#dean has a type (or at least parallels)

[scripted-downfall]

I'm not gonna say a word, but...

Look, just because you're obsessed with all that Wild West stuff- No, I'm not. You have a fetish!

[incesthemes]

there is interesting johndean subtext and insinuations across kripke era, usually through an antagonist insinuating parent-child sexual violence in order to exert dominance over dean. this type of mockery exploits that ambiguous relationship between john and dean and reminds dean that he never had a normal relationship with his father, and that makes him gross and wrong. it doesn't actually matter in the end whether john was sexually abusive to dean. the core of their relationship was damning enough: dean was made to take the place of john's wife—to comfort john and raise sam—while simultaneously being his son. the codependent nature of their relationship implies the incest that underscores their dynamic. again, this is regardless of what literally occurred between dean and john because there is enough doubt toward the nature of their relationship that multiple antagonists can use it against them.

sonwife, brotherhusband—dean is stuck in a liminal space between family and lover and is unable to put his feet firmly on just one side and instead has to accept both together or abandon both together. he doesn't get to have a relationship with his family without it being simultaneously incestuous. he plays the role of wife to john and mother to sam as mary's replacement; he therefore becomes more than a son and transcends the boundaries of the familial into the incestuous. it's baked into the dynamic and he can't hope to escape the liminality in which he's stuck without abandoning his entire family altogether.

this ambiguous relationship is further acted out with sam, where people perceive them as lovers rather than brothers; where their mutual devotion trumps, neglects, and disallows any other close relationship outside each other; where their physical closeness is viewed through an unusually sexual lens despite no literal sex acts between them taking place on screen. once again dean is stuck in a liminal space, paralleling the ambiguous and uncertain relationship he had with john.

in the end, sex (and sexual violence) is just a symbol of this codependency and uncertainly incestuous dynamic. sex acts in kripke era end up being symbolic: misinterpretations of sam and dean's relationship; accusations of sexual violence; literal, on-screen sexual moments between the brothers and someone else. it's a literary device that highlights the incestuous themes of the show. dean hand-picks women for sam to fuck because it allows dean to be symbolically part of sam's sex life. henricksen accuses john of raping dean because it is a symbol of the unhealthy, codependent relationship dean had with his father. the samulet stays on during sex because sam is symbolically integral to dean's sexual gratification (seen too in the way both dean and cassie in 1.13 appear to kiss the amulet at least once in the dark room). sex is used to signify more than what's literally on the screen, and the connections between the literal sex acts and the blurred lines of dean's familial relationships allow for a reading of incest between both john and dean and sam and dean.

it never mattered whether johndean or samdean had a sexual relationship in the canon because that was never the point. the point is the liminality that permeates the narrative. sam, dean, and john all stand upon a threshold between acceptable and taboo. the point of it all is the doubt and anxiety, the are-they-aren't-they that is never answered. the absence of incest within the text invites the understanding that the incest was, in fact, always there.

[idkiwasntsupposedtobebackhere]

what i would do if i was a gilmore girls writer:

april storyline:

i feel like instead of the april storyline liz could have given birth a bit earlier and and luke and lorelai would have to step in to help raise doula a lot. first of all we’d get to see them with a baby, which is cute. but there’s also a lot of room for conflict in deciding how to handle the situation. aka conflict that makes for good TV (”should we even have kids together if we can’t even do this?”, ”we have to make these decisions together, we’re getting married!” etc.) but isn’t life altering enough to ruin the couple. it also draws parallells to the jess storyline (which was a huge part of the earlier seasons), luke’s established family issues and his earlier disagreements with lorelai which makes luke’s character arc and the show as a whole more cohesive and satisfying. i could see this drama lasting for all of season 6. in the end because these characters have grown, they would actually figure it out somehow. and then they’d have season 7 to settle down and be happy. i actually do love april but they could have made her a young sheldon type of guest character at yale and paris could have developed a soft spot for her or something.

literati in season 3:

so i feel like they wanted to show us that this is rory’s bad boy phase. they made their relationship about dean a lot and most of the episodes centered around them were like ooooh jess did this sucky thing and dean never would have. and i get that maybe they needed to try something new and didn’t want to just recreate the boyfriend storyline with a new guy (aka see how he fits into her grandparents world, saying i love you for the first time etc). they already did the good stuff with dean so they decided to make this rory’s bad decision and only came up conflict to show us. but they didn’t even fully commit bc rory didn’t change with jess the way she did with logan. that was her bad boy phase, literati was always supposed to be something more. so instead of showing how bad of a couple this was compared to dean/rory, they could have drawn different parallels. because dean/rory was not a perfect relationship and they could have shown how in some ways why this is better for rory. what does she want? not her grandparents and not her mom. after all the buildup literati was the audience’s favorite and most anticipated couple, so i really think painting it as an unexpected but positive change of direction in rory’s journey would have been worthwhile.

like show us how when they go on dates they want to do the same things (as opposed to donna reed or rory just watching dean’s games). show us how they both want their alone time and them not calling each other every day because rory wants to study and jess has to work can be an OK thing (as opposed to the infamous 14 calls a day). show us how jess maybe doesn’t fit into lorelai and rory’s flow as well as dean did BUT how that’s also ok because rory is getting older and going off to college so this makes sense. but then also show us some god damn character development and lorelai and jess actually learning to get along (pls make that an entire episode’s storyline actually. have them be funny together and make it emotional). and show us nice scenes with luke, lorelai, rory and jess. where was all of this when they were dating??? nowhere to be seen. although i would have liked for luke not to kick jess out (i will make another post of how i would handle jess and luke’s relationship in season 3) i know it had to happen because milo had to leave. and i wouldn’t change major plot points like that because i like jess’ arc too much. but if they had shown everything i wrote here, literati’s realtionship would have canonically been stronger and jess would have at least told rory about not graduating and his dad showing up and why he felt like he had to go before he went.

dean cheating on lindsay with rory:

actually i would have had lindsay push him in the lake luke pushed jess in but oops plot twist, dean can’t swim

[maggot-monger]

genuine question do you think sam couldve ""stopped"" lucifer by sitting down and having a conversation with him

what a great question that i am obsessed with anon <3 tbh i don't. i do think sam could have changed some aspects of lucifer's perspective by having a conversation (or several conversations) with him, and that might have helped to change lucifer's behavior somewhat, but no i don't think sam alone could have gotten lucifer to stop.

reason #1 is that lucifer's biggest apocalypse-era problems weren't about sam; they were things sam had no control over. lucifer's main original problems are about god and michael: god chose to prioritize humanity, which lucifer didn't agree with and felt insulted by, and then fully smacked lucifer down for lucifer's rejection of that demand and efforts to do something about it. and then lucifer was caged against his will for this, which is on both god and michael as the entities that authorized and enacted that punishment, and now michael is going to fight lucifer to the death. all of that that makes existing very dangerous (and painful, i'm sure) for lucifer, and is entirely out of sam's control. lucifer can't afford to stop — or, at least, probably feels that he can't afford to stop — because michael is going to come after him no matter what (an idea that is solidified in swan song with the walk off the chessboard offer). sam would need to be able to call michael off and probably figure out how to do some family counseling with at least the two of them to really get lucifer to stop, i think. lucifer's apocalypse plan is partially defensive against the threat of death, and is partially a semi-rational revenge effort, and so the solution to making him stop doing the things he's doing, imo, would have to go back to the sources — both the emotional injuries inside of lucifer's mind, and the very serious threats to his life, dignity, and feelings of belonging that lucifer is up against.

reason #2 is that i just. don't think sam gets it about lucifer's damage? and i doubt lucifer could be convinced by someone who doesn't get it, since lucifer's problems stem a lot from not having his perspective understood or taken seriously in the first place. sam and lucifer have a lot in common, but ultimately sam's family cares about and loves him. they haven't always demonstrated that in the best ways, but like...sam got to come back after stanford; lucifer doesn't get to come back after the cage (stanford//the cage is kind of a bad parallel i think so forgive me for that but anyway, those were the big "[character] was gone and isn't anymore" moments for each of them so let's just go with it lol). dean refused to kill sam; michael is fully going to kill lucifer. dean listens to sam — imperfectly, but he listens, and changes his views accordingly on several occasions — michael never allows lucifer the same benefit of the doubt. if sam spent a while listening to lucifer, he might understand this more, and lucifer might feel validated in a way that would probably be good for him, but lucifer will always have "sam just doesn't understand where i'm coming from" to fall back on because john just isn't god and dean just isn't michael and sam just hasn't had the same experiences that lucifer has had. (plus...like...sam is still human...even lucifer's favorite human is still a type of being lucifer has major issues with)

reason #3 is that lucifer is pretty set in his ways about it. lucifer's original beef with humans has a conservative, traditionalist tone: "humans never used to be the priority or even to exist, why should we have to kneel to them now? god and the preservation of god's creations has always been the main thing to do; i don't think it's fair or correct to deprioritize god." god asked for a change that lucifer couldn't/wouldn't make, and i don't think sam has a better chance than god does of getting lucifer to change his ways. plus, lucifer has been at this for a really long time: he's had aaaages in the cage to crystallize his anger and resentment, and i don't think a conversation would be enough to fix that. i don't want to speculate too much about angel psychology, but it's also possible that it's just harder for angels to change than it is for humans, since there's way less of an emphasis on choice and free will for them (i do love that analogy about angels being like trains, in that they're very powerful but they only really go on the tracks they're on). admittedly lucifer does show some ability to change his mind, but idk...i think it would take either something out of sam's control or a LOT of time and effort on sam's part to get him to reevaluate the whole apocalypse. probably both.

reason #4 is just that i don't think supernatural is the kind of show where problems can be resolved with a conversation...sam and dean (and others) often try to do that with each other and it kiind of works, but not all the way, or it causes new problems, or whatever resolution happens doesn't last. so from a meta-perspective i don't think it would work because of how the show is.

and reason #5 is that i don't think sam is equipped to have the kind of conversation with lucifer that would have a snowball's chance in hell to get him to stop that would be needed. sam has his own baggage, and his own unwillingness to connect with certain ideas, and his own limitations, etc. it's a lot to put on sam! it's too personal, and it's too big, and sam isn't perfect and shouldn't be expected to be, and so i just don't think any conversation he would try to have with lucifer would be quite right. BUT this is why i said i think there's a chance that he could get somewhere with lucifer...maybe enough imperfect conversations (if sam had the stamina for it, and lucifer had the time) would make enough of an impact that something could change, even if it didn't resolve the apocalypse entirely.

The Fic Concept i've been thinking about writing foreverrr for spn is a series of attempts at conversations between the two of them about this! i'll never write it but i do love to think about it <3 the ending would probably be kind of ambiguous/bleak/unsatisfying but it would be fun for me at least lol

[mlobsters]

supernatural s9e20 bloodlines (w. andrew dabb)

LOL oh my god at the (quick check to make sure i am actually watching spn) hair color change like in the craft!

the craft (1996) [jesus it came out when i was 16??? what is time]

gonna throw the blond in the knockoff boyd holbrook (corinthian) / spn!brady (i called brady boyd hollbrook with a dash of armie hammer i am very consistent in my thought process lol) pile with bartholewhatever because apparently all slim white blond men occupy one spot in my head

spn s5e20 brady / the sandman - boyd holbrook as the corinthian / spn s9e3 bart

we also have budget tom cruise

another hunter via fridge origin story?

DEAN Agents Bonham and Peart, FBI. We will take it from here.

100% heard bottom and pert and died inside a little bit. what i get for having the captions off to screenshot something

why are sam and dean speaking with southern accents, is this someone's recounting of meeting them (like the lilt up on "profile" from dean, the way sam said "last night" for ex. i'm just... they sometimes, like jackles especially does the again uhgin sometimes and other little bits of accent slip in but not like this)

little bit of andrew garfield maybe? lol good god brain, get it together. this actor was also in the vampire diaries as a character i may or may not have seen, already wasted too much time not gonna get a picture

i have a feeling i'm going to commit about 5% of this episode to memory.

MARGO Yeah, you'll what? David, come on. You don't want this. You ran away to be a human. You always had a soft spot for 'em. Look, you're out. Stay out.

slow blink at the stanford era sam parallel

what the fuck is happening. why are sam and dean acting so weird talking to this nice boy ennis who looks about 18. who also has a post-stanford era sam parallel

DAVID Wow. You are so in over your head. Let me give you the short version. Chicago is divided up between five monster families. ENNIS What? Is that a joke? DAVID Do you hear a laugh track?

i mean, i snorted

just insert me saying wtf is happening continuously

he's got the patented single tear of man pain too!

~and the real monsters were the humans~

they must have really been shooting in chicago because it looks like shameless! lol. have they ever shot on location before?

ENNIS But I couldn't walk away. This is my fight now. Hell, it's a damn war, and I got to start somewhere.

laughing loudly, WHAT IS GOING ON. it's like a spinoff test

ENNIS Who is this? VOICE ON PHONE If you start hunting, the monsters will kill you. ENNIS Dad? Dad?

??????

what did i just watch

from the wiki

This episode was also planned to be a backdoor pilot for Supernatural: Bloodlines, a series set in Chicago and based on the characters introduced in this episode, however it was never picked up by the CW.

losing it. that still doesn't explain why sam and dean were acting so strange and accented (briefly) 😂

when people talk about spn getting worse as the seasons go on, this type of episode is what i was worried about haha at least there was a very specific reason it was Like This

i know i'd heard there was a spinoff that didn't go anywhere but i still am somehow very surprised and confused

not-andrew garfield and ennis were good it was just a completely absurd not good episode

[robbiethompsonlongcon]

so does anybody else see carlos a bit as like deans... ideal self? or self insert? lil bit like deans mary sue (honorific)? like how dean would like to be, or how he wants to perceive himself? or at least the version of dean we perceive together as a fandom's ideal self? not literally, i don't think dean is creating the characters or making the story up diagetically as the New Chuck or anything, but in that way the OG show sometimes does metatextual parallels between two characters who otherwise have no control over the narrative.

carlos is.. beloved by all. disaster bisexual. gender!! so much gender!! genderweird, genderfastandloose, genderplayful. unbound by gender roles entirely. a wonderful tapestry of masculine, feminine, both and neither. truly knows who he is, and is comfortable with that identity. celebratory of it, even! hes got it, hes gonna flaunt it. tastefully slutty. constant quips. sassy as fuck. so charismatic it hurts. talented performer. incredible hunter. frequently pokes at his beloved, sibling-type lorenerd hunting partner about her books. selfless and loving as thee central personality trait, buried under a layer of protective bravado. but also very aware he is very pretty and very talented. competent!!! but knows his strengths, and plays to them. nurturing. free and wild and a little reckless, a little superficial but never in truly harmful ways. if carlos goes or stays, it's because he wants to, he decided for himself, not because anyone told him to. willing to express boundaries. getting therapy. not afraid of feelings. do no harm take no shit. and just. so, so, SO very cool. in every way. even the "nerdy" things about him are cool. he's flawed, imperfect, but that's kinda what makes him ideal. he's just so.. real.

plus, john actively loves him, and loves him for who he is. john leans on him for support, sometimes even takes his advice. and he never tells carlos who to be or how to act. john and carlos are friends, they're FAMILY. john never tries to make carlos more like himself, at least he hasn't so far. carlos can be as silly, as emotional, as nonconforming, as distractable as he wants and john, at worst, breezes past it. lets him be himself. oftentimes john just supports him. john RESPECTS him. sees him as a worthwhile and complete individual, a valuable member of the team. they're like brothers. and why wouldn't dean want to be like brothers with his dad? it's not weird for him, he's already something of a dad to his brother. the boundaries between brothers and fathers and sons are already blurred for dean, and have been since he was four years old. and his relationship with bobby is more fluid than fatherfigure and son, too. bobby is father figure, uncle, coworker, mentor/teacher, childhood friend, war buddy and co-conspirator. in fact, none of deans relationship roles are so clear cut. and for all his complicated feelings about john, and all his traumas.. at his core he really does want johns respect and affection. marys, too, to be fair. carlos has both.

and then there's the story line in 1x08. carlos was given a Mark that forces him to kill, took the Mark in order to stop a dangerous and malicious entity from wanton murder before knowing the full terms and ramifications. the whole team researched the Mark and tried to find ways to get rid of the curse. but when push came to shove, they failed. the entity behind the curse was a lot more powerful than they thought. so carlos's options were either: to do what the Mark and the entity wanted and choose a victim's life to take, satisfying the conditions of the Mark and hope the entity didnt move the goalposts. or to say, nah. the life i choose to take is my own. and for once, that was the right answer!! carlos saved the day and defeated the enemy not by fighting, not by the deaths loved ones or innocents, not by cutting losses or solving for x, but by refusing to play, by sacrificing himself. and just being willing to was enough, he didn't have to actually die. carlos won. by giving up. nobody died because of carlos' decision to take on the burden from jericho, nor his decision to turn it inward. when carlos called the shots, everybody lived.

every time dean tries that, it backfires spectacularly, and usually winds up getting just as many people hurt or killed as the callous and selfish option would have. dean wants to be good and selfless so badly that he often rushes straight to self sacrifice. hes like plan a) ask nicely whoops i forgot to be nice. well that failed OK PLAN B) martyrdom. it's like, every time dean is faced with the trolley problem, his first answer is to throw himself in front of the trolley. as though he thinks the trolley is going to be satisfied and just disappear. or at least this way he won't have to see what happens next.

in carlos' situation, that was the LAST resort, not one of the first. they really were in a kill-or-be-killed, 11th hour hailmary situation. they tried everything else. the trolley was upon them. and carlos chose to die, not out of a wanton desire to prove his worth/worthlessness or martyr himself, but because they DID try every other thing they could first. it was a last resort! carlos DID NOT WANT to die, he wanted to save everybody, including himself! he had thoroughly considered the possibility that he would have to die, but he put that on the furthest backburner. he didn't want to die, but when it came down to it, he said, i won't be manipulated and i wont play god. back me into a corner, twist my arm, i won't do it. fuck you, i won't be your plaything. deans whole thing is that he doesn't wanna be anybodys plaything! not chuck's, not azazel's, not even john's. and he always is. and giving up never works for him. he never gets to choose. hes trapped in the game against his will. he doesn't even want to win the game, he just wants to quit playing. but the rules are that if he doesn't play, that's still playing, and he loses. if he does play, he loses. its rigged. there's no winning and no forfeit for dean. but for carlos, there was both this time. quitting was winning. everybody lives. the ideal outcome, if your name is dean winchester.

carlos is everything dean wishes he could be, or wishes he could believe he was. brave, strong, confident, smart, funny, drop dead gorgeous, selfless, complicated, sensitive, intuitive, comfortable, endearing. and he wins the way dean always wished he could.

[angelsdean]

nah dude i did read it all! very interesting tbh, thanks for indulging me. and taking the time lol. i do slightly disagree with a couple of points but i think that's mostly because i DO sort of view dean as a... i don't wanna say bad person, but definitely not good. and tbh i like him for that. i will say: i do think dean became the angry man in the house, because it definitely wasn't sam or cas; but i think there's a lot of nuance to it too, because for me becoming and being haunted overlap so much for dean specifically.

i do think dean was at least trying to be better, but i think we all sort of agree his journey def got cut short. not to mention i think it's hard to analyze dean as character (and john by proxy) because of the sheer layers spn has; ie is john abusive because of him or because of god; is dean like that because it's inherent (used loosely) or because of god, etc etc etc. not to mention these guys are NOT real people so we can't exactly put real standards on them - plus, they're so far removed from the fictional society as well since they're hunters. just a lot of things go into it tbh. like would dean still be the same if they weren't hunters? is john inherently violent or prone to using that kind of discipline against his sons? (the song remains the same says no, but i still wonder...) is anger inherent to dean or was it all circumstantial?

and i do agree that sometimes people ARE needlesly harsh, but sometimes stuff is just true and. as a deanlover. hes my GUY. i will say that i do think he crosses over into abusive behavior a lot, especially in the later seasons.

about the jack/children comment; i agree that they're isolated, but to me that's still... johncore if you will. and dean is very patient with children, i will give him that.

john&dean nuance is all very kind of complicated and i don't like john much either, believe me, but... dean was still threatening jack and pointing guns at him. to me, at least, that is the same as john and the canonical-not-canonical abuse implications. obviously there are differences, but i think of it like this: even if most of the bad things dean does are mirrors of john, i think the good parts are also mirrors of him. because like you said: john was not a flat character. and he loved those boys. he did very very wrong by them, but he loved them. maybe it didn't count for much in the end, but i think it did.

overall, i think I'm just the type of person to not like woobifying my fav characters (which is completely me, no hate to those who do) so i kinda get the ick when people erase and or defend dean's bad/abusive actions, because ultimately that's a big part of him, yknow?

(there's also the sam&dean dynamic which i havent seen you post a lot about, but in regards to sam and how dean treats him, espcially in the laters seasons... well, i won't bore you with all my thoughts about that can of worms cause then this ask would never end.)

thanks for answering, and making it so long lol. i love reading people's thoughts and i hope you read all this, too.

hi again! sorry i'm about to go to bed so i might not address everything here, but i think it's okay if we disagree on some things and interpret things differently.

i wrote a little bit more abt dean + john here and where i think they parallel and diverge.

i guess for me it's just that i don't think a lot of dean's actions, even the "wrong" ones make him a bad person. i think people can act imperfect and irrationally sometimes, especially in high stress situations, and then later regret and feel remorse for them. and i think dean is suffering through a lot himself and deserves a little grace, compassion, and forgiveness.

i also don't like when characters are woobified. which is why i also am not a fan of people acting like sam (and sometimes cas) are the perpetual victims to dean, as if they also do not make questionable choices and actions that have consequences. or also can just, disregard or fight against dean's actions too. they are not powerless or weak.

lastly i'd say, i don't think dean HAS to be the angry man in the house. you say you think he became the angry man because you don't think it was sam or cas but i guess i'd ask, why do any of them have to be the angry man in the house? why does there have to be one out of the three of them? for me, the angry man IS always john, even when he's no longer there. especially when he's no longer there. he's a ghost and he's in both dean and sam. (early seasons sam was very hotheaded and prone to anger too and paralleled john a lot). i think yes, being haunted by john can overlap with acting like john, but acting like john, reverting back to internalized habits is, at it's core to me, the manifestation of that haunting. that is john. and dean has to fight against that ghost. but anyway, for me, dean can never really become john, and therefore the angry man, because the angry man isn't someone you become. the term has morphed in this fandom but when i use it and talk about it it's in its original context, where it's literally the father figure. first the you grow up with him. then you are haunted by him when he's gone, still feel his presence. and then the cycle continues by inviting another man like him into your home. so in that context, dean (and sam) is the child who grew up w/ the angry man. and the child in the quote is a woman, so there is no becoming the angry man for her. i think, even still, regardless of gender, it's...idk maybe a little cruel? to say that a child that grew up with an angry man in their home is somehow destined to become that same man. that's not what the original quote meant and i don't think it's the framework we should have when thinking about dean and his complex relationship with john and his traumatic childhood.

(also just thinking abt the question of if dean would be the same + angry if they weren't hunters and while we can only take it w/ a grain of salt the show does show us two scenarios of dean not being a hunter: dean smith and djinn dream dean. and both times he seems pretty normal, well adjusted, if not a little sad and lonely)

i think the chuck stuff does complicate things and pose more questions but if we believe that chuck really does like to watch his favorite show rather than micromanage (set up the obstacle course and let them run it as cas framed it), then it's possible not everything was a chuck play-by-play. also i have to say, i personally think all of the young!john stuff we see in spn was massively angel-manipulated. (angels love their illusions and simulations after all). john felt just a little too polished and goody-two-shoes for me in those flashbacks.

anyways, this once again got long, sorry. but i think we might just have to disagree abt some of these things. which is okay!! but i definitely don't think dean is perfect or has never done anything wrong. i just love him despite those things. and when i look at his whole situation + all his past trauma it's very hard for me to blame him or be angry with him for his actions because like, dude is struggling so hard. he needs everything to stop, needs a minute to breathe, and then needs a ton of therapy and maybe some vitamin d and 8 hours of sleep lol

[firefly124]

My phone is slowly processing my fandom shift. It still serves up SPN options for the tag field first, but once I start typing, it's starting to get accurate.

It no longer assumes I mean "Jimmy Novak" for as many letters, for example. Jimmy Novak is progressively falling lower in the list of options in the predictive text.

I was feeling weird about this, and then saw a post on my dash making the case for Jimmy Solidarity as fallen angel. Followed by some Team Rancher fanart.

You know, the ship between this "fallen angel" and his nether-coded tech dude.

It's more of a stretch to parallel Tango to Dean. There's nothing in canon to parallel the familial trauma (though i often see abandonment issues in fic). But Dean is the "just a mechanic" who repurposed a Walkman into an EMF meter. College AUs often have him going into engineering. And he both spent a lot of time in hell and was briefly a demon. Definitely has rage issues.

Team Rancher is, at least in some ways, MCYT Destiel.

Good grief.

[zalrb]

ok this ask might be all over the place, it feels more like multiple asks tbh, but I’m watching supernatural (for the first time) and some of your posts have been coming to mind. the time old “who else could have played damon?”, or “how would you have written damon?” asks. and your breakdown of the brothers’ chemistry compared to defan.

essentially jensen’s portrayal of dean has me comparing to damon on occasion. acting-wise I feel jensen brings out aspects of dean that damon was meant to have. similarly to your comparisons to chuck/klaus/jack sparrow, dean has a charisma, but I specifically feel that jensen manages to pull off damon type humour, and “guy’s guy” “ladies man” type bravado without me wanting to roll my eyes. i think it’s partly because he doesn’t take himself too seriously? supernatural let’s dean be the butt of the joke, without taking away from his character while tvd tries to be like “*sigh* damon being damon”, but without committing? i think it could have really worked to have a through line or bit of everyone be like “*sigh* DAMON” when he’s being “damon” (almost xander like lol). it’s not enough to hold him accountable but it might have worked as levity/acknowledgement of damon within the group dynamic? many of dean’s character flaws align with damon’s, but i feel like it’s better portrayed through dean? i’m just curious what you might think regarding dean vs damon or how jensen might portray aspects of damon?

tbh there’s more that I want to ask/discuss/hear your thoughts on regarding the brother dynamics and dean’s writing compared to tvd, but this feels messy and long enough lmao. I’m only on S2, and i don’t mind spoilers, but I don’t know how my thoughts will hold up regarding the show’s writing so… possibly more supernatural asks to come (if you don’t mind discussing it).

I don't mind discussing it at all, but again, my knowledge of the show is limited, like seasons 1-5 and I could maybe talk a bit about seasons 6 and 7, I just know anons got really passionate when I spoke about SPN before because there's, like, vehement anti-Dean or anti-Sam rhetoric on tumblr -- one anon told me once that they used to like me until I said that I liked Dean when I watched Supernatural so they had to unfollow me -- like I just went through both tags, which was interesting just because of how passionately the fandoms are, and I don't take the show seriously enough to argue that passionately about it so I'm saying this more for other anons than for you.

In terms of Dean/Damon, I have a post that discusses the parallels/similarities between Dean and Stefan actually in terms of character (although Stefan is not as overbearing as Dean, he's just relentlessly sacrificial for Damon and Stefan doesn't have a misogyny problem) and I briefly state how in terms of personality Damon is a less charming Dean

and some other brief posts that reference it

and so Jensen is effortless as Dean and I think that goes a long way, I think people underestimate what an actor at least making it seem like they're effortlessly charming and charismatic does for a character, Dean is anything but a subtle character but Jensen made subtle choices with Dean and that's why he can pull off the 'guy's guy' bravado, the posturing, the humour

and Damon is just infuriating because Ian tries too hard

and when Jensen is "bigger" it's for very specific comic reasons

But I think for me, it's less about Dean being the butt of the joke and more about the way Jensen and the show demonstrate his layers, good and bad, and how things can be looked at from another perspective

so it digs into the darker aspects of his personality,

his fears and insecurities

or his secret desires

because they show what the bravado is trying to cover up and Jensen is good at demonstrating the vulnerabilities that Dean has or the darkness that Dean has and it's more complicated than I kill and/or harm innocent people when women reject me or tell me that I can be a better person, like Damon just did not have to do this

but Elena hugged him and that was too much pressure so, you know, Jessica's gotta die.

And then they do things with his character retroactively that Dean's character was built on from Day One, so now, all the way in season 6 suddenly Damon was protective of Stefan with Giuseppe when they were growing up and did everything he could to protect him from his ire and Stefan never really saw that side of Giuseppe

When that doesn't really add up with what we saw in season 1?

there’s nothing that suggests that Stefan was the golden son while Damon was cast off —  Giuseppe being disappointed in Damon for being a deserter is actually just typical, it would be more surprising if he wasn’t disappointed — but Giuseppe was stern and distant with them both and trusted both of them with the same information and killed both of them in equal measure

whereas from the moment we meet Dean, he's carrying Sam as a child out of a fire,

and again as an adult

it's drilled into his head, into our head that his number one priority, his number one job is taking care of Sam,

which is why he goes to hell for him, not a supernatural limbo with a friend where he thinks he's being tortured by reliving the day he murdered a bunch of pregnant women because his brother was accurate about him and he makes blueberry pancakes as atonement,

no, he was literally ripped to shreds by hellhounds

and sent to hell because he couldn't let Sam die

and comes back traumatized and also with another layer to his personality because it turned out he was really good at torturing in hell so that's more guilt added to the already substantial guilt he carried and again, this protection and love for Sam is also codependence, which is problematic

So, like, his narrative is more complicated than Damon's and Jensen's acting is better and he has a natural charisma.

[scripted-downfall]

My brain has apparently decided that today is the day to Point Things Out. First Dean's tendency to collect cowboy boyfriends, and now the fact that buddy has a type.

Aka, that moment when you realize that Dr. Sexy (on whom Dean has a crush; I'm sorry, I don't make the rules) and Lee (the hunter with whom he was singing on stage with bi lighting and who smacks his ass because yeah, sure, why not) look freaking identical.

[avatar-state-kate]

I have finished season 2 of my rewatch which means it’s time for a season review before I carry on to season 3 (my beloved)

My notes on the production are pretty much the same as they are for my season one wrap up (you can read it here), with the added note that the tv grade cgi is delightfully charming (the explosion in Hunted is so bad but I love it)

The representation of black characters this season, on the surface, would appear to be better- we get two reoccurring black characters with Gordon returning from season 1, and agent Henrickson making multiple appearances. However these characters- with Jake in the two part finale- fall into this trend of “good” characters that are bad- like Gordon was introduced as a hunter so he’s a good guy, but actually he wants to kill Sam and killed his own sister so he’s really a foil for Dean (an evil dean even). Henrickson is an FBI agent who is going after someone we know to be innocent, Dean, so like his “honorable” (I mean he’s law enforcement so we know all that baggage) pursuit is actually evil because he’s preventing the boys from protecting innocent people. And then Jake is an innocent victim of the yellow eyes demon but also he accepts his demon powers and kills Eve and Sam. And while these feel like characters that are maybe supposed to be complex they really aren’t, as much of their “complexity” comes down to how they inform the characterization of Sam and Dean; which for tv that’s normal for minimal characters to do, that’s not the issue the problem is that it means that really these are just characters that appear good but are revealed to be violent at their core which is ….not good. It feels like they added that extra step at the beginning to try and side step the angry black man stereo type but just jumped right into it anyway.

In my last review I discussed how the show is structured around Sam as the protagonist and Dean as the character the story is about, and this season this structure continues as the arcs set up in the first season are resolved. While the primary question establishes in the pilot was where is John, Sam’s plot was why the yellow eyes demon attacked Jessica- why it came to his nursery, what does he share in common with the other psychics. Season 2 gives us the answers to these questions, we learn the source of Sam’s psychic abilities and their purpose- to open the gates of hell. With this being resolved, the problem sam brings into the next season is how will they deal with the consequences of the gate having been opened.

For Dean, season 1 was about establishing his psychological profile- he has a guilt/sacrificial complex, he was parentified as a child and taking care of Sam is his responsibility-these things are John’s fault and at least partially motivated by Deans need to make his father proud/life up to John’s expectations. Season 2 is about testing the limits of these internal motivations, as his need to obey John is at direct odds with his need to protect Sam - John’s dying order is that if Sam goes dark side Dean must kill him. (Guilt/sacrifice complex directly feeds into this as the guilt over being the cause of his fathers death would motivate dean to head his dying wish, however survivors guilt says he should be dead and his sacrificial nature means he’ll gladly die in Sam’s place) The resolution to this conflict is that Dean chooses his need to protect Sam over his need to please John. Entering the next season the fallout of Deans decision gives us season 3’s emotional core- how does dean’s demon deal effect the brothers relationship.

Finally my continued John Winchester content warning. John’s demon deal in 201 and Dean’s demon deal in 222 bookend the season and are meant to parallel each other- establishing John and Dean as foils. (Which the son who tries to emulate you being your foil!)

John makes his deal methodically; he coolly and calmly walks into the meeting, he has terms already planned out and negotiated - he leaves Dean with his final orders and has no reason to believe they won’t be carried out (whether because he think Dean can save Sam or because he’s confident that if he can’t he can force his feelings down long enough to pull the trigger who knows). Dean makes his demon deal in rashly, the scene is shot completely differently with Dean driving like a maniac to the nearest crossroads; it’s an emotional act not a logically planned course of action on a long con revenge plot. He gives ground throughout the deal- where John was ready to walk if not given the right terms (and ensured he had the leverage with the colt) there isn’t anything Dean wouldn’t have given. And where John used his sacrifice against Dean (no he didn’t tell him he sold his soul but he didn’t do anything to hide it either) by giving him a final task Dean literally asks nothing of Sam. He even intends to hide the deal from Sam.

The action for both is the same, a father sacrificing his life for his sons, and yet everything about these two sequences is completely different.

John defenders get a lot of ammo from this season, as John’s demon deal is still a big sacrifice, forfeiting his own life for Dean’s, and in 222 his spirit having escaped does aid his sons. However I don’t think the argument of being a bad dad and whether he loves his sons are the same one, plenty of bad dads love their kids. That John clearly cares is what fuels so much of the emotional conflict, as Sam as the child who defended himself against his fathers ego and unfair expectations is left to wonder if he was too harsh on him- if maybe he was the one who got in the way of them having a chance to get along. And for Dean who did everything he asked- is still doing everything- and now that his dad is out of time realizing that nothing was ever going to be enough and is left only with anger at everything of himself he’d given up in this useless pursuit…… yeah John Winchester whatever his intentions fucked up his kids

[weaksspot]

Hii friend, I saw you’re watching Season8 and wanted to know what you’re overall thoughts on Benny were!

good morning amigo :-) this got long so ->

well first of all i have to preface my opinions on any other characters with the disclaimer that this whole show is a vehicle for Brothers to me so i do view pretty much every other character through the lens of "what does this say about Sam And Dean". lol.

anyway with that context i did like benny! i think he was a fun character and i could see myself enjoying him if he was the protag of his own vampire show. i like a louisiana accent lol and his backstory seems like it would be interesting to build on :-)

but yeah mostly in the context of spn i think its fun to think about the implications of his and dean's relationship on dean and sam's relationship lol, and also more generally dean's relationship with Other Men™. it's unusual to see dean form any kind of bond with anyone, at this point, but especially a pretty close male friendship that he actually let interrupt things with sam for a bit. to me, i see his rship with benny as starting off as a necessity and growing into trying to fill a gap (because that's how i see all his relationships basically) that sam's absence created - then when they get out of purgatory together of course there's an attachment, this guy has been through some specific shit with him that sam has not and the only other person who was there for some of it (cas) isn't around. makes total sense for dean to cling on and naturally i fucking loooove that benny is posited as dean's parallel to sam's relationship with amelia. as a wincest main it's just so fascinating how much friction the presence of anybody else brings to their relationship and them breaking up with their temporary partners to go back to each other???? does a lot for me. lmfao. i think sam was definitely deeply jealous, not strictly of benny as an individual but what he represents for dean, and dean is like.. hurt and lonely and traumatised (again), feeling abandoned by sam and all the more defensive of benny/their relationship because of it - because benny was there when sam wasn't. and i think a lot of sam's pushback is out of guilt as well as jealousy - using the "he's a vampire" shit as a cover, though idk maybe he's also a little bitter about the times dean has made him kill monsters he didn't think deserved it. dean IS a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to benny, in that regard, and i feel like sam struggles with Dean's Behaviour more than benny as an individual lol.

but all that said!!! i would probably enjoy reading fic where dean has a thing with benny and i can def understand the appeal of shipping them for their own sake. i don't have a set hc on dean's sexuality but if i do read him as being into men in general (as opposed to just sam) i would consider benny his type, lol, and i'd definitely be interested in seeing their relationship explored further :~)

so yeah there u go. overall thoughts on benny (so far at least - i'm still working on s8) are: neat guy, i like him <3

[antigonewinchester]

12x08 Season 12 is really trying to play to the contemporary political climate at the time, huh. A Christian President agrees to be possessed by the Devil to bring America to a better place, the month after Trump got elected through the strong support of Evangelical Christians. Not subtle.

This ep also continues the bad British Men of Letters vs. good American Men of Letters plot, especially in how much Ketch is a sinister flamboyant James Bond parody. He’s fun in a… queer-coded evil bisexual Disney villain sort of way. Kind of surprised to see this character type in 2016, but I suppose it hasn’t gone away, just become less common. It actually feels indicative of what seems to be going on in the writing of the later seasons, which has (sometimes) less explicit homophobic, sexist, racist plots but all of these ideas still shows up in subtler forms.

12x09 I’d seen how Ketch was positioned as a foil for Dean this season, but I hadn’t realized the show does the same with Mick and Sam.

Also had heard about Dean’s line about imprisonment vs Hell (“MARY: Why would you-- / DEAN: We were already dead. Being locked in that cell with nothing... I've been to Hell. This was worse. / SAM: At least this way, one of us gets to keep fighting.”) and I know I’m biased, but the writers continually downplaying Dean’s time in Hell is... Particularly because I do think Dabb intended this ep to echo back to Dean’s Hell experience—Dean being the one to “break” first (not Sam) to make the deal w/ Billie, Cas saving Mary but also Dean and Sam by killing Billie > paralleling Dean being in Hell, his breaking, and Cas then rescuing him after. And then in contrast to Sam holding out under torture at the beginning of the season w/ Toni. Leaves a weird & cynical taste in my mouth, I’ll just say that. (Although I will add the fandom takes this thread and runs w/ it to make it about 100x worse than it is in the show.)

12x10 The show has done a lot of “how does one reckon w/ the things one has done in the past and how one has changed” and not always succeeded at it, but this ep and Cas reckoning w/ his past mistakes actually worked for me. Somewhat. The writing is still doing the “I had good intentions so don’t be mad at me!!” pattern, which I will have more thoughts on later. What didn’t work for me, and what I think consistently prevents the show’s writing from being more nuanced around this theme, is how it presents a duality between revenge & resentment vs. forgiveness & letting go. Take Cas’s last line about how if Lily Sunder couldn’t forgive him, she could come find him (implied that she could kill him). It sets up only two choices: hurt people out of resentment or forgive them to let go of that resentment. But that’s a false binary; one doesn’t have to forgive someone to not try to get revenge. While chasing after revenge because of one’s resentment isn’t a good thing, resentment on its own isn’t necessarily bad; it’s just a feeling.

I’m also curious when the writers started intentionally writing Cas as in love with Dean, given 15x18. Some of the framing in the episode (angels falling in love w/ humans, certain shots of Cas’s reactions, Dean as Cas’s “heart”) could be read as subtext about Cas’s romantic feelings for Dean. It’s one of the first times when I’ve thought, huh, ok yeah, I could see an interpretation where the writers were putting the romantic angle in deliberately. Definitely only on Cas’s side, though.

[mlobsters]

supernatural s10e15 the things they carried (w. jenny klein)

DEAN Porn? SAM What? No. l-it's nothing. DEAN Hey, look, no judgement from me. Just, you know, not where we eat. SAM Dude, it wasn't porn. DEAN Okay, "erotica." Whatever. Zip it up.

ha ha. jared what are they doing to your hair. smooth and bouncy

DEAN Sam! I know what you're doing over there, and it ain't porn. Look, man, we have checked every website, okay? We've checked it twice. Sammy, when we work a case, there's always that point when we have to face the truth, right? Even if we don't like it. Well, truth is, there's no way around this. We saw what happened to Cain, okay? I'm not happy about it. But l got to move on. So l'm gonna keep doing what we do while l still can. And l'd like you to be there with me.

it's like a calm and reasonable version of dean's looming deal, and this time he can tell sam he wants him present while he has him. is this growth?

continuing on their trend of cutest babies. what a sweetheart. my eyes glaze over and i get the grabby hands. i would like to hold the baby

appreciate they're trying to acknowledge the mental health and suicide struggles with veterans within the context of their monster hunting story.

BETH My Rick, when he's home and good, I have to kill the spiders, you know? Rick was a kind soul. He never took more life than he had to.

oh no more paralleling to our hero's plight

cole is back, huh. ok? did they pick this story so they could bring him back?

let's just watch this top secret video of the military shooting people, on speaker, at this cafe. sure

random action shot of baby on this cool bridge as they're just... driving to the scene of a crime

okay well. this killer wormy thing reminds me of the xfiles ice episode crossed with wrath of khan ear worm bug thing. and we had that spn one with the black ear goo, eve's... somethings? oof. s6e16 apparently. (rip rufus)

did he say sammy? is that allowed? maybe an exception can be made when you've got a desert monster worm in your digestive tract

LOL dean's face would say otherwise

haha now he's just trying to irk him. little brother vibes (even though the actor is older than jackles)

COLE Mm. So, last time you saw this thing, it turned people into killers, too? DEAN Yeah, except that one did a mind-control number on us. (Starts putting jumper cables on a car battery.) COLE Damn. Day in, day out, you and Sammy saving people from things they just can't wrap their minds around . . . Hell, and nobody even notices it. Hell, at least l get a medal for my efforts. But you . . . I tried to kill your ass. DEAN Yeah, well, good times. COLE I almost took you off the map. Who would be saving me now? DEAN Yeah, well, let's not get too sentimental about it.

i guess all it takes is a freaky worm down your gullet to be like hey you guys provide a really valuable service to the world. this guy is a good actor and i like how he's really giving his all, i just think his character and storylines have been not great, which is unfortunate

at least it's consensual torture i guess. pretty shot framing

screaming "chest compressions" in my mind right now. so usually when we get a character heavy showing them in their best light type episode, it means they're about to die. will i see it coming for once or have they made me paranoid?

DEAN That road? That means giving up. If you think that's where you're headed, then you've got it ass-backwards. You're gonna fight harder than you ever have. You understand?

you listening to yourself, dean?

hot. the way dean snatches his arm back made me laugh

paranoid it is! well, i'm glad dean got a win figuring out how to save cole and redeeming himself a tiny bit more

SAM Hey, Cole. Listen, uh, l, uh . . . For whatever it's worth . . . I really wish it hadn't ended this way. COLE Yeah, me, too, Sammy boy.

you know, some people can get away with way too fond and familiar nicknames with people they don't know very well. cole, in my very humble opinion, is not one of them. what a funny choice.

so the wiki page about nicknames links this article

Cole Trenton refers to the boys as Sammy and Dean-o. He wrote about this character choice here.

so i'm skimming through looking for quotes (i don't read other people's recaps/reviews on episodes, trying to keep it to my personal experience for this first time through) and .... it's in the comments????? is this like. a confirmed source?? LOL. i was too embarrassed to read it past the first few paragraphs. NICKNAME CONTROVERSY

very, youtube apology video

SAM I tried. l did. I tried. l just couldn't save this one. DEAN You know, you can do everything right. And even still, sometimes... the guy still dies.

way to not so subtly bring up your impending doom and freak sam out again. i guess i should appreciate that the mark got ignored for a good chunk earlier because i'd be very very over it by now if it had been Present since whenever he got it

[sarah-dipitous]

Hellsite Nostalgia Tour 2023 Day 159

There Will Be Blood/The Rebel Flesh

“There Will Be Blood”

Plot Description: to defeat Dick Roman and the Leviathans, Sam and Dean must locate three key items that must be retrieved from Castiel, Crowley, and the Alpha Vampire

Would I Survive the First Five Minutes??: somehow, no one died…even with that episode title

Poor Kevin. He doesn’t deserve thisssss

Negotiations with Crowley are always just super fun for the boys…

Ok sometimes you just have to stand in front of an open freezer door, though. Sure THIS time, they’re out of it because of the additives Dick’s company is putting in corn syrup but it’s not ALWAYS that

Poor Dean has to give up fruit pies and start eating actual fruit

Ew. On one hand, I feel bad for this girl…on the other, I kind of don’t trust her

You know, I spent a lot of time comparing Dean to Touya…I’ve overlooked the Dean and Sokka parallels, the meat and sarcasm older brothers

It wasn’t until just now, as the Winchesters pulled into Missoula, MT, that I remembered that Hank Green (who hit send on a tweet at the exact time I was typing his name) once tweeted about the time spn took place there (even if it was actually in Canada. I don’t really know)

Yeah I knew not to trust herrrrrrr. She’s totally in league with the alpha vampire

Oh nooo this Bobby situation only keeps getting worse. He’s now possessed a poor girl…

Oh. The Leviathans want EVERYONE except humans gone…and humans only get to stay as a source of food. Coolcoolcoolcoolcoolcoolcool

Oooo, they took Edgar off the playing board (for now at least)

So Crowley goes to see Dick and gets stuck in a Devil’s Trap. Great job

Mmm no. His smile’s so creepy

“The Rebel Flesh”

Plot Description: a solar tsunami liberates doppelgängers from their human “originals” in a factory

I’m so sorry to this show but I can’t hear Supermassive Black Hole without thinking Twilight. It’s not a choice, my brain is just like this…

Things never go well when the Doctor runs into a team of top scientists, do they? Thinking about the crew that met the devil, waters of mars, the ones that met the Silurians, and now this team and “the flesh” And I mean that it’s almost never fully outside forces. So many of them make terrible decisions

Is it in these episodes that they confirm the Amy we’ve been with at least all season is a fake? It would make sense

I’ve forgotten how many of the scientists are the originals and how many are the doppelgängers…

(I’ll say it nearly every time, but dw just doesn’t do two parters all that well…)

Oh…but Rory can really feel for the doppelgängers in a way no one else here can yet…he’s BEEN not really him before

Oh they’re really trying to take over the originals’ lives, and you can’t REALLY blame them

The weird amount of…slight body horror is really off putting

It’s kind of shitty that only the female scientists got replaced at first…just.

This is a whole mess.

Man…how does the Doctor keep finding the WORST humans to have in these extremely tense situations?

[littlewomenpodcast]

Louisa May Alcott Wanted To Get Married

According to Alcott scholar Susan Bailey, Louisa was a natural-born storyteller who often exaggerated things. Here is a quote from Alcott scholar Daniel Shealy, who has done some extensive research on Louisa´s views about egalitarian marriage.

Listen Full Podcast Episode:

"In her personal letters, Alcott often made fun of the marriages in part two of Little Women, which she wrote to her friend Elizabeth Powell, in March 1869. That Jo should have a literary spinster. However, despite her preferred ending, Alcott declared "publishers won't let the author finish up as they like, but insist on having people married off in a wholesome manner, which much afflicts me". In the same letter, she even claims that she expects "vials of wrath to be poured out upon my head" when she does not marry Jo to Laurie. Did Al specifically craft her letters to Powell believing that her friend would appreciate the more independent, self-reliant version of Jo March?" Powell, nine years Alcott's junior. Was both a Quaker and as early age as 16, an activist in abolition. Like Alcott, Powell had also taught in school in the early 1860s. She then trained with Dr Di Lewis, the physical culture advocate, who operated a school for girls in Lexing. In the mid-1860s, in April 1864, she came to con to gymnastics, which Alcott and her older sister Anna, joined. A year later, Powell became the gymnastics instructor at Vassar College. Founded in 1861 as the first institution of higher education for women in the United States. In 1869, the year part two of Little Women appeared, Powell, still unmarried at the time (she would later marry in 1872 and eventually in 1890 became a Dean of Women's at Swarthmore College) was clearly the type of woman who Alcott admired. A strong, independent activist and champion of women's rights and racial justice. Did Alcott think Powell would approve her insistence that Jo March, not marry and that the author only acquiesced to her editor's desire? No known letters among the Alcott-Niles correspondence suggest that the publisher had any say on the matter. The marriage decision was all Alcott´s".

I studied Elizabeth Powell´s life a bit more. Her life was surprisingly similar to the book Jo. She wasn't a writer, but there are parallels. Based on what I have found, her marriage with her lawyer husband was a happy one. She was devoted to the educational work and in the same way, as Jo does, she promoted co-education, for both male and female students. She became a dean of the university. Same way as Jo who becomes the matriarch of the Bhaer Academy in "Jo´s Boys".

Like the Powells, Jo and Fredrich had two sons together. This idea that Jo is a character who is only based on Louisa is not entirely true. Meg in Little Women gets often dismissed as being the least ambitious of the sisters when in real life, Anna Alcott started the school. There were many women who Louisa admired that she has inserted into Jo's character and many Alcott scholars believed that in Friedrich and Jo, Louisa created her own ideal relationship.

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