Is it better if John erased their memories, or if they came back that way and he just decided not to fix them?
It's immensely better if he intentionally mindwiped them. TO ME.
I'm a John fan. I think he's a tremendous tragic antagonist, and that everything he does in the HtN backstory is relatable if not painful familiar. He was under immense pressure, trying to mitigate the literal end of the world, having his mind and his whole self changed in ways he had no frame of reference to understand. He went from being desperate and trying to do his best to being carried away by circumstances to going absolutely fucking insane. There are many ways to rationalise John's actions all the way to the end, which is what makes it such an effective corruption arc. If you want to engage in some blorbo apologism, there are plenty of excuses to be found.
There's absolutely no fucking way to excuse mind-wiping his friends. THAT is why it's so important to me that he did it deliberately, in cold blood, justifying it to himself as a way to take their burdens upon himself so they wouldn't have to feel guilty. He removed their agency. He didn't want any peers in the world he'd created. He could have acknowledged what had happened, for better or worse, and tried to make amends - but instead, he chose to remove their knowledge that something had even happened in the first place. It's the turning point! I need him to go into that with his eyes fully open. He's doing it on purpose! He weighed the pros and cons and prioritised his comfort over his friends' identities.
EYE believe that his story arc is infinitely more powerful if there's a point we can look at and say "here is when John's story went from things happening TO HIM to John doing terrible things". Especially in a backstory that's ultimately about divine corruption and losing touch with your humanity, I think that turning point needs to be something that has a personal value to him, something that can't be chalked up to "he was high on death" or "humanity was doomed" or even "he touched the soul of the earth and went insane."
I think it's important, thematically, that one of his first actions after acquiring godlike powers was to make sure that no one would be able to remember his human self and challenge him on equal footing, even if he's still internally lamenting his own loneliness and wishing things were different.
Obviously, this is all coming from a known John Girlie™ and Eldritch Alecto Enjoyer — I interpret John's ascension to quasi-divinity as something that was mostly imposed ON him and he couldn't control, which is why I need him to cross the moral event horizon outright with the mind violation of his inner circle. Someone who views John as more directly culpable in the end of the earth might feel less strongly about the importance of the mindwipe in his story arc than I do, but TO ME it's the culmination of the tragedy. You've become the inhuman horror, baby.
/post that inspired the question
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Continued dumb things that rattle around in my noggin at like, all times.
This is nothing new, of course; we have talked to DEATH how significant that moment of surprise is in the context of quimchee revealing that Nol likes a nice smile. But the additional context I enjoy is that we know by this stage the friendships Nol meant to be pretend were so real. We already can glean that Nol was very drawn to Shinae in a genuine way - both as a person he wanted to help but also as a friend he earnestly wanted to be friends with.
But, correct me if I'm wrong, this is the first time he sees her smile like that - at a time when she's clearly uncomfortable and miserable on the spot in front of so many people, without her comfort jacket, at an event he knows she's being forced to attend. And it's because of him.
Nol's whole thing is helping people, putting good back into the universe, trying to improve situations for other people. He's surely made Dieter and Soushi smile and laugh.
But here it feels SO loaded and significant. Shinae with her tall, dense walls. Shinae who has been so difficult to reach. Shinae whose friendship he genuinely wants, genuinely enjoys, despite how she tried to stay safe in her shell, in this uncomfortable moment laughing and smiling in such a bright radiant way.
He's a sucker for a good smile.
And he brought her that comfort.
I don't think it's necessarily an attraction thing as much as it's one of those very important bricks laid in their foundation. Nol doesn't in that moment consciously realize he likes Shinae. I think something just strikes him in that moment. That smile, that radiant joy, makes him feel something he can't identify.
THINK ABOUT IT. He's just come back from meeting Alyssa who immediately took off after Meg even though they haven't met in so long. Standing here watching Shinae endure an awkward, uncomfortable dance in front of strangers, everyone recognizes Kousuke - but not Nol. He's a stranger to his family's world, even to his girlfriend. He's just another guy in the crowd.
But there's Shinae, who sees him. The same Shinae who has taken notice of his scuffed knuckles. The same Shinae who, after the dance, immediately goes to him and asks about him.
It's no wonder he says this.
I think seeing Shinae at the formal, clearly against her will, is the moment Nol remembers what happens to people he cares about. He got invested, he sought her friendship, and even though he doesn't know why she's there, he's certain it's her proximity to him. Even before Sangchul, before the pool, Nol remembered the danger.
It's after this he gives Kousuke his word that he'll avoid Shinae, and I think that's why. He already had the intention of distancing himself. It was supposed to be fake and he knew it wasn't and that he doesn't deserve her friendship he put her in danger by showing interest. She had drawn boundaries, she didn't even really want his friendship it'd be fine.
But then he made her laugh. But then she spotted him when no one else did. Then she burst into that bright, radiant laughter because of him and he probably knew: it was too late. He screwed up and yet....
Nothing is okay everything is messed up but he puts on that mask anyway. For friendship. Because he needs to. For her comfort. So he can convince himself he can actually pull away. So he can convince himself it doesn't mean anything else.
So he can convince himself someone cares about him, that maybe something is real even if real means danger.
(But he can't and we know it and we watch it over and over. It's too late and he just can't stay away.)
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So... I don't really know where to start this meta thing I'm going to attempt to write here? I suppose I'll begin with what prompted me to really think of this and want to write the whole thing: there's a new Buffyverse book that's come out, about a new Slayer (it's called "Sign of the Slayer"), and from having read some reviews for it on Amazon, I guess the MC falls in love with a vampire in it. And I should mention that I'm really not trying to knock this novel here. At all (especially since I'm sure it's a fine book). I mean, I haven't read it, so it's not fair for me to have any opinion on it as a novel at all.
My issue, however, is the whole the Slayer in it being in love with a vampire thing. And it's definitely not the first thing to do it. And that's my problem: that this is sort of starting to become a trend.
I'll admit that I got into Buffy the Vampire Slayer pretty late (namely because I was too young to watch it when it was airing). I think I first watched it and Angel around 2018, or something like that. And I knew from cultural osmosis that both Angel and Spike where characters who were vampires in the show, and ones that would be love interests for Buffy. And I just remember feeling before watching the show, "She's a vampire slayer and she has a relationship with two vampires? She must not be doing her job very well." And I felt like the show would be something like The Vampire Diaries, True Blood, and/or Twilight (Bella doesn't have two vampire love interests. Rather it's a paranormal love triangle between her, a vampire, and a werewolf, but you know what I mean)... when that couldn't be further from the truth.
Joss Whedon himself said that he felt that when he was doing the Buffy and Angel relationship that, yeah, it was a bit of a cliché: but it felt like one he had to do: one, because the chemistry between Sarah Michelle Gellar and David Boreanaz was off the charts. And two, that it was just kind of too perfect, that Buffy would fall for the one person that she was meant to destroy.
And you know what? I definitely think Buffy and Angel worked, for the most part. Buffy started to fall for Angel before she knew that he was a vampire, so it was probably impossible to halt those feelings even when she did learn the truth. Whereas Angel is taken to see Buffy when she's Called to be the Slayer, and it gives him something to fight for for the first time ever, really.
After a hundred years of just wallowing in guilt because of the things he did after getting his soul, he now realizes he can do more--and try to make amends--by helping her in the good fight, and trying to help this poor girl who wouldn't have much of a chance without him, and who has no idea the things she's really about to face.
And when he sees her parents fighting about her that night (the first night she had to sneak out to slay a vampire), about whose fault it was their child snuck out, Angel sees himself in her--because his own life used to be like that. And he wants to protect her from some of the fall-out of what happened to him.
Then they meet and fall in love (partially because they can understand each other like no one else can, in that both of them are creatures who neither fully belong in the human or demon world. There's a demon in the Slayer, too)... the vampire thing is revealed, and they realize there can never be anything between them and try to stay apart, but can't.
They truly start dating in S2, and are happy, but then they learn more about the curse that was put on Angel that returned his soul: if he ever experiences a moment of pure happiness, he'll lose his soul and become a monster again. Which happens, because he loves Buffy too much (after one night of passion between the two). So Angel and Buffy become enemies, and when he eventually tries to destroy the world she has to send him to Hell.
He does come back a year later (with his soul back, after Willow restored it). And they try to make a go at it again, but they can't ever really be together--and deep down, they know they're kidding themselves and there's no real chance for them--and eventually Angel leaves for his own show, to continue fighting in L.A. instead of Sunnydale (after Buffy's given him the confidence that he really can do good). And they'll have some crossovers after that: always being there for the other, if the other needs them and connected.
It works because their story is tragic... and that they know a Slayer and vampire can't be together. There's also just something so deep and profound, that Buffy and Angel are perfect for each other, in that they'll always put the fate of the world before their own selfish desires--as any good person should--but that's the exact reason they can't be together.
But then, later, they try to do stuff with Spike... And even when I was more of a Spuffy fan, it still worked less for me and I was starting to feel that, "This is giving Buffy a bad look" thing (even if I get how people might argue it instead shows that she realizes the world isn't black and white). Like, writers, if you're saying that Buffy and Angel can never work/should never work because Buffy's a Slayer and Angel's a vampire, why are you almost acting like that's not true of Buffy and Spike, then? And the fact that this becomes Buffy's second vampire lover... like I could accept one, the way they handled it. But two? Really?
There was Buffy and Dracula stuff, of course, too. And Buffy definitely didn't have feelings for Dracula, as she was under thrall the whole time with him. But he's the only vampire she ever drank the blood of. And there was probably supposed to at least be a physical attraction, since originally they'd planned to cast Freddie Prinze Jr in the role.
Then in Boom's first Buffy the Vampire Slayer AU, Xander got turned into a vampire and Buffy wasn't sure if she loved him or not.
And people probably don't count this--and probably for good reason--but Ford was someone Buffy had a crush on before she came to Sunnydale... but in dying of brain cancer (and not wanting to die a slow, painful death), and knowing Buffy was the Slayer, he came to Sunnydale and made a deal with Spike and Drusilla that he would lead her into a trap for them if they changed him. And he succeeded in this... even though she escaped, and they of course didn't get to kill her, so they turned him, and Buffy had to stake him at the end of the episode.
In the "In Every Generation" series, Frankie likes a demon (Aspen, as well. These two Slayers are in love with the same one). But, I guess, at least that's a demon instead of a vampire to make it somewhat different.
And I'm worried the new Slayer in "Slayers" will be in love with a vampire...
I also just know that if the Buffy the Vampire Slayer reboot show would have happened (if it had been a sequel, instead of a reboot. Because if it would have been a reboot, I would have been okay with Buffy falling in love with Angel again. Even though I would have wanted it to be just Angel. Or Angel and Spike combined into one character for the aforementioned reasons. -shot-), they would have had her fall for a vamp, too.
(I haven't finished reading "Slayer" and "Chosen" yet. So far, I'm not getting the impression that Nina will fall for a vamp, because she's so anti-Buffy, but I could also be wrong. And maybe this could be part of her character development, in realizing the world isn't in black and white as she thought. IDK. I'll keep reading.)
Let's also not forget Faith hitting on Angel and Spike. Though, to be honest, I'm less inclined to count this... because I think we all know she really didn't want them, but Buffy instead.
But, I mean, can we stop? I thought our Slayer Buffy having a thing for a vampire was supposed to be special?
And now, for the heck of it, I'm going to go through any Slayer I can think of who has had a thing for not just vampires (but also those, of course), but a magical being:
The Slayer in the "Girl in Question," who was not Buffy, who slept with the Immortal.
In Buffy season 8, the "Twilight" prophecy is talked about. It seems like a Slayer was meant to have sex with a vampire for this prophecy--this was a part of the next stage of evolution--and they were then meant to evolve even more together (into gods, create a new world together, etc.). This is clearly Buffy and Angel, but I guess there was one point where a group of Watchers had thought it had happened earlier than this--and the prophecy was coming to pass--and they all killed themselves because of it. So was there some sort of vampire and Slayer romance back then (probably not. The comics at least make it clear that Buffy was the first Slayer to ever have sex with a vampire). Unless it was romance between these two (at least temporarily), and it just didn't go as far as sex. Or maybe it was none of this, and they didn't know that part of the prophecy (about Twilight happening because of love because of a Slayer and vampire) at all yet.
Kennedy with Willow, who is a witch.
In one of the Buffy "Tales of the Vampires" comics, this guy and this girl are best friends (it's also pretty clear they like each other). The guy gets turned into a vampire, however... He then finds out his best friend was a Slayer (this is after Buffy activated the Slayers in S7). The two of them are fighting at the end of the story, and it ends on a cliffhanger about who will win. But you kind of get the sense that the vampire will, and that he'll turn the Slayer.
Melaka Fray, at the very least, acknowledges after Angel has this powerful leader moment why her sister Erin thinks that Angel and Spike are hot, even if she still thinks she's a deviant for it. LOL
Satsu with Buffy, who is a Slayer.
Faith with the hitting on Angel and Spike, mentioned above, while surely really wanting Buffy. She also got with Robin Wood, who is the son of a Slayer and has some slight powers because of that. And I also swear there was something between her and Gigi in the comics, who was another Slayer. And that, maybe, the comics were hinting at something between her and Willow in the end.
Gigi: I feel like she and Faith had some feelings for each other (both of these girls being Slayers). And it also seemed like Gigi felt for her one guardian figure (it's been a while since I've read S8). Who was some sort of warlock or sorcerer, who ended up betraying her in the end?
Edit: And, yes. I get why some probably think these relationships work best for Slayers, because Slayers have demons in them and vampires and demons do too, obviously. Or because Slayers have super strength and these beings are strong like them and won't get hurt, and that's fair. (People also find Slayer/human relationships boring, the way they've been portrayed in the Buffyverse.)
But I still think Slayer/human relationships could be done (and at this point, it would actually be more original than pairing a Slayer with a demon): like look at how people love the idea of the Buffy Summers/Dean Winchester crossover ship. It can be done. It just needs to be done right.
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