#canto three spoilers

[melonisopod]

Spoilers for Canto VI part 2

Headpats and ear scritches could have saved him.

[baflegacy]

clawing at the walls right now. all those moments where delores was so protective of the other three all she was probably thinking about was what happened to her own children. imagine delores just wanting her group to be safe and away from harm and them being indignant about it because they feel like delores is just Being A Mom™️ when they dont Know the deeper reason why she’s hovering so much.

[teamzacian]

Contrary to popular belief I DO really like the 4-48 Dongbaek boss because she shows me how bad I am at the video game while simultaneously re-enacting my trip to the local garden in 2009

[wannabeyakuza]

Its only been a few days since the Don Qui reveal and limbus fans are already calling it a plot hole 😭😭

Adding that to the same pile as "They reduced Heathcliff to a interdimensional incel" and "Project moon hates Rodya" lol. The takes get worse by the day, there's genuine critic to be had in the spoilers reveal like how abrupt it was maybe but theres finding flaws and then there's just straight up not reading. This isn't to say I don't have gripes with some plot points at all either, as canto 2's biggest defender I can admit it suffers from horrid pacing because PJM was speedrunning the first three cantos and I don't like the implementation of concept incincerators in their entirety. I won't claim Limbus is the perfectly written story with 0 flaws but there's also the fact that I trust PJM's writing by this point.

Need some people around here to chill

[calitsnow]

Is Hong Lu the tea ?

I really like this title but of course I'm not trying to imply that Hong Lu is literally tea but I would like to talk about a potential foreshadowing or metaphor (?) concerning Hong Lu and which takes place in the story Liu association 5.

It is not so much a theory but more of an analysis which serves to point at elements which seem to reinforce ideas we have about Hong Lu and to better understand or even guess what his canto will look like.

Summary:

Hong Lu is = to the tea of this story

The objectification of Hong Lu

Hong Lu is like water

Spoilers further below

I/ Hong Lu is = to the tea of this story

It's time to talk about the frames that initiated this over-analysis.

Frames that appear to be a rather trivial conversation about tea leading to a humorous exchange between the three characters. But is that really all there is to take from this exchange? What if there was a foreshadowing or/and a metaphor hidden behind it?

It's true that the dialogues at the end of this story, where Hong Lu discusses the ability of his left eye to shine, is more memorable. I admit that it was also the part that caught my attention the most at first. However, upon rereading this passage, I find this exchange very interesting to analyze.

So here we go:

I've seen some people discussing that Hong Lu's age is around 30 years (I think), but I couldn't find the post, so I'll rather assume that Hong Lu is between 20 and 30 years old, as many people (including myself) think.

And this is where it all begins, because when I see Hong Lu talking about a tea "fermented for over 20 years in an ideal environment" and described as "nigh priceless," I can't help but wonder if there's a direct parallel to be made with his character.

We already know that Hong Lu has lived a sheltered life, presumably since forever, in an environment isolated from the rest of the world by and with his family, until finally he joined Limbus Company, which became (it seems) his first experience of the outside world.

If we follow the idea that, Hong Lu is over 20 years old and that him joining Limbus Company was his first interaction with the outside world, then we can see his arrival at the company as if he was taken out of the closet, like the tea that was brought out after more than 20 years of fermanting in this "ideal environment".

It remains to be seen whether Hong Lu escaped this "closet" or if he was brought out for a particular reason.

All this to say that Hong Lu's life until the game’s events could be seen as that of tea fermenting for years before serving its purpose.

We can therefore draw a parallel between the fermentation of the tea Hong Lu talks about and the type of life Hong Lu has led so far: Hong Lu is like the tea, and perhaps this image can give us or confirm what Hong Lu's life was like and how it is meant to be seen: that Hong Lu was fermented within this familial environment to produce an individual nigh priceless.

[SD: Now, if I use the term "fermentation/fermented" to talk about Hong Lu, I will, of course, be referring to his sheltered life with his family, but it will be easier to use the same term to talk about both the tea and Hong Lu and to support the parallel.]

What's also interesting is that the ones behind the fermentation of the tea and Hong Lu happen to be the same: Hong Lu's family.

This, I find, reinforces the legitimacy of this comparison.

We can also note that Hong Lu often talks about the tea he savored while still living with his family, so in a way, tea is a reminder of home for Hong Lu or more precisely, his past life.

I know it's not much, but it could still be an indication inviting us to make this comparison or to pay attention to details where tea is mentioned.

Returning to this idea of fermentation, whereas we know that the fermentation of this tea is supposed to give it a unique taste or/and a unique smell, it's hard to say what the goal of Hong Lu's "fermentation" was.

Perhaps to give him a unique "taste," which for Hong Lu would equate to a predefined personality and/or identity corresponding to his family's expectations.

It may also correspond to the fact that Hong Lu was kept isolated from the rest of the world because: rich people's mentality that doesn't want to coexist with those they consider inferior. Who knows…

But ... I can't help but think that there's another reason for this, but it's still too early to really know which one.

II/ The Objectification of Hong Lu

Small parenthesis: Before continuing with the analysis of the tea, I think it's interesting to dwell on this parallel between Hong Lu and a precious object that might make us understand that the question of objectification is a theme that will be relevant for his character.

After all, if in this story Hong Lu is also supposed to be paralleled with, or even "be" the tea, then his status is reduced to that of a precious object brought out for special occasions or to boast to guests.

Moreover, in the same story, Hong Lu lets slip a phrase that might make us think he is reduced to the status of a precious object in his family's eyes, more precisely a precious stone.

Indeed, his heterochromia wouldn't be due to nothing since, if we follow the original plot of *Dream of the Red Chamber* from which his character is drawn, the color and glow emanating from Hong Lu's eye should be due to him being born with a magic jade in his eye (similar to Jia Baoyu (the character Hong Lu is supposed to be inspired by) who was born with a small magic jade stone in his mouth)).

So, a magic jade stone would be in Hong Lu's left eye or something equivalent that might, at least, looks like a jade stone.

And this discussion around his eye (and in a way, his "jade") is probably the first clue showing us that Hong Lu is reduced to this small stone that is the (only) thing giving him value (for his family).

Returning to the idea of objectification, this seems to be supported by the phrase I mentioned at the beginning of this parenthesis:

"To them… I was a gem of a child"

Which might be more literal than one might think.

What's interesting is that this phrase has the appearance of a "false truth" and of something trivial that might be more nightmare fuel than one might have thought if taken under a certain angle.

This seems to be a recurring mechanism in Hong Lu's character (and ties in with the novel's theme) where the first appearance of something can hide the exact opposite. This trivial phrase suggesting that Hong Lu was pampered by his family because he was their little treasure might actually be a phrase hiding a much crueler and darker reality:

That Hong Lu was literally a precious stone to his family and that his value as a human being was reduced to his eye, which seems to be what his family reduced his being to, if we follow this theory.

And Hong Lu seems to be trying to belittle or/and hide his situation.

Hong Lu was summed up to the precious stone in his eye, and that's all he was to his family: a precious gem.

And I mean, I'm fascinated by this atmosphere of falseness that seems to surround Hong Lu: everything seems to be a mirage, an illusion (pun intended).

No, but seriously, I don't know if these are coincidences or over-interpretation, but most of Hong Lu's stories and dialogues (especially those mentioning his family) are steeped in this atmosphere of smoke and mirrors.

It's all the more fascinating that these moments seem to be a glimpse, a warning of what Hong Lu's canto will be: deceptions everywhere. I find it impressive that even in Hong Lu's mechanics / construction and writing, everything brings us back to this impression that we're facing an illusion.

This last paragraph might not have been very clear, but I'm having a bit of trouble describing my thoughts, hope you’d get a part of what I meant.

III/ Hong Lu is Water

So far, this served to show that it was possible to draw a parallel between what's said about the tea and Hong Lu.

It's time now to look at the last element that might give us more to understand how Hong Lu sees himself or the shape his identity crisis will take.

Indeed, we know that each sinner, through their canto, gets through a sort of identity crisis.

They reconnect in a certain way with their identity and face or evolve from a toxic way they had of dealing with their vision of themselves and their identity: Gregor existed only through his mother's expectations and his trauma related to the war and him being dehumanized, Rodya lived through her guilt feeling responsible for what happened to her neighborhood and the view Sonya had of her, Sinclair also lived with his guilt but also his anger towards Kromer, Ishmael lived only for revenge on her captain, etc...

Well, it is still debatable whether each sinner listed and from future cantos are/will be at the same stage of "personal development" and if they all managed/will manage to detach from their past to live for their future (cough, *cough* Gregor).

But I think that, through their Canto, the sinners learn to reconnect (at least a little) with their identity, their true self by "eliminating" what hindered this recognition so far: Herman, Kromer, Ahab...

And I think that's the essential: this reconnection with oneself.

Moreover, I'm not saying that each sinner has renounced their past, forgetting it in a drawer to live entirely differently without it impacting them, but that they have learned to live for a future rather than for and through their past.

A canto thus serves (in part) to help the concerned Sinner reconnect with their identity and their vision of their life/self.

But how would this apply to Hong Lu?

On one hand, I think first by breaking this image of an object that Hong Lu may possess in his family's eyes and perhaps in his own if he was raised with this vision of himself.

But also by tackling this illusory image of himself that Hong Lu displays.

After all, despite the rarity of this tea, the only remark Faust makes is:

"Despite the intense scent, the taste is essentially blank…" and she emphasizes this again by calling it "scented water."

I find that this image of tea being "scented water" is perfectly reflecting the idea that it's a deception, that what we are presented with is actually an illusion.

Indeed, this description could be an excellent example/metaphor of what an illusion is:

"A false interpretation of what one perceives. and Appearance devoid of reality."

The reality of this tea, which is its taste, is masked by an illusion, its scent, which comes across much more intensely to drown out this reality.

I believe this description underscores one of the themes that I think will be very important regarding Hong Lu: this often blurry distinction between what is real and what is an illusion and the idea that what appears true is false, and what appears false is true. This echoes one of the most important passages in the book from which Hong Lu's character is drawn:

"Truth becomes fiction when the fiction's true;

Real becomes not-real when the unreal's real."

We have seen many examples with Hong Lu where what he shows/says is either the opposite of what we thought, or the first impression was ultimately not the reality. For instance, when Hong Lu tells his story on the abandoned ship, we first think it’s a horror story before the twist reveals a truth radically opposed to what we thought.

The fact that Faust refers to water as a base is logical since we’re talking about tea, but it could also be an intelligent way to create a metaphor/foreshadowing with Hong Lu's behavior, which remains quite subdued and sometimes seems deceptive/false.

Moreover, this metaphor is made through an element that is more than perfect to describe someone who only reflects an image and is never their own reflection or lacks personality: water.

Transparent water can symbolize a lack of true substance or character. Similarly, a person whose personality is transparent can be perceived as lacking authenticity or sincerity. This transparency is masked by a scent to try to hide this emptiness and show the opposite of what it really is.

It’s a bit like Jack Vessalius in Pandora Hearts for those who know it.

Oswald describes Jack as water, as someone who only reflects an image, without true authenticity or a real identity of his own. In a sense, he is always playing a role.

It is also always interesting to remember that one of the most important characters in the novel "Dream of the Red Chamber," Lin Daiyu, who has a close relationship with the main character, Jia Baoyu, is a character associated with the element of water. She spends most of the novel being described as weeping or crying, and this is due to the “debt of tears” she promised to repay to the jade stone that helped her in her previous life when she was a flower. Lin Daiyu, being the reincarnation of the flower, repays her debt by crying in her new reincarnation. Hence her association with water.

But let’s get back to our main point.

Next, what’s interesting is the sentence Faust uses right after to criticize the tea she was served:

“I must wonder though, is there a good reason to pay such a stiff price for… for lack of a better word, scented water.”

We try to mask the transparency of this water with a strong scent, but in the end, it remains an illusion and doesn’t fix the real “problem” of this tea: it’s tasteless, without personality. Could Hong Lu then be just scented water that conveys an image filled with scent (that of a young aristocrat who has had an easy life and has been immersed in wealth all his life) to mask his lack of identity or self/ownness (is that a word)?

Hong Lu is merely scented water; he emits a strong and misleading scent that seems to suggest a certain vision he is or/and others have of him, but in the end, he remains just water to which a scent has been added. Perhaps this water couldn’t develop its own taste because it has been fermenting for over 20 years in an ideal environment, imposing on it a scent that has defined its entire identity.

This could also be seen as a metaphor that ties back to the idea of smoke and mirrors and that this image of a dandy that comes from Hong Lu is just an illusion whose scent is stronger and masks his real "taste".

And it also could be a way to reinforce this idea that Hong Lu try to hide or belittle the/his reality with a stronger "scent", masking the reality with something more noticeable even if it's just an illusion.

Hong Lu should then, during his Canto, learn to renounce the bases that has given him a bit of scent until now, what allowed him to be more than just water, to have an identity, to find a new one/ his true self that would be much more authentic and real.

[gachabastard]

Limbus Company Sinners as Fallen London Companions

Smashing my two hyperfixations together like dolls and making them kiss. What I'm seeking (lol) to do here is not to conflate the Sinners to existing Companions, but rather create Companions based off of them instead. If you know both things then this won't take any explaining.

For people who know Limbus Company but not Fallen London: Fallen London is a browser game made by Failbetter Studios. It is an alternate history of an 1800s London that has sunk deep below the earth into a subterranean cavern known as the Neath and is now overseen by the mysterious Masters of the Bazaar. You begin the game as a Surface-dweller who has recently descended into the Neath for certain reasons, which you are able to decide for yourself and act upon as you progress through the game. Companions are "equipment" of sorts that you can equip to increase (or lower) your character's stats. A full write-up of FL's mechanics could be another three separate posts on its own, so I recommend the wiki's Beginner's Guide and other resources therein to understand the mechanics I'll detail here. If you enjoy the writing in LCB you will most likely also love FL's writing. Please play it, it is awesome. (And lmk if you do, I'll add you as a friend and definitely not stab you in the back)

For people who know Fallen London but not Limbus Company: Limbus Company is a mobile game made by Project Moon. It is the third in a series of games, preceded by Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina, which are both available for purchase on Steam, though Limbus Company can be played independently of these if you want; the player avatar is an amnesiac so things are generally explained as needed (though Lobcorp and LoR are also very good and I recommend them, but you do have to buy those, so). The game centers around a department of the titular Limbus Company, the Limbus Company Bus Team (often shortened to LCB), the twelve individuals referred to as Sinners who make up the team, and their amnesiac Manager named Dante as they brave the ruins of the old branches of Lobotomy Corporation to retrieve strange objects known as Golden Boughs. All of the major characters in LCB are based off of classic literature (for example, Dante is based off of Dante's Inferno). If you like FL's writing you may enjoy LCB, but it is a gacha game which turns a lot of people off. For character info you can visit the Fandom wiki (yeah I know, it's a Fandom wiki), and if you want to read the story so far without playing the game you can check out this github page which contains all of the story text.

And if you don't know either...I don't know why you're reading this, but I hope my explanations and provided resources are enough to help you understand it regardless.

Okay, wall of text out of the way, let's get into the actual point of the post. This isn't meant to be balanced or anything this is just for fun because I'm diseased. Also LIMBUS SPOILERS THRU CANTO VI sorry.

Starting off with Sinner #1, Yi Sang:

Mirror-Marred Litterateur In the Mirror's glass, he observed endless possibilities. One such possibility observed him back. Watchful +4, Glasswork +2, Bizarre +1

Reasoning: Honestly? I thought about Sang Yi chilling in Parabola and that colored my whole concept here. But for real the whole Mirror thing is too perfect. Yi Sang defines Glasswork.

Sinner #2, Faust

Hell-Touched Engineer She hasn't the eyes of a devil, but builds infernal machinery previously unseen outside of Hell. Claims to know all outcomes, but shares precious little. Dreaded +2, Artisan of the Red Science +2, Decreases Nightmare build up

Reasoning: Something something Faust something something Mephistopheles something something her base EGO heals SP.

Sinner #3, Don Quixote

Dreaming Knight The only weapon stronger than a dream is delusion. Dangerous +5, Mithridacy +2, Increases Scandal build up

Reasoning: DQ is so skilled in Mithridacy she's got herself convinced of untruths, man. She's also allowed little a Scandal. As a treat.

Sinner #4, Ryoshu

Bohemian Blademaster Her masterwork blade is her brush; her enemies, her canvas. Legend has it that even the Boatman respects her work. Dangerous +4, Dreaded +2, Monstrous Anatomy +1

Reasoning: I feel like this one's pretty self-explanatory. I added a point of MA since I feel like she'd want to be a bit knowledgeable in monster anatomy for Art Reasons

Sinner #5, Meursault

Chained Stranger "The Neath is a prison," he says matter-of-factly, "And I am here because I am meant to be." Despite this, one could swear they saw the sun reflecting off his eyes. Persuasive +2, Respectable +3, Reduces Scandal build up

Reasoning: Hehe did you see what I did there. I referenced the thing. Anyway aside from being pretty blunt, he's probably the best candidate out of the whole group for Respectable.

Sinner #6, Hong Lu

Bright-Eyed Debonair New to the Neath, from an affluent Surface family. The Neath's many delights confuse and excite him. Persuasive +2, Shadowy +1, Kataleptic Toxicology +1

Reasoning: I think Hong Lu being new to the Neath fits with him being sheltered in canon. Also +1 KA cuz you know that boy is hittin that Honey. The Honey-Dens of Veilgarden already know him by name.

Sinner #7, Heathcliff

Bereaved Ruffian He knows the backstreets of London like the scars on his hands. He remembers that which the world does not, and waits. Dangerous +8, Shadowy -3, Chthonosophy +1

Reasoning: Oops Canto VI colored the fuck out of this one oops oops oops. Happy Firmament Day btw have some Chthonosophy. :)

Sinner #8, Ishmael

Zeefaring Pathfinder She's hunted the most feared creatures known to the Zee, losing her way to chart a path for her mad captain. Her compass will see that she never loses sight of her path again. Zeefaring +2, Monstrous Anatomy +3, Increases Nightmares build up

Reasoning: Ishy-Fishy you were made to embody Zeefaring and MA.

Sinner #9, Rodion

Lacre-Drowned Cardshark Born in a run-down corner of London where the Lacre falls thickest at Sacksmas, she knows a thing or two about cards. She wouldn't mind teaching you...for a price. Persuasive +4, Watchful +6

Reasoning: Heart's Desire vibes. That's it.

Sinner #10, Dante

Timepiece Manager An infernal timepiece ticks away where a head should be. They have no memories of their own, but they can never forget again. Chthonosophy +2, Steward of the Discordance +1, Dangerous -5, Reduces Wounds build up

Reasoning: Congratulations Dante on being the only bitch to not have the Discordance because the Discordance isn't real. Ummm I went off vibes here but tbh I think Dante should decrease your Dangerous by way more actually. Hell, let's make then decrease Dreaded too. Let's make them a Weasel of Woe.

Sinner #11, Sinclair

Unrealized Prodigy Young and anxious, jumping at every shadow. His potential is very promising. Dangerous +6, Dreaded +1, Increases Wounds build up

Reasoning: Sinclair may be baby. But he is Scary Baby.

Sinner #12, Outis

Commanding Oneironaut She's led the forces of Parabola to victory more times than you could count. Don't ask her any questions. Dangerous +8, A Player of Chess +2, Glasswork +1

Reasoning: Everybody shut the fuck up Parabolan War General Outis is everything to me, you hear me. EVERYTHING. She favors the Chessboard, obviously, with that +2 to APoC.

Sinner #13, Gregor

Metamorphic Veteran A large insectoid pincer sits where a right arm should be. He'll talk about pretty much anything but the details around that. Seriously, be careful around that thing. Dangerous +5, Shapeling Arts +3, Bizarre +2

Reasoning: You had to know Gregor would be the only bitch to get Shapeling Arts. Look me in the eyes and tell me he wouldn't. I wanted to give him Persuasive due to his amicability but also he actually. Sucks at being persuasive like canonically, so. Dangerous it is.

BONUS! Vergilius

The Red Gaze The most feared Fixer in the Neath. Whatever could you have done to strike up an alliance with him? Watchful +30, Shadowy +30, Dangerous +30, Persuasive +30, Greatly reduces Nightmare build up

Reasoning: He's the Red Goat I ain't gotta explain shit.

anyway hope you enjoyed even though you definitely didn't. i have a headache now so i'm gonna go consume painkillers and caffeine and go run mirror dungeons in lcb for that limbus battle pass.

[strobbylemonade]

what the fuck was up with that huh???? warp express spoilers yada yada

i literally screamed when the reveal happened because OHHH MY GOOOOOOOODDDDDDDD WHAT THE HELL i wish i wish i WISH WE GOT VOICE ACTING FOR IT!!! ARHGHHHH.

"in all absorbing darkness, voice is our only light" what a cool metaphor. how fascinating that dante has no voice... but they have light...

i feel like not enough people are covering the fact that the blast was strong enough to blow faust to pieces. also dante very rarely comments on the pain of bringing people back now... i wonder if they're getting desensitised to pain? or blocking it out of their memories?

do you think dante had to do up her laces. like covered in blood and gore and pieces of faust and so so tired from reviving the sinners, they had to take just two minutes alone to do up don quixote’s laces

DON QUIXOTE'S CANTO IS 2 MONTHS AWAY I CANT DO THIS MAN I CANT WAIT THAT LONG

i talked about this with my friend but it's entirely possible that vergilius was hired almost soley to deal with don quixote, because his EGO allows him to become one with pools of blood and she's made to forever spill blood. i really hope we get to see their dynamic expanded upon

do you think its possible that she was so fast to suggest the idea of the sinners staying aboard the train for a thousand years because she'd lived for that long before.

i wonder if she'll sing her Pass On in her regular Don Quixote voice or her more... natural? bloodfiend voice.

its sort of strange to know that faust and vergilius are in the same boat as dante is (dante has to listen to vergilius, who has to listen to faust, who has to listen to the Gesellschaft). since the three of them are deemed as sort of a 'higher management' collectively, and dante is being let in on more secrets, i wonder if some sinners will start distrusting them because of how secretive they have to become?

"do you suppose i shall see her again?" AHHHH THAT MOMENT WAS SO CUTE WAAHHHHH. i think its really interesting that yi sang and ishmael were the ones to comfort her, as they're the two sinners with the most "resolved" cantos. do you think yi sang saw some of himself in her. in the way he was in love with the unknown and discovery and she falls in love with it too.

rodya has always been super flirty with faust. i hope she flirts back (i wanted to have another gamble) after this and everyone gets their balls knocked out of the park

do you think faust felt safe. with the sinners. and no fausts watching her. i love faust. i will die for her.

great intervallo. holy shit. auguuuguhhhghhghhhhhhhhhhhhh

[eresia-catara]

What blows my mind is that Dante may have casually admitted to having homosexual desires in Canto 16 of the Inferno, where he sees sodomites and wishes to literally throw himself into the flames to join them, but he fights the urge and says, "And then I spoke: ‘Repulsion, no, but grief for your conditions spread throughout my heart (and years will pass before it fades away)...'” Like, Bro???????????? Am I reading this correctly?

What's even crazier is that he says Virgil would have let him. Fucking Virgil. Like whadhdtahwhat?? Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I can't remember a single canto in which Virgil would approve of Dante putting himself in physical danger. That is so crazy to me. 

Thinking about this in terms of Virgil = Guido and my brain explodes. 

It's true!

Dante says that he sees three people rushing towards him ("like champions do, naked and oiled, studying their grip before they come to blows and thrusts between them" .ahem.) and Virgil says that if it weren't for the fire it would actually be more becoming if it were Dante rushing towards them rather than the contrary. And a few lines later Dante says that if he weren't terrorized he would throw himself amongst them and hug them, and Virgil would've allowed it.

There are two things that strike me. The first is that a central theme with sodomites is dignity. Contrary to literary tradition of the time where the punishment of sodomites was often described in quite brutal terms and involved the torture of genitals, Dante is much more delicate and his focus is not on the perversion of their lust but on the fact that those corrupted are prestigious people. With Brunetto Latini Dante insists on his intellectual dignity, and only with the three sodomites of canto XVI their nakedness is highlighted, but the comparison says everything about how we need to interpret it: they look like wrestlers, like champions. There is no belittlement in this image but clelebration (and Brunetto was compared to a champion too). In a way I would compare them to Farinata degli Uberti (canto X) in the way they deserve respect, but with the difference that with Farinata we still see the flaws of his character, his pride and his attachement to his lost life, while the three sodomites do not talk about themselves but are rather interested in the state of Florence's customs — are florentines still courteous and valorous? (spoiler no)— Again, what seems to be relvant to Dante is not the sin per se but how frequent it is amongst respectful people. The subtext is saying: sodomy does not make a person a vile subhuman being — contrary to, for example, robbers who become one with snakes and where Vanni Fucci, one of them, openly insults God. — This is all a very unusual and original approach.

Then we have, as you said, sympathy. Dante not only respects them, but feels like he's part of them. Just like in Limbo, where he meets famous poets and he joins them as they form a circle and discuss poetry because Dante is a poet himself, here the three form a circle around Dante ("fénno una rota di sé tutti e trei", "they wheeled round all three", l.21) and he wishes to hug them and they speak of virtues thus demonstrating they are not subhuman because....Dante is one of them and he too is not subhuman but is deserving of respect?

All of this, of course, from the earthly, skewed perspective of Dante-character who's too weak to condemn people who share his same sins. God very much punishes them not only because we are in Hell but because there might be, as we have said, the full reversal of Guido's poem.

To sum up, I am a sodomite-Dante truther.

[lunareiitic]

CANTO 4 SPOILERS BE WARNED

I think it's really interesting (and clever) that we're a third of the way through Limbus' plot (theoretically. 12/4 = 3 after all) and we've split the focus characters in half based on who is actually growing because of their Canto and who isn't, while also showing multiple narrative ways to show that progression (or lack thereof).

Gregor and Rodya have already done their growing. Gregor's a war veteran whose traumatic past should be long behind him, and his character didn't shift after his Canto. His refusal with regards to the whole Yuri thing wasn't a shocking twist, it was the culmination of years of rejecting the life that his mother made for him.

Rodya rejects the idea that she has to develop as a character entirely. Canto 2 is mostly a celebration of Rodya- she makes her own luck and doesn't require these things like "character growth" and "dynamics". She was a one woman wrecking crew then and she's one now, plans and friends be damned. It's why she's able to reject Sonya's olive branch: he's predicating his entire plan on the idea that Rodya would have learned from the Tax Collector Incident. But she didn't, and she knows that.

Sinclair's Canto 3 marks the first Canto where we're actually examining the failings of a member of the team. Sinclair's immaturity, fawn response and unwillingness to take responsibility did directly lead to all of the bad shit that happened to him. Even if Kromer would have done it anyways, Canto 3 takes Sinclair to task for what he did, but in the end, he can't follow through. It's beautiful and tragic that he needs Demian to bail him out of what should have been his cathartic moment of triumph. Sinclair's growing is actively still happening. Canto 3 is only the beginning.

Which brings us to the most recent Canto and Yi Sang. Yi Sang in hindsight is the perfect character to follow up Canto 3 with because Yi Sang is essentially Sinclair if Demian wasn't around. Yi Sang's narrative is about apathy and passive suicidality- he doesn't care what happens to him because life has lost all meaning to him. Sinclair still has some fight in him, all Yi Sang has is ashes. Or so he thinks. Dongrang and Dongbaek are characters who will never move on from their past, despite what both of them think. Yi Sang, through mirroring them, ends up with the most radical character development we've seen so far: true catharsis. Unlike our three previous characters, Yi Sang's Canto manages to get down to the core of his issues and he's able to understand what he must do to get better and does. He conquers Dongbaek (embodiment of rage) and Dongrang (embodiment of despair) and ascends to a place of healing away from them. This is a very conventional, classic character arc structure seen in fiction since the dawn of time, it's classic because it works. But it feels so refreshing and new here in Limbus Company because we waded through three quagmires of difficult regrets, abuses, and traumas that refuse to be handled so easily. Given that our remaining characters are based on murderers (Hell Screen, The Stranger), self-saboteurs (The Odyssey, Moby Dick, Don Quixote, Faust), and the legacy of racism (Wuthering Heights), I'm betting that Hong Lu's might be our brightest spot moving forward. (But who knows. They could give us another goofy Canto out of nowhere like they did in Canto 2. Limbus Company contains multitudes.)

[copperbadge]

Hi! If one were to be interested in reading the shivadhverse books, is there a strong chronology between them, or can they be read in whatever order?

Oh, good question, I should put a reading-order guide up on the site. They are listed in chronological order on the sales page, but that's a lot of reading to figure it out.

So -- in theory you can pick up any of the first four and read them first and pretty much be okay, but definitely there are spoilers in the later books for stuff in the earlier, and you might not have an easy time tracking all the characters. They do have a distinct chronology, and particularly after the first three books it gets more difficult to read out of order.

The chronological order is:

Fete For A King -- winter through spring 2021

Infinite Jes -- spring and summer 2021

The Lady And The Tiger -- spring 2022

Those three are also collected into a single volume, "The Shivadh Romances Volume 1" in reading order, if you want to pick up all three and not worry about which comes first. After that:

The Twelve Points of Caleb Canto -- prologue takes place in autumn 2021, but the action takes place in spring 2022

Dinner at The Palace (short stories taking place from before the books up to the end of Twelve Points)

The Royals And The Ramblers (not yet published) -- summer 2022 through spring 2023

The good news is, the earliest books are also the shortest, thus the cheapest, so if you're buying the books you're not investing in a massive tome. And if you find you don't like Fete -- well, I'd give Infinite Jes a shot, but if you don't like Fete or Infinite Jes, the rest are in the same vein, so you haven't read like 500 pages of fiction only to decide you don't want to read the rest :D

[best-nun-tournament]

Round 2, Match 15

Catherine and Hindley Earnshaw (Limbus Company) vs John Wilkes and Edwin Booth (US history)

Propaganda under break. Limbus Company Canto VI spoilers.

Catherine and Hindley Earnshaw

Catherine died, and in her will left her brother the gift of forcing him to go to rehab. she also made sure the method of transportation she provided was Evil Train that traps you for 1000 years

John Wilkes and Edwin Booth

They were actors which is fine. Except. Edwin was better and John was bitter. And the John assassinated the President while delivering a line well associated with Edwin's Brutus. Edwin (already on the outs with John) disowned his brother after that.

Poll Runner's Note: Also their brother Junius Brutus Booth Jr was arrested because of John Wilkes Booth shooting the president. And the three of them had just done Julius Caesar in 1864 (John Wilkes was Mark Antony and Junius was Crassus), the year before the assassination.

One of Junius' other famous roles was as King John, also in this tournament!

[jovenshires]

hi katie jovenshires im a big fan. if ur ok with sharing, what ships are in the botb au and what are the vibes for each 👀

thank you so much!! <3<3<3

hmm i've been thinking about this and i think i'm only deadset on spommy, ianthony, kolivia, and amangela as far as like. my canon goes. not sure what if any other ships im gonna include... ive gone back and forth with shaymien and shaynse too but not sure!!

but, i will say, for the most part the edits are mostly left up to interpretation so you can all decide whatever ships you want really!! (or if you don't want any ships at all that's cool too <3) like i've said to me the botbau is a little collaborative barbie world that we can all make whatever we want out of. like i told someone the other day - if you wanna write a fic or make an edit or something for this and it doesn't exactly line up with what i might write or think ab the au... PLEASE go for it. it is out there, public domain now, do with it what you will. and i will love and eat it up no matter what!!

as for the vibes in MY head, i will throw them under the cut so this post doesn't get too long KFNLKNKFNF

spommy: i've covered this a little before here so if you want the full version check that out but BASICALLY spommy is kind of rivals-to-friends-to-lovers except tommy has an Extremely one-sided beef and spencer just thinks he's cool and wants to be buds. eventually spencer wins him over and then... uh oh! love! once again skimmin some details that, if i ever Write A Fic for it, will be spoilers. but that’s the idea you know

ianthony: taking this directly from my dms to lilac but basically. ianthony botbau my beloveds....... to relearn how to co-pilot something with someone that should come so second-hand to you but you're both different people now but your feelings carry through anyway for who they were and are and will be........ yeah theyre everything to me. in a way it's a mirror to life/what actually happened to them with smosh (art imitates life) but the divorce era was even MORE famous because they're like a household name so it was a lot more pressure. idk yet if they were together beforehand and then broke up and now they're getting BACK together or if they had unresolved feelings they never dealt with and now they're struggling to reconcile them with their renewed friendship AND reunited band/the fame that comes from that... but either way they are Messy. im obsessed.

kolivia: kolivia in this au fascinates me because in my head keith is kind of known for being a player and fucking around but i think he stopped that Ages ago because. these two are basically dating. like they don't put a label on it and it's not public and i don't even know if THEY know how in love they are. but they live together. they sleep together "just to blow off steam" (come on now). they don't date other people. everyone can see it but them type beat. olivia's like "he's not my boyfriend" and then picks up the phone and is like "hi baby do you want chinese for dinner" NDLFKNANKSFLN like they are exclusive and they have deep feelings for each other but they are both so deeply in denial that they swear they're not dating. they have realistically been in a relationship for like five years.

amangela: RIVALS TO LOVERS AGAINNNN i have talked about this one a Lot with baflegacy bc like. they are my roman empire. at least these two have met on multiple occasions and actually fought with each other - they keep meeting at gigs/in bars and bickering. angela "clearly abba is the best band ever" giarratana and amanda "WHAT about fleetwood mac you DUMB ASS" lehan-canto. like they meet a bunch and EVERY time they end up bickering. meanwhile angela keeps seeing thirst traps of amanda on tiktok and being like "why are all the lesbians obsessed with her she SUCKS" and chanse and arasha, who have heard this three million times, are like "yeah okay buddy whatever helps you sleep at night." meanwhile amanda is living her bliss <3 and then they realize they're both in battle of the bands and uh oh! things come to a head!

[cat-of-starlight]

Ok-

In the wake of the new Limbus Brainrot because Canto 4 ended, I've been seeing a certain... Dante related theory... making the rounds again and I wanted to post my thoughts about it.

Putting it under the cut for length reasons- No specific spoilers?, I just don't wanna blast people with the text wall lmao

I gotta say, I really hate the Dante = Ayin theory. Desperately.

Not any hate to the people theorizing- not like that, I just already have a deep hatred of [x person is actually y person]/Reincarnation/etc. theories.

Why, you may ask? Well, in the case of this theory specifically, I have three main reasons.

1 - The vibes of the two characters themselves

Important note, I actually like both characters. I know some people have A Lot to say about Ayin, and honestly so do I (Probably different things but yea), but I generally don't mind him as much as some other people seem to.

I also love Dante.

And Specifically, I'll say- I like them both for Incredibly Different Reasons. Different enough reasons that I feel that mixing the two would ruin them both. I mean sure, Dante CLEARLY has something going on in the memories they can't yet remember, but honestly? Ayin already had his arc. HAD his chance in the spotlight- a whole game of it. I wouldn't mind a cameo, or reason for him to be important in some way, but I'd be crushed if all the reasons I've come to love Dante were smothered by "oops all Ayin"

I feel like it would make it almost... Pointless? "Oh yea this character may have had their whole character arc, but surprise! They aren't REALLY their own person and are instead this dude who already had his character arc!"

2 - They/Them Dante Supremacy™

Now, considering that the meme They/Them Dante post that I made blew up and is now my most popular post on my blog, I think its safe to say where I stand on the Dante's Pronouns part of everything-

I think it would be kind of... dismissive of that to make "Oh yea they were they/them to hide their identity" Because uhhh. Their identity is already hidden. We can't see their face. Literally anyone could have their head taken, a clock replaced, and that outfit slapped on and it generally wouldn't matter-

I feel like it kind of would send the message of "They can only count as they/them because their everything is hidden and we can't tell anyway" which??? No??? Even once Dante's actual head gets revealed, if people start switching calling them to whatever gender they look the most like and the game still uses they/them I'm Going To Bite People.

3 - ??

The least plot relevant, and the most just vibe based is- I just kinda feel like this type of reveal in writing often kinda feels like a cop out? I mean, I'm sure there's probably a well done version of one of these, but I sure as hell haven't found it yet-

I mean, in a BIG city with TONS of characters, there is SO MUCH plot that a character can have, without needing to jump back to a character that they already have. Sure- Project Moon Protags often have a Big Reveal, and its often Shocking- but does it really need to be a rehashed reveal from the first game? "boo he's old news get new material" ya know?

--

Anyway yea. I don't like the theory- Never have from the first time I saw a post about it.

If you like it, feel free to keep on with it- I don't mean this to say "If you theorize this, you suck" or anything, I just keep seeing it, and felt the desire to put my own two cents in~

But yea, keep on with it if you like it? Maybe tag it something specific and I'll just block the tag lmao

[melliae]

Hermann's goal and a little bit about Dante's future (Spoilers for Canto VI)

“Their ultimate goal must be to go even further beyond that ‘dough’; they seek to reach the very origin… the primordial human. This is but a part of that process, merely an experiment along the way.” - Faust, Chapter 37: Lightning Rod, Canto VI

This quote is kind of crazy, don’t you think? How does the (seemingly) destruction of all Mirror Worlds relate to the manifest/summon the archetypal form of humanity? Well, I can’t answer that, but I can predict how it’s going to end up becoming one of the worst disasters in the history of the City (beyond its foundation, obviously).

Now, first and foremost, we must understand what does Faust and Aseah mean by “primordial human”, which is quite easy to answer: Adam Kadmon, commonly understood as the first emanation of the unknowable Godhead, the Ein Sof, according to the Kabbalah, the esoteric branch of judaism.

In essence, the Kabbalah postulates the abrahamic god, YHWH, is an inscrutable “existence” (for a lack of better word) of pure potentiality, beyond all possible realities or actualities. Omniscient, omnipresent, transcendent, and without limits (ie. “Ein Sof”). But that reason is what ultimately led to Creation: to allow that unknowable, alien Godhead to know and define itself.

Now, how did it do that? Through contracting and limiting its essence, creating an “empty pocket” of space into which to pour its infinite essence or light in the form of the “Etz Haim” or “Tree of Life”, one of the most common symbols of the (western) esoteric tradition, and which many of yours will recognize thanks to Lobotomy Corporation.

Beginning with Kether, which can be understood as the purest manifestation of the Godhead’s will and (positive) existence, and ending with Malkuth, the sphere of the physical world and senses, the Tree of Life—or Light, if we go according to LobCorp—is a map of the condensed existence of the universe and god… and humanity, for the good book says:

"Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. [...]’”

The Tree is that image that God imprinted onto not only creation, but all of humanity: they all share the same essential attributes of the Ein Sof, but in a manifested way instead of being just potentials. And because they both share the same underlying primal form, both the universe and humanity are one and the same—the common identity between macrocosm and microcosm.

“Not only do things appear personified as human beings, but the macrocosm personifies itself as a man too. ‘The whole of nature converges in man as in a centre, and one participates in the other, and man has not unjustly concluded that the material of the philosophical stone may be found everywhere.’”- Jung, Alchemical Studies

Why do I cite Jung of all people? Simple: because LobCorp basically identified the Ein Sof with the collective unconscious or, as the games call it, the Well of Humanity. Not only the Well is the source of all humanity’s psychological attributes, but also of the light itself, that which allows the mind to be manifested.

This relation isn’t mentioned by Jung per se (as far as I’m aware), but he did mention the relationship between Adam Kadmon and the archetype of the Self, the archetype of psychic wholeness that joins all parts of the psyche, both individual and collective.

“In the Cabalistic view Adam Kadmon is not merely the universal soul or, psychologically, the ‘self,’ but is himself the process of transformation, its division into three or four parts (trimeria or tetrameria).” - Mysterium Coniunctionis

The “process of transformation” mentioned is basically the process of individuation, by which an individual becomes conscious of itself and thus awakens to the presence of the Self, which encompasses and transcends the conscious Ego—the typical sense of individuality—in the same way Adam Kadmon does it for the individual soul.

At any rate, it’s not that difficult to understand how Project Moon came to the conclusion of “collective unconscious = Ein Sof” and “the Self = Adam Kamon.”

However, it’s important to keep in mind that the Self, as the primordial shape of psychic totality, also includes in itself the collective unconscious, the collective memory of everything that has transpired on Earth, from the beginning of life to this very moment, which implies that Adam Kadmon isn’t only an emanation of the Godhead, but its final realization, where humanity has become one with the world at large. This means that Adam, or the Self, is the sum of all the experiences of all living beings, of all their potentials realized…

The entire conundrum of Erlking and Every Catherine also works as a possible foreshadowing of how Hermann and co. will manifest Adam Kadmon: not through perfected “dough” only, but through the application of an absurd number of Identities on it—every Identity of every human that has existed. That’s the kind of number needed for the result to be aptly called the “collective soul of humanity”... in theory.

We know by “Leviathan” that people like Jumsoon, a Maestro of the Ring, can survive a stupidly large number of Identities, with every dot of his distorted form apparently being a representation of one. I don’t doubt that a “dough” of the highest quality possible could be able to handle the possibilities of all humanity. Though at the end, we really don’t know the specific method.

Continuing with the theory anyways, let’s say that N corp. is able to manifest Adam Kadmon, the archetype of humanity… the totality of the collective unconscious from which all Abnormalities stem from. Do you think that its manifestation is not going to end up as the rest of all Abnormalities, twisted and corrupted by the City’s and Outskirts’ traumas? Their pain and suffering?

“The archetype of the self has, functionally, the significance of a ruler of the inner world, i.e., of the collective unconscious. The self, as a symbol of wholeness, is a coincidentia oppositorum, and therefore contains light and darkness simultaneously.” - Jung, Symbols of Transformation.

The Self contains and is everything that humans are and have done from time immemorial, every sin and monstrosity, every virtue and great deed. There’s nothing higher than it, nor nothing lower than it. Yet, because the City still remains in a unconsciously primitive state as “Distortion Detective” stated, there’s no hope for the Self to manifest wholly when the psyche of every human has been so twisted and hurted. You can see that with the Erlking Heathcliff summoned through the “dough”, the "storm" that tore asunder Wuthering Heights, the black wolf or king.

“The ‘black sulphur’ is a pejorative name for the active, masculine substance of Mercurius and points to its dark, saturnine nature, which is evil. This is the wicked Moorish king of the Chymical Wedding, who makes the king’s daughter his concubine (meretrix), the ‘Ethiopian’ of other treatises, analogous to the ’Egyptian’ in the ‘Passio Perpetuae,’ who from the Christian point of view is the devil.” - Mysterium Coniunctionis.

Thus, the devil incarnate—Heathcliff’s Shadow.

“I, whose existence itself has become a sin… have returned to put an end to us all.” - Elrking Heathcliff, Chapter 38: The Wild Hunt, Canto VI.

“Look at Heathcliff the Erlking. Heathcliff the devil.” - Nelly, Chapter 45: Life, Stolen, Canto VI.

I’m not going to enter into (what I think is) the alchemical symbolism of Canto VI, so I’m just going to say that the dough was able to manifest the “Shadow” of one of the Sinners for a reason. Something similar happens with Catherine and Every Catherine, where the later manifests not as a normal human, but as a ghost, one of the many symbols for unconscious potencies (see “Seven Sermons to the Dead”), and one of the side effects of Wuthering Heights having being built over the “deepest river” that without doubt is related to the Well.

All in all, Canto VI shows the experiments of N corp. don’t tend to end with the mental evolution of the involved parties, but with their regression to inhuman, unconscious entities or monsters. I don’t doubt Adam Kadmon will follow that tragic future. But it’s not going to end as “easily” as Canto VI. Not at all. After all, what’s the Shadow of Adam, the Self, but the Devil… the Leviathan?

“God speaks thus in order to parade his power and omnipotence forcibly before Job’s eyes. God is as Behemoth and Leviathan: the fruitfulness and abundance of Nature, the ungovernable wildness and licentiousness of Nature, the overwhelming danger of unchained power. What was it that destroyed Job’s earthly paradise? The unchained power of Nature. God, so the poet gives us to understand, has simply shown his other side for once, the side we call the Devil, and let loose all the terrors of Nature upon the unfortunate Job.” - Symbols of Transformation.

Leviathan, as the Devil or Satan, is nothing but the dark side of humanity and the Self, its Shadow. The “crooked serpent” is the antichrist himself, the great destroyer and bringer of the end of times, sinking everything into the waters of unconsciousness (like certain someone…). But at the same time, it’s the absolute, undivided power of the government; a living tyrant to which is given absolute power over and by the people. Only God, in all its horrifying and numinous majesty, can put it down.

If we take N corp.’s fascist undertones, then it isn’t surprising that Hermann and her group are trying to summon what’s basically the archetypal tyrant. But pitifully, the other antichrist-like characters have brought anything but order to the City…

“The fourth function has its seat in the unconscious. In mythology the unconscious is portrayed as a great animal, for instance Leviathan, or as a whale, wolf, or dragon. We know from the myth of the sun-hero that it is so hot in the belly of the whale that his hair falls out.” - Mysterium Coniunctionis.

Luckily, or unluckily, Dante will without doubt have a role in both manifesting and stopping the Leviathan. After all, the Purgatory can only begin after the poet goes into the furthest, coldest depths of hell, where the frozen tyrant lies.

“…Dante, you may not remember it at the moment, but at one point you used to be something of a bigwig… so to speak.” - Vergilius, Chapter 7: Siegfried, Canto III.

Dante said in the Divine Comedy that the pride terrace of the Purgatory was reserved for him, and Satan first sinned out of pride…

Note: Kind of crazy that RR4 hints this thanks to the parallels between The King in Binds and Dante... I think I'm going crazy.

[iantimony]

a tuesday

listening: bionicle nostalgia playlist. ur welcome.

reading: mostly help forums for my dogshit software.

watching: olympics!! specifically fencing and a smattering of gymnastics. i think we all knew that lee keifer would win women's foil but it was so satisfying to watch happen. she really is a fucking steamroller, have not had one like her before and probably won't again for a very long time. her whole situation is insane - father was duke fencing captain and now a medical doctor, and now all three of his kids including lee are ALSO that and international fencers which is. insane. - and i am in awe of her etc. i did bring my fencing gear back to my apartment with me and i'm looking forward to starting that again, it's been like. at least five years since i last did anything with fencing and i miss it.

the other night i watched shaolin soccer with my boyfriend and roommate's bf. insane fucking film. they had both seen it already (my boyfriend saw it at least 20 years ago as a young kid, in the original canto/mandarin (which he does not speak) with no subtitles which i'm sure was a fucking experience) and . film of all fucking time, i think. insane plot and premise, makes absolutely no sense, overall story has confusing holes, but i'll be damned if i didn't have a great time watching it.

saw new house of the dragon on sun. i cannot bring myself to care about ulf. blacksmith guy is a little better but clearly still not great considering i cant remember his name. some of the writing this season has me like. squints. which beloved mutual pngjpeg reminded me that this one was written during the writers strike which does explain a lot i think. i'm still enjoying it, i really loved alicent's decision to just fuck off to the woods for a bit. she's so real for that. ophelia-coded lake float and all (which is ironic, because, fire and blood spoilers, i'm pretty sure alicent is one of the few people to make it out of this alive).

finally, roommate's bf has been putting on modern family every night in the living room so therefore we have also been watching modern family. brainrotting type of content (derogatory)

playing: soooo much pokemon go. it has become a vital part of my workout routine. i catch pokemon in between weight sets and also when im doing cardio LOL

making: made some coaster blanks in pottery for Secret Gifts ... hopefully they are done in time, gonna really grind them the next week or two!

eating: because i am back in my home base: many many good things. pictures courtesy of my boyfriend. we really said Protein Over Rice. in order:

harissa chicken thighs with shallots, this time with real harissa instead of gochujang - that shit is SPICY goddamn. it's really good though. my roommate's bf has an immersion blender and is in his Homemade Mayo era and i used some of that to cut the spice on my portion and my god that was so fucking good. this was followed by chicken and egg bowl (leftover chicken thighs with scrambled egg) and gyudon.

misc: on one hand i'm really glad to be back in my place! on the other i'm losing my mind a little bit because my roommate's boyfriend has moved in and i don't move out til aug 8 so i'm going a little insane with how disorganized my everything is right now. like i can't unpack anything because it makes no sense to so im just living out of my big ass suitcase. it's fine i'll be fine but like aaaa. also he re-organized all the cabinets and pantry so i don't know where anything fucking is any more !!! agony. i can't wait to have my own space for real.

my work ethic lately has been .. not great ... my advisor also is kinda leaving me on read which isn't my favorite. shrug. onwards and upwards i suppose. look at this crayfish hole and swallowtail butterfly from a walk in a park yesterday

[dompictel]

So annoying that always Thursdays are my busiest day, can't play updates till tomorrow

I opened tumblr and boom, three spoilers for canto VI instantly

C'mon man