#dude isn't evil but he is an antagonist

[purgetrooperfox]

okay I keep seeing people talking about how bi-han slander takes the form of "he is evil beyond redemption, his actions can never be justified no matter what, he is a villain" but most of the gross misinterpretation I see on this site is more "he did absolutely nothing wrong and could never be mean to kuai liang and canon is wrong actually and if you disagree then you just don't Get Him like I do 💅". which I thought was a joke at first??? why are y'all trying to take away his teeth??? enough character analysis posts that are just bending him into the shape you want him to be. please. he's misguided, yes, he's also a bitch. sure he wants what's best for the clan but he's also so selfish that he thinks Everyone Else is wrong and refuses counsel. he's ambitious to a fault and made a stupid ass decision. OWN IT

[hadesknockedupintheunderworld]

"Villain arc!!" and the character in question is just trying to protect himself and create himself a home

[idiosyncraticrednebula]

People on social media will get mad as hell and call you problematic if you enjoy a villain for being, well, a villain.

[jess-the-vampire]

I genuinely don't understand the gripes a few people have with how Belos was handled in the finale. "Dont just brush him off as being evil" Well, why the fuck not? Dude wasnt born evil but he purposefully chose destruction and death at every possible opportunity for 400+ years. Nothing about his backstory would have made any impact on the characters affected, because its not an excuse, its not even an explanation! Caleb had the same childhood and he loved the Boiling isles. Eat boots Belos.

Ok, buckle up cause this is gonna be a long one, we gotta have a chat about Belos as a character, because there's been so many takes about this i keep seeing about " he never accepted the isles the way luz did" and "He had 400 years to change and he never took the took the offer", because it just seems like the fandom wants to kinda ignore a lot of the nuance about his situation and why it's not that simple?

and i'm for sure certain it's because the fandom is obviously already pretty biased against him since he's the villain, and what he does to the main characters as well as represents.

And that's fine, obviously he becomes a pretty bad person, no one is obligated to like him and it's ok to feel uncomfortable given the character he is.

But i think a lot of these issues as to why people have such mixed opinions about the finale has a lot to do directly with the fact the show DID keep his backstory as vague as they did, when if they had gone into it i think we would've had less of this discourse.

Now none of this is me excusing him obviously, but the fandom is very adamant to just not allow him to have depth either, when....he's allowed to be irredeemable and have depth at the same time. He's meant to be a very human villain, a character that could happen to anyone under the right circumstances

So not exploring that depth, why it got how it did, and how things like it can be prevented is a flaw within the show and among a lot of fans.

And to be fair, the show does not HAVE to do it, but the show also clearly wrote his character to have a lot of implied depth whether people like it or not, him coming from a very real religious group alone and making him a foil to luz has turned what could of been a very one note villain into one with a lot of layers to his villainy.

And if the show wants to make belos a very one note villian, no depth, they could of very easily done this by just cutting out details like his love and care for his brother, or just make make him want to destroy witches simply because he decided on his own they were worth destroying.

But that's not exactly what they've presented belos as being.

The show thrives in having characters who aren't just simple nor cookie cutter.

Hunter isn't just some cocky sidekick, he's an abused teenager who craves love and affection, and is willing to go high and low to earn it, terrified to be thrown away and replaced and constantly is forced into a mold just to get the affection he craves. He's highly sheltered and isolated just because his father figure doesn't want him to be his own person since that wasn't what he was created for

King isn't just a tiny little brat who craves power, he's a child whose been lied to about his past, and he wanted nothing more then to be taken seriously and feel a sense of belonging. He believes that he wants power, but finds out he really only wanted to be treated like anyone else, and that he's far happier with a family that loves and cares about him rather then being a powerful demon king.

Lilith isn't just a self important antagonist who wants to force eda to do what she wants, she grew up close to her sister and wanting to be by her side well into the future, but felt a sense of inadequacy in comparison to eda. The pressures of the coven system and need to win against her sister made her make a drastic choice she regrets and she wants nothing more then to fix it and make everything the ideal fantasy they grew up wanting to have together. She's also a large nerd, craves the attention of higher figures since her own mother used to put all the attention on eda, and changed her appearance just so people would take her seriously.

And the show does this with most of it's cast, obvi there's the exception like tibbles and even bosha who don't have too much to them, but they're also very minor antagonists and there's still stuff you can pick up on.

Belos however is the main antagonist, everything that happens in the show, happens because of him, his entire backstory is basically why the plot of the show happens.

Not just that, but also caleb and evelyn, if it weren't for the drama between these three, there would be no show.

And people are WELL aware these three aren't the main leads, they aren't going to be the main focus of most episodes and obviously the show was going to end in the favor of the main characters.

But

the story the show tells between these three ties very strongly into the ones with the leads too. We are given at least enough details to notice parallels between stuff that happens with characters like luz, and characters like philip.

We know philip and luz grew up in gravesfield, we know there were outcasts there, and they had one family member they relied on to support them there. They ended up in the demon realm, they both learned magic, and they both are strongly motivated by their beliefs regarding the isles.

So there's a lot they share in common, which makes it really easy to take a look at philip and say "Well it's his fault for not being like luz and accepting the isles like she did".

But, there's a lot of differences here

Luz grew up with fantasy, with magic stories about witches and heroes and demons. Philip grew up in a 1600s puritan village which demonized this stuff, he was a young child growing up being told this stuff was evil and he was taught to fight against it.

Luz felt odd for her interests and out there personality but at worst she felt isolated and misunderstood, she didn't like her mom's efforts to change her to be "Normal". Philip actually conformed to gravesfield, caleb clearly encouraging his brother to do so, just so both of them could fit in with the town. Had they not conformed at best they'd be isolated, but at worst they'd be dead.

Camilia is an adult who eventually opens up and talks to luz about how it was wrong to try and change her to be "Normal", that she herself hid her own interests to do so.

Caleb, was a child, he did not have any open conversations with his younger brother. Caleb hid evelyn and his interests with witches from philip and then on top of this, left philip behind.

You could absolutely say the fact caleb didn't talk to philip is pure speculation, and not confirmed at all. That all of this could be summed up to unreliable narrators.

But we know caleb left for the isles before philip did, we know it took time for philip to find him again (because his beard grew out), we know caleb had a wife who seems to be pregnant, that he was introducing philip to (Implying he not only hasn't seen philip in awhile, but that eve and philip have never met to caleb) and all of that alone feeds into the fact caleb left him behind to start another life. This is all shown in his memories alone, stuff we can't chalk up to unreliable narrators.

So the most logical conclusion to come to is caleb left philip to start a new family, we don't have a lot of details as to if caleb ever planned to return, if caleb had good reasons to do what he did, or much about his mindset.

But we have enough to know Philip loved and looked up to caleb, that he relied on caleb, and caleb lied and left him.

There is again, reason to tie this back to camila and luz.

but this is not a child leaving a parent behind, this is a parental figure leaving a child behind.

This is what i mean by the issue being lack of clear answers, people claim caleb left when philip was an adult, but we actually have no confirmed evidence for this. We have enough of philip's memories to know 2 things, that he was still a teenager when caleb was meeting evelyn, and he was an adult when he arrived.

You could argue philip was an adult by the time caleb left, but it's so vauge you can also argue caleb left when philip was a child and philip didn't figure out his way to the demon realm till adulthood and there's not enough proof to go one way or another.

now titan dad says philip had no genuine reasons for his actions, that he did this all for glory, but as steve put it back in OTWAT, the titan is just a guy.

And given the collector situation, he can make mistakes and screw up just like anyone else.

Titan dad only sees what he can see and make observations based on what he sees. He saw a human come to the isles with a bias already against witches, who ended up killing his brother, who claimed to come here to save others and that's all he's going to see philip as being. Someone who wants to save others but just hurts them instead.

He has no reason to know what philip grew up under, nor does he have reason to know philip and caleb's story before they arrived. There's no denying philip did love caleb, and that they were close, but that caleb leaving him behind for witches drove them apart.

I think the problem ppl even have with what titan dad says is purely because the fans take it at face value, because let's be honest, most fans will believe the objective heroes for what they assume over the villians. And since the show again, leaves philip's story vauge, and never puts it in the main focus, people will just assume what titan dad says must be the truth.

Like yes, you can pick up on these details if you are paying attention, but most people won't do that, so a lot of fans will listen to the god telling them what philip's motivations are coming from rather then put together the sense of betrayal from caleb that hurt philip that most of the evidence is actually pointing to.

philip had no parents, and had no one but caleb as far as we can tell, and then caleb left him too, like he didn't want him anymore.

And he left him in a bigoted town, alone.

the damage this could of done if he was a child is pretty darn bad, and for philip to assume this happened because of a witch means reinforcing everything he's been taught about witches.

Caleb lied about his changes, so when caleb sees him again, caleb seems to be a different person, which does fit with what philip says to luz about the isles "Brainwashing people".

tho you can argue that that's not the truth, that philip knows caleb did it on purpose and killed him for betraying him, cause of how he blames him in episodes like FTF.

But again, this is the result of leaving things vague, because either situation is plausible.

it's plausible philip never intended to kill caleb at all and he died as the result of trying to protect eve because the show says he was trying to target evelyn to save caleb, and it's plausible he died on purpose out of philip's rage for caleb leaving him. Because guess what? That means caleb had the means to go see him and could've seen him but made the choice NOT to, so yeah, that's pretty heartbreaking.

again, this also comes into play regarding Philips's guilt.

People objectively keep saying philip HAS no guilt regarding caleb, but we have evidence for both guilt and non guilt.

Now, sure, his portrait of dead caleb implies philip is not guilty for his death based on his expression after the fact. We also have the fact philip shows distain towards the grimwalkers, that he never outright expresses he feels bad to anyone.

But, we also have caleb's death being treated as one of philip's worst memories in KT that he objectively recalls in horror, he says he "Tried" to save caleb in FTF, which implies he wanted to save him and that he's mad he didn't manage to do so. The grimwalkers and caleb could be seen as ghosts, but also as hallucinations, and if you are seeing them as the latter then it makes sense he'd be seeing them out of some level of guilt towards having them killed.

If the show had these details explained more fully, it would be easy to either deem belos as being a murderous dick with no remorse who thinks killing was the right thing, or as a guilt ridded stubborn murderer who wants to not acknowledge he was wrong and screwed up.

it's why people are split, because you could objectively choose to see him both ways and the ending will affect you differently depending on what you picked up on.

But now let's talk about philip not changing, because people have bashed him for not doing so in the 400 years he's been there and that he had opportunities to do so but didn't.

And i think this is half right, half wrong.

Philip came to the isles with biases, he basically grew up in a cult, he came in thinking he was traveling into hell to go find caleb. Caleb encouraged his hatred, and then his hatred got further pushed when caleb seemed to be kidnapped, and then further pushed when he was surrounded by nothing but bigots.

So this man was already on a bad foot compared to luz, who was here to live out the fantasy books she grew up on, and objectively would have no reason to hate or fear witches nearly as much.

And we do know while the BI can be compassionate, it also has it's issues, even luz faced discrimination for being human herself while on the isles. Being powerless there is well, not great, it's why luz had to figure out her own way to do things alongside everyone else.

And the Bi ARE dangerous, especially for humans, so it's at least understandable philip is not going to just show up and look past the flesh eating plants, the evil weather, and the lack of anything he can even objectively eat.

Now philip could of considered things outside of his bias, and made the effort to try and look at things from a new perspective. But we also have to acknowledge that it's not easy to come out of this long time brainwashing either, and that it takes time and help to do so.

And philip, didn't seem to have that.

Yes, caleb grew up the same way, but not only was he older, which already set him up to question things more. But he had evelyn, he had someone to challenge him and his views and change his mind.

Philp, doesn't have that, there is no confirmation anyone ever really chose to challenge his views or make him realize he was following a lie.

Caleb could of but caleb left.

All we see is philip, isolated, following the beliefs he was taught and being hostile to witches, and witches rightfully being hostile back, which just further is feeding into his bias.

You can assume philip had chances to change but didn't, but there's no real strong evidence of that being offered to him either. That any witch ever tried to make him question anything.

It's pure speculation.

Now Philip is a stubborn ass dude for sure, so yeah, we can claim he just simply didn't want to consider it.

But people are claiming Philip was shown help that he didn't take and that's just not true. We never see anyone asking him to do the right thing or making him question things, at least not compassionately.

no one to our knowledge ever did challenge him, or did reach out to him, not even in the show itself.

Luz is rightfully hostile towards him even when trying to challenge him, hunter does attempt to try and come up with helpful ideas but he would silence himself if his uncle didn't like it (Not to mention the existing fact that he is supposed to be a caleb replacement so his existence comes from philip not wanting him to change or question things philip thinks caleb should not), and well....collector giving him a hug isn't gonna do anything at that point to stop him from thinking the worst of the isles.

This is partially because belos has the power in scenes, that if he hears what he doesn't want to hear he can quickly silence the individual and ignore it.

He's basically put in situations where no one is challenging him and if they are, they're usually doing it with distain and he's responding like a dick right back.

So maybe not much could of been done when belos has become emperor, outside of some rare occurrences where he has no choice but to listen or if he was challenged by someone he respected and would be less willing to hurt. Maybe he's too far gone to back out now and has too much power to even allow himself to consider what anyone had to say, even if they did do it kindly and wouldn't face his wrath.

but he was only emperor for 50 years too.

So ok, what about before that?

Well, yeah, maybe there were chances he could of been, but that's a period of time we only see so much of, and none of it shows one way or the other that Philip was offered the chance to improve.

I think had we gotten a scene of philip being offered a chance to do good, to consider things, that he knew he was wrong and still rejected it, it would back up this whole "Philip made the choice to not get better" thing people claim.

but truth is, it's speculation, we don't know.

A guy who spent his life buying into where he grew up and came in with biases that became a cycle of him being terrible and witches reinforcing what he thought isn't just suddenly going to change his mind and be nice now on a whim unless those biases are challenged in a way he can't deny.

it's on him for not considering looking on things outside of his bias for sure, but people seem to think doing that is simple and easy and it's really not.

Philip had no evelyn, he was left with no one but his bias and stubborn mind.

It's like king said back in hollow mind " People don't want to believe they've been following the wrong person their whole lives", and philip didn't have a luz like hunter did to help him realize how wrong he really was.

Instead it got worse and worse.

This is why philip feels real, because this can happen to people, that they can grow up with hate and never receive the help they needed to pull them out of the mindset. So they get worse, they become worse people.

and we can argue philip didn't deserve the chance to get better, but you'll never know if you don't try and we don't know if anyone did try before he was too far gone.

to think all of this could of been avoided if caleb actually spoke to his brother and gave him the chance to change...

Tying this all back to the beginning-

Philip's story ties into luz, they are foils in a lot of ways, but people need to remember they have differences outside of luz being a good person and philip being a bad person. Those differences make them into the people they are.

That luz was set up to love the isles in a way philip was set up to come in with a bias against it.

That it is not as simple as "Philip should of just got better" given what happened to him and the lack of help he had.

That philip never really is objectively shown to be offered genuine chances to reconsider his views on the show as much as people keep claiming so, and it's mostly all assumption at this point.

That so much of this argument over whether he's one way or the other could of been fixed if the show hadn't kept things vague.

By doing so, it leaves a lot for interpretation about him and therefore means people will have different views on what he thinks and feels and therefore will have different views on how his death should of been handled.

Caleb and philip tie into camila and luz, they tie into the clawthrone sisters, they are the basis for the plot of the series, they tie into hunter and the themes of being understood and being honest about yourself and conformity and it is no wonder people care about them.

It is incredibly valid if anyone expecting this story, that tied into the plot so hard ,as well as the themes, was upset it felt unexplained or dropped in the finale.

Especially since the fandom, with an obvious hatred for belos, responded to it by treating titan dad's word as god and simplifies philip's story completely despite everything i just mentioned here.

It is perfectly fine if you are not someone who cares about belos, but the people who do are perfectly allowed to be bothered that the show itself kept the complexity vague and not addressed and none of it mattered when it came to how his arc ended.

And that the only person who properly gives a personal opinion of what he thinks his motives are, simplifies him to being evil, and the fandom roles with that and the show never tries to do much to prove otherwise despite the evidence.

because this is a fascinating story about how conformity and bigotry can drive two close brothers apart and it feels like a story the show should of at least dedicated more of an episode to.

Especially since there's no clear idea if we'll ever get extra toh content to really tie any of this up.

Again, none of this excuses belos/philip for what he did, does, or tries to do, no amount of his life being screwed over and people treating him bad and not reaching out to him will ever excuse the fact he went so far.

But let's also just, not pretend it was an easy fix either, that someone can just....stop believing what they believe with the drop of a hat.

Especially given how this can reflect real people who are made into people like this.

He is nuanced, and people are attached to this villain for good reasons.

Nothing is simple about him, and it's just a product of how the show has handled his character.

[roachleakage]

Before I get going into season 3 of Danny Phantom, I feel a need to take the time to enthuse about my all-time favorite antagonist of this series to date. I mean to tell you, this guy dethroned the Box Ghost, and he's still sitting at a solid #2. Though with that being said, it probably won't be too surprising when I tell you who unseated old Boxy, since this dude is so absurdly threatening that so far, he's only been deployed twice.

Yep. I'm talking about the man, the myth, the incredibly attractive legend himself, Freakshow.

Don't try to embarrass me; I've got no pride.

But uh. Moving past my taste in evil would-be clowns, I will admit that Freakshow is a classic example of Danny Phantom's derivativity. Creatively, he's blatantly heavily inspired by other cartoon villains - Jafar and the Joker being the most obvious ones - and visually, he's like if Richard O'Brien decided to work for the circus. Which I'm not remotely complaining about; it's a combination that works very well - it's just, y'know, classic DP creativity.

Anyway, the thing that I find whenever Freakshow shows up is that I am genuinely a little bit scared of him. Not in a "I am no longer aware that I'm watching a silly cartoon for kids" way, necessarily, but in an "oh shit our heroes are in real trouble" kind of way. Which sounds impressive for a guy who has no powers of his own, but... I think that's a big part of why he feels so threatening.

See, while Danny's faced a goodly number of powerful and high-stakes villains, I rarely find myself feeling like he's truly out of his depth. At the end of the day, most of them are ghosts, and he can usually defeat them by doing some kind of ghostly activity, such as shooting them with beams or taking a trip to the Ghost Zone. The few exceptions include Dan Phantom, a guy who could only really be defeated by Danny choosing not to become him, and then this motherfucker.

As I mentioned before, Freakshow is a normal human, a fact that he has a way of using to his advantage. Not because it exempts him from being blasted with beams or anything, but because he isn't constrained by the behavioral patterns or weaknesses of your average ghost. He doesn't have a consistent, unified power set that can be memorized and predicted, nor does he have a convenient Achilles heel sitting somewhere in the Ghost Zone just waiting for some hero to find it. Instead, he exhibits the far more worrying tendency of just having whatever powers he was recently able to get his hands on, and being more than prepared to get his hands on them whenever the opportunity arises.

That's the thing about Freakshow, is that he plans. And not in the grandiose, elaborate habit of Vlad Masters, who puts all his focus on a singular plan at the expense of flexibility. Freakshow's plans are simpler, but generally more effective - he looks out for potential opportunities, and does whatever legwork he can so that by the time one arises, he's ready to seize it and hit the ground running. He is, to put it in a word, adaptable.

And that's genuinely worrying. Because when someone is that flexible, you can never be too sure what they're capable of. Combine that with the absence of conventional ghost weaknesses, and you create a problem that Danny is just... not equipped to solve.

As badass as ghosts can be in Danny Phantom, I treasure those moments that show that they have their own disadvantages. Freakshow is a stellar example of that principle, a guy whose greatest strength - unfortunately unbeknownst to himself - is simply being a human being in a situation where that isn't the norm. Especially to a fourteen-year-old whose biggest non-existential threats are ordinary humans, that's a pretty big deal.

[pinayelf]

miguel feelings bc of the deleted scene:

people mischaracterize miguel largely because we see him from miles' pov. we see him as the guy who will stop at nothing to prevent miles from saving his dad - and that's insane, to tell a 15 year old to let his dad die, then to chase him around forcing him to let it happen

miguel was absolutely not right on that part at all and the things I talk about doesn't absolve him of that. I just wanna get that out now

we're essentially plopped into the apex of Miguel's grief in the movie. he just recently lost his daughter and is dealing w the consequences of what he believes is entirely his fault (I don't think he's right about the canon but that's another post). he's holding onto control and miles refusing to let his dad die is control slipping from Miguel

we see him snap. we see him at his worst. but I think what a lot of people don't get is that...it isn't inherently...him. he isn't evil. he isn't incapable of love. in fact he loves hard...but he doesn't know how to show it and it twists into something that hurts

the difference between a villain and antagonist etc etc

what does this have to do w the deleted scene? well I think it was detrimental that they didn't use it. we see miguel interacting in a more lax way with the rest of spider society. he banters, he jokes, he's sarcastic and snarky. I can see now what the writers meant when they said they based him off the '92 comics run. we see more if his personality. he's not just this angry and aggressive man. I wish they showed more of that.

we only really see him in the movie during high stress and serious situations.

idk why they didn't go with that cut. maybe it didn't flow with how they wanted the story. maybe it was for time. I don't know. but it's a shame because I think that small 5 minute scene really shows more of him - more of him outside the fannish interpretation of this animalistic, aggressive man (which is not who he actually is)

(btw I'm not forcing anyone or making anyone feel bad for viewing him however, I just think he isn't inherently animalistic nor is he evil. you're free to still dislike the dude if you do. and I know some people like him for fun, that is fine too. I'm just overly invested in him now)

[arttrampbelle]

Shang tsung isn't evil but a product of corruption and the environment that surrounds him. He's not evil in the sense of black n white thinking of morality. Especially from a western,psuedo Christian American perspective that so many people wanna shoehorn him into. (No shade here but im calling it like i see it nrs)

How is he evil when everyone in mortal kombat kills?

Also shao kahn quan chi and shinnok has arguably done worse

And even more so he's worked more with them,and under them(shao Kahn namely) and had no choice but to follow orders. Namely some things sure were aligned in benefit. But truly can you really argue that it was all his doing? No to say so is ignorant and undermining the other villains and antagonists of the series and their own contributions to the story narrative in opposition of protags and other characters.

The most evil is those who hide behind self righteousness and say they are for peace when they are being manipulated by promises of a better realm or timeline(cough fire god liu kang. COUGH)

Like nah guys mk12/mk1 don't make sense even for the narrative they are trying to pull. Shang is wonderful but yall missed the point even tho the storymode sucks and everything about it makes me nauseous, shang tsung shines thru because of what he represents. The story,It falls through the crack simply because of the fact

In mortal kombats chaotic and cruel world. You kill or be killed. You do what it takes to survive. Or be food for the gods. As you are nothing but entertainment for them.

Everyone kills in mortal kombat. So shang tsung killing means fucking nothing and is a moot point. He does it,everyone does it,how is he truly any different than anyone at that point. Thru mortal kombat,a supposedly Divine system,he's doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing. And what his character is designed to do. Period. So killing,moot point and argument.

Im not talking about. MK12/MK1 specifically. Tho that grinds my gears for many other reasons. Im talking shang tsung,overall as a whole as a character thru the 30+yrs the games and mk has been around. These are common arguments for that shang is "tHe EVil OnE" when there's no such thing in mks world. Truly. It's posturing and posing flowery words at that point. Period.

Stealing souls? He has to,to survive. He is cursed by the very gods and mentors that once swore to protect him. But did nothing.

Climbing for power? He does so because he wishes not to rule over. But so he doesn't have to worry about going to bed hungry,to suffer. He wants stability,comfort,and most of all security. A thing that long ago was robbed of him.

See you can't say shit about my man without having many reasons why he's not.

Could he be evil,nasty,and dowright fucking cruel? Oh you bet your ass he could. But does he enjoy it? Not really. He takes no pleasure unless it's out of necessity or you're considered an enemy.

He is no different than a hungry hunter. Trying to find his next meal or the next place of dwelling. Until he finds his true place of being and achieves a stable life.

Like ffs people it's right fucking there fine print and that still,STILL GOES OVER YOUR HEADS!

Like y'all who don't understand nuanced villains WANT him to be stereotypical,y'all want him to be easy to pinpoint. Because that means you dont get to critique your beloved "Heroic" characters. And use your brains,and critically think that maybe,just fucking maybe. Your nice dudes were wrong for once.

In mortal kombats world (if you can call it that because the world building sucks)

It's kill or be killed. Morality be damned. Shang tsung found that out long ago. Hiding behind morals in a world that could care less than about you. Gods that only see you as food,throw away entertainment,etc.

He may have respect for someone who despite all that crap,has some moral backbone. But isn't blind to the truth,it's survival. Dont be a pushover boot licking lapdog. As long as you don't hide behind your self righteousness and "goody goody" attitude. He'll respect that you have a noble heart. In fact,that may make him actually enjoy your company. But dont be a condescending jackass about your morals. And he'll be fine.

Shang tsung is just playing the game that the world is built upon. The rules,the gods,the empires,have made. And plays them well into his advantage.

And y'all pissed he plays it better than you. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

That my dears is a truly well done villain,antagonist,and just a beautifully complex character.

That's how you do or are supposed to do shang tsung. Period.

*slams hand down on table and leaves*

🔥💯🔥

[batmanisagatewaydrug]

I saw your ATSV reaction post and wanted to chime in a little about Miguel and Spiderman 2099. Because I love him but also your reaction to him is 100% correct, and I am also lowkey mad about people jumping straight to 'he did nothing wrong'-ing/fetishizing him.

Like, Miguel is trying his best (as Spiderman) but he's not a nice person! His arrogance and hot temper are major tenets of his character. His comics run is Mostly him fucking up his interpersonal relationships, finding out new horrible layers to the bad things that happen/ed to him, and then reacting poorly to those things (then dying) (he got better). I thought it was actually very fun of Sony to make him the Spider Society guy because he's the last person I would put in charge of anything. Like there's some fun commentary to be made on the fact that Miguel's canon lore also very much does not line up with the average Spiderman's backstory, while he's being written as placing himself in a position to act as arbiter-of-Spider-People, when he only Became a Spiderperson himself as part of a cascade of Reacting Poorly To Things.

(Be a corporate genetic engineer in the Horrid Capitalist Future -> trying to make A Spider-Man -> first human test goes horribly because your evil boss won't listen to you about the feasibility of your work -> try and quit via emotional outburst -> your boss gets you secretly addicted to illegal future drugs that are 100% addictive because they bond to your DNA or some nonsense -> your boss blackmails you into continuing to work on the person-melting Build-A-Spiderman genetics machine -> you decide to use the genetics machine to reset your DNA to before you were addicted to genetics-altering drugs -> your jealous co-worker sets the machine to give you 50% spider DNA instead -> you are mutated into a Horrid Spider Man -> you react to his by trying to kill yourself -> you live because your bullshit spider mutations save you -> all this and your drug addiction isn't even cured -> have the revelation that Capitalism Is Bad -> later find out your evil boss is also your dad)

It's unfortunately 100% in character for him to react to being happy and then incidentally destroying his own happiness (which, I have seen some wild takes about the whole 'replaced himself in another dimension' thing, but let's be real Miguel doesn't think he Deserves to be happy, so it was probably a BIT more complicated than him just being like 'hey free AU') by aggressively trying to police the multiverse because he's unfortunately a genius and also unfortunately just incredibly angry and aggressive and fueled by his own deep self-loathing and guilt.

Which is a long-winded way of getting around to the fact that Miguel using cult tactics on the Spiderpeople is because Miguel is using cult tactics on Himself to justify his actions (to himself) as part of (get this) a further cascade of Reacting Poorly To Things.

I'm personally still staggered by the fact that they made Miguel the Spider Society guy, like, I am really hoping this pans out in BTSV because, yes, Miguel has a storyline about messing around with the timeline, but that was Time not Dimensions, so I do want there to be a reason beyond 'who is the most maladjusted and traumatized and ill-tempered Spiderperson to be our antagonistic authority figure?'

Sorry this got long but ATSV has really unlocked new depths of hell for me in terms of 'niche comics character that doesn't get much attention now suddenly getting lots of attention'. I want to talk about my little guy but also my little guy needs to be appropriately contextualized and not belt-sanded into a dreaded fandom archetype.

god there's nothing I love more than a rant off a comic book fan whose little guy is being interpreted wrong. I spend most of my time in DC spaces so getting to reach across the aisle with empathy to a Marvel dude feels great, really bringing people together.

[baobhanlore-art]

Across the Spiderverse Spoilers*

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I don't think Miguel should die in Beyond The Spiderverse nor become an all out villain.

Not because I'm a fangirl and love him, though that is an element, but because he fucked up big time and redemption via death would be a lazy writing decision. He should have to atone for his bad actions. How many spider people let their loved ones die under his instructions? How many people got hurt pursuing his goals? How traumatised did he leave Miles after the chase?

As for his villainy, a route the story seems to be taking is a very anti-authoritarian one but also allowing for the authorities to have depth and humanity. And I do not see a world where Miguel becoming an all out villain would be a good theme to set. Especially since he is a vigilante himself and his shared trauma of loss should be emphasised. Even the "some people can't be saved" idea probably wouldn't work since Spot kind of already is doing that. He's trying to control everything and appears too far gone to redeem. Miles tries to offer him sympathy but it doesn't work. Miguel doesn't also need to fall into that role.

Instead, I think utilising him as someone who has to correct his wrong doings is a much more interesting way to take him. Allow for the budding guilt to eat away at him, perhaps breaking down when he realises he's wrong and losing his poise again, eventually being told "dude you fucked up but get your shit together" and he starts rebuilding the spider society into a help line for large threats and support more than a consistency programme and recognises and faces the fears he let control him. That sounds way more interesting to me than death or pure evil.

It also would align with Spiderverse's subversion of tropes.

- Miles's mentor isn't a father figure but Miles is Peter's son figure

- The love interest isn't a minor damsel or side character but a complex and layered person who's practically a second protagonist in ATSV

- Miles isn't told he needs to be strong and help everyone by a mentor or loved one that motivates him to save the day but that he's not strong enough and ends up having to motivate himself.

- The antagonists aren't well put together, calculated and intelligent but hot messes with heavy punches just like the protagonists.

- Miles isn't an orphan but has two (currently) alive and loving parents along with a huge family.

Avoiding the cop out redemption via death trope sounds pretty in line for the writers of Spiderverse.

[marley-manson]

it's very funny to me that when Mash got super into characters manipulating their friends to prank them as subplot fodder, Hawkeye's like the only one who never gets a plot like this.

Hawkeye, champion gaslighter and manipulator extraordinaire of the first three seasons, a dude who invented a whole person to defraud the military out of thousands of dollars, a dude who gaslighted a colonel into early retirement, and a dude who took out two(2) healthy appendixes, among plenty of other schemes, never uses his frankly legendary skills for evil

you get plots where Charles or BJ pit their friends against each other for ther own amusement, where the entire rest of the cast works together to drive Hawkeye into a fit of paranoia, Potter terrorizing our faves with a grand manipulation scheme in one episode, and plenty more where BJ works to turn the camp against Hawkeye for fun, but I can't think of a single subplot where Hawkeye does anything similar to anyone who isn't an antagonist.

he has a few revenge pranks on BJ in the episode tags, but these are basic straightforward ones that don't involve gaslighting or manipulation, just shaving half his moustache or letting him wake up naked in the nurse's tent. His pranks in April Fools were straightforward and boring as far as I remember without rewatching. Bombshells could almost qualify except convincing everyone Marilyn Monroe was coming was a total accident, Hawkeye just made an offhand joke that snowballed.

I think the closest he comes is the revenge prank he, BJ, and Margaret pull on Charles in An Eye For a Tooth to make him feel guilty, and he's only one of three people involved in that.

And lol I think the reason is because later Mash prefers Hawkeye to be a pathetic victim rather than an impressive mastermind, but it sure has the accidental side effect of making him come across as a much better friend. Like we know he has the chops to make BJ a social pariah in revenge after an episode like Bottom's Up, but he'll stick to something lighthearted because he reserves those schemes for psychiatrists trying to section him, or colonels trying to get people killed, or Frank.

[weebsinstash]

Ok good you've finally seen it. What gets me in atsv (at least the version I watched) Miguel isn't even stated as having and loosing a family BEFORE he just up and leaves for that other dimension. Like dude decided he wanted a different life and a family and went and took up someone else's, instead of starting his own.

I was thinking about this last night and I eventually went back and watched the scene and it's like. Yeah bro you're right they do in fact never specify if he even had a family before

In the comics, he loses his pregnant fiance, and I, assumedly with a bunch of other people, was just kind of assuming that he had the same backstory in ATSV and it was sometime after her death that he tried a second time around. I'm assuming the canon he broke by going to another universe was HIS OWN canon: as a Spider, you are apparently supposed to lose your first love/first crush and move on, but by him jumping ship into another universe, that was breaking the rules (*cough cough* "but what if Miguel realizes being with Reader in his own universe doesn't break canon and he goes apeshit with it" *cough cough*)

But GOD wouldn't it be fucked up if it really was as literal as the way he phrased it. "I found another universe where I was happy" not "I found a universe where my family survived" is kind of sus phrasing. Like yeah bro you technically uh stole the life of a completely different person and helped raise his daughter and presumedly fucked his wife

But one thing a few people have mentioned that kind of took a while to sink in was like. Him losing that second family was RECENT. He didn't form the Spider Society until sometime after Miles became Spiderman, which he's only been wearing the mask for about a year and a half. Peter B was in the flashback where Miguel lost his second family, so like. It's literally been less than two years since Miguel accidentally broke canon. This man has some piping hot FRESH TRAUMA like he's probably still in a stage of grief???

Like I understand he's an antagonist but I'll be legit angry if he becomes like monstrously evil and it becomes "oh no we gotta defeat miguel" in the third movie because his trauma and his actions are completely understandable, like he could be an antagonist but he better not be like Final Boss. Like yeah yeah "he's technically killing people by not letting people break canon" but I mean as far as he's concerned, for all that he knows, what the evidence shows and what he's lead to believe, saving one person could potentially kill an entire universe and destabilize others so like. YEAH it sucks but no one should have to explain the math. Like the man literally had a small child he was helping raise literally vanish in his own arms as she cried "dad help" and people are like "UGH MIGUEL IS EVIL" like bro at the WORST he is obsessed with making up for his sins, dude isn't DELIBERATELY tryna cause shit. Like when you really get into analysis mode you can completely understand why he's so angry at Miles, Miguel was literally chanting "no puedo mas" ie "I can't anymore" at the concept of another hole being torn in the multiverse, like he's literally shouting and throwing shit around because for him it's "oh great here we fucking go, tons and tons of people will die if I don't get this under control, when does it end, how do i fix this"

His line on top of the train really kind of cements it, where he's all "and I'm the only one who's been keeping everything together" because he's not saying that from some source of narcissism, he's BURDENED by this, he's TRAPPED by this, but he feels a responsibility and a duty to make up for what he did. The man is essentially using his role leading the Spider Society as a punishment for breaking canon.

"Miguel is selfish" "Miguel is evil" bro Miguel is literally just one really really bad accident away from straight up killing himself, like tearing his own hair out as he beats his head into a wall. Miguel is like when you're so extremely stressed out that when you dropped your fresh toast on the floor jelly-down you legit contemplated suicide "because why can't even one thing go right for me". This man is hanging on by a thread but like I'm convinced the third movie will have a happy ending because it just. Doesn't feel right if it doesn't? The entire first two movies were about finding your own identity and making your own expectations and I feel like the whole canon event narrative inherently challenges what the movies stand for, so, really interested in seeing how the third movie goes, waiting will fucking kill me, and also with all the articles coming out about ATSV having insane crunch, I have a good feeling Beyond The Spiderverse is gonna be delayed. I kinda like that though because like, idk, do you guys ever get sad when a show or series ends. It's like the journey is over and then you move on and kind of forget about everything. I'm enjoying these movies and these characters and I don't mind marinating with em a little while longer

[fiera-writes]

Alright, so. I finally rewatched Megamind after meaning to for like two weeks or so, basically ever since the sequel movie came out. And for several reasons, nooot a fan of how the sequel was handled honestly. So, I thought with the original movie fresh in my mind, I could try to brainstorm a couple things I might have done with a sequel.

To start with, the Doom Syndicate. The original movie makes no reference to Megamind knowing any other villains, let alone ever working with them in the past. So, if they were to be included I feel it should be more in a "Oh I've heard of them, they're from that one town a couple states over" way. Acquaintances at best.

But then again, the original movie also seems to imply that if there are any other superheroes or villains, they're pretty dang rare. This isn't The Incredibles where some people are just born with super powers. I mean, no one from out of town came to try and stop Megamind after he "killed" Metro Man. With Titan/Tighten it all happened within a day so less time for outsiders to react, but Megamind had control of the city for a good while there.

So, if we want to keep the Doom Syndicate... it would need to be handled differently. Also get rid of that brain "Mentor" character. I don't really have any ideas for how, except...

Perhaps they're originally fictional in-universe, from a Saturday morning cartoon or a video game or something. One way or another, they're made real and now Megamind has to stop them and probably make them fictional again. Could also be achieved with a different set of villains.

Another way to do a new villain could be Dimensional travel. Say there's some sort of a Bizarro universe, where Metro Man was evil and Megamind was good to start with. Or both were evil and teamed up to do evil. In any case, Alternate Universe Evil Metro Man gets transported to the main universe, causes mayhem. Might even force the Metro Man we know out of retirement temporarily, or not. If he does show up in public, would probably make an excuse of how he's also from some other universe specifically summoned to help out, thus explaining why he's gone again afterwards. Dude just wants to make music.

To add, the dimensional traveling villain doesn't even need to be a version of Metro Man, they could also be anyone else. Some other alien, a dude who fell into acid and got powers from it, idk man.

Hear me out, an Evil Spider-Man of sorts. That is, someone who starts out as a normal human being, perhaps an outcast, and by some twist of fate receives powers, which they proceed to use for evil. Might be re-treading Hal's deal a little but idk what I'm doing anymore.

Evil Bruce Wayne? A rich guy with weird gadgets and the skill to use them, for evil. Would probably be harder to pull off since Megamind's whole deal is how smart he is.

A Mad Scientist type. Megamind is an Evil Scientist, but not a "mad" one, he just builds a death ray powered by the sun because he's that smart. Put him against someone whose ideas make no sense to him but somehow still work.

Misguided hero? Not really a villain but would be an antagonist for the story, someone who's convinced that Megamind's redemption is all an act maybe? Would probably need powers of some sort to be an actual threat.

Alright then, let's move onto something else for a change: MegaRox. My shipper heart needs them either clearly together or clearly working on that. But the original movie does seem to imply they're already together by the time the new museum has opened. I mean, the way she jumped into his arms and then kissed him? Sure it was on the cheek but that wasn't a platonic thing. It's about the context!

No further notes on that, so I present to you... Prequel!

Takes place before Metro Man fakes his death so he can retire, and therefore Megamind is still Evil.

MegaRox wouldn't be an established relationship but did y'all see them at the start of the original? That was practically flirting anyway and that dynamic should be present.

Maybe it could even be early into his villain career? Show how he really got started as a Super Villain, the first kidnappings of Rocanne Ritchi, gaining notoriety, and how Roxanne learned that she's honestly in more danger of getting hit by stray debris from Metro Man's dramatic entrances than from anything Megamind aims at her.

I doubt I'll ever develop any of these ideas into a coherent story but if anyone wants to yoink a thought, go wild. I'm also down for discussing any of these.

[ancanosaur]

Does anyone else remember how weirdly toxic the MK Fandom was around MKx era? Becuase I do.

Those like handful of blogs that were just getting into beef with random Kano fans and their whole thing was "Kanno is a peice of shit! And so are you for liking this fictional antagonist!!!" I remember a few who put anti-Kano in thier description of their blog and it was just a hobby to shame people for drawing Kano fanart or liking the character in any way. (And a small revival with mk11 since they made him a bear for that game lmao)

Weird uncomfortable age gap shipping... That whole thing about that one artist that drew Cassie cage/subzero stuff and a shit ton of people were like "uh, he's friends with her dad and is like 52. So that's kinda weird." But then it also turned into a headcanon argument bc people were like "yeah subzero definitely watched Cassie cage grow up and he was a part of her childhood." Wich is so funny looking back at it bc there was no need for people to theorise anything about the characters relationship any further than what is Canon for it to be weird.

That fucking Sektor fan who just casually wrote headcanons about Sektor being a huge fucking racist for no goddamn reason?????!?!??? The headcanon specifically was about how they ship him and Cyrax and how Sektor calls him slurs and physically, mentally, and sexually abuses him as part of thier romantic relationship????????????? And they even gave examples of the horribly racist things he says to him¿¿¿? And that Cyrax was just okay with it??? And ended the post with like " I love my evil little man 🥰" No trigger warnings on the post either and when they were critiqued for it they were like "it's realistic and it's just my personal headcanons and you don't have to agree. Sektor is my comfort character and this is just how i see him." -type shit. (Deeper lore about said person. I actually interacted with them way before the headcanon thing. They approached me wanting to rp and they were so controlling they were basically just telling me what to do the whole time. super rude and impatient. So they just suckedl lol.)

Art blogs getting wierd asks that requested them to draw the fem characters in what was very obviously kink art but the asker would ask it in a way to trick the artist into making free fetish art for them. I got so many requests back in the day to "could you draw mileena for me :) but with her jaw wired shut? :)" or "could you draw kitana wereing a new pair of flip flops for me? That would make my day." like ????? Vague to the point of its sus but there were alot of minors in the fandom at the time including myself, i was in highschool at the time. but I was raised on deviantart so I could smell a wierd fetish from a mile away. But I did see other young artists fulfill these requests and several of them completely unaware that they were drawing kink art. Kink art is cool. But not when you're tricking minors into drawing it for you for free. (There was this mileena anon that was the most common one and I swear it was the same dude bc it was always something to do with with her getting her jaw wired shut, her getting bracess, or some other hardware being attached to her jaw/teeth.)

Selfshippers/heteroshippers being like "I know Kung Jin is the only Canon gay character in this very cis het and hyper masculine video game franchise- but im gonna ship him with my girl oc :) becuase he isn't real and it's not wierd to just pick the only gay one :) out of a huge line of big muscle men to choose from :) to ship with :) my female girl she/her lady with a vagina self insert :) or ship him with Cassie :) bc they are friends and should date :) I know he likes men :) and erasing that part of him :) erases :) a big part of his character :) and character arc :) but he would look cute :) kissing girls :) bc im :) girl :) and so is Cassie cage :) and my oc :) - is what I remember.

2015/16 really was a time for the fandom.

[grimalkinmessor]

Mikalight for the ask game! :D

Hi Moon :D

AYYYY MIKALIGHT 👓🖋️🍷

when i started shipping it: Before I'd even finished my Death Note rewatch honestly—I only binge a max of six episodes a day so I didn't even remember what Mikami looked like when I started reading fics that mentioned him. Deadass I thought he had a moustache, I was so convinced in my old memories before I saw him on screen again 😭 BUT YES I read TrashKing's Composure before I finished the series again and found their dynamic there intriguing :3

my thoughts: They just bring a sort of Riza & Roy, Barty & Tom, Crim & Alessio, Aro & Jane vibe to the table that I really enjoy ✨ The Mastermind™ and their feral attack dog—Light says "Bark" and Mikami goes "At what tone, pitch, and volume; poodle or rottweiler?" and that's just SO much to play with >:3 IT'S ABOUT THE SERVITUDE 🤌🤌 THE IMAGE OF LIGHT SITTING CLEAN AND ARROGANT IN HIS THRONE AND MIKAMI STANDING PROUD BESIDE HIM COVERED IN BLOOD 😩🙏 Mikami is Light's favorite little pet and Light is Mikami's everything.

what makes me happy about them: They are soooo unwell your honor 💕 Two freak ass nerds both thinking they're more righteous than they are. Mikami could probably snap Light in half over his knee (dude is JACKED) but he won't 🥰 They're what I need when I want Light pampered and spoiled and getting everything he wants.

what makes me sad about them: THEIR DEATHS. DEAR GOD CANON DID THEM SO DIRTY, MIKAMI ESPECIALLY 😭😭 There is no dignity in death INDEED

things done in fanfic that annoy me: Honestly? (Don't hate me for this one Moon (⁠๑⁠•⁠﹏⁠•)) I don't like how often L is brought up or mentioned in Mikalight fics. Like Mikami is L's replacement in Light's heart, like he sees L in Mikami—they're literally nothing alike 😭 They both have black hair but if that's the only thing you need to be L's replacement then Matsuda would make the cut. Besides; if I open a Mikalight fic, I want the focus to be on Mikami and Light :') If I wanted Lawlight I'd have gone to the Lawlight tag instead, you know?

things i look for in fic: Mikami being obsessed and Light viscerally enjoying his obsession. That's it :3 I want Mikami to be the devoted pursuer and Light to be the deity deigning to touch him out of amusement and curiosity. I like Light in control and Mikami being super horny about it ✨

who I'd be comfortable with the ending up with: For Light, I like him with pretty much everyone lol (have that man running from his harem 24/7), though L and Ryuk are definitely at the top of the list ;3 For Mikami.... it's harder, because I only like him with other people in situations where Light isn't a factor at all, such as they've never met or Light just doesn't exist. Save for maybe Near, because I think captor/captive is always a fun trope 💫 But with Light there (and specifically in Kira Wins AUs) I tend to like him with either Matsuda or Misa, because I can see both of those relationships turning antagonistic >:3 Mikalight is pretty much the only DN ship I have that doesn't have SOME form of chafe to it, so anything else would need to be made interesting for me to ship it.

my happily ever after for them: Kira wins, Mikami uses his eyes and tenacity to become Light's right hand man, and then they spend the rest of time being righteously evil with Light directing and Mikami wielding the scythe—which he is then reward for by Light allowing him to use his mouth and hands and sometimes cock to make his Kami-sama feel good 😌💖

who is big spoon/little spoon: TOUGH QUESTION. Because if it's in a No Death Note AU and they were both,,,normaler, I'd say Mikami. But in any other circumstance I'd say Light, if only because Mikami kneeling between his legs while Light works is practically the same thing as being the little spoon when you think about it :3

what is their favorite nonsexual activity: Not to get super soft all of a sudden, but probably talking. Mikami is canonically very intelligent as well, even if I think his smarts come more from diligent study than any born-in ability like Light's—they've probably read a lot of the same books and I imagine them sitting in comfortable quiet reading together and occasionally looking up to speak their thoughts about the book aloud, which leads them into calm but intriguing discussions. When they're not being murderous psychos, I think they're both actually quite calm and content people, so things like going for a morning run, drinking coffee together, and reading in the same room are definitely their favorite moments otherwise 💗

[a-hobit]

Honestly, what's annoying about 'good guy/parent' philip isn't that it might make people ignorant to the extent irl abusers/war criminals can be redeemed — it's that a lot of these AUs as so fucking BORING!!

I think Philip is a fine villain for the series but i don't care all that much about him. I just dislike the desire to sand down villain/antagonist characters' flaws or entire personality for the sake of uninteresting fan content. You're right! Character are just clay but folks gotta learn how to make pottery lol

It's true. Many of them don't really want to talk about how if some person actually realized that they murdered a bunch of innocent people and then suddenly gave a shit they might just commit suicide. Or that when you take away all of the "Evil" character traits he's just...some dude. And then what villain do you have? Nobody really wants to take "make the villain realize he's a villain" to like the genuinely probable extreme. What if he's a narcissist? Do you get rid of those traits or keep them? What if he's a sociopath -- a psychopath? If your villains pastime is murdering people you're going to have an extremely hard time keeping an interesting character when you sand down all the horrible things that make up what they are as a person. It's why I didn't make him a good kid in my own AU.

Because he's just fundamentally fucking crazy and it's interesting as a character.

BUT also people can do what they want to do as long as its harming nobody. Again, I do think there's a lot of truth to showing abusers in a good light and how that can affect people but I am not going to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't make an AU (within reason) . I am not an expert or a phycologist.

[real-total-drama-takes]

All stars really didn't need to create Mal to make Mike have an "evil alter" when the guy is already a short tempered impatient dude. Like he pushes Scott into shark infested water without a thought, laughs at Sam in the fkn treasure hunt episode of AS, almost lets Staci drown, etc. like they didn't have to create Mal they couldve just played into the already-established fact that he is a nice person *for the most part* but can be an asshole sometimes and that way AS wouldn't have this over the top supervillain-like character as it's main antagonist it'd just be the guy who got fucked over last season and is pissed abt it, n it would've helped keep the heroes Vs villains idea (that they really didn't seem to wanna do given how many times they change the teams or who is actually nice and who isn't) since he isn't an actual villain he's just not willing to put up with more bs.

But that's just my opinion idk anything abt story writing or storytelling or media or anything so this is probably shit I'm just trying to think of any way they could've kept a similar plot without vilifying DID and playing into the "evil alter" stereotype + make Mike more three dimensional as a character since they clearly *tried to* but were too busy showing his alters and their relationships and just kinda left him as "oh he's just a nice dude! Ignore the times he was like blatantly an ass he's nice and we will not be fleshing him out any more!"

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