#don't conflate zionism with judaism

[lovelydrusilla]

Nakba Memorial Protest / Frankfurt, Germany / May 2024.

[malfunctioning-robot]

I want to preface by saying I'm not Jewish or Muslim, so I can very well be saying something dumb or missing the point, but I think people need to stop getting offended and immediately bring up antisemitism when someone points out a big corporation/business supporting the genocide in gaza or being pro-Israel/zionist.

I'm already seeing this a lot and I know "Jewish control the world" is a legit harmful and believed antisemitic remark, but it's not antisemitic to correctly point out a big business being zionist and you're even possibly doing more harm by having that be your to-go thought.

The conflict right now is not even "Jews vs Muslims." It's not about religion at all and that's a huge way that zionists are trying to frame it as, so that the conflict seems "complex."

Also the reason why a lot a powerful and big companies support Israel is because they have economic interests related to the region and also because the US is very pro-Israel in general. It's not "Jews running the world," it's "the creation of Israel was literally thanks to powerful colonist countries like the US which defend it economically via corporations that finance military operations and weaponry."

[zerhysie]

imagine sending this to me about a post about a little girl being brutally killed amongst her already dead family like you think it "can" be a peaceful ideology? but is it? is it right now? is the peaceful zionism in the room w us right now

[skeletonmob]

Transcript & Alt ID: Poster labeled 'Israeli Propaganda' that details various types of propaganda tactics, each with a color coordinated label.

Greenwashing - Israel appeals to environmentalism in order to deflect attention from or mask its harmful practices. EX: JNF tree-planting campaigns of invasive species.

Redwashing - Israel appeals to the image of progressive politics on order to deflect attention from its harmful practices. EX: Historic exclusion of non-Jewish workers from unions

Bluewahing - Israel uses humanitarian aid campaigns in order to deflect attention from its harmful practices. EX: 'Water infrastructure upgrades' that divert 6x more water to settlers than to Palestinians

Pinkwashing - Israel appeals to LGBTQ+ rights in order to deflect attention from its harmful practices. EX: blackmailing queer Palestinians into being informants under the threat of being outed to their communities. (transcriber's note: I don't feel this is a good example of pinkwashing, I think that mentioning that Israel has a habit of promoting itself as a safe haven for LGBT+ folks, and promoting Palestine solely as homophobic, in order to justify their actions is a more appropriate example)

Purplewashing - Israel appeals to women's rights and feminism in order to deflect attention from its harmful ideals. EX: Israeli Occupation Force drafts woman to military service by law to participate in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

Faithwashing - Israel appeals to interfaith dialogue in order to deflect attention from its harmful practices. EX: conflating Zionism and Judaism in order to accuse all criticism of Zionism as anti-semitic.

[bitegore]

Zionists want you to conflate Judaism and Zionism. Zionists want you to believe that Judaism cannot exist without Zionism and that all Jews are Zionists. Zionism would have Jews believe that a Jewish state is the only way that they can be safe from antisemitism and will point to any instance of antisemitism as proof that Zionism is the solution- so Zionism wants gentiles to be antisemitic in their support of Palestine. They want you to conflate all Jews with Zionism and the state of Israel, and they want you to treat all Jews regardless of political affiliation as the face of Israel. Antizionist Jews exist, and incidences of antisemitism ostensibly acting against Zionism will not help dismantle the forces propping Zionism up.

Don't do their work for them.

[zonatcannibalism]

even if you don't conflate judaism with zionism\ think all jews are zionist etc and you really are only opposing zionism and not jews and you do that without perpetuating antisemitic tropes you HAVE to understand that to most jews, zionism is just a new word to describe a thing we've been doing for centuries. ideologically, zionism is a lot of things, but most jews i know agree that its a jewish ideology made by jews for jews based on values that have been key parts of judaism for centuries. jews didn't suddenly decide they wanted to colonize palestine when the term zionism was coined: some of the most famous jewish poetry, art and literature is about missing eretz yisrael and jerusalem. we have entire holydays centered around the plants growing in israel. jerusalem is mentioned in weddings and most major holidays. there are many, many ways to be against zionism and not be antisemitic, and that is because jews very rarely agree with each other. there is religious antizionism, antizionism specifically targeted at the zionist political movement, leftist antizionism, all sorts. but as a goy, you just CAN'T claim zionism is just judaism's evil step cousin that has nothing to do with judaism and is just here to be evil. or even worst "conflating zionism and judaism is antisemitic". ma'am your name is haley you are a white xtian 17 year old from california who only ever talked to one (1) jew in your entire life. that jew was a JVP member. you are not an expert on judaism and what is the "correct way" for thousands years old jewish ideas to be translated into modern political movements. you don't get to say weather zionism is a part of judaism or not, and you absolutely DON'T get to call jews nazis for thinking it is. shut up and drink your double mocha frappuccino you didn't buy from starbucks bc you think thats how your gonna end the occupation and leave jewish people alone. we have enough to deal with even without you deciding if we earn our right to live or not based on our relationship with a major aspect of our culture.

[etz-ashashiyot]

Okay let's put this stupid semantics argument to bed right now:

Judaism is not Zionism, obviously, because Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people and Zionism is an amalgamation of political beliefs supporting the idea of Jewish self-determination in eretz Yisrael. They are two different things. Obviously.

However, you cannot separate Zionism from Jewish identity and Judaism, because Zionism is fundamentally a political ideology created by Jews, for Jews, and about Jews.

You also can't separate Jewish identity and Judaism from Zionism, because while the notion of statehood is contemporary, the longing to return to eretz Yisrael and end the Jewish people's exile has been a foundational part of rabbinic Judaism since 70 CE.

Bottom line: they are two distinct concepts that overlap substantially and you cannot talk about them as if Zionism is totally foreign and unrelated to Judaism or vice versa in good faith, but neither can you 100% conflate them.

This is like when pregnancy discrimination was allowed on the grounds that not every single woman is pregnant or will become pregnant (and also we know that not everyone who becomes pregnant is a woman) and therefore it's somehow not sex discrimination and you don't have to factor in misogyny and sexism into the conversation.

You can't talk about Zionism without talking about Jews, Judaism, and antisemitism, but also, if you bring up Israel/Palestine every time a Jew is publicly Jewish, guess what that makes you? (Hint: It's antisemitic.)

[daphneblakess]

it's telling, how hard zionists are clinging to the "israelis are the real victims" narrative. the endgame of zionism is the conflation of it with judaism. i vividly understand the jewish anxiety of having to exist in an antisemitic world. but what kind of blinders do you need to have on, to see the statistics and human carnage streaming out of palestine and think it is in any way proportionate to what was, ultimately, one day of israel experiencing what they've done to palestine for upwards of seven decades? because if you admit that it's not, that we are not righteous for leaving what palestinians survive with that same lifelong and generational fear, then it all falls apart. but all the jews across the world who have very vocally put ourselves on the line to say 'not in our names', we don't fit into your narrative so we don't count, do we? there are videos of jews in israel who dissent to state-sponsored terrorism being beaten in the street by police officers. i get the feeling they're not the victims who zionists are wringing their hands over.

it breaks my heart to see thousands of years of jewish tradition reduced to self-victimization in the name of perpetuating the same atrocities done to us, all with the backing of colonialist propaganda and war machines that won't hesitate to throw jews under the bus as soon as the notion crosses their minds to. they already are! every dollar that pours into aiding israel's genocide of palestine is one that could fund actual combat of antisemitism, which is spiking, if anything, because of gentiles who've bought into the false mentality that every one of us condones israel's monstrosity. zionism hinges on every single jew falling in line to act out of perpetual fear and retaliatory existential terror, and the moment that some of us say no to that, it undercuts the very foundations zionists stand on. and they have a collective meltdown.

[vaspider]

If your first instinct is to respond to someone talking about how people are conflating Zionism and Judaism in dangerous ways with 'why am I seeing Zionism on my dash,' you are part of the fucking problem, asshole.

My old shul just finished installing concrete blockades around the playground just in case someone decides to try to drive a truck across the playground while the kids are out there. Every synagogue I know has added more guards, more security. There was a car crash tonight outside a synagogue a friend of mine attends, and for a second when everybody could see one of the cars veering off the road toward the synagogue, the thought went through their head, essentially, oh, it's starting.

And the fact that posts like this, posts made by people who are tired and scared because they're being held to account for the actions of a country halfway around the world, over which they have no control whatsoever, posts of people saying 'please fucking listen to us,' are literally being held up as evidence that we're Bad Evil Zionists who should be purged? That's a fucking problem.

Since 2016, 2017 -- basically since I became Jewish -- I have made it a policy never to talk about I/P online because I don't actually think it's productive, and I have more productive shit I can be doing. The fact that I don't talk about it has been held up as ironclad proof of my opinions.

Think about that. The fact that I said 'I will not tell you what my opinion is because I think the way this is handled online isn't productive' seven years ago is held up as absolute proof of what I think now, and that those opinions are the somehow magically opinions that people who already think I'm a piece of shit want me to have so they have more reasons to say 'yeah, spider sucks.'

I didn't even have the same pronouns seven years ago. I lived 3000 miles away from where I live now. I own a company. I have two wives. But you're right, I must think the exact same thing about this thing that lets you hate me without thinking, 'am I the baddie?'

It's so fucking transparent. Zionist is now just "Jew I don't like," and Zionism is "any act Jews take which makes them visible in ways that don't involve groveling or dying." It's fucking pathetic. If you have spoken to a Zionist, you're a Zionist. If you have ever expressed any opinion about Israel that isn't 'it and all Israelis should be of course set on fire,' you're a Zionist. If you express no opinions at all about Israel, you're a Zionist. If someone already doesn't like you for whatever reason, they'll decide you're a fucking Zionist, and then that's all they need. Nobody ever questions it when they're told a Jew online is a Dirty, Evil, Zionist, and if you say you're not, actually, then you're a Lying, Dirty, Evil, Zionist.

Like, could y'all be any more transparent?

[callimara]

So I want to start off this by saying that I also fully, 100% support the freedom of Palestine, and I don’t want this to one off like I do. I know that saying “don’t be antisemitic while talking about Palestine” is a big Zionist dog whistle, but… that doesn’t mean we can just be antisemitism in our defense of Palestine, y’know?

Israel does not have control over mainstream media. They have some control over what information comes out of Palestine, yes, but they don’t control the mainstream narrative, and saying that they do is was to close to the old “Jews control the media” conspiracy theory for my comfort.

The reason that mainstream narratives support Israel is because America (which is deeply antisemitic and islamophobic on its own) profits off the continued existence of Israel, and any country allied with America is going to be motivated to agree with america on international issues like this. Israel has very little influence on it. Israel hold very little power outside of what western governments give it.

Anyways, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, but we don’t have to be antisemitism to get there.

This is so important because it's absolutely right. What Israel is doing doesn't make it ok to be antisemetic or incite hate on Jews because Israel does not reflect on all Jews.

A lot of Jews, including many Holocaust survivors, have been protesting for Palestine's freedom because this isn't a war of religion. What Israel is doing violates MANY Jewish laws and many of the politicians don't give two shits about Judaism unless it's to claim indigeneity so that they can justify their apartheid regime and colonialism. Because the fact is, Zionism is completely secular.

Part of Israel's marketing scheme to sell the idea of The Jewish Homeland to Jews and get them to immigrate and settle in Palestine is conflating religion with race and erasing the unique identities of Jewish people from different cultural backgrounds. What they love to do is claim that every Jewish person in Israel are Mizrahi (and thus have always belonged there), when many of them are actually Ashkenazi. But they don't want to acknowledge that, because it makes them seem less indigenous. (And perhaps that's why ancestry tests are so heavily regulated in Israel. Like, you are NOT allowed to take one just for fun.) Let's also not forget that if you are not Ashkenazi (like Yemeni or any other non-European Jew, for instance) you are more likely to be marginalized.

So in a way, they are erasing their own cultural identities in order to justify their colonialism, which is fucked in itself.

And regarding Israel's dominance in mainstream media, yes, this person is also correct. Western media is heavily biased towards Israel because their countries directly profit from Israel's existence as a western foothold in the middle east. I especially love the statement, "Israel hold very little power outside of what western governments give it." because it's true, and it makes it even more fucked up because the western governments COULD have said something about what Israel is doing. They COULD have stepped in and stopped all of this from happening.

But they chose not to.

Which means they should ALL be held accountable for what is happening in Palestine, not just Israel.

[khizuo]

many tumblr zionists couch their support for israel in posts where they discuss antisemitism, specifically "antisemitism on the left" (by which they mean — not being niceys enough to their settler colonial ideology and state). they try to conflate anti-zionist critiques of state, media, and corporate support for settler colonialism (which has absolutely nothing to do with judaism or jewish people and is only concerned with analyzing the structures of western imperialism) as "leftists spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories". they try to shut anti-zionists up by saying that "only jewish people (by which they mean zionists) can have the final say on what is/isn't antisemitic", despite the fact that there are many, many jewish anti-zionists who vocally discuss how zionism is rooted in and perpetuates antisemitism. don't fall for this shit i'm begging you. if you see any post that tries to frame the pro-palestine movement or "online leftists" as uniquely suspect of antisemitism, it's more likely than not a dogwhistle. please don't spread those posts.

[redditreceipts]

REMINDER TO JOIN A TRADE UNION!!!

Before you tell me to "get a hobby", please think about how much of my life I can show you on here. I am politically active offline. I would share that with you, but I can't, because I'd get doxxed in 0.2 seconds. So the only thing you see about me is my blog. But just because that's the only thing you see, it is not the only thing that exists.

here is a post about what I believe regarding gender and sex.

This blog supports detransitioners, desisters, people with gender dysphoria and people who suffer from gender dysphoria and decide to medically transition, as long as they don't suggest that they are now a member of the opposite gender / sex and as long as they stay out of single-sex spaces.

also please note that while I am pro-Palestine, this is no invitation to be antisemitic and people conflating Judaism with Zionism can go fuck themselves.

If you have any concerns, ideas for posts, questions etc., I am happy to talk to you in my DMs!

this blog is crypto-friendly :)

(also, you should subscribe to my back-up blog @redditreceipts-2)

[bemusedlybespectacled]

Hi I also don't take anons at face-value, but I'd you search "Palestine" on vaspider's blog you see posts talking about Israel's "right to exist" and how supporting Israel is embedded in Jewish culture. They're not a bloodthirsty zionist, but they still overtly support the occupation of Palestine

Okay, thank you, this is stuff I can actually investigate! (And I did, I spent a good several hours reading their blog and then getting sidetracked by Wikipedia)

So, I searched "israel," "palestine," "colonial" and "right to exist" (that last one didn't bring up anything relevant) on their blog. What I have seen:

a bunch of posts saying essentially the same thing that I did (that "Zionist" isn't a hugely useful term without explanation or context and is often used as a dogwhistle)*

at least one post explicitly against Netanyahu

several posts about how discussing Zionism/criticism of Israel can end up antisemitic and how to avoid being antisemitic while still criticizing Israel

a shitload of posts about not conflating Judaism with Zionism/Israel (e.g. conflating celebrating Hanukah with being in support of Israel)

at least one post about how defending Israel is not the same thing as defending antisemitism and how focusing on Israel doesn't help people in the US

a post about an Israeli teenager getting disciplined for being pro-Palestine (presented as a bad thing for the school to do)

several posts in support of Israel in the sense of agreeing that Jews are indigenous to the area (therefore the creation of Israel was not a settler-colonial endeavor, but rather diasporic people returning) and that Israel is necessary to avoid white supremacy in the diaspora

at least one post about how the Jewish experience in the diaspora differs significantly from that in Israel and how that can mean Israeli people don't get why diasporic Jews are offended by certain things that they aren't

and a shitload of posts about being Jewish generally

*A lot of these posts discuss what Zionism can mean, which can include the right of Israel to exist. At least one of them included the idea that it is possible to be a Zionist and still support Palestine, because of the different things Zionism means to different people.

Most of the posts explicitly about Israel (both positive and negative) were from 2017ish and earlier. I think it's fair for me to say that I don't feel comfortable trying to divine what their position is now based on evidence from over seven years ago.

I have not seen any posts suggesting that supporting Israel is embedded in Jewish culture. If anything, I have seen posts suggesting the opposite.

I agree that it's shitty to ask Jews about their thoughts on Israel because they are Jewish, harass them because of the belief that being Jewish automatically means they support Israel, or assume that any practice of Judaism is a signal of support of Israel, for the same reason it's shitty to ask Muslims about their feelings about ISIS or assuming they are terrorists because they are practicing Islam.

I also agree that criticism of Israel can be co-opted as antisemitic rhetoric, in the same way that valid criticisms of capitalism or corporate control of media can end up being co-opted as antisemitic rhetoric.

The much trickier questions are whether Israel is or isn't a settler-colonial state (and whether the creation of Israel was a regaining of previously-colonized/conquered lands by indigenous people), whether it has "the right to exist," and the necessity of it both at the time of the Holocaust and currently as a haven against antisemitism.

I'm going to be very clear here: I think it is completely okay to debate those things. I think it's perfectly fine to say something like, "I think that the creation of Israel was necessary at the time, but that doesn't justify the Nakba" or "the creation of Israel was an act of colonial violence, but any solution needs to address the very real concern that Jews have about being genocided" or even "I think Israel is/isn't a settler-colonial state for XYZ reasons" (not that these are things that I have seen vaspider say; they are hypothetical examples).

For me to be comfortable with someone's differing political opinions, I at least need to have a basic shared floor of values with them (this is why I continue to follow anarchists even though I am a filthy statist). For me, that floor is thinking that what Israel is doing right now isn't a genocide, or is in any way justified or understandable, or that antisemitism is in any way justified in response. How it should be stopped is a different question than if it should be or not, and I can only engage with the former.

Things like whether Israel's existence is justifiable – which then get into discussions of how it was formed and why – are relevant to both the "how" and the "if." If it is in furtherance of the "how" discussion (e.g. "we agree that the situation should stop, but how will we do that given XYZ"), I'm okay with that. If it's in furtherance of "and this is why I think the current genocide is okay," then I'm not. And to be clear, this goes in both directions: "I think Israel is a settler-colonial state because the driving force behind it was the Holocaust, which didn't actually happen" is also crossing a line for me. It's the purpose of the argument being made, not whether the argument is being made at all, that I care about.

From my review – which I think was pretty deep, but Tumblr never shows you everything when you search for stuff and it is 100% possible that I missed something or just failed to catch some kind of subtle insinuation – I get the sense that the purpose of the discussion is about the "how," not the "if." I recognize that not everyone draws that line the same way that I do, or has a very different floor than I do: I'm talking about me personally, not what I think other people should have.

I am genuinely thankful to this anon - I realize that might come off as snarky, but I'm being completely serious. Had I found stuff that crossed my internal line, I would have made a different call, and I wouldn't have gone looking in the first place if I didn't have something to look for. I can't make a call either way if I have nothing to go on at all.

[disappointingyellowhighlighter]

I know nobody needs to hear my opinions about the Israel Palestine conflict but I have a lot of thoughts and nowhere to put them so here goes:

1. What Israel is doing is wrong. Israel as a state should not exist, especially in the way it does now.

2. Innocent Israeli citizens exist. Jews do have ancestral ties to the land and should be allowed to exist there without having to be conflated in belief with a genocidal government. Not all Israeli citizens are Jewish, and they, too, deserve to exist there without having to be conflated in belief with a genocidal government.

3. Hamas is a terrorist organization.

4. If Israel puts down its weapons before Hamas does, innocent Israeli citizens will die.

5. Every country on earth should be calling for a ceasefire. From both sides. Yes, the sides are not on equal footing. But BOTH must put down weapons for peace to be an option.

6. Western leftists do not understand how to be anti-zionist and anti-israel without being antisemitic. It is not a fine line, but it is one that is easy to cross and many do not listen when they are called out for it. Please listen when this comes up. Please check the biases of the sources you consume media from. Check how they are funded, check where they are located. By all means read the articles but be aware where they are coming from. I know it's easy to disregard this argument, and it may even be made erroneously, but please evaluate what has been said and think about why a Jewish person may have found it offensive. If it is TRULY just because there was criticism of Israel and/or Zionism, disregard the argument. Additionally, please understand the conditional whiteness given to white Jews. Telling us we have white privilege without understanding conditional whiteness and the history of whiteness as a classification, especially in regard to how it affects Jews, is ignorant at best and antisemitic at worst. Yes, many of us have white privilege. Until we are openly Jewish.

7. A lot of people who are calling to free Palestine have not thought past that. I agree. Free Palestine. But what happens after? Are former Israeli citizens expected to leave? If so, where? If not, do you expect the two groups to work out their own peace? Or should other nations be involved? If former Israeli citizens are not given a place to go and start getting attacked by the new government, what then? How will you respond if that is what happens? Please consider these questions. I know you don't think anything bad will happen, but think about what hamas already did, think about how Jews are treated historically, and think about what the plan would be going forward after the dismantling of Israel.

8. A lot of people think violence against Israeli citizens is justified. A lot of people think Hamas is in the right. I cannot change your mind. But this IS antisemitic. If you believe that Hamas was in the right for what they did to civilians because they are citizens of Israel, the only country in the world that's national religion is Judaism, you are antisemitic. If that statement upsets you, re-evaluate your position and why you feel the way you do.

9. Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza under the guise that they are somehow taking down Hamas. They are lying. Israel will claim any man killed by the IOF in Gaza is Hamas. They are lying. Israel is actively committing a genocide and if you are not against that genocide you are wrong.

10. Many diaspora Jews, because of this conflict, feel unsafe. We would be crazy not to. Any move on Israel's part always results in a rise of antisemitism worldwide, because people conflate Israel with Judaism. They are not even close to the same. I've seen appalling images of IOF soldiers using a combat knife as a yod, holding it up to a Torah. That is disgusting. But enough people conflate Israel and Judaism that diaspora Jews are affected by anything Israel does. Almost always negatively. If you are calling diaspora Jews selfish or saying we are claiming false victimhood, you are being antisemitic and you are using a genocide to justify it. If that statement bothers you, re-evaluate.

13. There is nuance in this situation. And if you refuse to acknowledge that nuance, I can assume it is for antisemitic reasons. And if that statement bothers you, re-evaluate.

11. I implore people to study Jewish history. See WHY Israel exists in the first place. You do not need to have empathy for Israel, I suggest you actively have none, but please please have empathy for Israeli citizens and diaspora Jews alike.

12. American support of Israel comes from a place of antisemitism.

14. All of these opinions can and should exist in tandem. Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel, Gaza is an open air prison, and Israel needs to stop bombing Gaza immediately. Innocent Israeli citizens and diaspora Jews should not be blamed for the actions of the Israeli government.

15. Free Palestine.

[werewolfbneimitzvah]

I get so tired of implications that the reason the genocide of Palestine is bad is because jews aren't from there (we are, though not totally the same way as palestinians) or that the land was never called Israel (it was), or that it's a problem that many of the Jews currently living there have gone there in the past century or so (immigration isn't bad actually, and on top of that the reason many jews are there is because of people doing pogroms/genocides to us, and at this point many, many israelis were born there and don't actually have any kind of citizenship somewhere else, HELLO), like none of those claims are actually good or helpful. The problem is actually the ongoing mass displacement, the kidnappings and murders and tortures and dehumanizations, the oppression, the re-naming of the land against the wishes of so many of its inhabitants, the destruction of homes and culture and infrastructure, the starvation, the denial of medicine and medical care, the propaganda and lies, the insistence that all criticism is antisemitism, the purposeful conflation of zionism with judaism, the insistence that self-determination for jews must come at the cost of the self-determination of palestinians and thus must be done via colonization, the destruction of the land, the endless cruelty, and what all this adds up to, a genocide. This is all horrible on its own and needs to be stopped, we don't need to make up fake shit or misrepresent real shit on top of that.

[archaeocommunologist]

stop speaking over members of a community you know nothing about. i could educate you on why all your assumptions and conclusions are sideways but its not worth the effort. don't butt into an intracommunity conversation; that is basic etiquette. this isn't because you're ontologically incapable of understanding, it's because at this moment, you lack the context and knowledge to understand the nuances. your frame of reference is christianity (this isn't an insult, it's a description: you compared the situation to christianity). nobody quoted scripture. you're the one who introduced the word idolatry to the conversation. the thing is that yes the jewish communities has boundaries and some of those are religious. it's literally 0% your business or your place to have a take on it. stay in your lane. and go read a book about judaism so that next time you actually understand what you're talking about.

These are extremely tired non-arguments, and I'm pretty sick of reiterating that I am not swayed by crude appeals to identity. If I am wrong, demonstrate that I am wrong. As a matter of principle, I ignore silencing tactics such as the ones you are engaging in here. "It is never appropriate for an outsider to talk about an intracommunity issue," wrong. "You lack context and knowledge to understand the nuances" wrong, and you've not even attempted to make the case. "Your frame of reference is Christianity" true, but not relevant. If the comparison is bad, demonstrate that it is bad. "Stay in your lane and read a book-"

See, that's the problem isn't it? Because I have read books. I've read and listened to plenty of Jews and gentiles, Zionists and anti-Zionists. It is primarily by listening to Palestinians and anti-Zionist Jews that I have come to the political position I hold. You think, because we disagree, that I must be uninformed but that's pure cope. The real issue is that you consider any Jew who disagrees with your Zionism to be a fake Jew, so definitionally, anyone who chooses anti-Zionism must not be "listening to Jews." This is very convenient for a Zionist like yourself, but no one else is obligated to accept your framing. I completely reject your conflation of Zionism with Judaism.

And come on, read the fucking thread. @gehe-lihiyot-androgynos-varda accused @lasttarrasque of "avodah zarah," which translates to English as "idolatry" because that's what it fucking is.

This is a particularly irritating form of special pleading. "Oh no, when Jews quote 2nd Century religious law, they're doing it in a progressive, special way that has nothing to do with Christians or Muslims quoting religious law. When Christians or Muslims do it, that's repressive. When Jews do it, it's actually really fun and cool and progressive." Fuck you. The same portion of the Talmud that prohibits idolatry, also prohibits a Jew from assisting in the birth of a Gentile or nursing a Gentile child. You agree with that one as well? If not, why the fuck should we listen to the other racist, Dark Age prohibitions in that text?

If you want a conversation, come off anon and have one. Otherwise get thee gone.