Can we get a ranking of speedsters most to least likely to kill
This thing is gonna be an upside down pyramid. Jesus, okay.
Tier 1 (Have killed, will kill)
Jay, Max, Dawn, Don
Tier 2 (Have killed, will kill again but is more prone to torture when angry and/or threatened)
Barry, Bart, Wally
Tier 3 (Hasn't killed but will if needed)
Avery, Ace, Jesse, Jenni
Tier 4 (Actual child)
Irey, Jai, Wade
My explanation for this? Simple. Tier 1 is all people who have actively fought in wars. Jay fought Nazis, he killed people in WW2. That's just what happened. He doesn't feel bad about it. Jay avoids killing people now because he isn't at war currently, but he will kill and has killed if he absolutely has to.
Max has also fought in wars and he has had a long and storied past throughout history. The man has seen and done things. Not all of them good. But yeah, Max has killed. Will he kill again? Unlikely. Unless someone is threatening his daughter or Bart, in which case, yes, it's very likely.
Dawn and Don also fought in a war and killed entire platoons of Dominators. They're unlikely to kill again because they're dead. But if they weren't dead? I'm pretty sure they'd still be fine with killing people in wartime situations.
Tier 2 is a little bit more complicated. Barry, Wally and Bart have all killed people. It's a last resort for them but it's still always an option. If they have to kill the bad guy to save the civilian then they'll kill the bad guy no questions asked. Some people have to die for the time stream to function correctly? Sure. Okay. Especially bigger bads like Darksied. They had absolutely no problem killing Darksied. Oh, and you better watch out if you threaten their loved ones because the people they love are worth dying and killing for.
They don't like it. They really don't like it. But they'll do it.
(Honestly though? Bart is unnerving unfazed by it)
Tier 3. So... This may come as a surprise but I actually haven't read all the LoSH comics? So while I'm fairly certain Jenni hasn't killed anyone, I can't say that 100%. Either way, she'd be down for it if it was the only option.
Avery would 100% be down for murder. So would Ace. That's the Iris West influence right there. Those two kids are not afraid to get their hands dirty and, while I'm fairly certain they haven't yet, I have no doubt that they will. These two just inherited Iris' moral code and she's totally fine with homicide.
Jesse surprises me because she's gotta have killed someone. I'm wracking my brain and nothing comes to mind but I don't buy that for a second. She's just got that homicidal energy, you know? She's 100% done it and will again, I just can't remember when it was.
Tier 4 is the children. Now... to be clear. I'm not saying that they haven't killed anyone because they are children. No, I'm actually fairly positive they have killed a significant amount of people. I'm saying that they are children and therefore do not understand the concept of death. They don't really understand that they've killed people and I don't really think they are any more or less likely to kill again. Until they understand it they are just destructive forces of nature. No malice or intent. Just sheer raw power.
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Not gonna get into danganronpa another spoilers because this whole scene is something else that I’m still processing but I absolutely love this line. Like to bring up milgram I think this is an idea which can reflect on lots of the characters as well. The idea of basing your entire existence off of a certain thing/person/ideology and then for something to happen that completely destroys that. Your entire person has been stripped away and just what’s left? You can’t comprehend your own existence or meaning without that specific attachment and you start to question all of your actions based off that…
I can only really think of John, Kotoko, and Es here (and possibly Amane and Mikoto to an extent). And John bases his life off of Mikoto, Kotoko upholding justice, and Es being the warden.
John’s idea of his whole existence and reason for being is Mikoto. It’s the only reason he believes he exists and if he were to fulfill his role he’d “disappear” as he would be completely worthless without him. John tries to repress and ignore his humanity and reduce himself as a tool to protect Mikoto and that’s all he can see himself as. But now Mikoto’s starting to not deny his existence and feels pure hatred for everything about him. And what will happen to John, when the person he’s dedicated his entire life to and desperately wants praise from, denies his existence? What will he be but some worthless existence that is only a burden, to him.
Kotoko. An ideology of upholding justice and punishing evil that has completely overtaken her. She has pushed herself into a role of a “fang” for justice, protecting the weak and persecuting evil. But even so matter how much she tries, she knows her goals are unreachable. She denies relationships and attachments to other people based on this ideology. Kotoko admits that she does feel attachment to the prisoners, but has to deny them in order to fulfill the role as a tool. And believes that pain and violence is necessary to achieving a greater good. Trying to deny any regret because wouldn’t it be easier to believe you’re entirely in the right? She latched onto Es, believing them to be similar as the warden who carries out judgement on wether the prisoners are forgivable or not. But now, Es has denied her whole ideology, her whole existence due to the pain she’s caused. Kotoko wants to believe that what she did was right and that Es, another enforcer of justice would accept her, because that’s how it is.
And Es… they’re the warden of the prison. There’s nothing more to them than that they believe. Es has no memories of their identity or past before Milgram and immediately latched onto the identity given to them, of being the guard. Es took this role as their entire identity, an extension of the milgram system in order to interrogate and judge prisoners. I think Muu put this best.
“Warden-san, we call you "warden" because that's what you are, right? And I was assigned the role of prisoner, but that doesn't mean I'm now nothing but a prisoner at heart, too. After all, I'm still me.”
Es has an unstable sense of identity, to the point they latched on to the first thing they were given in order to give themselves a purpose and a meaning for existence. And Kotoko calling them “imperfect caused them to question their identity. But as the story progresses Es will probably begin to learn about the audiences control and the truth behind what they assumed to be their verdicts. That their will never was 100% their own. Who knows what Es’ past was, but eventually they’ll likely have to tackle it and their whole identity, the warden, the arms of milgram, is gone.
gonna think about Mikoto and Amane here as well. Mikoto, although may not seem to be as first, focuses his entire identity around other people. He’s the friendly sociable guy who’s easy to chat with. But that’s all he believes he should be, I guess. As perhaps this mindset is upheld by an inherent fear of other people rejecting him, so he focuses all his attention and identity on being a social person. He’s never truly friends with people, as perhaps that would be “too close” and open up the possibility for danger. He doesn’t completely deny his identity like the others, but he molds and shapes it in a way that is acceptable to others. He likes what everyone else likes and does what everyone else does so the fear of being rejected for being different won’t hurt him. But now he’s stopped denying John’s existence and his DID, believing himself to be crazy, and to be completely rejected from other people, his entire sense of identity to an extent. And especially with John scaring other people off with the mindset that will help Mikoto, he has now been completely distanced from everyone else and now has to come to terms with himself, but not the ideal persona he put on to be acceptable to other people.
Amane is a more different case as she in a way has rejected that idea, but not completely. Growing up in a cult it’s very likely that she was always conditioned that she was just a servant for god. That all the good things she did were actually god blessing her and all the bad things a fault of her humanity, herself as a person. She is in a unstable relationship with the whole submitting her personhood to her religion, as she sacrificed her ideologies in order to help a cat. But at the core, that wasn’t about herself and her identity, rather a focus on the cat’s life. Amane’s murder was her will. Rejecting everything and fighting for her life in direct opposition to what she has been taught her entire life and how her identity should be, a rejection of that and a glance into “herself”. But once again, this murder wasn’t entirely self motivated. She’s still broken enough that she can’t fully grasp herself as a person besides god and religion. And a large cause of her murder was out of the death of the cat, rather than simply protecting herself. Amane still slips back into the belief that her personhood is entirely dedicated to god. As she tried to convince herself and Es that the only reason she killed is because they deserved religious punishment and she is in the right for carrying out god’s will, once again denying her personal reason for doing so. Reducing herself to “we” on behalf of her religion, that this isn’t herself anymore. Amane is in a limbo between rejecting her personhood for god, but at the same time rejecting the suffering she’s been through in order to save “herself”. Amane’s case is so interesting, as there’s no clear answer of what she believes in here, and it is truly fascinating.
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Hello! ✨
Something for the Thenamesh 10 Things AU!
What about some drama with Arishem. He heard a stupid rumor that his daughter Thena had some dirty time with a "bad boy" at a gas station or a workshop. Arishem was storming out of the house when Thena an Sersi came home and he yelled at her and grabbed her, trying to drag her into the house. And then, of course, Gilgamesh shows up and makes it even worse, because Arishem thinks he's this, in the rumor mentioned, "bad boy".
🖤✨Hugs and Love✨🖤
"Thena!"
Thena and Sersi both jumped as their father's voice rattled the air around them. Sersi stood from where she and Thena were sitting on the front step together. "F-Father, what-"
"Silence," the monstrous man stepped closer to them, forcing Thena to her feet with the pressure of his presence. He loomed over them. "Thena, I have heard rumours of you."
"What rumours?" she asked outright. It wouldn't do her any good to play stupid with her father. "Whatever it is, I'm certain it's false."
"Is that so?" he queried, leaning over his eldest daughter more. "I was told you went looking for...transportation."
Thena bristled.
"It is my understanding that you have formed an associative attachment with someone," Arishem paused, "less than reputable."
"Please say who you mean, Father," Thena asked, which was as good as wagging her finger and sassing him.
"Gilgamesh," Arishem spat out the name with distaste. "A young delinquent who will be lucky to graduate school, let alone attend a secondary education befitting of this family."
"And what does that have to do with anything?"
"You know the rules," he spoke deeply and evenly, eyes bearing down on Thena with her head directed at her shoes. "You do not let the common animals bed you, especially not the likes of unlawfuls."
"Father!" Sersi spoke up in a surprising bout of rebellion. "I don't know what you're talking about but Thena-"
"Was seen with this young man several times," Arishem concluded for his second daughter. And favourite, if Thena needed any more proof than this very conversation. "Including, entering and exiting his vehicle."
"I did not realise asking for a ride was strictly forbidden," Thena spoke up for herself again, which she had never done as much of in the past. But she managed to drag her eyes up to glare at her father, "truly I must be the whore of Babylon, then."
Arishem's eyes flared, only making his dark, devilish appearance even worse. "Enough."
"Father!" Sersi gasped.
"Inside," he snarled, gripping Thena's arm and dragging her up the rest of the stairs and towards the door.
"Hey!"
All three heads turned as a figure walked up the sidewalk and towards the house. "I don't know what the hell's happening, but let go of her."
Arishem stared down the young man walking towards him so brazenly. "You."
"Me," Gil made a face at him. Arishem's height didn't bother him, nor the sheer size of his figure, wide shoulders and monstrous limbs. Gil shrugged at him, moving his jacket with his hands inside the pockets.
Arishem looked down at Thena, in his clutches like a bird being shoved into a cage, "truly? This is with whom you wish to associate?"
"Father, please!" Sersi pleaded, tugging at his other sleeve in an effort to help her sister.
"Father?" he an even more sneering face at him. He walked up a few steps towards them. "You're their asshole of a dad?"
Arishem's spine straightened, each vertebra locking into place so he could glare down at the boy. "You have the audacity to address me so improperly?"
His eyes dashed down to the hand around Thena's arm. "I have a problem with anyone who handles their own kid like this."
"Gil, don't-!" Thena bit her lip as her father pulled her upwards, forcing her to stretch up with the impossible angle of her arm within his frighteningly high grasp.
"Gilgamesh," Arishem addressed, still holding onto Thena like an escaped convict. "I will say this only once: whatever claim to my daughter you think you possess, put it from your mind."
"Put it from my mind?" he repeated back as if he hadn't heard it the first time at all. "The fuck is wrong with you?"
Arishem brought his shoulders forward. "You-"
"No, you!" Gil belted back at him, jabbing his finger up in his face despite the difference in their height. Gil didn't back down in the least in the face of the monster of a man. "You listen to me, fuck-face! I don't care if you're their dad, I don't care if you spoon feed them from gold plates every single day! You don't handle them like this!"
Gilgamesh reached forward, taking advantage of the surprise on Arishem's face and grasped Thena's hand in his. He pulled faintly, but Arishem's grip hadn't loosened any.
His eyes looked as black as coal. "Unhand her."
"Stop hurting her," Gil barked right back at him. "I don't know what happened here, and I don't give a shit. She doesn't deserve this."
"Gil."
He looked at her, grief stricken by the whimper in her voice.
"Enough!" Arishem bellowed, his voice once again seeming like it could rustle the leaves in the trees. He let go of Thena, who stumbled like a fawn into Gil's offered support. "It seems I was right to deem you a lost cause."
"Who the hell talks about their own kid like that?"
"You," Arishem turned his attention back to Gilgamesh, whose hold on Thena's shoulders tightened. "If I ever lay my eyes on you again, your life in this town will cease to exist. Do you understand?"
Gilgamesh didn't even blink, holding Thena against his chest, "I understand that you're a prick who's lucky his daughters didn't turn out to be psychos too."
Perhaps with nothing more he could do to exercise control over the situation, Arishem turned and walked back into the house. The door slammed closed and Sersi's somewhat panicked breathing became more audible.
"Hey," Gil said gently, tipping Thena's chin his way, "are you okay?"
Thena just blinked, somewhat stunned by the past minutes.
"Thena!" Sersi rushed over to her, practically in tears. "I-I-I can't believe Father would-!"
Gil moved aside as Sersi threw her arms around her sister. Thena would never call herself a 'hugger' by nature, but Sersi was always the more emotional of the two of them. She patted her sister's back, "I'm okay."
Her eyes met Gil's, who still had quite a snarly look on his face. "Are you?"
Thena blinked before nodding, "I am."
Gil shifted on his feet, nodding his head in the direction of the front door, "are you gonna be okay going in there?"
Thena had her reservations, but their Father, at the very least, never dwelt on them for long. "I have no concern with what his opinion is of me. But don't worry, he would never expend the effort it would take to hurt me."
Gil eyed her arm--the one that had been wrenched upward in her father's grasp. "You sure about that?"
Sersi pulled herself away from Thena to offer a positively furious expression, no matter how tearful. "I cannot believe Father would act this way. I'm going to tell him that I will never forgive him for this!"
Thena nearly laughed, watching Sersi stomp her way into the house to give 'daddy' a piece of her mind. She rubbed her hands over her arms, "if it comes from Sersi, he is more apt to listen."
"Hey."
Thena looked at him as he placed his hands over hers, letting her guide his hands over her arms as well. She immediately thought of the hoodie that was inside, sitting on her bed waiting for her.
"Are you really okay?" he whispered, as if her father were lying in wait, listening. He ducked his head closer to hers, "you don't have to go in there. My Uncle would have no problem with you staying with us. He has a guest room!--and my room in the basement is-"
Thena smiled, tapping just the tip of her finger to his lips. She had never had the privilege of seeing Gilgamesh ramble on and on. It was endearing. "I am not afraid of my father, Gil, nor will I be afraid of walking into my own home."
"But-" he tried to protest, but she sealed his lips shut again.
"It is a sweet offer," she conceded. She never would have anticipated it, and it was almost humorous to imagine Gil just...showing up with her, like some stray he wanted to keep. "And I appreciate it. But I promise I will be fine here."
He sighed, obviously not in favour of leaving her here to whatever her father had in store for her. "Yeah?"
"Yeah," she echoed back to him, just to see a smile on his face. It was small, but it was there. "I'll come find you tomorrow--prove my living status to you."
He chuckled, stepping back from her with a roll of his eyes, "okay Princess, whatever makes you feel better."
This was very literally for his benefit. But she didn't mind that so much, "very well. Tomorrow, then."
Gil took the steps backwards, staring at her as he made his way back across the street, "looking forward to it."
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I've decided to make my own post because I am not an idiot, but full disclosure that this post is 50% based on thoughts I was having while I was driving home from the auto repair shop yesterday and 50% a response to a post I saw just now that conflated "redemption arcs" (things fictional characters go through in fictional stories) with "community support" (things real life people offer to other real life people in real life) and how this relates to "fixing people" (making someone who mistreats or abuses themself or others not mistreat or abuse themself or others anymore).
Read my words very carefully.
In fiction, it is more than okay to like whatever type of toxic or fantastical relationship you want. If you like to read stories about toxic, codependent people who are absolutely horrible to one another and will never, ever change, you read those stories. If you like to read stories about a tortured man who just needs The Right Person to teach him to be better, and then he is, sometimes exclusively only to them though, then you read those stories. Sometimes you want to read stories where the main character says "I can fix him" and fails spectacularly, and sometimes you want to read stories where the main character says "I can fix him" and succeeds spectacularly, and either way, you read whatever stories you want, whatever makes you happy, I'm sure it's somewhere in this vast Archive that we call Our Own.
However, in real life?
First of all, "arcs" aren't things real life people have. An arc is something that has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Real life people don't have those, because our stories don't end until we die. Unlike a character, whose life presumably continues even after their story ends (except in circumstances where they die at the end but you know what I mean), we have to keep living day by day, with all the rises and falls that come with it. Now, this does not mean that a person cannot change, or that a person can't get better and learn from their mistakes; but it DOES mean that we can't have a "redemption arc" where we complete a checklist of story beats and then suddenly we're a better person who has experienced the necessary growth to be forgiven. First off, no amount of growth or change ever requires any victims to forgive. And second, that's just not how life works. That's not how change works. Change and growth are baby steps taken each day, and sometimes you go backwards, and you get angry with yourself, but then you pick yourself up and you try again the next day, and the next, and the next. It's an ongoing journey that does not end until you die. That's life.
But second and more importantly, the real idea that I think the original post was trying to get at, but missing the mark on was . . . okay.
So, the original OP of the post (and the person who replied to OP) got angry at the idea that the strawman they had invented (the person who had theoretically said "you can't fix him!") would deny support to someone who needs that help to grow and change as a person. The person who had replied in support of OP added that the strawman clearly believed in punitive justice over rehabilitative justice as well. On the surface, I can see where they are coming from. After all, on the whole humans are a social species and do need support networks in order to not only thrive, but survive. People such as drug addicts need support and assistance in order to get into better places in their lives, and the prison system has been proven to be far less effective at preventing repeated offenses than rehabilitative programs. This is all true.
However.
The reason why "you can't fix them" is still true, and needs to be said and understood particularly by those who are susceptible to falling into abusive relationships (e.g. people who have been abused before, particularly in childhood or adolescence) is because of free will. Specifically, the free will that each of us has, but specifically the other person. Person A can want so, so, so badly to "fix" Person B so that they stop being an abusive alcoholic 75% of the time. But if Person B doesn't actually want to stop being an abusive alcoholic (even if they say they do during the 25% of the time they aren't smacking Person A around), and refuses to put in the work that it takes to become sober and be a better person, then guess what? Nothing Person A does will ever make them be a sober, non-abusive partner. They will be unable to fix Person B. It doesn't matter how much time, energy, money, or commitment they pour into that person. It doesn't matter how much they genuinely, honestly, earnestly love them. Because unless Person B wants to change, and will put the work into doing so, then they will not change, and Person A, for their own health, safety, and sanity, needs to exit that relationship.
Now, does that mean that if, ten years down the line, Person B decides they are ready to put in the work to get their alcoholism under control, no one should help them? Of course not! They should absolutely be put in touch with sober counselors, support groups, medical professionals, friends and family who can help them. Person A could potentially forgive them, if Person A chooses. But that willingness to change and put in the work has to come from within Person B first.
I've been in the position where I've seen people in awful situations just tanking their lives, people I loved and cared about, people I begged to just listen to me and get help, only for them to not . . . and ultimately I had to accept that I couldn't fix them. I could be there to offer support when they were ready to fix themselves, but the core work that needed to be done had to come from within themselves. I couldn't provide that. Not because I was inadequate, not because I didn't love them, but because I couldn't force them to do anything they didn't want, or weren't ready, to do.
So at the end of the day, "you can't fix them" isn't about not giving support. It's about recognizing your limitations as a human being. It's about knowing that:
You cannot force someone to do something they do not want to do.
You cannot force someone to do something they are not ready to do.
Not being able to help or save someone is not a moral failing of yours.
Not being able to help or save someone does not mean you do not love or care about them.
Providing support should never come at risk of your own health and safety, physical or otherwise.
When you love someone, it can be really hard to accept this. You think, "I know I can make them want to try. I know I can inspire them to want to change. I know they love me, so if I just love them a little harder, they will want to change." Nine times out of ten, though, that is just not true. And if someone is abusing you, it is not worth the literal risk to your life to keep trying. You are worth more than that. You are more than just someone else's band-aid.
Keep yourselves safe in 2024.
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