#honestly in general even without a Tav and Durge

[catcr4ft]

I’m thinking of a Tav and Durge run……. Canon appearance Durge lands on the shore next to the shipwreck and recruits Shart, Astarion and Gale and my horrible little feylost bard (wip) lands near the grove and recruits Lae’zel, Wyll and Karlach.

Team 2 has their hang ups about each other;

Wyll and Karlach are put on edge by Tav’s twisting of words + blatant lack of transparency about everything because they have significant trauma and experience dealing with devils

Lae’zel is the bluntest most open person to ever exist and dislikes deception, Tav is used to dealing with beings unable to be straightforward and speaks in riddles

Wyll and Karlach want to save the tieflings, Lae’zel thinks they should suck up and the goblins aren’t their problem and they should get to the creche before they all fucking die, Tav struggles with the concept of returnless charity and how the druids doing this is morally wrong

I think Wyll implies that he doesn’t like bards in one of his lines and I find that extremely funny. But yeah, it makes sense, he’s a folk hero, he’s probably been harassed by volo-esque people before.

But they generally get on pretty well-

Tav, being a bard tasked with regaling their Archfey with tales of the other realms, is very eager to hear about the astral plane and the Blade’s adventures. (And is immensely respectful of their boundaries since anything less is prone to be a sentence worse then death with the fey) Both of them love talking about it. Karlach jokingly calls them dorks (affectionate). Tav could also bond with Lae’zel over adjusting to different planes.

Tav also has ridiculously high charisma. Their original build is an Eloquence bard Fey wanderer lol. They’re very polite, charming and fun to be around in general.

Wyll, Lae’zel and Karlach just get along well canonically! Wyll and Lae’zel swap tales and like listening to each other. Lae’zel and Wyll both admire Karlach iirc. Karlach calls Lae’zel a lunatic (affectionate) who she couldn’t bear losing, and yeah really likes Wyll. He’s a ridiculously morally upstanding guy, and stuck his neck out for her at significant price to himself (which, as she tells you, hasn’t happened to her for… at least fifteen years? Not sure on the age)

And all in all- the group has a good sense of camaraderie and is pretty cheerful, considering their circumstances.

Group 1 on the other hand is a hot mess-

Durge oscillates wildly between gleefully indulging the urge and being terrified and confused about it. Is this normal? This isn’t normal. Why is this happening to him? Hates Fel.

Shadowheart trusts absolutely nobody here, and as they progress through the village gets increasingly stressed as to why her goddess is torturing her.

Astarion is having the best time he’s had in centuries, but is vaguely wary and on edge about everybody. (Yes, he is sleeping with the extremely powerful and dangerous dragonborn for security, but is that really a win when said dragonborn rips people’s guts out while cackling at the slightest inclination?) (Don’t get him wrong, it’s hilarious, he just thinks the ripping out guts could use a little more… discretion.)

Gale is going to explode. Gale is coming to terms with his inevitable demise, surrounded by people with barely an inkling of diplomacy in them.

They eventually meet, and Shadowheart (who fully assumed that she’d escaped the githyanki) despairs when she sees Lae’zel. It takes a few seconds for them to start arguing. The teams end up grouping up because of the tadpole threat, It’s all very tense. Tav is just happy they have a healer and a cook now.

[sorrelchestnut]

I've seen a fair number of posts both here and on reddit that question why Tav (or the Dark Urge) would end up as a group leader for any other reason that "game mechanics say so." There's the requisite "okay, well if you play a high charisma character I guess it makes sense," or on the other end of the spectrum, "if you're playing Durge and murder someone right off the bat everyone would be too scared to tell you no." And I get where people are going with this! I really do. But it also fundamentally misunderstands a facet of human nature, which is that the vast majority of people do not actually want to be in charge, because that means being held responsible for the outcome. Accordingly, most people will dither when a group consensus is needed: have none of you ever tried to get a group of friends to agree where to go for dinner? Yeah, it's like that, but waaaay worse.

A lot of times "leadership" is just the willingness to say, "fuck it, y'all do what you want, but I'm doing this." I see it all the time in a corporate environment, where people will go back and forth on group meetings without anyone making a decision until finally one brave soul goes "in my opinion the clear answer is x" and then everyone gratefully goes along with it. Because now it's not their responsibility when something goes wrong! They're just following along with someone else's suggestion, and maybe it works or maybe it doesn't, but at the end of the day they don't have to worry about the consequences unless they're personally affected. In which case they might step up and argue back, and then they're stuck being a leader, too. Welcome to adulthood!

Lae'zel is the only one who ever even tries to exert some kind of control, when she tells you to follow her lead on the ship, or calls you her subordinate in the Grove. But, crucially, she doesn't ever make any serious attempt to take control: you can just tell her, "lol, no," and she sort of confusedly gives way, because she doesn't know how to handle this scenario. In her world there are commanders and subordinates, and everyone knows where they stand and falls in line. She's never actually had to take control of a situation and so at the first sign of resistance she falls back on the dynamic that's familiar to her, which is executing the commands of someone older and more experienced. She goes through a lot of growth over the game, to the point that she can take over as a resistance leader in her own right by the end, but at the beginning she's a wet-behind-her-ears private with some decent combat chops and it shows.

Otherwise, your party consists of:

Shadowheart, who's trained in infiltration and assassination and does NOT want a lot of attention brought to her or her mission for a variety of reasons;

Astarion, who has literally been a slave for two centuries and canonically takes a while to realize that he can exert an opinion beyond complaining about it;

Gale, whose only friend is his cat and couldn't project-manage his way out of a wet paper bag;

Wyll, who was probably trained for command at one point but has been doing the lone-hero thing for a decade and has a very large secret that he's trying to conceal; and,

Karlach, who's only ever been a bodyguard and a soldier and is genuinely just happy to be here.

Honestly, it would be more a surprise if Tav/Durge didn't end up as their unofficial leader, given the general power dynamics at play. The first time Tav/Durge says something like, "fuck it, we need to do something instead of stand around arguing about it, let's go check out those ruins over there," it's a done deal. They're The Captain Now! As long as they don't make decisions that fundamentally oppose something dear and important to the other group members, they're not even going to get any argument. Because at the end of the day, not one of these walking disasters has enough trust in themselves and their decision-making skills to feel any kind of certainty that they can choose the right path forward. If someone else is going to take that decision out of their hands? They're going to follow, no questions asked, right up until the moment they can't.

[acreaturebythewater]

Tav/Durge datasheet

Got tagged by the lovely @savriea, thank you!!! tagging @adoenamedjane @elizauh if you wanna <3

This is Tav from You keep showing up. She and I haven't even gotten to the grove yet buuuuut with a pinch of imagination and the knowledge of what she gets up to afterward, I made this up together with some of my general opinions. I probably could've chosen some Tav/Durge I've finished the game with buuuuut (2) she's all I can think about lately.

Tried keeping this simple, yapped a lot.

Name: Ester 'Tav' (there was another Ester in her class and Tavanthuriel is just a mouthful)

Family name: Tavanthuriel

Age: 155

Race: High elf (Moon elf, I've decided)

Class (if multiclass, levels): Sorcerer of the stormy flavour

Alignment: Chaotic good bordering on chaotic neutral sometimes

Deity: Aerdrie Faenya

Favorite spells/skills (only three): Chain of lightning, shocking grasp, and she's a master at persuasion.

Armour during Act 1: Sorcerer robe

Armour during Act 2: The Protecty Sparkswall

Armour during  Act 3: Vest of Soul Rejuvenation (Gale snatches the robe of the weave which Tav was fine with because honestly that robe isn't pretty)

Camp clothing: Astarion's camp clothes (mostly to get him out of that slutty shirt so I don't accidentally romance him again).

Favorite dyes: Black and Jade dye

Weapons during Act 1: Starter quarterstaff/The Spellsparker

Weapons during Act 2: Spellsparker!!! (lightning charges go brrrr)

Weapons during Act 3: Markoheshkir, Gale ain't snatching that (Thank you, Rolan!!!)

Buffs you have achieved:

None this far but girl's gonna get whipped (Loviatar's love) and she'll read that book without sparing a thought (Tharchiate Vigour).

Best bro/sis companion (until two): Astarion

Main love interest: Technically Raphael, thinking about romancing Lae'zel in the play through though...

Favorite NPC (only three): Lia (they are BFFs), Raphael (reluctantly), literally anyone she can tease a bit

Favorite enemy: Raphael 😈

Favorite battle: Halsin in the portal (I love that battle don't @ me)

Favorite scene: Lifting the shadowcurse

Favorite dialogue: Ummmm not quite sure

Decision about Absolute at the end: Frees Orpheus, destroys the brain, gives crown to Mystra.

Your Tav/Durge screenshot:

I should get one in good lighting but cannot be arsed booting up the game right now.

Fun fact: Our girl studied at Arkhen's Invocatorium but hardy graduated so that failed Arcana is completely in character.

[maddonkeydidnothingwrong]

General 4, 7

Story 7, 12, 17

Romance 1, 6, 7, 11

Hi friend!! Thank thank you 🧡🧡🧡

From this post

General

4. What sort of general actions raise or lower their approval?

Generosity. Acts of heroism. These raise her approval. If you’re good, kind, and show people mercy.

She doesn’t like thieves or people who lie without a good reason. If you’re lying to avoid bloodshed, that she can understand, but if you’re lying to rob someone. She will disapprove.

7. Do they have their own personal quest that spans the course of the game?  Can it take different branching paths depending on the choices the Player Character makes?

Cordelia does have her own personal quest and explaining it all might require its own post. In short: Cordelia was essentially a prisoner in the city. Her parents kept her magically stuck so that she could never leave Baldur’s Gate on her own. The nautiloid and the prism allow her to have some freedom, so she has conflicted feelings about the tadpole.

She’s also a huge nerd who wants to understand her own sorcerous magic and its origins. Following the threads for that converge with the threads of her family.

There aren’t any branching paths before act 3 (short of dying), but in act 3 you can make some big choices that determine how she feels about you, herself, and whatever relationship you two have

Story Specific

7. Already answered :))

12. Is it possible for your Tav to be kidnapped and replaced by Orin?  How is Orin's deception revealed?  How do they react to the PC rescuing them in the Temple of Bhaal?

I think so, yes, but Orin won’t have a fun time pretending to be Cordelia. Actually, she might have a really hard time. I haven’t finished a durge run so I’m no Orin expert, but Orin seems to assume that everyone is a little bloodthirsty. Her insisting she understands what you need when you talk to her pretending to be that blacksmith suggests that.

Cordelia is genuinely a kind, sweet person who feels bad anytime they’ve had to hurt people.

She develops nightmares and ptsd from the people they’ve had to kill.

I think Orin would have a difficult time pretending for so long, she might get fed up and reveal herself.

Cordelia is a hugger. She would hug them for saving her and try really really hard not to cry lol

17. If romanced, how do they react to the Dark Urge trying to kill them in Act 2?

Oooo I haven’t gotten far enough in the durge run, so honestly I haven’t thought about it. My first, initial thoughts? Badly. She would react badly, and even if she could be convinced to stay in a relationship, I can’t imagine she sleeps easily for awhile after that.

I don’t see that going well, no.

Romance

1. Already answered 🎉

6. How do they react to the player character breaking up with them, or choosing another character over them?

Depends. I think flagging her romance requires more than just flirting. You would have to have pursued her for awhile before getting a kiss and more.

If you get that far and then romance someone else, she would be hurt, because by then it would’ve been clear that she’s monogamous. She wants a big romance, to be and feel special to someone.

If you break that trust, good luck getting it back. You can convince her to stay in the party, she still needs your help, but she’ll have very little to say to you.

11. What are Tav’s plans for the future?  Do they propose to the PC, or is marriage not something they’re interested in?

This might depend a bit on how you influence her in her character arc.

She is for sure interested in spending the rest of her life with you, but how that looks like can change.

If you encourage her to be heroic and to prioritize other people, she will want to continue adventuring, and will want you by her side. She would be delighted by a proposal of marriage (and if you went with her, she may even propose on her own one day)

If you encourage her to think of herself that can go in more than one way.

You get married, take over her family’s social place in Baldur’s Gate. (And if Wyll stays as Duke, she works closely with him as a friend and advisor).

OR. If you prioritized her power and chipped away at her sense of morality, she follows you in wtvr dastardly plans you have. However, I think she remains in her core a good person, and she will grow increasingly unhappy and traumatized. It doesn’t go well.

Alternatively, if encouraged to balance her priorities, she wants to marry you and will want to settle down somewhere quiet and peaceful. She just wants you and her friends, and to not worry about everything anymore.

[yandere-sins]

I know this is a yandere blog, but you mentioned BG3 and I just have to say (keeping these vague to avoid spoilers where possible)...

My first romance was Wyll. I don't know how I, someone who usually goes for the characters that clearly have something deeply concerning about them, ended up with the literal prince charming of the game AND LIKING HIM. His romance was so pure, no horny, and I just... I love him and felt guilty every time I even looked at someone else (it didn't stop me from romancing my Guardian, but that's a different story).

Second run through? I went after Minthara and that relationship was so unhinged. Woman sat on the throne of her vanquished foe and she stole my entire heart. Every time she offered violence in my honor I had to stop from having a make out session.

Astarion is my next romance, but that file is still in act 1. Can't wait to see how that ends up.

I always love to chat though, so no worries! I'm just not taking non-yandere requests but otherwise everything is fair game ^-^

Oh man, I really like... want to romance Wyll because he is soooo sweet and wholesome, but in my first playthrough I found him and Karlach way too late (think I did half of the map and interactions of Act 1 without finding out how to recruit them) so he wasn't really interested in flirting with my first Tav and now with my second I kind of kindled the flame but I couldn't get myself to choose any of the monogamous LI for the tiefling party since that Tav is meant to be with Halsin (and good Astarion probably).

But I look forward to my Durge run because I will finally be able to recruit Minthara there ♥ I love her so much because I am a bit biased towards Drows in general, but I am not sure if I will date her since even before starting to play, I learned that with Ascended!Astarion you can get some special dialogue if you take over the brain and I kinda want that for my Durge. Maybe I'll need to go for a fourth run at this point because I really like Minthara, she's the better 'mean' character in my opinion, sorry Lae'zel >-<

Honestly, I wish I could date everyone lol. I just want to have all the romances at once but I also like that it's realistic and you can't just be in a relationship with everyone in camp, lol.

Good luck in your future runs! May you be blessed with all the romance you want ^^

[blackjackkent]

im so inspired and in lovvveee w u (as a fan!! no parasocial shenanigans here I swear 🫶)

When they said they weren't doing any more DLC for the game, I wasn't sad, actually. I noticed there's a big divide of peeps who like the game right? I realized this when I saw there were people who *always* play Durge and think it 100% hands down better than Tav, and seeing in the forum why people actually *liked* playing Tav over Durge, And it's like because Tav can be anyone with any story. Durge is really just a customizable pre-existing character (That's why they're under origin character, right?)

So that's what I realized the divide of people. There's always going to be certain people who prefer to play Something with a pre-existing story, people who don't enjoy the extra work of making your own character. But for people who do, the lack of DLC is disappointing but not a big deal. Because ask someone who has always enjoyed making her own characters, The end of a story is never really the end for me. And all that jibber jabber to say I see it in YOU too, and I looooooovvvve it! You're such a good writer and it's fabulous 🫶

though, as someone previously non-experienced with D&D, I do admit that makes imagining the future a little bit harder, despite, What really is probably one of the most Fanfiction-Friendly properties 😂

I did want to ask for advice on that if you have any to spare! Like, for example, I'd love to write about my own Tav and Karlach rolling around in Avernus, but I have no idea where to start even looking 😭

:O This was a fun message to receive! c: I appreciate so much that you like my writing and reached out. <3

You def make an interesting point about the Durge vs Tav experience. I think there's a lot of room for character headcanon even when you're playing Durge tbh (certainly I'm enjoying giving Rakha her own sense of personality and such), but you're right that it adds a bit more of a "built-in" framework for people who prefer that kind of experience and not having to think too much about the character details.

(It also, without giving too much away, is very representative of the character experience in BG1/2 - which was more of a Tav/Durge mix, really.)

But yeah, I also feel okay about the lack of DLC because there is lots of room to come up with the story I want outside of the events of the game. :)

As far as advice - I think you're asking specifically for advice on writing within the Forgotten Realms world and D&D sphere in general? Tbh I am not the hugest expert on the subject myself; there is a lot more FR lore than just what comes up in this series and I am by no means familiar with most of it.

My practical advice would be to point you towards the Forgotten Realms wiki, which is where I get most of my info that I can't get from the game's own dialogue. (Sadly it's a fandom.com wiki - if anyone else has other resources that particularly like for FR lore I would love your comments also!) There's lots of info in there that I've drawn from when needed for my fics.

On a more general level though - honestly I think my best advice is to get comfortable with the idea of getting lore wrong. We love to play in this sandbox but we're allowed to bring our own toys too. :D So if something feels like it'd make a better story by being a certain way, then fuckin go for it. :) Any reader who wants to make a stink about details being off isn't actually there to appreciate your story anyway. And the vast majority of readers are there in good faith to see what you're going to come up with and enjoy it. :)

(I've been thinking about this a lot in the context of writing "Open Your Eyes", because they're off to Calimport now and I have realized I know nothing about Calimport. XD So I've been studying the wiki a lot but I've also made an executive decision to not stress myself overly about it and focus on making the setting work for the story and not the other way around. I dont really mind if someone ends up letting me know (politely) that I missed the mark on something, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it if I'm pleased with the story regardless. :D )

I hope this is the sort of answer you were looking for! Sending very supportive vibes for your writing adventures also. c:

[undead-potatoes]

24 and 27 for both your tav and durge from their respective ask lists please :)

24. What first impression does your Tav give off to strangers?

Very friendly, if a little over-energetic. He's usually quite polite, even when people are being assholes, and many probably find his cheerful disposition very annoying lmao

27. How does your Tav feel about giving and receiving orders?

It really depends on who is giving those orders and why. No-one gets to boss him around without good reason (he's had enough of that), especially if they're being rude or demanding about it. But most of the time his helpful nature triumphs everything else, and he'll accept orders and make himself useful as long as its within his own boundaries of what's okay or sensible. He is, however, liable to do things his own way so specific instructions might be lost along the way. EDIT: He is, however, much better at giving orders. They're rarely served as orders tho, but rather suggestions and gentle persuasion. People are a lot more likely to do as you wish if you ask them with a please and a thank you.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

24. Does your Dark Urge have a treasured item with them? If yes, what is it and why is it special? If no, how do they feel about item sentimentality in general?

Hmm I don't think Aurora was carrying anything with her when she was on the Nautiloid, having spent weeks in the "care" of Kressa who probably stripped her of anything unnecessary. Aurora is incredibly sentimental though, and that includes item sentimentality. She's the kind of person who would struggle to throw out an old sweater coming apart at the seams because 1) it's wasteful, and 2) her old neighbor who has since passed knitted it for her and it IS rude to throw away gifts and [the excuses and explanations go on for another 3 minutes].

27. How does your Dark Urge feel about giving and receiving orders?

Pre- and post-cult Aurora? Just fine. She was never the one to seek attention or take charge, and is perfectly content to be delegated as someone in charge sees fit. Amnesia Aurora is also too scatterbrained to take the lead anyways, so it's probably nice to have someone else who seems to know what they're doing. Cult Aurora however? Absolutely not. Being Bhaal's special little meow meow makes her way too self-important, seeing almost everyone else beneath her, and no-one but Bhaal has the right to tell what to do. The exception is probably Gortash, but he knows ordering her is out of the question; he'll have to respectfully ask or suggest something, gently coaxing her where he wants her. EDIT: Forgot about the "giving orders" part. Once again, Pre- and post-cult Aurora is more of a follower than a leader, and honestly feels weird about ordering people around. Cult Aurora is great at it though, ordering people around to get shit done with a real "my way or the highway" mindset. (Though much of the time she thinks she has to do things herself to make sure they get done right).

From this Tav ask meme (Durge version)

[transkingcobra]

Also just. Every one of the origins is a follower.

Lae’zel knows what’s going on with illithid bullshit - but she’s no leader of her people, she’s fighting to be seen amongst her people by her queen. She’s also in a very different place with very different people - while she mentions subordinates so she may have some experience with leading, she is still very young so that experience will be short, these are not fellow gith she has to deal with, and the violent ways she leans with her preferences are a very different set of skills for searching for a crèche in this unknown area.

Shadowheart may be in the grooming process to become a leader, but she doesn’t know that, and she’s nowhere near being allowed a position remotely close to a leader - Viconia never believes her good enough, and constantly puts her down. She’s not allowed to lead. And generally speaking, you have a gith with you. The gith won’t trust someone who just took issue with her race, and Shadowheart won’t trust a gith, so that defaults to Tav/Durge.

And so by this point typically you already have a set leader, even really before Shadowheart, but of course you don’t have to have any of these people when meeting a companion for the first time.

Gale does not seem the kinda guy used to group cooperation. When you’re the poster boy for gifted kids, your focus is on what you yourself can do, how good you are at it, in this case how good is he with magic. That isn’t much of a group effort, that seems simply a case of studying and practice, at most with a teacher to guide and peers to bounce off of, but not to a collective goal. Even outside of a classroom, Mystra was his teacher then imbalanced lover - he was never in the leading position. He’s book smart, he can cast spells, he can be the devil’s advocate yet try to steer your opinions towards good, but he’s no leader. And then he just spent a year in isolation speaking to no one but Tara. His social skills in general are gonna be shaky.

Astarion hasn’t been able to lead his own life let alone anyone else’s for two centuries. He doesn’t know what to do, even without the “I’m not a details person” mindset. Also: he’s an escaped pet. He needs protection. He doesn’t much care about anything but surviving and being free at the end of all of this. And the easiest way to have protection here is to let someone take the lead and want to protect you, not demand it from them. So his goal is to get the important people on his side - the leader will unify the group to his goal, or (iirc) going for the strongest (touchable) member, Lae’zel, should the leader not play along.

Wyll is quite honestly my personal favorite for choosing a leader among the origins. But he’s still not used to leading people. He’s second youngest and been alone for seven years - before that he was also no leader, he was still a teen. He knows how to fight, but it seems he’s been on his own this whole time for it. When you recruit him it’s pretty much either “I’m gonna do my own thing with this devil but if we find a cure for this worm that’s cool too” or “oh shit I’ve been lied to I guess I’ll hang with you because you’re right and I need help if I’m to figure out this worm.” So he either doesn’t care about the tadpole but will accept the help, or he’s now feeling lost after the deception and still needs help with the tadpole.

Karlach is another one who hasn’t had autonomy for years, she couldn’t lead her own life. She took orders to fight in the blood war and before that took orders from Gortash, a man she looked up to, to protect him. She’s a soldier and a damned good one but she’s not the type to call the shots because she isn’t a planner - she can even get herself arrested trying to get to Gortash on her own. She’s the type to run headfirst into a fight with little thought - which is fine when you’re being told “go here and fight,” but is not sustainable to do all the time as your only plan, especially for how big and complex the journey in the game becomes.

And then you have the other companions - Halsin, Minthara, Jaheira, and Minsc. Mostly these guys are going to follow your lead because you’re already the leader.

Halsin is done being a leader and never wanted to lead anybody to begin with. And at first he’s not even there to help you with the tadpoles, he’s helping around in camp to travel with you since you have the same destination - so it’s safer for him to get there. If you help him lift the curse, he stays and helps in return. You are already the leader and again he’s done leading, but also you are the one to make the plans to help him while also hunting down your own cure. And if he’s coming with you to act 3 - your plans work.

Minthara I honestly am not sure I can speak much to her character but - your plan saved her. Her plan got her tortured and tadpoled. It is the pretty logical solution to let your rescuer lead in such a situation. You are her only safety, and if I remember correctly she doesn’t even think the others care for her at all - they just follow your lead.

Jaheira is honestly to me a weird one to have tag along but I can see the why. She is also a leader, but for her she can lead her people from a distance. The Harpers she’s leading are following orders and snooping around and they don’t need her personally there all the time even if they are constantly acting as one group - which I feel like they don’t for such a secretive thing, groups get noticed. Her Harpers are pretty much assumed to be a well-oiled machine - I don’t expect her to bring people she doesn’t trust into the shadow cursed lands, nor do I expect her to send people after Minsc that she can’t trust do the job without her either. So for her with the tadpoled group, it’s already got a leader, but it is also not entirely her fight to lead. You are leading the fight against the Absolute because you have the one thing that keeps the Absolute at bay, and she’s offering to join that fight directly. Not as an ally to the cause to work separately, but a direct member of the party working towards the defeat of the brain. She is a hero, after all.

Minsc is, well, Minsc. He follows Boo. He follows Jaheira. And he’s only alive because you lead the party to save him. Jaheira puts her trust in you and is following your lead, so Minsc is of course going to do the same.

People wonder how Tav became a leader so easily and let me tell you: after being in several projects, majority of people really do appoint leadership to the very first person who glances at the wheel of the ship. Most people want to be given a task and do the task. Anyway I'm just like Tav for real irl please demote me I beg I do not want to make decisions

[snowfolly]

General 1 - 3 and Story Specific 12 & 13 for Tali please :3

Thank you so much for the asks! I answered the first one in a previous post but here are the others (also I sent you an ask for this and think that it probably got eaten bc I had the worst signal on my trip, let me know if you didn’t get it!)

(And sorry for the novel I write so much for these 😅)

Do the other companions have special comments or reactions upon recruiting your Tav?

Honestly I think they would all be cautious of the weirdo that they just picked up (Tali would be rummaging through jars they found from the wreckage, keeping a brain jar without explaination). There’d be some ‘keep an eye on that one, they’re charming, yes, but something’s just not right about them…’ and yeah, they’d be right about that lol. I know that Astarion is fascinated by durge’s weird shit so I think he’d probably have something positive to say about Tali’s recruitment (even if it was a backhanded compliment lol)

Does your Tav have any comments or advice when you recruit other companions?:

Tali would be very much on the ‘the more the merrier (and potentially safer)’ side of things but saying this with narrowed eyes until they get to know the new companion better.

Is it possible for your Tav to be kidnapped and replaced by Orin?  How is Orin's deception revealed?  How do they react to the PC rescuing them in the Temple of Bhaal?:

YES…So I think this would be absolutely hilarious bc Tali would be incredibly over the top about being kidnapped.

Orin (disguised as Tali) would probably be doing something with a violin (possibly complaining about how all the strings were broken ominously speaking about how that ‘just wouldn’t do, the music has to be heard, the music of stabbing ppl calls out’ and more weird etc etcs. before slamming it against the wall and revealing themselves as Orin.

BUT Tali would definitely be losing their shit on the table during the rescue (I’m trying to remember if the one who is kidnapped is unconscious) but if not then they’d be yelling funny profanities the entire time as PC is fighting Orin, and be really shaken and very indignant (and grateful in a ‘took you long enough’ kind of way) upon rescue.

How do they react to the PC either allowing Astarion to ascend or convincing him to spare the 7000 spawn?:

Tali would be side eyeing the entire situation with horror and wary fascination at either outcome, they would definitely have some complex (disturbed and sad, despite themselves) feelings about all of the people that had to die for the ascension to happen (they are also freaked tf out by the treatment of the spawn/starved spawn in cages for countless years (as that triggers a great fear of loss of freedom)).

Tali would also notice the change in (an ascended) Astarion very quickly and they wouldn’t like it not one bit. They’d wary of his instant switch in demeanor as he’s not even close to being the same person anymore.

As for Astarion being convinced to stay a spawn (and release all the spawn into the wild) Tali would be relieved (despite themselves) but also slightly concerned by the fact that 7000 ravenous vampire spawn are being set loose to potentially wreak havoc upon the Underdark. But hey, at least they’re free now and able to walk their own path, right?

[michanvalentine]

"Some fans think Ascended Astarion is free from the curse of vampirism because he can walk in the sun and see his reflection and he isn’t hungry for blood, but he has just replaced all that for a far more sinister and consuming hunger. Vampires crave power the way they crave blood, insatiably and beyond their control."

Amen, sister.

Astarion himself says it in Act 1: vampires are paranoid, power-hungry monsters. The Ascended vampire is no exception. Astarion isn’t Cazador 2.0—at least not right away—and he’ll definitely use different methods to ensure his dominance and control. Personality matters, and it affects behavior. Astarion isn’t a sadist like Cazador, but he’s very good at manipulation and deceit, for instance. That doesn’t mean, however, that he doesn’t share the same goals as his former master and every other vampire lord. Different tools, same ambition.

Also, more than loss of soul, I’d talk about loss of humanity (even Cazador can be used to complete the ritual, so clearly he has a soul—lol). Astarion fully embraces his monstrous side and closes a door behind him: the door to equal, meaningful connection with the other living beings in the world. Tav/Durge can choose to become his spawn, and even if Astarion loves them (as much as a vampire can love), and even if he doesn’t use his power to control them, it still doesn’t make it a relationship of equality.

That it’s a cycle is pretty obvious—and, as Astarion himself says in Act 1, the worst enemy of a vampire is another vampire. Whether it’s another vampire lord or one of his own spawn, sooner or later the cycle will start again, and someone will try to overthrow him—just as Cazador was overthrown by Astarion, and Cazador himself once overthrew Vellioth.

And honestly—being a vampire, in general, sucks. It’s a curse. It should suck. Otherwise, it’d be called a blessing. And honestly, with or without the perks granted by Mephistopheles, I really don’t know if it’s worth sinking even deeper into that curse.

Some fans think Ascended Astarion is free from the curse of vampirism because he can walk in the sun and see his reflection and he isn’t hungry for blood, but he has just replaced all that for a far more sinister and consuming hunger. Vampires crave power the way they crave blood, insatiably and beyond their control. They are a metaphor for abusers, trapped in their futile struggle to feel fulfilled by harming and dominating others. That is part of their curse, the darkest and most isolating part. If we read Cazador’s thoughts, we find that he doesn’t identify with this monster he has become and deep down wants to just die. He is consumed by the curse of vampirism, everything from torturing his spawn to the ascension ritual were part of this vampiric hunger for power that made Cazador what he became. If Astarion ascends, that is what he will become.

He may not act exactly like Cazador but he has embraced the belief that to be safe is to be powerful at the expense of empathy and care for others, and with that it is inevitable his hunger for power will grow more and more sadistic consuming every good and tender part of Astarion just like it did to Cazador. Cazador was once a young Spawn who reached out to a friend and was impaled for a decade straight because of it. From Cazador’s perspective, he was a “loving”, “paternal” Master compared to Vellioth but that’s just the distorted mindset of the abuser. Just like every abusive parent thinks they aren’t abusive because their parent was “worse” to them. Cazador was different from Vellioth and Ascended Astarion would be different from Cazador but they’re the same beast. There’s no denying that the nature of vampirism and Master/Spawn relationships are abusive and the only way to free yourself from that cycle is to reject the poisonous allure of vampiric power.

Spawn Astarion cannot see his reflection or walk in the sun, at least not yet, but he can live and he can heal. He knows it’s safe to be loving and kind, that there’s more to the world than an endless cycle of power and pain which was all he experienced for 200 years as a slave to Cazador’s sick, undead mind. Spawn Astarion has won something Cazador never could, and that’s his soul back. Cazador died a power-hungry husk who didn’t recognize himself from the boy he once was with everyone he claimed to “love” relieved he was dead - Spawn Astarion won’t suffer that fate. Ascended Astarion is what happens if trauma wins - he’s the desensitization to violence after centuries of torture and cruelty, he’s the false facade of confidence and superiority shielding a weak sense of self, he’s the belief that the only way to not be a victim is to be the abuser. Spawn Astarion is bittersweet but hopeful and free to be himself, he is not consumed by what trauma and vampirism wants him to be. He is free to heal and find out who he is. That will take time, but it’s finally possible.

[bagel-boy-sama]

I adore your thoughts on his romance (acestarion ftw), but Id like to add something to the good boy part.

(edit: added a read more thing I forgor)

With Astarion I had a very similar experience you do (manipulation where) in my first playthrough. My Tav slept with him once, and then was set on the ultimate "I can fix him" path. There was literally no manipulation to be seen except the occasional prompts to be evil ("can we run a cult together pwease 👉👈" and such). I also thought it was really weird when, in the confession, he started talking about how he wants this to be real - and then was even more weirded out later post no ritual. Because again, this was never really a manipulation moment.

Then I did my Durge playthrough and realized that Acestarion's romance, and honestly just general story, is severely negatively impacted by not seeing very specific dialogue choices or seeing certain events.

A big one is the Drow in moonrise, who I never talked to in my first playthrough - and such the confession didn't start with that context. However, in Durge the confession started because of the Drow and at some point he said that he could have done what he usually did and fight through the momentary disgust. Then you can respond.

One of the responses is to ask if he did that with you, and he said of course. That he needed someone's protection, and you were his best bet. That he knew people wouldn't feel safe with a vampire (side note I got him telling me he was a vampire in the underdark before the celebration, but he didn't try to bite Tav yet).

This. This right here is the most definitive clearest example I saw of Astarion being genuinely manipulative, and being a user. Yet it's in a single dialogue choice (as far as I know) for an action that could be easily missed (as I did first time around).

Then, going off of that every single thing he did up until act 2/confession was under the same hope: to seduce someone for safety.

Spoilers for Durge ahead:

I also think that it's more Astarion and not the game saying these things. That it's him feeling like shit and not the game devs saying that he's a bad person for this. This is because of the Durge exclusive cutscene where you are encouraged to kill him. I'm not sure if it happens in the same place for everyone, but for me this happened before the confession and after the inn fight (in which I prevented the kidnapping and didn't kill her). Stupid Murder Gremlin Man stated that Astarion cared for Tav, trusted Tav, and shouldn't. I would say this was just the gremlin being manipulative if, after you wake him up and tell him you are about 5 seconds from killing him, he didn't proceed to help you. To tie you up and - if you pass the dice rolls about being thankful - comfort Tav and say you'd do the same.

I think this shows that, even pre confession and extremely early in act 2, Astarion has left the manipulation station and genuinely cares for Tav at this point even if he doesn't acknowledge it at this point. Thus, when he's beating himself up about lying in act 3 it's guilt and not Larian saying that he was actually doing that.

But yeah honestly: could have done without it. Good post /gen

My thoughts on the astarion romance (spoiler: they're not good)

Hoo boy going right from the wonderful bliss of karlach's romance to this.... dark mess of despair was a hell of a whiplash.

So I'm gonna assume if you clicked on that read more that you don't care about spoilers. If that's not true then dont read this. To be clear we're on the same page, astarion has two potential outcomes. You let him complete cazador's ritual and ascend to big boy vampire or you stop him from completing it.

The game made the choice to make a statement with the outcome of astarion's quest. If you don't break the cycle of abuse, then you're perpetuating it. Astarion after completing the ritual is much more cazador than himself. The romance takes this one step further, the only way to continue it if the ritual is completed is to willingly become astarion's spawn. The game implies in no uncertain terms that you will meet the same terrible fate he was so recently trapped in. Cazador's master tortured him. Cazador tortured astarion. One way or another Astarion will torture you.

He even has a line of dialogue after you reject him along the lines of "Of course I'm familiar with love. I would've tormented it out of you until you had nothing left if you'd let me." That's just the start. Just about every line to come out of a romanced evil astarion is stunningly toxic, he pretends to love you, threatens to leave you, all to get you to agree to become his spawn. You can even read his mind to find out he thinks you're degrading yourself by staying with him. It's stunningly dark, and part of me respects the writing for sticking so hard to their guns.

Speaking as a fan of roleplay focused games, this did take me off guard. I'm accustomed to games treating evil choices as options to explore your characters and develop a sense of gray morality. Because... it's a video game for fun and sometimes its fun to do silly pretend evil things and twirl my pretend evil mustache. But bg3 will occasionally treat evil choices as sins that the narrative will punish you for, sometimes immediately, sometimes later down the line. And astarion is undeniably one of these choices. A non romanced evil astarion is fine, i guess. but i know i'm not the only one out there who fell into the trap of thinking astarion could be the other half of my evil power couple.

I don't think this is necessarily inherently bad on its own. It severely reduces any desire I have to ever play an evil character again in this game, which sucks because I love minthara. HOWEVER

I got a bone to pick with the good boy astarion romance too.

So of course after the gut punch of evil astarion romance, I reloaded and made him the same good boy i did on my first play through. The subsequent romance scene is nice, and he gets the same beautiful heart-wrenching catharsis that made me sure he was the one I wanted to romance second in the first place.

But throughout all the later conversations, he keeps returning to this idea that he "seduced" my tav. ??? Where. From where I was standing, act 1 he propositions me for casual sex, my tav says yes. Afterwards he proposes continuing to have casual sex, my tav says yes.

And yet he keeps saying these words "I seduced you, manipulated you, used you." And the fact that he's admitting it is meant to show character growth.

But why is the game so determined to make my tav his victim??? Why are those my only two options? The dialogue choices didn't give me a way to say "you didn't manipulate me, I chose to be with you of my own free will, knowing what you are." There's nothing i can do to flip this narrative that my character was used and wronged, even though i dont believe she was. And that left the romance feeling very polarized, like there are only two lenses with which to view romancing astarion.

You are either his victim that he lies to for a grand majority of the game. he doesn't even like by his own admission, he claims he used you for protection. But he grows to appreciate all you did for him and even love you.

Or his helpless thrall, equal parts a victim but hell at least at that point you're embracing the kink of the whole thing.

Tbh, neither of those really do it for me.

In conclusion, astarion is an amazing character, I'm never romancing him again, and finally,

that is all