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Understanding the Types of Expert Witnesses in Legal Proceedings
Expert witnesses play a critical role in modern litigation. Their primary purpose is to assist the court in understanding complex evidence or issues that are outside the scope of common knowledge. From civil suits to criminal trials, these professionals can make or break a case with their specialized knowledge. Below, we explore the main types of expert witnesses and how they contribute to the judicial process. Along the way, we’ll discuss specific examples, such as the financial expert witness, defamation expert witness, and damages expert witness, as well as considerations like the expert witness hourly rate.
What Is an Expert Witness?
An expert witness is an individual who possesses specialized education, training, skills, or experience in a particular field. Unlike fact witnesses who can only testify about what they directly observed, expert witnesses are allowed to offer opinions based on facts and their expertise. Courts rely on these opinions to make informed decisions, particularly in cases involving technical, scientific, or financial matters.
Expert witnesses can be called by either side in a case—plaintiff or defense—and their credibility often has a major impact on the outcome of the trial.
Categories of Expert Witnesses
There are numerous types of expert witnesses, each suited to a specific area of law or subject matter. Here are the primary categories:
1. Medical Expert Witnesses
Medical expert witnesses are commonly used in personal injury, malpractice, or wrongful death lawsuits. These experts might be surgeons, physicians, psychologists, or nurses who can testify about the standard of care in a medical context or evaluate the extent of a person's injuries.
2. Financial Expert Witnesses
A financial expert witness is crucial in cases involving economic loss, fraud, valuation, or complex financial transactions. These experts are often certified public accountants (CPAs), forensic accountants, or economists. In business litigation or divorce cases, they may evaluate the financial condition of a company or individual and offer insight into accounting practices, financial statements, or asset valuation.
They are also heavily relied upon in cases involving corporate fraud, investment disputes, or misappropriation of funds. Their analysis can determine whether transactions were lawful or fraudulent, making their role indispensable.
3. Engineering and Technical Experts
These experts are commonly used in construction disputes, patent litigation, and product liability cases. For example, in a car accident case, a mechanical engineer might testify about vehicle malfunctions or road conditions. In a product liability suit, an industrial engineer might explain how a product's design led to injury.
4. Forensic Experts
Forensic expert witnesses include professionals like DNA analysts, fingerprint experts, or ballistic experts. They are frequently seen in criminal trials, helping to link evidence to suspects or validate forensic methods used in the investigation.
5. Defamation Expert Witnesses
In cases involving slander or libel, a defamation expert witness can help establish whether statements made were damaging to someone’s reputation and whether they meet the legal standard for defamation. These experts may have backgrounds in media law, journalism, communications, or public relations.
They evaluate the content, context, and potential impact of the allegedly defamatory statements and can also offer insight into industry standards or public perception. Their testimony is especially important in high-profile cases involving public figures, celebrities, or corporations.
6. Damages Expert Witnesses
A damages expert witness calculates and explains the economic impact of harm or loss experienced by a party in a lawsuit. This may include lost earnings, future income potential, cost of medical treatment, or business interruption. They are often used in conjunction with other experts to present a comprehensive financial picture to the court.
These experts are particularly important in personal injury and commercial litigation, where accurately calculating damages can significantly affect the amount awarded by the court or agreed upon in a settlement.
7. Vocational Experts
Vocational experts are commonly used in disability and workers' compensation cases. They assess a person’s ability to work, given their age, education, skills, and physical or mental limitations. Their evaluations help determine eligibility for benefits or compensation.
8. Psychological and Psychiatric Experts
These experts testify about mental health issues in a wide range of cases, from child custody disputes to criminal responsibility defenses. They assess competency, psychological trauma, or the mental state of individuals involved in legal matters.
The Role of Expert Witnesses in Legal Strategy
Beyond their knowledge, expert witnesses serve a strategic role in litigation. They can:
Help attorneys understand technical issues during the discovery phase.
Assist in developing questions for opposing experts.
Testify during depositions and at trial to strengthen a client’s case.
Review and critique opposing experts' reports and opinions.
Choosing the right expert witness can greatly enhance credibility with the judge or jury. Attorneys often look for individuals who not only have impeccable credentials but also can communicate effectively and withstand cross-examination.
Understanding the Expert Witness Hourly Rate
Engaging an expert witness can be costly, with fees varying depending on their field, experience, and the complexity of the case. The expert witness hourly rate typically ranges from $200 to over $1,000 per hour. Some may charge flat fees for specific services like report writing or deposition testimony. Highly specialized experts, such as brain surgeons or forensic economists, often command premium rates.
Attorneys must consider these costs when developing their case strategy and assessing potential returns on a lawsuit.
Conclusion
Expert witnesses are a cornerstone of today’s legal system. Whether providing insight into financial statements, evaluating reputational harm, or calculating damages, their testimony can be the difference between winning and losing a case. Understanding the diverse types of expert witnesses and how they operate—along with factors like the expert witness hourly rate—helps legal professionals and litigants make informed decisions in high-stakes situations.
As litigation grows more complex, the demand for expert witnesses across various industries continues to rise, making their role ever more pivotal in delivering justice.
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"Six arrestations en marge de l'affaire mystérieuse de St-Hubert," La Patrie. July 25, 1943. Page 45. --- (Par THEO LEVESQUE) De source autorisée, nous apprenons en dernière heure que six personnes ont été arrêtées et gardées comme témoins indispensables dans l'affaire de St-Hubert. Il est impossible cependant de connaitre leur identité. ---- L'affaire de St-Hubert s'éclaircit. Le chef-adjoint Jargaille est sur le point de révéler l'identité du cadavre dont les ossements ont été retrouvés dans la cave de la ferme de M. Eugène Abandonato, à un mille au sud du village de Saint-Hubert
De toutes les recherches et de foutes les analyses faites par les docteurs Rosario Fontaine et Jean-Marie Roussel, il ressort que le cadavre a été identifie: les ossements sont ceux d'un Italien de 35 ans qui serait disparu en 1935. Les médecins-legistes sont unanimes sur un point la mort remonte à 28 ans.
Il est encore un autre fait certain: c'est qu'il ne saurait être question du cadavre de l'un des complices des bandits dans l'affaire de la Banque d'Hochelaga.
#montreal#skeleton mystery#mysterious death#human remains#farmhouse#st. hubert#police investigation#forensic expert#canada during world war 2#crime and punishment in canada#history of crime and punishment in canada
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So I can give a little insight into the how. Albeit, this is supposition from my perspective as a forensic scientist that is familiar with operations against organized crime groups (OCGs for the sake of this post) here in the USA and abroad.
Keep in mind that terrorist groups and OCGs exist within the same spheres, there are typically some differences in how they operate and what their overall goal is. However, there is an entire realm of vendors for equipment and services that both groups use in some capacity or another. Some vendors are more specialized one way or another and so will see more frequent use by certain groups or people. Ironically it’s one of the things that a lot procedural dramas, crime dramas, and others get right; the veritable black market that provides illegitimate services and goods. Although it’s typically less dramatic than television makes it.
In both cases, terrorist groups and OCGs, identifying a supplier to the vendor or a supplier to the group itself it’s important to any operation. This is how you get audio bugs in, moles, trackers, weapons, etc… into certain spots or to gather intel. We’ve done this for years with the crime families in NYC, Philly, and Boston to great success. Once you have established the method of how you’re in and you are actually in, then you proceed with whatever the next steps are.
But it’s honestly as simple as infiltrating the supply line. That supply line typically only goes to members associated with the criminal/terrorist organization and is usually made of trusted vendors and supplies. Actually infiltrating it is a big embarrassment to Hez and shows them that they’re operation is compromised.
Now, do some people sell material from their stock on the side to civilians? Probably. But even then it’s a a small number as any selling of supplies to civilians could affect the organizations operations. Plus, any civilian with your equipment becomes a possible liability.
Tbf, I’m not as familiar with Israeli forensics and operations but I imagine it follows the same pattern that has been used for years to address these types of groups. They could have done something completely different from all I know, but this is the best hypothesis I have as a professional who is tangential to this realm.
I’m sorry but, how could they POSSIBLY know that only terrorists would pick up those pagers? Like, even giving the benighted if the doubt I don’t see how this loony toons ass plot would realistically avoid civilian casualties.
Well, I guess technically speaking because I don't know how the bombs got there, I don't know. I guess if they managed to get the terrorists the pagers, It was probably some special order or something, but I don't know.
If they are only on terrorists, then yeah. you can see the videos. The pagers explode, and people 3 meters away are unarmed. Truly amazing, I have no idea how they pulled that off
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no pls noooo
#heha congratulations#the agent is nurse#engineer is scientist#anddddd soldat isss those forensic expert and pathologist#madness combat#alternative universe#aahw#aahw agent#atp soldat#atp engineer
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my favourite forensic doctor is back
#desiblr#desi tag#desi tumblr#cid#yes they brought back dr salunkhe#I wanted to be a forensic expert just because of him#I wanted to be like him; to be best at my job and have bickering sessions with a cop that I have years of history and piles of tension with
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piecing it together.
#Project Alleyway#Telos:#turns out#it is remarkably easy to bribe a desperate killer for hire (and coincidentally a forensics expert) to solve murders with you#pokemon#solrock#aegislash#pokemon oc#anthro pokemon#pokemon art#oc art#oc
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If Tim Drake were here he would have exposed all of elons crime before he became this big of a problem child send
#tim drake#oh how I’d love a vigilante to save us#one with a penchant for forensic accounting#if he can sneak a Batmobile into the bataeang budget he can be a forensic accounting expert don’t question me
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i'm gonna work at this fucking call center forever arent i
#hotel california ass workplace#many such cases#i fucked up not double majoring in anthropology and clinical laboratory sciences#bc nobody takes anthropology as a science seriously in forensics#unless they need Old Bone experts but that's so much schooling and it's not sustainable#i fucked up bad#im already 5 years in i can't add a whole ass other major now
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#crypto recovery service in the USA#best crypto recovery service in Canada#recover stolen bitcoin in the UK#trusted cryptocurrency scam recovery in Australia#how to recover scammed crypto in Europe#bitcoin recovery expert in South Africa#crypto scam recovery service in Dubai#blockchain forensic experts in Nigeria#cryptocurrency fraud recovery in India#recover lost crypto funds in Singapore
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How Can I Recover Lost or Stolen Crypto Assets?
#Crypto recovery#recover lost or stolen crypto#crypto scam recovery#blockchain forensics expert#bitcoin recovery expert
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An Ultimate Forensic Scientist would be such a cool character actually
#danganronpa#fanganronpa#writing this as i am watching expert witness and realising how many different types of forensic science there is#like#what do you mean forensic entomology exists
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that massacre blood won't let me rest
(bloodstain pattern analysis)
warning, this will contain some graphic explanations of how blood stains get made and a couple pictures of real blood (no people) as I attempt to apply my modicum of education on this subject to the HNL massacre

I'm mostly focusing on that main blood stain that goes across One's chest, but toward the end I'll touch on other stains in the RR.
tldr: I think that chest stain leaves plenty of room for doubt about whether One was the attacker.
so. bloodstain analysis crash course.
your main types of blood stains:
active - blood flying and landing on a surface as a result of force/motion. this includes spatters, splashes, arterial sprays.
passive - blood falling from plain old gravity. stains like drops and pools.
transfer - a surface coming into contact with another surface with blood on it. smears, maybe a hand or shoe print.
two lovely volunteers to demonstrate:

One's neck bleeding on his collar is an example of a passive blood stain. if any of those larger vertical blood drops on his shirt are supposed to be nose blood, (his nose barely bled but his shirt looks like it dripped) that's also passive. victims' eye blood is passive.
One mopping the floor with El leaving her with blood smeared on her gown is transfer.
that main pattern of blood droplets across One's chest is an active type stain. all the blood on him, apart from his own, appears to have flown through the air and landed on him.
the costume dept clearly put effort into depicting those types differently, going as far as to actually drag someone around the floor to find out what El's gown blood should look like as a result of the actions that put it there. I think it's fair to expect a similar level of research went into designing One's stains.
but discussing those methods in the interview might have revealed too much.
some types of active blood stains
arterial spray is when a vein or artery is cut and blood squirts out, flies through the air and lands on nearby surfaces. it's not usually just a little blood. here are two real examples of arterial spray:

to me, it seems like a severed artery would produce a more blood than is on One.
impact spatter is created when an object forcefully hits exposed blood and little droplets fly. forward spatter is made in the direction of the force, backward spatter is thrown back toward the direction the force came from.

in many cases forward and back spatter look much the same, so the main distinguishing clue is location.
back spatter is, without us even thinking about it, the type of stain we assume is on One's chest, because we also assume that he is the attacker. that he did something violent to someone and their blood splashed back on him. that is one valid explanation, but not the only.
see, spatter flies in all directions from an impact, 360. it looks like this (simulation). not all spatter is automatically back spatter. if it's forward spatter, it suggests One was facing the impact from opposite where the force came from. it's hard to imagine a scenario where the attacker gets forward spatter on himself.
castoff is another type of spatter typical of repetitious stabbing or beating where a weapon that's covered in blood, when swung back for another blow, flings off an arc of small blood droplets.
examples:
the attacker virtually never gets castoff on themselves. rather they fling it on the walls/ceiling around them, depending on the arc of their swings.
telekinetic blows cannot possibly create castoff because there would be nothing for the blood to stick to.
so if the stains on One are castoff, A) there was a bloody physical weapon/object involved and B) he seems very unlikely the attacker.
to me, the main stain on One looks consistent with either impact or castoff spatter. let's consider some more characteristics:
blood velocity
droplet size can also tell the speed at which the blood was moving, which helps reconstruct what amount of force and therefore type of injury it came from. generally, the smaller the droplets the higher the velocity.

One's chest spatter looks medium velocity. no surprises here.
blood directionality
the shape of droplets helps determine the direction the blood came from.
a drop onto a 90 degree angle, like if you're just standing there and your blood drips on the ground, leaves a circular droplet. an elongated blood droplet shows that the blood was flying through the air at an angle.
blood tails are what you call the pointy end of an elongated blood drop, which points in the direction of the motion. the bottoms of these more acute examples are the tails, indicating the blood was moving toward the bottoms.

now look at One. he definitely has multiple spatters on him, but I'm focusing on the main spatter that goes diagonally across his chest.
note how blood tails go in a consistent direction (bottom screen left moving towards upper screen right). this creates a strong idea of the spatter having originated low around One's right hip and flown upwards across his body.


of course we can't get too into analyzing this as legit forensic evidence, because it isn't. but the fact that they kept consistent with the direction of the blood tails when recreating these stains by hand multiple times seems like that detail mattered to them.
(I don't wanna shoplift directly from em's jumpsuit blood post but that has the best collection of pics and you can see that all iterations are in agreement with the direction of motion suggested).
here's a quick video showing a guy creating a bloodstain that illustrates both castoff and blood tails:
youtube
how'd homeboy get blood on his back?
I wish I could get a clearer look, but those are absolutely active spatters and not transfer. do you wanna tell me how, if you are the attacker, you'd manage to get your victim's blood to spatter onto your own back? like, even if he can Vecna someone behind his back, why? was he showboating like shredding guitar behind his head?? was it like the champagne in that one kim kardashian photo??

whose blood is on him?
neither castoff nor impact spatter makes sense for the bodies we see.
as I've discussed in other posts, none of the ways we saw anyone get killed in the massacre, nor any of the dead bodies in the RR, should produce blood stains like the ones on One.
the only external bleeding that getting Vecna'd™ produces is passive drips from the eyes. nobody got stabbed or struck repeatedly. even the eyes getting sucked out (or whatever?) doesn't result in any spatter. you can watch One kill Two, and there's no new blood on his face or on the floor between them. you can watch him throw guards into walls without a speck of blood on the walls or on himself.
for the amount of blood around the scene, there should be at least one much, much bloodier wounded person around here somewhere.
what is telekinetic force shaped like?
I'm unclear on what kind of spatter to expect when the weapon is telekinesis because I have so many unknowns about the nature of the impact. it really seems up to the person what shape and force of power they want to use in each instance (think the brute force of flipping a van vs the fine motor skills of turning a tv knob).
what I want is to picture the telekinesis used in the massacre as an invisible physical object so I can draw conclusions about the impact spatter it might create, but I can't.
ST has given us a couple great visuals of what impression telekinetic force actually creates when impacting various substances, revealing its "shape," and it varies a lot. my ruling is that telekinetic force has no default shape, so this is kind of a dead end.
but regardless, here's the curious thing about spatter:
(and that IS spatter on One, whether it's impact or castoff): spatter is the result of force upon exposed blood.
and a bunch of blood is not exposed yet until after a victim has been struck/stabbed/whatever at least once. meaning the victim that One's bloodstain belongs to was likely struck in the same spot repeatedly. twice minimum.
"well, blood is already exposed from the eye thing, couldn't it just be that?" yes, but striking victims after the eye thing isn't the MO. watch Virginia, Two, Chrissy, Fred, and Patrick die - after the eyes, they simply drop in place. he doesn't throw or hit them in any way.
if that is castoff, what was the blood cast off OF?
if there was a physical weapon, it's either missing from the scene or not shown.
I'd love to finish this section by suggesting an object in the lab that would make a thematically fitting murder weapon, but nothing jumps out at me.
it would be unlike them not to have brought our attention to the murder weapon before it's revealed as such. like, we need to be able to go "ohhh, they killed everybody with the 8 ball!" or whatever later or else it's not as fun.
the blood being castoff from a weapon would tend to suggest that the attacker wasn't telekinetic (or wasn't currently able to use their telekinesis). I mean, would you bother doing the manual labor if you didn't have to?
I don't see any very bloody objects lying around the RR, but I do see extremely clear evidence that there were very bloody hands.

hands are absolutely a thing that can cast off blood.
and there's only one person I know of who was ever shown with bloody hands in conjunction with the massacre.

let's talk about hands, then
we've got a diagonal thing going on here:

this bottom-left-upper-right orientation that would tend to result from a right-handed person casting off blood from an upward swing of either a weapon or their bloody hand. a lefty's swing would most likely create a bottom right-upper left diagonal castoff.
so which lab folk are what-handed?
lefties:

righties:




(I found only 2 lefts from El: manipulating the helicopter and stopping Vecna from killing Max. I could do a whole post on that. stop me)
ok, but what if that's backsplash, not castoff? same logic.
One is left handed, and when he throws someone with telekinesis, say like if he slams them downward, he uses his left hand. the way the arm swings naturally seems more likely to create an impact on that same side of the body. but the spatter originates from his right hip.
(NOT saying otherwise is impossible, it's totally possible, just seems less likely. go ahead and pretend you have telekinesis for a sec and see what direction of arm sweeps feel most natural.)
this is why when I look at the stain on One, I'm not totally convinced it's back spatter.
so what are some possible scenarios that might be consistent with blood like that?
where One is the attacker:
One strikes Victim with either a physical weapon or telekinesis. either from the strike or from falling and hitting some surface, their blood back spatters onto his shirt.
where One is not the attacker:
Attacker is striking Victim with a physical object or telekinesis. One stands opposite Attacker. forward or sideways impact spatter flies onto One's shirt.
Attacker is beating Victim with a physical object. One stands opposite Attacker. blood is cast up onto his shirt on one of Attacker's upswings.
One stands near Attacker or Victim who swings a bloody hand upward and casts blood across his shirt. (I'm liking this best)
now that I've been serious for a whole post, let me go insane about the scene overall (I'M JUST BRAINSTORMING DON'T SNIPE ME):
what if, by timeline shenanigans or I don't know what, some versions of Henry, Edward, and El are all present in the RR during the massacre.
Edward is doing some or all of the killing in such a way that impact spatters are being sent onto Henry. the bloody face of one of Edward's victims hits the floor while Henry's back is turned, causing that small spatter on the back of his pant leg.
El's hands are covered with blood. she makes a sweeping motion like this, up and to her right, to throw Edward, and blood casts off her hand onto Henry's shirt.
if an action like the above gif happened, we'd expect to see damage and/or blood on the walls or ceiling of the RR. there are multiple drippy blood impacts on the RR walls. we assume them to have come from the kids (even though this is not consistent with their injuries). what if some or all of that is Edward's blood?
whoever hit the walls would have needed to already be bloody when they hit the wall. (we know from the hallway guards and Two that neither getting thrown against a wall nor Vecna'd up against a wall leaves blood.)
another explanation for already-bloody-Ed and Henry shirt castoff/forward spatter from a physical weapon is if Brenner comes in and tries to stop Edward by beating him with [?object]. but I feel like Ed would overpower Brenner too quickly to get very bloody. this isn't a strong one, I feel better about the bloody hands idea

re: the blood pools on the floor all being smeared even before El gets dragged... you know how El has some way-too-different-to-be-accidental variations in the blood transfer patterns on her gown? could we have multiple Els in play? like, by the time we see our El arrive in the RR, other-bloody-handed-El has already been mucking around the scene?
varying El blood and multiple El concept plays well with the way there are also at least two different crime scenes.


"Nat you idiot, that shot is filmed in the mirror, you're just confusing two different sides of the room. why are your green and purple circles on the same bookcase when they're clearly on two different bookcases on opposite sides of the room?":

YEAH I SURE AM CONFUSED! BC WHY WERE THOSE TWO BOOKCASE STAINS BOTH SHOWN ON THE RED-TOP-RAINBOW-BEND-ON-THE-WALL SIDE OF THE ROOM? the side with that pyramid thing and the plinko board has a red-top rainbow bend. the opposite side, with the benches and the drawing tables, has a purple-top rainbow bend (see below). like, whatever mirror tricks you wanna pull, shouldn't the side of the room with the bookcase corner stain be purple-top-bend? seriously, am I picturing this wrong??

anyway, many of those RR bloodstains could be explained by at least one unaccounted for person being thrown repeatedly around the room. telekinetic people really seem to like doing this to each other.
say El makes that hand motion, which makes One's shirt castoff and throws Edward. Ed hits that bookcase hard enough to get bloodied. Edward gets thrown around some more, leaving various stains around the walls and floors. El or Ed stomps in the blood puddle by the bookcase, resulting in the purple-circled splatter and the spatter on Henry's pant leg.
but if we're allowed to have multiple Els maybe some of the blood is other-El's too. or One's. or Brenner's
I DON'T KNOW. I'M DONE. END MY SUFFERING
#I don't care anymore!!!!! (throws up and dies from caring) (will make another post about this)#I have SO MANY MORE QUESTIONS about the other blood stains in the RR but Im also SO TIRED OF THIS POST#did they MIRROR the BLOOD in the rr? am I having a STROKE?#lab stuff#massacre stuff#analysis#tw blood#mine#givehimthemedicine analysis#a few forensic science classes do not an expert make but there's my five cents (adjusted for inflation). it just looks more castoffy to me#Ive got it: El freezes Edward like Troy and makes him pee his pants while Brenner beats the crap out of him#also I'm saying 'One' thoughout this post because I just don't know what to call this guy anymore. but ykwim#I didn't even get into the monster attack concept I'm just so weary#everyone (me) is just waiting waiting for it all (this post) to be over
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It can be imagined that my close intimacy with Sherlock Holmes had interested me deeply in crime, and that after his disappearance I never failed to read with care the various problems which came before the public, and I even attempted more than once for my own private satisfaction to employ his methods in their solution, though with indifferent success.
🥺🥺 Watson still practicing Holmes’ methods after his seeming death, probably to still feel a connection with him…
#letters from watson#the empty house#I like how the granada version has him working as a medical forensic expert
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have you posted abt the accounting au ??? who’s in AP (that’s me ayoooo)
yeah its ace assurance au (i made it while taking audit lol)
off the top of my head i think i made most of em involved in tax but i think thats ALSO bc i was taking tax so it was all i could think of lololol
at least phoenix and apollo i wanna keep in tax bc the gavins are also in tax and dhurke is a tax attorney, i gave most of the prosecutors vague finance jobs bc i know fuckall about finance (the finance/accounting difference is the hill i will die on). i think athena was in auditing but maybe forensic accounting makes more sense for what her role was supposed to be (havent taken forensic yet but i assume thats what emas gonna be doing here)?
theres still like. murder happening. but they all just go damn thats crazy thank god thats not my job to deal with
tbh i keep forgetting and then retconning things so its all. nonsense
#if im being real with you im flying by the deat of my pants with this au bc my school ONLY talked about public assurance firm jobs#when im trying to go into nonprofit SOOOOO im having to figure out how everything works by myself#thats why i was so excited i got into a program bc it covers gov forensic nonprofit and all that shit#in the dsm theres a disclaimer that having a special interest does not make one an expert in a topic#and next to it theres a picture of me#timscreaming again#ace assurance au
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anthony dinozzo 1000% has adhd, and i love him for it.
(also baby mcgee has asd)
#these are just my headcanons#mdop#ncis#tony dinozzo#also fun fact: david macallum became such an expert#in forensic pathology#he was his own medical consultant#and corrected the writers/showrunners#also#about 4 seasons in#they just started trolling people who complained about the hacking scenes#so just laugh at those and enjoy
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