Hi. I apologize for the delayed response. I've been busy with Lunar New Year celebrations, and unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to check Tumblr until now. Here are the links that I sent in the foreshadowing ask https://www.tumblr.com/maoam/740334141571219456/chapter-182-beginning-of-sasuke-retrieval?source=share and https://maoam.tumblr.com/post/689252113529847808/narutos-feelings-in-kage-arc. I also apologize that I should have considered the possibility of you being wary about clicking on unknown links, especially given the current complex state of network security. I simply wanted to ensure my ask appeared tidy.
Hello there, I know you sent me an ask a long time ago about my opinion on these posts, I don't know Japanese so I can't say for sure if what she translated is correct.
What I can tell you, is that suicide amongst Japanese warriors was a practice that was considered the epitome of self-sacrifice towards an ideal. It was also an undying proof of loyalty, the ethos of Bushidō:
Ideas of the samurai code formalized earlier samurai moral values and ethics, most commonly stressing a combination of sincerity, frugality, loyalty, martial arts mastery, honor until death, "bravery", and "loyalty to the samurai's lord." The idea of a samurai code or codes was developed and refined centuries before the Edo period in the Kamakura period. (Source)
Seppuku (切腹, lit. 'cutting [the] belly'), also called harakiri (腹切り, lit. 'abdomen/belly cutting', a native Japanese kun reading), is a form of Japanese ritualistic suicide by disembowelment. It was originally reserved for samurai in their code of honour, but was also practised by other Japanese people during the Shōwa era (Source)
I don't understand the comparison, regardless. Why do they claim a character (Darui) speaking of double suicide directly relates to Naruto speaking of dying alongside Sasuke (they used Japanese raws in one image, not in the other one, so I'm not sure the possible interpretation of the Japanese writing, did Naruto use the same "心中" that Darui used?).
The first example they present is from a specific character and his arc (Shikamaru), is he who introduces the notion (women being a problem), and is he who closes it, modifying his views (for a specific woman, Temari).
In the second case, it's Darui who introduces the notion (in a single bubble speech, not an entire page like Shikamaru to convey the relevance of his views), so how come is Naruto the one who closes it?
There's no mention of suicide, either, Naruto claims they'll die together, but the context implies a clash, a fight between them both, not a double suicide; furthermore, Naruto's statement is "If we really do take this all the way to the end, and we both die..." He's not choosing to die, and he's not looking forward to it either, he's listing it as a possibility, that if it happened, it'll mean that in the next life, they'd have no burden of being an Uchiha or a jinchüriki, being able to understand one another without that weight upon them. Having a "clean slate" to understand one another, of sorts...
Kishimoto used the name Monzaemon Chikamatsu as the creator of puppetry ninjutsu, and he is one of the most well-respected Japanese authors. Indeed, Chikamatsu was better known for his double-suicide stories (alongside his reflection of commoners within his plays), but Kishimoto likely used this name because Chikamatsu was, well, a japanese playwright of the jōruri, puppet theatrical art, ancestor of bunraku and kabuki; so likely his homage has more to do with Chikamatsu being "the father" of puppet plays, and less to do with the idea of "double suicide" (Chikamatsu is also mentioned in a completely different arc by Sasori when fighting Chiyo, there's no mention about his stories but rather, his relevance as a puppeteer).
About the second post... I don't know what to say, Hinata confesses as she ends her speech with "I love you, Naruto-kun", while Naruto finishes it with "I'm happy I knew you", the speeches are similar as they both focus on the influence of the other person in their lives and how they inspired them to move forward in their goal; they both idealized the other (Hinata -> Naruto / Naruto -> Sasuke) so in that front, I understand the parallelism.
Naruto uses this speech to morally downgrade Sasuke ("one bad move... and I could have been like you..."). Hinata's confession focuses on how she wants to be beside Naruto, moving alongside him, Naruto's speech is mostly about how he wants to "surpass" Sasuke (their fallout starts when Sasuke refuses to acknowledge Naruto).
I don't understand the "notice how Hinata is facing away from Naruto while confessing, while Naruto is facing Sasuke. It’s the same thing whenever Sakura is confessing, Sasuke always gives her his back. This is again intentional from Kishi." The reasoning is different: Sasuke turns his back towards Sakura because he doesn't want to face her (there's rejection, yes), and Hinata has her back turned because she's facing Pain. Naruto is paying attention to her. Meanwhile, Sasuke and Naruto are facing one another because they're the ones about to fight, so the context in each situation is completely different.
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Himehiko Timeline
This is my best attempt to gather the information we get about the Tamasaka Himehiko line and thus the game universe timeline. It is based on what I've found in the game and bonus material, but it may yet be incomplete. If you have any information I'm missing, please let me know. It's also always possible we get more lore drops in extra material.
It'll be behind a cut, so I will edit any additional information into the post. If I add things, I'll try to keep track here of when the last edit was.
This will obviously contain spoilers for the full game (especially Kisa's route - major spoilers for Kisa's route) as well as bits of side material. Specifically the First Anniversary Short Story and the Summer Light Novel, though also the pre-release short stories on the website and others.
Shout out to the other people who seem to have independently attempted the same project, including Anemone (@ snowblossom_jj on twitter) for something to double check myself against.
Before I go right into the Himehiko Timeline, I'm going to put in some Japanese Theater History for context, though it's worth noting none of this is referenced specifically in the game and may differ within the Jack Jeanne universe.
As always, happy to answer questions via asks or elsewhere if you have them.
Japanese Theater History potentially of note.
1374 - Kan'ami (観阿弥) and 12 year old son Zeami (世阿弥) perform what would become known as Noh for the teenage shogun Ashikaga Yoshimitsu (足利 義満) who is so impressed by Zeami he gives him patronage. Zeami is educated in court and eventually becomes the Shogun’s lover. At 22, after his father’s death, he takes over the family troupe and begins to integrate his classical education and Buddhist instruction into the art. He goes on to formalize Noh, write plays for it, and treatises on acting and the Philosophy of Drama that continue to be informative to this day.
Of note, the idea of “hana” 『花』 is one of his core tenants, and his formulation of “the flower of youth” vs “the flower of experience” is referenced in game, though not credited.
1603 - Izumo no Okuni (出雲 阿国) creates Kabuki. It is originally performed by a troupe of all women.
1629 - Women are banned from Kabuki for “morality” leading to the form being taken over by “young men” who are later also banned for being too sexy, in moves through the next several decades.
Probably by the timeline we are given for Tamasaka, in our world, Kabuki would have been established as an all male form of theater, with men playing women’s roles referred to as “onnagata” as they are to this day. It is unclear if this history happens the same within the Jack Jeanne universe, as no mention of Kabuki itself happens in game, and Tamasakaza isn’t placed within it as a larger tradition, despite being described in much the way Kabuki is, suggesting perhaps in the Jack Jeanne universe, history diverges at some point.
1680s - Bunraku, (then known as Jourui) a form of Puppet Theater takes on something close to its modern form and starts becoming increasingly popular. Many famous Kabuki plays were originally written “for the puppets” and the literary tradition is considered overlapping.
1683 - Chikamatsu Monzaemon (近松 門左衛門, 1653 – 1725) has his first verified play produced. He is sometimes called the “Shakespeare of Japan”. He would continue writing plays for both puppet theater and kabuki, until around 1715. He was a writer, but did not act. He is most famous for his lovers’ suicides.
HIMEHIKO TIMELINE
1st Himehiko - His name was Chuza Tsukihiko (中座月彦), and he lived sometime in the “mid-Edo period’ about 300 years before the present. Specific dates are hard to pin down, but we’re looking at around (or maybe a little before or after) 1700. It is likely not exactly 300 years ago, give or take a few years, as no one in the game mentions any kind of anniversary, and you’d assume the 300th (or 200th of the established settled troupe) would be marked and mentioned.
He’s canonically called a "bishonen" and was known to be able to play both male and female roles. At this time, in our universe, no women would have been allowed on stage. We know his troupe was all male.
He receives the patronage of a local lord (much like Zeami) - the lord of the castle in Hiraki - Hiraki Matsubara (開松原). Matsubara was considered very talented and is credited with the town flourishing under his rule as well as the creation of Tamasaka and Tamasakaza.
He is given the name Tamasaka Himehiko 玉阪 比女彦 which he takes on, and which becomes the title passed down. (The name "Tamasaka" is mentioned to maybe be a play on the word 『偶さか』 implying a "rare, unusual kind of talent")
Though the troupe itself will be considered a traveling troupe for the next 100 years, it seems to have a sort of home base on that lord’s land. They are given land for a stage there, the forebearer of the Tamasaka theater that exists to day.
We know little about him, but one thing we know is that he was quite fond of the story of the catfish god in Ayahama (which is historically near where Hiraki Castle is), and used to dance in tribute there. The relationship between Tamasaka and the hot springs goes back all the way to him.
There is one Wisteria tree on Mt. Oodate, and he is said to have been fond of it. (Fuji Musume - 藤娘- is one of the most famous Kabuki dance/plays, though technically it would have, in our universe, postdated the first generation Himehiko, it is likely a reference).
He dies of “severe, violent emotional suffering”.
He is enshrined in Himehiko shrine, and may actually be buried there. He is worshipped there as a god of theatre, and a bringer of fortune in other endeavors as well. This would imply the shrine is established well before the troupe settles.
2nd - The next Himehiko is the elder brother of the first. We don’t know if the rule that was later in place that the title be passed to someone under the age of 30 was in place yet. It may imply that the troupe, like Zeami’s was a family affair at least in part, from the beginning, if his brother was considered the natural next head.
3rd - The eldest son of the 2nd.
History that happens at an unclear point in the timeline after this --
At some point after this, though it does not seem to be specifically after the 3rd, in the way it’s told, one generation of Himehiko will choose to pass the title onto an adopted son. Rather than the adopted son taking the Chuza name as well, this son becomes the start of a new branch family, known as the Tamasaka branch. From this point on, the title will occasionally pass between the Tamasaka and Chuza branches, eventually developing into quite the rivalry. The Tamasaka branch became known as “true flowers” or the more talented of the two branches. The exact timeline of all of this unclear.
At some point, after several early, tragic deaths of people carrying the Himehiko name, both branches of the family begin to speak of a “Himehiko Curse” - which causes those who take the title to die young. They believe in this so strongly that people from both branches will sometimes pass up the title, or defer it, to try to avert the fate. However, it doesn’t seem to be something that affects every Himehiko. Just enough of them for it to be considered a threat in the family.
How it operates and if it is one of the genuine supernatural forces in the Jack Jeanne universe is unclear. The first Himehiko dies of severe mental suffering. The cause of death for others is not established.
It is possible that, either supernaturally or non-supernaturally, it is the distillation of the stress, politics, rivalries, burdens, and expectations of the theatre.
All of this happens and is well established between the 3rd Himehiko and the 10th Himehiko, but specifics are vague.
At some point, a rule is added that the title is past to a young man under the age of 30.
It seems some people may pass the title down before they die, rather than it only transferring via death. It is unclear the effect this has on the curse within the narrative of it.
At another point, rather than taking the full stage name of Himehiko, each generation takes only half as their stage name - either Hime or Hiko, plus an additional character. This was done to try to avoid the “curse”. It does not work.
4th - A tree in the courtyard of Himehiko Shrine, which contains many trees, including many fruit trees, is said to have been planted by him. All we get is that the tree is “planted in the lucky direction.”
It is possible this is an Ume tree, which apparently can be considered a protective charm against evil and is traditionally planted in the northeast corner of a garden. Other than this, I can’t find much — the other mentions of lucky directions change by year, and don't seem to be what’s being referred to.
5th - nothing is known
6th - nothing is known
7th - Established Tamasaka Drama School as per random Neji encounter. Neji says he ‘fell in love with…’ and is then cut off. We get no other info from that encounter, or elsewhere.
It’s possible that the establishing of the Drama School coincided with the settling of the Troupe from a traveling one to a stationary one, but that’s not mentioned directly. If so, that would put 7th at about 100 years after the 1st, and about 200 years before the present.
It is unclear if from this point on all Himehiko’s also serve as Principal of the School or not.
At some point “several generations back (from present)” the principal of the school plants Night Jasmine on Mt. Oodate.
(About 200 years ago, the Takashina Style of dance is founded as a family dance tradition. It has no association with Tamasakaza, but given it’s part of the timeline we get, plus the Kabuki/Nihon Buyo overlap in our universe, I’m putting it on here.)
8th - The tree he planted at the shrine is the most prominent one. No other info is known.
9th - nothing is known.
10th - From the Tamasaka Line. Very likely the older brother of the 11th - According to the Anniversary Short Story, he dies a shocking and tragic death (that would fit within the narrative of the Himehiko Curse). The title would then be passed to his younger brother.
11th - Real name Tamasaka Shikitoshi 玉阪 志木年 - stage name unknown. He is the current head of the troupe during the Meiji era merger of Hikari and Tamasaka, as depicted in the Anniversary Short Story. That takes place in 22nd year of the Meiji Era - 1889, giving us our first firm date.
According to Tancho, the lead Hiko actor at the time was rather critical and nagging of him, but in the events depicted in Neji’s play, ultimately is willing to almost give his life to protect 11th.
In Neji’s telling of the events he is described as innovative, as well as a very shrewd politician. And rather indifferent or reckless about threats against his own life.
He has two daughters and no sons. Presumably no one else in the Tamasaka branch has any sons of eligible age either. To prevent the name from passing back to the Chuza branch, and perhaps as a test on the limits of the Himehiko Curse, to see if it would spare women, Shikitoshi passes the title to his second daughter.
We have no information on why not the first daughter - whether she was over 30, or less skilled, or didn’t want it - all we know is that he passed it to his second daughter.
12th - The second daughter of the 11th. Member of the Tamasaka Family. First and only female Himehiko. The tree she donated to the shrine is marked with an actor’s crest of clappers — something recognizable as specifically belonging to her.
Despite being a woman, she was not just a figurehead, and actively acted in Tamasaka Plays. There is at least one that she was quite fond of, that involved a Kimono salesperson and a woman walking around on “Izayoi” - a play that the troupe stopped performing after her early and tragic death.
Tagane was involved in a revival of this play at some point, likely a pretty clear sign of his loyalty to the Tamasaka Branch faction.
At some point, it is likely that she placed a platinum Kanzashi bearing her crest in a wooden box in a tree hollow near Himehiko Shrine, following the superstition and custom born out of the Tamasaka play “Tearful Kanzashi."
“Tearful Kanzashi" depicts a young woman (the fourth daughter of a man with no sons, who is abused and locked away by her father in anger after her birth also kills her mother) putting the Kanzashi her lover gives her into a tree by a shrine she stops at to pray to be reunited with him in the next life, before throwing herself off a cliff. (For more, see the Summer Light Novel chapter).
This also takes place on the 16th night of the lunar cycle. It is unclear if the play is the same one — but since the summary is given to Suzu and Kisa by a Kimono salesman, it seems unlikely that it wouldn’t include that detail if it were the same — rather it seems likely Tearful Kanzashi predates the 12th, and Tamasaka just has a lot of plays that use "Izayoi" in them.
This may indicate that the 12th takes her own life like the woman in the play, but it’s all speculation beyond that her death fits within the narrative of the Himehiko Curse.
After her early, tragic death, the title passes back to the Chuza Branch, and the whole incident/experiment is considered a disaster.
12th's older sister, and thus the surviving Tamasaka Branch go into hiding of some kind. She has children, thus continuing the line, under an assumed name. The Tamasaka branch retains supporters both in the troupe and the town, who believe that the Tamasaka branch have true talent that the Chuza branch lacks.
13th - Chuzu Dairi (中座内吏), stage name Uchihime (内比女).
After the death of the 12th, the title passes back to the Chuza line for the first time in 80 years. He quickly makes a new rule, reserving the Himehiko title for the Chuza branch, further pushing the Tamasaka branch into hiding and out of power.
We know he was born in the Meiji era (ended 1912) and lived until Showa (started 1926).
He had a strong interest in western style plays and musicals, and is the one who renamed the Tamasaka Drama School to Univeil Drama School, as well as changing the roles from Hiko and Hime to Jack and Jeanne within the school.
(For what it’s worth, Takarazuka is started in 1913. It was based heavily on western, particularly French musical Revue in direct contrast to Kabuki. It was started by a businessman in the city of Takarazuka as an all women’s theater company. Much of Jack Jeanne is based on a gender swap of Takarazuka as inspiration, but its timeline and the actual style of Tamasaka do not match Takarazuka. But this is a Himehiko Timeline so no more on Takarazuka for now.)
He apparently made a good deal of innovations to the troupe as well, and seems to have been quite active and hands on in both.
It’s hard to pin down how long and exactly when he lived and was in charge.
Kisa’s class being the 78th class would put the first numbered class in 1942, which is a particularly strange year for a traditional theater school in Japan for young, fit boys to be rebranding to a western aesthetic. It would literally be months after the attack on Pearl Harbor and several years into a war that greatly disrupted all forms of theater, calling most able bodied men to arms, rather than dance - so that’s something to consider when trying to fit the timeline. Perhaps there are years missing - a reversion to the old name, a pause in the numbering, but for some reason they pick up from where they left off, rather than restart? There is no indication in any material of any of this, either way.
14th - Takahiko (鷹彦) - the grandfather of Chuza Shuri, the current/18th Himehiko. Written with the character for “Hawk” and is noted as having very sharp eyes, but otherwise looking very much like Shuri. The game’s timeframe puts him taking up the title some time when black and white portraits were still most common, but recent enough that an old lady alive and walking around Tamasaka remembers him as a young man.
Apparently, he married a wealthy local family’s daughter after taking the position of Himehiko - and this old woman remembers having a crush on him at the time, and being disappointed - so one could guess that she was at least in her teens then.
The game’s menu actually says he’s the one who designed the school, rather than 13th - so perhaps Takahiko is the one who designed it architecturally - even if the rebrand happened before hand.
15th - nothing specifically is known
16th - nothing specifically is known
17th - nothing specifically is known
We know nothing about these or the order they were in, but one was almost certainly Shuri's father. In the anniversary short story, Tancho mentions Shuri's father by name. His name seems to have been Chuza Osamu (中座倫). From what Tancho says, the implication is that Shuri's father maybe have been principal before him, whether right before or not is not clear, or if he served this role concurrent with the title of Himehiko or not is also unclear. As previously stated, it's unclear if Principal of the School and Head of the Troupe are jobs all Himehiko's serve as part of the title, or if only some do. So it's possible that he held one and not the other or one for longer than the other - i.e. continued running the school after passing the name down or something.
All we get is the name, and that Tancho both knew/knows him and what his preference for incense was/is (and that its different than Shuri's).
It is possible an uncle and/or brother of his also held the position, as there is a nephew of his in Tamasakaza right now, which means Shuri has at least one (almost certainly) older sibling.
18th - Chuza Shuri (中座秋吏), stage name Akihime (秋比女) (Written with the character for Autumn, a kanji from his given name).
Currently the principal who is not well liked by Tamasaka Elders. Still seems to technically be the head of the troupe, but displays no desire to actually do anything onstage and finds his obligations to the Troupe to be a chore. Considers himself decent enough at both dance and singing (apparently singing is something Chuza branch is usually considered weaker in, or so he says).
He is in tension with the board over many things - Chui says the situation around him is “worse than you know,” implying there may be far more going on than anyone tells Kisa, and thus the player.
The Tamasaka Elders seem, from what we’re told, to want to make Univeil into more of a training school for Tamasaka (again?) - and Chuza is resistant to the idea.
19th - In a weekend event, the old lady in Tamasaka who tells Kisa about the 14th seems to state Akihime is the previous rather than current Himehiko (at least in the English). But everyone else seems to refer to him as the current one. Maybe she’s misremembering, maybe she’s got Opinions on his lack of participation and how much the board hates him - which she also mentions. Who knows.
The two candidates for the position seem to be Chui - the Tamasaka branch heir, and already seen as kind of a god, and Shuri's nephew (mentioned in a VERY missable Sou event on 8/1 - who is currently a Hime actor in Tamasaka, who is “treated like a king” as part of the Chuza family there. He apparently doesn’t resemble Shuri much.)
One presumes the Tamasaka board has its factions on which one they support, and, regardless, are preparing them to hold the position more to the boards liking than Shuri.
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