his betrayals. Many of them Sansa already knew, so the rest mustn’t have come as a shock. So the Starks, who value honesty and honor, now can see if they are betrayed or lied to. Once Jon gets to Winterfell, Bran can tell him what Cersei said after they left. Political intrigue, a corner block and most of the wall of the show, has suddenly become useless. The Littlefingers of the world can’t scheme anymore against the Starks. They have Won At Scheming.

The dagger, the dagger, is revealed to be originally Petyr’s. As I said earlier, the only way the revelation could matter anymore would be if it was someone’s who is still living, or someone’s whom we’d never think to order Bran’s assassination. And here we are, it was the Chaos Man. I’m not sure if the dates add up, how did he know of Bran’s fall so that he could hire the assassin, when he was in King’s Landing at the time? Maybe he wasn’t? And why use his own expensive dagger and lie that it was Tyrion’s, when a simple Lannister knife would have worked much better?

In the book the answer was different. Tyrion figured out that it was Joffrey, who stole his father’s dagger and gave it to the assassin. He never confirmed it with anyone, and anyway Joffrey died moments later. I can fully well believe it from Joffrey. But it’s been so long since Joffrey died that at this point one more evil deed to his name wouldn’t mean much. So the culprit is now Littlefinger, and wow, listing all his schemes like that tells how without him the status quo would likely be just where it was in the beginning. He has a lot of blood on his hands. Daenerys and the Dead would still be wild cards, though.

And so the king of the ash heap, Petyr Baelish, dies in the dark main hall of Winterfell, in the middle of the mess he’s spent years to create, without achieving his goals, without any allies and with absolutely nobody going to miss him.

As I have said, for being such a dark and gritty show, the villains don’t get any better ends than those who try to do better, and their legacies are usually worse.

Speaking of both the villains and those who try to do better, Cersei informs Jaime that nope, we are not going anywhere, she used the neat trick called lying. Euron went to get mercenaries with elephants (ooh!) from Essos.

This is enough for Jaime, who storms away, after telling Cersei to have the Mountain kill him for it if she so desires. In the end, she doesn’t, even after threatening him with that. But after listening to her lie and cheat for years, Jaime just says “I don’t believe you” and leaves. See, consequences.

Poor Cersei, losing everyone’s trust and being entirely alone at the end of the episode. Only her massive armies to keep her on the throne. Which is a funny thing, now that I think about it. She has managed to antagonize everybody, but because she has killed everyone in King’s Landing who has criticized her, she gets to still rule, because there is no one else in the city to take the crown from her. She’s taking advantage of the fact that no new important characters are going to be introduced at this point. Euron was the last one, in the season 6 of 8, and even he feels like he exists only as a mid boss so Daenerys’ invasion isn’t too easy, to be killed once fleets don’t matter anymore.

Of course Cersei takes advantage of the fact that her enemies are scary. New Targaryen invasion, with the Dothraki and Unsullied. Nothing like the good old rulers we have here in Westeros, who may blow up the most holy building on the continent to escape a trial and kill the servants of the main religion, but are at least… from the same continent?

It’s still weird that the Seven is the main religion, when it has been the most useless one in actual action. Did they ever do anything? When the Old Gods were driven from the South, were the Seven doing anything to support their believers? Well, did the Old Gods? Does the Drowned God? Well, if Euron’s fleet’s speed is a boon from the Drowned God, that would explain a lot.

The winter comes to King’s Landing as well. Snow will be next season’s color. Along with darkness, but if the scenery gets any darker I won’t see anything on screen.

A song of fire: Sam arrives at Winterfell, safe and sound. He must have found out about his father and brother on the way, but it’s not mentioned. He meets with Bran, and by giving him a hint of where to look, Bran sees the wedding of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. So they were legally married, and their child, Jon, is not a bastard, but the legal heir to the Throne, Aegon Targaryen. Boom. And there’s him and Daenerys being all Targaryeny.

Bigger thing than the heir business, is that Rhaegar is no longer sullied by the rape, which is the main thing he is remembered for. “He was a noble and great knight from the stories, a great prince, and a rapist whose horribleness brought about the rebellion.” But was that lie better than the truth? Or did someone, last generation’s Littlefinger, spin the story for the worst so a proper war could get started?

Anyway, has Daenerys fought all her battles so that she can give the throne to the rightful heir, who is not her, the Breaker of Chains?

A song of ice: Sansa and Arya talk, and remember their father’s words of working together: The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Legacy.

In the Eastwatch-by-the-sea, bad things happen. A dragon is a nuke option, and the Night King uses it gladly. Its power seems to be enough to destroy the Wall and remove the spells as well. And so the dead march to the lands beyond the Wall, bringing a new night with them.

After all the hype of the Wall, it couldn’t even put up a fight when the dead finally arrived. Beric Dondarrion and Tormund try to run to safety, and I can’t see if they succeed. But I’d presume that there would be a clearer shot if they died. And, well, we are talking of Beric Dondarrion here. He could always play dead.

But guess who from the Night Watch survived the apocalyptic event of the onslaught of the dead and the destruction of the Wall? And did it just by not being where the attack happened? My favourite watchman, Dolorous Edd. How does he do it?

By the way, Night Watch, Long Night, Night King, connecting these took too long for me.

[stormcloudrising]

A Match with Someone Brave, Gentle and STRONG

April 6, 2019

Ok, the title of this post is not a direct quote but if you are familiar with the books, you know the one to which I refer.  However, here is the correct wording of the quote.

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me." 

A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

Before you read much more of this brief essay, I advice you to watch this theory video by Joe Magician.  I think it’s one of the best and most important fandom theories that I’ve seen in ages.  In it he shows all the book evidence and comments from GRRM that points to the extinct House Strong from the Riverlands being an ancient branch of House Stark. The video is about 30 minutes but I guarantee that you won’t be disappointed in watching it all the way through. And this is true even if you are not a Jonsa stan because truthfully, the theory is that good. 

There is a second companion video by Crowfood’s Daughter that discusses Ser Duncan the Tall but for now, I want to discuss what Joe Magician proposes in his video and how it my pertain to Jon and Sansa by posting some book passages.  These excerpts will have greater meaning after you have watched the video and so I again advice you do so first.

Good...you’ve watched the video...hopefully!  Now that you see how House Strong might have been a separated branch of House Stark, you most likely can see the additional importance of Ned using the word “strong” in his promise to Sansa.  If you’re like me, you are also probably wondering if GRRM dropped any clues using the word that suggests we are meant to see Jon as the “strong” candidate who will marry Sansa.  Well the answer is of course yes.  There are actually quite a few book clues that point in this direction.  Let’s look at some of them.

This first excerpt is from AGOT and occurs when the Lord Commander tells Jon that his father was executed in Kings Landing. 

"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen. "My lord, what of my sisters? Arya and Sansa, they were with my father, do you know—"

"Pycelle makes no mention of them, but doubtless they'll be treated gently. I will ask about them when I write." Mormont shook his head. "This could not have happened at a worse time. If ever the realm needed a strong king … there are dark days and cold nights ahead, I feel it in my bones …" He gave Jon a long shrewd look. "I hope you are not thinking of doing anything stupid, boy."

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

The strong king that the realm needs is of course Jon.  This next passage is about Ghost after he is injured by Orrell’s Eagle on the Skirling pass.

As if in answer, Ghost struggled to his feet.

"The wolf is strong," the ranger said. "Ebben, water. Stonesnake, your skin of wine. Hold him still, Jon."

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

As Jon himself tells us, Ghost is a part of him, which means that Jon is also part of Ghost.  This fact is brought home to the reader in several ways including Melissandre’s vision Jon switching from wolf to man and back again.  Mel’s vision is of course a portent of Jon’s eventual death at the hands of his men and him warging into Ghost just as he dies.  The attack on Ghost by Orrel’s eagle is a similar omen as it presage the future ambush on Jon by the same bird as well as the neck wound he suffers when he is killed by his men.  

Here is another instance when strong is associated with Jon and the Starks of Winterfell...this time by Maester Aemon

Grenn gave Pyp a strange look. "He doesn't know."

"Jon," said Maester Aemon, "much and more happened while you were away, and little of it good. Balon Greyjoy has crowned himself again and sent his longships against the north. Kings sprout like weeds at every hand and we have sent appeals to all of them, yet none will come. They have more pressing uses for their swords, and we are far off and forgotten. And Winterfell . . . Jon, be strong . . . Winterfell is no more . . ."

"No more?" Jon stared at Aemon's white eyes and wrinkled face. "My brothers are at Winterfell. Bran and Rickon . . ."

A Storm of Swords - Jon VI

These next three excerpts are extremely important.  I make this statement because the memory of something Ned said to Jon occurs in three of his chapters and so the words obviously have had a strong (no pun intended) impact on his thinking.  It’s also important because of one of Jon’s dreams that I will reference shortly.

All the same, Jon found himself hoping that Styr's fears proved well founded. If the gods are good, a patrol will chance by and put an end to this. "No wall can keep you safe," his father had told him once, as they walked the walls of Winterfall. "A wall is only as strong as the men who defend it." The wildlings might have a hundred and twenty men, but four defenders would be enough to see them off, with a few well-placed arrows and perhaps a pail of stones.

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

"Yes." Jon Snow glanced up at the Wall, towering over them like a cliff of ice. A hundred leagues from end to end, and seven hundred feet high. The strength of the Wall was its height; the length of the Wall was its weakness. Jon remembered something his father had said once. A wall is only as strong as the men who stand behind it. The men of the Night's Watch were brave enough, but they were far too few for the task that confronted them.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

The raven flapped its wings. "Kill, kill."

Sigorn's father, the old Magnar, had been crushed beneath the falling stair during his attack on Castle Black. I would feel the same if someone asked me to make common cause with the Lannisters, Jon told himself. "Your father tried to kill us all," he reminded Sigorn. "The Magnar was a brave man, yet he failed. And if he had succeeded … who would hold the Wall?" He turned away from the Thenns.

"Winterfell's walls were strong as well, but Winterfell stands in ruins today, burned and broken. A wall is only as good as the men defending it."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

The possibility that House Strong was an ancient branch of House Stark adds additional emphasis to Ned’s words to Jon about walls needing strong men to defend.  It suggests that the magic in both the great Wall and Winterfell is tied to the Starks in someway.  This is an idea that has been popular in the fandom for ages but Joe Magician’s theory backs it up.

Winterfell “fell” to Theon because Bran and Rickon were still children.  Bran was injured and the two had not yet grown into the “strong men” they need to be to defend their home and the realm.  Things might also have been made easier for the Greyjoys because Theon is an adoptive Stark and so he can be considered an adoptive strong who instead of manning the walls, opened the doors to the enemy.  The Starks/Strongs were defeated from within.

You need “strong” men to defend the great Wall and the wall of Winterfell or in other words, you need Starks to defend the walls and protect the realm. The Wall protects the realm from the Others and strong men (Starks) have defended it for thousands of years.  If the Great Wall falls, Winterfell is the last major defense to stop the Others from making it to the southern part of the kingdom. The Starks defeated the Others at Winterfell during the last Long Night and the strong men manning the walls will likely have to do so again.

In a way, the duality of the Starks and their direwolves is mirrored in the Starks and the Strongs.  The Starks are the Strongs and the Strongs are the Starks.  This brings me to Jon’s dream that I mentioned earlier.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

The word strong is not used in the passage describing Jon’s dream but it doesn’t need to be for one to see how Ned’s teachings have taken root in him. He is the last man standing but he is a Stark, which means that he is also a Strong and so even though he is alone, he will defend the Great Wall and the wall of Winterfell. Note how he also sees himself as the Lord of Winterfell defending the wall.

One of the clues that pointed Ned to the truth about Cersei and Jaime was the blond hair of their three kids as well as Jon Arryn’s last words, “the seed is Strong.”  Lysa took it to mean that her husband was talking about Sweet Robin but as Ned discovered, he was talking about the Baratheons always producing black hair children...including all of Robert’s bastards.

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell's, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well. He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

A man’s seed is his gift to his future generations and so Varamyr’s thought that the “gift was strong in Snow,” has similar meaning to the “seed is strong.”  The strong seed of Jon’s ancestors is why he and his siblings are wargs.

There are many other instances in the books where the use of the word “strong” can now be seen to have double meaning because the knowledge of this probable connection between House Strong and House Stark.  And it is not just in scenes with Jon.  The inferences can be seen with all of the Stark children.

Now, I’m sure that there will be those who will argue that Ned’s quote points to Gendry as the “strong” character who will marry Sansa and to that I would simply say...NO!  That argument is really not worth much more discussion than NO.  Yes, the phrase absolutely identifies Gendry Mya and Robert’s remaining bastards as being from his loins.  However, Gendry is not a point of view character and so we only get a brief mention of his arc from Arya’s point of view.  And his arc is never at anytime tied to Sansa.  

The daughter of Winterfell is not going to marry a character that is basically off the pages for most of the books.  She will marry an important point of view character and the one who fulfills this role and whose own arc is closely tied to Sansa over and over is Jon Snow!  The End!

[keprambles]

(GoT) Theon Greyjoy | A Stark by TheGaroStudios Artist notes: "You are a Greyjoy and... You are a Stark" I've been meaning to do a tribute about Theon for awhile. I think the character arch of Theon is by far one of the best ones in the show. I don't think we really appreciate him as a character and I hope with this we can all see where he comes from and where he'll end up. and we must also underline Alfie Allen's acting. He is just amazing. WOHOO! Game of Thrones is back !!  My notes: I like this video but have a huge problem with the premise and that is not related to how good the video is. I know a lot of people like this premise and value it intensely so, I will put my opinion below a cut.  It’s SUPER LONG. 

I like any well put together Theon video. That said, thematically I don’t love this one even if I love the art. IMO Theon’s relationship to the Starks is the least important and interesting thing about him. I dislike the idea that redemption for what he did to them is the core of his arc because redemption, to me, is worthless. You can’t live your life looking for forgiveness you may never achieve. You should always do better. You should do your best not to hurt people who are close to you but you cannot and should not make their forgiveness your purpose. (mini real life rant)(mini real life rant)(mini real life rant)(mini real life rant) You will lose. Even if they forgive you, you will lose. I promise you this. I saw this A LOT in rehab. I went to inpatient care for severe alcoholism and have been sober since like 2014. While I was there I saw a lot of people try and 12 Step it, and like that works for lots of people but the people it failed for were the ones who NEEDED to be forgiven for the TERRIBLE shit they did in active addiction.  You cannot take back the terrible things you do. You cannot ever do enough good to guarantee forgiveness. No one actually even owes it to you. If you make it the core of your life, you may never achieve it and if you do you’d be shocked at how empty that feeling actually is.  You are way better off changing your behavior for yourself. Or in my case you adopt a dog and you do it for your dog. The point is you look to the future and present and not the past. It is 3000x more productive. I do not buy Jon Snow’s “You’re a Greyjoy and Stark” changing Theon’s behavior. I do think it’s what he wanted to hear...But like...It’s stupid. Theon was going to save Yara anyway, that’s why he wanted to talk to Dany.  (mini real life rant)(mini real life rant)(mini real life rant)(mini real life rant) Also the Starks kinda sucked: 1.They  to war with Theon’s family (I know Balon started it) 2. Killed members of his family in said war and destroyed huge parts of his home. 3. Ripped him from the only home he ever knew, without taking A SINGLE Iron man with them because the point was to brainwash Theon into becoming a more palatable “Stark-like” lord. This under the excuse of him being a “Ward” but he was NOT a ward. Wards don’t have to stay with their foster family until their father DIES. Wards don’t live under fear of “honorable execution” from age 10 onwards.  4. Theon would have been killed if Balon ever rebelled again. Ned thinking this was an actual deterrent was stupid, Balon was FINE with losing Theon and planned to rebel once he had the strength to do so...See also Balon REBELLING AGAIN BEFORE THEON EVEN GETS TO PYKE. 3. Poor Alannys Harlaw , Theon’s mother who isn’t in the show visibly, but genuinely loved her children, of which like Cat she is sure are mostly dead and loses her mind, sitting in a tower all day crying for her “baby Theon.”  4. Theon was treated at best with scorn by the Northmen, THE ONLY person who grew to like him at all was Robb who was a baby when he got there. Like you can’t tell in the show and no one says anyone’s ages in the show but Theon is like 5 years older than Robb. They were not peers. He was a literal 5 year old at best when Theon got there.  5. It was really hard for Theon to see a family built on love like the Starks knowing he could never be part of it. This is because...They wouldn’t let him. Ned knew he might have to kill Theon so he kept his distance. Cat didn’t like any child at Winterfell who was not one of her own children. All her children besides Robb took her lead with Theon, with Sansa even taking Cat’s lead with Jon. (I like Cat but this is a character flaw of hers that makes sense and has consequences though not the ones the show says but like, another rant) I could go on.  Like even if you don’t think these things mattered THEON DID. It’s why he loses his SHIT at Winterfell when he’s faced with the realization that he belongs nowhere. He is split between two cultures that are opposed at their very core. THEY VERY GODS. In the show you can see what Ned did visually. Theon dresses like a Northman. Theon SPEAKS with a VERY THICK Stark Accent. Theon says his VERY NAME differently then his Greyjoy family members do. YET Theon isn’t a Northman. So the northerners treat him with similar scorn. Theon COULD NEVER even rule the ironborn as he is post Ned’s GREAT IDEA. They would REJECT HIM. They wouldn’t ever listen to him. They wouldn’t change their ways just because he was more like a Stark. AND THIS. IS ALL. NED’S FAULT. Theon did betray Robb. He did. And it’s something he feels bad about after he’s been tortured, though honestly not before. He says in the dungeon that he took Winterfell because he LOVED AND HATED THE STARKS. What do you do when you love a family who DID OBJECTIVELY HURT YOU? What do you do when no one else gives a shit about that pain? How fucked up is it that The Starks fucked up Theon and no one cares because morally they just PREFER them to the Greyjoys? I reject this interpretation of the arc. I reject the idea that the Starks are perfect. I think they are kind of trash and my second favorite character is SANSA STARK.  Like I GET that people love this and that the show has doubled down on this but it’s like...Really to me a shame. There is so much more going on with Theon and the Starks then “They were so good to them and he was so mean! But he feels sad now so it’s good!!” Like no, fuck off.  ------ Also this video is still good. If you like this idea cool, we do not have to agree on this or anything else.  Also sorry for any typos, I can’t edit this right now. I shouldn’t have wrote it. I have like no timeeeee akjxsdhjkcdjkh

[aion-rsa]

Game of Thrones: 24 Book Characters Not in the Show

https://ift.tt/2WHpXWU

Game of Thrones Season 8 is nearly here, but with it, the number of characters from George R.R. Martin's novels who've been skipped grows.

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Feature

Books

Marc Buxton

Game of Thrones

Apr 3, 2019

HBO

George R.R. Martin

A Song of Ice and Fire

Game of Thrones Season 8

So, you thought HBO’s Game of Thrones had a ton of characters, huh? For seven seasons now, fans of HBO’s epic have gotten out their scorecards to keep track of all the Starks, Lannisters, Tullys, Wildlings, Greyjoys, Boltons, Freys, and the rest of the residents of Westeros.

But believe it or not Game of Thrones fans (and any “A Song of Ice and Fire” reader will attest to this), there have been a metric ton of George R.R. Martin characters that have not yet popped up on the series, despite appearing in the novels’ corresponding events. That’s right; there is a legion of fighters, rogues, small folk, lords, and ladies that never got that chance to realize that the HBO night is dark and full of highly rated terror.

Whether showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss wanted to tighten the narrative or to simplify things (HA!) for the hourlong installments of Game of Thrones is not for us to say. But we can attest that in some cases, TV fans have missed out on some pretty fascinating players of the Seven Kingdoms and beyond. So join us as we delve into the literary world of “A Song of Ice and Fire,” and present to you some conspicuously absent Game of Thrones characters. But be warned, this article is dark and filled with spoilers, so if you want to stay blissfully ignorant, sound the retreat now, my dear Summer child.

Strong Belwas

One of the most notable exclusions on TV’s Game of Thrones is the gigantic gladiator Strong Belwas. He was sent by Illyrio Mopatis (the dude that originally arranged the marriage of Daenerys to Khal Drogo) to be Daenerys’ new bodyguard. With Belwas came an old squire named Arstan Whitebeard, who turned out to be Barristan Selmy in disguise (hence his literary introduction to Dany).

So, the show kept the Selmy angle but jettisoned Belwas, which is a damn shame because the gigantic pit fighter provides some awesome comic relief to the otherwise usually terse Daenerys in Meereen scenes. When Daenerys arrives in Meereen in season 4 of Game of Thrones, the city sends out its champion to face Khaleesi’s chosen warrior. In the show, Daenerys chooses Daario Naharis to be her champion, but in the book, she does not want to risk the handsome rogue. Nor does she want to choose her trusted advisors Selmy or Jorah Mormont, so she selects Belwas, figuring that if Meereen’s champion defeats a former slave like Belwas, there will be no glory in it.

read more: Game of Thrones Season 8 - Everything We Know

Daenerys needn’t have worried; Belwas drew the champion out by taking a gigantic dump in front of the city of Meereen (I’m not kidding) and then easily dispatches his opponent. Other than killing, all Belwas really does is eat. He is fiercely loyal to his Khaleesi and can often be seen by her side wearing his signature tiny vest and genie pants. Many fans were disappointed by Belwas’ exclusion, because I think many fans secretly wanted to see a giant gladiator in genie pants poop in front of a majestic city.

Fan image by sprrow.

Victarion Greyjoy

One of the major subplots of the books not to make it in the television series is the full saga of the Greyjoy family while they vie for control of the Iron Islands following Balon Greyjoy’s death. Euron eventually showed up, but in a truncated introduction that awkwardly combined him and Victarion.

Victarion is, in the books, the bravest of the Greyjoy siblings who are trying to win the kingship of the Iron Islands. He is a skilled sailor and a natural born leader. One of the highlights of A Feast for Crows is the Kingsmoot held to name a new king of the Iron Islands. In truth, Victarion would probably be the most suitable king, but his conniving brother Euron Greyjoy wins the day, much as he does against Yara in the series. Victarion hates Euron but supports his claim out of loyalty to his family.

read more: Game of Thrones Season 8 Predictions and Theories

This is where things get interesting: Euron demands that Victarion sail across the Narrow Sea and offer a proposal of marriage to none other than the Mother of Dragons herself--an aspect that was only teased and then discarded in the series.  At this point in the books though, Victarion has grown disgusted with Euron’s cruelty and plans to woo Daenerys himself. This kicks of an adventure in A Dance with Dragons where Victarion meets a Red Priest of R’hllor who informs the Greyjoy that there is a way to bind Daenerys’ dragons to his will. So in the books, this non-TV character actually becomes a threat or perhaps a potential ally to the Silver Queen.

Image by Matt Olson.

Big Walder and Little Walder Frey

Big Walder Frey and Little Walder Frey were two of the Frey family that dwelled in Winterfell. When Catelyn and Robb Stark treated with the Freys to allow Robb’s army to ford the Crossing at the Twins, the senior Frey included the fostering of Little Walder at Winterfell. He was accompanied by Big Walder, and the two became friends with Rickon Stark.

Bran, Jojen Reed, and Meera Reed did not take kindly to these two Freys as both were brutish bullies. Little Walder is the larger of the pair, but both were skilled fighters who enjoyed pushing others around. The two can be seen as a bit of foreshadowing of the cruel nature of the Freys, something Robb and Catelyn would soon discover at the Red Wedding. The two Walders are also a good example of why “A Song of Ice and Fire” is insanely confusing: there are three characters with the exact same name featured in prominent roles. Maybe, that’s why Martin takes so long writing these books? He confuses himself.

Later on in the novels, Little Walder becomes a squire to Ramsay Bolton, which cannot be fun at all. Fans of the show must be content with just one Walder Frey.

Left and Right

Erryk and Arryk, or “Left and Right,” are the loyal bodyguards of Lady Olenna Tyrell, the Queen of Thorns. They are heavily armed brutes that are fiercely loyal to their Lady. On the other hand, the Queen of Thorns can’t be bothered to remember her guards’ names so she just refers to them as Left and Right. These two warriors are a reminder just how dangerous Lady Olenna could be despite her advanced age. If you mess with this rose, Lady Olenna has two giant pricks to make sure you bleed. On TV, the Queen of Thorns does her own pricking.

Jeyne Westerling

Jeyne Westerling has never appeared on TV, nor will she because her part in the drama, that of Robb Stark’s wife, was usurped by Talisa Maegyr.

Unlike poor Talisa, Jeyne does not attend the Red Wedding and is still alive deep into the books. While Benioff and Weiss gave Talisa a fascinating backstory, and a memorable character arc, Jeyne was kind of just a plot point—a reason that Robb does not marry one of Walder Frey’s daughters.

Robb meets Jeyne after he suffers a minor wound during a battle and takes refuge in her family’s small castle. The Westerlings are Lannister bannermen, so Robb basically takes them hostage, but Jeyne is kind to the King in the North and takes deep pity on him when he finds out that Theon Greyjoy “killed” his brothers Bran and Rickon at Winterfell.

Jeyne is a devoted and simple woman who loves Robb unconditionally but is overwhelmed by the conflict around her. When Robb died, Jeyne went into a deep mourning and is ordered by the Lannisters not to marry for two years, lest people thing she produced an heir with the fallen boy king. It’s hard to imagine the Red Wedding being worse than it was in the books, but slaughtering a pregnant Talisa (poor Ned Junior) to kick off the carnage was a much more brutal fate than that suffered by Robb Stark’s literary wife.

Image by Kurotsuta Murasaki.

Edric Storm

There were certainly many of Robert Baratheon’s bastards to go around in the “A Song of Ice and Fire” novels. Edric Storm was one such by-blow who lived first at Storm’s End and later on Dragonstone, the land ruled by Stannis Baratheon.

On television, the story of Edric was folded into that of Gendry since Arya’s blacksmith buddy became the all-purpose Baratheon bastard. In the books, Edric went through roughly the same ordeal that Gendry did on the series: he was tortured by the Red Witch Melisandre, who leeched him and used his blood to curse Kings Robb Stark, Joffrey Baratheon, and Balon Greyjoy; Like television’s Gendry, Edric was saved from being burned by the Red Witch thanks to Ser Davos Seaworth, the Onion Knight.

But to simplify things, Benioff and Weiss made Gendry and Edric one, but in the world of the books, Edric stands as a testament to the mighty libido of King Robert Baratheon.

Image by Xtreme1992.

Vargo Hoat

On HBO, Vargo Hoat was ostensibly replaced by the evil Locke, the vicious mercenary who dared to cut off the hand of the Kingslayer. As fans know, Locke then forced Brienne of Tarth to fight a giant bear in a pit. Locke was every inch the thug and bully that Hoat was in the book, but Hoat suffers a much darker fate than his TV counterpart. Yeah, Locke’s television demise was violent (a Bran-possessed Hodor nearly popped his evil head off), but it pales in comparison to the bodily atrocity that was inflicted on Hoat.

read more: Ranking All the Game of Thrones Villains

In the book, Hoat tries to rape Brienne before feeding her to the bear, but the tough as nails Brienne bit his ear off. Hoat’s wound festers and he becomes delirious but is still determined to hold the Keep of Herrenhal. When the Mountain Gregor Clegane arrives to take the keep back for Tywin Lannister, Clegane finds the delirious and defiant Hoat. The Mountain orders his men to slowly slice pieces of Hoat’s body away and bandage the wounds so the mercenary lives through the horrific ordeal. The Mountain then feeds the pieces to Hoat and the other prisoners, and makes sure that his captive lives to suffer for many days.

Being crushed by Hodor is no day at the beach, but the Mountain made sure that Hoat’s book death was one of the most brutal and disturbing in ASOIAF’s history.

Image by Joel Chaim Holtzman.

Dale, Allard, and Maric Seaworth

In Game of Thrones, Matthos Seaworth, the beloved son of Ser Davos, the Onion Knight, dies in the battle of the Black Water in a furious storm of wildfire. In the books, namely in A Clash of Kings, Davos is the sire of four sons who died in Tyrion Lannister’s wildfire trap. The literary deaths of his four boys were almost too much for Davos to bear, but the ever-loyal Onion Knight continues to fight in his sons’ memory despite his tremendous loss.

Patchface

Patchface is one of the most chilling characters introduced in A Clash of Kings. Patchface (or Patches) was once a famed jester, known far and wide in the Seven Kingdoms. The famous fool was on his way to Dragonstone to entertain the young Baratheon children when his ship broke up, killing all aboard. Except for Patchface that is, who washed ashore days later hopelessly insane and babbling about undead creatures and ancient evils that live in the waters. So the humorless Stannis grew up with a mad fool who babbled about the things down below.

This adds to the cold and emotionless nature of Stannis Baratheon, who never learned to laugh because his childhood fool went mad. Patchface has his face tattooed in motley and can barely function, but he is a constant companion to Stannis’ daughter, the deformed Princess Shireen who still can find humor in the ravings of a madman. But not on Game of Thrones, where the things down below go unmentioned because there is no mad Patchface to sing their tale.

Image by jesterry.

Jinglebell (Aegon Frey)

Speaking of jesters, in the books, Jingebell was the grandson of Walder Fey. He was a mentally disabled young man who entertained his guests in his fool’s motley at the Red Wedding. When the carnage began, Catelyn Stark grabbed Jinglebell and put her knife to his throat, begging the elder Frey to spare Robb’s life. Walder says that he would gladly trade a half-wit grandson for the life of Robb Stark. As Robb is slaughtered, Catelyn cuts the cognitively impaired jester’s throat.

It was a moment of pure, emotionless rage for Catelyn Stark and was a clue of things to come for the Lady of Riverrun. But in the television series, Catelyn threatened one of Frey’s young wives and cut her throat when Robb is killed. I guess Game of Thrones has something against jesters as both Jinglebell and Patchface, memorable fools both, were left out of the show.

Image by Morgan King.

Lady Stoneheart

One of the most unforgettable moments in A Storm of Swords and the whole “A Song of Fire and Ice series” is the epilogue reveal of Lady Stoneheart. In the final chapter of A Storm of Swords, a cravenly member of the Frey family gets abducted by the Brotherhood Without Banners, the group of freedom fighters led by Beric Dondarion. Beric is conspicuous by his absence, but the rest of the Brotherhood is present and led by a cloaked figure. The cloaked figure passes sentence on the Frey and pulls its hood back revealing the ruined, dead face of Lady Catelyn Stark! Calling herself Lady Stoneheart, Catelyn now has to hold her ravaged throat together to speak and is completely devoid of humanity or emotion.

read more: Game of Thrones - 9 Book Changes That Were an Improvement

She has become the most vengeful and bloodthirsty character in the Game of Thrones saga, and is a threat to anyone whom Catelyn Stark once deemed an enemy. Benioff and Weiss have chosem not to spring Lady Stoneheart on us, which has divided fans ever since.

Image by Zippo514.

Reek (First of His Name)

Fans saw the transformation of Theon Greyjoy to Reek in Game of Thrones season 3, but TV fans might not be aware that Theon was not the first Reek to be featured in the novels.

In A Clash of Kings, it was revealed that Ramsay Snow, the bastard of Bolton once terrorized the North, raping and pillaging with his murderous companion, an odorous monster named Reek. The residents of the North thought that Reek was arrested and imprisoned in Winterfell, but the Bastard of Bolton still roamed the countryside. When Theon Greyjoy takes Winterfell and is in danger of being slaughtered by Stark bannermen, Theon frees Reek who promises to bring Ramsay Snow and his men to aid Greyjoy. When Reek returns, it is revealed that he was actually Ramsay Snow the whole time.

The newly revealed Ramsay betrays and imprisons Theon, and Greyjoy’s torturous road begins. The original Reek disguised himself as Ramsay and sacrificed himself so the bastard could live. All that is known about the original Reek was that he smells like excrement and is a vicious killer. Whether he was tortured and transformed into Reek like Theon, or whether Theon’s transformation into Reek is a tribute to Ramsay’s first Reek, has not been revealed. But what is known is that the legend of Reek began the story of the Bastard of Bolton. The TV series simplified Ramsay’s story and made Theon the first Reek and Game of Thrones’ version of Gollum.

Arianne Martell

Arianne Martell, the sister of Oberyn Martell, is the central Dornish character after Oberyn’s shocking death at the hands of the Mountain. Arianne is stunningly beautiful and a young woman who has great ambition. She was originally going to be married to Viserys Targaryen, Daenerys’ weasel brother, but Khal Drogo’s golden crown put an end to all that.

read more: Game of Thrones Season 8 - Who Lives and Who Dies

Arianne is horrified by Oberyn’s violent death and plots revenge using Cersei’s daughter Princess Myrcella in a complex power play that results in many startling Dornish secrets being revealed. After Oberyn’s death, George R.R. Martin’s Dornish subplot centers on Arianne, so it was a bit of a surprise that Game of Thrones shifted much of her storyline in a broad sense to Oberyn’s consort Ellaria Sand. But the looseness of a bastard replacing the role of a highborn is one of many indications that the writing around Dorne left something to be desired in Game of Thrones Season 5.

Image by Arys Oakheart.

Aurane Waters

Aurane Waters fought for Stannis Baratheon, but is pardoned after he bent the knee to King Joffrey after the Battle of the Blackwater. Soon, Aurane becomes a favorite of one Cersei Lannister, who makes him admiral of the King’s fleet. He soon joins the Small Counsel of King Tommen and becomes a major player in King’s Landing. Waters takes part in many of Cersei’s machinations but has yet to join the king’s court on television. It appears some of his functions were transferred over to Euron Greyjoy in season 7 of the TV series.

Onsey, Osmund, and Osfryd Kettleblack

Aurane Waters is not the only consort of Cersei Lannister to not make the television series.

Osney, Osmund, and Osfryd Kettleblack are three ambitious brothers and sellswords (turned supposed knights) who are used in Cersei's machinations to disgrace her courtier enemies. They are the main chess pieces in a game between two ambitious queens and are a major part of the courtly intrigue in King's Landing. When things go pear-shaped for Cersei, the Kettleblacks were a major part of her fall from grace. The show opted to go for a less 1:1 comparison between Cersei's scheme against Margaery Tyrell and England's Anne Boleyn, which was much more visible in the books as we detailed here. Instead of creating false witnesses of alleged lovers of the young queen, Cersei merely roped Margaery into Loras Tyrell's trial as a gay man (which is also different from how he is villified by Cersei in the books, as well as how he is disposed of by the ruthless Queen Mother).

Image by Pojypojy.

Jeyne Poole

Jeyne Poole was Sansa Stark’s best friend when she lived in Winterfell. Think of Jeyne and Sansa as the Westerosi version of Heathers. With Sansa, Jeyne took great pleasure in mocking Arya Stark and was a major part of Sansa’s more innocent (if less endearing) days. Jeyne Poole returns as part of Ramsay Bolton’s grand plan for Winterfell and is forced to endure Ramsay’s heinous predilections when she marries Ramsay under the false identity of Arya Stark. Jeyne Poole’s fate is not a happy one, much like how Ramsay treats Sansa in Game of Thrones, albeit with more graphic cruelty in the novel. Last we saw Jeyen, she and Theon are making a desperate escape from Winterfell, much like Sansa and Theon did at the end of season 5.

Image by JeynePooleEsp.

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[thelawyerthatwaspromised]

Jonsa Makes Political Sense pt. 2

Visiting some alternate political scenarios and how even the best case scenario for Daenerys and Jon is highly unlikely to result in political harmony.

Recap of where we stand at the end of season 7.

Ok...so what can possibly be the best-case realistic scenario if Dany-Jon end up marrying and gaining the Iron Throne?

This would be the best case scenario that could be even plausible for Daenerys and Jon. The red regions being loyal to the Targaryen crown. The blue being either independent (the North) or loyal to the North.

The show has conveniently left 1 character (or 2 in the case of Theon and Yara Greyjoy) that would be the logical ruler for each of the 7 kingdoms with the exception of Dorne which is basically gone from the plot but I leave open the possibility that Ellaria Sand survived simply because we didn’t see her death on screen.

So it’s reasonable to assume these characters would be the ones left to rule in some capacity.

Here’s what they would have to overcome to even get to this point:

1.) Ellaria

Ellaria Sand must be alive AND still have political power in Dorne AND still be loyal to the ally who made no effort to prevent the above from happening. Eesh.

2.) Gendry Baratheon

Gendry is the only character positioned at the moment to take the Stormlands. He’s the last heir and son of Robert Baratheon. Gendry would need to not hate Daenerys, Daenerys would have to not hate him...and if Gendry ends up marrying someone like, oh, Arya Stark, then his loyalties would be heavily influenced by the Starks. Gendry, as part of a Westerosi political future, is a huge question if Daenerys is Queen, even if Jon is still alive...as Gendry could easily be seen as a threat by Daenerys by his claim and his family history.

3.) Samwell Tarly

The good news for a potential alliance with Sam? He was very close with Aemon Targaryen and he got to know and care about Jorah Mormont while training at the Citadel. The bad news?

Eesh.

4.) Theon / Yara Greyjoy

The good: they swore fealty to Daenerys in exchange for killing Euron and taking the Iron Throne.

The bad?

Another ally that suffered immeasurably almost immediately after swearing fealty to Daenerys. Another ally Daenerys didn’t attempt to bargain for or rescue. We also have:

“You’re a Stark. And you’re a Greyjoy.” You think Theon cares too much about Daenerys at this point? Who did he seek out when it came to Yara’s rescue? Who gave Theon validation? Who did Theon risk his life protecting in season 5?

5.) Tyrion Lannister

Tyrion would need to be in charge of the Westerlands - which only happens if Jaime dies as well. Tyrion also needs to have a good relationship with Daenerys. Also, Tyrion would need to no longer be Hand of the Queen. I don’t find all of these things happening to make this scenario likely at all.

6.) Northern Subservience

The North led by Sansa, the Vale, led by Yohn Royce (even if Robin Arryn is the Lord), and Edmure Tully, uncle of Sansa Stark, would all need to be subservient to the Targaryen Queen for there to be harmony. Not to mention...

Other secondary political Northern players who potentially could play a role in the peace of the Kingdom. 

To summarize: even the most optimistic scenario for Daenerys relies completely on loyalties to Jon and Sansa for the system to work at all. Some might say that would just make Daenerys the middle man to peace...or the biggest obstacle. Depends on your perspective.

The best chance Daenerys has for political cohesion if she gains the Iron Throne is that the remaining logical rulers for the kingdoms die. You shouldn’t need every other prominent ruler to die to have peace if you are meant to be a good ruler.

So even the optimistic side of things looks rather tenuous for Daenerys. How about a worse scenario: Jon Snow dies.

This is now how the map looks (realistically):

If Jon dies...Daenerys has a terribly difficult time even in the most optimistic scenario.

Dorne STILL requires that Ellaria/whomever has any feelings of loyalty left to Daenerys. The last 2 times Dorne has allied with the Targaryens? Elia Martell and her children were slaughtered, then Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes were slaughtered (excepting the remote chance that Ellaria survived). 

The Westerlands STILL would require Tyrion in charge and Tyrion’s relationship with Daenerys preserved AND Tyrion giving up his Hand of the Queen position.

The Iron Islands could still have dueling loyalties...but without Jon Snow, Theon has an infinitely stronger connection to Sansa and the Starks over Daenerys. Yara would still have only been rescued by Theon, not Daenerys. It’s tricky for the Dragon Queen.

The Reach with Samwell flips to the Starks - now Jon Snow isn’t there to insulate Daenerys from having killed the Tarlys. And the Stormlands gave the Targaryen Dynasty a Robert Baratheon warhammer to the chest. The Stormlands could also possibly have a Stark Lady in Arya. Stormlands / Vale / North / Riverlands / Reach alliance? That’s a winning side.

How the map would look if Robb Stark had won.

This is actually the closest to how I expect things to look at the end of the show (obviously with Houses substituted). Robb would have given Casterly Rock to the Greyjoys and he would have accepted Renly Baratheon (with Margaery as the Queen) as King. Dorne is unclear. That’s still the ONLY kingdom that wouldn’t have definitely been part of this united-ish 7 Kingdoms, but the Martells hated the Lannisters. They would have sided with the other Kingdoms had it come to that.

This is so similar to how the Kingdom would look with Jon Snow / Sansa Stark marriage.

You are solid in 6 of the 7 Kingdoms. I’m assuming here that Theon survives but it could be Theon or Yara and I think it’s more likely the Greyjoys end up with the Westerlands like Robb had promised when he sent Theon to negotiate with Balon in season 2.

Dorne, again, is the only uncertainty but that’s more because the show has basically eliminated Dorne as a storyline. There is no known character in Dorne right now that would have any animosity towards a Jon and Sansa marriage.

This is an EASY unification of Westeros. There are no personal hurdles to overcome. Actually, the biggest hurdle would have been from the North resisting a Targaryen crown, yet the involvement of Sansa Stark would completely cure those worries.

TL;DR version #2: If Daenerys and Jon get married, the map is stacked against her and even if she gets a LOT of breaks with house loyalties, Daenerys is completely dependent on Jon Snow and Sansa Stark for any kind of harmony in the kingdom. If Jon Snow dies and Daenerys gets the Throne, the chances of peace in Westeros are equal to or less than 0%.

If Jon Snow and Sansa Stark are married, Westeros is united easily as the show has left essentially 1 character for each of the 7 kingdoms that has any chance of ruling after the Wars are over.

Again, from a political standpoint, it’s a no brainer. Jonsa is Endgame.

[godemperor307]

Conqueror and the Red Wolf Chapter 2

Sansa sent letters to all the lords of Westeros that she had retained independence, but managed to negotiate an alliance with Daenerys Targaryen, as well as the existence and grave threat of the Dead beyond the Wall, which was quickly approaching. She had Jon leave a strong rearguard at Eastwatch, and the castle nearest to it, Last Hearth. The Umbers took to this task with earnestness, commanding a full garrison there. Token garrisons were placed in the surrounding castles, all armed with Dragonglass weapons.

The relationship between the Red Stark and the Silver Dragon deepened in secret. Many began to wonder why exactly it was that the silver haired queen chose to keep such close companionship with whom logically should have been her rival. But Sansa put aside such thoughts and enjoyed her cute girlfriend’s kisses. Their campaign in the south was bringing Euron and Cersei to heel. Dragons proved unstoppable to any army she fielded and were instrumental in the Siege of Pyke, along with Theon who led the first vanguard through the breach. Sure enough, southern Westerosi lords all flocked back to the side of the Dragon Banner, as it was before the days of the Mad King. Any Ironborn who bent the knee were also allowed to live, under Queen Yara, who executed Euron herself and pledged to join Daenerys with fresh reinforcements after the last Euron loyalists had been defeated.

Suddenly Sansa heard something in the distance. Horns of the North blowing proudly and wolf banners flapping in the cool wind. Prince Edmure kneeled before her. “My queen, Prince Jon’s host is approaching.” Sansa nodded. She would finally reunite with Arya and Bran. Sure enough, they arrived and Sansa flung herself into Arya’s arms. Arya was wearing a Northern-style coat and most of the baby-fat was gone, leaving a tough, fierce warrior. “Missed you, sis.” She whispered into Arya’s hair. “You better tell me everything. How exactly did you convince the Dragon Bitch?” “Don’t talk- I’ll explain later.” Arya looked at her curiously but let it pass. “How did you survive? You disappeared from King’s landing after Father….” “Long story. I came back after you and Jon beat the Boltons. I almost didn’t come back home. I went to kill Cersei.” Sansa smirked. “I’m working on it. How would you-” Arya grinned back. “You’re not the selfish stupid little girl I used to know.” “No……I suppose life forced me to grow up. Where did you go? After Father died, you disappeared.” ”I was in the company of the Hound, and then I sailed to Braavos. But I never could have survived what you survived. I would have tried to kill the Lannisters every day since Father….” Arya embraced her again. “I’m sorry I wasn’t there to protect you, Sansa. Please accept me into your Queensguard. I can handle myself.” “It’s quite alright. You’re here now. You sure you want to-” “I’ve never been suited to be a princess, Sansa. As much as you are suited to being queen, that’s never been the life for me.” “Very well, sister. I will find a place for you in my guard. Say your Queensguard vows within the week.” Finally, Bran spoke up. “Hello, sister.” Sansa flung herself onto Bran, and the three siblings engaged in a group hug. “Hi, Bran. I missed you so much.” “I am truly sorry”, Bran said, barely above a whisper. “I saw your wedding. I saw what the Boltons and Lannisters did. I wish I could have prevented it.” “I’m just happy you’re here now.” Sansa said, pained. The lone wolves died but the pack had managed to reunite. Arya spoke up again. “So why have you joined the North to the Dragon Bitch?” “Actually, Arya…we’re in love.” “WHAT?” Arya screeched. “I went on a diplomatic mission to negotiate an alliance against Cersei. Things happened. She courted me.” “But….you were so boy-crazy…Remember Joffrey-“ “Never say that name in my presence. I was a foolish young girl with dreams and fantasies, I admit it, but I am sure of my feelings. It never mattered that we were both women. There are far stranger traditions in her family.” “No kidding…” “You should not speak of this to the public. It could destroy everything we’ve built, the entire alliance. I am only telling you and Bran because you are family and deserve to know.” “I understand,” said Bran. “Ugh…fine, sis. I still don’t trust her. If she ever hurts you…” “I will warn her, Arya,” Sansa giggled.

A horn sounded at that moment, announcing the arrival of the rest of Jon’s united host to join the Targaryens waiting outside the city. All told, over a hundred thousand men, awaiting the signal to begin the final assault up the walls of the capital. Many among Daenerys had initially wanted to simply attack the Red Keep with Drogon, now that nearly all of Westeros had rallied to their side. but the Queen in the North advised against it. Neither her nor her girlfriend had any wish to harm innocents unnecessarily.

She could not get enough of her sexy dragon, savoring the taste of Daenerys’ skin, her soft lips, the mounds of her soft breasts pressing up against Sansa’s own. They pulled apart however when they heard someone coming. Prince Jon burst in, furious. “They lied to me! Father lied to me.” “What is going on, Jon?” Sansa asked softly. “I am Aegon Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark!” he shouted. “Howland Reed, Sam and Bran told me everything. Father should have told me this before I first left Winterfell. He sent me to the Wall, knowing what it was, who I really was, when I could have avenged my true family and killed Gregor Clegane.” Daenerys eyed him sympathetically. “if this is true, then I am not as alone as I once thought. It is a pain beyond what anyone should suffer through, to think you are the last remaining member of your family.” “Yet Mother and Father foolishly started a civil war, all based on a lie apparently. Rhaegar did not rape her. She went with him willingly. Thousands died for it.” Jon snarled. “How many millions might live because of the love I have for your cousin, Jon? We united Westeros and are currently marching to save it. Love is much more powerful than you think.” “We need you, Jon. I don’t care what Bran says. We were raised together. You’re my brother and heir. You are a Stark, and a Targaryen. You embody the most admirable traits of both. I need you….” Sansa finished softly. Jon broke down in tears and launched himself into his sister’s arms. “Jon, I will never lie to you. I love you. I always will. If I fall…..you need to lead Westeros to victory, as the rightful prince of our kingdom.” Jon sniffled. “I could never lead as well as you. I don’t want power. Never did. You need not worry about me pressing my claim. You are my queen, Your Grace.” “Thank you, Jon. There is something else you must know about me. Queen Daenerys and I have fallen in love. We just told Arya. I hope I have your support.” Jon did not hesitate. “It goes without saying, Your Grace, as long as she makes you happy.” At that moment, Jaime Lannister cautiously stepped inside the tent. He was stopped by the Lady Commander, who hissed “Back, Lannister, or we will kill you. Why did the guards let you pass?” “I only seek to serve the queen, Brienne. They know that.” “Bloody terrible job you did of that. She’s surrounded and soon to be dead.” “Not Cersei. Sansa. I once promised her mother I would protect her, remember? Cersei is dead to me.” He hissed hauntingly. Clearly there had been a falling out, or he was simply abandoning a lost cause. “It’s ok, Brienne.” Sansa turned away from her brother. “Let him pass.” “As you wish, Your Grace.” “Now, Ser Jaime…..why do you wish to join us? Why should we trust you?” Jaime chuckled darkly. “Half your army is savages, eunuchs, and former enemies of yours. One more won’t hurt. If you’ll have me, I’ll help lead your armies against the dead – Yes, I believe you - kill your enemies, and do whatever it takes to earn at least a small part of redemption for myself and my family.” Sansa stayed quiet, weighing her options. “Very well. Kneel, pledge you shall be loyal to me, and it shall be so. I will even grant you the Rock, should we both survive this.” “I humbly pledge my loyalty, Queen Sansa. You shall not regret this. I am humbled by your offer, and I agree to lead my people. I will take command of the Westerlanders on your flank, and lead foraging parties for food.” “See that you do, Ser Jaime.” With that, Jaime rode off to the other side of the encampment. Brienne stiffened. “Is it really wise to trust a bloody Lannister? Mere hours ago, you would have had his head on a spike, Your Grace.” “If this war has taught me anything, Brienne, it’s to forgive but never forget. Jaime Lannister tried to kill my brother. You think I don’t want to make him suffer? It is the right of a queen to punish her enemies. However, that is not the kind of queen I want to be. We’ll never get through this if I or my bannermen act out every last grudge or battle amongst ourselves.” “But-“ Prince Edmure snarled “Question your queen again, woman.” “It’s quite alright, Uncle.” He growled disapprovingly. The next morning, Sansa sent a messenger, intending to give Cersei one last chance to work out the terms of her surrender. Daenerys disagreed. “I can send Drogon to do one passover and it is likely they all will simply throw down their weapons and surrender. It’s mostly sellswords, Sansa.” “That is not the queen I wish to be, ruling through fear. If they fight for gold, they won’t want to die against nearly one hundred thousand men. I do not believe that Cersei is ready to die either. She will do whatever it takes to keep her power. I believe that means bending the knee. Even Balon Greyjoy bent his knee before Robert Baratheon.” “Yes, and then he betrayed the Baratheons.” “I know. However, has Queen Yara not reformed the ironborn and made them staunch allies of ours? I feel that the same can be done for the Lannisters.” “Very well, my love. However, if negotiations go south, we do this my way.” “Your Graces….” Arya interrupted. She eyed Daenerys warily, having never truly trusted her. “Arya? We’re about to begin the parley. Go back to your post.” “Forgive me, Your Graces. Perhaps the men could do with a speech. Last night, half the army were drunken fools, Jon included. The new arrivals also seem to have doubts about you two.” “I see. Thank you, sister. Rally the Queensguard. I will speak to them.” Sansa declared fiercely. Arya bowed and left. Before Sansa could leave, Daenerys muttered something. “D?” “I said…I love you, my wolf.” Sansa’s heart soared, and pounded in her chest. Daenerys had never said that before to her. This drop dead gorgeous bombshell loved her? It almost defied her imagination. “Oh D, I love you too, my dragon. From the moment I met you, I did.” Daenerys grinned genuinely, and gave her one last peck. Sansa then rode out to the head of her gigantic army, which had gathered outside.

Her messenger had returned and reported that there would soon be a parley from the leadership of the city’s defenders. A dozen riders came from the gate, carrying a flag of truce. Including……

“False Queen Sansa, Daenerys the Usurper, I present to you, Queen Cersei of the Iron Throne, rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.” The Lannister knight snarled. “Little dove” Cersei Lannister sneered mockingly. You rose high, didn’t you? But a weakling is still a weakling. I see you brought my brother. Pity…...” “Cersei, the game is up! You must see that! Three Dragons would be difficult enough to fight, let alone Dothraki, Ironborn and Unsullied. Your sellswords and ballistas won’t stop them.” Jaime pleaded. “Qyburn assures me they are able to pierce through solid stone-“ “And It won’t stop them!” “Sansa…” Cersei sighed, ignoring her brother she had now given up for dead. “Did you really think I rode out here to issue a surrender? I did not. I only did to get a final look at my enemies, before burning them to the ground. Do you really think I would bend my knee before eunuch scum and flea bitten horselords? Before the man who murdered Father?” Sansa smiled “No, honestly I was not expecting a surrender from you. However, it does me good to see you again. You taught me much about ruling. Thank you for your lessons, Queen Cersei. I wanted you to see what those lessons have made me become.” “You can skulk back home, you little cunt!” Cersei screeched. “You can take this city, over my dead body-“(“Actually, that’s more or less the idea,” quipped Edmure)- and a pile of burning ash and stone. You think because you put a crown on your silly little murderous head, that you have become better than me? You are even more arrogant than I thought. It would be depressing, really, if it wasn’t so hilariously pathetic. Send your armies, then. I will burn them!” With that, she turned and rode off back inside. Sansa smirked, and turned to her mighty host. “I look around and much of you know me. I am Sansa Stark, rightful Queen in the North, Vale and Trident, and I fight with the rightful Queen of the South, Daenerys Stormborn. Many years ago, the Vale, North, Trident and Stormlands all rose in rebellion against a mad monarch. The Trident couldn’t have defeated the Mad King by themselves, but heroes like my father rode with them. Now, another fire obsessed monarch would have us all on our knees! We won at the Rock. We won at the Blackwater Rush. We won at Pyke. I mean to destroy once and for all, those who have favored power and greed over honor and loyalty, who slaughtered my family and gave my home to murdering, flaying cowards. One last legion of foolish men lies awaiting us inside those walls. The Golden Company.

“They fight for Cersei’s lies, trinkets and bribes. You fight for your homes, your families, your very future that will be wrested free of tyranny and slaughter. Every second we let them keep control over Queen Daenery’s lands is an abomination I cannot tolerate. Today, none of us belong to any one house or culture. Dothraki, Unsullied or Westerosi. We belong to the cause of justice, freedom and courage. To those still trapped in that city under Cersei’s tyranny, I say only this: hold on, we’re coming. I declare that on this day, madness has seen its final sunrise!” A massive cheer erupted. “RED WOLF! RED WOLF! RED WOLF!” Daenerys quickly landed beside her girlfriend. “That was one Seven Hells of a speech, Sans. You are ten times the queen I will ever be.” Sansa smiled lovingly and proudly. Daenerys took this as her signal and mounted Drogon to provide air support for the oncoming rush of artillery pounding the walls, before the first wave rushed in.

If the Lannisters feared Stannis’s attempt to do the same, they were soiling their trousers at this sight. Cersei herself stared out from the Red Keep at the seemingly endless hordes approaching her without mercy, seemingly still confident she could burn them. Sansa watched the battle with interest. Sure enough, sellswords had no reason to die for nothing and began surrendering to Sansa and Daenerys’ mighty scaled sons. Suddenly, she felt rumbling. Was the Earth itself trying to deny them victory? She felt only burning before her sister and Brienne pulled her away in time. She stared aghast at the destruction. You really did it, you mad bitch. Cersei had decided to let Sansa be queen after all, over ash, fire and dust. The wildfire ignited, swallowing the Red Keep and everything within the walls. However, none of the Dragons had been hurt, safe as they were flying overhead, and they had more than enough men for the war against the Night King “Are you alright, honey?” Sansa’s girlfriend whispered with tender care and concern, once she landed in the camp. “I am fine, D. I can’t believe she did that. But this is not over. We need to get our remaining forces to Winterfell.” “One thing at a time, honey. You got burnt a little.” She softly caressed Sansa’s cheek. “I am okay. Check for survivors. Leave a garrison behind to protect the Crownlands. Then get the men in formation, to start marching north.” Daenerys, Jon and Arya all stood before her, refusing to move, and then kneeled. What was this? “What are you doing? Stand up, please.” Daenerys then declared “Sansa Stark, our Alliance is over.” Sansa almost sobbed. They were rebelling? Leaving? Breaking up? Did Daenerys not love her? But why? They had just defeated Cersei once and for all. Cold sadness and despair was quickly replaced with burning rage for this vicious and cruel betrayal. “I formally bend the knee to you, Queen Sansa of the Seven Kingdoms, First of Her Name.” This was beyond anything Sansa ever expected. She continued sniffling and crying. “B-Bu-“ “I could think of no one better. I have made some foolish mistakes, yet you can rally together a continent. Look at them. You’re my queen, from this day until my last day.” “W-what about your dragons-” “They shall be in your Queensguard, no?” Ssnsa nodded, laughing in spite of herself. “I will never doubt you again, Daenerys. Today, in the name of freedom and humanity, we shall take our world back from the Night King!” She was truly queen of nearly everything now, with a doting sexy wife in all but name, loyally supporting her. Sure enough, the men began gathering around, a song in their hearts and fire in their bellies. They unfurled the wolf banner, letting it flow in the wind.

Their voices only cried one name. “RED WOLF! RED WOLF! RED WOLF!”

10 years later. “Did you beat the dead people, Mummy?” asked 7 year old Lyanna Stark, whom Sansa and Daenerys had adopted together into the royal court, and legitimized, alongside 6 year old Rhaenys Stark. “Yes, Mummy did, with a lot of help, especially from Mama.” Sansa wistfully explained to her daughters.

However, hurt and pain flashed across her eyes. In truth, it was a nearly hopeless battle and they only barely won at the last second before being completely overrun inside Winterfell. When the dead breached the walls, Prince Jon died on the back of Rhaegal in his final duel against the Night King, saving Sansa’s life but destroying the Night King once and for all in the process, using Longclaw which he had set on fire. Only 5000 of their original host had survived in fighting condition. The Northern fighting men were almost obliterated. Davos, Tyrion, Samwell, Thoros, Beric, Robin Arryn, Arya, Gendry and many others also didn’t make it out alive. Entire houses were lost. But she did not have the heart to admit this yet to her children. “We lost a lot of people. But we recovered and rebuilt slowly over these last 10 years. A hard-won peace, led by your mama and I.” Sansa said. “But people still want to hurt you, Mummy.” “I won’t let them, sweetling.” Daenerys took that opportunity to walk into the room. “MAMA!” the girls squealed, hugging her tightly. “Hello girls.” Daenerys smiled fondly. “How did it go, honey?” Sansa asked, regarding the two-week diplomatic mission with the Free Cities.

Over the past 10 years since the Battle of Dawn, they had taken the opportunity to slave-raid and bully the weakened houses of Westeros. The absence of Dothraki caused a massive continent-wide war between the Free Cities, Slaver’s Bay and Yi Ti, all of which attempting to reform Valyria and conquer the vacant Targaryen Sea, as it was now known. Daenerys took her dragons and routinely crushed them, however she hoped with this new landmark peace deal, they would cease their slave raids and gradually phase slavery out. “Well enough, I believe. The Essosi slavers will not trouble us for some time.” “Very well. I’m glad your home safe, wife.” Sansa smirked at her. The silverhead laughed and kissed her. Their daughters squealed in delight. “So cute! Mummy, will you tell us about the time you rode your direwolf and killed a Bolton in single combat?” Sansa laughed “What have you been telling them, D?”

They had won the war for the future of their people, Sansa thought nostalgically. They were finally safe, or as safe as they would be for a long time. Her wife, who married her shortly after Sansa changed the laws to allow it, would be her only love. She thought back to when they had first met, young and inexperienced queens desperately fighting for survival. Their alliance ultimately was the only thing that could have won the Battle of Dawn. A victory eclipsing all others and Sansa owed it all to the thousands of brave heroes who fought with her that day, for their Red Wolf, for freedom, for love, for the future of their children to come. She wondered briefly how the tales might be told a hundred, or a thousand years after her death. How would she herself be remembered? The slaughter of the Westerlanders, Karstarks and Umbers still haunted her, wishing there was another way. Tyrant? Conqueror? Hero? Failure for allowing the deaths of nearly her entire family? Just another vengeance-obsessed noble? She decided that she wanted only to be remembered as someone who loved her wife and children. The Red Wolf was never real. She was only Sansa Stark, the whole time.

The End.

[janiedean]

I've seen some people say that after Theon gets captured and tortured by Ramsay he starts to "romanticize" his relationship with Robb so he can cling to something good, even though Robb was never that affectionate or understanding with Theon. Thoughts?

.... is this a new development I missed when I was away?

anyway, tldr: 100% complete bullshit.

long answer: I don’t have the hassle to look for quotes so please let me quote myself from a meta I wrote in the dawn of times when s2 was airing which was about how you can see in the text that robb REALLY loved theon forreal, I’ll just quote you the relevant parts but if you wanna read the entire thing the link’s there:

Point in case the first: regardless of what some people who don’t pay attention to this plot line think, Theon *did* actually care about Robb a whole damn lot and the fact that he sided with his dad was more of personal betrayal of *Robb* rather than the whole betraying the Starks thing - which doesn’t make any sense whatsoever since he owed them as a family exactly zilch. Point the second: Robb *did* actually care about Theon equally. Point the third, and that’s what I would actually like to talk about since it’s a side I rarely see discussed: while we all see/get Theon’s side of things aka ‘Robb was the only person who ever cared about him for real during his entire stay at Winterfell and arguably the only one who ever cared about him openly except his mother until that point pretty much’, there’s also Robb’s side of things, which is where I want to blather about under the read more: everyone - seriously, *everyone* - got on his case about it. Meaning: Robb is the exception to the whole 'don’t get attached to him in case his dad fucks up’ deal, but if you look at it from his POV, he really must have liked Theon a lot, because it’s not just that he’s the only one, it’s that if you pay attention everyone frowns upon it or thinks he’s being a complete idiot to actually trust Theon for real. And it’s arguably something that must have happened for the entire time Theon was at Winterfell.

+

Never mind that this is what Theon had to say about his general treatment (and the *gentling* I suppose):

Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark’s stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.

and

As if ten years in Winterfell could make a Stark. Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father’s good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had.

What a party. Except that he always says that Robb is like a brother, that he had affection for him, that as far as he cares he can rule the Riverlands while he rules Winterfell (… okay Theon okay *facepalms*) until he actually thinks he should have died with him. Never mind that Robb actually knew how shit worked in the Iron Islands so it means they actually talked about it and so on. Thing is: Robb kept on with it for ten years and never faltered once in thinking his judgment was sound until he thought that Theon had killed his brothers (which didn’t happen anyway) when everyone and their relatives gave him shit for it. If Maester Luwin told Bran *that* thing above, he probably has told Robb as well, and most probably he had been discouraged from it more than once, and he still kept on not caring.

^^^ now THAT above is from acok, not adwd. if theon’s thinking he has a CERTAIN AFFECTION for robb in acok, then he’s not romanticizing shit. anyway, going ahead, I was analyzing the woods scene which EVERYONE likes to quote as the reason why robb doesn’t REALLY like theon, I’m skipping on the first half but the point I wanted to make was:

Bran openly dislikes Theon and doesn’t get why Robb likes to hang out with him, when discussing serious matters he tells Robb as straight as it gets without actually putting it in blunt terms that he’s an idiot for wanting to listen to Theon and call the banners, when Theon says that there’s a chance Ned could die he gets screamed at even if Theon’s nineteen and Bran is eight, and tbh he hadn’t even been saying it mockingly - now, I get that if you’re eight you’re going to react like that, but the guy also didn’t tell you anything that Robb hadn’t been trying to say was a chance earlier - and when Theon tries to make his point (albeit not too nicely but that’s him for you) Bran is like ‘well my parents listened to the person you don’t care for so you’re obviously wrong’ and Robb has to actually *insist* and justify himself because he takes everyone’s opinion - Theon’s included - into account. Now, if Jon had been there instead of Theon and he had said to call the banners, would that have gotten that reaction and most of all, would Robb have had to freaking justify himself to his eight year old brother for listening to someone older than him for that matter? I kinda doubt it. But like, if you have to justify yourself to, repeating again, your *eight-year old brother* when you’re a) his eldest, b) his lord, c) in charge as far as everyone is concerned, how much do you think he’s done that already? Robb also seems pretty tired overall, and who’d blame him - that’s not even the first or last time in the books he justifies himself for liking Theon.

(Theon’s take about it to his dad:

“ He heeds me, yes. I ’ve hunted with him, trained with him, shared meat and mead with him, warred at his side. I have earned his trust. He looks on me as an older brother, he -”

speaks for itself I think.)

Anyway, five pages later some wildlings kidnap Bran and they threaten to kill him if anyone moves, and the situation is solved when Theon fires an arrow at the one holding him thus enabling everyone to take action and also saving Bran’s life. And what happens? Robb lashes out at him because if anything got wrong in there Bran could have died. My very humble opinion is that he took it out on Theon because he was worked up already and he felt like he had to show to everyone that he actually didn’t forget that Theon was supposed to not be his bff, but that’s where things go pear-shaped. Theon’s opinion of that drama:

[Dagmer] gave me more smiles than my father and Eddard Stark together. Even Robb… he ought to have won a smile the day he’d saved Bran from that wildling, but instead he’d gotten a scolding, as if he were some cook who’d burned the stew.

Like. Theon is legitimately fucking hurt about that and he *still* is hung-up about it A WHOLE FUCKING LOT after it happened. It’s probably been at least some months in between then and him thinking *that*, and he’s still hurt about it - talk about the depth of psychological damage going on here if *that* was something he couldn’t bring himself to forget, but let’s go on. Theon didn’t expect it from *him*. Like, even Robb, as if Robb was the only person he didn’t want that treatment from.

Except, let’s go a moment to that lovely exchange Robb and Cat have in ACOK when she tells him he shouldn’t send Theon to the Iron Islands:

“Theon’s fought bravely for us. I told you how he saved Bran from those wildlings in the wolfswood. If the Lannisters won’t make peace, I’ll have need of Lord Greyjoy’s longships.” “You’ll have them sooner if you keep his son as hostage.” “He’s been a hostage half his life.” “For good reason,” Catelyn said. “Balon Greyjoy is not a man to be trusted. He wore a crown himself, remember, if only for a season. He may aspire to wear one again.” Robb stood. “I will not grudge him that. If I’m King in the North, let him be King of the Iron Islands, if that’s his desire. I’ll give him a crown gladly, so long as he helps us bring down the Lannisters.” “Robb-” “I’m sending Theon. Good day, Mother. Grey Wind, come.” Robb walked off briskly, the direwolf padding beside him.

Now, I’m 100% sure that Robb never *told* Theon that because otherwise Theon wouldn’t have been thinking Robb just scolded him for that, which - seriously Robb WHY WOULDN’T YOU *facepalms again* -, but let’s just look at it for a minute. Robb tells Cat that Theon is trustworthy because he saved Bran’s life, so he *does* know that he was unfair to him, and he does consider it the way Theon hoped he would have. Never mind that he’s also the only one who points out that maybe the guy is tired of being a hostage and that he gets how bad it i s. Never mind also that this conversation is all kind of heartbreakingly ironic because Robb is right about Theon wanting the best for the both of them and Cat is right about it being a bad idea because it backfires, but at the same time Cat was 100% wrong about Balon giving them a fleet if he kept Theon hostage (he didn’t give a shit) and Robb was wrong about sending *Theon* there because of course it’d have ended up badly if Balon didn’t accept the plan. But anyway, if you look at it, Robb, who does love his mother *and* keeps her counsel in high regard *and* wouldn’t disrespect her ever, pretty much cuts Cat short as if he’s just fucking entirely done with this conversation and doesn’t want to hear about that anymore. Why? Most probably because he’s just the umpteenth time when he trusts Theon to do something and someone else (anyone) tells him it’s a bad idea without a) knowing Theon, b) knowing the reasons why Robb trusts him, c) even entertaining for a moment the notion that Robb might be right. Never mind that this entire deal is 100% more tragic because Theon ends up betraying Robb and takes the whole Bran incident into account when it was actually one of the reasons why Robb was so sure he was trustworthy on top of having known him for ten years.

+

And regardless of all the above, he does send Theon after all even if he probably was the only one thinking it was a good idea. This idiot liked Theon so much that not only he was so close with him that he was more of a brother to him than any son born of Balon’s loins, but he also was so in spite of the fact that he probably spent most of his life (actually he’s known Theon for ten years and he was five when they met so do the maths, it’s 2/3rds of someone’s life) being told that he shouldn’t. Even from his own actual brothers/mother for that matter. Like good fucking grief Theon thinks he got it all wrong and he should have died with him because that’s how much Robb mattered, and about that, I highly doubt that Theon was the one making friends first considering what he has to say about everyone else in WF. Can we just take a moment to appreciate the fact that Robb never let his judgment waver until the WF mess (and even after then he didn’t want Theon to be tortured) even if he was discouraged from keeping Theon in high regard constantly, as if he should have no reason to do it just because everyone else judged him on the basis of his family name first? I feel like this is a thing that gets overlooked a lot, and while obviously Robb never had the same issues as Theon and surely he had an easier life I just think it’s really important to their relationship that he kept on getting shit for it and he still never really cared. And it also speaks volumes that when Theon has actually, y'know, found himself again in ADWD it kind of happens when he realizes he should have been with Robb, he doesn’t say something like 'I wish we could have talked it out’ or 'I wish I hadn’t taken WF’ or anything of the kind. He thinks that he should have  died at the fucking Red Wedding aka died of the worst death you could come up with because that was where he was supposed to be. But no, let’s assume that he betrayed him just because he thought he could and it was no big deal or that Robb had it easy when he was like a brother to him instead - uhm, NOPE.

what I’m fishing at here is that saying theon romanticizes robb’s rship with him is highly in contrast with anything the text suggests on that point because actually robb’s relationship with him is the one constant he has that ties him to his previous life (he says robb’s name more than his own in his first three adwd chapters but X°DDD) and guess what it never happens with asha or his mom or anyone else. he puts two and two together about what he has done wrong and where he should have been THINKING ABOUT ROBB, and guess what realizing that he should have been with him is what unblocks him and pushes him to do better and save jeyne. and again, wanting to die at the red wedding is not romanticizing anything because no one with half a brain would want to die at the red wedding since it’s not... a quick or painless of short death. like, it’s DYING IN A MASSACRE NO ONE WANTS THAT XDDD also if you read bran’s povs he complains about all the time robb spends with theon every other moment and jon does go like ‘meh why does robb even like him’ and so on, and catelyn is like ROBB YOUR FRIENDSHIP CHOICES ARE TERRIBLE and nvm ned. like. also:

"So long as Theon Greyjoy sits in your father's seat with your brothers' blood on his hands, these other foes must wait," Catelyn told her son. "Your first duty is to defend your own people, win back Winterfell, and hang Theon in a crow's cage to die slowly. Or else put off that crown for good, Robb, for men will know that you are no true king at all." From the way Robb looked at her, she could tell that it had been a long while since anyone had dared speak to him so bluntly. "When they told me Winterfell had fallen, I wanted to go north at once," he said, with a hint of defensiveness. "I wanted to free Bran and Rickon, but I thought . . . I never dreamed that Theon could harm them, truly. If I had . . .""It is too late for ifs, and too late for rescues," Catelyn said. "All that remains is vengeance."

"I cannot speak to that. There is much confusion in any war. Many false reports. All I can tell you is that my nephews claim it was this bastard son of Bolton's who saved the women of Winterfell, and the little ones. They are safe at the Dreadfort now, all those who remain.""Theon," Robb said suddenly. "What happened to Theon Greyjoy? Was he slain?"Lame Lothar spread his hands. "That I cannot say, Your Grace. Walder and Walder made no mention of his fate. Perhaps Lord Bolton might know, if he has had word from this son of his."

This is a cold man, Catelyn realized, not for the first time."Did Ramsay mention Theon Greyjoy?" Robb demanded. "Was he slain as well, or did he flee?"Roose Bolton removed a ragged strip of leather from the pouch at his belt. "My son sent this with his letter."

Part of Catelyn wanted to clutch the grisly trophy to her heart, but she made herself resist. "Put it away. Please.""Flaying Theon will not bring my brothers back," Robb said. "I want his head, not his skin.""He is Balon Greyjoy's only living son," Lord Bolton said softly, as if they had forgotten, "and now rightful King of the Iron Islands. A captive king has great value as a hostage."

I mean. guys. IT’S TEXTUAL. if your bff conquers your castle and you don’t immediately go take it back because YOU WOULDN’T DREAM HE’D HARM YOUR SIBLINGS (and you’re actually right but nvm) then you really did trust that person or do trust them still. so: there’s no single shred of text that robb actually didn’t care about theon or didn’t love him actually all the contrary, thanks for coming to my ted talk XD

[selkiewife]

Theon Fic Appreciation || Bingo Square: Share a fic that broke your heart

All of these Theonsa fics absolutely break my heart

Before The Old Gods Take Us by mrs-storm-andrews, @mrs-storm-andrews

A beautiful fic that imagines what Theon and Sansa must have talked about on their soup date. This is so heartbreaking because of what a sweet ordinary conversation Sansa and Theon have about their memories growing up at Winterfell on maybe their last night together. 

cold as dawn by Kingmaking

This fic is masterful in the exploration of everything that remained unsaid and unacted upon between Theon and Sansa. The parts that hurt the most about it were all the times that Sansa could not allow herself to do things in regards to Theon- to embrace him once more before the battle, to look on his dead body afterwards, to say she loved him before he slipped beneath the waves at his buriel. I loved that she brought him to the Iron Islands so that he could have the funeral he deserved. A truly measured and beautiful fic about mourning. It tore my heart out.

colder winters by intradical

Another fic where Sansa brings Theon to the Iron Islands to be given an Ironborn burial. The most heartbreaking thing about this fic is her memories of Theon- and the fantasy she weaves while she tries to fall asleep on the night of his funeral. And I love the motif of dreams, memory, and ghosts and how they all blend seamlessly (and painfully) together. 

Five times Theon couldn’t say “I love you” and one time he could by Unreal_Kitty, @waking-electric 

I think the one that hurt me the most in this one was Theon being unable to tell Ned he loved him and all the complex reasons why as well as his complicated grief and relief after he died. But all the people he couldn’t say I love you to are just as beautifully painful- Alannys, Robb, Yara, and Bran. Until, Sansa. But of course that is just as painful given what happened. Ughhh! I love how this fic hurt me!

I Will Follow You Into The Dark by blahblahblah97

Love, love, love this beautiful fic that describes Sansa and Theon’s last evening together in show canon. I love that she tells him how Ramsay died. I loved the motifs of dancing and ghosts throughout that culminated in Sansa and Theon dancing to the sound of Pod singing Jenny of Oldstones. Seriously, that just about killed me.

i will tell your mother how you saved my life, i will tell her you were a hero by hcrlaws, @pctrochlus

A fix it fic where Alannys and the Harlaws come to Kings Landing with Yara during the Season Finale. Sansa meets Alannys Harlaw and gives her Theon’s bow. There are so many beautiful, beautiful moments in this and all of them just tore my heart out. 

Shadows of Winterfell by mrs-storm-andrews (no_fucking_idea_for_a_name), @mrs-storm-andrews

The angst of this one! It is a brief glimpse into a longer AU where Theon and Sansa find themselves on opposite sides after Theon has returned to Yara. But just this first chapter is enough to fully break my heart. If it is ever continued, I will be first in line to be wrecked by it! 

sinking through the sand by gingersprite, @gingersprites

This is a beautiful fix it fic where Theon and Sansa travel to Harlaw and Theon is reunites with Alannys. Balon had told him she was dead. It is so beautiful and gratifying. But the truly heartbreaking thing about this fic was all the years they had lost because of Theon being a hostage. I loved the world building about House Harlaw. This is an incredible fic!

The Sword-bearer’s Daughter by Unreal_Kitty, @waking-electric

This fic wrecked me with the exploration of Theon’s fear as a child when he found out exactly what being a hostage really meant. He tries to run away and is convinced not to by Sansa. The fic then flashes forward to running away from Ramsay with Sansa. The fact that he is still thinking of Ned while escaping with Sansa is complex and heartbreaking. And the last lines just about killed me.

[noespensaressentir]

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Disfutar y Bailar. Siempre nos han dicho que tras la lluvia o la tormenta, vuelve a salir el sol. Esto fue lo que ocurrió después del paseo por Abobo (lluvia y tormenta). Llegó el momento de ver la luz (del sol) en cuanto entramos en el terreno como ellos lo llaman.Es en este terreno, (para nosotros podría ser entre comillas, el patio de una cárcel) más o menos, entre cuatro paredes, con una superficie irregular, sin lugar para sentarse, dos porterias construidas con unos troncos, unas estacas incrustadas en unas latas de conserva grandes, con cemento dentro,  hacían la  labor de conos o referencias, 6 u 8 balones en muy malas condiciones, unos conos chinos  y multitud de sonrisas. Fue entrar en ese terreno y toda esa energía negativa que nos venía persiguiendo durante  el paseo que dimos por su vecindario (su casa) y por El Barrio de Abobo, se convirtió en ilusión y alegría!! y en un sentimiento desbordante por ayudarles a disfrutar de lo que realmente a ellos le apasiona, que es el fútbol. Esta escuela de fútbol de Abobo, compuesta por 55 niños, tiene formado tres grupos de niveles, no de edades (a lo mejor nos tiene que servir este ejemplo), como referencia a que la propia selección natural es la que nos coloca en función de nuestras capacidades. Por decisión del tutor, ese día a mi persona junto con la atención detallada de Eli, me tocó dirigir el entrenamiento del equipo de los más mayores y con mayor capacidad. Entre ellos había un chiquillo especial, era el que nos había regalado las lecciones en el día anterior, pero sobre todo, en esos 18 jugadores con los que pude participar, se podía distinguir perfectamente, cuál era su nexo común... la eterna sonrisa! Y sin apenas darnos cuenta, poco a poco nos acostumbramos a estar permanentemente sonriendo, no de forma forzada, sino de forma natural, como algo que vuelve a su ser cuando entra en armonía y se acomoda de nuevo en su estado vibracional. Sonreir y sentirse feliz, es en realidad el estado natural del ser humano. Nosotros teniéndolo “todo”, lo hemos olvidado, ellos no teniendo”nada” jamás la han perdido! Otra lección!! En fin... seguimos! Varios son los jugadores que presentan un talento sobrenatural (Isaac 9 años, Desiree 13 años y Silva 14 años), pero sobre todo me llamó la atención de que ese entrenamiento fue llevado a cabo durante una hora y cuarto más o menos, con jugadores que no se nos debe olvidar, son personas, que juegan al fútbol, pero con unas condiciones un tanto diferentes: se levantan para ir a trabajar a primera hora, después realizan entrenamiento de la mañana, desayunan leche en polvo con agua y con pan, se van a trabajar otra vez, vuelven a la tarde para volver a entrenar, se lavan tras el segundo entrenamiento si tienen agua, cenan ( arroz solo, la mayor parte de sus días, si lo hay )y a dormir en el suelo, porque no tienen colchones. Es decir, todo lo que se denomina entrenamiento invisible (en este caso se convierte en entrenamiento de supervivencia o vida cotidiana, para ellos) Nuestra pregunta es, cómo nos atrevemos algunos de nosotros a considerarla raza inferior? Quizás el racismo no sea nada más que la incapacidad de algunos en aceptar que son superiores a nosotros (los blancos).Qué sería de ese talento que tiene África si estuvieran bien alimentados, hidratados, cuidados básicos (a nivel medico), descanso… Perdón, por esta reflexión pero no podemos con todo lo que últimamente estamos viviendo en los campos de fútbol y en la sociedad. Tras dirigir posiblemente el mejor entrenamiento de mi vida, en cuanto alegría, sonrisas, disfrutar, calidad y capacidad teniendo en cuenta las circunstancias, llegó su particular vuelta a la calma. No voy a entrar a hablar del contenido del entrenamiento, porque es lo menos importante de todo lo vivido, solo voy hablar de la vuelta a la calma (esa gran olvidada) en muchos entrenamientos, pero en este caso tenemos que hacer mención de ella, porque fueron ellos quienes la dirigieron. Nos sentaron  en unas sillas de plástico, que fueron a buscar a no sabemos dónde y comenzaron su espectáculo, del cual nos hicieron partícipes como buenos anfitriones!! En ese momento, nuestro cometido se convirtió en disfrutar y bailar con ellos. Namaste.🌸🙏🏻 Eli y Antonio .

Enjoy and Dance.

We have always been told that after the rain or the storm, the sun rises again. This was what happened after the walk through Abobo (rain and storm). It was time to see the light (of the sun) as soon as we entered the field as they call it. It is in this field, (for us it could be in quotation marks, the courtyard of a prison) more or less, between four walls, with an irregular surface, with no place to sit, two goals built with logs, some stakes embedded in cans of large preserves, with cement inside, they did the work of cones or references, 6 or 8 balls in very poor condition, some Chinese cones and a multitude of smiles.

It was entering that terrain and all that negative energy that had been chasing us during the walk we took through his neighborhood (his house) and through El Barrio de Abobo, became illusion and joy !! and in an overflowing feeling for helping them to enjoy what they are really passionate about, which is soccer.

This Abobo football school, made up of 55 children, has three groups of levels, not age groups (maybe this example should serve us), as a reference to the fact that natural selection itself is what places us in function of our capabilities. By decision of the tutor, that day my person together with the detailed attention of Eli, I had to direct the training of the team of the oldest and most capable. Among them was a special boy, he was the one who had given us the lessons the day before, but above all, in those 18 players with whom I was able to participate, it was possible to distinguish perfectly, what was their common link ... the eternal smile ! And without hardly realizing it, little by little we get used to being permanently smiling, not in a forced way, but in a natural way, like something that returns to its being when it comes into harmony and accommodates itself again in its vibrational state. Smiling and feeling happy is actually the natural state of the human being. We having "everything", we have forgotten, they having "nothing" have never lost it! Another lesson !! Anyway ... we continue!

There are several players who present a supernatural talent (Isaac 9 years old, Desiree 13 years old and Silva 14 years old), but above all it caught my attention that this training was carried out for an hour and a quarter or so, with players who We must not forget, they are people who play soccer, but with somewhat different conditions: they get up to go to work first thing, then they do morning training, they eat powdered milk with water and bread, they they go to work again, they come back in the afternoon to train again, they wash after the second workout if they have water, they have dinner (rice alone, most of their days, if any) and they sleep on the floor, because they don't have mattresses. That is, everything that is called invisible training (in this case it becomes survival training or daily life, for them). Our question is, how do some of us dare to consider it an inferior race? Perhaps racism is nothing more than the inability of some to accept that they are superior to us (whites). What would be the talent that Africa has if they were well fed, hydrated, basic care (at the medical level), rest ...

Sorry, for this reflection but we cannot cope with everything that we have been experiencing lately on the soccer fields and in society.

After leading possibly the best training of my life, in terms of joy, smiles, enjoyment, quality and ability taking into account the circumstances, his particular return to calm came.

I am not going to talk about the content of the training, because it is the least important of all that I have lived, I am only going to talk about the return to calm (that great forgotten) in many training sessions, but in this case we have to mention it, because it was they who directed it. They sat us in some plastic chairs, who went to look for we do not know where and began their show, in which they made us participate as good hosts !!

At that time, our mission became to enjoy and dance with them.

Namaste.🌸🙏🏻

Eli and Antonio.

Litige et danse.

On nous a toujours dit qu'après la pluie ou la tempête, le soleil se levait à nouveau. C'est ce qui s'est passé après la promenade à travers Abobo (pluie et tempête). Il était temps de voir la lumière (du soleil) dès que nous sommes entrés sur le terrain comme ils l'appellent. C'est dans ce domaine, (pour nous ça pourrait être entre guillemets, la cour d'une prison) plus ou moins, entre quatre murs, avec une surface irrégulière, sans place pour s'asseoir, deux buts construits avec des bûches, quelques piquets encastrés dans des bidons de grandes conserves, avec du ciment à l'intérieur, ils ont fait le travail de cônes ou de références, 6 ou 8 boules en très mauvais état, quelques cônes chinois et une multitude de sourires.

C'était entrer dans cette terre et toute cette énergie négative qui nous avait chassés pendant la promenade que nous avons parcourue dans son quartier (sa maison) et à travers El Barrio de Abobo, est devenue illusion et joie !! et dans un sentiment débordant de les aider à apprécier ce qui les passionne vraiment, le soccer.

Cette école de football d'Abobo, composée de 55 enfants, a trois groupes de niveaux, pas des groupes d'âge (peut-être que cet exemple devrait nous servir), en référence au fait que la sélection naturelle elle-même est ce qui nous place en fonction de Nos capacités. Par décision du tuteur, ce jour-là ma personne avec l'attention détaillée d'Eli, j'ai dû diriger la formation de l'équipe des plus anciens et des plus compétents. Parmi eux, il y avait un garçon spécial, c'était lui qui nous avait donné les leçons la veille, mais surtout, parmi ces 18 joueurs avec lesquels j'ai pu participer, il était possible de distinguer parfaitement, quel était leur lien commun ... le sourire éternel ! Et sans à peine s'en rendre compte, on s'habitue peu à peu à un sourire permanent, non pas de manière forcée, mais de manière naturelle, comme quelque chose qui revient à son être quand il entre en harmonie et s'adapte à nouveau dans son état vibratoire. Sourire et se sentir heureux est en fait l'état naturel de l'être humain. Nous avons "tout", nous avons oublié, ils "rien" ne l'ont jamais perdu! Une autre leçon !! Quoi qu'il en soit ... nous continuons!

Il y a plusieurs joueurs qui présentent un talent surnaturel (Isaac 9 ans, Désirée 13 ans et Silva 14 ans), mais surtout j'ai retenu mon attention que cette formation s'est déroulée pendant une heure et quart environ, avec des joueurs qui Il ne faut pas oublier, ce sont des gens qui jouent au football, mais avec des conditions quelque peu différentes: ils se lèvent pour aller au travail en premier, puis ils s'entraînent le matin, ils mangent du lait en poudre avec de l'eau et du pain, ils ils retournent au travail, ils reviennent l'après-midi pour s'entraîner à nouveau, ils se lavent après le deuxième entraînement s'ils ont de l'eau, ils dînent (riz seul, la plupart de leurs jours, le cas échéant) et ils dorment par terre, parce qu'ils n'ont pas matelas. C'est-à-dire tout ce qu'on appelle un entraînement invisible (dans ce cas, cela devient un entraînement de survie ou la vie quotidienne, pour eux). Notre question est, comment certains d'entre nous osent-ils le considérer comme une race inférieure? Peut-être que le racisme n'est rien de plus que l'incapacité de certains à accepter qu'ils sont supérieurs à nous (les blancs). Quel serait le talent de l'Afrique si elle était bien nourrie, hydratée, soins de base (au niveau médical), repos ...

Désolé pour cette réflexion mais nous ne pouvons pas faire face à tout ce que nous avons vécu récemment sur les terrains de football et dans la société.

Après avoir dirigé peut-être le meilleur entraînement de ma vie, en termes de joie, de sourires, de plaisir, de qualité et de capacité compte tenu des circonstances, son retour au calme est venu.

Je ne vais pas parler du contenu de la formation, car c'est la moins importante de toutes que j'ai vécu, je ne parlerai que du retour au calme (ce grand oublié) dans de nombreuses sessions de formation, mais dans ce cas il faut le mentionner, parce que ce sont eux qui l'ont dirigé. Ils nous ont fait asseoir sur des chaises en plastique, qui sont allés chercher on ne sait pas où et ont commencé leur spectacle, auquel ils nous ont fait participer en bons hôtes !!

À ce moment-là, notre tâche est devenu apprécier et danser avec eux.

Namaste.🌸🙏🏻

Eli et Antonio.