#flayed hopper

[greenfiend]

For those still in doubt that Will flayed/influenced Hopper in ST3…

So when someone flays another basically what happens is, as Mike states they “[take] over their mind” and “basically become him”.

Now, it’s very interesting how in ST3 we see Hopper act childish- but exclusively in ST3. The very same season Will desperately holds onto his childhood.

It’s suspiciously very meta for him to say lines like this. It’s intentional. The writers didn’t just forget how to write Hopper. We are supposed to notice this abrupt shift in his persona and overall demeanour.

As Will says, he likes to hide. Interestingly enough Will and him share that in common. Note the “only used me when he needed me”. Same is true for Will using Hopper. Hopper still has moments where he is his “normal” self.

Whenever Hopper is “serious”, it’s really him. Whenever he’s emotional and kid-like, he’s under Will’s influence.

The Clues

So, let’s start by going over some of the major clues, shall we?

Him saying this to a Byers of course. Interesting writing choice.

The original script tells us that Will wears colourful clothes. That’s his style and he stands out because of it. Now it seems to be Hopper’s style all of a sudden too. It’s even noted by officer Powell here that it’s surprising to see Hopper dress this way.

Play these transition scenes. The first one has Lucas asking Will for permission to take a shower, then we are shown Hopper showering. I suppose Will granted Hopper said permission. Then of course we have El asking “how can you tell when someone’s a host?” afterwards the first person we see is Hopper himself. A perfect example of a host. They answered her question!

We are often shown Hopper acting childish. Look at how he’s holding his pillow! We never saw him doing this in seasons prior. Then we have Murray outright calling him a “manbaby” and “children”.

When “Hopper” orders an alcoholic beverage he struggles with the pronunciation. Reminiscent of a young person attempting (but failing) to appear older and more mature.

We even are shown him being fed lines that came from a Byers.

Now for the major clue. Why oh why did they show Will while Mike explained that Hopper threatened him? Not just Will, but Will moving pieces on a board. He’s essentially controlling things! Bending to his will, if you will. I mean it makes sense. We know Will was very jealous of Mike and El and complained about them! Just like Hopper, he wants them to break up. Perhaps even more than Hopper actually does.

Then we have Mike referring to him as crazy! That’s their special word, so naturally “Hopper”/Will does not take this well. Look at his face! He looks betrayed.

The References

It’s extremely subtle, but we have another Byler/Jopper parallel here. Earlier in 3x01, we see Joyce holding Hopper’s left hand, very reminiscent of Mike holding Will’s right hand last season. Then we have Hopper communicating in Morse Code as he and Mike fight to lock/unlock the car door several times. Notice how we have a shot of his left hand doing the locking of the door? Same one Joyce held. I’ve tried to work out what he’s communicating but I’m falling short. If anyone wants to take a stab at it please let me know your findings!

Then we have the Back to the Future references. Again very subtle, but there nonetheless. As we know, Will is compared to Marty Mcfly a fair bit, ever since his very first appearance!

Do you recall the plot of Back to the Future? Marty travels to the past, accidentally changes some things, then has to bring his parents back together! Will does the same thing… through Hopper!

And just like Marty… things get a tad bit awkward…

Now keep in mind… these scenes all occur within the same episode. While trying to set up his mother and Hopper together through “flaying” Hopper, Will accidentally gets his mom interested in him (as Hopper). That is why he refers to Murray as “Freud” aka the Psychologist who created the theory of “the Oedipus Complex”. This is also why Robin drops that line about of the movie.

So… How?

If you recall back in ST2, Hopper is spat on by something and was trapped in the UD. Will is able to sense him and thus is connected to him. Hopper is a part of Will’s hive mind. I also believe they may be biologically father and son… but that’s for another post.

The Implications of All of This…

So what does this mean? I’m not fully sure, but it seems like Will has some abilities here. I have no idea if it’s future Will manipulating things, or present Will and I’m not so sure how aware he is of all of this.

But in regards to Mike… here are some funny implications…

ST3 shows us a Mike with a peculiar fascination with bears. Bears seem to be associated with Will and “bear” has a specific other definition…

Now the icing on the cake with this is the fact that Mike has made comments regarding Hopper’s weight multiple times! So, he’s well aware of Hopper’s “bear” status. Mike shows interest in bears because he’s interested in Will. Will essentially is a “bear” while he is puppeteering Hopper.

It’s also nice to know that Will actually did get that hug he yearned for from Mike. We just didn’t realize it. Mike and “Hopper” hugged a tad longer than normal too while Will was facing them of course.

To conclude, I know this theory sounds so silly and I sound insane, but I swear to you… this is real. I may be wrong about some aspects of this but I know Will influenced Hopper in some way. Remember though, it’s not a constant thing. Will only “used him when he needed to”. Will experienced being flayed in ST2, then he became the “flayer” in ST3.

If you have any questions or comments about this theory feel free to send me an ask! These things are fun to think and talk about.

[greenfiend]

And Joyce was “trying to bang” Hopper the “manbaby” aka Will.

What is going on 😨

Last Troll of the Day

In an alternate reality, years ago, or years past, in a world once turned upside down, then right side up, Nancy is Jonathan's mother. #ick :-/

2925 103125

[morganbritton132]

Eddie follows up his Tiktok of an old home video of him sick with a current video of him sick. He’s congested as hell and his voice is practically gone when he croaks out, “Don’t marry teachers. They carry the plague.”

“It’s allergies. You have allergies.”

Eddie coughs pathetically and then pans the camera over to the other side of the bed. Steve, who will get a fever if you look at him too hard, has his back to Eddie.

Eddie is not reaching for him but Steve says anyways, “Don’t touch me or I will melt like a spider made of people.”

“…What does that even mean?!!!”

[shinpikurage]

You know, the ending of season 3 is so telling to me

We have Mike smiling because he and Will are talking again, and being happy that Will won't replace him in California (Like he replaced Will with El)

And the next moment, Mike denying that he loves El, telling her it was nothing, and the *kiss*, open eyes, no reciprocation. After, Mike doesn't look surprised or flustered in a good way, he looks confused, scared

For me, it feels like he had a realization, that he might not love El like he previously thought he did, he doesn't love him the way he should, the way she wants him too

And then Hoppers letter? Yeah he's talking about how much he misses his daughter, but it also feels like Wills feelings about Mike

Playing board games until it's late, Will and Mike haven't done that in months because he's busy with El

Eating junk food, typical friend stuff that Will doesn't get to do anymore

And that Hopper understands, because El is growing, maturing, but he misses her. Also goes back to how Will feels, he feels like everyone is maturing and he's being left behind because they are busy with their girlfriends, something he will never go through (plus him wanting to be a kid because that was taken away from him from his father, the UD and the Mind Flayer)

For me, this Hopper-Will/Eleven-Mike parallel is even more cool if we believe in the "Will is controlling Hopper" theory

Anyways, Season 3 was the season Will realized he would be left behind because of his trauma and Queerness, and the one Mike realized he might not love his girlfriend after all

[0aurelion-sol0]

(So before we start with this theory & new post of mine for a long time since my semi-hiatus, I want to repeat that I do not want any new informations about season 5 or anything related to it whether true or not, same for any leaks, set photos whether true not. I ESPECIALLY DO NOT WANT THOSE!!!!! or interviews that are the slightest bit too revealing UNLESS I haven't looked at it myself and even then, easy on any of these. I know something minor about this season & have seen two things about it but that's it, nothing more.

These theories & analyses might be proven wrong or false already or in the future but I don't care, I do this for fun & as a way to explore different possibilities about the story that can be interesting or could have been at least. I hope everyone understands this & will not be a party pooper towards me just to have a "GOTCHA!!!" moment... With that said, let's get into it, shall we ?)

_________________________________________

The Thessalhydra:

Back To The Future &... The Beginning.

_________________________________________

For this first post, I wanted to go back to season 1 as I found it was fitting to explore one of the earliest major fandom theories of Stranger Things since it's final season is on it's way.

"The Thessalhydra as the final threat from the Upside Down."

And while at first everyone at the end of Season 1 thought, obviously, that this creature would be the next threat in it's second season, the Mind Flayer poked it's head and said "not yet!", "I need to experiment with my minions first!" with a Vecna also slowly planning his own armageddon as well. And as much as I don't like him (& his season... 😒), he's here and he proves to be useful from time to time when it comes to theories or analyses because he still part of the show & can help up in terms of parallels, themes & plot.

But now, let's remember the last episode of season 1! The boys playing their new campaign about the Thessalhydra taking a similar turn to the one they did at the beginning of the first season (*wink wink*) & this time Will does a 14 (*wink wink*) & kills the Thessalhydra with a fireball. (*wink wink*)

Now if this wasn't a tv show with multiple seasons, I would tell you that the boys obviously staged the whole thing for Will to win so that he can be happy and because they're all very nice friends & also not repeat the same game at risk of making him vanish again especially if the monster this time is the size of the Empire State Building, (sorry with the luck these characters have, I simply can't believe they can have a happy ending such as this one. WILL HAD UD SLUGS INSIDE HIS BODY, WTF GUYS???!!!) but this is a tv show with multiple seasons. And now, it has definitely become foreshadowing for what's to come.

Especially since in it's fourth season now, we basically have Nancy having an apocalyptic vision of Hawkins with a large creature which is describe by having a "gaping mouth".

And if you look at her face here, she definitely did not find that thing beautiful in the slightest, though she is probably more terrified about the fact that she saw most of her family dead. 🤭

But would you look at that ?! What creature in ST fits that description ? Quite a lot actually but obviously you know which one I'm talking about, yes The Thessalhydra! And oh my god, look at what I've found on the Forgotten Realms Wiki:

"Thessalhydras were hideous and terrifying creatures. They had a large, reptilian body with a long tail, 18 feet (5.5 meters) in length, which ended in a pair of large, sharp pincers. It had no head, instead eight hydra-like heads, each about 6 feet (1.8 meters) in length, surrounded a gaping mouth filled with teeth and acidic saliva."

Well well, after that, it's difficult to argue what else could that large creature be!

End of theory! Bye guys! Thank you for reading!

...

Except I also can do that... 😅 Because I have reason to believe that this future Thessalhydra is a creature we have seen before. One whose campaign mirrors another campaign from the same season.

Yes. I have reasons to believe that the Thessalhydra and The Demogorgon from Season 1 are one and the same.

Do you remember this ?

Of you course you remember this, what a stupid question. It's part of a series of trauma that affected us deeply as a fandom, for different reasons (at least for me) but it proves to be an even more important parallel than we originally thought.

I don't need to tell you about the thematic importance of the parallel or what it means for the characters, we've all already gone through that already, I am more interested in it's significance for the plot.

So El kills The Demogorgon & Henry the same way. By disintegrating them. But that action doesn't seem to end the same way for the both of them & El herself.

What is interesting is that the three of them dissapear in some form, Henry into an Upside Down gate but ends up falling forever through the Hellscape (a different dimension than Dimension X/The Upside Down though likely connected, the same way that Dimension X & The Upside Down probably are the same thing but it's not fully confirmed yet.) before ending into Dimension X/The Upside Down in some way. And we all know what happens from here on out, at least what we know of it since Season 4.

I have a theory for why he ended up there, what is the nature of that place and did not simply disintegrate like The Demogorgon who I also do not think simply disintegrated but we will not go fully through that in this post.

El though ends up in the Upside Down after being taken by the disintegrated part of the Demogorgon or by disintetrating herself (though it didn't really seem that way to me) which I think is probably because the Demogorgon used it's powers on her since he could open gates or send anyone to the UD in season 1. (We will also get into that but not in this post, same for why he was so different in Season 1, both physically and in the way he behaved.)

But the Demogorgon, from what we saw simply disintegrated and we never heard or saw any significant clue of it's existence again. Which again leads me to believe, if we follow the logic of what happened to Henry & to El in some way, it is still alive, somewhere.

And I believe personally that it is in the Hellscape right now, and in the same way that Henry got electrocuted while free falling in that place which marked the start of it's transformation as Vecna, I think the same is happening to The Demogorgon and is slowly being transformed into the Thessalhydra.

I think that El when she disintegrate something, she sends them into the Hellscape which is connected to Dimension X/The Upside Down as some sort of passage for someone who didn't enter via a gate the "original" or "right" way per say. Because being launched into Dimension X/The Upside Down in a state or in a way such as this one could be fatal so it's some sort of transition in a way.

And while Henry technically went through a gate, he was disintegrated before it's opening & that gate couldn't last more than a few seconds which I think is a result of the barrier between the worlds not being thin enough. Plus I think El gave way more strength into Henry than she did the Demogorgon with her powers which in turn also opened a gate behind him.

So as a result, he went into the Hellscape as some sort of "safer" transition between the two dimensions since as we know, and I hope, no gate before that has been opened in Hawkins before.

And as for the Demogorgon, again I think it's a point of it fighting back against El & using it's own powers against her plus again El didn't seem to launch the same type of strength of her power as she did onto Henry since she was standing much closer to the Demogorgon than she did Henry while also using an important memory of hers to defeat him.

Now as to why we haven't seen that Demogorgon or Thessalhydra in ST again, I think it's because the Hellscape was connected to the original version of The Upside Down, Dimension X in a way that it's not anymore with The Upside Down because what happened November 6th, 1983 changed more than just the environment but also the workings of those dimensions since the barriers between the dimensions are now thinner.

So I see 3 possibilities for the Demogorgon, to me it is still free falling through the Hellscape being slowly turned into the Thessalhydra or somehow ended up in Dimension X instead which is still connected to The Upside Down but is seperate it's own plane in some way since The Mind Flayer still come from there or is in a version of The Upside Down that is still Dimension X outside of UD Hawkins.

But still, some things are still up for speculation for how exactly it all works out in the end.

As I said at the beginning of the post, you take Nancy's description and apply to other creatures in ST like the Meat Flayer/Spider Monster (whatever you wanna call it) of Season 3, a gaping mouth with multiple hydra-like heads who in a way also gets defeated by fireballs via Lucas and it's fireworks which we see Will throw with him but the Demogorgon also fits that description with it's own gaping mouth blooming like a flower whose petals could look like different mouths coming from it.

And in a way, it would be ironic for The Demorgorn from season 1 to be The Thessalhydra because if we follow the boys' campaign, the very thing that took Will back then, that he couldn't defeat would also be the same thing he will defeat in it's final season as some sort of karmic consequence for The Demogorgon & The UD as a whole but also as a way to tie it's final season with it's first season in a more concrete way.

It started with Will and it will end with Will.

[cypherheartnokey]

@greenfiend this reminded of your flayed Hopper theory!

What if Will “changed something” here? We’ve talked about how it’s possible that Will or someone manipulated Mike into saying “I love her” about El.

It may also refer to other changes in the timeline that might be occurring simultaneously

LMAO CAUGHT RED HANDED

THEY PUT THE SAME REACTION CLIP IN TWICE IN THE "I LOVE HER" SCENE

[jumpedthenfell-13]

In case anyone is interested in how Robin’s doing by chapter 4 of this fic

But Nancy isn’t here now, and Nancy can’t save her.

Robin curls up, letting the pain wash over her even as El shouts her name repeatedly. A choked gasp comes out as a sob, a quiet cry coming as a scream.

There are going to be 15 chapters of this. It’s so over for her

[stevie-petey]

NOW YOU’RE A STRANGER (AND I’M STILL JULY)

season three of "come home"

a lot can change in a year, and when summer comes to hawkins, you think you're finally okay with this idea. you've settled things with jonathan, nancy is now your friend, and steve harrington calls you angel. then dustin intercepts a secret russian code and your grand plans of you and robin teasing steve all summer, and maybe even falling in love, all come crashing down. (meanwhile all steve wants to do is ask you out). (but the russians complicate things). (as usual).

episode one: suzie, do you copy?

you help nancy sneak through jonathans window, the party uses you for your "in" with steve, and you sorta become the reason dustin almost blinds lucas. meanwhile, steve tries, and fails, to make you his girlfriend (this will happen all summer), but have no fear ! dustin intercepts a russian code and makes everything even harder for everyone. what a sweet brother <3

episode two: the mall rats

dreams are weird, billy is a hitchhiker, and hopper flirts with joyce in front of you (youre not sure which is scarier), somehow robin knows russian and has genius ears, you get caught in an awkward breakup showdown, and you shamefully are shocked when you discover that hawkins is anything but normal. you would think youd be a pro at this already, but at least steve is hot and really good at sneaking through windows.

episode three: the case of the missing lifeguard

dustin blackmails you for $5 and then dubs steve as boyfriend material for you, robin cracks yet another russian code, you all almost waterboard yourselves after sneaking onto the mall's roof, you have a sexy nervous breakdown, and jonathan takes you for a drive in his sick car.

episode four: the sauna test

dustin has some brotherly concern for you (dont tell anyone though), steve is offended you dont think he can fight, nancy gets upset during therapy hour, robin encourages child endangerment, erica becomes your hero, and you lose your lunch on hawkins makeshift tower of terror (aka sketchy russian elevators).

episode five: the flayed

you have the worst birthday of your life, you almost strangle steve with your bare hands and then later get snot all over him, erica is your savior, dustin is doing his best, robin starts to suspect things, and the russians have opened a gate to the upside down. its all pretty miserable tbh. but hey ! at least steve won a fight !

episode six: e pluribus unum

things get hot and heavy in the face of death, mean russians kidnap your hot almost-boyfriend, you have a philosophical discussion about nerdiness with the kids, acid becomes your new favorite weapon, and steve and robin try drugs together. yippee !

episode seven: the bite

steve and robin are your nightmare blunt rotation, you manage to escape a russian lair: mario cart style, you learn that therapy sessions are fun in public bathrooms, steve places your brother on the russian fbi most wanted list, el probably just killed a bunch of people (deserved), and reunions with jonathan are always special when one of you is gravely injured.

episode eight: the battle of starcourt

jonathan becomes a certified surgeon, hopper returns and is oddly sentimental (wonder what that could mean !), you and dustin show off your musical theater talents, the mind flayer becomes a track star, fireworks become weapons, and really a lot just happens so suddenly it gives you whiplash. dont worry though, the rest of your summer involves painful goodbyes and the scary realization that youre growing up. absolutely disgusting. but at least steve gets to kiss you whenever now, so hooray for that ! side note: you keep making promises to people, surely there wont be narrative foreshadowing as a result !

SET BETWEEN SEASONS 3 AND 4

episode nine: the good

the party battles the horrors of high school and leave you stranded, tw: applying for college is harder than fighting literal demons (you would know, youve done it), jonathan joins your nightmare blunt rotation, max worries you, and steve solidifies his position of Best Boyfriend in the World as you slowly fall apart (though is anyone really surprised ??).

STATUS: complete

season three title based on this song x

blurbs set within the "come home" universe can be found here x

“COME HOME” SERIES MASTERLIST

this is a part of my stranger things rewrite, “come home”, and other seasons can be found linked above :)

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

How do you feel about the El dying theories coming out, especially because of the Mike and Hopper scene leaks we’ve been seeing? I’m trying to stay optimistic but it’s really not looking good for her :/

I think it'd be incredibly bleak. She's gone through it her entire life, and she deserves some happiness. I know life doesn't always go that way, but this isn't real life. It's a story.

Besides, I feel like if El died then Hopper would look just as upset as Mike, if not more so. The guy lost one daughter already. Losing another one would be devastating to him.

I think the only thing going for this theory is the fact that the Duffers claimed they originally wrote El dying at the end of season 1 (before they expanded it into a multi-season series). I think they moved past that being a satisfying ending though by faking her death back then. It'd be like killing Hopper off. They already did it only to reveal he wasn't dead.

The characters I think are at real risk of dying are:

Henry (naturally) Dr. Owens (if he's even in this season) Murray Every member of the Wheeler family besides Mike (especially if that fan theory of them being related to the Creels ends up true)

I think the vast majority of people on that memorial will be everyone who died to the supernatural elements of the story, now that the town will likely find out what happened. People like Barb, Bob, Henry's season 4 targets, and all the flayed in season 3 will finally have their stories known.

I think it's likely that Mike has this scene with Hopper because he's getting ready to leave Hawkins and is having trouble letting go of what happened. So he goes to visit the memorial to think, and then Hopper sees him there and tries to help. My big question is where is the Party as he's dealing with this? Where is his best friend (and maybe more), Will?

I think there's a lot more to this than people are thinking. It's just one little piece of a larger epilogue. For all we know, this is a quick bit of a larger montage, much like the end of season 3. We're just obsessing over it because it's the biggest piece of the ending we have.

[greenfiend]

I don’t think that scene with Hopper and Mike will be what any of us expect tbh. I think we need to think more outside of the box- think big twists ahead. It’s not going to be as simple as “bad guy defeated… some characters died… everyone heals etc etc”.

Sure character deaths may happen, but a lot of them have somehow returned. How? Why? Are any “deaths” truly permanent within this show? Why does Vecna say they live on? How? Something is going on there…

Just have to add… why does Hopper look like ST3 Hopper? The one that clearly was somehow influenced by Will… the immature macho man. The one that “died” but then somehow returned. (We know he looks like ST3 Hopper because of the facial hair).

[miyahhhhhhhhh]

i find it really interesting that mike and el have never actually worked together to defeat anything throughout the entire series. even in season 3, when mike and el were grouped, el primarily (not the entire time, but most of the time) fought independently while the rest devised plans. the show consistently emphasizes how el can fight firmly on her own. she does not need mike, nor has she relied solely on mike. even her and max have figured things out together.

and as max says it in s3:

lucas: we kick their flayed butts

max: you mean el will kick their butts?

of course, this is not to say that el should not be surrounded by the people she loves; this is from an objective standpoint based on how they fight together.

the only time we remotely see this is in season 1. the main objective is to find will; it was never really about mike and el working together.

yet, it’s clear that every other couple in the canon seems to shine when they’re together. look at joyce and hopper, jonathan and nancy, and even lucas and max—they’ve all faced challenges side by side, battling monsters. i mean, as murray wisely points out, shared trauma is the real shit.

you know what ship is actually paired together? the ones who've been shown to go through shit together? the ones who bounce ideas off one another based on their shared experiences? the ones who can finish each other's sentences? MIKE AND WILL.

and we're only gonna see more of it in season 5.

[thefirstlioveyou]

(this was initially written for another post but oh well)

mike and the void, mike being the key, mike being the heart — these are all interesting things. but have you noticed the hidden pattern in all of them?

there's a distinct a pattern of something being said/done w mike that you easily dismiss or don't understand at the beginning of a season (or somewhere) until later in the same season it gets recontextualized with someone/thing else to distract you, while still simultaneously speaking in code

mike sees el in s2 -> we wouldn't have yet known the pattern of only people connected supernaturally/in the UD seeing el at the time this happened. s3 they remind the audience mike did in fact sense el when talking about a flayed!billy, just in case you forgot. but don't worry about it. not relevant at all.

el reaches to touch mike's face in the void in s2 -> we don't know she accesses memories through touch until it happens with terry later in the same season. mike was inches away from being the first person we saw the memories of but the writers didn't want that. not yet.

getting to mike is "The Key" is said in s3 while hopper is sat next to a bunch of keys -> something someone else calls "The Key" is opening doors to another dimension is then later mentioned in the same season.

"we have to drive a stake through's vecna's heart" "if he has a heart" -> mike's identified as the heart -> "don't stop, you're the heart." -> "her heart stopped" all in s4

something in s5 is gonna recontextualize mike's entire character

[queenie-ofthe-void]

The Babysitter Chronicles - Byers

Steve POV 5+1 (immediately follows s2) || wc: 3.9k || cws: check tags || full fic ao3

Henderson || Mayfield pt 1 / Mayfield pt 2 || Sinclair || Wheeler || Byers || +1 Hopper

Can be read as a standalone

~~~

Steve’s filled with dread, standing in front of the Byers’ front door at 6:30am on a Saturday morning. Out of all the kids’ parents, he’s pushed Joyce off as long as he could manage. But he’d promised Mike he’d try, and according to Jonathan, this is the best time to catch her.

That doesn’t change the fact it’s not even light out, and a boy she probably hates is about to knock on her door. Hell of a way to start the day.

He knocks anyway.

Joyce opens the door in a soft grey t-shirt and baggy black sweats. Her hair is brushed through, mascara coats her long lashes, and the smell of fresh coffee wafts through the open door. At least he can find small consolation in the fact she’s been up for a while.

“Hi Joyce, I mean Ms. Byers,” he stumbles, off to a great start. “Sorry to catch you so early but–” 

“No,” Joyce interrupts, voice firm. 

Steve stands there, mouth hanging open around an unfinished sentence. He watches as her eyes harden. She squares her shoulders and stands straight-backed and tall, only reaching about Steve’s shoulder. Joyce Byers in all her fury still makes him feel small, like maybe this was a bad idea.

“I’m sorry, Steve,” Joyce says. “But I know why you’re here. And the answer is no.”

“Oh,” he responds lamely, deflating even further. 

Her voice is soft, but she’s unyielding. “The kids like you, and I know their parents are ok with you watching them. Which is fine, for their kids.”

She pauses, and Steve knows what’s coming. Mentally prepared himself for the worst-case scenario. All of Dustin’s logical arguments and Lucas’ hype talks couldn’t prepare him for how thoroughly Joyce flays him open.

“But, Steve, I would never trust you with my kids.”

Even though he's desperate to run, he plants himself like a tree on her front stoop. He's trying not to be that guy. The kids deserve the best version of him, and on some level, he knows cutting out the bad parts of himself includes letting Joyce Byers drag him through the mud.

He tries to hold her gaze, really he does. Her dark eyes are filled with conviction, but he can see the gentleness to them as well. Almost sad, like he’s making her do this to him. 

Joyce grips the door, knuckles white with tension. She takes a step out onto the front stoop, forcing Steve to take a measured step back. The door stays cracked and the smell of burning toast reaches his nose. Nausea rises in his throat.

“They shouldn’t have even been in those tunnels in the first place,” she says, voice growing louder as she gains momentum. “We asked you to watch them, we trusted you with them, and they still almost got killed! And I know, I know, you helped Jonathan and Nancy last year– saved them from that, that thing crawling out of our walls.”

Her eyes flicker over her shoulder, like the demogorgon’s still haunting her house. He follows her gaze, like Billy could still be standing in her living room with a blood-stained, toothy smile.

She sighs, exasperated. At her wits end for being pushed into a conversation she’s probably been dreading for weeks, since it seems she knew what he wanted. “But you’d be with my baby, my Will, everyday. He’s had bullies since kindergarten, and it’s only gotten worse since everything.

“He doesn’t deserve more bullies. And from what I’ve heard, you’re no different. Just like your father.”

Steve flinches– can’t help himself– the sentence ringing through his head.

Just like your father.

“No, no I’m not, I swear,” he chokes on the words as she steam rolls his pathetic lamentations.

“You’ve pushed my boys– and kids just like them– around your whole life, making them feel small for having less money, less friends, less stuff. Every time Jonathan came home with a new bruise or bloodied knees, how do I know that wasn’t you?”

Steve’s watering eyes are fixated on the small, furious woman before him, flushed with a rage familiar to any decent mother protecting her kids. He’s trying so hard to hear her, but his head is filled with static and his mouth feels stuffed with cotton. Steve wipes his hands down the front of his pants, then shoves them in his pockets.

“You called my boy queer! Something I’m sure you heard from your father. I saved for months to get him that camera for his birthday and you just smashed it, like it was nothing. Like we’re nothing.”

Neither of them notice the pair of shadows moving beyond the door frame in the living room. 

“I cannot allow someone like you around my boys,” she hammers home. This is what Nance meant by a thesis statement he thinks deliriously. “Sue and Karen might be alright with it, but my answer is no.”

Steve sniffles and nods stiffly as turns to leave, hoping to at least make it to his car before the tears start. He knows he deserves what she’s said, knows the truth of it in his gut, but he’s stood here long enough. Now it’s time to run and hide, like his mind’s been screaming to since she set her sights on him.

“Mom,” Jonathan says, out of breath like he ran here from his bedroom. He’s appeared over Ms. Byers’ shoulder like a ghost, or a ninja– silent and on the attack. “What’s going on?”

He’s a sleep-rumpled version of his mom, wearing a plain, soft t-shirt, and grey sweatpants scattered with light bleach stains. Steve notices he still has pillow creases on his left cheek. His gaze follows the red indent down to Jonathan’s jawline where a small, purpling bruise is haloed by faded red lipstick.

All of the air in Steve’s lungs is punched out of him, hard and fast. A feeling he should be used to from Jonathan Byers. 

Steve thinks he sees a flash of pastels in his periphery, dashing through the trees to the road. Or maybe it’s his imagination. It doesn’t matter, because he can’t look away from the uncomfortably familiar mark on Jonathan’s neck.

Jonathan must notice. His hand flies up to his neck, wiping the mark and finding a smear of red on his fingers. The spell holding Steve breaks, and he can breathe again. 

Their eyes meet, and Jonathan’s cheeks now match the stain on his fingers. It’s awkward and Steve doesn’t know how to fix it or how to make this easier. Because Steve never knows how to fix things, only how to break them. Something Joyce seems well aware of.

Distracted, Steve’s just now noticing the small shadow creeping up behind Jonathan. He sees the young boy poke his head out from behind his brother’s back as he takes a small step towards the commotion.

“Steve was just leaving, sweetie,” Joyce answers, voice soft and sweet as she turns away from him to go back inside.

“Wait, no that’s not what I meant,” Jonathan continues. He shakes his head and roughly pushes his unruly bangs from his eyes. “Steve, why are you here?”

Jonathan’s looking at him like he knows the answer. And he should really, considering the only reason Mike agreed to have Steve as his babysitter was because Jonathan promised he’d talk to Will about it, and then they’d talk to Joyce. 

A long train of telephone Steve was relying on to get a head start at Joyce’s good will. Which, apparently, never happened.

Steve plays along into Jonathan’s prompting. She’s already said no, so what’s one more try with a little back-up.

“I was asking if I could babysit Will, since I watch the rest of the gang too. Can’t leave any party members behind,” Steve says, parroting Dustin.

“And I was just telling him–” Joyce starts, before she’s interrupted.

“I think Steve would be a great babysitter,” Will says. His hair’s a mess, and he’s straightening out his matching Star Wars pajama set as he steps further into view.

Joyce rushes over to him, squatting down to meet his eyes. “Will, honey, you don’t need a new babysitter. You can still spend time with your friends at their houses, when their parents are home.” Jonathan takes the distraction to wave Steve into the house, silently closing the door behind them.

“But the other parents don’t know about– you know,” Will hesitates, before mustering up the courage to say “about what actually happened to me.”

“Baby,” she says, gently running her hands up and down his small arms. “You know we can’t tell them. We went over this.”

“It’s not about them knowing the truth,” Will says. Steve watches as the boy tries to make himself bigger, taller, even with the slight shake in his voice. “They just look at me like I’m broken. They’re sad when I’m around and they just think I was kidnapped or lost or– whatever the story is. That I was sick or something.”

Steve can’t help but imagine Will Byers, always the shy, quiet kid in the Party, having to constantly withstand the severely misguided pitying glances from adults who aren’t read-in on vast government conspiracies and alternate dimensions. Steve’s almost nineteen and can barely manage alone.

Her brows are knitted tight and her lips downturned the more Will confesses. “Well, Jonathan can–”

“I don’t want Jonathan to watch me anymore.”

Joyce’s eyes widen, confusion painted across her face as her mouth drops open. Steve turns to glance at Jonathan to find that, unlike his mother, he’s not surprised at all. In fact, there’s a light shining in his eyes and a small uptick to the corner of his mouth.

The tension is thick but familial, leaving Steve unwelcome and gawking at a private conversation. Which he supposes he is: both unwelcome and gawking.

“Go on, Will, it’s ok,” Jonathan encourages. He shines with a proud smile, like he’s watching his little brother walk for the first time. 

Will’s hesitant, his eyes downcast as he shuffles side-to-side. Waiting for him to continue, Joyce stays quiet. Steve can’t help but feel envious of Will and Jonathan at having a mom patient enough to hear her son outright, even when she doesn’t agree with him. She saved him from an alternate dimension, but sometimes the little things are just as important.

“When Jonathan dropped me off at Steve’s for DnD last week, it was fine… at first.”

“You both told me that was at Mike’s,” Joyce interrupts, turning a motherly glare at Jonathan who sheepishly avoids eye contact. She rounds on Steve again, closing the distance between them in three long strides to get in his face. “This is exactly what I’m talking about, Steve. What if something had happened and I didn’t know where to find him because of you?”

“Mom,” Jonathan interrupts, irritated. “That’s not fair. We are the ones who said it was at Mike’s– Will and I. I knew you wouldn’t let him go if you knew it was at Harrington’s place, so I told Will to lie.”

“You’re damn right I wouldn’t have let him go,” Joyce argues, turning back to Jonathan. “He’s not safe there! I know Steve Harrington and I know his parents. What if they had been home?”

“They haven’t been home in weeks,” Steve mumbles. He doesn’t mean to say it out loud, catching himself off guard. Years of practicing the lie, and he slips in front of the last three people on earth he’d want to know about his home life. He’d never complain, not to them. 

She shoots him a confused glance, an emotion behind her eyes Steve refuses to consider. But it seems she’s the only one whose noticed he said anything at all as Jonathan speaks up again. Shaking her head, she shifts her attention back to her son. In the midst of the chaos, Steve breathes a small sigh of relief.

“Mom, it was fine– everything was fine. Just–” Jonathan stops. He gestures to Will to keep going.

Will puffs his chest up, holding his mom’s gaze as he barrels on. “I liked having it at Steve’s. It smells nice, like candles, not like farts and laundry detergent like Mike’s basement. He had all the snacks we like, and he’s got a huge table that can fit all our stuff.”

The kid’s smiling now, and goddamn if it doesn’t melt his heart. Steve’ll be disappointed if Joyce says no, but at least he knows for a fact Will felt comfortable around Steve and liked being at his house.

“But after Jonathan picked me up, Lucas said they stayed up and watched movies all night. That Steve even made an ice cream sundae bar and there were a million toppings.” Will’s arguing is starting to sound like a petulant child, a slight whine to his tone, and Steve can tell Joyce is losing her patience.

“Will, that’s something you and Jonathan can do. We’d love to do sleepover nights with your friends.”

“No, Mom,” Jonathan states, strong in a way Steve’s never seen from him before. His only tell is the waver behind his voice. Steve’s willing to bet Jonathan would rather face down another demogorgon than take on his own mother. Yet here he is, sticking his neck on the line for Will.

“What do you mean, no?” It’s barely a question.

“I don’t want to babysit Will anymore.” He quickly closes his eyes and shakes his head, like an etch-a-sketch. “No, wait– I’m not babysitting Will anymore.”

The room falls deadly silent. Joyce’s lips flatten into a thin, white line, matching the color of her knuckles. She looks ready to explode, like how his father used to look before the first blow. 

Steve flinches when she takes a step towards Jonathan, and she clocks his reaction just like before, but ignores him to glare at her oldest son.

“I want to spend more time with Nancy.” Jonathan’s eyes are wide, like he forgot Steve was there, and he can see an embarrassed flush painting his ears. Steve just shrugs. It is what it is, he’ll get over it like he always does. Jonathan relaxes a bit. “I want to get a job so I can take her on dates that are more than just driving out to the quarry.” 

“Jonathan,” Joyce jumps in, “you can’t get a job. You’re grades are slipping as it is and you don’t have time–”

“Exactly! I don’t have time for a job right now. But if Steve starts watching Will after school and some weekends, I can get a job and keep my grades up and spend time with Nancy.”

She’s shaking her head, but Jonathan plows on before she can jump back into the fray.

“Billy Hargrove is a goddamn monster, Mom. He almost killed Steve! And we all know the kids would’ve found a way to get to the tunnels no matter what. Steve was beat to hell and still went with them.” Jonathan points at Steve’s face in emphasis, like a fucked up version of a pretty model showboating a new car. Except the model is the guy who stole his girlfriend, and the car is a has-been with a fucked up brain and no future.

“And last year,” Jonathan continues, “Nancy and I would be dead if he didn’t come back for us. After everything that happened between us, he had no reason to turn around. Hell, I’m not sure I would’ve.”

He doesn’t know Jonathan Byers well, but Steve knows for a fact Jonathan would’ve faced death to save him– to save anyone. It’s not even a question.

Joyce still doesn’t seem convinced. “Everything that happened last year is exactly what I’m worried about, Jonathan.”

“It’s my fault, not his!” Jonathan shouts. “It’s my fault he got sucked into this mess, it’s my fault Nancy left him, and it’s my fault he broke the camera!” Color drains from his face. Steve freezes, staring at him. 

Steve still hasn’t told anyone why he broke the camera– none of them have talked about it, and he never planned to bring it up. Ultimately he’s thankful that the pictures exist, since it provided the only clue to Barb’s death and the Upside-Down. 

But he doesn’t understand why Jonathan took the pictures. And it doesn’t change the fact Steve closes his blinds every night.

“What do you mean, your fault?” Joyce asks, out of sorts. 

He stammers a bit, looking to Steve for help. Steve doesn’t want to have this conversation at all, let alone in front of Jonathan’s entire family. He glares back at Jonathan, tersely shaking his head once.

Lie.

He gets the gist, relief stark on Jonathan’s face. 

“Steve caught Nancy and I sneaking around when we were looking for Barb and Will,” Jonathan quickly recovers. “We didn’t want him poking around, so we let him think we were flirting. But some pictures I had taken of Nancy fell out of my bag, and Steve saw them. That’s why he broke my camera.

“We ran into him and his friends later while they were spraying up The Hawk. I didn’t know it was all Tommy Hagen’s idea, so I got in Steve’s face and I hit him first. He called me queer, and that’s shitty. But he apologized, saved our lives, and bought me a new camera. So–”

Jonathan turns to him and holds out his hand. It reminds Steve of his father, but also of Hopper, which he decides is a more apt comparison.

He reaches out and Jonathan grasps his hand firmly, shaking it up and down just once, yet continues to hold on. Forging a new pact for the future.

“Steve, I’m sorry about everything.” He seems genuine– eyes wet, shoulders set, and back straight. Steve tries to match his posture. He might not be as good with words as Jonathan, but he can at least show this moment is just as important to him. “But you helped protect the kids so we could save Will. And you saved Nancy and me. So– I trust you.”

Steve can’t handle this. It’s too early in the morning for heavy emotions and deep confessions, but Jonathan’s searching for forgiveness in the face of a former bully. Steve steps up to the plate and meets him halfway.

“I shouldn’t have broken your camera, I know how expensive they are and how much it meant to you. I was angry and I wasn’t thinking. And I, I umm–” 

Steve realizes he’s never really had to apologize to someone before. Sure he’s apologized to Nancy, but it seemed like a normal thing for guys to always apologize to their girlfriends. He’s apologized to Dustin, but that’s more like placating a rowdy toddler. 

This feels different, somehow bigger. Maybe it’s because Jonathan’s his own age, or someone his parents have programmed him to think is lesser than himself. Maybe it’s the deep regret that’s made itself a home in Steve’s stomach, rotting away at the memory of a vicious word spat haphazardly at a stranger.

“I’m sorry I called you queer. That’s fuc– I mean messed– up, and I’m sorry.” Steve sighs, running a nervous hand through his hair, less painful with the stitches removed. He almost misses the stinging sensation. “It’s something my dad says all the time and it was the first thing I thought of, and I hate that. I’m not my dad, I never want to be like him.”

Jonathan nods and pulls Steve forward into a hug, and when they separate Steve feels lighter. A heavy weight he hadn’t known about, removed from his shoulders with Jonathan’s help. If he didn’t know any better, he’d think Jonathan felt the same way by the smile on his face.

“Yeah!” Will shouts, unprompted and overly excited for the tone of this entire conversation. There’s a wide grin on his face when he holds up his hand to high-five Steve and cheers “welcome to the Bad Dads Club!”

Steve scoffs, shocked but completely delighted and confused at Will’s eager declaration. Joyce smacks her hand to her forehead and mutters something like jesus christ under her breath, while Jonathan barks out a laugh. 

He grabs his little brother by the shoulder and shakes him like a rag doll until Will breaks out into giggles. “Will,” Jonathan says, failing to keep a straight face, “remember when I explained the difference between family jokes and not-family jokes?”

Will’s smile fades slightly, red embarrassment splashing his cheeks as he quickly glances between Jonathan and Steve, realizing his social blunder. Jonathan squeezes his shoulder and gives him a sad, reassuring smile. But Steve won’t be the reason for the small frown tugging on Will’s lower lip.

Steve holds out his hand, palm up. He smiles at the kid, eyes alight with mischief. “Bad Dad’s Club,” Steve says, like it’s more than just a fucked up childhood and is instead forging a pact, binding them through one shitty commonality. 

Will returns his smile and high fives him, who then turns to his brother. Jonathan laughs again when he pulls Will in for a hug instead, shrugging at Steve.

Joyce’s gaze travels between the three boys standing in front of her, and Steve can see the moment she cracks.

Her stance has softened. Her lips are still pursed, her eyebrows only slightly furrowed, but her arms hang relaxed at her sides and she’s looking at Steve less like she wants to throw him out and more like she doesn’t know what to do with him.

“You get one week,” Joyce says sternly, pointing a finger in Steve’s face. He goes cross-eyed looking at it, but he can still see Will and Jonathan high-five. “One week of picking him up after school. I get done at Melvald’s at six, so you can bring him home at six-thirty.”

Before Steve can wholeheartedly agree, she rounds on Will and Jonathan next, who stand at attention, trying to stay serious through their own excitement. 

“You,” she points at Jonathan, “better keep your grades up if you’re getting a job.”

“And you,” she gestures to Will, “better have all of your homework done when you get home. If you can’t get it done at Steve’s house, then you don’t get to go.”

She backs away from them, taking a deep breath in and exhaling loudly. “Is all of that clear?”

Waves of yes’s pour from their mouths. Will wraps his arms around his mom’s waist and Jonathan lightly punches Steve’s shoulder. 

“Thank you, Ms. Byers,” Steve says as he turns to leave, “I’ll make sure you don’t regret this. Any of you.”

She sighs, a small sad smile on her face. “I really hope that’s true, Steve.”

On the drive home, he realizes she never mentioned the slip-up about his parents’ absence. He’s grateful for it. Talking with adults has never been his strong suit, and his conversations with each of the kids’ parents are starting to weigh on him. 

The Byers’ might not have as much money or means as the Harrington’s, but that doesn’t stop Joyce Byers from being a damn great mom. So he’s not surprised she took note of his own small mishaps. Maybe she’ll bring it up one day, maybe she won’t. All Steve cares about is that he finally has the opportunity to earn the trust of the fiercest parent he knows.

~~~

[givehimthemedicine]

Madwheeler and Super-El: Max and Mike's perspectives on El as the (super)hero

working on another post pondering El's role as "the hero" vs the way the show really doesn't support that concept, and places huge importance on teamwork instead.

the hero is usually the strong/capable one expected to take all the risks and save the day, and other characters feel free to throw them at danger without fearing too much for their safety, especially if they also have powers. but when the hero is a little girl, that's harder.

so today I'm chewing on how El is viewed in that light by the two people closest to her - both of whom are prone to contextualizing her powers through a fantasy lens.

so, here comes one of my favorite El-Max topics, but also one where I've shortchanged Mike in the past. I need to revise some of the old stuff I've said about Bad Guy Mike identifying El as a superhero vs Good Guy Max identifying El as just a girl with superpowers. that was a pretty superficial read on both ends.

(I'm sure the Mike parts will be kindergarten review for his fans/analysts, but I don't usually pay him much attention; this is aimed more at the Mike-hater/ignorer elmax crowd I spawned from)

this is a long ramble, but a fun one I think!

let's start with Max.

for her, El begins as a mythological figure. she doesn't believe she exists as described by Lucas. but then El proves her existence via a very badass entrance, and it only supports Max's idea of her as some kind of invincible, superhero-esque figure.

Max scoffs at the idea of El needing Hopper's protection at the lab. actually, El does need it, bigtime! closing the gate takes all her focus, and without Hopper there to fend off demodog attacks, she probably couldn't have done it.

Max doesn't see that, though, and presumably spends little or no time around El between seasons, so her first impression goes unchallenged for almost a year.

we find s3 Max locked in HARD in her faith in El as the hero who can solo the baddie, take care of herself, and save everyone else. she seems to picture that having superpowers means El has nothing to fear.

the sauna is the first time Max actually sees El fight, and it doesn't go how she expects

El fights Billy, but gets overpowered at one point. everybody's stunned: this is the first time any of the party has ever seen El not decisively win a fight, so "uhhh... should we do something?" doesn't kick in instantly. Max and the others watch as El gets choked purple. only Mike intervenes to save her life and give her a moment to regain control of the fight.

"like she needs protection" and "you have super powers! what's the worst that could happen?" age like milk here. this is when Max sees that El is not invincible and needs help. lesson learned!

... ehh well.. actually what happens is, Max doubles down on her solo-hero-El stance after this and has a bigtime attitude about it.

and, okay, I'm ready to admit that Max's overconfidence towards El's abilities leads to her treating El more like she's a superhero than Mike does during this era. not her intent, but, what's said is said. (I'll get into it, bear with me)

when Mike worries about El endangering herself, Max accuses him of not respecting El's right to make her own choices. when Lucas suggests killing the MF with fireworks, she eyerolls him for thinking any non-El approach could be of value.

nobody was 100% right or wrong, but I see Max having the most crow to eat after all this. Mike was right to worry about El's limits and fear for brain damage: she loses her powers entirely (in the sense that this is later likened to the brain-scrambling of a stroke, can it not be said that El did take brain damage from the MF? not exactly how Mike meant it, but?). and Lucas is no dummy for the fireworks idea: it's all that stops El from getting flayed at one point.

El still helps save the day in s3, but as the big powerful solo hero? nah. least of any season. Max's repeated bets on her powers lose.

so why did watching El almost die in the sauna seem to have no effect on Max's perception of her? why does she still assert that El alone will kick all the flayed butts in 3x6, after she needed some nerd's help kicking (1) flayed butt in 3x4?

there is a visible effect! just not the one you expect right away.

mid-3 is Max's guilt and denial era

3 is when all the issues are coalescing that leave Max depressed in 4: she wished for something terrible to happen to Billy, and now it is, so it feels like it's her fault. she's not ready to cope with the guilt that comes from that, or any of the other dominos that are falling as a result.

"I just stood there and watched" is textually about Billy and the flesh monster. but if Max feels guilt for inaction, she would have similar feelings about El in the sauna, where she also took no action.

Max specified that her inaction with Billy wasn't because she was scared or weak, but because she didn't know if he deserved to be saved. It being a decision not to act is why she feels so terrible about it. I see no reason to think it was radically different in the sauna: I could completely buy that she somewhat chose not to act because she didn't think El needed to be saved.

I don't think either are cases of Max blaming herself for an uncontrollable freeze response, because we see multiple illustrations of her not having that response, whether it's herself or others in danger.

post-sauna, Max has plainly seen that El did need protection, and is struggling with the fact that she didn't provide any. the bathroom scene is when her guilt is the clearest, imo.

watch how she gets lost in the sight of El's bruises and stops what she's doing, and the way she asks if it hurts. you can imagine her logic in feeling like those bruises are her fault: both for "causing" the greater situation and for not making a move to help.

but what's really telling is the abrupt change of subject and tone from "are you in pain?" to "lol that Mike's a yapper amirite?". she has a lot of nerve putting Mike down after he's the one who just saved El's ass, right? but that's exactly why she does it. this is 14 year old coping with heavy feelings in an immature manner, as they'll do.

choosing Mike isn't just a random "lol madwheeler worsties" attempt to cheer El up. it's an attempt to bury her shame at her own inaction compared to his action in the sauna. by getting a laugh out of El at Mike's expense and shifting the theme of the scene towards making fun of the boys, she's steering into waters that reflect more favorably on herself, and her bond with El, than him/his.

so I think that's one big reason Max is doubling down on her confidence in El in mid-3: to absolve her guilt. she's trying to convince herself that El really CAN take care of herself despite what she saw. because if El is superheroically powerful, Max has nothing to feel guilty about (and in fact, is El's only good, supportive friend for having faith in her!)

season 3's war of the sexes

here's another reason I think Max doubles down. she has some male-specific trust issues at play behind the scenes in this season that have been messing up her relationship. as a result of El coming to her for advice, Max's private personal trauma-foibles get projected out into this "stupid boys" war of the sexes that clogs up most of the party's season.

why do I bring up trust issues? because Max does. her framing in the cabin argument is pretty bullshit: she spins Mike's concern for El's wellbeing into an issue of trust. which is a kinda odd word for the situation, especially considering it does not play to her advantage.

look at her regret that she let that word escape containment lmao:

Max thinks boyfriends can't be trusted, so it follows that girlfriends should always be trusted - and "trust" here means "trust El to save the day without killing herself". even though I trust it's been explained to her that that's classic El behavior.

she presents her case to Nancy and Jonathan, but a fair trial for Mike goes out the window when only Nancy weighs in. yep, the Nancy who's fresh off her own war with Jonathan about workplace misogyny and how he should've trusted her about the rat story. so Nancy's ruling (while none of it is wrong) has a heavy bias in the same direction as Max's, and totally glosses over the valid aspects of what Mike's saying. lmao at the way Jon mutes himself for this discussion. she's never wrong, son.

El's agency and ability prevail as the only real issues among the loudest voices in the room - neither of whom share the trauma of already having witnessed El exercise both to sacrifice herself.

oh, but then look what happens as soon as El starts losing another fight:

at least some of that was denial, because it ends abruptly right here. Max doesn't need it anymore, because she has something way better: another chance.

I think if the sauna truly hadn't changed Max's mind about El, then Max would've done the same thing here (stood and watched). but she doesn't. this time when El gets overpowered fighting the flesh monster and almost gets yoinked, Max jumps in to help pull her back.

(this is how we can be sure Max's inaction with Billy and the FM wasn't merely a freeze response. "I imagine myself running to you, pulling you away" - they showed her able and willing to do exactly that for El)

this is a huge step. but still, the anti-Lucas-fireworks stuff happens even after this. (she's a work in progress, okay?)

in fairness, El's powers are the more effective approach. she still has them here, and nobody foresees her losing them over a leg injury. if all had gone as expected, El would've probably done the heavy lifting in another FM fight at the mall. Max doesn't have to be so dismissive of conventional backup plans, but she's not wrong-wrong about this particular one, either: fireworks don't kill the FM. they're an invaluable distraction, yes, but not fatal.

by this point, Max understands now that El needs help/protection even though she has powers, but still places her faith in those powers above all else to handle the supernatural fighting. which I'd call a fairly reasonable, if sucks-to-be-El assessment.

more progress is made when El loses her powers:

this little piece of action is sooooo tasty as a bookend to the sauna scene.

this time, Max doesn't wait to see how the fight goes and then jump in for backup if needed. she takes the defensive lead this time, stepping out in front. none of these three have the physical strength to beat Billy, so she figures that as Billy's stepsister, the responsibility falls to her to try to stop him a different way. doesn't work even a little bit, but, credit for the effort to defend. (Mike too, full credit for trying)

s4 Max on El's power loss

we don't know of anything Max ever said TO El regarding her power loss. but during her curse era in season 4 she's still out there wishing for El to get her powers back.

this line was a rock in my shoe for awhile because I thought Max should've grown past the solo-hero-El mindset after s3. I wish the burden wasn't always on El, and I'd like to see Max express that too, and spend more time helping think of conventional solutions instead of just relying on El's powers to save the day.

but actually I just misinterpreted the line.

she doesn't say this during the discussion about how they're gonna stop Vecna. this is specifically in reply to Nancy pointing out that they need to find a way into the UD in order to do that. so Max isn't saying she wishes El would come kill Vecna / rescue her / save the day, she's just saying she wishes El could poke a hole into the UD for them so they can do it. opening a portal is the part the kids really can't do on their own. shooting/stabbing a guy, sure.

once a gate presents itself, Max never wishes for El's help again. she volunteers as bait while the others kill Vecna, which is an entirely conventional solution.

so, this still fits a general trend away from regarding El as a solo/super hero. as always, Max looks to El for the stuff that can only be accomplished with superpowers; what's really changing is that her perception of "things that can be accomplished without superpowers" is expanding. s3 to s4 shows an enormous decrease in her reliance on El for supernatural battle.

ooh but the final step (so far) is my favorite

Max really no longer expects El to solo, even when she shows up with powers and gives explicit instructions to let her solo. ("stay back" -> so, "just stand there and watch"? mm tasty)

Max does listen, initially, but when things go south, she tries to stab Vecna in El's defense (or more realistically, tries to distract him for a second).

the interesting piece of character growth here is not that Max tries to protect El even though El has powers. that's not new.

it's the implications of Max growing past volunteering her protection unasked, all the way to insisting on protecting El even after she said not to.

a very interesting choice from little miss trust-El-who's-saved-the-world-twice.

[Regina George voice:] so you agree? it is possible for El to overestimate her own limits? and her decisions should sometimes be challenged or overridden for her own protection?

like. Max and Mike are the only ones El has ever "stay back"ed. I mean, she's fought for everybody, but they're the only two people she's ever explicitly, individually, fought instead of. are we seeing it?

are we seeing how Mike's feelings in that s3 argument had a lot to do with watching El fight the demogorgon after keeping him back for his own protection - and that the instant Max has the vaguely-equivalent experience of watching El fight Vecna after keeping her back for her own protection, her actions get a bit more Mikey?

where will this go in s5?

unless we get an amnesia plot, s5 Max ought to have a specific brand of El-loss trauma very similar to Mike's, considering she most likely died thinking El had already been killed trying to protect her. (I'm 100% sure she never saw and 90% sure she never heard El in the mind lair with her so it probably looked like she was dead or at very least "gone")

seems very safe to say s5 will require El to endanger herself in order to save Max, and I'm very eager to see how this arc plays out in terms of Max's reaction to that (will we get a scene where Max actually tries to dissuade her?) and whether we'll get any kind of madwheeler handshake type moment about that.

I'm not saying Max and Mike will or should reach equilibrium in the end, but I am enjoying that they've both ended up sliding towards the middle ground since their argument. Mike has learned to better respect El's agency and independence, and now Max has learned that sometimes she too prioritizes El's safety.

so! Max starts out all starry-eyed over El, thinking superpowers are the solution to everything, only to become more and more inclined to help and protect the girl she originally thought of as a superhero. can't tell you how much I love this progression.

.

now let's talk about Mike

unlike Max, Mike never expected El to be invincible or save the day all on her own. it might have a lot to do with first impressions (which looks like she needs taking care of: the rainsoaked nonverbal child lost in the woods, or the MTV punk who just hurled a monster through the window?)

Mike does encourage El to use her powers to find Will (after she volunteers her ability and willingness), but just the void-searching, screwing-with-electronics type stuff. he never encourages her towards telekinetic battle; she does all that unasked. he never expects her to fight for them in any way that seems to seriously endanger her. in fact, he makes effort to protect her at those times.

season 2, he worries for El when she goes off to the lab to close the gate, in contrast to Max figuring she can take care of herself. Mike formulates the plan to draw away the demodogs to make it safer for her.

season 3 is the big argument where Mike's seemingly the only one concerned for El's safety, accusing everyone of being careless with El's powers and treating her like a machine. (intriguing that the actual word "superhero" wasn't invoked in this scene)

although Max makes valid points in this argument, bias from her trust issues causes her to take her points a bit too far. the same thing is going on with Mike. he makes valid points, but has bigtime loss issues that cause him to err in the other direction (arguing El is risking her life "for no reason" when literally the world is at stake).

in fact, throughout the series, his concern for El's safety looks chiefly motivated by his own fear of loss.

"I don't want her to die looking for the flayed"

oh boy does that line tell us a lot. he says "looking for". not "fighting". y'all see the size of the can of worms?

Mike worries about her dying not in combat to save the day, but from searching the void for too long and dying from strain of power overuse. which raises the question:

if Mike is worried about power strain... shouldn't it have been a concern when she had to close the gate last year, which was 1000x more strenuous?

El's battery-drainage has been common knowledge since s1, so either:

s2 Mike didn't realize closing the gate would take lots of power (doesn't make sense; Hopper told them the gate had gotten huge), OR

is there some reason Mike would've become even more El-loss-motivated by 3 than he was in 2, even though he got to "keep" El at the end of 2?

yes! the reason is Will.

in s2, Will was in jeopardy. Mike's response to the El-gate-closing plan wasn't "oh no, El, don't! you might die or get brain damage!" it's "okaycool but let's make sure Will is safe first." when he does fret for El's safety, he specifies that it's the demodogs he's worried about. he makes no mention of power strain.

in s3 the world is at stake again, but suddenly now Mike is all "oh nooo we can't let El strain herself" regarding a comparatively extremely-low-power-intensity task (plus El is older and presumably stronger since s2). the key variable is that this time, Will is fine.

Mike has always cared about El's safety, but back when Will was at stake, he was able to overlook power strain on her as regrettable but necessary. right now, with Will's safety a non-issue, Mike is free to make El's safety his top concern, even to the point of judging all the others for acting basically like he did in s2. priorities.

anyway, back to the greater subject:

none of his behavior in the first few seasons looks much like the way someone would treat a superhero.

if Mike has always understood that El needs help and protection, why does he get all superhero-y about her by season 4?

has he grown increasingly awed by her powers as they've strengthened? is Mike's arc the inverse of Max's, with him regarding El as more of a superhero over time? I don't think that's it.

I think framing this the same way for Mike as for Max is wrong, and misses what's really neat about this contrast.

we have to think about why each of them liken El to a superhero in the first place. it's not for the same reasons.

Mike and Max admire different qualities in their favorite superheroes.

Max superhero name drop: Wonder Woman Max is a girl from a broken home who's felt abandoned, rejected, or abused by every male figure in her life, so we can see the obvious appeal in a strong, independent super-woman. (isn't WW's Lasso of Truth also just what a girl with trust issues would want?)

things like relative invincibility (I know WW isn't literally invincible but like, compared to a regular person), female independence, and ability to defend herself (esp from men) are defining superhero qualities to Max because they're a mix of what she has to be, and what she wishes she could be. she probably imagines that if she were WW, she wouldn't have to worry about anyone or anything that's making her life suck the way it does. WW is MM upside down. coincidence????? (yes)

that's what Max thought El was, early on, hence genuinely thinking El could take care of herself in the sauna.

so does Max just stop thinking of El as a superhero? not necessarily in every sense. right around the time Max is letting go of those preconceptions, another El-WW commonality becomes evident: El helps save the world not with superpowers, but with compassion for Billy.

a mainstay of the Wonder Woman character is the dichotomy of her dominant force aspect and her nurturing humanity: her overwhelming belief in love, empathy, compassion, and having a strong conscience.

I'm not sure whether to think El told anybody how she got through to Billy at the end. but if Max does know, then there are still Wonder Womanly things for her to admire about El's actual character, even if she doesn't think of her as a superhero anymore in the defining sense.

Mike superhero name drop: Superman invincibility is more of a Superman thing, but not one I see evidence that Mike esteems in Supes, wishes for himself, or expects from El.

the qualities I figure Mike admires in Superman are evidenced by the ones that reflect in his own character: things like loyalty, protectiveness, strong sense of justice. nobody thinks his powers aren't cool, but I sense the real allure for Mike is the way Superman uses those powers for good. that's how Mike would use powers if he had any.

I think such qualities are also what he likes about El. I'm giving him a huge benefit of doubt here, because he hasn't made this clear textually. but in the monologue, I see now how he's calling her a superhero for her character, not her actual powers. he admires her for her loyalty to her friends, her commitment to fighting for good, her constant choice of love over hate - all that jazz. stuff that really does apply with or without her powers.

Mike superhero name drop: X-Men when Lucas says El is a "weirdo, not a superhero" Mike doesn't deny her weirdo-ness, he defends it, in other words saying someone can be both.

the X-Men are outcasts due to genetic mutations, so their appeal is obvious among a group of nerds who are bullied and called freaks over a variety of prejudices. through an X-Men lens, Mike can find strength in the discrimination and struggle to fit in which the party faces in real life.

this all applies to El too, who faces definite struggles from not fitting in, getting bullied and called a freak as well.

two indicators that Mike meant it specifically in an X-Men way when he called El a superhero during their fight:

one: this conversation started with her talking about how she is different, doesn't belong, and everyone thinks she's a monster.

two, Mike's word choice. he's already referenced his bullying, but his use of "mouth breather," a s1 throwback word referring to Troy ("I was tripped by this mouth breather Troy") links his thought process back to the X-Men conversation specifically (which took place on the heels of Troy bullying the party).

Mike didn't call her a superhero like "they don't have telekinesis and you do, so you rule and they drool!" he meant "yes you are different from everybody else, and I know that sucks a lot of the time, but the way you use your unique qualities to fight evil is what makes you awesome, like the X-Men!"

Mike superhero name drop: Mister Fantastic

the first person whose superpowers Mike praises isn't El. it's Dustin! he thinks the hyper-flexibility Dustin gets bullied for is cool, kind of like the stretching powers of Mister Fantastic.

I don't know Mister Fantastic so I had to look up what his deal is, and was intrigued to find this:

.. although his cosmic ray powers are primarily stretching abilities, his presence on the Fantastic Four team is defined by his scientific acumen, as he is officially acknowledged as the smartest man in the Marvel Universe.

rather reminiscent of Dustin, the genius child who's always explaining magnets and the plot to everyone else? looks like his "superpower" is not the only reason Mike likens Dustin to Mister Fantastic. just like El's isn't the only reason he likens her to Superman.

anyway, Mike thinking of El as a superhero isn't the problem per se. the problem is him never articulating that he doesn't mean it in the hurtful way

Mike's had two big scenes where he REALLY needed to make this clear to El, and didn't (if I'm even on the right track here).

El doesn't know jack about superheroes except that they have powers, so when Mike calls her that, she has no idea he could be referring to anything other than her powers. you can't tell me she ever read a comic for him or listened to him talk about Superman. I can't remember El ever even politely feigning interest in Mike's interests.

the only time she's ever listened to anyone lore dump about superheroes was Max about Wonder Woman, and if my above reading is accurate, early s3 Max probably focused on superpowers more than character.

the closest we ever came to E listening to Mike talk about a "superhero" he likes is:

it's not like he extolled Yoda's bravery or anything. just telekinesis. so it's little wonder what her takeaway is here. all she has to go by is what he says out loud.

and when Mike reassures her, unprompted, that she'll get her powers back at the end of s3, it just reinforces her notion that telekinesis is really important to him.

when actually, I think Mike just says that because it's important to her. she's lost a part of herself and he wants her to feel whole. (whether El truly wants her powers back for her own sake or because she fears she's not valuable to others without them is another conversation - point here is, Mike saw her try, fail, and look upset about it, so he reassures her.)

ps, I do like how reaching that teddy bear for her serves as a micro illustration of the way he's willing to help reach goals in conventional ways instead of relying on her powers.

but yeah, again, clearly she thinks he means her powers when he calls her a superhero and she answers "not anymore".

which leads to a question I've yelled at the tv more than once: why didn't he just clarify as soon as El said "not anymore"? this whole thing could've been nipped in the bud?

I think he doesn't even realize the miscommunication.

his intent with the superhero "compliment" might just be so obvious to him that he doesn't realize it needs clarification for her.

"but how could he miss the miscommunication? what else than her lost powers could she mean by "not anymore"?" maybe Mike thinks she DOES already understand that he means the superhero thing in terms of admirable character. so, when she says "not anymore", maybe he thinks she's referring not to her lost powers, but to her lost standing in his eyes since hitting Angela?

I've pondered before about how maybe Mike's admiration of El's Supermanly "unwavering moral code" is why he was so upset that it apparently wavered after Rinkomania.

he didn't say anything to clarify after "not anymore" because he is still sorting out those feelings.

I'm not sure Mike realizes even after the "I have gone to become a superhero again" note (which he reads after finding out El is in training to get her powers back).

his reaction to the note isn't "oh no, I didn't mean superhero like that!" but rather seems all about his regret about El leaving him behind as a result of his failure to force an "I love you". (ah, the old fear of loss disguised as romantic love again)

I don't believe he'd fail to apologize/clarify if he realized the way that this hurt El. he can be an ass, he can be stupid, but he does reliably own up to his mistakes and apologize.

I used to think the "with/without your powers" line in the monologue meant he was aware of the miscommunication, and was trying to clarify. but he did such a bad job clarifying that it makes a lot more sense if he actually still hasn't clocked the issue at all. I gotta think he couldn't have been dumb enough to say the superhero thing again unless he still didn't get how it was hurtful in the first place.

he does have El on a pedestal. it's just not because of her powers.

the monologue is largely selfish, and doesn't land well for El, but it's not the worship-of-superpowers Mike is so often accused of. he's locked onto the "I love you" thing, caught up in his own fear of loss, and completely missing the optics for her.

the superhero thing can be cleared up with a single conversation. the true underlying issue, which would still persist, is this "extraordinary vs. ordinary" dynamic in his mind which isn't serving either of them well. he's got low self esteem from viewing himself as some useless loser compared to her; and the last thing she wants is another guy considering her extraordinary, which has been a horrific liability all her life, and she just wants normalcy.

reason #7519 why 🦴.

in conclusion: Mike and Max having different Super-El arcs is the good arc for both of them

as Max sees El needing protection, she comes to realize that powers don't grant the kind of freedom/safety that she daydreamed would go along with being a superhero in real life. so for Max to decreasingly regard El as a superhero is a positive thing.

as Mike sees El continue to loyally fight against ever-greater forces of evil and the social struggles that come with her uniqueness, he continues to admire the same qualities in her that define his favorite superheroes. so for Mike to still/increasingly regard El as a superhero is a... well-intentioned, potentially positive thing. (it can be, if he takes her off the pedestal and explains this in a way she can understand.)

[sunnyxjarrus]

Love how by the middle of season three everyone knows that something is going on with the upside down and stuff

Steve Robin Dustin and Erica are literally in the Russian lab that is reopening it

Nancy Jonathan Will Mike Lucas Max and El are fighting the flayed that haven’t turned into goo

Joyce and Hopper are aware that the Russians have a lab under the mall that is opening the gate

and none of the individual groups know that the other groups know anything

and it’s not even the same problems

[cloudycleric]

watching a documentary on the son(s) of sam, & it’s got me thinking about stranger things 5.

the first thing that makes me think about stranger things is the fact that hopper’s spin off novel, back when the novels were more adult or whatever, was heavily inspired by the son of sam case in new york. i can’t remember if the son of sam case was specifically mentioned or not, or if the book was about a parallel crime to son of sam but in a different universe, but there is definitely a link connecting them.

next, i’m going to talk about the cult (which was also in the spin off novel, but the stories in the novel & the real life crimes by the ‘sons of sam’ are almost identical)

i was remembering specifically that the church has been a important place in the filming of season 5 so far, & like everyone else, i’m wondering why. my theory: the citizens of hawkins, who now 1000% believe that the city is being attacked by the devil or demonic forces, have started a cult to worship whoever they believe the devil is.

the cult forming could be out of fear or pure insanity. or maybe both. it also very much goes with the satanic panic theme. (which, to be honest, though i think it’s an overused theme, it makes sense for the town of hawkins to be reacting this way).

the real life cult, called ‘the children’, claimed to be working for a higher entity, talking about how 6,000 year old dogs (demidog parallel) had been giving some of the members orders to kill.

these are the flayed from season 3, who were given specific instructions to kill & expand their army. in a way, they could be viewed as children of vecna &/or the mindflayer. also, in this scene in particular, the flayed are meeting underground in that building we first see billy get possessed.

do you wanna guess where the children met? a place they called the gutters. for some odd reason i can find 0 pictures on google of this place, but you can see it in the documentaries sons of sam & i’m sure a few others. it was also abandoned, like the building billy was killed in, graffiti everywhere with references to classic 70s cult shit.

also—all the victims of the son of sam were mainly teenagers… hmm maybe like s4?

so my official thinking is that maybe, just maybe, a cult worshipping vecna or whatnot will be a big part of s5, or that the son of sam case inspired more than just the hopper spin-off book.