#how far are they going to go with nero and sporus

[turtlesallthewaytomgreg]

tomgreg dependent on stress not tomshiv

okay so lil headcannon theory: thinking about how the idea that 'tomgreg only works when tom has someone to take his shiv-related aggression out on' doesn't seem to fully capture their relationship. tom being willing to go to prison for greg, greg not leaking whatever was in the logistics folder, tom taking the fall for boar on the floor, etc. etc.

i'm wondering if their relationship materializes, less out of tom's relationship to shiv and more out of tom and greg's relationship to environmental stressors. when everything's 'good,' their interactions are pretty surface level and or minimal, right? i mean, no reason to scheme, black mail, throw water bottles if there aren't any active shooters, corporate scandals, congressional hearings, etc. etc. but when things are bad? they pull together like magnets. they're the only two who really get what its like to be in that state of being the 'first to go' in the event of a huge stressor/threat to waystar as 'non roy' members of the roy family.

it's well documented that heightened levels of emotional arousal under stressful situations--which involves releasing adrenal into the body--increases the romantic attraction between two individuals. this certainly makes sense in the context of tom and greg's homoerotic build-up in s2/s3. the cruises scandal and threat of going to prison hit their stress response systems like a fucking bullet train (no pun intended). greg's getting a haircut even though he didn't need one because it felt 'soothing,' and the clear, physical and verbal manifestations of anxiety pre- and post- appearing before congress. not to mention tom constantly bringing up the prison blogs with his big sad eyes, months of fear and worry and dysregulation and expectation leading up to the culminating moment of emotional release: learning that he wouldn't be going to prison, waltzing into greg's office, flipping his desk over, beating his chest on top of the filing cabinets, pulling greg into a post-adrenal-fueled haze of a forehead kiss, etc.

s3 already established that tom goes to greg at the height of his emotional dysregulation, and s4 continues to confirm it. logan suddenly and unexpectedly dying? an extremely traumatic/emotional stressor, and tom responds by calling greg? solidifying him not only tom's number one confidant but the person he goes to first when his adrenaline's spiked by stress.

in the first couple of episodes, they didn't have a whole lot of reason to be stressed. they're at logan's birthday party, tom's getting a divorce, pretty standard family dysfunction. but what do we have here, episode three and four? now their sole protector is dead and the new guy, mattson has apparently no qualms about a total and immediate corporate restructure. sure, tom and greg aren't on the kill list for now, but what's actually standing in between them and a total loss of control? i don't know about you but the slow build up of uncertainty/stress within the plot across 4.01-4.04 seems like some pretty solid grounds for some late season romantic ~bonding!~ if you ask me :)

[tomgrcg]

we've learnt for a fact now that tom feels the full range of human emotions towards greg and that he can't let anyone in or he'll die. so how does he express his emotions? the only way he can let himself. he wants to be a specific kind of person, a roy, and how he is feeling and what he wants to do does not fit in with how these people behave. he doesn’t do it because it’s natural. he does it because he has to. he throws insults at it and tries to wrestle it to the ground but it feels weak because his heart isn’t in it.

neither greg or tom are like the roys at their core. they weren’t raised in it. there are moments of real happiness for the two of them when they’re alone and can just be themselves. there's something different in their relationship dynamic here than the relationships the siblings have. it doesn’t feel as bittersweet because they aren’t as fundamentally broken.

tom is more guarded, of course, he’s received some emotional damage from shiv so he always says or does something to keep greg just far enough away. he’s learnt vulnerability is dangerous. every time he tries to show shiv that he loves her she makes him feel like he’s done it wrong. this season he started behaving in a way that would get through to her but that didn’t feel good to him either, didn’t save him from being fired, nothing.

shiv needed the kind of love tom gave her the same way tom needs what greg gives him. but the difference is tom is more capable of accepting love from people he cares about and wouldn’t hurt greg any deeper than a weak insult, even if he could.

tom knows what it’s like to have to beg for someone who is supposed to care about you to do something for you, so when greg asked if he could possibly save him from going to jail he says load me up without a second thought. he cares about greg’s feelings and would sacrifice something of his own for them and it’s this empathy that tom has that the roy family is lacking.

it’s not hard for tom to think to do something for another person for no reason other than it would make that person feel good. no quid pro quo. but even when tom does do something good for greg he 'can’t stand the good feeling he’s engendered' because he feels like he shouldn’t be doing nice things for no reason.

the nero and sporus scene was tom telling greg he cares about him at all and “come with me, sporus?” was the marriage proposal. greg asks what’s in it for him because that’s how greg works and tom has to say “who has ever looked out for you” instead of “i want you with me”. tom cannot let him know the depth of how he feels so he lets greg think he's using him for something and only merely tolerates him, like everyone else does.

and then, because greg still doesn’t get it, or is choosing to ignore it, tom has to yell “not samson! i want you gregging for me!" he still can’t say the real reason why. the only time he’s shown his real emotions to greg is when he’s alone in a room and greg can’t see his face through the phone.

it's not a perfect relationship. it's not supposed to be. that's why it's so compelling. it’s please don't be better than me i can't stand it but i love you. it’s i’m using you to get somewhere in the world but i’ll still look after you even when i don’t need to anymore. (villainfvcker made a great post about this.)

i’m writing this after episode eight, and if they’re going all the way with greg’s transformation into a roy family member and he betrays tom in some way, it will be another case of a succession character destroying the only real connection they have for some kind of power, and regretting it later.

if anything at all, we know tom really does love greg, and that’s a satisfying enough tomgreg endgame for me, personally.

[tomwambsgans]

hello! I agree with a lot of your takes re: Tom/Greg and am quite sincerely baffled by how many of the big 'intellectual' Succession blogs are comfortable dismissing them as a joke unworthy of insight or analysis. one of the weirdest trends I've seen is 'Tom/Greg would be nothing without Tom/Shiv' because it's like... of course a storyline about what's essentially an affair relies on the marriage it's destroying; of course the relationships on the show all feed into each other vitally. I wouldn't even say I 'ship' T/G or have a deep personal investment in it, but I think understanding it as textually real and substantial is essential to any reading of the show as a whole. I love Tom's relationship arc with Shiv; I find it chilling and heartbreaking and fantastic (and I have equal sympathy for her), but saying that every scene he has with Greg is just about Shiv is such a ludicrously ignorant dismissal coming from people who purport to be invested in, like, serious dramaturgical analysis. Tom being closeted is important; Tom sincerely (and sometimes truly selflessly) loving Greg on a show about egomaniacs forever betraying each other is important. it's almost hilariously ironic to see 'serious' bloggers waving it all away.

this isn't to say that the vast majority of those interested in T/G don't also get them completely wrong – once people are actually confronted with a 'canon gay pairing' that doesn't conform to shipping conventions they don't know what to do with it. it's just tiring that the two extremes seem to be 'total, smug disregard' and 'pointlessly unfaithful misrepresentation'.

but anyway: I like your blog! keep doing what you're doing.

hi wow okay i love this message first of all

and tbqh that Intellectual Dismissal of tomgreg? homophobia. it's homophobia. whether internalized or otherwise that's genuinely what it is lol. like at absolute best it's ppl who've been convinced that it's dumb or immature to be passionate and sincere about two men loving each other and that that's never gonna be the "correct" reaction about a piece of media or something.

and yeah no "tomgreg only exists bc of tomshiv" is a take that makes me want to rip my hair out any time i catch so much of a whiff of it. as something to dismiss tg first of all it's dumb as fuck bc like.. okay? and YOU only exist bc your dad managed to say some offhanded thing to your mom one day that made her decide they were gonna fuck or vice versa. everything in the world "only" happened because something else happened first. and then as an actual analysis of tg it's still wrong and falls apart so easily with so many of the big tg moments in mind. like nero and sporus? I'm gonna push my wife down the stairs and marry you? I'm literally going to end my marriage and be with you instead? and honestly you don't even have to go far that into the show, I'd argue that the ortolan dinner and the connection that tom literally spells out there is very clearly independent of shiv. there's parallels but tom isn't consciously thinking "shiv is out cheating on me so i'll also (emotionally) cheat on her".. obviously lol. Tom and greg simply connect as two human beings more than basically any other pair in the show do and the actual ""reliance"" that their relationship has on shiv boils down, I would say, to simply how tom's unhappiness with shiv pushes him to pursue what he wants. otherwise yeah tomshiv influences certain aspects of the tg dynamic but I guess a lot of ppl don't realize that that's not the same thing as being "reliant" lmao

[starkjoy]

it’s insane how disappointed i am with this season… like i don’t even know how to deal w this lmao. i just feel like i’m being gaslit into believing all the stuff i previously thought about tomshiv’s dynamic and even tomgreg’s (in terms of the nero/sporus subtext) isn’t true. it’s a weird decision on the writers’ parts.

the whiplash is so odd to me that i can’t help but wonder if they’re intentionally misleading us for some late-in-the-game twist. that’s probably delusion though—simplest explanation is that they changed their mind or it’s shitty writing. seems to be a trend with hbo final seasons. let’s see how it all ends before we make any final decisions, though.

unlike failed internet darling mlm ships of the past, tomgreg isn’t a case of fandom creating a narrative and setting themselves up for disappointment—the writers intentionally implanted homoeroticism into their plotline. the actors knowingly played around with it. jesse literally called them homoerotic a few weeks ago. it’s really sad to think succession may fall prey to every other queerbait-adjacent (adjacent for now since the season isn’t over) curse, leaning into the queer undertones until they’ve written themselves into a gay corner with the internet convinced something is gonna happen, only to backtrack and pretend the vibes were never there at all. it’s too early to say if that’s the case here, but it certainly feels that way at the moment. i mean, what else are we supposed to think when the writers go from nero and sporus gay marriage as the through line of season 3, to disgusting brothers hetero sex tour comedic relief background noise with tomshiv redemption front end center? am I supposed to be enjoying this?

all that being said, on a positive note im glad we’ve seen how much closer tom and greg have gotten as partners, and that they’re scheming together and on the same page. i’m glad they’ve had at least one interaction each episode. i’m glad greg seems much more into tom than previous seasons, quelling any unrequited friendship accusations. i’m glad we got insane homoerotic undertones in episode 1, even if they’ve dropped off since then. but where we’re sadly lacking is depth—what was once the hallmark of tomgreg’s deeper connection in contrast to tomshiv’s emotional constipation. now greg makes sexual quips while tom rolls his eyes…end scene. and again. it was funny and cute at first, but now it’s getting boring. don’t they deserve a more interesting arc in the final season after years of build up? why are we subject to tomshiv rehashing the same shit we’ve seen for 3 seasons instead?

also, one of the most compelling arcs of season 3 was tom’s vengeance, especially because we saw it play out from his perspective. outside of his plane convo with greg, tom’s pov has all but been erased. even the tomshiv moments are from the lens of shiv’s experience. and as much as we may sympathize with shiv’s heartbreak over his betrayal and her dad’s death, it feels almost wrong that the show is trying to make me feel bad for her? we saw how awful she was to tom for three seasons, we saw from tom’s perspective how much she hurt him. i don’t feel bad for shiv on the tom front at all, the fact that she kept his baby feels wildly out of character, and frankly it’s a little insulting the amount of time the final season is spending trying to convince the audience otherwise.

hey, maybe my feelings will change in a few days. maybe the final episodes will change all of our minds. i’ll always have some hope for tomgreg, but right now it’s not looking promising given the treatment they’ve received so far. anyone with any positivity to share hit me up because I could use it!!

[gregoftom]

Re: Greg knowing Tom is into him,,

What if he's a little bit more of a slimeball. What if at first Greg isn't interested in Tom in the same way. (The razzing annoys him and Tom is so volatile and confusing, and sure he's good looking enough but the whole situation is far too complicated for it to matter. Hell, maybe at this point Greg actually believes he's straight, at most slightly bi-curious.)

Greg is sly and watchful and smart and he sees how Tom's marriage is fracturing, he sees how much Tom likes him and how Tom's gaze lingers on him sometimes... and Greg decides, you know what, fuck it. If flirting with his boss a little bit will keep him in his good books, that's worthwhile enough. If tying Tom to him will make his place in the company more secure, sure he can tuck his hair behind his ear and smile coyly. If going on little dates with Tom and exchanging subtle looks and lingering touches gets the man to buy him expensive gifts, then Greg is happy to do all that.

And maybe seeing how sad Tom is and how much spending time with Greg means to him makes Greg feel guilty because it's just a big lie, but he doesn't know how to stop. They party together and scheme and hang out all the time, and gradually Tom starts introducing kisses to their routine, first only when they're blackout drunk, and then later even when they're just hanging out watching movies,, and it's slowly killing Greg. On one hand it feel so good, Tom is a good kisser and Greg loves being wanted and cherished - but he knows it's all built on a lie. Tom looks so happy and honestly astonished after every kiss, barely believing that Greg wants this too - and Greg has to wipe that look off his face with more kisses because if he has to look at all that love for a second longer he'll break

And then Tom becomes CEO and his divorce is finally finalized and he takes Greg out for a celebratory dinner. Holds his hand at the table and pays for his food like always, calls him "my Sporus" and breaks out in the most beautiul joyous grin when Greg squeezes his hand and calls him Nero

They go home tipsy and trading kisses, and for the first time they end up in the bedroom. Tom lays Greg out and strips him so gently and kisses his chest and stomach, lube and condoms ready, and he softly asks if Greg is sure -

And that's when it happens. Greg's vision goes blurry and then the tears stream down his cheeks and he can't, he can't - and Tom is instantly back up with him, cradling his cheeks and worriedly looking in his eyes

"Sweetheart, we don't have to tonight, or ever", Tom tries to reassure him, "Don't ever think you have to do something you don't want, honey I never want to hurt you"

And Greg just sobs harder, pulls Tom into a tight hug, wailing that he doesn't deserve Tom and that it's all wrong

Tom has no idea what's going on but he holds Greg through it, petting his back and kissing hi forehead until he calms down a little

"How can you think that?" Tom asks after a while, "how do you not deserve me? If anything it's the other way around, you idiot! I'm the grouchy old divorcee here!"

And Greg shakes his head

"Remember when we first met? When you asked me if I'd kiss you if you told me to?"

Tom cringes at himself a little but nods. "Why?"

"Because", Greg says in a broken voice, "you know what I thought? I thought... 'ohh, maybe that's an angle. Older guy, influential, clearly in the closet - I could use that."

It's at this point Tom lets go of him and backs away a little, something breaking in his eyes

Greg swallows hard and keeps going

"I'm a fucking snake, Tom, a parasite like everyone says - I never meant for it to go anywhere, I never meant for you to get hurt but. But."

"What are you saying? It's all been fake all this time? You've secretly, what, you've been laughing at me behind my back this whole time?" Greg could understand anger, screaming and throwing things, but Tom is frighteingly calm instead

He's calm and he's _wrong_ and Greg is fucking this up, and he has to try and explain -

"No, Tommy, I haven't been! It was fake at first, I liked you but I was also thinking about my position - but lately I just. I like it so much now, I don't know when it happened exactly but I. It's real for me too now, maybe I could've just kept pretending like this whole mess didn't exist but I couldn't let you think I'm good anymore, because I'm not."

Tom is sitting up now, head in his hands, shaking. "What the fuck, Greg, what am I supposed to do with this? I'm just like every other pathetic rich asshole who gets fooled by a pretty young thing huh? What am I supposed to-" he can't even finish the sentence because his voice breaks. "Here I thought you actually fucking liked me? That for once someone actually did?"

Greg's crying again but he determinedly pulls Tom up to meet his gaze.

"There's nothing pathetic about you, I swear, you're one of my favourite people in the whole world. I'm... I'm horrible for doing what I did but it was... me going after what I want, whatever it takes. Only along the way it changed, you're not some step anymore, you're the goal, you're the finish line so to speak? If you can... if there's a world in which you might be able to forgive me then I want to try. If there's any way that I can prove that I...."

He can't continue because they've never actually said it before, but Tom demands it. "Prove what, Greg? That you're a shameless fucking thigh climber? That there's nothing you won't do for a, a bigger paycheck? What the fuck is there left to prove?"

But he's not leaving, he's letting Greg take his hands - and maybe it's wishful thinking on Greg's part but maybe there's a hint of hope in his eyes?

"Yeah, I am all that and I can't deny any of it but - what I want to prove is that I love you."

Greg says it with conviction, trying to put everything into the words.

Tom draws in a sharp breath and his eyes go wide - it used to be that he'd initiate the kisses, the handholding - used to be he'd be the first one to escalate things - but now Greg's charging ahead. And despite everything that's happened the words still fill Tom with happiness

"Please let me show you", Greg begs softly. "It may have been fake at first but it isn't anymore. I've never felt like this about anyone before, that's why it took so long for me to realize I was actually falling in love with you. And I'm so sorry I was such a monster about this all -"

And despite everything, Tom laughs.

"Back up a little bit, Gregory, you fucking snake. You what?"

"I love you. I love you!"

"What?" Tom pretends he's not getting it, but there's a little grin showing through his tears.

"I love you, Tom Wambsgans, with every inch of my horrible liar being. I swear."

And Tom heaves a great exhausted sigh and pulls Greg into a hug. Greg sobs and clings to him like a koala.

"I won't say it back", Tom grumbles, and Greg laughs wetly.

"Fair enough. I don't deserve it, I don't think - but maybe I can work for it?"

Tom nods and buries his face in Greg's neck. "Never lie to me again.

"I won't", Greg promises. "Thank you", he whispers, and, "I love you. I'll say it everyday until you believe it's the truth."

"See that you do", Tom says, cunty, and Greg loves him so much. He says that out loud, and kisses Tom's cheeks and forehead, so many times, until he teases a little laugh out of Tom.

They go to sleep like that, holding each other tightly. Greg keeps his promise and tells Tom every day, and shows it too with kisses and gestures and gifts. Eventually they'll be okay again - and eventually Tom trusts him enough to say it back.

anyway sorry for this mile long ask i made myself emotional and now i'm crying at a cafe :')

UUUUUUUNNNHHHGGGH ANOOOON i die i fully die this is like. so muchhhh poor tommyyyy but oughhhhhn the dialogueee tom forgiving greg anyway in the end because He Would ojhhghjnnhf plssss do a full proper fic bc hhhhf. i Also cried ty for my life oof ouch ouch

[endgameinthenorth]

My thoughts on tomgreg so far this season, to lighten the doom and gloom around here:

- Greg was shown to be very attached to Tom in episode one meanwhile Tom was crazy jealous of Bridget. It appeared Greg did not "rummage to fruition" but needing to tell Tom about it may have been the end goal to start with. This was a big change from their typical behavior prior to the time jump and sets the stage for upcoming interactions where they may springboard off this dynamic.

- Greg didn't betray Tom to Kerry and followed through on the request in what felt like a "damn I got it bad for that guy, doing whatever he says" vibe.

- Tom has confided in Greg and been genuinely vulnerable when he has not with anyone else, secluding himself in an intimate bedroom setting to make the call. He apologized for how he was speaking to Greg as well. Emotional progress.

- Comedic moments are not funny imo, but it does highlight that Tom can still be himself around Greg and Greg alone.

- Casually showing Tom and Greg arriving together in episode 4 brings up so many questions when we last saw Tom getting in a car with Shiv yesterday. Like usual, a lot is happening off screen between these two.

Do I wish we had more intimate moments after Logan's death? Absolutely. However the direct following episode takes place at a single location for a gathering and doesn't lend to emotional breakdowns. It's true Ken and Stewy had their moment but it was a moment that had to happen right then due to the circumstances, whereas something between Tom and Greg can wait.

Further speculation on what's to come:

- There's still 6 hours to go, and an art gallery. 🤞

- Shiv falling down the stairs gives me strong feelings that the Nero and Sporus metaphor is still going strong. Tom will marry/castrate Greg and watch or even instigate Rome (the company) burning to the ground.

- The "soundless sex" scene is yet to be seen. Who could this be? If it's between characters we've already seen being intimate it doesn't really advance any ending plot imo. I do have high hopes on this being Tom and Greg or something with Roman.

- We need to see more on why "The Disgusting Brothers" was put into play at all (I do not think this is just to say they're two sleezy single guys now), and I also do not think Logan mentioning Greg's gay father was for nothing. I want the question put to Greg for why he's still with Tom when Logan's gone and Tom has nothing to offer.

There's still time for that, it's just that with every episode being one day you're not getting the highlights over several months on display like we did between them previously. The big life-changing moments often do play out over short periods of time so not getting several months per season may actually be beneficial to see the start of their relationship unfold.

[hugh-lauries-bald-spot]

tv show/movie ask meme: Succession!

favorite male character:

Greg, because I feel like he's already just such a weird dude but he's got sooo much potential going into season 4 to be even weirder and worse (/pos)

favorite female character:

❤️💞🥰💖 Gerri ❤️💞🥰💖, because well you see MILFS,, and hotness aside she's just so sarcastic and like deadpan and funny but also just so ruthlessly professional ("how does it serve my interests")

least favorite character:

Logan's already basically a free space so I'm gonna go with Karl Muller he's just annoying to me and I dislike when he comes onscreen for some reason,,,

prettiest character:

❤️💞🥰💖 Gerri ❤️💞🥰💖

do I really need to explain myself further?

(gif credit as far as I know goes to @gerrikillallmen if that's incorrect please tell me-)

funniest character:

Ooh this is tough cause I wanna say Tom cause he's strange and insane and pathetically in love, but then again Roman cause he's strange and insane and pathetically in love, but then again Greg cause he's s-

favorite season:

Season 3 because all the storylines are just culminating to and end and it's so fascinating to see how it happens, all of the dynamics are at their peak, theres the surface conflicts and the underlying conflicts that attack you when you least expect it, the betrayal, the love it's all just so tragic (and COOL)

favorite episode:

Safe Room (2x04) : because its silly and weird and the tomgreg is insane, but also the Roman storyline is hilarious and if I'm not mistaken he calls Gerri "mommy" in this episode which is always appreciated

favorite romantic ship:

Tomgreg (I'm so sorry romangerri) because it's just so Roman (not as in the country itself as it is today, I've never been to Rome) but as in just look at the series of events (SPOILERS AHEAD):

-> man proposes to beautiful wife with a lot of power

-> he meets his girlfriend's cousin

-> he later proposes to his girlfriend

-> his wife is seeing other men

-> the cousin tries to warn him, he won't hear it

-> his wife admits to this after their wedding night

-> while she sees other people he is allegedly allowed to do the same thing but she intervenes not so subtly when he has the chance

-> their love languages grow more and more incompatible

-> he and the his wife's cousin form a weird bond (likened by the man to that of Nero and Sporus, wherein Nero killed his wife and married Sporus, the man says "I would castrate you and marry you in a heartbeat", meaning he would need to kill his wife first, which uh-)

-> the man eventually becomes loyal more-so to his wife's cousin than to his wife and betrays her to leverage himself and his assistant to a higher position

favorite family ship:

I love the dynamic between Shiv and Roman they're just So Siblings and I love when they gang up on Ken it's peak comedy.

favorite friend ship:

I know they were together but like Roman and Tabitha were great and I thought their relationship was more "best buds-y" (not that sex is a requirement for a romantic relationship) they just gave of more platonic romance than anything else and I thought it was sweet and funny for them

worst ship:

I don't know if this is real or not but I've seen some hints that some people ship Ken x Greg but they're related so that's a BIG no for me. I'm also not crazy about Tom x Roman or Tom x Ken but that's just personal preference I don't have beef with those ships themselves and anyone who does like them do your thing go off be free.

Sorry this is so long 😬

[gregmarriage]

following this whole tomgreg “shit happens with them at weddings” thing i’ve devised in my head and like tomshiv’s wedding was kinda low-key tomgreg. greg was the one to tell tom about shiv and nate. the yelling and fighting in the snow. kinda small, but still.

next is caroline’s wedding, and obviously that’s a big one. tom’s betrayal. fulfilling the nero/sporus roles, at least as far as tom pushing shiv down the stairs. the whole “will you make a deal with the devil?”conversation.

the next wedding is connor and willa’s and honestly the way things are going and how big shit goes down at weddings, both for tomgreg and in general, i feel like that wedding is gonna be fuckin wild. i’m absolutely manifesting a tomgreg kiss at the wedding. tomshiv are mostly separated at this point in my head. but anyways, said kiss sets them on the path of the other half of nero/sporus. the castrating and marrying part. albeit, metaphorically, but either way the wedding is gonna change something between them, i can feel it. roy weddings are where big shit goes down and i’m equal parts excited and terrified

[wambsgraham-archive]

It looks like Tom’s path as a modern day emperor Nero is following along pretty closely to the specific version of the story that he told Greg in 3x4, so I thought it’d be fun to see how much of the parallel has been settled already, and how much might be left for season 4.

So far, this is what we’ve got:

Nero pushed his wife down the stairs: (Tom betraying Shiv’s plan to Logan, obviously)

Then he had Sporus castrated: (I think this is Tom knocking Greg down a peg with regards to making a fool of himself before congress and being looked after by him)

And he married him instead: (The deal with the devil)

And he gave him a ring:

And he made him dress up like his dead wife: (Could be the already ongoing trend of Tom using Greg as a replacement for his relationship with Shiv, or could be something specific in season 4)

So all that is to say, I’m pretty sure that sometime in the first few episodes of season 4, Tom is either gonna find some excuse to just straight up give Greg a ring, or if they want to go a little more abstract with it, he’ll finally buy him a goddamn fancy watch

[turtleneck-wambsgans]

hello, and welcome back to me overanalysing every moment from every tomgreg scene

i cannot stop thinking about the diner scene. it’s a possible contender for my favourite tomgreg scene tbh.

and what’s killing me today is how greg offers to pay for the meal, after tom has accepted greg’s “bauble of corporate wrongdoing” with no fight at all. and the AUDACITY tom has to REFUSE him ??? 

and NOT for the reason he usually would use (something like ‘greg is not rich and I Am Rich and that’s a power play’) - he does it because “greenpeace stole (greg’s) inheritance”.

that’s not a show of power or superiority. that’s him truly considering greg’s situation and responding in kind. it’s a small thing, but he’s openly doing something with the hopes that it makes greg’s life easier.

and that’s AFTER greg essentially asks tom to keep him out of prison. tom still wants to do things to make greg’s life easier. it’s not just ‘oh i’m already going, so i might as well be a martyr’; all of the choices tom makes in this scene (and in various other s3 scenes) shows how he’s using the situation he’s in to protect greg.

sure, he’s struggling with the shifting power dynamic (see: the prelude to the nero & sporus scene where he tries to strategise for greg, but greg has it all figured out). he could respond to it by going insane and lashing out at greg (and he did - eg: “let’s fight like chickens”). 

but in a lot of scenes, and especially the diner scene, he’s gentle with greg. yes, he’s given up, but on himself. he’s given up the ‘tough guy’ act, where he has to be On All The Time. when he’s stripped of that pride, his intentions become very clear; he just wants to make sure greg is okay.

we know that, in what is possibly the worst situation of tom’s life, he strives to keep greg safe. 

ok thank you for reading all of that. your reward below the line is a select few of my favourite moments in the scene: 

(here’s tom realising how far he would go for greg, and how easy it was for him to make the choice)

(here’s greg registering how easily tom accepted his insane proposal)

(here’s tom looking as though he has a Normal Amount of fondness for greg, the man who has just asked him to go to prison for him. it’s a pretty good face.)

(here’s greg realising the extent to which tom would go to protect him. it’s also a pretty good face, honestly)

[your-ace-cousin-clover]

What was your foreshadowing theory?

So yeah,, I was gonna make a proper post about this, but u know I'm gonna explain it here as a timeline.

So here's how it goes -

TINHAT ALERT. THIS IS JUST A THEORY. I'M JUST HAVING FUN.

1. Succession Season 2 finishes airing. The publicity is your general stuff, nothing very much about explicitly shipping them. But calling it a bromance / toxic relationship, etc.

2. Round Table Interview with the Cast. S3 has not started shooting. Only Brain Cox knows about the entire storyline of the season. Matt talks about how Tom loves Shiv and pauses for a moment before saying Shiv. This leads to Nick making a joke about Tom loving Greg.

Brain clearly says "Think about S3. Think in S3!" while the cast is cracking up about it.

3. S3 finishes shooting. Now, the entire cast knows about the storyline. Matthew suddenly more vocal (he's always advocated about Tomgreg since S2? even S1) But now literally, the frequency of him mentioning Tomgreg in an explicitly romantic context goes higher. Even going as far as to compare Tomshiv on par as Tomgreg.

4. HBO Marketing??? Need I say more? The posters. The stills with Matt and Nick next to each other. The individual / duo posters. The Nero Sporus thingy (with Tom explicitly invoking it). The Matt and Nick Q & A. The Tomgreg vid that HBO dropped.

They did the same poster thing for Roman and Gerri (literally the same pose in the photos). And before u tell me about ship marketing,, it is obvious they know about Kenstew (the trailer promos) yet, they haven't heavily invested in it for some reason? While Tomgreg is more heavily promoted so it isn't just targeting shippers.

(Also shout out to Kenstews, and Romangerris and Tomshivs, love u)

5. The reviews???? "Tomgreg is the emotional core of the show", "Tomgreg shippers won't be starved", etc etc. I also made a compilation of all mentions of Tomgreg in the reviews, naff said.

6. Also again, Matt Mac. 👀

"Lot of things down the road for both Tom and Greg and Tom and Shiv" 👀

So essentially, I feel like they're trying to foreshadow tomgreg instead of springing it up on us. Why? Idk. But the increased mentions of romantic Tomgreg have me on edge.

Let me know if I missed something y'all.

[georgeromerosanalcavity]

Tomgreg Nero and Sporus speculations/possible spoilers below

I’ve been thinking about how Tom’s hyper fixation and projection of Nero and Sporus might be foreshadowing how he and Greg might end up but not in any happy way.

Apologies for any inaccuracies, I’m going off what first information I have (wikipedia) and am giving my first reactions to it so please do not take this as gospel or expert account lol

Reading more about Nero and Sporus, most accounts say that Nero kills himself before he could be taken for execution, and had confided and lamented to Sporus, and not his current wife, in his final moments. And only a year later does Sporus follow suit, after marrying Otho, Poppaea’s husband before Nero, killing himself before Nero’s rival, Vitellius, would attempt to take him to recreate the R@pe of Proserpina.

Now, I think it’s safe to say that Tom has an infatuation with Greg. Not only that but a romantic, traditional guy like him probably finds some whimsy and magic in two lovers committing suicide, refusing to give over their power willingly, refusing to give their bodies willingly to anyone but each other. But there’s only so much you can assume from history and only so many times a person can be that predictable.

It’s apparent that Tom sees these parallels between he and Greg but how far does it go for Greg himself? At the end of the road, will we see Tom cut himself off before the Roys can destroy him himself? I think that’s a likely story, him becoming a whistleblower, as close to that parallel I can think of, in his last moments, even as he is currently aligning himself to Logan. But while I think that’s all possible, again, how possible is that for Greg? Tom certainly seems to believe that if he metaphorically kills himself that Greg will follow suit but Greg is somewhat unpredictable to Tom, and is very self serving. I don’t doubt Greg even likes Tom, as they are pretty much the only people there for one another in the Roy family. I don’t doubt Greg does view Tom as his best friend, even if it’s just because Greg has been so alone up until now that Tom is as close to someone who cares for him that he will ever get. So I see two things possibly happening:

Tom “kills himself” and Greg follows suit but not before committing to another person, still pursuing power long after his “husband” is dead and gone.

Tom “kills himself” and expects Greg to do the same, only to come to a harsh reality wherein his romantic ideals are nothing but in his head, and Greg continues without a thought for Tom.

Either way it is a harsh wakeup to the reality of their dog eat dog world and that even someone who claims humanity and benevolence like Greg is not immune to it. That Tom’s view of his relationship with Greg is in no way healthy or romantic, that it is yet another story of power corrupting absolutely and leaving little to no crumbs of true love. No matter what, even if the writers do not follow this, I can see Greg leaving Tom behind in some capacity, proving his greed and cowardice over his loyalty and compassion, even for someone as vindictive and cowardly as Tom.

[sigurdjarlson]

DO you think it's possible that the writers set out to create a ship from the beginning. Like, they have to be aware of shipping as a phenomenon, and it was only a matter of time... Or maybe it was just Mattmac and Nbraun

I’m not sure if they were originally expecting things to go in this direction or for the fans to react like they have but I do think the homoerotic subtext has always been somewhat intentional.

Just the way some scenes are framed and even the dialogue from early on “are you trying to seduce me Tom?” “Yes I am, Greg.”

Mattmac and Nic Braun have absolutely added layers to these interactions that I’m not sure we’re originally going to be there.

Although it’s worth noting the writers did write the Nero and Sporus dialogue. So they definitely know what they’re doing. .

They definitely notice now and are playing into it. The question is how far are they going to go with it?

[lilacsociety]

I agree. We think we've seen manipulative Tom but I think the worst is yet to come, and we might hate him by the time S4 ends. I'm delighted though I love a mess.

Let me just say — I’m so happy I’m getting succession asks because I adore this absolutely insane show

Honestly, part of succession’s appeal is that in a sense nobody is a run of the mill “good person”, but I think Tom’s supposed manipulation (at the end of season 3) comes from a place of logical self-preservation and being fed up with the way his wife and her family treat him as cannon fodder. I remember seeing a post where someone said that while Shiv has done some negligible things in the past with regard to Tom, she would never do something to him on this scale. I honestly think nothing could be further from the truth and Tom knows that. She has always leveraged his feelings for her and his acquiescence to the family’s whims as a way to further her own interests. She was one of the people who threw him under the bus for the cruises scandal and callously disregarded his anxieties about going to prison for it. The fact that she hasn’t taken the opportunity to ruin his life is only because he’s been so obedient (and even then she’s done a lot of wrong by him).

All this to say, I would hardly call this 4d chess as far as manipulation goes and the show did a really masterful job of showing how these feelings culminate in this final act of Tom saving himself. His siding with Logan was also foreshadowed in the DC episode when he tells Kendall that he’s never seen Logan get fucked when it came to attempted coups within the company. After all, when it was revealed that nobody would be going to prison for the scandal, Logan said he would remember Tom’s sacrifice. But when Shiv calls Tom about the siblings’ attempted takeover she brushes off his concerns about where he’d end up in the end, expressing that she once again doesn’t care where she ends up as long as he protects her interests. So yeah, in the end I completely understand where he’s coming from, blah blah the succession writers are brilliant etc. etc. pushing wife down the stairs blah blah blah.

SO, that was the scenic route to your comment about s4. In terms of his capacity for cruelty and the worst being yet to come I agree with you SOMEWHAT. I wrote a couple paragraphs prefacing this because I wanted to express how manipulation and backstabbing are not core aspects of Tom’s character. In a way, you can rationalize his actions as a response to chronic mistreatment and an attempt to preserve a career he was already willing to lose his livelihood for (through relatively quietly/apprehensively accepting the fact that he would go down for the cruises scandal).

However, i believe that if any extreme and character-defining manipulative behavior will occur it will manifest itself as an extension of the Nero and Sporus allegory and likely reveal a darker side of Tom — which to me is a logical progression for his character. Think about it, the moments where we’ve seen Tom at his most abusive are (ironically for tomgreg shippers) when he’s around Greg. Thinking a “castration and marriage” metaphor would result in anything but a disregard for boundaries and manipulating Greg into staying by his side? You simply haven’t watched the show 😂 So yeah I definitely agree with you that we are on the path to seeing Tom get completely corrupted by the promise of power, however I think that it will be less directed towards Shiv as it would be towards Greg.

I think (and I mentioned this in another post about the finale — idk if it’s the one you were referring to originally since you’re an anon so forgive me if I’m rehashing something you’ve seen) that Shiv will likely leverage their marriage in this power struggle. A lot of people are mentioning her possibly divorcing him or getting revenge directly in a way that irreparably shatters their marriage, however I think she won’t allow him to get away so easily. Knowing her character she will likely play the field and ensure she has a safety net through continuing indirect involvement with waystar. Don’t get me wrong, it’s obvious she knows Tom ratted them out and any hope of her genuinely loving him is likely gone entirely, but she won’t let a useful card go unplayed. I actually agree with the theory (since it’s been foreshadowed and succession isnt known for superfluous dialogue) that Shiv will get pregnant as a way to keep Tom in her pocket. I think Tom has nothing left in terms of strong leverage against Shiv so…… yeah it will probably be a bloodbath

In conclusion, I think Tom’s darker side will result from his promotion within the company and his need to exercise power over Greg. After playing Shiv, a woman who is indifferent (yet somewhat sympathetic to him) at best, I think that he will seek to retaliate against the other thing that’s been nagging at him all season — Greg’s desire to court powerful women and climb the ladder. It’s pretty clear that Greg has always looked out for himself, even at his most endearing. So I think it’s safe to say that Tom will be back at the mercy of Shiv and using his newfound power on Greg (AKA the same dynamics as seasons 1-3 but under a higher stakes context). It’s hard to say for sure if we’ll totally hate him since succession is such an unpredictable show. He’s arguably one of the most sympathetic characters in the main cast so I think the evil-ification of Tom Wambsgans is yet to come and will likely take some effort to masterfully pull off on the writers’ part. But I wouldn’t be surprised…

[jathis]

Two Times for Sporus

Author’s Note: Sporus was a slave that was castrated by Emperor Nero and forced to be his wife. His life fucking sucked.

Please take this as a warning

***

[[MORE]]

“This wasn’t supposed to happen. None of this was supposed to happen. How could any of this come about? Humans…how can they take something so harmless and simple and turn it into this?!”

The voice pierced its way through the blinding pain. His eyes opened and slowly focused on the figure sitting not too far away. He flinched away at first, terrified that the emperor had sent this one to ensure the castration had been completed. He stopped however when the figure looked over at him, white wings spreading from its back.

“Oh, you’re awake.” The figure moved closer and he flinched, covering his head with trembling hands. A warm hand touched him and he felt some of his fear wash away and he looked back up at the sad looking figure. “This is all my fault,” he whispered.

“Who..?”

“I only told the little boy he should pursue an interest in music and the arts! I never meant for any of this to happen.” Aziraphale; for that was who it was of course, ran his fingers through the slave’s hair. “I know that’s of no comfort to you now but...but I truly didn’t mean for any of this to happen.”

He stayed until Sporus finally lost consciousness, keeping him safe until others came in to collect him.

***

After Nero’s suicide, Nymphidius was the first. He continued to call Sporus “Poppaea” and treated him like a wife. Sporus had nowhere else to go and so he tolerated it. The man had his eyes on the throne to become the new Emperor. They all did. He was killed by his own guards.

Then there was Otho. He had been married to the real Poppaea once before Nero forced them to divorce so he could have her. Sporus sometimes wondered if things would have been better if she had been allowed to stay with her first husband. She certainly wouldn’t be kicked to death while pregnant at any rate.

Otho killed himself three months into his reign as Rome’s emperor.

And now there was Vitellius. Sporus had heard that the whole of Rome did not see the man as emperor but he was enough of one to give commands and force people to obey him for now.

Like the order for Sporus to play the main part in a re-enactment of the Rape of Proserpina in the middle of the arena for everyone to see.

Sporus sat alone in his room, feeling ill at the thought of what was supposed to happen. He was expected to play the part of Proserpina, of course. He would be taken in front of the entire arena and be stripped and then…

“There are other ways out of this, you know. Although I’m not sure if you’ll like any of them.”

He whirled around, heart racing. Who was this man? How had he gotten into his room? He placed a hand on his chest, trying to still his heart. “Who are you?” he whispered.

“A friend,” Crowley answered. He tilted his head, looking at Sporus sadly behind his darkened glasses. “He’s got guards posted all over to make sure you can’t escape. He also took away anything that could be used as a weapon too.”

“...he wouldn’t want to risk not having a show tomorrow,” he bitterly said. He watched as the odd man nodded his head in understanding. “Can you help me?”

“I made a promise to an old friend to offer you my services,” Crowley agreed. He reached into his robes, producing a slender dagger with a snake themed hilt. He twirled it briefly between his fingers and then held it out to Sporus. “This is all I can offer you, I’m afraid.”

Sporus took the dagger from him without hesitation.

Crowley stayed until Sporus finally died, keeping his body safe until Death came to collect.

“I hate this place,” Aziraphale later whispered, burying his face against the side of Crowley’s neck.

“I know,” Crowley agreed, rubbing his back.

[sigurdjarlson]

You have to remember that in terms of the Nero and Sporus story, it's not following what actually happened in history. It follows Tom's weird twisted version of their story. Tom never mentioned Sporus giving Nero a ring nor did he mention them dying

True very true. Tom’s weird very romanticized version could go anywhere. I’m just wondering how the writers are going to have this play out. How far they want to take it and if they plan on giving them a similarly miserable ending.

I couldn’t tell you where they even might plan on going in s4 beyond Greg almost definitely screwing Tom at some point over so it’s worth speculating on if they wanted to stick to the similar to Nero Sporus thing but it it’s own succession, business-Ified way.