#dune messiah speculation

[fuckyeahisawthat]

Fully prepared for this to be a minority position but I am deeply emotionally invested in Paul and Chani not getting back together in Dune Messiah. Not just because I love angst and tragedy (I do) but because I don't think there's a way to do it without undermining the narrative and character arcs that Dune Part Two executed so well.

Paul and Chani's relationship in the Villeneuve films exists on a totally different foundation from what's in the books. It's a political love story and you simply cannot separate out the politics from the romance. Their connection starts with the politics and the love is built on top of that.

It's not just that they happen to fall in love while fighting together in an anti-colonial guerrilla war; that is why she falls in love with him. Because he is willing to take the same risks as her in fighting for her people's liberation. Not by trying to impose himself as a leader (at first) but side by side with her as comrades and equals. Let me fight beside you. That's all I'm asking. He is quite literally willing to put his body on the line for a struggle that's been with her all her life, that she cannot escape, but that he could walk away from if he chose. And in fact he proves himself to be an asset and not a liability in this struggle and they start winning. And yeah that shit's romantic as fuck!! Kudos to whoever on the writing team was like actually direct action solidarity is sexy af because they were right and they should say it! There clearly is some attraction or at least interest in Paul on Chani's part from fairly early on, but it's only after he's proven his political worth, in battle, that she allows herself to trust him on a personal level enough to begin a romantic relationship with him. (And it's only after Paul takes off the Atreides ring, the symbol of the fact that he came there to rule over her, that the narrative permits him to advance to this point.) They could have been comrades but not lovers, but never the other way around, because there's no other version of Paul that this Chani would have fallen in love with.

It's important that they meet in circumstances where Paul has no structural power over her. Chani never would have trusted the Paul who stood in the colonial palace and pledged to "honor" Stilgar by offering him hospitality on his own fucking planet. Because she would have known, just as Stilgar did, that such an offer of fellowship, no matter how genuine and well-intentioned, is not made on equal terms. It's only once Paul has been forcibly separated from his colonial privilege that they have even a chance to approach each other as human beings. (And, in a sort of dark irony, that violence becomes a bridge that connects them. That Paul is driven not by abstract power games among the Great Houses but by real grief and anger over the violent death of people he loves at the hands of the Harkonnens must surely be something Chani understands. And it builds a level of trust and empathy between them, that she doesn't have to explain the stakes of what they're fighting for. He knows it in his bones.)

It's not a coincidence that all their explicitly romantic moments are shot through with politics. Their first kiss is wrapped up in a conversation about what it means to be Fremen and I would very much like to be equal to you. (Yes, he's flirting his ass off with that line, but I do think he is sincere.) Their single post-coital scene has I'm no messiah, I'm a fedaykin of Sietch Tabr--not just a commitment to her people and her home but to her specific form of political struggle in which he is joining her. Throughout their whole relationship, the personal and the political are so interwoven as to be indistinguishable from one another.

This kind of commingling of emotional commitment to a person with political commitment to a culture/people/cause could have very easily slid into something tokenizing or fetishistic, but the writing manages to avoid that by sticking very strongly to a couple of guardrails. One, Chani is not some passive prize to be won, but an active agent of her own liberation, whether Paul is in the picture or not. She is the Fremen liberation struggle within the political allegory of the film; she is its voice and embodiment from the moment we meet her. On a character level, she is doing her thing and it's up to Paul to either follow or get out of the way. Even though we know he is afraid of her dying, he never once suggests she leave the front lines of armed struggle (can you imagine?) because that struggle is such a fundamental part of who she is and what he loves about her.

Two--and this one is important for what comes next--the narrative never trivializes the political side of their relationship in favor of the romantic. The second Paul reaches for any kind of power over the Fremen, over Chani, the trust between them is broken and the romance cannot continue. She might still love him as a person--you don't just turn that off--but she cannot be in love with him as the Lisan al-Gaib, fulfillment of a false prophecy she hates; as the Duke of Arrakis, her colonial overlord; or as the Emperor of the Known Universe, overlord of her overlord. As soon as he pulls that shit he is just another colonizer and she's done with him.

And like, kudos to the narrative for being absolutely uncompromising on that point! That's what makes both the political allegory and the personal tragedy hit so hard! Paul, bro, you fucked that one up good and now you are Experiencing a Consequence! I LOVE that in the end, love isn't enough. All the love in the world isn't enough to keep Chani from walking out at the end of the film, because the foundation that love is built on is broken and cannot be repaired.

(I do believe that by the time he is declaring himself Emperor, Paul thinks he has no choice, that this is the only way to save the people he loves from any number of worse fates. But that, too, is a betrayal, of a kind I don't think Paul fully understands. Because either you think the Fremen are capable of governing their own planet or you don't. Deciding unilaterally that having a "friendly" imperialist in power is the best you can hope for is a profound denial of the agency of the people Paul claims to be doing this in the name of. It's either paternalism or despair, and neither are acceptable modes of thinking for a serious revolutionary. Chani would tell you as much.)

The thing with making a bold writing choice like that is that...you cannot then walk it back in the next film with Chani choosing to forgive Paul or coming around to seeing the world his way and understanding that yes it's politically unsavory and he's manipulating the people he said he was in solidarity with but this was the only way! If you do that then the whole framework of what the first two films are trying to say about power and imperialism and resistance and solidarity collapses into incoherence. On a thematic level Dune Messiah is all about the consequences of Paul taking power the way he did and these are the consequences.

And on a character level...I just don't see any way to come back from such a deep betrayal. Even if some part of Chani still loves him. Even if she's pregnant with his child(ren). (We have like, zero information about how movie Chani feels about family and pregnancy and childrearing that would indicate that she would care one bit about her children's biological father being involved in their lives when he is otherwise busy being a space dictator.)

There are several categories of scenarios I can think of to get Paul and Chani interacting again (she goes back to him as a spy/assassin; she's brought back to the palace under some sort of duress, "for her safety" or even as a political prisoner) but none of them involve them being genuinely together as a couple. I could also see them not interacting at all for most of Dune Messiah. What I cannot see is any scenario in which she genuinely forgives him or ever fucking trusts him again. That shit is over and there's no getting it back.

[fuckyeahisawthat]

So I have like...half an idea for a WIP that's like "five ways they could meet again in the future" and one of them is an alternate timeline where Chani was already pregnant with the twins at the end of Dune Part Two. Maybe they come out pre-born for Reasons; maybe they're just normal Fremen kids. Personally I think movie Chani would totally name a kid Ghanima, so the girl is still named that, but obviously the boy wouldn't be named Leto in this future; he would have Chani's father's name instead. She's told them that their father died in the war against the Harkonnens, which might as well be the truth. And she is just raising them the way she was raised, as future fedaykin, and they're like twelve before Paul ever meets them.

I don't really think they would ever go this way in the movie, but it's fun to contemplate.

For Home I did spend some time thinking about how Chani might conceptualize her relationship with Paul after the end of Part Two. And I do think it's pretty likely she would convince herself that he tricked her, that he never actually loved her and all those promises about fighting side by side for Fremen liberation were lies. We have a fair bit of insight into Paul's logic (flawed though it is) for why he's doing what he's doing, but Chani operates from an entirely different set of assumptions and I think it would be a lot easier for her to think that it was all an elaborate con than for her to accept that he really did love her and mean everything he said, and then betrayed her anyway. So I don't think it's totally impossible that the movie could go in the direction of Paul being like "you are the love of my life, I think about you every day and dream of you every night" and meanwhile Chani has convinced herself that their few-months-long situationship from twelve years ago wasn't even real.

Ok. Ok. I honestly have no idea how Chani and Paul's relationship will be handled in the 3rd movie, and honestly? I don't care. I'm confident that however it's handled (so long as it's not some extremely OOC plot with her forgiving him and going back to him willingly, but I'm pretty confident it won't be that) it will change my brain chemistry.

But hold on. hOld on. Because as much as I love the thought of there being a lot of heat and tension and Feelings Feelings (99.9% of which are NOT positive) between the two of them, and it's likely that's the direction the film will go, I'm also somewhat intrigued by the alternative. That there's...nothing. Maybe not at first. But after twelve years, if Denis intends to keep the time jump as written, things fade. No hate, but no love either. As if they'd never known each other at all.

Because it's been twelve years. Nobody knows exactly how old the two of them are supposed to be in the films, but my personal headcanon is like 18/19. Meaning if Messiah keeps that time jump, it would put them in their early thirties. That's...a lot of time. That's a big difference in psychology, in emotional processing, in just...ways of life and ways of living. It's strange to me to assume that both of them would be exactly the same people - on their own or in regards to each other - after all that time.

And of course, that's not to say they'd forget each other entirely. Scars don't fade that easily. Everything Paul went through leaves a mark. Watching your lover succumb to the clutches of power and essentially becoming somebody entirely new, becoming your people's oppressor after swearing to fight alongside you in your rebellion as an equal (and for all you know, that was his plan all along) definitely leaves a mark. But twelve years is still a long time, longer still for people dealing with the level of shit these people deal with in day to day life. Whatever both of them could be up to for all that time leaves marks too, and adds to the pile of shit.

Especially, I think, for Chani. Because her anger and defiance against her oppressors began long before she met Paul. That is her purpose. Paul changed and grew along with her and because of her presence. He is forever touched by her and her memory, and won't, I don't think, ever be able to let go of that. And while Chani's rage and despair and pain at what he did is very real and very much not something I can see just fading away, I could also see her almost using what happened as an excuse to go back to whatever "normal" was before Paul for her. Almost as a coping mechanism. Because Paul did, in her eyes, essentially become a different being after the Water of Life. He's not the man she fell in love with. And maybe it would be easier for her to, rather than engage with that anger directly at him, just...let him fade into the background. He's not him anymore. He's just another evil to defeat.

I've just...realized I kind of have mixed feelings about the thought of her spending twelve years nursing her rage at Paul specifically. Of course it was a betrayal - probably the biggest betrayal she's ever known - and that kind of thing doesn't just go away. But she hated the empire before he was emperor. There's a depressing kind of power in going "ok, I guess it's no different than before, I'll just keep on going the same way I was before any of this happened." As if the months she spent with him were nothing, weren't even real. Just...the thought of Chani as an adult going on day to day with whatever she's doing to fight for her people's freedom, trying desperately to forget that the man who now holds that freedom in a yoke was once one she loved and trusted. And it getting slightly easier every day. Her dreams of her people's political victory mattered long before Paul came into the picture and will matter long after he left. It's not about him, it's still about the emperor. Whos is not the man she loved.

idk I *love* Chani's Feelings after part 2 and all that could come with that, I love it but part of me is also like...if they really do spend 12 years apart does she really have nothing better to do with her time (ESPECIALLY if it turns out she has a child) than plan her revenge against him specifically? Like. as the Emperor Of The Known Universe, yes, because he is at the top of the food chain of oppression she's spend her life trying to bring down. But not as Paul. Not as the man who betrayed her. Because all of that is wrapped up in personal, vulnerable feelings that I feel like to her would seem like a waste of time. She will not give water to the dead, and Paul is dead to her.

And all this would be more tragic because I'm sure, I'm sure that with Paul it's the complete opposite. He cannot forget her. He cannot have a life where he doesn't think of her. And a part of him would be still trying to protect her from his position probably, maybe even hoping in some distant part of his mind that she'll one day come back. Twelve years of grief and guilt cutting a hole in his chest versus twelve years of practicing how to forget.

And then. Again, I doubt this is the route they'll go because it's not as dramatically interesting, at least I'd love to see it in a fic (maybe I'll do it), but it would be so unusual to me to see them meet again, and their story not end in revenge or reconciliation. There's no forgiveness, there's also no surprise killing or coup or anything. Maybe Paul thinks it'll go one of those ways, but instead it's like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, for lack of a better comparison. His relief at her being alive, the indescribable regret, love that is still there, all of that met with...nothing. Because Paul, kid, it's been twelve years. She's moved on. She's fighting her fight, and you are her political enemy and that is all you are. She can't even hate you, because *you* aren't the one betrayed her. For there to have been betrayal, that would mean she had to have loved and trusted you, and she never did. She loved and trusted Usul, and you're Emperor Muad'dib. The two do no equate. She will never love you again. But she can't hate you, because she doesn't even see you as a person - let alone one she used to love.

@fuckyeahisawthat idk if you have a counterpoint or thoughts or whatever i just wanted to tag u

[silvyysthings]

https://www.tumblr.com/silvyysthings/778913482117709824/even-on-a-pap-photo-set-he-has-a-dune-book-tucked?source=share

partially agreed with you Silvy. While I can see your reasoning and it does have some valid points I do think it is a promo. Yes, he is currently prepping for Dune Messiah shoot and yes he probably has business lunch, so it will be handy to have it with him there. But you know what it will be even more handy? If he had took it with him inside the hotel instead of leave it in the car door. Also, since he is driving himself there when does he have time to read it during the drive? I sure hope he is not driving and reading/ not focusing on the road 😂 Besides that being illegal it is also dangerous for his health and well being. So, if he is not reading it/taking it for the lunch meeting or lunch (cause we don’t know if he has a meeting) why take it during the drive. Surely, he can leave it at home if he has no opportunity to read it during the drive or during lunch. I doubt he is so attached to the book that he cannot simply live without being separated from it 🤣 So, I do unfortunately, think this is a promo and was meant to be seen for the pap shots. I don’t necessarily agree this is Jenner/Kardashian style of promo or whatever the anon was saying but I do think for whatever reason he wanted people to see it there. Maybe he is trying to send a sublimal message that he is in prep mode and that he is serious and works hard in his prep as he has been accused of just being a celebrity. So, maybe he wanted to show he works hard and preps hard (Possibly show one other thing with that but don’t want to speculate on that openly just yet). That’s the most logical explanation to me. But I think whoever advised him/set it up for him didn’t realise it will backfire and people will see it as shameless promo and it will read differently. But what can I say his team are morons no surprise there 🙄 If this was Tim’s idea then yikes Tim, love, please think things through before jumping into things 😬

So, yeah it was a form of promo and self promo but not for the reasons your anon stated.

apparently he has it everywhere

[miraevanlynch]

📜METATRON’S MESSIAH RECIPE THEORY📜

You thought I’d stopped replaying the grueling ending of episode 6? Nope, quite the contrary. I’ve watched it so many times that I’ve come up with a new conspiracy theory about Metatron’s motives and Aziraphale’s choice at the end of season two. This is just my speculation, so read it for entertainment. The article is very long, so please bear with me.

“Does anyone choose death?” – Metatron.

Surely, you’ve asked the same question as I have: “Why Aziraphale?” Why our angel, a “traitor” to his side, a low-ranking Principality, often seen as foolish, weak, and despised by his colleagues, was chosen by Metatron to become the Supreme Archangel, second only to God?

I’ve read many theories suggesting that the position of Supreme Archangel is merely titular, that Aziraphale will become a puppet in Metatron’s hands, allowing him full control. By separating the angel from Crowley, their combined strength would be diminished, ensuring the “Second Coming” goes smoothly without any hindrances. This theory made sense to me until I remembered the “Book of Life,” capable of erasing any entity with a single stroke.

And Metatron, the angel with full access to that book, could easily have erased Aziraphale and Crowley’s names, making them never exist. This indicates that Metatron’s plan goes beyond merely controlling the Ineffable Husbands' miracle; perhaps the scheme to separate them is deeper. Aziraphale and Crowley might actually be crucial to his plan, not just obstacles Metatron wishes to eliminate.

Anyone here read Frank Herbert’s Dune or watched its film adaptations? If so, you’d recognize two things:

1. Faith is the most powerful soft power, capable of wiping out armies. Nothing is more fearsome than an army of fanatics with unshakeable faith.

2. To have unity, you need religion and ideals. For religion and ideals to exist, you need an epic, a legend about “the chosen one.”

In season two, Heaven is depicted as highly fragmented, with Michael and Uriel vying for the Supreme Archangel position, Gabriel’s memory being wiped, and even Saraqael and Muriel aiding Crowley, a demon and their common enemy. Heaven is experiencing a severe personnel crisis, possibly even worse than Hell’s (at least Hell isn’t plagued by infighting).

As the King of Angels, overseeing Heaven, what should Metatron do to address this urgent problem, especially with the “Second Coming” looming, and both Heaven and Hell preparing for a great war? A disunited heavenly army lacking faith and bickering over personal gains is not what Metatron desires. He needs to unify them before the Holy War to ensure victory.

Metatron realizes the angels need a new leader, someone to rekindle their dead faith in God, unite them under one ideal, and lead them to a vision of heaven’s ultimate triumph, performing miracles no other angel can.

That’s when Metatron decides to go to Earth to find Aziraphale.

But why Aziraphale? We haven’t answered this question yet, have we? Why must Aziraphale become the Supreme Archangel, why is he “the chosen one”?

Simply because Metatron saw extraordinary qualities in him. The qualities of a heavenly “Messiah.” But what are the qualities of a Messiah? And what specifically has Aziraphale done to fulfill them? I’ll list some rather coincidental, perhaps eerily coincidental, details to support the idea that Aziraphale fits the messianic archetype, or even Jesus Christ.

To become a savior, one needs:

1. To perform extraordinary feats that no one else can: Jesus walked on water, prophesied, and healed. Aziraphale, in Heaven’s eyes, is the only angel who survived hellfire (like Paul Atreides surviving the Water of Life in Dune), prevented the Apocalypse, and persuaded the Antichrist, Adam. He understands human ways and Earth, something the other bureaucratic angels can’t grasp.

2. To have high ideals and absolute loyalty to the Almighty: This is evident in Jesus. For Aziraphale, it’s his unwavering faith in Heaven’s inherent goodness, his belief in God, and, crucially, his desire to reform Heaven’s corrupt bureaucracy that oppresses low-ranking angels while the higher-ups fight each other. (This echoes the plight of the Jews under harsh rulers and their prayers for a savior like Moses or Jesus. In Dune, the Fremen yearn for their Lisan Al Gaib to lead them to a Green Paradise. Angels are akin to the Jews or Fremen, longing for faith and salvation.)

3. To be compassionate, bearing the world’s sins: Jesus bore the hatred of the very people he sought to save but always forgave their sins. In Dune, Paul Atreides endured severe trials on Arrakis to earn the Fremen’s trust. Similarly, Aziraphale, despite Heaven’s mistreatment, holds no grudges and is ready to reform it for a brighter future for all.

4. To be “betrayed” by someone trusted and willing to sacrifice everything to save the world: This is the interesting part. After Metatron targeted Aziraphale, who bravely asked God about the Great Plan (in season 1) and fought for his ideals, he likely planned to turn the angel into an epic saint, a true religious leader for his military ends. Remember Metatron’s question at the café:

“Does anyone choose death?”

The answer is yes. The Messiah chooses death to save everyone. Jesus chose crucifixion, knowing it would redeem the world. Paul Atreides drank the lethal Water of Life to become the Mahdi of the Fremen. And how do you push a saint into such despair, making them endure all pain to highlight their virtues, leading people to follow them and unite under their faith?

Every story needs a villain to highlight the hero’s virtues.

And both angels and demons hate traitors.

Jesus was betrayed by Judas, his close disciple, whom he trusted, someone with latent evil but whom he always forgave. Judas wanted a violent revolution, a physical liberation, contrary to Jesus’ “spiritual revolution.” Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss.

And Aziraphale, excited about realizing his ideal of improving Heaven, was “betrayed” by the one he loved and trusted most, someone seen as a sinner but always recognized for his inner goodness. Crowley preferred “physical freedom” by fleeing to the stars, rejecting “freedom of thought,” which required resolving all potential threats. Crowley betrayed Aziraphale with a kiss.

After enduring all physical and mental agony, our Messiah will leave the mortal realm, forsaking all worldly pleasures to return to Heaven, where they save all beings.

So, from the perspective of other angels, the story of a “Messiah” Aziraphale with miraculous powers, grand ideals, a compassionate heart ready to forgive all sins, willing to bear hatred, pain, and the ultimate betrayal to lead everyone to a New Heaven, is skillfully crafted by Metatron. This legend will spread among the angels, inspiring them to follow their Supreme Archangel with renewed faith. They’ll believe in God again, more united than ever, ready to wield their flaming swords against Hell. Michael and Uriel will no longer oppose their new leader, and no angel will doubt this propaganda, as they lack the knowledge of manipulation, and they’ve been subservient for too long.

By then, Aziraphale has completed his function, whether he resists or tries to stop it. It’s too late, as the angels only need a legend, a prophecy to believe in. Aziraphale has become that legend through Metatron’s orchestration. Like Paul Atreides, he becomes an unwilling saint, a Messiah without a choice, manipulated by those behind the scenes like the Bene Gesserit or Metatron. They only need a story, someone to ignite faith for battle. Thus, Heaven has a battle-ready army with unprecedented resolve for the Great War between Heaven and Hell. Metatron has achieved his goal. Perhaps the protagonist of the “Second Coming” isn’t Jesus or any other son of the Almighty but rather the return of the once-militant Heaven, which banished the fallen angels to Hell. Heaven will return to Earth on Judgment Day with their Supreme Archangel, who understands humanity to commence the reckoning, wielding enough power to face his hereditary enemy, the First Sinner, the Serpent of Eden, new Prince of Hell, who betrayed him with a kiss…

It will be a terrifying prospect.

Aziraphale only wanted to bring Heaven to Crowley. And now, he has brought “Heaven” to everyone.

Nothing lasts forever, nothing IS forever.

And that’s Metatron’s recipe for creating a Messiah, by Heaven’s most powerful weapon – Faith.

END.

[fuckyeahisawthat]

I mean...the pregnancy they're referring to could also be the twins (assuming that only one of them will actually be heir to the throne). But like, if I were writing a sequel not based on an adaptation of an existing work, given the relatively unresolved ending of Dune Part Two...my instinct would be to pick up the story fairly soon after where that film ends. So I could see them doing that and then skipping forward in time at some point.

I still cannot see Chani going back to Paul willingly and genuinely even if she realizes she's pregnant with his child. That seems to go against everything that's been set up with her character and everything Denis has said about how powerful her anger is as a story element.

A scenario I could see happening with the movie versions of the characters in particular is like...Chani being wounded in whatever event kills OG Leto II, and being brought back to the palace without her consent because she's unconscious or whatever, and then realizing that "for her own safety" she is not going to be allowed to leave. (Like I could really see movie Paul's trauma-driven fear of people he loves dying turning into creepy overbearing paternalistic "protection" of Chani and I think that would be a nice parallel to the paternalistic, self-serving attitude he develops toward the Fremen as a whole.) And maybe Chani ends up doing some long con in which she convinces Paul she's forgiven him and gets him to trust her for Plot Reasons.

(In these scenarios I am always thinking about Incendies, in which a woman puts considerable effort into getting a job in the home of a man she hates and convincing him she is an unassuming servant, in order to murder him in revenge for a war crime he organized that she narrowly survived. Coincidentally, the same character has a son who is taken away from her as an infant, and then later has twins.)

Dune 3 filming

https://x.com/solacecinema/status/1856382637721694234?s=46

X

Daaaang....Z is gonna be busyyyy next year!!!! 😅🤣

Anyway, that's cool! Can't wait to see some more Dune filming. 🥰

It seems we'll also get to see Pregnant Daya 🤰🏽 for the first time. 🥹 Lol

[where-theres-smoak-2]

Since the announcement that Dune part three is in development I've watched a couple of youtube videos and read some articles announcing the news, talking about potential release dates and just generally talking about what they want for the third installment and in the comment section of them there seems to be a lot of discussion around how true to the book the third film will be.

Some are saying that they think Villeneuve will stick closely to the book Dune Messiah, others are saying that he will throw the book out completely and just make up his own story for the third film. Some are saying that after the changes made in Dune Part Two, particularly with the changes to Chani's character arc, its now impossible for him to stay true to the book.

Now I haven't read the book so not only do I have very limited knowledge of the book, I also don't have any special attachment to it. So my following views on the subject are coming from that perspective and are based on the two films I've seen and some comments that were in these articles/comments section.

(So mild book spoilers here, you can learn this from reading the blurb of the book.) One thing I did learn is that the book the third film will be based on, Dune Messiah, is actually set 12 years after the end of Dune Part Two's events. We don't see the holy war, we only see the aftermath. Personally I found this news a little disappointing because I feel like they've been revving the audience up with this holy war for the last two movies and so I was really looking forward to seeing it, to seeing just how far Paul goes, whether he tries to hold back at all, whether he has moments of hesitation etc, I was just really hyped to see this war they kept going on about. That being said I do think that seeing the aftermath would still be interesting too.

I've also seen some people say that the book itself won't translate as well to film as the first book does, apparently it has a lot less action and is more political intrigue, as one article put it, its a lot of people sitting in a room and talking. Again haven't read the book so I don't know how accurate that is, but on a similar vein, I've seen a few people say that whilst the book is good its nowhere near the level that the first book is and so they are worried the third film could be a let down for non-book readers.

So as I said above, lots of opinions going around, mostly from book readers because naturally they know a lot more about what is coming than us non-book readers. But it got me thinking how might Villeneuve approach the film and work around some of the concerns I've seen being discussed, the main ones seeming to be, there not being enough action/ it not translating well to screen and how they are going to deal with Chani, as it seems she plays a vital role in messiah and kind of needs to be at Paul's side in order to fulfil that role. So here are my theories and guesses at how Villeneuve might approach the last film. Again these are just my own speculations and opinions.

This first one could definitely be influenced by my own wishful thinking, but one way they could add a bit more action to the film is to spend say the first hour, for example, showing the holy war and using the time to explain how and why Chani returns to Paul, the birth of Alia maybe, etc and then have the time skip to 12 years later and cover the events of Messiah. These films usually have a long run time so if they keep the long run time for this film maybe they'll be able to cover both events. I do believe that the messiah book is considerably shorter than the Dune book, but then the Dune book was split into two films so I am not entirely sure on how well it would work. I guess it would depend on how well it is written.

Another possibility is what some have suggested and that they just throw the book out pretty much completely. The argument here being that Herbert wrote Messiah because when his first book came out the audience didn't get his intended message that Paul wasn't the hero, so he wrote Messiah to really hit home his message that this was a story about the dangers of false prophets and not a hero's journey type story. However Villeneuve has already achieved this message in Dune part two, which could give him some leeway to take the story in a new direction and add his own spin on it. It could also be an opportunity to make the story more appealing to modern audiences, the books were written in the 60's so political and world views were a little different than today. I do think that might be part of the reason why they changed Chani's character, the loyal concubine who follows along with the false saviour's crusade might not have been all that appealing to a more modern audience. The flip side of that though is that abandoning the book completely might not be a popular decision amongst the book readers. So you could end up alienating one side of the audience in favour of making the story your own and trying to appeal more to the general audience.

The third way could be to stick as closely to the books as you can given the changes made in part two. Villeneuve could just start the film with a narration from one of the characters like he did with Chani in part one and Irulan in part two, maybe this time they could have a narration from Paul himself explaining what happened in the war and how and why Chani came back to him etc, setting the scene so to speak. Then from then out just follow whatever happens in the books. Personally I don't know how satisfying I would find this but it would at least follow the same pattern as the other two films if it opens with a narration.

One other thought I had was they could keep the time-skip for the film but have a miniseries that is set during the holy war, I know they are already doing a miniseries covering the bene gesserit so maybe they can also do one showing the war to fill in the gaps. However I think this would be highly unlikely as I don't think they'd have the time to film both a mini series and an actual film. But you never know maybe we'll get really really lucky.

Out of all the possible options, I personally think the first one would be the best option. It would be the best of both worlds, the book readers will still get to see the book adapted, but spending some time at the beginning of the film showing the war could add that needed action and make it more exciting for those who haven't read the book and who might otherwise be disappointed.

But I am curious to know what others think. If you haven't read the book how do you feel about there being such a large time-skip? Do you care if they skip over the war? Or if you are a book reader are you hoping they'll stay close to the book or do you share the same opinion as some of the other comments I saw saying it won't translate well to film? How important do you think the change to Chani's character is and do you agree with those saying it has messed things up going forward? I am very curious to know. All of this being said I am still very excited that they are making a third film and I trust that no matter what direction he chooses to go Villeneuve will deliver another amazing piece of media for us.

[eruscreaminginthedistance]

Ugh it's taken me like a week to post this because reformatting PF posts on my phone is a bitch so I'm gonna throw this out here so that i don't put it off any longer; my Dune Part 2 review.

Basically, I feel like I'm living through a Category 5 LOTR event in real time. I was worried going into the second film that I was overhyped and that I should temper my expectations; speculative fiction adaptations 9 times out of 10 are usually dead on arrival and Dune Part 1 already defied the odds for being as good as it was for an almost 1-to-1 recreation.

I feel like after this I could confidently trust Denis Villeneuve with my life. The man's not really making a product. He clearly LOVES sci fi. Respect for the source material oozes out of every scene of Dune, and his little tweaks and changes are done with care and with a sense of critically engaging with the story that shows real thought.

Praying to the gods that once Denis finishes the trilogy he brings out a boxset DVDs with at least three behind the scenes DVDs MINIMUM. I need to see every single aspect of production on this leviathan of a project and then ritualistically watch all three movies back to back as I would with LOTR.

Spoilers under the cut

In terms of what I liked:

I've only read the first two books in full - Children and God Emperor are next on my list to finish this year - so I can't speak as an uber knowledgeable Dune nerd who knows the books back to front, but I'm very confident when I say that Denis's changes to the source material didn't take away from the experience of the story at all.

- Chani's probably the biggest change of all in the sequel and oh my god does it revitalise her character. I was quite shocked scrolling through tags to see book readers complain about how much the movie changed her and her arc. What are they mad about? That they gave Chani something to do other than sucking Paul's dick? In the book, literally everyone is 100% behind Paul uncritically accepting every single thing he does and Chani is just one of a swarm of characters that do that. I say this with much love because I like her book counterpart but I struggle to understand the people who claim to be so invested in book Paul and Chani's dynamic as opposed to the film's when book Chani's whole character is "Wife", until Dune Messiah when she gets the "Nagging Wife" upgrade. Denis's version effectively makes her co-protagonist with Paul and it was so exciting to see that play out on screen. She became the moral litmus test and the last vestige of uncorrupted ideals in the movie; Paul's descent into fascism and betrayal of the Fremen would not have hit nearly as hard if everyone went along with it like in the book.. I really felt for Chani having to watch everyone she knows get swept up in this insane fervour. She's too dedicated to the concept of freedom to fall for the bullshit and that was such a relief ti witness. Film Chani is her own character, not just another limb of Paul's, so her story is going in a slightly different direction and I'm really excited to see that. Would not have been nearly as hyped if her whole arc was just going to be "be pregnant. die" again.

- Jessica being an absolute FREAK. She was probably my favourite character from the book and I was so pissed she wasn't in Dune Messiah. I needed to get inside her head and wiggle around in there while I was reading, and Denis fed me. In the book, I got the impression she was quite a passive participant in the prophecy, so getting to see her go full wicked witch in the film was a massive highlight. Speaking to Alia in the womb, her sinister use of The Voice (such a horrific departure from her only using it for self defence in Part 1), her FASHION. Denis needs to adapt her into Dune Messiah I refuse to watch a version of Messiah without Jessica in it.

- Stilgar came out of nowhere with the steel chair for me. The first book is filled back to back with noble fatherly leader figures so he got very lost in the shuffle and I didn't really pay attention to him that much beyond being one of Paul's many mentors. I read a tiny bit of Children before watching Part 2 and Stilgar seriously considering murdering Paul's children made me do a double take. Then seeing him in this movie blew me away. Guys I think I've slept on Stilgar all this time xD. Not gonna lie though, the film beefs up his character quite a lot from the books. I think it was a good decision to make him comedic relief, because it offsets that "religious fundamentalist" element that could put people off. It makes him much softer and more likeable. He's just a guy with big hopes and big dreams and a big heart who's a bit silly sometimes, and that makes him the ultimate prey for Paul and Jessica. It's absolutely sickening to see them exploit his sincere faith and beliefs and I'm getting upset now just thinking about all the horrific things he'll be lead to do. Denis did a fantastic job of making him a more sympathetic and softer character for people to compare with his post-timeskip Space Hitler's Right Hand Man role.

- Introducing Princess Irulan early hell yeah!! Huge improvement on the book imo; she was very much a dark horse character for this film and Florence Pugh nailed it. I loved her being the narrator much like in the book, and it was interesting to see her contribute to putting the pieces in place for the endgame, rather than just turn up at the end. More of her please, Denis!

- One of my complaints about the first film was that there wasn't enough Harkonnen action, specifically the Harkonnen-Atreides rivalry, which was talked about a bit but not really shown. Denis made all those Harkonnen scenes specifically for me. I adored the balls to the wall aesthetics and the incredibly villainous acting. This film isn't afraid of moustache twirls and villainous laughter and I LOVE that. It felt fresh. Villains who just love doing bad shit and aren't even trying to justify themselves they just LOVE being horrible creatures in their black stone murder palaces.

- What can I say about the look of the film. You've all seen it. If you haven't then go fix that. It's one of the most visually cohesive and stunning films I've seen in a long time. I don't know how a world can feel so real and yet unreal (/pos) at the same time.

- Hans Zimmer showed the fuck UP for this score. I've been listening to it nonstop all weekend. I kinda miss the Atreides bagpipes but the new horns drive me insane so it's a good tradeoff.

Things I'm on the fence about:

- I think it was a good call to remove the whole thing with Paul uh, inheriting Harah from Jamis. It gave more screentime to Chani and I think would have really put viewers off Paul when really you wanna keep people going in blind rooting for him until the third act. BUT I was surprised she wasn't in the film at all? I was convinced that the lady we see Chani talking with was supposed to be an adapted Harah, but I'm seeing everywhere online that that's not supposed to be her and Harah wasn't in the film? Why not? It just felt a bit weird that she's just some nameless Fremen.

- I'm not gonna lie I forgot Thufir existed on my first watch. I think me not missing him overall is a good sign. I didn't rewatch part 1 so I guess I assumed they'd killed him off in the Arrakeen attack, and didn't realise his part had been cut until I saw an article about it later. That was kind of disappointing. While I think the film is perfectly fine without him, I think the inclusion of his plot as kind-of prisoner kind-of strategist for the Harkonnens would have really solidified the Harkonnen-Atreides rivalry. Again because we almost never see an Atreides and Harkonnen onscreen together, so having him there to exemplify it in practice I think could have just polished things up for me personally. But also I want all films to be 5 hours long so what do I know.

- Jessica and Chani didn't interact nearly as much as I wanted them to tbh. I'm hoping that Dune Messiah beefs up their relationship.

- Timothee Chalamet

Things I didn't like:

- Not Paul btw, just Timothee

- Been saying this since the first movie but him and Zendaya were really only cast cos they're hot ticket items right now, not because they have the look and feel of the characters or the world; they just wanted to cast some hot supermodels in the roles

- Zendaya justifies her casting though by being the better actor though; I was sceptical but I came to buy her as Chani and she did a good job resonating with me

- Timothee's just a guy though, wasn't impressed

- Which is a huge problem because the emotional throughline of the movie is their romance and I just. Did not buy it. Timothee could not have paid me to believe that he was in love with Chani. They were like the definition of everybody's beautiful but nobody's horny. Just saying words with their blank hot faces. At least Zendaya put some effort in.

Anyway 10/10. This is going in my top 5 movies of all time and is one of the best book to screen adaptations I have ever seen.

[sahashbelvanie]

Idea Thoughts

There are a couple of doodles I’ve been posting that have a fear-and-hunger tag under ‘em. They all belong to this one idea I cooked. Admittedly this is a weird alt extension of a previous idea I had, but F&H is such a mood. The idea got jump started when I saw some sick looking graves in Genoa’s Staglieno cemetery, but now that I’m reading some Abrahamic texts, the conception of Shaitan and spread of magic, coupled with general human hubris and the social revolutions against paganism are incredibly inspiring thematically.

Trying to think of this from a dungeon game POV, but like, what if the setting is in the Neo Dark Age wherein mankind is technologically advanced but kind of culturally and aesthetically regressive in some respects (totally Dune inspired). Post Dijjal (premature death) but pre Messiah. The city crypt is a Tower of Babel situation (more so Quranic speculation). Sorcerers grew afraid of what kind of life awaited them beyond the grave (Skeksis pilled), giving rise to an occult city state where souls are infused into stone and automata. May adjust the concept as I gather my thoughts, but the “players” spelunk(?) these ruins to gather souls to be purified for judgment. Exorcists. Voluntary clean up crew.

just spitting ideas

[wot-tidbits]

Wheel of Time plagiarized from Dune

With the coming of the new part of the awesome Dune movies, we again witness several people and fans to speculate on the similarities between Dune and WoT. There are many who even step further and claim that Robert Jordan was “inspired” (plagiarized) from Herbert. In that light, I want to bring back to your attention that Robert Jordan has spoken on that topic and he completely denies it.

INTERVIEW: May 19th, 2004 Rome Signing Report - Raven (Translated) ROBERT JORDAN Someone else asked if while writing the Aiel he got his inspiration from Herbert (re: the native inhabitants of Dune [the Fremen people]); he answered that it was not that, that the real source of inspiration is the Cheyenne people, originally shepherds and forced to became warriors and to flee into the desert when the white man came.

INTERVIEW: Nov 11th, 1998 MSN eFriends Interview (Verbatim) TIJAMILISM I love all the similarities between Frank Herbert's Dune and WOT. Was this intended? If so, are you a fan of his? ROBERT JORDAN No, there was no intention to make any similarities between Dune and my writings. And I am certainly a big fan of the original Dune novel. Although I doubt if I've read it since it first came out!

SOURCE.

The fast answer to these two quotes is “But of course he is obviously lying!”. To this day we still have no example of Robert Jordan lying to his fans. Moreover Robert Jordan publicly stated about using Tolkien in his writing and had no problem to admit it. Why he will admit about Tolkien but won’t do the same for Herbert? I do not see any reason to not believe Robert Jordan except the obvious “but it must be a lie”.

For first time we also can finally use RJ’s notes as proof that the similarity is coincidental.

ORIGINS OF |THE WHEEL OF TIME by Michael Livingston Aiel. The idea of people living in a harsh desert landscape beside a great chain of mountains is one that came to Jordan early: Altaii has a similar concept, and the Aiel are present in some of the earliest Wheel of Time notes: “They are infantry, in many ways like a cross between the Apache and the Zulu, with touches of Cheyenne. Physically, most are tall, with blonde or reddish hair and blue or blue-gray eyes most common.” To this he added elements of the culture of the Bedouins and the Irish—the latter, he said, at least initially intended as a joking comment against the tendency of novelists to all have the same kind of desert people (see Tuatha’an). Indeed, it’s nevertheless been commented upon that Jordan’s Aiel are strikingly similar to the Fremen from Frank Herbert’s Dune (1965). That similarity, however, is almost entirely the result of Herbert and Jordan using the same source materials of the real world: in particular, the ancient Israelites who wandered in the desert while awaiting their entry into what they believed was their Promised Land. Rand al’Thor plays a role akin to both Moses and, at least within Christian mythology, Jesus (as the Messiah who both splits and saves the Jews). Other notable Jewish parallels include the Aiel Tribes and, somewhat obviously, their name: Aiel derives from Israel. Their connections to Native Americans (particularly Plains Indians) should not be forgotten, however: from their rituals to their clan names, Jordan made frequent recourse to them.

[385bookreviews]

1.36.3 Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

SPOILERS

Pages: 477

Time Read: 11 hours and 16 minutes

Overall Rating: 4.5★ Storyline: 4★ Dialogue: 4.5★ Characters: 4★

Genre: Adult Science Fiction

TWs for the book: Violence, murder, death, addiction, incest, body horror, mental illness, war, su*c*de, drug use, possession, psychosis, colonization, self harm, sexism, drug abuse, torture, kidnapping, grief, religion/religious bigotry, adult/minor relationship

POV: Third person

Time Period/Location: Nine years after the events of Dune Messiah; On Arrakis and Salusa Secundus.

First Line: A spot of light appeared on the deep red rug which covered the raw rock of the cave floor.

Nine years after Paul Muad'Dib walked off into the desert, Stilgar guards Leto II and Ghanima, Paul's young twins. He contemplates how things in the Imperium got to this point, and if he should kill Leto and Ghanima to put an end to House Atreides and the pre-born. He ultimately decides against it.

Leto and Ghanima prepare to meet their grandmother, Lady Jessica for the first time. Alia, the current Regent of the Imperium, says she will meet her and Arrakeen and bring her back to Sietch Tabr to meet the twins. Leto and Ghanima discuss amongst themselves that Alia has become an Abomination, possessed by one of her past lives. Alia flies to Arrakeen and muses over why her mother has come to see her, suspecting ulterior motives. Jessica returns, and in a grand entrance to the people of the city, has her men, Gurney Halleck, and Stilgar capture people in the crowd to interrogate them. Alia is enraged she acted without her permission, but Jessica ignores her and talks to two of Alia's priests. One of them, a man named Javid, gives her pause. She notes that he hates the Atreides, and that Alia is involved with him, despite being married to Duncan Idaho. Jessica desires to go to Sietch Tabr immediately to meet her grandchildren, but is delayed by the pomp and ceremony of Alia's priests.

On Salusa Secundus, Irulan's sister, Wensicia of House Corrino, plots to have two Laza tigers kill the Atreides twins by gifting them specific robes the tigers will track. Her Bashar, Tyekanik, is opposed to the idea, but she commands him to obey, and to convert to the religion of Muad'Dib in order to persuade her son Farad'n to willingly become Emperor when her schemes fall into place.

Leto struggles with prescient dreams about an abandoned sietch called Jacurutu, and him and Ghanima both intensely fear becoming Abomination like Alia.

A mysterious blind figure known as the Preacher begins to appear in the city, preaching heresy against Alia and the Golden Elixir. Everyone begins to speculate that this man is actually Paul Muad'Dib, and that he didn't die when he wandered into the desert nine years before.

Alia recalls her possession. She cut off her ancestors' memories and pushed them down and away, not communicating with them or viewing them like the twins did. This left her susceptible to all of them overpowering her. To prevent this from happening, she allowed the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen to have partial possession of her. He commanded her to use the Bene Gesserit ways to stay eternally young, something highly forbidden, and he also commanded her to sleep with Javid.

Leto and Ghanima allow themselves temporary possession by the memories of Paul and Chani, and they seek advice from them. They conclude that they must follow Paul's Golden Path, the one he saw in his visions and ran off into the desert to escape.

The Preacher visits Farad'n on Arrakis to interpret his dreams. He refuses to tell Farad'n his interpretation, but reveals that Tyekanik bargained with the Preacher, who wanted to hear Farad'n's dreams in exchange for him commanding Duncan Idaho to come to their side.

Alia plots to abduct Lady Jessica and make it seem as though House Corrino was responsible, and Leto warns Jessica of this, and also tells her to cooperate with the abduction. Leto also warns Stilgar not to trust Alia, and that he sees three paths in his visions: that he will die outside of Sietch Tabr, that he will marry Ghanima, and that he will kill Jessica. Stilgar is highly disturbed by this conversation and tries to ignore it. Alia tells Duncan to kidnap Jessica, and he sees for the first time that she is possessed. He agrees anyways, and leaves.

Alia requests for Jessica to sit in the morning council to hear the supplicants. Alia says for Jessica to take the first petitioner, who is a musician who is in Arrakeen on a pilgrimage. He was jumped and had his money stolen and he appeals to be given money to return home. Jessica asks where he intends to go, and he says he intends to go to House Corrino. Jessica knows this is somehow a trap from Alia, and asks him to play music so she can decide what to do with him. He improvises a song and Alia becomes offended when he compares her to a death-spirit. Jessica allows him to go to House Corrino. Then a Fremen Naib, a former member of Paul's Fedaykin, appeals to them about how the terraforming of Dune is killing the sandworms and the spice trade. A priest runs forward insisting he be removed for wanting to appear under false pretenses. Alia silently commands the priest and he tries to shoot and kill Jessica under the guise of trying to kill the Fedaykin. Jessica and the man, Ghadhean, duck out of the way, and Ghadhean delivers a deadly blow to the priest. Jessica commands two servants to save the priests life so he can be questioned, but another member of Alia's court kills the priest before that can happen. Jessica accuses Alia of attempting to kill her, and calls her out for being possessed by the Baron. She then escapes with the help of Ghadhean and some other Fedaykin in the room. They hide her in an abandoned sietch, and Duncan Idaho comes to take her to safety, but actually abducts her and takes her to Salusa Secundus and House Corrino, defying both Alia and Lady Jessica in favor of the orders of the Preacher.

Leto and Ghanima know that House Corrino has sent animals to hunt and kill them. They sneak out into the desert at night and plot to make it seem as though Leto was killed so he might go find Jacurutu and lead humanity down the Golden Path. The Laza tigers find them, and they hide in a crevice in the rocks. They use the poisoned tips of their crysknives to kill the tigers by swiping their paws with them, but Ghanima is injured by their claws. Leto leaves on a sandworm and heads south, while Ghanima hypnotizes herself into believing that Leto is truly dead, and she won't believe anything else until he sees her again and says the words "Golden Path" in one of the ancient languages they both speak. She makes her way back to Sietch Tabr and sees a Fremen man and woman talking in the secret exit. The man has a control panel for the Laza tigers. Ghanima kills him with a poisoned needle, and takes the woman hostage.

Duncan and Jessica arrive on Salusa Secundus. Farad'n is displeased by the scheming of his mother, which Jessica and Duncan take advantage of. They make a deal that Jessica will teach Farad'n in the way of the Bene Gesserit, and she will also announce that she is there of her own free will so Alia cannot make it seem as though she were kidnapped. Farad'n banishes Wensicia, and then they begin to plot a marriage between Farad'n and Ghanima. Duncan tries to kill himself for some reason, and then disavows himself from the service of the Atreides.

Leto arrives at Jacurutu, but is caught by a Fremen named Namri, father of Javid, and Gurney Halleck. Gurney Halleck is under orders by Lady Jessica to make Leto undergo the spice trance, and to kill him if he shows signs of becoming Abomination.

Alia has Ghanima in her possession and tells her that she is going to marry Farad'n. Ghanima adamantly refuses, saying she will kill him for the death of Leto. Alia and Irulan try desperately to convince her, but she continues to refuse, until Alia agrees to let Ghanima kill Farad'n when they are betrothed. Irulan is appalled and tries to talk both of them out of it, but it is the only way in which Ghanima agrees.

Namri's niece Sabiha is assigned to guard Leto during his trances. Leto hypnotizes her and she falls asleep, allowing him to escape the sietch and hide out under the sand in the midst of a storm. Jacurutu was the old abandoned sietch of the Cast Out, a group of Fremen that stole others' water, but the Cast Out were still alive and weren't living there, so he travels further south.

Duncan returns to Alia, who is disappointed in him, but commands him to go back to Sietch Tabr to help guard Ghanima, who has returned there with Stilgar and Irulan. Duncan goes, but dodges the escort of one of Alia's guards, as he deduces that Alia was meaning for him to die on the trip there.

Leto encounters the Cast Out harvesting spice, and demands he be taken to their sietch, Shuloch, which is nothing more than a ramshackle village. There he discovers Sabiha, who was sent there as punishment by Namri for letting Leto escape. He goes out at night and covers his skin with sandtrouts, the first form of the sandworms. They engulf him and becoming a living stillsuit that make him much more powerful and more fast. He escapes Shuloch and makes a mission of destroying the qanats of the sietches to try and set back the terraforming by generations. Back in Jacurutu, Namri reveals to Gurney that him and his son Javid have been working for House Corrino. Gurney kills him and flees Jacurutu.

Months later, Leto, who has gained the power to control the sandworms and become nonhuman due to his bond with the sandtrouts, confronts the Preacher and his child guide. He kills the guide, and forces the Preacher to reveal his true identity as Paul Muad'Dib. Paul tries to talk Leto out of following the Golden Path, but Leto refuses.

Duncan tries to convince Stilgar to put Alia to a Trial of Possession. Stilgar insists upon him and his sietch remaining neutral. Javid walks in and Duncan kills him, forcing Stilgar to kill Duncan. He then remembers some of Leto's words to him about not trusting Alia and protecting Ghanima, and he takes his sietch and flees into the desert. Alia enlists one of Stilgar's former sietch members to hunt him down.

Leto and Paul find Gurney Halleck hiding out at a different sietch and bring him back to Shuloch with them. Gurney is stunned to see Leto's transformations and Paul alive. Stilgar tries to meet with the man assigned to hunt him down to work out a treaty between him and Alia, but Alia's other soldiers kidnap Ghanima and Stilgar kills the other Fremen.

Alia plans for Jessica and Farad'n's arrival for Ghanima's betrothal. She gazes out of her window, and sees the Preacher approaching. He gathers the crowd and she sends her priests down to grab him and bring him to her, and plans to have him enter at the same time as Ghanima, because she has figured out that he is Paul. Farad'n and Jessica arrive and come to watch the Preacher, but a mob breaks out in the street below. The priests try to grab Paul, but he is stabbed to death. Alia is enraged, and reveals to Jessica and Farad'n that that was Paul. The doors burst open and Leto comes in dragging Ghanima behind him. He says the words and Ghanima breaks from her hypnosis and asks him if their plan worked. Alia demands to know about the plan, and her and Leto fight, him throwing her around like a doll with his new super strength. He gives her two options: Trial of Possession, or she can throw herself out the window. She becomes fully possessed by all of the lives within her, mainly by the Baron, but she is able to fight them off long enough to throw herself out of the window.

Leto is crowned Emperor, and he makes Farad'n his Scribe. The Naibs swear fealty to him and worship him as the embodiment of Shai-Hulud. He speaks with Farad'n privately with Ghanima, asking him for his Sardaukar forces. Farad'n doesn't want to give them up, but Leto says that he will. He also says Farad'n will not be marrying Ghanima, but that he will marry her, and that Farad'n will secretly father the Atreides line going forward as Leto is no longer able to reproduce. Farad'n tries to argue, but Leto insists this will happen, and that he will rule for 4000 years and create a Golden Age, but all of his subjects will be weak and subservient. He renames Farad'n as Harq al-Ada, the historian that has been writing most of the passages throughout the book.

Leto II Atreides (Desert Demon/Ari/Batigh): Leto was definitely an unsettling part of the book. He says a lot of odd things before he starts taking spice, but afterwards, his chapters kind of drag on and on with a lot of his musings and movements through the world. Like with Paul, you think that he is trying to do the good and right thing, but after he takes the spice, he is sucked onto this Golden Path, and, because he is young and pre-born, he doesn't have the power to resist like Paul did.

Ghanima Atreides: She is my favorite character in the book and I really enjoyed all of her scenes.

Duncan Idaho (Hayt): Once again I am confused about a lot of Duncan's motive and actions in the ending of the book, if anyone has any clarification about this feel free to message me!

Stilgar: I really like how we got more of Stilgar's perspective in this book, seeing him question his loyalty and make certain connections. The twins, particularly Leto, really manipulated him, and it was interesting to see how in the first chapter he questioned killing the twins and in the last chapter he questioned if he should have done it when he had the chance.

Alia Atreides (St. Alia of the Knife/Coan-Teen/Abomination/Womb of Heaven): Alia's descent into madness was really interesting to watch. I feel like we never got to see Alia's true personality, which makes sense because she never had one. She tried to create her own sense of self to the point of her own detriment.

Storyline: I really enjoyed this book the most out of the first three. The second half of the book was quite a bit slower because a lot of it was Leto high on spice in the desert, but I liked the short chapters and the switching of the perspectives. It does get a little confusing with the weeks and months that pass with only vague mention, but it wasn't too much of an issue.

Quotes: -"Government and religion united, and breaking a law became sin. A smell of blasphemy arose like smoke around any questioning of governmental edicts. The guilt of rebellion invoked hellfire and self-righteous judgements. Yet it was men who created these governmental edicts."-Stilgar (p.6)

-"The joy of living, its beauty is all bound up in the fact that life can surprise you."-Leto II (p.83)

-"Atrocity is recognized as such by victim and perpetrator alike, by all who learn about it at whatever remove. Atrocity has no excuses, no mitigating argument. Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity. It is self-perpetuating upon itself--a barbarous form of incest. Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred."-The Apocrypha of Muad'Dib (p.117)

-"The past may show the right way to behave if you live in the past, Stil, but circumstances change."-Leto II (p.133)

-"What other function did the priesthood serve than to deny individual will?"-Stilgar (p.139)

-"It's beautiful, but it's not art. Humans create art by their own violence, by their own volition."-Duncan (p.143)

-"To suspect your own mortality is to know the beginning of terror; to learn irrefutably that you are mortal is to know the end of terror."-Jessica (p.154)

-"Good government never depends upon laws, but upon the personal qualities of those who govern. The machinery of government is always subordinate to the will of those who administer that machinery. The most important element of government, therefore, is the method of choosing leaders."-The Spacing Guild Manual (p.171)

-"Our civilization could well die of indifference within it before succumbing to external attack."-Jessica (p.172)

-"If you put away those who report accurately, you'll keep only those who know what you want to hear... I can think of nothing more poisonous than to rot in the stink of your own reflections."-Jessica (p.181)

-"Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends more and more to act exclusively in the interest of the ruling class--whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy."-Bene Gesserit Training Manual (p.221)

-"But one learns from books and reels only certain things can be done. Actual learning requires that you do those things."-Farad'n/Harq al-Ada (p.245)

-"Is your religion real when it costs you nothing and carries no risk? Is your religion real when you commit atrocities in its name? Whence comes your downward degeneration from the original revelation?"-The Preacher/Paul Muad'Dib (p.262)

-"To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty."-Leto II (p.314)

-"But the evil was known after the event!"-The Preacher/Paul Muad'Dib "Which is the way of many great evils."-Leto II (p.406)

-"The child who refuses to travel in the father's harness, this is the symbol of man's most unique capability. 'I do not have to be what my father was. I do not have to obey my father's rules or even believe everything he believed. It is my strength as a human that I can make my own choices of what to believe and what not to believe, of what to be and what not to be."-Leto II (p.449)

[fuckyeahisawthat]

Chani being sent in to infiltrate the palace and get close to Paul for plot reasons is something I could definitely see! Personally I would love for there to be two plots against Paul--a palace coup one and a Fremen one--that did not necessarily have the same goals; I think that has more potential to be interesting politically than having Irulan and Chani's forces working together. Which could mean they keep all the same characters who are in the book and also spend more time on the Fremen dissatisfaction with how things are going.

I tend to think ghola!Duncan will be in there purely because the angst potential is too powerful for Denis to resist. But who knows!

Said I was not gonna make Dune Messiah predictions but here I am making Dune Messiah predictions. Because I've been thinking about how smartly Part Two used all the characters around Paul to embody the different forces pulling on him, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see a similar thing in Dune Messiah.

I think Irulan's role will be more or less the same as in the book--she'll be plotting against him. She represents the interests of the Bene Gesserit and the other Great Houses--all the various other imperialist powers that Paul pissed off by upending their carefully laid plans.

Chani will definitely be there but she will not have spent the intervening years with Paul. It's much more of a punch in the feels for her to pop up as a plot twist partway through the story and for us to see their reunion happen in real time. I've seen some predictions that try to like...bend Paul and Chani's relationship back into a shape approximating what's in the book and I am saying now that that ain't gonna happen. Spending years hanging around the imperial palace trying to get pregnant and soothing your dictator bf's existential angst makes no fucking sense for movie Chani. She will be organizing against him. If she "forgives" him and spends any amount of time with him it'll be a ruse in order to spy on him or something like that. I think it would be a great source of internal conflict for her to discover along the way that she still harbors some compassion for Paul as a person, but there is no way she will compromise her political principles; that is the bedrock of her character. She will serve much the same role as she did in Part Two: she gives voice to Paul's conscience, his better instincts, and the interests of the Fremen independent of what various imperial powers want from them.

The twins will still be born, because that is central to why Paul does what he does at the end of the story, and that is part of "leaving the door open" for any fool who might take a crack at directing Children of Dune. (I think Children of Dune can work just fine as a movie but anyone who does it will be Not Denis and therefore setting themselves a formidable task.) But like...Paul and Chani only have to have sex once for that to happen.

The role that Chani plays for a large chunk of the book, of being Paul's loyal confidante and the person he allows himself to be most human around? That role is gonna be filled by Alia.

Alia...doesn't really have a lot to do, plot-wise, in the book of Dune Messiah, and this is the perfect place to put her. She is the only person in the Known Universe who maybe sort of a little bit understands what Paul's experience of reality is like now. She's the perfect conduit to voice all the philosophical stuff about prescience that's in the book but hard to work into casual dialogue. The book is full of people saying stuff about how Paul and Alia are so close they seem like two halves of the same person but we don't really see it that much on the page, and this is the perfect chance to add that stuff in. (I could very much see them borrowing not necessarily the actual plot points but some of the weird incesty vibes from the Children of Dune era.) I wouldn't be so surprised if some of the moments that happen between Paul and Chani in the book get handed off to Alia (blind ornithopter ride maybe??) and Chani gets a whole new storyline, independent of Paul, that's not in the book at all.

It kinda fits with the rhythm of the films, too. In Part One Paul's most important interpersonal relationship is with Jessica. In Part Two, he's in conflict with Jessica and his most important relationship is with Chani. In Messiah, I think he'll be in conflict with Chani and his most central relationship will be with Alia. (And ghola!Duncan probably, but I think that will be another surprise reveal that happens later in the story.) And at the end of Messiah, he won't end up in conflict with Alia exactly. But he will leave her behind.

[demon-of-the-ancient-world]

SO it's official. I'm writing a Big Bad Long Dune Fic. It will *probably* be called The Inner Eye (not a super original title I know), and will be yet another "what the actual fuck could happen after the end of the second movie" speculation fic, i.e. it's based mostly on Dune Messiah but with the changed movie elements woven together with that -- and possibly even some elements of Children of Dune in there too but I need to uh actually read that book first to know for sure. Probably won't be around anywhere *super* soon but hopefully I'll have at least the first chapter/couple chapters out by the end of the year? That's the goal anyway.

We shall see.

[spectrum-color]

“Genre” fans know that given Dunes status as a hugely influential cornerstone of SFF, there are a lot of characters who are suspiciously similar to Maud’Dib himself. Some are blatant knockoffs, while others are more lovingly inspired. Two of my favorite series that I regularly blog about have their own characters who remind me suspiciously of Paul: Daenerys Targaryen (possibly unintentional) and Rand al’Thor (no way RJ didn’t notice.) Now the real question: who reminds you more of Paul.

Dany propaganda-The surviving heir to a once powerful House brought down by their political enemies that she is working to restore who finds herself living among a people stereotyped by the outside world as brutal savages, but as she integrates into their culture and begins to show omens of power, they come to see her as a prophesied leader and eventually consolidate behind her to fight for her cause (admittedly there is some Winds speculation there but it where the story was set up to go.) She takes a fearsome legendary beast as a mount and bases many of her decisions off of a series of visions. She is disturbed by the violence and death that comes with her campaign and fears that she’s a monster.

Rand propaganda-A young man born to a mother who planned on fulfilling an ancient prophecy with his existence, backed by a cunning member of an powerful but mysterious all female organization who have special abilities, unique as a male wielder of the same power as them while their training is typically reserved for women. He is adopted as a leader and messiah from an ancient prophecy by the insular warrior people of the desert who are regarded as violent savages by the rest of the world (and who hold water as sacred.) He develops a strong personal connection to his new people, who select leaders of their tribe find out through vision quests were once peaceful in long ago history but were hardened by brutal events that forced them into their current unforgiving homeland, and falls in love with a young woman who teaches him about her culture, though he also ends up involved with a princess. They lead a crusade out of their harsh homeland to help him form his empire, where he is alternately feared and worshipped, though he is tormented by his destiny and the violence he is both forced to commit and (much more prevalently) the violence committed in his name. In the end, he reclaims his humanity after securing the future and disappears.

[onewomancitadel]

I've thought about it more and I think what the changed ending of Part Two achieves is making it more obvious that the concubines will not be remembered as wives; Irulan writes the histories in the book which subverts what Jessica says to Chani. So it manages to preserve an element from the original story in a more transparent way.

Of course on the whole I would say that ending is an attempt to include more female agency (Irulan is implied to rule as Empress; she's Imperial Consort in the books) which I thinkkkk they were trying to get at with Paul saying to Chani that he wants to be equal to her, so the romantic tragedy is more pronounced considering he is taking Irulan as a key to the throne and then desires to keep Chani on the side as a concubine and not marry her. I like that there's a bit of an element of performance there (he desires to be equal) and then of course with Irulan this will probably imply she advises Paul in the capacity in which she advised her father in the film.

I also do like that you still get the Jessica-Chani mirroring, in that they've handled their situations very differently this time around. Jessica is soothing/speaking to Alia (a product of her union with Leto) and Chani is returning to Shai-hulud.

Anyway, there's more speculation about Dune Messiah to be had (maybe they won't even include the twins at all? It doesn't seem like any other adaptations are on the table) and given that there were things I thought were definite inclusions which didn't get included then elements I expected to be erased were included, it's anybody's game now.

[classicalliberalleague]

Dune reveals once again people don't know how to read.

The release of the second part of Villeneuve’s Dune has led to some speculation about whether and when we will get a movie for Dune Messiah (and possibly stories beyond that). However, this brings up the question of why we even have Dune Messiah in the first place. By itself, Dune was a perfect story that did everything it needed to do. Dune told a story that showed how power attracts the…

[zswagcentral]

A non-chronological list of rumored future Zendaya projects that I've heard floating around

Ronnie Spector Biopic: She was fully signed on to this, and pre-production had began I think. However, there have been no updates since Ronnie Spector's death in 2022. I've heard rumors that it's been shelved, but nothing official.

On one hand, I believe this would be a good vessel for a potential Oscar nom for Z. On the other hand, musician biopics are very hit or miss, and if they're not great , they're usually abysmal. She would need a REALLY strong creative team involved with this. Furthermore, there are so many biopics in the works for the next couple years (Bruce Springsteen, Janis Joplin, Dione Warwick, another Michael Jackson one, etc. etc.), it might actually be pretty difficult to stand out even with a good one.

Cleopatra: Denis Villanueve has all but confirmed he will be working on a Cleopatra film, and a different adapted sci-fi film after Dune. Apparently there was a leak that showed Zendaya was signed on to play Cleopatra... as well as the random AI trailer on YouTube that got a bunch of attention for some reason.

Look, I am beyond hyped at the idea of Denis making Z the lead in his next movie. I think she's earned it; and I love that he has that level of faith in her. HOWEVER, for obvs reasons this is terrible casting (if you use your frustration at this potential casting to be anti-black anywhere in my mentions, you're getting blocked).

My hope is that maybe it's just unfounded rumors (I mean, nothing about the potential movie has been confirmed other than that Denis is making it. Remember how she was rumored to be the female lead in Megalopolis?), or perhaps he wants her to lead in a different project of his, or worse comes to worse, maybe she'll be cast as Arsinoe (Cleopatra's equally interesting, entirely underrated, half sister who was highly suspected to be biracial). Obvs the ideal is for Hollywood to cast ACTUAL Egyptian actors... but reality is, the lead actors will most likely be American and bankable with mass appeal.

9 to 5: Apparently Jennifer Anniston is looking to make a remake of the 80s comedy of the same name, starring Z, Ariana Grande and Sydney Sweeney.

On one hand, I think a big budget comedy would also be great for her. She has real comedy chops that she hasn't really gotten to show post-disney (most likely, she'd play Lily Tomlin's character). And while we're all sick of remakes, I think the OG film is far removed enough from the target audience of this remake, that it could actually work.

Downside, Hollywood comedies are usually hit or miss for me lately, and I think Jennifer Anniston's idea of comedy is really outdated compared to what is considered funny now (if you look at the script of the OG movie, there is ALOT that would need to be updated).

Also, there really isn't anything concrete about this project. Just a rumor that JA wants to make it. I don't believe any of the named actresses have shown any interest yet.

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Anyway, lmk if I missed any. If there are any rumors/speculations you've heard with projects she might be tied to...

I understand her schedule will be absolutely packed this year with filming/promo for Euphoria, the drama, spiderman, the odyssey, Dune Messiah (jfc, when will they even get time to plan this wedding? lol), but once she's completely free of Euphoria/S*m L*vinson I'm genuinely excited to see what her filmography will look like beyond long-running shows and franchises 🙏