#but like allosexual people will just lump all aro or ace people into an aroace pile

[iloveonionsverymuch]

Hey can we as a community stop combining ace and aro and aroace by default?

I love being ace. I love aro and aroace people (yall are cool). But i hate not having anything to relate to because im still romantic despite a lack of sexual attraction.

Idk just thinkin

[topsydead]

shit lets be discourse

I peeked at ace/mogai discourse, and it was a mistake. I don’t understand these people at all. They hate the split-attraction model so much, like, I didn’t even know it had a name? it’s just so normal to me? (That’s the concept of having both a sexual orientation and a romantic orientation.) And then they turn around and use the split-attraction model to claim that “aces are cishet” which fucking rustles my goddamn jimmies, like, they are calling me, a trans ace person, cishet. They don’t know they’re doing that, of course. They probably think all trans people may politely excuse themselves. But ace people are who I am. When you say “ace people are ___” I am listening, and you are talking to me. You call me cishet, and I am filled with porcupine quills. I did not come this far to be called cishet. Here’s the logic, btw-- “Ace people can be heteroromantic, and aro people can be heterosexual, so therefore aroaces are het.” When called out, I’m sure they say “well I don’t mean all, of course” but that will not stop them from using it to the point of “ace people aren’t LGBT, period” Listen to me now. If you reject SAM, then no ace person is ever het. If you accept SAM, then aces and aros are, between them, all types of sexual and romantic orientation, including bi, het, pan, lesbian, gay, and everything. Saying “ace people aren’t LGBT” or even better, “ace people are cishet” is ALWAYS WRONG if you reject SAM, and NOT NECESSARILY TRUE, AND THEREFORE WRONG WHEN TAKEN IN ABSOLUTE TERMS if you accept SAM.

Did I mention that rejection of SAM is rejection of aromantic allosexuals and I hate it?

Anyway point is, if you try to kick all ace and aro people out of LGBT space-- or try to shit on them-- as a group and on principle, you’re being gross and incorrect and you need to rethink your life.

And wow. Never thought I‘d live to see the truscum vs. tucute behavior come back as the LGBT vs MOGAI discourse, that’s a fucking Halloween miracle for me personally. MOGAI is literally just a different acronym, there isn’t different people in different acronyms, we aren’t split into camps, we don’t have exclusive members, and we’re all exactly cringe as the other. All the behavior you think you hate about MOGAI is the behavior cishets get on all of everyone queer for. You think being NB is new? You think aces are a new thing? You think furries are new? You think sapiosexuality is a new concept? Sorry to bust your bubble but the mystical entity known as “MOGAI” didn’t make these things exist, or even start the terminology, not by a fucking long shot. All you’re doing is pushing queer people into camps and making them strawman eachother until we all fall apart. And, YES, everyone is to fucking blame. I’ve seen this shit behavior from lesbians, NBs, aces, trans people, and all sorts of types and combinations. And everyone’s calling eachother mogai and exclusionists and TERF and cishet and all sorts of things, I’m not even fucking sure who’s participating anymore. All I know is it’s hell and I hate it. Yeah, we can talk about the problematic nature of some stuff, like I’m still not on board with sapio cause it seems ableist but I’m willing to listen...? And some queer people think that pedos and drag queens and furries and cishet women are included in MOGAI and hate the idea of being lumped together, and some people think that intersex people shouldn’t (or don’t want to) be included in any of these things, but fuck, who am I to decide, right? But that doesn’t make MOGAI some sort of magical enemy, it doesn’t make aroace rejection any less reprehensible, and it doesn’t make LGBT the best or most valid term in the world. And last, I fucking love wlw, but why the hell are y’all always at the forefront of this bullshit? What is happening??? It makes it feel like an extension of TERF bullshit, even though plenty of wlw aren’t terfs and are great people... I just don’t get why this keeps happening. And don’t give me any lines like “lesbians are tired of dealing with men’s bullshit” because we are so far beyond that with this. That’s some hard, surface-level reductionist shit and meanwhile we’re out here swimming in the void. Unless that IS the general concept. In which case, I’ll gladly take a trip to the moon and punch Aphrodite in the fucking face. Let me be clear: lesbians (coordinately and as a group) literally attacked me, personally during a critical time in my life, and hurt people close to me that I care about. I’ve also met super chill lesbians who are great and helped me and my network a lot. What I’m saying is that being a lesbian doesn’t make you the goddess of the queers or the arbiter of labels or the holy gatekeeper of what is and isn’t oppression. It gives you no fucking rights at all except the same ones all humans get just for being human. It makes me sad that every time I see a queer person is shitting on other queers on this hellsite, it’s a wlw. If someone can give me an honest explanation I would love it. And if you happen to actually be a terf. Well. Fuck right off and never come back. I’m super done and never coming back to this discourse.

[arotaro]

The thing about aro erasure is like... aromanticism is, by nature, tied to the split attraction model. And I know there are people who don’t like the split attraction model, and that sometimes “asexual” is considered to also include “aromantic” in the same way that “heterosexual” also generally implies “heteroromantic”. And so it’s assumed that if you just say “asexual”, that ought to be good enough for aro people, right? We should just assume they’re including us too, because obviously they’re not using the split attraction model, so we’re asexual.

But the thing is, just because you don’t choose to use the split attraction model for your own identity doesn’t mean that it’s not an important part of other people’s identities, and it certainly doesn’t give you the right to strip that away from them.

Lumping aros in as part of the “asexual umbrella” or whatever bullshit does a lot of damage to all aros. Asexuality is specifically the lack of sexual attraction, which is not what aromanticism is. Using “asexual” as a blanket term ostracizes allosexual aros, who experience sexual attraction, but not romantic attraction. It can sometimes hurt aroaces, because sometimes focus is put on dating and romance while being ace. Not to mention that a lot of supposedly aro-inclusive things focus only on asexuality, and don’t really talk about the issues unique to aromanticism.

When I see posts that are like “gay, straight, lesbian, bi, pan, and asexual”, I don’t think “Oh, I fit in with the ‘asexual’ part,” I think “Oh... they forgot me again. I guess I’m not wanted here.” When I try to look for aro resources outside of Tumblr, I wind up having to look for ace resources, because we’re so often assumed to just be part of the ace community... But I can never tell if something actually includes allo aros, or even aros at all, so I just wind up feeling confused and unwelcome and just give up on it.

Not to mention that aromanticism is an identity in itself! It doesn’t necessarily has anything to do with asexuality, and certainly isn’t any lesser than asexuality. We’re here. We are an identity like any other, and should be treated as such, instead of just being the tiny little footnote all the time, constantly in asexuality’s shadow.

Yes, asexuality and aromanticism have similarities, and the ace community and the aro community tend to overlap, but they are not the same thing. You absolutely cannot use asexuality as a blanket term, because it hurts aros. It erases us, pushes an identity that isn’t necessarily correct on us, and tells us that we’re not important enough to be included on our own. If you mean “asexual and aromantic”, please, say so. Don’t assume that saying “asexual” automatically includes us, because I can tell you that as an aro person, I always assume the opposite.

[librafluid]

Things in The Discourse™ that need to stop

There are a few shitty things that keep happening, which I hope we can at least agree should Stop? It doesn’t matter which side you’re on or whether you’re ace or allo, but it’d be nice if we could do these things less. In general you should keep in mind that people, especially children, may make mistakes out of ignorance. That isn’t to say that some disgusting things haven’t gone down throughout this mess, but petty things like “we’ll stop being nasty when you do” don’t solve anything. 

It’s difficult for me to word this as not all inclusionists are aspec, nor are all exclusionists allo, so I have to generalise, sorry. I try to be as inclusive of aro people in this as I can, but a large number of arguments centralise asexuals. This post is primarily to point out issues and try to approach them reasonably. Also: I’m white, so please tell me if I’m out of my lane anywhere.

“Ace tumblr” doesn’t exist in the sense of a side in the discourse. We aren’t a hive mind. Neither are exclusionists, but there is a difference between generalising an exclusionary movement and generalising an entire orientation. Both are diverse in their members and viewpoints, but one of them isn’t something that can change.

Being an “ex-ace” doesn’t give you the right to demean them or MOGAI identities. While they might be used to avoid internalised prejudice by some, you actively hurt people who cannot comfortably fit into the LGBT quartet. Just because you realised you are not ace does not give you the right to speak over or deny their experiences.

Saying that aces are inherently “purer” because of their orientation occurs on both sides. Yes, aspec identities are orientations, not modifiers. This occurs in aces making serophobic jokes or comments, which is bad, but also in allos mocking aces and implying that we all actually think of ourselves as better. Aspec people can have sex regardless of whether they are attracted to someone, as can any allo person. Acting as if allosexuals​ are somehow inherently more sexual forgets hypersexual aces and sex averse allos. The sex shaming of people who are allosexual can stop, and so can mockeries of aces.

I haven’t seen any crytyping jokes in a while good job everyone. They didn’t add anything to this mess anyway.

Things like “aceys uwu” are… Not Good. I get it if someone’s being an asshole, though this comes off as mocking or patronising their orientation. Doing it specifically because of that is Rude.

As for cishet aspecs: they have privilege over trans/nb and non-het people. They are cis. They are straight. They are part of an oppressor group, but guess who else is? Cis gays. Het trans people. Intersectionality results in privileges overlapping, and while they are privileged and some may be terrible people, that is no different from any other group. Cishets are our oppressors, but that doesn’t make it impossible for them to be respectful or need resources in regards of their asexuality or aromanticism.

Het aspecs are not accepted on the same level as a cisgender heteroromantic heterosexual - they are straight, but can suffer for their orientation as other LGBT+ people do. They may not be oppressed on the same scale, but they face systemic stigma: aros are frequently demonised as abusive or unloving, especially if not aroace. Asexuality is not the same as chastity, and aces are viewed as broken/inhuman by alloromantic, allosexual het people. Erasing this is harmful and does little beyond alienating people who may genuinely need resources and help.

It’d be nice if we stop pushing the ahistorical narrative that aspecs are some kind of trespassers who are barging into a place they’ve never been involved in? Whether they were under the B due to a lack of terms or labelled as Group X, aspecs have been involved in the LGBT+ community for a while. For that matter, don’t pretend the community formed all of a sudden one day to fight homophobia and transphobia and functioned in perfect harmony. It was a struggle to even get the L and G together, and ushering this false history to the point of enforcing the restriction of SGA (ironic as some people despise the use of the Q word at all, despite its history) is harmful. Doing this also ignores the history, issues and spirit of the community.

Oppression Olympics don’t achieve much, and lumping bi/ply/pan and nonbinary people into homophobia and transphobia erase the specific experiences of those identities. They intersect, but they are individual and so is aphobia, even if a lot of issues overlap or aren’t as severe. 

When people say that certain arguments and methods are reminiscent of bi discourse or TERF arguments, it isn’t with the intention of saying that you’re a complete biphobe or transphobe. They are likely talking from experience, when they say some arguments resemble the style of previous gatekeeping movements. It might be a good idea to consider why those methods are being used. 

This fighting is no longer about cishets, when aspecs who you would consider part of the community anyway are getting hurt and attacked. When poc are having their identity erased, when survivors are being harrassed. The discourse is becoming an excuse for some nasty happenings from people of all opinions and stances, and collateral damage like this isn’t worth it.

TL;DR: all stances on the ace discourse and all orientations have unsavoury individuals, but not all people within those groups are the same as them. Please try to be decent people and be decent to people, and give them a chance to learn. Preferably while not having aspecs as a backdrop for your shit.

[bonesandblood-sunandmoon]

Aro Community Wishlist

CoA prompt for Nov 2019 - “Aro Community Wishlists” [Call for Submissions].

A by no means exclusive wishlist:

Resources: For mental health professionals.

Despite previously internally freaking out about disclosure to the intake counselor, I actually stuck with simply answering questions without diving into explanations. I vagueblogged about it, but it would just take a little tweaking to phrasing on their questionnaire to reduce the mental translation.

Q: How long was your last [context: romantic] relationship?

Thanks for assuming that I’ve had one. Now, instead of filling in the amount of time, I have to add an answer the system wasn’t prepared for.

Q: How many intimate [translation: sexual] partners have you had?

Please just cut to the chase if you mean sex because intimacy isn’t exclusively sexual, and I’ll wind up with a different answer than what you’re trying to ask if I pick apart what an intimate partner means. (My first thought was emotional intimacy after having a question where I had to answer if I had someone “as a support”, but I can overshare emotional shit with far more people than I’ve “been sexually intimate with”.)

I would also appreciate if I knew I could mention quoi, greyro, or the aro spectrum in passing without needing to walk the therapist I’ll be assigned (for the actual counseling) through basic terms. I made a point of asking for an LGBTQ-aware therapist in order to hopefully avoid that for basic trans terms, but I honestly don’t know what they’re going to know yet.

Resources: For other health professionals.

It kind of depends on the area in question if a medical person really needs to grok a-spec identities or could get by with introductory knowledge, but if someone’s intake questionnaire only asks me about sexual orientation, I would ideally like to know they’d understand my answers if I were honest. This whole five answer deal doesn’t give me a lot of faith - 1) Hetersexual, 2) Homosexual, 3) Bisexual, 4) Other with space to write in, and 5) Choose not to disclose. I must admit that I wouldn’t really expect every medical specialist to ask, but if I have to get referred to someone dealing with sexual health, I really wish someone could offer them some training or something.

(Please not that I used ‘a-spec’ on purpose here. I know aros don’t want to be lumped in with aces while forming a separate community, but if we’re talking about updating that intake questionnaire and general awareness, someone should also be brought in to cover the ace part. As much as the split attraction model isn’t helpful for some a-spec people, it provides a quick way to explain why anyone is even trying to talk about aromanticism when the question was about sexual orientation. And fixing the gender choices under that section (also vented about). Like, thanks for the attempt, but please, actually do the LGBTQIA+ friendly thing right.)

Intra-Community: If general aro spaces are set up to be romance free for the romance-repulsed, what do the romance-confused do?

It’s where the quoi in the greyro/quoi really shines through, but I struggle with how I’m supposed to warn for romo [link] or contribute to something like RomoAlert [link]. Granted, some of these questions are community level works in progress, but when romance is a nebulous, ‘red-orange, qamuSHa',  4i’ situation, it can come across like it’s horribly easy to set off romance-repulsion and make fellow aros uncomfortable. [qamuSHa' means “I love you” in Klingon, which is being used as ‘language I assume the reader also does not know’ in the metaphor.]

Intra-Community/Subgroup: So . . . those quoiromantic folks?

It’s one thing to opt out of interacting with specific romance-repulsed users, but if I extend non-interaction to general aro spaces, I wouldn’t really have much of an aro community to interact with. It’s possible that spaces that make room for romance-favorability might be easier to navigate because I won’t be setting of someone’s repulsion on accident, but that doesn’t really solve the larger issue of how to handle quoiromantic interaction within aro spaces. (Not to mention that romance-favorability is sometimes talked about as if it’s a small, confusing, practically mythical section of the aro community, so telling quoiromantic people to just go hang out with the romance-favorable aros doesn’t actually come across as helpful.)

At least on tumblr, there’s a lot of pride merchandise and including quoi in aro-spec lists, so I’m writing from the assumption that quoiros are supposed to be included in the aro community. (See “(What) does the aro community want (with) quoiros?” [link] for a more uncertain take.) I’m not entirely sure where else people who don’t jive with romantic attraction, don’t understand it, and may not be able to differentiate it from other forms of attraction are supposed to go. Maybe quoiros could chill with the idemromantics, some of the nebularomantics, who knows how many others. *shrug* But, like, what will the aro community do?

I’m not saying that quoi/greyro people like myself should take over the limelight and be the focus of general aro resources, but sometimes, there’s a feeling akin to thinking your carpool group will remember you (you have a designated seat in the back and everything) only to realize that they’re rushing to your location because the driver forgot you. I don’t want to become the driver of the carpool just so I’ll get remembered, y’know? Mostly, I don’t want to feel like an afterthought that’s inconveniencing others with last minute accommodations, or something along those lines.

Subgroup: Aros who may experience hypersexuality.

I know I’ve seen acknowledgement (#positivity), but that doesn’t feel the same as actually addressing hypersexuality. Hypersexuality is talked about separately from allo/ace as self-identifiers because it’s not a sexual orientation, so a hypersexual aro may be allosexual, asexual, gray, demi, etc. However, when it comes to how aro community spaces are talked about, discussions of sex and sexuality can get roughly sorted under alloaro, so it’s likely a hypersexual person of any sexual orientation will utilize alloaro resources unless sex related discussions are not designated as happening in solely alloaro spaces.

~ Do aroaces want their own spaces for any discussions of hypersexuality in the aro community? Do they want to utilize ace community spaces? What about aros who aren’t comfortable with and/or don’t use the allo/ace division? I’m honestly not sure, but the impression that any aro who needs a space that allows sexual discussions is an alloaro means the seemingly common reassurance that alloaros aren’t “using” or manipulating sexual partners can fall flat.

Now, I am *not* saying that all hypersexual people, across the board, do in fact use and manipulate people, but it doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see how hypersexual aros can be portrayed as an example of a negative stereotype or be misinterpreted as attacking alloaros if they come in with questions or concerns about manipulating people.

~ How do hypersexual aros balance talking about negative symptoms/side effects/episodes, which may for example involve impulsively hooking up, with the need for alloaros to have an environment that’s affirming of such experiences?

~ How do hypersexual aros balance talk of management tactics (celibacy, reducing sexual encounters, etc.) with pushback that a less than welcoming attitude is bringing in sex negativity, or accusations that an ace is trying to take over the conversation?

Hypersexuality doesn’t always manifest as partnered sex, but it’s the most immediate example that I can think of that intersects with common alloaro talking points. Also, I must admit that I’m not 100% sure to what extent flirting and romantic impulsivity are tied to allo-allo expressions of hypersexuality (in which starting a new romantic relationship is tied up together with the sexual impulsivity), or romantic impulsivity is a possible manifestation of hypersexuality that’s not separated out in most resources.

(It’s only been through brief mentions in personal perspectives from others describing their (hypo)mania that I’ve seen some specificity about romantic impulsivity (focusing on flirting), but I’m not aware of any of them being on the aro spectrum. I’m also not sure how separate this may be for others who experience hypersexuality.)