#from an allo or shipper perspective

[altschmerzes]

out there doing the lord’s work (headcanoning characters as aromantic and Not interested in romantic relationships at all actually, alienating one fandom at a time but having a fantastic blast with it all the while, which is really all that matters)

[aroace-ventplace]

Being in fandom spaces is honestly so exhausting. Because there'll be a character who explicitly expresses disinterest in sex and romance, and most of the fandom will headcanon them as gay/lesbian. Any aspec headcanon will get called homophobic or assumed to be coming from a place of "Christian purity culture" (no I'm not a Christian, wasn't raised Christian and am not from a Christian majority country. Your assumption is racist and xenophobic actually).

Then there'll be characters who are confirmed to be aro/ace. These characters are always shipped with literally every other character and shippers would be like "but aros can still date! And aces can still have sex!" But then you headcanon a character who used to be in a relationship as angled or oriented aroace, and the entire fandom will be like "but this character has been in a relationship before, so they can't be aspec!" These aphobic double standards are infuriating.

YEAH, i've seen all of this so many times i've lost count. i understand that the people who say these things want to see themselves reflected in characters they like, but... so do aspecs. why are our headcanons and interpretations of relationships always treated as less legitimate? why is canonical aspec representation and coding so universally ignored? why does existing as aspec in fandom spaces always have to feel like an uphill battle?

(...and sometimes we get to see new and exciting variations of aspec erasure when certain (allo) creators explicitly say it's totally fine to romantically/sexually ship their aroace characters. that's been a fun one to see play out.)

i stopped interacting with fandoms a long time ago - finding other individual people who don't just tolerate but are actually EXCITED to discuss aspec readings of series has been far better than any fandom experience i've ever had. still, it sucks that larger fandom culture is so hostile to anything outside of the norm (basically: shipping two cis allo white men) that so many people have had to splinter off into their own small groups. i don't have much hope, but maybe one day we'll get to a point where aspec perspectives won't be entirely erased in mainstream fandom. maybe.

[fnafs-ex-boyfriend]

Why shipping aroace characters is different

So I made a post a while back about my distaste for Vivziepop, the creator of Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss. One of the things that I mentioned in that post was that I disliked how callously she treated the shipping of Alastor, her aroace character (note: he is indeed canonically aroace, Vivziepop confirmed that he was ace and an artist on the show clarified that he was aro as well, which seems to be the implication for the character from Vivziepop and her team). I had a few people regard with confusion, asking what the difference was between shipping an aroace character and shipping, say, a straight character in a gay ship. There’s a key difference that I want to cover for my well-meaning allo (not ace or aro) friends. (Note: I definitely have different standards for QPR shipping and friends-with-benefits shipping aro and/or ace characters, but if I see ANY allo people using QPRs without knowledge of how they actually work and use them as an excuse to ship an aro character….i will find you)

The difference that I, an aroace man, have in my mind is that Aroace characters should not be shipped in a traditional way because we have so little representation in the first place. How many gay people have you seen in media? How many bisexuals? How many lesbians? There are numerous examples of these more common sexualities all throughout popular media. One reason why this kind of representation is more popular is mostly due to two factors: One of which is, obviously, that the three listed are more commonly known by the populous, thus are guaranteed to get a better reaction from a widespread audience. The other reason to this is that aro-asexuality has to be represented differently than other orientations. With most orientations, if a creator wants to properly represent their identities, they will put the character in question in a relationship with someone of the same gender as them (Amity from The Owl House or Jackie from Star Versus the Forces of Evil), or they will give the character a chaotic realization-to-coming-out storyline, often tied to a romantic relationship (Nick from Heartstopper). However, with aroace people, you can’t really adhere to this traditional standard, as the entire point of the orientation is a lack of interest in sex or romance. Therefore, they tend to be harder to represent other than giving them a full storyline about their sexuality (Isaac from Heartstopper) or their orientation must be made clear by the creator (Lilith from The Owl House). These factors make aromantic and/or asexual characters quite rare in popular media.

What does this have to do with shipping aro-ace characters? Well, I can name countless well-represented gay, lesbian, and bisexual characters in popular media. But for aroaces, there’s really only a handful. It hurts to not see yourself in media. And, from my perspective, when people ship aroace characters, they’re callously disregarding that fact by ignoring their canon sexuality. Shipping Percy Jackson with Grover or whatever isn’t taking away from straight representation because, well, reread the first half of that sentence. Additionally, never, EVER have I seen people defend people who ship lesbians or gay men with a character of the opposite sex the same way they defend shipping aro-ace characters. Amity x Hunter is a famously reviled ship in the Owl House fandom due to this very fact. What’s the difference between shipping a character who, by definition, isn’t attracted to men, and shipping a character who, by definition, isn’t attracted to anyone?

Anyway, as a media enthusiast, I just wanted to share my thoughts, because this drives me insane when I see things like this. Well-meaning allo shippers, nothing against you, but please try to think about what you’re doing to marginalized communities before doing anything.

Sincerely,

The Number One Annoying Asexual Fandom Guy

[princehendir]

I feeel the irritation towards the weird "shipping culture" takes on a personal level, since, in my experience, a lot of Allo people just looked at Aromantic people's conversations about romance in media (& occasional venting. It wasnt always making a point but it was generally separate from actual criticism which I dont think they... understood LOLOL) & went "Bet I could use the bare bones of this to make people feel bad" & stripped all the nuance (as well as anything even vaguely mentioning Aromantics) away from the discussion

Like its wiiild to me how straightforward it was. Us & our conversations got a bit more attention & then damn near overnight the odd shaming people for participating in shipping culture at all started being a more popular take & Aros got completely kicked out of the argument. Like damn people dont have to agree with us but could they at least not misinterpret our shit then claim it was theirs the whole time?

& it was alllways the folks harassing us online who two days later decided they were better than other people & shipping characterz makes you worse than them & means you have no nuance & never analyze shit. Its crazy how many of the folks trying to act like shippings immature are also reylo types shipping kids & adults together, because to them thats not a contradiction apparently LMAO

Im agreeing with you & bringing this up because I think this is a part of why this whole thing got popular [again] which lots of people dont know about & not me trying to claim this is solely effecting Aros or an attempted end all be all analysis just shit Ive observed and talked to people about

This is an interesting perspective actually so thanks for bringing it up. I can't speak much to this because a lot of what you're talking about is slightly outside of my realm of observance, but it is obvious to me now that I think about it that what is roughly the same set of criticisms has been received very differently depending on who is saying it.

I have noticed the reylo/reylo adjacent/literally-ids-as-a-proshipper but also believes that "shipping" is ruining all culture forever thing too. Frankly a lot of people who bemoan shipping in this way are just literally, shippers, in the classic sense, and do a lot of classic fandom behaviors while simultaneously saying that fandom is rotting brains or w/e. It's literally "it doesn't count when I do it" and it's so..... unserious.

[stardustedknuckles]

omg reading your fears is comforting. good to know that many people are going trough the same. i tend to side with the girls character a lot. esp ash & marish. and c2 made me connect with them sooo hard. so part of me knows it prolly gonna happen again. but what if it does not? what if i don't connect? what if i get bored, or just plain don't like their characters? it hasn't happened yet in oneshots, but... what if? its so scary

Lol if my fears are comforting, pull up a chair. Here's the big one: the assumption I should or will ship anyone. I've been clear about my aspec identity and my aversion/confusion around romance but it's been easy for everyone to ignore since exploring intimacy and trust looks so similar. Next campaign I might not ship anyone. I might have characters have sex outside of the concept of attraction. I might go from writing one of the biggest ships in the fandom to focusing exclusively on perspectives that allos don't really get. I hope I'm allowed to do that in peace. Beauyasha was a beautiful anomaly that ended up canon and that's so cool but I cannot explain enough that I do not consider myself a shipper and you'd all be well served understanding that before I make characters explore relationships together that have nothing to do with shipping. Think circus kids. Platonic sex. That kind of thing. I don't "ship" Molly and yasha, I love the way they understand each other and how easy it is to project my flavor of queer on them. I'm fully aware Yasha's a lesbian and nothing about sex minus attraction detracts from that. I want this understood now, before I go do my own thing next campaign and break a lot of assumptions I didn't create.

Which I guess is the root fear, the fear I carry in day to day life - the fear of being misinterpreted and assumed to be acting in bad faith. I can't control how people see me, and the fact that my interpretations of beauyasha are so easily read as allo and "normal" really makes me nervous about getting explicit about the fact that my priorities and my experiences as a queer NB are transgressive by their very nature.

I'm living for the ten or so of you for whom this is the best news you've heard all day.

[technoxenoholic]

this post is an old vent post of mine which i cannot go back and make unrebloggable. if you see someone has reblogged this post, they are an asshole who disrespects boundaries.

brief shipping gripes from an aroace perspective under cut

i think part of the reason i find kakavege so annoying is that all the shippers seem to make it just a parade of allo romance and sex tropes. so i am just sitting under my blanket over here, cradling my aroace frikus in both hands, hissing at it from a distance.

like... fuck off. goku is quoiro and a sex-indifferent ace. (for that matter, frieza is demiro and cupiosexual.) leave vegeta out of it smh he loves his wife. that was like his whole character arc and y’all want him to screw his queerplatonic rival instead. i’m tired

[angelsndragons]

i know that's not where you (or anyone else, at least from what i've seen so far) are coming from, but i think the reason it's easy to get defensive is because of how often, when a character is revealed to be aspec, it leads to posts about how that doesn't have to interfere with shipping (like because they might be grey-ace or grey-ro, in cases where their exact orientation isn't known), and it can feel dismissive even when that's not what's intended. and added to that, there is no (widely-known) term for shipping non-romantically or non-sexually, which makes it harder to distinguish between shipping that respects a character being ace or aro and shipping that ignores or erases it. (not that that means we should attack shippers, i just wanted to offer a different perspective. also apologies if this isn't super coherent, it's 2am for me)

Hello, anon, I hope you’re doing well.

So, there are a couple of things I want to address about your statement. Firstly, you are right. I agree it can get annoying when people keep pointing out that aro and/or ace characters can end up in relationships after a reveal. I understand that sometimes, it can feel like allos are trying to create a ‘well, they’re not that different from us’ narrative and package us into something that more palatable or acceptable to them and the allonormative society we live in. Yes, it can feel dismissive, as though we are not whole people unless we have the potential to enter into a “normal” relationship. I get it. It is also maddening sometimes how little attention characters get outside of potential romantic and/or sexual partnerships. 

That said, I also don’t want to dismiss the aros and/or aces who choose to enter into what looks to be an allonormative relationship and who also would like some representation or who would like to write a character like them. But here’s the thing: this is the internet and you cannot tell who the person on the other end is. I also find myself wary of saying ‘only the good allos can write a story with an aroace character in a relationship.’ Not only because, again, aroace relationships and statuses are nuanced. Not only because our side of the equation finally factors into people’s perception of a character for once. Not only because this is a good learning opportunity for allos when it comes to our experiences. 

Fans should be allowed to create what they want when they want, period. Yes, even offensive garbage. That is what the tags and blocking are for. I agree with you that we will have to create a few new tags as a fandom to better curate everyone’s experiences. This takes time, patience, and a willingness to assume good faith. It’s a good problem to have.

I do want to say, however, that a person’s relationship status does not change their romantic or sexual orientations. It doesn’t. You might as well say that a single person isn’t het, gay, bi, or many of the myriad of romantic and sexual orientations out there because they’re not in a relationship. An aroace person being in a relationship doesn’t change the fact that they are aroace. Writing an aroace character who has a “romantic” partner or has sex does not erase that character’s aroace identity. Are there better and worse ways to write said relationship? Absolutely. Are people wrong for wanting a way to pick out who is writing that relationship better? No, of course not. That’s why I ask people to boost the content they want and to be patient as the fandom finds better ways of tagging. Amplify and praise the people who write the character and the relationship in a way you find satisfying so that others can find them. So that we can say ‘hey, look, that looks like us, good job.’ Or find people who avoid writing relationships altogether and boost them. 

Bottom line, Caduceus is canonically aroace, no one can take that away from us, any more than fans can take away Beau’s canonically a lesbian. I appreciate everyone trying to be civil as we navigate our way into this wonderful new chapter of our fandom.