#catelyn critical

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

Hi! I was wondering if you saw Kit’s recent Q&A session about Jon Snow? He made some really interesting comments that I appreciate him finally starting to feel safe about coming out in support of Jon’s actions and mindset. One of things I found interesting, that I think you have touched on well, is Jon’s relationships with women. In a nut shell that he’s drawn to abusive relationship dynamics because of his childhood with Catlyn. Would love to hear your thoughts and analysis.

Hey, Anon! =) Actually, I had no idea until you just told me. I feel horrible that I had no idea a convention was happening. That is definitely one I might try out in the future! So thank you for letting me know about it.

The questions were great and Kit's answers were very well thought out, and really gave us a glimpse into how he works as an actor and how he approaches his career and life as well. So I completely agree with you! It was nice to see him starting to finally feel comfortable enough to be honest with his answers about the show, no matter what people might say. As soon as he said he felt it was right when he saw that Jon was going to kill Dany, I literally clapped and went "Say it a little louder for the Dany/Jonerys stans in the back! Someone was paying attention in class!" And it gave me even more respect for him, not only for being able to say that in that room (and the ensuing boos in the mix of reactions was ridiculous but predictable) but also because he gets it. Like he said, Dany gave Jon no other choice realistically; he had to do it. I also appreciated what he said about Jon, Arya, and the NK. I felt he was very respectful to the show but still shared his opinion, while making sure to state that this was his own personal feeling on it. A lot of good stuff.

Before I get to the Catelyn topic, I will mention that the one answer I sort of didn't agree with was his answer about Jon loving Dany. And that's not because it wasn't what I wanted to hear but because that's not the story the show is telling up until Dany's death in 8x06. That wasn't in the final product that made it to air. Tbf to Kit, perhaps he knows something we don't whether that be through conversations with D&D, GRRM, or what the scripts originally stated in a certain draft. Jon fiercely loving Dany or however he phrased it does not match up to what we were shown on screen. But I do believe when the final season aired, Kit hadn't seen it yet. So it's possible, in post production, several changes happened (like certain scenes getting cut, certain takes used instead, etc.) that neither he, Emilia, nor any of the cast members had seen. But I'm pretty sure he implied he has seen it by now so I'm not quite sure, based on his own reasoning, how he still feels Jon loved Dany. But then again, and also tbf to him again, he did not say how Jon loved Dany and he did not directly answer the relation/incest portion of the question. It's obvious in the show that Jon cared for Dany as family and he may have had some feelings for Dany herself, but the show purposely makes sure to focus on the physical with them, never the emotional. So for me, when he talks about how Jon never got time to focus on finding out who he is, this again lines up better to the show/story we got than the one D&D/the cast/HBO/promo was trying to sell us at the time.

Now this leads into the Catelyn comment he made. I found that particular viewpoint interesting but I didn't lend it a lot of weight if that makes sense? Because he kind of mentions it off the cuff in relation to him thinking about it the night prior which makes complete sense that he would be thinking "what if I get asked about Dany? What do I say?" and that leading to that whole thought track. But while I found this amusing as a mention, I not only didn't take it seriously but I also tend to disagree with that take. Yes, Catelyn's treatment of Jon as a child was horrible, and like with any type of trauma, this can be impactful on a person in ways that they don't always know. But for him to seek it out subconsciously or even purposefully? No, I disagree.

Speaking purely from the show perspective, Ygritte challenges him and she can be dominating like Kit says, but she doesn't mistreat him the way Catelyn does. Even when she gets angry at his betrayal and shoots him full of arrows, she doesn't mistreat him. If anything, she proves to be his ally in many ways and even accepts him for who he is (not only as a crow but also knowing that he's not really a turncoat). She wants him for him because she loves him, and every one of her actions speaks to that fact. So that blows the Catelyn thing out of the water for Ygritte.

As for Dany, no matter what Kit's personal opinion might be on the Jon's love for her aspect, she was no good for Jon. And the show made sure to tell that to the viewers in each episode and even Kit himself said "She turns a corner and doesn't really leave any room for him to continue being with her". We all knew that had Dany survived, Jon was going to become her latest barbecue grill project. Dany was abusive to him, she abused the authority she had over him, and she definitely abused the power dynamics between them. And on top of that, she didn't want Jon to be who he was, not just his Targaryen heritage but also being King in the North, a Stark but not in name, all of it. She wouldn't accept him for who he was and wanted him to stay a bastard, same as Catelyn when he was a boy, and stay subservient to her. So for Jon to go from Point A (Catelyn) to Point B (Ygritte) back to Point A again (Dany), speaking strictly from character development's sake, this doesn't jive. Why would Jon go back to that and want to be subject to that type of cruelty (and this time way worse imho) after he broke away from it and not only did he start to get to know himself as a person and what he stood for, but also after he had a different type of relationship altogether? Story wise this doesn't make sense, and that's even before we look at the story the show actually ended up telling. (and this is why Sansa as a potential romantic interest for Jon would have made so much sense imho, she's set up as Catelyn 2.0 in framing but she's not actually Catelyn and she echoes more closely to Ygritte than Dany ever did like some Jonerys stans try to claim; she accepted Jon for who he was & wanted him for him - she should have been Point C imho)

I'm not saying Jon wasn't traumatized by Catelyn's treatment; I believe he was. But in telling this linear narrative that the show did, and comparing it to other characters and how they were developed, it wouldn't make sense for Jon to go back to this type of woman/treatment as Kit's comment infers. So that's why I don't give any weight to it: it doesn't make sense speaking from character development, it doesn't jive with the story we saw, and the way Kit said it was more conversational than it was a full-on answer.

I hope I was able to answer your question thoroughly, Anon! Again, thank you for telling me about the con. =) I still have to check out Kit's general panel. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your evening!!! <3

[queenvhagar]

Something I've realized about the women characters of HOTD is that they seem to be aware of modern politics and sensibilities in that they seem to be detached from their time and place in a sense.

Realistically, women in these worlds would want the same thing men do in the situations that they're in. When their families' lives are threatened, when their power is threatened, they are willing to go to war. They want vengeance and justice. They want their enemies to pay for what they've done. They want power and security for themselves and those dear to them. Some have hard power, like dragons or skill with the blade, that they can and will use to achieve their goals. In ASOIAF this is Daenerys, Brienne, Arya, and more. Some have soft power, like charisma, influence, and political knowledge, that they can and will achieve their goals. This is Cersei, Sansa, Margaery, and more. All of these tools and weapons are willingly yielded by their users to help themselves and their families to survive and to thrive.

Yet the women of HOTD seem to view these things differently. They stay stuck on the fact that men don't listen to them, instead of using the tools available to them to do anything about it and help themselves as GOT characters would. When Rhaenyra is talked over by her small council, instead of making a show of force or demonstrating her ability to lead and make competent decisions about warfare, all she does is accept what others tell her to do and then complain about it in private. When Alicent is ignored in the small council, instead of using her influence to convince her vulnerable son the king to do as she wants, she puts him down and isolates herself further. Despite the many decisions that these women could take to help themselves or act in any way that could help their situation, they are stagnant and passive.

It's almost as if these women are stuck on their victim status, in that they view themselves as victims in ways that the GOT women have either long accepted as truth or have been socialized to view differently. The women of HOTD know it's not okay for women to be talked down to, they know it's not okay for women to be interrupted or ignored, they know it's bad that nobody takes them seriously, whereas this is barely a thought of the GOT women, for whom it is a part of the world they've already adapted to and they know how to navigate around. Somehow it seems like the HOTD women are consistently shocked and surprised into inaction by the very fact that sexism exists in their world, despite the fact it's been there their whole life and they've never known differently.

This is what I mean when I say that the women of HOTD feel as though they're separate from their time and place. It's as if they exist outside the narrative, outside of this time and place somehow, based on the decisions they make and the way they behave. Instead of acting as others would in their time and place, they frequently seem as if they are aware of modern sensibilities and politics and it's these things that guide their thoughts, decisions, or dialogue. Their awareness of this prevents them from going to war when they have good reason to want to, and realistically any woman in this universe would willingly go to war, and it makes them say certain things that seems almost out of place in the context of the time and place that sound at times as if the writers are using them as a mouthpiece.

Yet the men of the story behave more faithfully to time and place. They desire action, they desire vengeance, they are allowed to feel angry for themselves and they are allowed to want power for the sake of it. They get to be more fully fleshed out in their motivations and personalities. They're believably a part of this time and place. The men behave no differently than the men of GOT save differences in character and context, but the women are so distinctly different from the women of GOT in terms of how they're allowed to feel, speak, and act.

[spacerockfloater]

The “the whole theme of Fire and Blood is about how bad misogyny is!” rhetoric actually makes me laugh, because not only is GRRM himself one of the most misogynistic fantasy writers out there, but his lack of understanding when it comes to one of the fundamental ideas of feminism, which is that all women deserve respect, is evident when you look at the type of women who are uplifted in his work:

1. Beautiful preteen girls who get sexually/ physically abused (Sansa, Daenerys, Shireen)

2. Virginal girls who swear off men and their traditional roles (Arya, Brienne)

3. Dutiful mothers (Catelyn)

And that’s it. A woman is valued in his story only when she is either pretty and young and pure but suffers for it, a virgin that renounces sex completely or has children. Every other single female character is treated like absolute garbage and ridiculed for her weight, age, sex drive, ambition, beliefs etc.

This man is a textbook misogynist. And you know that because his favourite characters are Jon Snow, a byronic hero, and Daemon Targaryen, a controversial deuteragonist. His male characters are part of a spectrum and he adds nuance to all of them by making them complicated, morally challenged yet still somehow superior, macho men with hard abs. They all make difficult decisions that are based on their trauma/ experiences and personal values/ ambitions, they’re all multidimensional beings that can’t be described as purely good or evil, but! The women in his works are helpless little creatures that stuff just keeps happening to them and he praises them depending on if their reactions to these situations appeal to the male fantasy and ideal of what a good woman should be, but punishes them when they make decisions for themselves. In his work, men are proactive, but women are reactive.

Both Rhaenyra and Alicent are evil caricatures. An evil stepmom, a spoiled bratty daughter. He never meant for his story to make us think “wow! patriarchy is bad!”, even if we obviously thought it anyway and it’s true. All he wanted was to tell a shocking story full of badass men doing badass things.

[uluthrek]

asoiaf characters with a canonical breeding kink:

-ned stark (thinks about having more kids with his wife during a meeting like three times)

-catelyn stark (fantasizes about getting pregnant literally mid-boning, still wants more of her husband’s kids after he fucking dies)

-alyssa targaryen (girleen tells her husband she was “made for this” while slowly dying of childbed fever and tells him she’ll give him “an army of sons”)

-jahaerys and alysanne (they have fourteen kids. look me in the eyes and tell me they don’t have a breeding kink. and don’t you “but medieval society” me. it’s a breeding kink if i say it’s a breeding kink.)

[agentrouka-blog]

I often see this sentiment that Ned should have told Cat the truth about Jon and it would have solved all their problems. I disagree with this? I don't think Ned was being an idiot for not telling Cat. I think there were a multitude of reasons of why he didn't tell her, and all of them held weight in his decision.

1) he didn't know or trust her when they got married

2) a secret stops being one if you tell even one person about it. He promised Lyanna he wouldn't tell anyone and that included everyone, except obviously the people already present at the tower (Howland and the wet nurse I presume)

3) there is a possibility that Cat's behavior towards Jon would have changed knowing he was not a result of Ned's affair, but her resentment towards him also provided a cover. If she treated him, say cordially, then it would have been very suspicious considering Ned was already fostering him at his own home.

4) after he came to know Cat, he would have realized that she was fiercely protective of her family, she wouldn't have thought twice before giving up Jon for her children if it came to that. A choice no sane person, including Ned, can fault her for. By not telling her, he removed that option for her, saved Jon and also saved her from the guilt that would have haunted her.

5) he was committing treason that would have endangered Cat and his children. In case it ever got out there was plausible deniability for his family that they didn't know and it might have saved them.

His actions hurt both Catelyn and Jon but it was a very complicated situation overall so I understand him too. I don't know what would have been the alternative because I don't think telling Catelyn would have solved anything. What is your opinion on this?

I don't think people generally claim it would have magically fixed "everything", but many also misunderstand how Ned is mishandling the situation. He isn't actually handling it well by himself, he isn't handling it the way he would have if Jon was actually his bastard. His inability to be "normal" about it and come up with a convincing lie created most of the avoidable problems we see, which is Catelyn's eternal insecurity about Ned's feelings for Jon (and his mother) which feeds her anxiety about her own children being usurped, plus Jon's complete trauma over knowing absolutely nothing about his mother. Both are left hanging for no logical reason from their POV, and that's an absolutely insane path for Ned to go down.

True, and then he chose to go the worst way about it and never fixed it later.

Howland knows. The Daynes know. Wylla probably knows. Benjen probably knows. Come on. And we don't know what she made him promise and it's more likely to be along the lines of protecting her son than specifically never telling anyone who could have helped him handle this better.

Catelyn being "nice" to Jon isn't even half of it. She could have advised Ned on how to handle the situation in a realistic way with the least harm done. Which is likely to foster Jon somewhere, make plans for his future instead of leaving him aimless, create a believable lie about his mother that doesn't shame him, have a harmoniously accepted situation instead of making his kids grow up with this unresolved conflict warping their emotional well-being.

What situation could realistically arise where Cat could "sell out" Jon to "save" her children that specifically depends on her knowing this and also wouldn't mean they are all already in deep trouble? It's nonsense. Also, Catelyn "Family Duty Honor" Tully would not fault Ned for wanting to save his sister's child. It's a perfectly decent choice on his part and a dilemma she could easily understand. Come on!

How is this (thin glaze) of plausible deniability not equally achieved by simply lying (and lying better than Ned can, especially)?

It's just that Ned left both Cat and Jon deeply anxious and traumatized, respectively, because his decision was to lie very badly and then refuse to answer all reasonable questions. It has repercussions for all of them. From Cat to Sansa to Jon to Robb.

Plus: Ned may have actually had an opportunity to heal from his horrific trauma if he had talked to literally anyone about it. He may have been less likely to cling to Robert as a vestige of his lost youth, blinding himself to the man's monstrous faults and sticking around to his own doom.

It would not have "fixed everything" but you can't convince me it wouldn't have fixed some things.

[alicentcole]

i know this has been said up and down already, but thinking of jeyne poole’s got me thinking once again of how martin failed to give catelyn and sansa ladies. maybe arya was too young to have a companion, but sansa is clearly not, and she only has jeyne and beth and both of them are already part of the starks’ own household; no lord or lady of any northern house is benefiting from that. how come there weren’t young ladies from the north and the riverlands flocking to join sansa in king’s landing after she got betrothed to joffrey?

then there’s catelyn’s absolute dearth of ladies, like, no river lord sent his daughters and sisters north to wait on the lady of winterfell? no northern lord wanted to take advantage of the southron girl recently come to winterfell with the women of their own households? couldn’t even one of rodrik cassel’s late wives not have been even mentioned in passing to have waited on catelyn? maybe jeyne’s own mother? given castle cerwyn’s proximity to winterfell, you’d think lady cerwyn would make the most of it but apparently not lol

i guess giving sansa more ladies in king’s landing would be a mess of highborn hostages for the north in lannister hands so george got out of handling that?

[matherofdragons]

Imagine Catelyn Stark teleporting into Kingslanding from Winterfell, using Littlefinger's teleportation device for the sake of Got!

Cersei is in the sept, praying. Cat goes to her and says:

"Cersei, I came to you with an offer! Kill Robb, Bran, Rickon, Edmure, Jon and Blackfish! Take the North and the Riverlands, I'll make sure Winterfell opens its gates for you. just let me and Sansa and Arya leave and live happily in Essos!"

[amaltheas-garden]

The cringe bastard supporting show!Rhaenys vs the based trueborn daughter supporting book!Catelyn

"It was ever my husband's will that Driftmark pass through Ser Laenor to his trueborn son Lucerys Velaryon. His mind never changed. Nor did my support of him."- HotD 1x08

"I know who he is, Corlys. Alyn's past is no fault of his. He saved his lord's life. He should be raised up and honored, not hidden beneath the tides."- HotD 2x04

"Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law she comes after Sansa... your own sister, trueborn..."- ASoS, Catelyn V, 521

[horizon-verizon]

Since TG insist on watching HOTD trough a traditional/medieval lens, let’s remind them that according to GRRM himself and Westeros, Alicent isn’t a child bride:

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1050

A boy is Westeros is considered to be a “man grown” at sixteen years. The same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one is for us.

However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant... and in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding.

There’s a reason why Ned and Catelyn have absolutely no problem with Jon Arryn despite him marrying a teenager and Ned still worship him, there’s a reason why TG (who also happen to be Martell stans) support Daeron II selling his 15 years-old sister to an older Maron Martell, and defend Oberyn despite him having sex with a 16 years-old Alayaya.

A running line of hypocrisy...

[throwawayasoiafaccount]

people who think that rhaegar caused the rebellion should also believe that catelyn kidnapping tyrion caused the war of the five kings.

[ladyaryawolf]

Arya would hate you for the way you talk about her family don't you DARE call yourself her fan

I'll call myself whatever I want, darling.

And please, enlighten me, what did I say about her family?

[greenaswildfire]

Comparisons between Rhaenys and Catelyn on how they act when it comes to bastards it's already a confirmation to what we can expect in seasons 3 and 4 for House Stark in hotd, imho:

Like Hess apparently wanted, probably they'll find a way to paint Starks as "hidden greens" without honor because Hess thought that Cregan took his sweet time to come to KL on purpose. Guuurl, unlike Targaryens, they don't have dragons nor Littlefinger's Tardis to answer madam black queen the exact second she demands the northern armies or something.

But wait... House Stark will only start this "honor" thing when Ned and Robert are fostered by Jon Arryn (an andal house, as high as honor hein?), years after the Dance. Brandon himself wasn't honorable nor pacifist. So Hess, the Stark honor you want to deconstruct in hotd so much doesn't exist yet, I guess you can come up with something else then :)

Oh and coming back to Rhaenys and Catelyn comparisons, I guess we need to remember important things here. Valyrian houses are no man's lands: everything is allowed, from incest to polygamy, bastards are the less of the problems because as long as a bastard can ride a dragon everything is cool, House baratheon itself was said to exist due to some bastard brother of the Conqueror marrying Argella Durrandon.

Catelyn belongs to Tully+Whent houses: Andal houses with a more restricted law and customs, bastards are abominations for them.

So before trying to belittle Catelyn because she was born and raised as an average andal woman, friendly reminder that Targaryens are no longer the scale by which the morals of the characters are measured in Asoiaf. They even had to join the Faith of the Seven, an andal religion, and when the show starts, they are no longer monarchs.

Everyone says "oooh I love grey characters", but when they do show up that's what frequently happens: female characters being criticized/compared for 'not being Mary Sues' enough (always women, impressive...). You all say that you don't want perfect characters, but when a character like Catelyn shows up with her failures, you humiliate her and want her to be permissive and receptive like Rhaenys, hypocrites lmao

[aegoneggon]

oh god not to be a doomer but if s3 alicent is going to accompany daeron I am a bit worried. the talk she had with gwayne where she asks "was it the court or was it their mother?" is clearly going to be explored if she has a season with daeron. as we know from the books daeron does take a darker turn as the war goes on and I wonder if the show will imply its alicents fault since we know how much the showrunners feel like alicent needs to be 'humbled'

[pinkwhite]

Hmmm now if I was the showrunner of The ACOTAR show I would makew Rhysand have sons and Amren his mistress.

[agentrouka-blog]

Sorry to bring up Jon & Cat discourse but I saw a post in the Jon tag where they talked about how yes both Catelyn & Jon were victims (Catelyn patriarchy Jon bastard stigma) but Catelyn and Jon are not equally victims because there is a power imbalance between them, with Catelyn being the Lady of Winterfell.

The thing is Idt I've ever seen people deny this existing? Furthermore does she actually use this power imbalance against him?

They are actually both victims of patriarchy (bastardy is a concept that can only exist in patriarchy because it protects male property and sexual freedom first and foremost) and people don't like pointing that out too much because it prevents them from ignoring how much more responsible Ned is for Jon's wellbeing and subsequent unhappiness than Catelyn could ever be.

So Catelyn making Jon feel unwelcome by ignoring him is emphasized as abusive because her relative power as Lady of Winterfell is greater than Jon's as a child - and then they end the discussion there.

They leave it there, instead of taking it to where GRRM likely intended it, which is to ask why they expect Catelyn to compensate for the very real conflict of interest Ned's choices introduce into their household and into Catelyn's life (and Jon's life, see also the absolute shame he feels about wanting normal things). Catelyn is supposed to swallow her personal interest and her feelings because otherwise Child Abuse.

Jon is so humble and selfless, after all, he never gives Ned any trouble, he would never ever put his own interest and feelings above what is most convenient for Ned.

Because this is about making sure everything is convenient for Ned the patriarch. Actually working to create a mediated peace between two parties with legitimate conflict? Nah, he gives Arya sword lessons, so he can't possibly be the main beneficiary of this mess and abusing his power exponentially more than Cat because he never says a mean word to Jon ever. Abuse is hurt feelings from cold glances, after all.

See also patriarchy, and how best to defend it by pitting victims against each other! ❤️

(Commence angry Jon stans in 3... 2... -- Actually, no, please don't. This is not an invitation. I have had this discussion too many times. If you don't agree just step away and focus on what sparks joy.)

[crimsoncold]

Polls, Plans for a Future ASOIAF art series, and some Criticism of Antis and thoughts General Fandom etiquette ...

First of all thank you to anyone who participated in my poll on which pair of House Stark characters have the most underrated/underappreciated similarities or paralells (and for so many of you for taking the poll in the spirit it was intended and staying respectful in your tags- I always worry about that as part of the asoiaf/got fandom, particularly being a Sansa-stan and Jonsa shipper in general)

I was using this poll as a bit of research/inspiration for a future art series I wanted to do (there are just so many possible paralells/comparisons that I find intriguing or emotionally compelling, but i can only devote so much time to one specific art piece/series and was really struggling to narrow down the specific character pairs I wanted to focus on- hence the poll I made!)

So after getting an idea about which parallels resonate with people -and feel are underrepresented or unappreciated by fandom- and holding to the idea that if you want to see something specific or rare discussed or done in fandom/fanfiction/or fanart sometimes you just have to do it yourself ... I've checked the results and have decided I'm eventually going to do a cross-generation art series exploring certain characters' narrative parallels/similarities to eachother as well as a tribute to any canon relationship they have to one another...

It will include a Sansa & Ned piece, a Robb & Lyanna one, and lastly an Arya & Catelyn one.

Side note I'm also thinking of doing a separate Jonsa art piece that focuses a bit on the many ways their plotlines/arcs/dreams mirror one another.

(It's all going to take awhile- a few months probably but I'm very excited and I've already started brain storming ideas)

Ok now that I've expressed my appreciation and shared the more positive outcome from this poll now I want to take a moment to vent a bit about some of the negative backlash, address my general stance on antis, and give a little reminder about general fandom etiquette...

(I've tagged this accordingly so I'm unsure that any of the people this is directed at/could benefit from reading this will ever encounter it... but still I think its important to put it out there- even if only because it allows me to process my own thoughts and feelings on the matter)

(This may at times come across slightly bitchy- I'm alright with that but I decided I'd preface this by emphasizing... This is intended as a criticism of toxic stans... it is not the condemning of a specific character/certain character parallels, and it is not criticism of people who are simply fans of said character in general... everyone understand that? Good lets move on)

So I'm sort of feeling darkly amused about how (with I think a single nice exception?) the comments made on this poll (even multiple in a row from one user) were people wanting to complain that I chose to excluded some pair/parallel that they prefer ....

Instead of taking... what 10 seconds?... to read my explanation around why certain pairs were excluded from the poll- which would have apparently saved them a lot of grief...

(I.e. its not that the parallels between these pairs aren't present OR that I don't think they are meaningful... it's simply that I feel those sets of characters are very high profile and are frequently discussed in terms of their parallels by a significant portion of fandom and thus should NOT be included in a poll meant to consider underappreciated Stark character parallels)

...And then say deciding to either take this poll in the spirit it was intended (once again... to consider what is the most underrated/underappreciated stark paralells? NOT to focus on or reiterate some of the most talked about ones in all of asoiaf fandom?) or choosing to simply scroll past if they weren't interested in the options/design of the poll..

They instead chose to have a hissy fit in the comments about how offended they were that Lyanna was listed as having parallels with any Stark kid other than Arya (not just Sansa- which unfortunately is not exactly an unexpected response but apparently the idea of Robb + Lyanna having paralells was also deeply offensive. Who knew? I would have expected all the house stark boys were completely immune to the unecessary hate/criticism/dismissal that so much of fandom and many arya stans gleefully direct towards Sansa)

Or took the time to explicitly complain that I didn't include Arya being compared to.... whoever? Ned and Jon I think, maybe others? I've forgotten their explicit instructions on all their arya stan approved comparisons. Because isn't it sooo biased of me not to include these pairs because clearly Arya is the only character who can rightfully be compared to Lyanna or Ned... even in a post explicitly about parallels underrated by fandom!!! These commonly discussed parallels absolutely NEED to be an option even then... and if it isn't it has to be because the person who made it is prejudiced and biased-not because the pair/character parallels dont actually fit the poll criteria.

Really this just further justifies my disappointment in certain types of stans and makes me feel I wasn't being pessimistic or jumping at shadows when I listed my second reason for avoiding including those as pairs in this poll (i.e. wanting to avoid devoting space to pairs/paralells that bring out the worst in certain toxic stans- i just dont need to deal with that and neither does anyone else)

...when I say that certain character parallels bring up weird defensiveness/unpleasantness/stubborness in fans .. well these people choose to respond to such a statement by just literally proving my point.

If you dont like this poll instead of leaving comments to complain about it and its creator maybe go make your own Arya centric one?... would that not be a better use of your time? Or are you so lacking in creativity/the ability to think critically and express yourself persuasively that you can only ever complain about the content other's make and never actually be a productive or positive member of fandom through creating your own content?

All your actions do is make it less enjoyable to read or discuss said popular character or character parallels... you actively drive people away from the fandom discussion around your favorite characters/character parallels... which is an interesting choice to say the least.

I would love to plan out fanart that explores both the major and subtler ways the stark sisters echo both of their parents and even each other... but I am hesitant... Arya stans like these totally just reinforce both my concern that such content would not generally find acceptance/appreciation and my certainty that I would not even simply be peacefully left alone to explore or share these ideas without toxic stans invading my blog to bitch to me about... i don't know? How I'm awful for choosing to taint asoiaf things that sacredly belong only to Arya by including/linking them to evil incarnate Sansa or fandom nobody Robb? That I'd dare malign someone as precious as Arya by having the audacity to think or say that she has similarities to the useless female characters Sansa or Catelyn?

I'm a fan of all the stark kids (including Arya- i love the Stark sisters and wish more fandom discussion around their relationship was based in empathy and nuanced consideration rather than being mostly vitriolic and obviously biased) but stans like this make me not want to branch out beyond the more Sansa/Jonsa centric circles or content... because at least with this part of fandom I encounter people used to seeing/experiencing rudeness or outright harassment and who are not interested in behaving that way themselves (notice people weren't up in arms and taking to the comments in outrage about me choosing to not include and list Sansa and Catelyn parallels ... almost as if Sansa-stans don't harass or criticize people in their own posts... unlike many others I could list)

(including me!!!! I tag my content/art as in depth as possible not just to make it easy to find but also as a curtesy to be easy to filter or block for those who aren't interested in certain fandoms/ships/or even my art and content in general

I wish these people would remember that fandom is a hobby and we do this because we enjoy it... curate your fandom experience, scroll past things that don't interest you/filter any tags you want/block content or blogs that you don't like or don't care to see.

I am doing my part!

I am not willfully invading/infecting your space in fandom with my terrible interest in the starks/sansa/jonsa... use your damn filters and/or block my blog ... don't leave nasty comments for me or the other people to see)

Seriously!!!! Don't waste your energy on negativity, or your time on being rude or purposefully invading specific fandom spaces just to criticize and argue with people in fandom who you disagree with

... because I'm not going to engage with you or argue with you or in any way validate/reinforce your shitty behaviour, I'm not going to sink to your level by invading your blog or your posts to complain about you or your interests... I'm going to block you wearing a smile (just one less unpleasant person to run into in this fandom)

and lastly I'm just going to continue to post/enjoy all the characters/topics/ships that you hate.

and if I complain about what you've done or use it to emphasize my stance on specific antis or fandom conduct in general it will be only ever be in my own posts on my own blog- without explicitly identifying you/referencing your blog/or directing actual harassment or negativity towards you ... (I'm not going to make you feel justified in your negative opinions about/harassment of sansa-stans, jonsa fans, or just literally anyone in fandom who you disagree with... I'm not going to give you evidence/ammunition to slander or smear segments of fandom you consider undesirable... I'm just not going to lower myself the way you do... i have more respectful for myself and for other people in fandom... I'm content to let you look like the asshole and never have to think about you again)

if you failed to develope the ability to give enough of a shit about other people to be respectful in fandom spaces, filter and block accordingly, or at least be civil in your interactions please have enough respect for your own free time and at least care enough about your own emotional well-being and happiness to start acting this way ... Swear to god this will make things more enjoyable not just for others but for yourself as well

Now I'm going to go back to reblogging/making fan art of things I like... because it makes me happy and I don't wish to invest anymore time on negative things or negative people.

- Crimson Cold