#bojack horseman analysis

[bojackandherb]

Hard take but I think it’s better that Bojack did NOT die in The View from Halfway Down.

Him dying would go against the whole theme of having to live with your mistakes. Also it would’ve just been too depressing, especially for people who relate to Bojack’s struggles. What would him dying accomplish? What message would that send across? “Sad horse guy tries and fails to become a better person and to get better while struggling with mental illness, trauma, and addictions, then he finally starts making real progress and just dies.” That’s just depressing. And I know the show Bojack Horseman is kinda depressing, but there’s always an undercurrent of hope. Bojack dying would destroy that hope. Because yeah, Bojack did a lot of terrible things, but he always has the potential and the desire to get better. And maybe you hate him, that’s totally fair. Maybe you think he crossed the point of no return long ago. But the show says no, he actually can get better despite all the terrible things he’s done. And no, it doesn’t undo any of the terrible things he’s done or the pain he’s caused, but it does means he can at least stop hurting people so much, and maybe even help some people. And we do see him helping people and being a lot nicer in season 6, even though he still has a lot of flaws and ends up backsliding. He always has the potential to get better again, unless he dies.

What do you want Bojack to die for? His mistakes? The people he’s hurt? Because him dying wouldn’t undo any of the terrible things he’s done, and I don’t really think it would the people he’s hurt much peace either. In fact, considering a lot of the people he’s hurt have complicated feelings about him, I think him dying would actually give them less peace. Especially if they knew he died by suicide. Because while he’s alive they can cut him out of their lives, maybe tell themselves they hate him and that he’s a terrible person, and just be done with it. But if he dies, then there’s always these kind of thoughts like “is it still okay for me to still hate him? I may have hated him but I never wanted this. Was I too hard on him? Was there something I could’ve done better? Was I in the wrong for cutting him out? …why did it all have to go wrong?”

And yeah, it is possible that some people would get peace from his death. But probably not most of them. Especially not Hollyhock, who already knew about all the mental health struggles he had dealt with and already had a penchant for blaming herself.

And what of the people still actively in his life at that point? Todd, Princess Carolyn, Mr. Peanutbutter, and Diane. His death would’ve done nothing but hurt them, especially Diane. She was affected badly enough when she thought he might be dead but it turned out he actually wasn’t, imagine how badly she would’ve been affected if he’d stayed dead. I can’t think of any way his death wouldn’t helped anything or anyone.

In conclusion, Bojack staying alive in TVFHD was for the best, and his dying would’ve been bad for both the characters and the overall narrative of the show.

[calltoamentor]

Semicolons, Trauma, and the Creative Process

I am the child of a parent who completed suicide, and today is my 32nd birthday. In two years, I will be the same age as my father when his story ended. Being the eldest daughter of a parent who died that way is a walk of love, grief, and resentment.

Daily writing promptWhat tattoo do you want and where would you put it?View all responses I am the child of a parent who completed suicide, and today is my 32nd birthday. In two years, I will be the same age as my father when his story ended. He left many beautiful connections, many who loved and missed him.He also left the shards of a broken and abusive home that would leave the rippling…

[dongslinger--420]

No I'm not done actually. Morally grey characters in BoJack Horseman are one of the main themes and as a result I don't believe anyone is 100% bad or good. But I think this especially applies to Joseph. I see a lot of videos with him where people comment that they used to kind of like him and see him as sympathetic until they watched Times Arrow or until they finished The Old Sugarman Place or something, but the fact of the matter is that if Joseph were evil, he wouldn't have been happily married. If Joseph were evil, he would've lobotomized his wife at the first chance he got, but the thing that people keep forgetting is that he very specifically lobotomized Honey because she was PROVING TO BE AN ACTIVE DANGER TO THE LIFE OF HIS DAUGHTER. Sure, he only had one solution to this problem, but he waited until the last possible moment to use said solution.

Also, just think about it. A man who tortures the women he's close to, just because he's horrible and never bothered to think how they would feel? We already have a character like that in the show, who is portrayed as a parodic caricature. But a man who is 100% a product of his upbringing, never thinking of trying to be anything else? A man who, despite this upbringing, still loves his wife and daughter? A man who has such a misguided view on how to support said wife and daughter that he believes that destroying his daughter's possessions and lobotomizing his wife is as thoughtful and helpful as teaching his daughter to stand up for herself against her bullies, and standing up for his daughter against his wife?

Spine-chilling.

[sapph1cyearning]

Wilhelm's Mental Health; Autism or Borderline Personality Disorder?

Wilhelm’s mental health status is a complex issue that has been heavily commentated on by the fandom, from what I've observed within the YR fandom, a large number of fans headcanon Wilhelm as having autism but I hope to explore autism and it's symptomology outside of the white male perspective that is defaulted upon in autistic representation by overviewing symptoms that contribute to the interpretations of Wilhelm having either Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) or Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). These two disorders can show up in similar forms, and often get misdiagnosed (especially women and non-white people are immediately pointed toward the BPD diagnosis rather than ASD due to assessor’s prejudice and society's higher expectations for minority groups to mask autistic traits while in public but that’s another story). A key difference between the two is that ASD is a genetic disorder while BPD is a disorder that develops due to childhood trauma. Both disorders have a high likelihood for comorbidity with other mental disorders such as depression, anxiety, and PTSD.

Content Warning: Frank commentary of symptoms associated with Borderline Personality Disorder and Autism Spectrum Disorder, including: self-harm, substance abuse, and emotional dysregulation.

Disclaimer: I am not a mental health professional but I am autistic, and I’ve known quite a number of people with either BPD or autism [Years ago, I stayed at a long-term DBT-based treatment center, a therapeutic specialty for created to address BPD that has been expanded to treat other mental health struggles and disorders that go hand-in-hand with BPD symptoms (Substance abuse, self-harm, OCD, etc.)]. This is also solely based on what is seen in the show, not actors' interpretations that are expressed through interviews.

Throughout the series Wilhelm (W) is seen engaging in a multitude of behaviors and experiences feelings that he expresses verbally that could be interpreted as fitting as symptoms of both.

Notably the scene where W is seen smacking his temple with his palm (1x05) can be interpreted as either: purposeful self-harm (a common self-destructive coping mechanism for overwhelming emotions in BPD; his alcohol and drug use could be described similarly) or a self-stimulatory behavior (stimming), a characteristic of ASD to aid in regulating or expressing intense emotions (while W is only seen engaging in this with a “negative” emotion, stimming can be used with all emotions), other example include his chest-rubbing, and frequent caressing of different textures.

Intense mood-swings, anger, and difficulties with emotion processing, this is quite evident in W's actions, emotional responses, and feelings he expresses verbally. Both disorders have been observed to have intense changes of emotions at a “drop of a hat.” ASD mood-swings are typically related to exposure to sensory input that is quite uncomfortable, overstimulation, and/or meltdowns (breakdowns due to a culmination of intense feelings, sensory input and/or overwhelming experiences). BPD mood-swings and impulsive actions are more related to triggers of trauma responses, and a lack of regulatory measures

Symptoms Specific to Each Disorder:

BPD:

Attachment to Favorite Person (FP), a symptom of BPD where one idolizes one person in their life to an extreme degree, wanting to spend all their time with their FP, and intense anger and despair with perceived betrayals/slights against them/mistakes. W goes through 2 FPs (Erik and Simon). He adores Erik, and feels betrayal when Erik leaves him at Hillerska. Simon quickly becomes a FP, seeing him as perfect and feeling betrayal when Simon messes up (drug dealing) and the utter despair and hopelessness when Simon needs space and starts dating Marcus; “It feels like I’m going to die” (2x04) (Could be a consequence of being utterly isolated due to being Royal and latching onto anyone who shows care to him)

Unstable / Ineffective Relationships (Simon, Kristina, Minou, and other hierarchy figures): BPD is often associated with people with the disorder lashing out against "completely innocent" people for "no reason", while this can be accurate, it does not account for the triggering of such episodes (See above)

Substance Abuse: People with BPD may utilize alcohol and/or other substances to "numb themselves" from BPD symptoms or distance themselves from harmful memories (autistic people also experience substance abuse and addiction at higher rates than the general allistic population but it is often seen as a crutch to cope with the constant stress of existing in an allistic world which is not implied in what draws W to substance use throughout the show)

ASD:

Expansion on Sensory Issues: W seemingly wears the same sweater-button up combo often, just with different sweater colors — Grey, teal, and that god-awful bright orange — ensures safe textures when buying new items but he might just have a clothing stylist with horrid taste. W's struggles with the suffocating feel of the suit (2x05). He rarely utilized the overhead lights in his room, instead relied on his string lights, lamps or natural lighting (Florescent and LED lights can trigger light sensitivity and contribute to sensory processing difficulties in autistic people)

Preoccupation with the concept of normalcy (1x01), as a kid being autistic often ostracizes you from your peers, being deemed the “weird kid” is very damaging thus W may have been enticed by the prospect attending a regular high school to like "normal people" (this concept is intrinsically tied to social class throughout the show, W wants normalcy of a lower class while Sara wants conform to a higher class but that's a different spiel). This can lead to masking; the act of forcing oneself to hide their autistic traits in order to fit into Allistic norms. (My one dispute to this interpretation is he's seemingly more disgruntled by the pomp and circumstance of being Royal that "others" him rather than peers judging him)

Lack of social cues (Not even going to waste my time explaining this one, the man had no game, absolutely none, it’s a wonder that he pulled Simon)

This far from a full list of symptoms seen in W's characterization but it's a broad overview of the signs I saw from an autistic lens. I lean towards Wille having Borderline Personality Disorder based on the fact that significant aspects of Autism Spectrum Disorder can be correlated to his unfortunate circumstance of being royalty.

[unhingedfrnke]

Diane Nguyen is for the people who (as a kid) thought they'd be better at life than they are right now.

She's for the people who never know how to say those things to their parents.

She's for the girls who can't allow themselves to be happy because the idea of being happy is so peculiar that it feels sort of like a crime.

Diane is for the girls who could never say goodbye to the people who hurt them (and continue to hurt them) the most.

(she's so for me)

[brinelake-innerworld]

Watching Bojack Horseman honestly makes me wonder how far back half these jokes are planned.

<spoilers!>

In Season 4, when Diane goes to Vietnam, she says she wants to "get the full non-L.A. experience" and in the background there's a sign reading "nón lá," a traditional Vietnamese hat.

So good.

[lasnevadaslaborunion]

"We both had our lives ruined by the same person"

And that's the key, isn't it?

Everything c!Quackity destroyed. Every person c!Quackity scammed, manipulated, threatened, or hurt. It was framed as a harsh kindness (and perhaps on some level, he truly saw it as such!), but it was so fundamentally self-centered. It was all projection. It was looking in a mirror, punching it so you don't have to look at the ugly disfigurement you see, bloodying your knuckles on the shards, and leaving them on the sink for others to pick up and cut themselves on, too.

Everything he loved about c!Charlie, he rejected in himself, because if he had to have it beaten out of him to survive, he sure as hell wouldn't be the only one. If he needed to rip that live and trust and naiveté out of his own chest, he had to pull it out of c!Charlie's too. If they learned their lessons, they would be learning together. If they didn't learn, they would die together. He loved him, truly, deeply, loved him, the way the singer loves a listening ear and the way an artist loves the rough sketch on their canvas and the way every person ought to love their headstone. c!Quackity wasn't letting go of his one chance, his newest friend, the one person he trusted not to leave him behind.

But c!Charlie did let go.

He had to. How could he not? He was slipping away with every convoluted word, every contradiction. Perhaps hearing from the man his friend tortured and the boy whose home he destroyed hastened the process, but c!Charlie is smart. So much smarter than anyone - c!Dream, c!Purpled, c!Quackity himself - gave him credit for. He'd seen the downfalls of civilizations, and he knew where c!Quackity's path would take him.

c!Quackity claimed he was building a legacy, but that's just a prettier way of saying he built a tomb. And c!Charlie was the first person to be buried there. He couldn't watch it happen again, not when he knew enough to interfere.

"I hope you leave behind a good one" was a rejection of that legacy, but I also like to think it was a genuine sentiment. That c!Charlie was telling his teacher, his betrayer, his friend, his enemy, the one who loved him so much he taught him what it means to hate: "I hope that someday, when you are gone, someone will mourn you like you mourned me."

[duchesscelestia]

the first episode of a new series called artful analysis is now live, discussing how diane nguyen from bojack horseman tells the relatable story of artists being torn between passion and profit!

[wateroflifefrommountains]

On Cassandra Cain and "Good Damage": A reaction and a reflection of the character and the concept.

Good damage is a term coined in an episode of Bojack Horseman and with the same title [Good Damage] and is a term referring to damage or trauma suffered which results in a positive outcome for the one who suffered said trauma. In the said episode of Bojack Horseman, Diane was trying to write a book based on the trauma she suffered. She was attempting to channel the pain and the bleakness of her life into a grim yet meaningful work of literature [her essays]. However, whenever she tries, it ends up terrible. The words are not right the atmosphere is not there and the pain isn't yielding any good. On the other hand, whenever she writes in a cheerful and upbeat manner, she makes a killing as the work is genuinely good. This confuses and hurts her. She feels like pain and suffering should amount to something and that there should be a pay-off to all the bullshit; however, she couldn't do it. The pain brought her nothing positive - it was not "Good Damage" - it was just damage. In the end, she realizes that damage is pain, damage is trauma, and while they COULD be sources of inspiration; they are, first and foremost, DAMAGE. She then writes in the bubbly and colorful manner she is good at and succeeds in it.

Cassandra Cain can be described as the poster child of this concept as the skills and the physique she has were all a product of abusive and outsight violent acts done upon her and her mother, Lady Shiva. Her damage is that she was abused as a kid by being deprived of verbal language, being shot and stabbed, and being made to kill. Her creation, and in turn, Shiva's damage was the trauma of being forced to bear the child of the man who murdered your sister after being ganged up and beaten yourself. The outcomes or fruits that make them "Good Damage" are the prodigious skill and foresight via body language reading of Cassandra Cain as well as a "freeing" of Shiva and her unmatched drive to be the strongest.

However, what if her damage wasn't "Good Damage". If stories are constantly going to have her lose then so be it, but acknowledge that all the pain, blood, and abuse David Cain put Cassandra and, in extension, Shiva through were ultimately worthless and amounted to nothing. There was no "Good Damage" if all of that was only to produce an above-average ninja girl whose powers of observation and prediction can be learned, copied, and/or easily countered by other members of the Batfamily. If it can be learned some other way, then putting your own daughter through all of that was pointless. He did not make the perfect fighter, he made a broken girl. She chose to be a hero.

Show us her struggle with getting to terms with that. Maybe explore Cassandra's sick and possibly naive notion that her father did make her the greatest weapon, her falling back to that idea whenever she remembers the pain and the pride she derives from that idea and the subsequent humility and shame in realizing that she was wrong both in her assumptions and her pride. Give us a thesis on why she shouldn't be hurt or disparaged because of this realization. Give her the spotlight and show her growth. Show buckling after realizing she wasn't even his success he was her father's failure, that all that trauma, all that blood, and all that pain, was useless in the grand scheme of things. It happened to her, it hurt her, and it made her believe she was an object - a weapon - but there was no light or success or breakthrough at the end of the said process - she just made one for herself. Not every story has a happy ending so you make a different story for yourself. A MISTAKE was inflicted upon her, that's it. Her heroism and her prowess did not stem from that, they came to be despite it. There is even some precedent to this as after Cassandra lost her edge and her body reading skills, it was Shiva who helped her regain them despite not suffering her lack of language skills [ at the cost of a deathmatch 1 year hence]. This means that her ability can be learned although it could be argued that it is limited to mother and daughter.

Exploring "Good Damage" and the utter stupidity of it all through the lens of Cassandra Cain's character and lore would suffice. I'd never question her losses, her failures, and her seemingly inconsistent abilities. It would be pointless as she isn't the strongest or the most skilled or the most anything really; rather, she's just a person trying to do right to the world that didn't do the same to her. Her father failed, that's his flaw, and it doesn't apply to her. Her story stops being about the weapon that chose to be a hero or about how being the strongest doesn't mean winning; rather, it turns into being about moving forward despite being broken. The character would still be interesting albeit in a diminished manner as the mystique and allure of her being the best fighter is removed and her story becomes more mundane in the superhero world. Either that or it could conclude her career as a hero fulfilled and without guilt; close her story if it is not going anywhere. God knows she deserves it.

I'll write a better essay soon, one that is more concise and with more sources. After some reflection, my problem isn't that she gets dogged every other fight when the book is not about her, but that the losses feel pointless. I get that the winner will always be the one the writer chooses and what the story demands; hence, if the story needs her to get out of the way, she's getting out of the way. But if ever the Gotham War progresses in a manner I'd like to read I'd want it to progress in a way that treats the character as a character and not as a set-piece. Even as a side character, I want to hear her thoughts, even by a bit. Her doubts, her fears, her concerns, anything. However, at this point, that might be asking too much though.

[iknow-im-cute]

Season 3, episode 4 of Bojack Horseman is like a small sliver of proof for the audience that maybe Bojack isn't the worst person in the world. He goes underwater for some press thing for the Oscars. He can't drink or smoke or do drugs underwater. He ends up on a bus where he has to help a seahorse deliver it's babies, and then one gets left behind so he has to take care of it. The seahorse baby gets hungry so he has to buy it some food, meanwhile he's keeping this baby safe and entertained. He finally gets to a gas station and when he goes to pay for the food, the cashier refuses to take his currency because they use a different kind underwater. He throws the money at the cashier, the cashier takes out a crowbar and a bat and goes after him for stealing the items.

Bojack starts to really grow fond of this baby. He risked his life for it multiple times throughout the episode. We can see him smiling at it, entertaining it, and doing a really good job of taking care of this child that doesn't belong to him. (In some way, I want to say that this is a reference to his big bender with Sara Lynn in season 3, where he fantasizes about a life he could've had with Charlotte and how in the fantasy he is an amazing father).

But the instance I really want to talk about is when he sees this stream of water going up. He goes into it with the baby and he soon realizes that it is taking them to this huge, industrial fan that could shred them both into pieces. He holds onto the baby's hand as tight as he could, but its hand slipped and it went straight towards the fan. Bojack has to think and act quickly, so he pushes himself up towards the fan and stops it with his glass oxygen bubble thing he has around his head to keep him from dying. The thing that gets me is how he had no idea whether or not it would hold up under the pressure of the fan. It could've burst the bubble and caused him to drown and die, but the baby would've been okay. He did it not for his own benefit, but because it was the right thing to do in his mind. It was a completely selfless act.

[bojackandherb]

In your DDAU, how would Herb ended Hosrin Around? Would The Bojack Horseman Show be a thing?

Herb would give Horsin around a much happier ending haha. It would probably end in 1997 or something—even with a better writer (Herb never gets fired), shows can only last so long.

As for the Horsin around show, I really doubt that’d be a thing. It would stay as Mitch’s life. Declared dead Bojack has a kinda different set of issues than canon Bojack does. He’s not as reliant on Horsin around to fill the void of love in him that his parents never filled, since crackerjack gave him plenty of love. Instead, the mentality that influences him more is “you better do something great to make up for all the damage you did” that his mother instilled in him when he was still living with her. Though many other mentalities she instilled in him were unlearned while living with Crackerjack, this one stuck around, because as much as crackerjack tried to hide it, Bojack could see the way Crackerjack still struggled with his PTSD symptoms and thought crackerjack would be better off without him. He secretly felt like a burden and that it would be better if crackerjack didn’t have to worry about taking care of him in addition to dealing with all the trauma and problems he had. (Little did he know that couldn’t be further from the truth, and that taking care of Bojack actually improved CJ’s mental state and encouraged him to take better care of himself…)

Anyway Bojack still ends up spiraling out in the 90s, but in a kinda different way, and thanks to the support of crackerjack he’s able to recover and make up with Herb before the show even ends.

In canon, losing Herb had only made him cling to the fame of Horsin around even harder, and got him stuck in a cycle of guilt->drinking/doing drugs/having sex/etc to forget the guilt-> doing more crappy things because of this->feeling guilty. Because he doesn’t Herb, he doesn’t get trapped in this cycle in the same way (tho he still has some problems with guilt). Anyway, having crackerjack and Herb still in his life does wonders for Bojack, they’re anchors to him.

Because of this, in the declared dead au he has a much easier time letting Horsin around go, and doesn’t fall into a deep depression or become a hermit after Horsin around ends. He’d still be sad, about it, but considering he didn’t put the entirety of his self fulfillment and self worth in that show and his fame, it’s not world ending or anything. He’d probably be happy to spend a lot of time with Herb and his uncle, as well as other friends like Charlotte and Sharona. He’d probably end up doing a lot of traveling with Herb and working on himself. He’d probably still take some small acting gigs occasionally but nothing too big for a while. Mitch’s life might still end up being the first actual tv show/ big project he does after Horsin around ends, just for entirely different reasons than in canon

Anyway sorry that turned out super long, to figure out how Bojack could’ve turned out differently you first have to figure out exactly why/how Bojack turned out the way he did in canon, and that’s something I’ve thought about A LOT

[calltoamentor]

The Cracks in Good Damage

Diane Nguyen is one of the most complex characters on Bojack Horseman. Her journey both as someone overcoming a lifetime of trauma and as someone who wants to live by her creative passions take her through a process that many creatives relate to.

Yeah, but I’m not writing a book to have fun. If I don’t write my book of essays now, I never will.–Diane Nguyen, Bojack HorsemanIt is not often we find a character who so perfectly encapsulates the struggles of being a creative living with trauma and depression quite so thoroughly as Diane Nguyen from the Netflix series Bojack Horseman. Starting the series as a ghost writer, using her voice to…

[dongslinger--420]

Escape From LA: How BoJack Horseman deconstructs the sitcom

A LOT of BoJack's characterisation is based on the fact that he sees life as a sitcom. You can't separate BoJack the show nor BoJack the character from sitcoms. So much of the show is based on deconstructing sitcom tropes, and that BoJack thinks that the sitcom solution will work in his life. Take that episode in season 1 where Diane and PB are getting married: BoJack keeps trying to create increasingly complicated situations to sabotage their marriage because he has a crush on Diane, because that's what would happen in a sitcom. But none of them actually work. Diane and PB get married anyway because, why wouldn't they? And the episode ends with Todd telling BoJack that he should just give up.

The sitcom thing is played for laughs to varying degrees throughout the show, with Escape From LA being one example that is exclusively played for drama. The entire episode is set up like an episode of a 90s sitcom: BoJack is extremely close with Penny and involved in her life, there are characters with quirks and catchphrases, BoJack does his stupid BoJack dance at the dance, BoJack acts as the "cool grown up friend" to all of Penny's friends, the New Mexico leitmotif plays throughout the episode as a scene transition, the bjhm theme song is replaced by an 80s sitcom parody of a theme called "Kyle And The Kids".

But the thing about all of this is that the show isn't a sitcom, and everything I just listed has a real life consequence.

Much like bjhm itself does, at the start of the episode the show plays this sitcom subversion for laughs. Pete Repeat has an extremely stupid character quirk both in and out of the context of the story, and he never fucking says anything twice! Because that's stupid! BoJack's stupid dance gets him boo'd off the dance floor because realistically why would a group of teenagers do a 51yo man dance. Kyle And The Kids is immediately followed by a joke about Penny's younger brother Trip having an unprompted erection, which would crucially never happen in an 80s sitcom because, although normal, is not family friendly by any stretch of the imagination.

The rest of my points, however, are subverted in a darker way. BoJack's closeness with Penny means that he knows a lot about her life, and the scene where they go through their plan on what to do also has Charlotte in the room, who has no idea what they're talking about, showing us that this is not a normal level of what an adult knows (there's more to say about this one but I'll get to it later). BoJack acting as the "cool grown up friend" involves giving teenagers bourbon (bearing in mind these kids have only ever drunk beer), and eventually one of them gets alcohol poisoning and ends up going to the hospital. And every time the New Mexico leitmotif is used in the following seasons (i.e. every time New Mexico is mentioned), it is used as something to haunt BoJack. It's the equivalent of having an extremely dirty and terrible association with the Hannah Montana music.

It's difficult to decipher exactly what stereotypical role BoJack is supposed to be taking in this hypothetical episode of Kyle And The Kids, or whatever you want to call it. I think he's supposed to be taking the role of "father". "Father" is the role that he played on Horsin Around. "Father" is what he (at least originally) wanted to be in relation to Penny. "Father" is something that he has one frame of reference for: The Horse.

There is a line in Sabrina's Christmas Wish where Olivia is complaining about the boy she's talking to, and The Horse offers to take her to the dance. The funny thing about this line is that it's not at all out of place in Horsin Around, because it's normal for sitcom parents to have that level of involvement with their children. In fact, they have to, in a narrative context, because it's a dom com, and you have to have the characters interact with each other because that's just how stories work. However, it is out of place in Escape From LA, purely because we have Charlotte as a frame of reference. Charlotte and Penny are very close, and are shown to be very close throughout all of their appearances. But Charlotte is reacting to the conversation with comments like "who are these people?" because she's still Penny's mother at the end of the day. I would say I'm close with my mum and I've never given her that much information about my crushes (it took me half of my one relationship to even tell her that I was in a relationship). And because of this distinction, Penny doesn't see BoJack as a parental figure. She sees him as a friend, which is why she falls in love with him later on.

The interesting thing about this episode is that because it's so sitcommy by design, it's extremely easy to root for BoJack on your first watch. Because the "father" or the "cool adult/uncle/whatever" role in a sitcom is one that's known, and the father in the sitcom would never do anything wrong. Especially considering the background information we have that Charlotte is the one who got away. We, at least to a degree, expect BoJack to actually end up with Charlotte at the end of the episode. When BoJack says things like "you look just like your mother", on our first watch of the episode we connect that to his want to be Penny's father, because that's also BoJack's intention. But then everything gets shattered, both in and out of universe, when Charlotte rejects BoJack. Because suddenly, both we and BoJack are supposed to deal with the fact that, actually, why would she have an affair with Kyle? What information do we have that she and Kyle are not happily married?* This is not a sitcom. So then, BoJack starts to panic. He starts to think irrationally, as this illusion he has been creating for himself for 3 months and/or 29 years starts to crumble. He starts to see Penny, not as a daughter, but as the next best option to being with Charlotte, the next best option to keep living this lie he keeps telling himself.

Sure, it seems like shock value the first time you watch it. Because it's a subversion. It's not what you expect by definition. But then after you rewatch the episode, you can't unsee it. Everything is recontextualised. It's no longer a sitcom.

Escape From LA is my second favourite penultimate episode in the entire show. Other than being one of the biggest parts of the show that wasn't spoilt for me, it's so beautifully constructed and subtle and genius that it remains gripping every time, and I love noticing a new thing about it every time.

*For this very reason, Kyle's lack of appearances and an active role in this episode is genius.

[minthe-lover]

Every single time I see a fan talking about critics.. it's just so like.. confusing-

We can't criticize lore olympus cause we aren't also actively criticizing every other single piece of media that has the same problems as lore olympus.. cause that makes sense ahfuekahek Like imagine analysis that had to work that way.

"Lore Olympus has often sexist undertones (it's not just lore Olympus so many shows are sexist, I'm not single lore Olympus out now here's a complete list of all other sexist media)"

Jsndjdnfjf like buddy if someone was taking about a problem they have with any piece of media they don't gotta bring up other media that does the same thing..

also we can't criticize lore olympus for being sexist because it's set in olympus and it's just.... people often confused a sexist setting and a sexist story. Yes lo is set in a sexist setting but that doesn't mean it's also sexist outside of that, like the setting being sexists doesn't mean that so many panel of persephone need to be so male-gazy.

Like take bojack horseman, it's a story set in hollywood and it is deeply sexist but the story itself it a feminist one. The environment and alot of the characters are sexist ones, but the story goes out of the way to make it clear that's terrible.

In season 5 theirs a line that always stuck out at me and shaped how I analysis media. In the scene Diane and bojack and talking about the show that bojack is the lead in. It's a deeply sexist show in universe, when bojack for semi complicated reasons is trying to find a way to explain why it's not sexist despite him knowing it is and Diane says "it poses as deconstruction of toxic masculinity but it's just using that to relish in it's own excesses"

It's something that I really think can be applied to lore Olympus. It's a story that presents itself as a #girlboss story about a women rising to power in a sexist society and uses that as a shield to try and avoid criticism about the other shitty elements of the story. Persephone harrass services workers is shaped to be a girlboss moments, sexism directed at other women are presented as less important as persephones story but exaused cause of the setting.

Basically my point is... Criticizing individual problems in media is important... And you need to look farther then how media simply presents itself cause it often just uses that as a shield.

[amber-angel]

I wish I knew more people who are as deeply obsessed with picking apart the symbolism in bojack horseman as I am

[lifeandtimesofpineapplehead]

So I just started watching BoJack horseman and so far I'm on episode 4 and I just want to say I knew Bojack wasn't a nice person but I did not know that he was not a good person. oh my God. He's straight up sabotaged Todd. orchestrated a whole plan to make sure his plans never amount to anything and that he'll always live in his house as a freeloader. all that because Bojack is so scared of being alone.

I knew he was bad but it didn't know he was THIS bad.

another character who's really standing out for me and who I can't quite clock is Mr peanut butter. there's something very off about him but I cannot put my finger on it. I see how he tries to copy Bojack and it's not even in subtle ways it's super out there. from having a show similar to his, getting someone to write a BuzzFeed article about him because he saw Bojack was writing a memoir....idk something feels off about him.

And the thing that puzzles me is why do they tolerate each other or at the very least why does Bojack tolerate Mr peanut butter when he knows that he's trying to be him. another thing about Mr peanut butter that I can't quite place is that he gives me the vibe of a nice guy who hasn't done anything wrong but still triggers your warning bells.

I'm on ep 4 so far, let's see how season 1 will pan out