#i hate grrm so much for making me like incestuous relationships

[eternallovers65]

Anyway Matt Smith and Milly Alcock didn't have to go all the way with this sexual tension but my bi ass is very glad they did

[brydeswhale]

My Giant Anti-Jonsa Hate Post, AKA why a person might not ship Jonsa other than hating Sansa :P

I'm warning you ahead of time, this is mostly me rambling. I'm not smart. Lots of smart people you can read, go read them.

So, I've noticed this tendency amongst some Jonsa shippers to sort of dismiss any criticism as Sansa-hate. Sometimes they are actually correct, some people only read ASOIAF in order to see Jon as a typical hero and any female character as simply the reward Jon gets for being a hero, which is so weird. There is a similar feeling that the biggest reward a female character can get is Jon's dick, so, um, yeah.

Having said that, I have a lot of reasons not to ship Sansa with Jon outside of how my ego feeds into my reading. I have read pics with them as the pairing, tbh, if you're a Sansa fan you kind of get pulled into it just because it's so hard to find ANY fics where Sansa gets treated decently that I just treat Jon in those fics as an original character.

I will now list my non-jonsa feels, in no particular order.

I do not believe the text supports it.

A lot of smart people have dug through the text and pointed to what they believe are clues. I'm not going to go through all of these because some of them are, IMO, a reach so far that the proponents have hired a gibbon to do the reaching.

One of those that kind of makes me super perplexed is the whole Jonnel/Sansa thing. Shippers will point to that as some kind of sign that their ship will sail, but honestly, I do not think so. Or at least, I hope it's not a portent of Jonsa.

Jonnel Stark and his plot line with the original Sansa seem to have more in common with the modern story of Alys Karstark and her flight from her uncle and cousin, who attempted to usurp her claim to Karhold by forcibly marrying her.

That is to say, it's a dark, sad story, made all the worse by the fact that Sansa eventually died, and she and Jonnel never had issue. In fact, Jonnel didn't have kids with his second wife, either. Possibly divine punishment for usurping and marrying his niece, IMO.

Most of the other "Jonsa" foreshadowing, I'm sorry to say, seems similar to that, basically. Either it's a sort of retelling of a completely different event happening in the present, or it's a sort of a weird, long reach. Like the idea that the comet is meant to foreshadow Jonsa, which is, honestly, so weird it's laughable, or pointing to times that Jon has complimented Sansa's looks. Some people even try to fit the Bael the Bard story to Jonsa.

It doesn't seem to fit with the how the text treats incest, in my opinion.

Much is made of the show's revelation that Jon and Sansa, despite being raised as and considering each other siblings, are biologically cousins, what with the revelation that Rhaegar kidnapped a teenaged Lyanna Stark and murdered her through reproductive abuse. For a lot of people this makes the incestuous aspect of the text "not count"(which is annoying for other reasons I will discuss later).

I just don't think "they're actually cousins" really works here, either, though.

GRRM sort of seems to use incest as kind of a shorthand for corruption. The Targaryens are the main example, their inbreeding a symbol of their incapacity as humans, and Craster is a giant screaming red flag but there are other incestuous marriages that seem to operate as symbols for the people involved, most notably the elder Lannister and Stark marriages.

The marriage of Tywin Lannister is an interesting sort of backdrop for the Lannister family as a whole. Joanna is often regarded, in both fandom and the series itself, as a sort of softening influence, a better version of Cersei, the true queen of Casterly Rocks, whose relationship with Tywin was very normal and healthy.

However, when examining Tywin Lannister's serious case of narcissism, I find it very unlikely that he would be capable of anything resembling normal in a marriage. It seems likely to me that his love of Joanna was more likely based on the same thing Cersei and Jaime's relationship was based on, AKA a damaged, narcissistic monstrosity. The marriage, IMO, was based on the fact that Tywin was attempting to emulate the elitist principles of the Targaryens. Only a Lannister could match a Lannister, in other words.

Then we examine the children of this incestuous union. I don't think its a coincidence that Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion are as fucked up as they are. The example they have of a relationship is fucked up and incestuous, so it wasn't surprising that the twins emulated it. And Tyrion being Tyrion is also not shocking. Joanna may have demanded a place for him, but how much of that was motivated by love, and how much by a similar narcissism to Tywin and Cersei's, the idea of the child as the extension of the self.

But, @brydeswhale , I hear you say, because I have audio processing disorder, what about the Starks?

Well, tbh, I'm pretty sure the Lyarra/Rickard thing being incestuous was an afterthought, another way to mirror the Lannisters, but I do not think they're intended to be an example of incest done right. Rickard had some pretty weird obsessions of his own, if certain people are to be believed, and Lyarra is a near non-entity.

And while their kids seem to be, well, less fucked up than the Lannisters, it's still worth noting that two of the four are dead, of the two survivors, one dedicated himself to ensuring his family's full isolation from the rest of the country and the other joined a penal colony full of slave soldiers dedicated to what amounts to a border patrol that, whatever its origins, seems intent on enforcing an economic and cultural barrier to a random set of ethnic groups beyond the Wall, so good job there.

And even when Brandon and Lyanna were alive, well, no fault to Lyanna, she seems like a good kid, but Brandon was apparently an antagonistic dick and, well, he doesn't seem to have been very respectful of women.

Incest almost seems like a code in GRRM for "something is very wrong here and it won't end well, even for the innocents" and I just don't see him choosing to go against that.

As an incest survivor, the lightness with which the Jonsa fandom treats that aspect of it is messed up.

I don't tend to talk too much about my past as a CSA survivor, but yeah, there is it is. It kind of weirds me out, DOESN'T trigger me, just weirds me out, how casually the ASOIAF fandom treats incest bc, um, yeah, its not really casual. I feel like GRRM treats it with a great deal of gravitas, but fandom kind of skips over it, which is weird.

The "Real" siblings stance is obnoxious

There exists, within fandom, a tendency to devalue families outside the biological family.

It's not specific to ASOIAF, don't get me wrong. It's the same thing that had people giggling over Thor's defensive "he's adopted" or talking about which Robin is "the real son". It also lends itself to pairing in those fandoms based on those same ideas. It's not incest, after all, if they're not really related?

This might seem like small potatoes to some people, but the problem with this is that it's also a problem outside fandom, and it's something I've dealt with my entire life.

See, my family also isn't "real" according to this rule.

I have foster siblings, step siblings, half siblings, so on and so forth. I have siblings I'm almost completely alienated from, siblings I love more than life itself, and siblings who are ex-siblings, pining for the fjords, kicked the bucket, bought the farm, blah, blah, blah.

So to hear people talk about how Jon and Sansa aren't real siblings because of the complexity of how their relationship came to be, how close they are, whether or not the moon was full when they met, is actually kind of hurtful.

It tells me something about the people using this trope and what they subconsciously think of my family. How "real" we are to them, and how much we matter. It kind of makes me think we don't really matter, that because we don't share DNA, we don't count.

Also:

Jon is one of my least favourite characters and Sansa can do better.

To Be VERY VERY clear:

I'm not saying don't ship them, don't read it, etc, etc. If you want to, it's up to you. Like I said, I read it sometimes, just because it's so ubiquitous. I have plenty of pairings that other people might hate, or think are immoral, etc. These are just my feelings, tbh.

I just think dismissing all criticism or even plain distaste for this ship down to not liking one character or another, or whatever, is kind of messed up. There are lots of valid reasons not to like a ship, and it's worth considering all of them.

[horizon-verizon]

you are dumbest bitch ever, weirdo cunt, would you like your own father to fuck you? i mean, if you enjoy incest so much

I mean...thank you? For giving me the opportunity to talk more about this. HERE is another post I think others can refer to where I talk about Targ incest. Below I give a link about Targ "madness".

Although I'm not sure why you are even here in this fandom if you hate the Targs so much bc they don't do grandparent/parent-grandchild/child marriages.

And the closest to that is not even a Targ/Valyrian/Valyrian-descent marriage but an Andal one: Samantha Tarly and Lyonel Hightower, a stepmother marrying her stepson after many years of them just being together desire the previous High Septon denouncing them for their relationship.

Mind you, in Westeros, you can marry your first cousin. It's not considered incest anywhere, it's not even discussed or challenged. The Faith doesn't conceive of it as incestuous and is be surprised to hear that many characters are actually products of either immediate incest marriages (parents) or the products of consistent, intermittent 1sy cousin marriages (the Starks, Tyrion, Cersei & Jaime's parents being 1st cousins, etc.). And for all this incest being performed b/t both Andals, First Men, amd Targs, we have yet to see serious textual evidence of terrible genetic consequences. Again, this is centuries of incest--i can't really say that it is bc of incest alone that makes Westerosi the hell hole it is for some groups of people. After generations of 1st cousin incest happening in more isolated places with families all sharing some sort of genetic link continuing to perform 1st cousin incest, if we go by real world incest we should be seeing a lot more malformed people in the North. Northmen, for example, usually just marry Northmen. Karatarks routinely marry Starks so there first cousins marrying each other all the time. This Starks & Karstarks theoretically should share a lot of DNA. Also, Targ madness is not genetic nor is it even frequent or common enough to be said to be a consequence of incest. Only a few went "crazy" and it was because of external events and sociopolitical pressures. And Jae I and Alysanne's marriage did not disintegrate or take hits bc of incest but because Alysanne hated how Jaehaerys kept women in their family from becoming Queen Regnants and for how he acted towards their kids.

So even if u argued that 1st cousins are "better" with the arguments of "less chance of genetic diseases or conditions"; "the Targs went crazy", you'd both be hypocritical and actually incorrect.

ASoIaF is a series with unequaled consequences of incest compared to the real world. If you mad, refer to GRRM or protect your peace and don't read the books.

[wolfsneedles]

i like how prophetic dreams and prophecies in itself different from visions are interpreted in different ways and in diff directions but also by different people for eg stannis and Mel, Rhaegar and dany or other targaryen kings. Jojen and bran, Cersei and Maggy etc...

Melisandre usually tumbles and makes mistakes she sees what she sees but not exactly she wants to see what should be accurate considering how her major azhor ahai is stannis, was a mistake and an error. However recently we know she sees snow in flames. jon. but im skeptical about him being prince that was promised or AA, when you have....daenerys right here. But she still commits mistakes idk maybe rh'ollor is lil unhinged and is messing with her, but no. i think she is prone to change and her prophecies change too. Mel doesn't stick up to one interpretation and pretty sure will leave stannis in long run if she believes who is AA to her.

But stannis, is stubborn and crude. As a skeptic and well part atheist, he took her words and religious ventures too seriously and has attached with the prophecy too vehemently as if he has to be AA at any cost not knowing prophecy can't matter in the end even, but its so funny to me he risked most of the stuff for red priestess who just came to her and is like, "ight u be the king cuz u have targaryen blood"

Jojen reeds dreams are like mostly about starks and wolves and how they will come back again and when bran and others ask him if what he sees can be changed, he says no. which means him seeing something can be finalized testament or something that will happen one way or other since starks coming back or wolves coming back, is like obvious thing since they have their might broken. Bran is currently well being trained by bloodraven so his views weren't yet in first books but evolved with time.

And my fav part is cersei's prophecy of valonqar and maggy. She is destined or was to marry king not prince and she would have 3 children while robert 16 bastards, and we never knew and it was strange to me how lannisters never acquired or were even mildly amused by idea of magic all the way but cersei going to a witch when she was in casterly rock with her companions was like a major twist for me since i never assumed her to be like that, however she knows her fate will end by valonqar and a young more beautiful queen (def dany) will replace her and take what she holds dear. However cersei's reaction to this prophecy when she herself asks witch to tell her fortune is volatile. She takes to anger and resists it from coming true. She even shapes her life and everything according to not letting the prophecy come true but it follows her to in a way that she does marry robert and has 3 children by incestuous relationship. At the very best however, she avoids it because she hates the truth of it. She steers away from it.

Rhaegar is a different matter to me. I like how he was born as melancholic and amidst grief during tragedy of summerhal and well overall, for me had tragic demise but he took the prophecy too serious differently than stannis even. He made sure to follow and correct it and apply it aptly on his marital life and social life. He even kind of got too carried away and dreamy with it that he didn't himself realise the situation changing with Robert's rebellion and everything happening. Rhaegar however we knew was kind of intellectual and sensual personality so maybe he took the targaryen grief of years of no dragons too seriously too. And in the end well...prophecy really didn't work for him and most of his actions failed him and those around.

Dany is so different in this regards tbh. She is part of two prophecies for me the 'prince that was promised' and AZHOR AHAI. and the last 'younger more beautiful queen'. I mean it's startling. Unlike her brother and even old ancestors of her blood, she intrinsically is tied to so many of these prophetic verses and proves on so many occasions especially after birth of dragons that she indeed can be Azhor Ahai or maybe - the best candidates for her. She doesn't really is obsessed with it or neither is she forcing someone to tell her fate like cersei and then meet the rejection with rudeness infact she kind of subverts expectations one has of glaring prophecy which everyone imagines to be a prince...or a man. But dany really isn't a man lol and neither a prince. Aemon did say too the translated prophecy can have error too and it was not really prince who is promised but could be well...princess if that's even the correct term. Her birth of dragons explained in numerous posts and metas is so phenomenal and makes her ever so wonderful and magical than her all ancestors who died in all tragic ways because they made the prophecies too tied to their lives and were utterly obsessed with it. They were reminiscing over grief of dragons but daenerys bought dragons that to, three back to world after stepping into drogo's pyre and performing a ritual she herself only realised in the end what she was doing and thanks to well MMD. She realized later but still did she realise how the stone eggs did exudate warmth and called to her. Im pretty sure all other targayens and their expectations and experiences were all in vain or went down drain. Dany on the other hand independently alone and on her own without help of anyone but only subtly joining clues and hints, sorted out and stitched the importance and relevance of it. The dragons and ritual. It was anyways a one time magical event too, no wonder her bringing dragons to world is written as " music of dragons" and night came alive with it in AGOT. (interesting that grrm says music of dragons and well rhaegar also liked playing sad music at ruins of summerhall, an emo prince yea)

And Daenerys doesn't really is tied herself to prophecy but most of the prophecies are tied to her. The Younger More Beautiful Queen one indicates at her..tbh and really no one including cersei and her knows about it. The AzAhai one also points to her because she was born in salts of dragonstone and smoke refers to birth of dragons and cracking of sound and smoke during pyre. The sword forged from flame can obv be pointed to drogon whose birth is like fire made flesh of a dragon hence that, and also when Xaro X Daxos says, of her dragons 'as flaming sword'.

but not getting into details of AA as dany because again, there are a lot of essays to it.

I just pointed out how stannis makes prophecy his and forced a little on people, how jojen trains bran too in a way and he still takes time to learn this green visions thing, cersei staggers away from it and damages people to not fulfill it or prevent it from engulfing her...but dany has no idea yet as far of any prophecy only a dream, and house of undying visions which she herself doesnt yet believe all so much we rlly dont know, yet she fulfills def 2/3 prophecies.

[unknown-terrain]

Hi! I read your tags on my JB post, how did you know I was talking about J*nsa? I know people ship Sansa with everyone, she's like the fandom bicycle, but I'm a bit surprised to see people theorize that a relationship where two people (Jaime and Brienne) who are important to each other's character development, have romantic/sexual feelings for each other, etc is only meant to be platonic, while a relationship between two siblings which is basically non-existent because they weren't close growing up, and barely think of each other is going to be the ultimate romance of ASoIaF. How does this make sense? Am I reading these books wrong? I have no dog in the J0nerys VS J0nsa fight (they're both incestuous so I dislike them equally), but I can understand where JD comes from. It happened on the show but JS? Why? Jon broke his oaths when "Arya" got married to Ramsay but not when Sansa married Tyrion. If GRRM ends up making JS canon, he will have a lot of explaining to do.

What can you expect from the same people who also think Jaime helped plan the Red Wedding? Nothing much lol. Nobody should take what certain Jonsass say seriously. I mean their posts are good for entertainment and laughs because of the cray conspiracy theories/outlandish takes but that's about it. It's hilarious how obviously pressed they are about Jaime/Brienne. I know it has to do with J/B's concrete canon status which Jonsa doesn't have and also because they're fans of that pedo/abuser Cersay as well as romanticizing TwInCeSt which is funny and hypocritical of them considering how much they hate Jaime and act like he's worse than Cersay even though she abused their fave while Jaime is actually trying to help Sansa. Also Brienne is ugly and from people who ship siblings mostly because they're HaWt, no way can Brienne have a love interest! Of course this doesn't apply to Jonsas who ship J/B. Anyways seeing certain Jonsass act the way they do like pulling crap out of thin air makes me feel grateful I'm not into crackships.

[elegantfirepoetry]

I feel so very stupid now...

I'm back.

Pretty sure no one cares but whatever. I'm going to write my post with my thoughts regardless as I need to get things off my chest.

First: this is going to be a GoT post. You have been warned.

Second: I want you to know that after GOT season 8 finale I've spent two days being catatonic and couldn't stop crying at every turn. I was angry and disappointed that such an amazing show ended up in such shitty way, destroying every characters arch's plot for the sake of sUbVeRtInG eXpEcTaTiOnS! I had to delete my Tumblr app from the phone, untag me from any GoT related arguments and ban the hashtag from all my social media. I needed time to heal. But I haven't heal and, in hindsight, I am even mad at myself for having such extreme reaction for a TV show, but I couldn't help myself than feeling betrayed.

Third: passed the catatonic days and general disappointment for such a great show ended in such a shitty way, I have directed my rage towards all my GoT stuff. I have destroyed everything I possessed of that show but a Targaryen t-shirt. Because I still stand by my Queen, Daenerys motherfucking Taragaryen and Emilia motherfucking Clarke for her amazing acting work with such fucked up script.

Forth: I have never hated some living people like the writers and producers of this show. I wish I could make D&D (and even GRRM of this is going to be the END of the books) bath in Wildfire after having a Walk of Shame. I am hating them so much because they had such great storylines and they have twisted them and destroyed them. They didn't even TRYED to make a good work, they simply took the most famous and iconic lines from the old seasons and just glue them together without a sense. Because even trying to watch it again, I can't find a fucking sense of this season.

Fifth: I won't go on analysing all the reason why the show was bad because I think I explained it pretty much in various posts I did during the airing time and, personally, right now I don't have the energy to do it. But as the title says, I feel so very stupid for having believe in this show and in its people.

Before anyone crucify me I want to point out that the ACTORS, RAMIN, THE PEOPLE WORKING IN THE BACKGROUND FOR SPECIAL EFFECTS OR COSTUMES OR WEAPONS AND EVEN THE DIRECTORS WERE AMAZING. BUT THEY HAD TO WORK WITH A SCRIPT THAT WAS A PURE SHITTING PIECE OF WORK.

I was certainly that they would have given as a proper bittersweet ending but what we got was a fucking tragedy with nothing sweet at all. And I have been trying SO HARD to get an idea of what could have happened. I have read my old Game of Thrones posts and the fact that I had put my faith in such people make me feel so, so, STUPID. I always expect the worst to wish myself the best so I started to watch the show seriously expecting the worst of the worst. I couldn't believe that the leaks that have come out almost a year ago and that we scoffed at because they were UNBELIEVABLE bad, could turn out to be real.

THEY HAVE DESTROYED EVERYTHING AND THEY DON'T EVEN FEEL SORRY FOR IT. THEY SERIOUSLY BELIEVE THEY DID A GREAT JOB. IT'S FRUSTRATING WHEN YOU SEE SUCH A POTENTIAL STORY SO WASTED AWAY.

I sincerely hope D&D have read all the bad reviews and understand they did a fucking mess.

Sixth: I want to give you my opinion over JONERYS and why it got the end that it had. If someone will feel offended by what I am going to say, I apologise but I won't take back what I will say. Fight me.

HBO is an American cable and satellite television.

America is full of idiotic prudes.

They couldn't give a happy ending to Jonerys on television because the two characters involved in such couple were BLOODY RELATED and I bet the HBO chiefs were worried that such evolution could send a bad and improper message to people.

God forbid that Americans could actually understand the difference between fictional characters and real life situations.

Before someone insult me and say that I encourage incestuous relationship, I will say that I can understand the difference between a fictional world and reality. In a fictional world you can do WHATEVER YOU WANT. In real world I would never even dream to kiss my cousin for a prank.

GRRM can write what the hell he wants in his books because if someone decides to read the books he/she knows what is going to happen and has to accept what ONE SINGLE WRITER say.

But on a TV show (I bet people were disturbed avout Jamie and Cersei incestuous relationship too), writers and producers couldn't show that same kind of relationship on a better light with our two hero's, Jon Snow and Daenerys Taragaryen.

So they had to make Daenerys a villain, turning her into the MAD MONARCH she always feared to be after that they have taken EVERYTHING from her. They made her a villain justifying it with the fact that she comes from a family that practices interbreeding and BECAUSE OF THAT half of the Taragaryens were mad (this said continuously during any part of the show. Remember Cersei in Ep. 7 Season 2, "A Man without Honor"?) and make Jon - his nephew and lover - kill her because she "had gone mad" and burned them all. This action caused his exile and, with all probability, the extinction of House Taragaryen for good, eradicating the world of Westeros from such horrific family.

Oh, surely. But at the same time let's give one last moment to Cersei and Jamie dying in each others arms under the Red Keep and let's feel sympathetic for them.

HBO is full of misoginist and sexist pieces of shit. That's the ugly truth.

Seveth: Not sure if I will keep making GoT related post. I feel sick of it and I just want to forget it. I wish someone can erase from my memory the entire show and go on with the books only. I will try to mend my poor broken soul with fanfictions.

Thank you to all the amazing authors out there that are trying to save Jonerys and all the other couple that hadn't had a chance on the show. Thank you so much for your talent.

Eight: One last personal satisfaction (I might be the troll of the situation here).

I have never hated the surviving Starks siblings so much like in this season.

Especially Sansa: I have always kind of admired her strength but season 8 made me hate the gut of her. And if there are some Sansa/Starks Stan out there that want to fight for that bitch, BRING IT ON. I HAVE SOME RAGE AND FRUSTRATION TO POUR OUT.

[sanrionharbor-blog]

Thoughts on Sansa S8 Endgame

Speculations galore! Long post ahoy!

Let’s run through every possibility I can think of for the end of show-Sansa’s story (and yes, there will be many more possibilities besides these because GOT is layers upon layers, man, I’m still new to the fandom, and there’s probably a lot I’ve missed).

At the very least, let’s do this categorically.

Dead, Alive, or a Fate Worse Than Death?

1. I’d bet money that Sansa survives the whole dang thing

2. But if she does die…it could be A) Sacrifice to save Arya, Jon, and/or Bran, B) in a possible collapse of Winterfell, C) after ensuring the demise of Cersei or a similar threat, D) something worthy of a song

3. Crack Theory: Sansa Becomes the Night Queen?

Shipping...

1. Let’s start with the most popular ship: Jonsa. While I’m not personally a Jonsa fan, I neither hate it nor see it as a complete impossibility. And while I’m not personally a Jonerys fan, I neither hate it nor see it as a no-brainer. Jonsa makes sense practically (uniting Targ and Stark, North & South; they already trust one another; cousin marriage isn’t considered incest in-universe, etc.), though I’m not entirely convinced if the show goes this direction that it would be the most romantic ship ever. The best I see is that it has vibes similar to Ned/Cat when they were first married to one another; they didn’t love each other romantically at first, but it would come with time. As for political!Jon Theory making this ship possible, while I wouldn’t completely put it past the GOT universe to make Jon that cold, it honestly doesn’t jive with what I think is at the core of Jon: which is a hardscrabble sort of nobility, decency, honesty. I mean, if he was politcal!Jon, wouldn’t he have come up with a smoother way to handle Cersei in their first meeting? Anyhoot, the ship isn’t hateful. I think the biggest obstacles are the fact that, even though they are technically cousins, they were raised as brother and sister. You don’t just erase that. This is somewhat “remedied” by the fact that they were never close and Sansa pretty much treated him as a whole-lot-less-than-a-brother for most of their childhood. But GOT has never shown incestuous relationships (again, I don’t really consider historically based cousin relationships as incestuous, but it is a close family bond never-the-less) as a good thing. At all. The Targ’s went mad; Dany’s brother was creepy as fudge; UMM Jaime x Cersei dear Lord; Craster and his Merry Brood, etc. (But this mainly just spells doom for Jonerys, IMHO). So, as with anything in GOT--it’s possible, it’s also not possible, there’s undertones, but there’s undertones for the complete opposite thing happening, etc. Lastly, as for the “romantic framing” of S7, I think it falls under that same maybe/maybe-not. I LOVE Jon and Sansa’s dynamic, even if I don’t see it as romantic, even if does or does not end up romantic. It is certainly one thing: intimate. And the framing (forehead kiss, bittersweet reunion, worrying for one another’s safety) supports that at the very least. If they don’t end up romantically, Jon is the last real strong male relative that Sansa has. That’s not to diss Bran, but D&D have made him a remote magical old man stuck in a teenager’s body. In some ways, he’s dead to Sansa too (as Meera said, “You died in that cave.”). The poetry, the irony, is that the people Sansa had the most problems with in her family (Arya and Jon) are all that Sansa has left now (yes, yes, I love Bran, but again he’s acting more like a solo unit than a family unit at this point)--and she realizes how much they’ve always meant to her. Jon, and Arya for that matter, are different sides of Sansa, just as she is a different side for each of them. The parallels are lovely, and this ship could very well set sail.

2. My personal favorite: Sanrion (Sansa x Tyrion, Tyrion x Sansa, whatever the preferred parlance is). Yes, I’m biased, so this entry will be the longest--BUT, let’s remove my shipper goggles. This, to me, is just as possible as Jonsa. That is, I don’t see it as guaranteed at all, but there’s plenty to read from the text. Let’s get the trouble spots out of the way: 1) the build-up has been few and far in-between since S4 (though they did throw us a bone in S7). 2) the 50/50 chance of Tyrion dying in S8 (no, I’m not basing this on “leaks,” interviews, or what-not--I’m just using this as a baseline guess, given that this is GOT and given that Tyrion is at the center of a very dangerous web of relationships), 3) the show possibly not wanting to ask a twentysomething actress and a nearly 50-year-old actor to act out anything deliberately romantic (however, I don’t expect an on-screen ship to be anything but unconventionally romantic--I very much see it being done with subtle dialogue, color theory, ambiguous looks, an epilogue, etc), and 4) Tyrion may or may not be in love with Daenerys. None of these trouble spots spells doom for me. The greatest “doom” is simply Sansa ending up alone (thematically possible) or with someone else (also thematically possible). Let’s break down counter-points to the trouble spots, then I’ll list my reasons why this ship could sail. 1) Almost all relationships in GOT are troubled and/or unconventional, built up over one season, hidden underneath layers of symbolism, or suffer from the fact that one or both partners are either dead or seperated (by this same token, Sansa’s other popular ships, Jonsa and Sansan, also suffer the same dearth of “development” or copious screen time. Arguably, Jonsa’s foundations were mostly built over the later seasons), 2) yeah, Tyrion could die (and I would be heartbroken but not blindsided) or Tyrion could live (but I would bet money that Sansa lives through the whole thing), 3) the show already put them through the most awkward phase of their “relationship” (i.e., their wedding night, though it was toned down compared to the books) and they can still sell this relationship in any number of ways (again, dialogue, color theory, looks, just holding hands again geez Louise), 4) Tyrion’s “love” for Daenerys is incredibly debatable and may only be used as fuel for a soap opera plot that I really hope doesn’t happen, but even the director of the S7 finale said Tyrion’s main concern was political and Dinklage proposed the idea that Tyrion only “think he’s in love” with Dany, that what most people feel for Dany is awe (I’m neither a Dany fan or hater, but it’s hard to deny that she’s shocking, enthralling, powerful, attractive, a force, for lack of a better term). Now, on to the practical/thematical reasons why I think this ship would work. Let’s use letters for this, haha. A) Fairy Tale parallels/Turning Tropes Upside Down: It’s easy to read inversions of fairy tale archetypes into Sansa’s storyline, as that is what her character is naturally drawn to: songs, princesses, true love, beauty. So far in the story she has learned that looks can be deceiving; life is not a song (though I wouldn’t be surprised if GRRM turns this on its head again, and Sansa simply learns that all great tales involve sorrow and darkness as well as joy and light--i.e., bittersweet vs. simply sweet); people are not black and white (Tyrion shows her that the Lannisters aren’t necessarily all evil and Littlefinger shows her that allies, even someone who loved her mother, are not necessarily all good); etc. Just some of the fairy tales/tropes that play into Sansa’s personal storyline and the subtext of Sansa x Tyrion include: Beauty and the Beast, Psyche and Cupid, Hades and Persephone, The Princess in the Tower archetype, and many, many more (I’ll meta about it one of these days--and there are already many excellent posts under the Sansa tag that expound on these). B) The Queen Elizabeth Theory: So Sansa has parallels with two remarkable historical Queen Elizabeths: Elizabeth of York and Queen Elizabeth I.  Since this has been said by so many before, here’s a quote and link to the article as summary: “The show is based off the War of the Roses, the real-life family feud between the Lancasters and Yorks that ended with the two broods combining their houses. Since the storyline happening at the end of season seven is extremely similar to this moment in history, we can infer that GoT will follow that path...” Link  C) Character Actions Written Especially For the Show: Just to name a few: GRRM purposely changed a moment in the books to where Sansa hands Tyrion a cup instead of him having to crawl underneath a table to do so; Tyrion remains loyal to his wedding vows (and this is probably inspired by his trauma for having killed his father and lover as well) even when it was very possible that Sansa had left him high-and-dry and the marriage was, in Tyrion’s own words, a “sham marriage”; Sansa and Tyrion both stick up for one another’s character, etc., and D) Also, aren’t they technically married? :-p [There’s a lot more, but again, I’ll save that for a future meta]

3. Sansan: While there may end up being a slight possibility in the books, I don’t think show-Sansa and show-Sandor are heading in this direction. However, the same fairytale motifs play into play here: Beauty and the Beast, Hades and Persephone, etc. Also, bridge4 over on Youtube has a fabulous analysis of the “unKiss” over on his channel, which I think could pop up in some shape or form in S8. Here’s the  link

4. Sansa Alone: Also supports the Queen Elizabeth theory. Specifically, Elizabeth I “the Virgin Queen.” This would a different form of poetry/irony: Sansa, the one who wanted most to be a queen consort and be married to a handsome king and have babies, ends up as a queen (full-stop) but leverages her power as a single lady. Not my favorite ending for Sansa, as I’m Teh Unabashed Romantic, but it’s plausible, thematic, pragmatic. Only time will tell!

The Fate of the North, Night King, Direwolf Theorizing

Just spitballing various takes:

1. The war is “won” (as in mankind survives), but Winterfell or possibly the entire North is compromised. As in, perhaps they have to trade the North to the Winter King at the promise he won’t invade the rest of Westeros. Or Winterfell explodes, so the North and all of Westeros is saved but the Starks lose their home

2. The Starks deliberately blow up Winterfell, for any number of reasons. Perhaps a bunch of wights or what-nots ended up there. Perhaps the dead in the Crypts were resurrected, and this was the only way to neutralize that threat. Or something deeper and darker lurks in the Crypts, something worse than the Night King. In fact….

3. Maybe the true enemy ends up being something awoken within the Crypts of Winterfell, and the Night King is not what he seems….

4. The old gods play an unexpected role

5. The godswood is burned or ends up in splinters or is used to create a new throne (ending the age of iron, fire, blood and making this a “time for wolves”)

6. Sansa’s direwolf Lady is resurrected (of course, poor Lady is headless…) and manages to wound Cersei (if she gets her arse up north, which seems unlikely) before Cersei’s killed by whoever the heck the Valonquar is

7. Speaking of, could Ghost be the Valonquar? I mean, he was the runt, the littlest brother of the brood. Eh, dunno. I just don’t expect the Valonquar to be anything close to what we think he/she/it/them is.

8. I like the idea of parts of the ocean being permanently frozen over because of something the Night King does. Dunno why. I don’t think there’s any foreshadowing to that in the show; it just sounds cool, and represents a permanent consequence to the land. Because I do not expect there to be zero consequence for the landscape of Westeros itself. The Greyjoy’s are already kinda sorta doomed (with eunuch Theon being the last male of that line, unless Euron’s got a kid somewhere and he ends up surviving to take the throne and not be a dick about it), so it’d be a bit of tragic poetry if their islands, their seas were frozen and lifeless but thanks to their efforts the rest of Westeros is safe and their people will have to make a life on land

9. One or both remaining dragons are frozen for all timez

10. Sansa becomes Queen in the North or Queen of the Seven Kingdoms (is there really an in-between?)

Bonus

Lastly, here’s just an observation on an important part of Sansa’s storyline and character development: Arya Stark. I believe Sansa and Arya adopted different pieces of the original storylines in GRRM’s book proposal outline--not that I put much stock in the outline. Sansa was created, at first, to add tension to the Stark family. GRRM says he was surprised by Sansa’s developments; he also says he empathizes with whichever character he is currently writing, so I think he just naturally found things that he liked in Sansa that made her more than a complication device. Because his original vision included Arya as the sole Stark daughter, I wouldn’t be surprised if Sansa and Arya aren’t the result of this once singular character being developed into two very different ways. The archetypal Amazon Wild Child and the Princess in the Tower. Two sides of the same coin--or, in Ned’s words, Sansa is the sun to Arya’s moon and vice-versa. For this reason, I don’t put it past Sansa to continue developing her personal brand of Brave Northern Lady and Arya developing her personal brand of Brave Northern Lady. Because that is what they both are: brave, northern, ladies. Will Sansa find herself at the center of a love triangle? I really, really hope not, but at this point if it is gonna happen I find it much more likely with Sansa than with Arya.

[maidenoftheforestlight-blog]

You are literally a disgusting degenerate thinking that a young fucking child is "exploring her own desires" by trying to deal with a grown man who has threatened to rape her. I bet you gross ass would think that the creep who kidnapped poor Elizabeth Smart was just trying to keep her safe. The irony of having a problem with incest but not with pedophilia you piece of shit freak.

Firstly, I want you to know that I don’t appreciate this abuse or this accusation and the sheer hatefulness of this post, the fact that you went on a personal attack over shipping, is both a ridiculous overreaction and grounds for being blocked.

But I’m going to give you a chance and try to reason with you first. Because, rather like Sansa, I like to believe the best of people. I think you’re better than how you’ve presented yourself. 

 Now, I feel like if you’re going to treat these characters as if they were actually real people in a real world that plays by the rules of modern society you would find an incestuous relationship between siblings (and as a person who comes from a family of adoptees- not that that’s your business- the fact that they’re really cousins makes no difference to me. They are siblings and love each other as siblings) just as abhorrent as a potential future relationship between Sansa and Sandor… two people who regardless of their age difference have made a huge (overwhelmingly positive) impact on each other and canonically have a relationship with romantic tension.

 If you have a problem with the Sansan romance, take it up with GRRM… he’s the one writing it into the series. There are a lot of couples with big age differences in the asoiaf universe (e.g Jaime and Brienne have exactly the same age gap). If you’re ok with cousin incest because of “medieval times were different” (an assumption on my part, I know. I actually have no idea why you’re ok with incest in this fictional world but I’m going to also go ahead an assume that you’re not ok with incest in reality… A courtesy you unfortunately have not extended to me) then it strikes me as odd that you’re not also ok with GRRM’s use of “big age gaps were common back then”… especially since both things actually aren’t really all that historically accurate to most of medieval Europe… Certainly not as general practices like they are in Westeros. 

Most Sansan shippers ship this relationship because of Sansa’s actual feelings and character development that arise out of this relationship. And no… there’s nothing wrong with people who were also once thirteen year olds reading into the fact that a thirteen year old is exploring her own desires and sexuality through fantasies about an older person that authority figures wouldn’t consider appropriate for her… Because most of us were thirteen years old once (or are thirteen years old now) and most of us had crushes or fantasies about people we could never be with (or even should never be with! gasp!). But here’s the thing about fantasy and fiction, they allow us to explore sides of ourselves that we must otherwise repress. For young women in particular, fantasy can serve to free us (at least in our minds) from the constraints of “socially approved” expressions of sexuality or desire. 

For a character like Sansa whose arc is so concerned with the role of women in society and the acceptable expression of femininity, as well as thoroughly policed and controlled female sexuality… It’s important that her “sexual awakening” is prompted not by some kind of Westerosi ideal of masculinity, not at all by a man that any traditional Westerosi Patriarch would choose for his daughter, not by the handsome golden prince of the fairytales Sansa was spoon fed from infancy- the very stories that blinded her to much of what is wrong with her society… No, rather than that shining paragon of Westerosi patriarchal culture, Sansa becomes attracted to Sandor Clegane. A man that for all his many faults (and no one denies that he has many) is also truly a victim of the system, of childhood abuse and neglect, who has never known kindness or compassion, who has been dehumanised by everyone on account of a deformity caused by his own brother (a brother who was rewarded by society rather than punished!) to the point that he is called a dog and treated like a dog… like a Beast, in fact. Because that is what GRRM is reconstructing here; the Beauty and the Beast story. What makes a man become a Beast? What about Beauty triggers change in him? What about Beast makes Beauty start to feel for him…and later fall for him? To see the man hidden behind the ugliness? These are the things GRRM is examining.

Regardless of what you want to believe anon, young teen girls do have sexual fantasies… a good number of them have such fantasies about people way older than them… It’s a thing. If that resonates with a reader who is or was a teenaged girl, that doesn’t make them “disgusting” or a “pedophile”, not does it make GRRM a pedophile. Just as I am sure you do not promote the acceptance of incest in the real world, I think you should really open your mind to the possibility that just because someone finds a fictional relationship with a large age gap interesting, and would like to see where the author takes that relationship in future (keeping in mind that Sansa would likely have been 18 or older by the time she was reunited with Sandor if GRRM had been able to stick to his original plan), it doesn’t mean they even like or accept relationships with large age gaps in reality, even between adults. Accusations of pedophilia are just beyond the pale. You have no idea what people behind the computer screen have gone through in their lives or what their friends, family, acquaintances or colleagues have gone through. You just don’t know. I would ask that you stop to think more carefully before you post any kind of serious accusation like that to anyone again. Especially over anything so trivial as preferences in shipping in a fantasy series. 

Lastly, I know you sent me this message anonymously with the intention that I would “fight back” and get into some kind of argument with you. Maybe you thought I would sling insults back at you and also accuse you of horrible, sick crimes. I’m sorry that I haven’t provided you with that entertainment. That kind of drama simply doesn’t interest me and further more, I think it is beneath both of us as rational human beings who are capable of understanding the difference between fiction and reality. I seriously considered not replying at all and simply blocking you, but I decided not to do that in the end. Because I believe in giving people the chance to prove that they can be better than their negative first impression. So I leave it up to you. If you want to discuss literature with me like a rational, polite, adult, then I’m willing to put this behind us.

But I do not suffer trolls. If you post hateful messages to me again you will be blocked. 

Have a nice day. 

[rogers-senpai]

The Analysis of the Progression of Jonerys and Why the Truth Won’t Break Them PART 3

PART 1 HERE

Why did he bend the knee? Because he saw her for what she is. Because she risked everything to save some few morons’ lives. Because he knows she is different. Because he believes in her. Her face was priceless. Bacause she knows he is not bending bacause he has to, but because he wants to. Hearing her say “I hope I deserve it” after she saved his life, lost her dragon, gave him everything he wanted, abandoning her Iron Throne mission, was amazing. Dark Dany, huh?

When she sees the way he looks at her, after he tugs at ther hand, not wanting to let go, she is almost scared, definitely shaken. Why? Doesn’t she love him? Well, while she could deal with her feelings if she knew they weren’t mutual, what can she do when she sees they are? She can’t ignore it, but should she go for it? She doesn’t know yet. When she slips his hand out of his, he is clearly dissapointed, did he misread all the signs? Rejection is a bitch. Then she ends the conversation and he awkwardly pretends to go to sleep while she leaves, clearly conflicted. He turns his head when comes out, and sighs once she is away. With the apocalypse coming, being in love, caring for someone is not good, he knows that, but what can he do?

I’ve seen it speculated that between episode 6 and 7, there was a few weeks break, which is possible. They had to return to Dragonstone, let Jon recover and Dany looks much better in the finale - she had to have had some time to mourn, probably alone. So if we think that they haven’t seen each other for so long, the scene when Jon  immediately stands up when he hears the dragons, seems much more meaningful. He is reminded again how badass she is, especially since she has just lost her child and she is as strong and confident as before.

In behind the scenes material we see that he waits for her to be seated, before taking his place himself, which we didn’t see in the episode because of the different camera angle. A sign of respect.

And then Jon makes his loyalty public, their theme playing right after. He keeps his loyalty, even though doing so meant him losing a chance for Cersei helping him and put Dany’s help under a question mark. Could she go North with Cersei waiting to take everything Dany has gained? But he does it, and he doesn’t lie either. Dany is clearly shocked and turned on by this, can you blame her?

Their talk scene was the first talk alone we were shown after the scene in which me made his feelings clear for her to see, after they realized they don’t want to fight it and you can see the difference in how they speak and behave. While anyone else would scream at him for his actions, but she tells him she respects what he did. The talk about Targaryen dynasty was the first time we saw her speak to anyone of the sad fate of her family. Jon is not only intrigued with High Valyrian, he looks interested during the talk of dragons locked up and it being the end for the Targaryens. And he tells her that her family hasn’t seen its end. All that in the context of them being the only Targaryens is so powerful. And the talk of babies again. He is the first to ever question the curse, Daario never did. And then he made her laugh, when did we last see that with any man? Was it Barristan? When did Daario make her laugh last?

When Tyrion comes back, they walk together, the same pace, which is something that happens unconciously when you are in love with someone, when you consider them your equal. They stop to stand very close to each other, despite there being so much room besides them. They are already behaving like a couple.

During the meeting, we are shown shots of people around them, Jorah, Tyrion, Grey Worm, Theon, and Davos in the background, and considering the context, it’s obvious they all know what’s going on, what “sailing together” really means. I also saw some antis question why he hadn’t made his move before the meeting with Cersei or any other time. Which is stupid. Before the meeting with Cersei, he was recovering and she was grieving and still unsure about what to do about him. Their talk scene after Tyrion goes to talk to Cersei, is the first time they’ve been alone since the boat scene for all we know. Then they go to Dragonstone, which is not a long way from King’s Landing and immediately plan to leave for Winterfell. When was he supposed to do anything? He used the first chance he got - the cruise to Winterfell, so he makes sure she is on that damn boat.

Their sex scene is sometimes hated on, as not romantic. Which is bullshit. It was short, yes. But the stares they shared before he entered the cabin and while he was closing the door? Their own theme, considered by many as the most beautuful and romantic theme playing in its entirety in the background? The way she was touching his stomach and chest? They way he was caressing her hair and face? The way Jon Snow dominated Daenerys Stormborn in the bedroom? When he licked her? The way he  sighed “yeah” after being inside fer for two seconds? The way their mouths flew open? The way they stopped, just to look at each other, gazing at each other, as if thinking that this is it, this is what they’ve been missing and searching for since the beginning?

5. WHY THE TRUTH WON’T BREAK THEM

Jon is Ned Stark’s son, antis say, he won’t be with his aunt. Well yes, Jon is Ned Stark’s son, and Ned is his father’s son. And guess who Ned’s father married and had kids with? His cousin. And the whole percentage thing some try to pull out is ridiculous. You think GRRM, who has made Targaryen sibling relationships romantic and happy, will not make Jon and Dany be together when they share less DNA than that? Also EVERY house in Westeros has married their relatives, other than siblings and parent-child so many times. Tywin “No Disgrace For The Family Name, My Kids Don’t Do Incest” Lannister married his cousin, showing that in Westeros only siblings and parent-child marriages are considered a NO NO, since when you grow up together there is a biological effect that makes it impossible to fall in love with each other if you are mentally healthy. Also Robert in additional GoT material said that maybe he shouldn’t have killed Targaryen babies, but they were still born of incest, and then he married Cersei - a product of two cousins. Incest is only mental in Westeros, they don’t care about any percentage. There was even a Stark marriage between an aunt and nephew. There would probably be more of those if aunts weren’t usually much older than nephews.

And the fact that GRRM didn’t make Jon and Dany - the last members of a house which practices incest much more than any other- grow up together, or meet each other knowing, making them not have the growing up together gross thing, says a lot. That and all their parallels and foreshadows which are in a link somewhere in the first part, the fact he said they were the point of the series?

However hard you try to say GRRM shows incest in a bad light, it is not true. He made what we consider to be incestual relationship romantic. Some of the Targaryens, Tywin and his cousin-wife and such.

If we are right, Dany is pregnant. What will make Jon turn away from her if she is? They are already in love, and with all the points I made, I’ll be sleeping calmly.

[alexiethymia]

My Thoughts On Jonsa and Jonerys

[SPOILERS ABOUND]

Jonsa shipper here; no need to explain how it came to be, I’m sure it’s the same as with everyone else. On-screen chemistry then wham-bam-slam. Funny thing is, I didn’t really ship anyone in GOT, and like almost everybody else, I thought J and D would end up together based on the title, but it really wasn’t relevant to me you know? I’m not going to make any metas. I’m not here to make some grand declaration that Jonsa will be end game since I don’t have that much faith in the show writers, and I tend to tread on the side of caution, plus I have a lot of could-have-been OTPs so my heart’s already taken a beating. But here’s the thing, I’ve probably read all of the Jonsa metas out there, as well as the spoiler leaks. These are just some of thought why I think J*nerys shouldn’t be quick to call canon so fast. I tried to be as objective as possible, but obviously bias will be present. No hate either on the ship. If they end up together I’m not going to spew fire out of my mouth, just that there are some things...

- First off, I believe boatb*ng will happen. I even believe J and D will fall in love. And (as bitter a pill as it to swallow) I’m also preparing from the Rhaegar and Lyanna parallels. However the leaks also say that Dany being barren gets brought up in this season. You think that little tidbit won’t factor in Jon’s decision to do the do with her? I’m not saying feelings won’t come into it, but you’d be in denial to say that Jon who’s always been afraid to father a bastard won’t be tempted by the prospect of no consequences (oh Jon how wrong you are; we all know this is gonna bite him back hard). 

- BUT, I don’t think it’s a cause for celebration that all of the above are happening in S7. If it had happened in S8, and S7 was more focused on subtly deepening the relationship between J and D (cough*likejonsa*cough), then as a js shipper, I would have been REALLY worried. Doing both the sparks and the fireworks in this season seems just fanservicey. WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT. A large part of the audience wants to see this fated prophetic romance between these two heroes after their parallel journeys. But then as I am aware of, D&D only came to know of the ending from GRRM recently. That’s why we got S6. Not saying that it’s proof that Jonsa is endgame, just that D&D set up the foundations for both ships to have a good chance of happening. As to which one is the ‘red herring’ remains to be seen.

- As I was saying, with the big tryst over and done with in S7, what’s left for J and D in S8 then? Them overcoming the barriers and perceptions of people around them to find their happily ever after? Please, ASOIAF isn’t a love story, as much as we shippers would like it to be. Plus they ain’t got no time for that with the Winter War now upon them. I’m curious to see where their ‘romance’ will go come S8.

- Here’s the other curious thing from the S8 ep 1 leaks. It’s SANSA who’s angry and mistrustful about Dany. It’s SANSA who asks Dany if she and Jon are now in love (SHE DOESN’T GIVE AN ANSWER EITHER WAY) and it’s SANSA whom Jon sought to bring aside and talk to about it. (How does this look like to you? Cause to me I find it very curious that it seems like Jon is placating Sansa. Why wouldn’t he talk to the whole Stark family about Dany? Why Sansa first?)

- And then as a cliffhanger for that episode, Jon finds out about his true parentage. See, where I’m getting at is no one knows what happens after Jon learns about his true parentage. No one has any leaks further than that. He’ll know Sansa is his cousin and Dany is his aunt. How will Jon feel that  he did the horizontal tango with his aunt? And if we JS shippers read those subliminal hints in S6 and S7 correctly, how would Jon deal with knowing Sansa isn’t really his sister? Will he come to see her differently? Has he already, and has he been avoiding or suppressing those feelings? 

- So with respect to shipping (aside from the whole identity crisis), it’s either going to be focused on his angst about his illicit love with his aunt and the dilemma of his love for her and the Stark values he was raised with, or him now possibly considering a viable marriage with Sansa Stark (bec. honestly it would solve all of their problems about rebuilding the North). MY POINT IS THIS: THE CURRENT LEAKS IN NO WAY SANK THE JONSA SHIP. Jonerys may be canon in future episodes, but they’re not necessarily endgame. It’s all up the air. We Jonerys and Jonsa shippers are all in the same boat, as much as some may not like it. 

- Finally, I admit that I was bit threatened (I’m being as honest as possible here) with the Rhaegar and Lyanna parallels to Jonerys, but to be fair Jonsa peeps, we got Ned and Cat. There has to be a suitable epic parallel for the two mains of the show. On the other hand, Rhaegar and Lyanna could also parallel Jon and Sansa respectively, what with the handsome prince (that Sansa once yearned fo), but without the courtly grace, in the Targaryen, Jon. And the renowned Stark beauty which caused a war in Sansa. I mean the original outline had JonArya romance, and Arya has been paralleled with Lyanna multiple times. If Sansa really is taking Arya’s place in that storyline, the parallel would be complete. 

- Finally, finally, what I’m looking for in a possible Jonsa end game isn’t really a lust-fueled, passionate encounter. I’d be happy with a semi-ambiguous ending with both Jonsa and Sansa in Winterfell and side-by-side, along with Arya and Bran, because honestly they’re the best rulers the North can have. For a lot of the antis, what they don’t understand is what attracts us shippers to SS Jonsa is not just the aesthetic or the ‘love’ story, but really how thematically both characters fit together, complete each other’s narrative, and their ending would be one eternally satisfying as it fits the overall theme of the saga (if a happy ending for the Starks is what GRMM is going for; it can all end bittersweet or a tragedy for all we know). 

- Finally, finally, finally (last one I promise), I find it laughable how the biggest ‘attack’ on the ship is that it’d be incestuous? Like, hello, do you know how many countries actually legalize marriage between first cousins? And step-siblings too? This isn’t just a medieval concept. Even my own ethnic group accepts marriage between first cousins. I bring up step-siblings because the other big ‘attack’ is that Jon and Sansa were raised as siblings, as if that were more squicky than actual blood relations (but you know it’s ok, cause they didn’t know). Um, no, Jon and Sansa may have been raised in the same house, but they weren’t raised as siblings. If that’s your definition, consider Theon as someone raised with Sansa like her sibling. But no one bats an eye at shipping the two. Jon and Sansa were raised like step-siblings at most. 

[kitten1618x]

I really don't understand people hating our ship solely based on the fact that they're cousins and they were raised believing they're siblings. Give me a break. Catelyn hated Jon from the day she found out about him and barely looked at him, and we all saw in s1 that Sansa did the same thing. They didn't grow up as brother and sister. Neither of them considered the other a sibling, not really. Idk, it's just my thoughts on the matter and I was curious to find out what you think :)

Well, I’d say the majority of those that take issue with our ship are those who hardcore ship J/D. Which makes perfect sense, because those that take the most issue with their ship, are Jonsa shippers. Really, I’m a ship and let ship kinda gal. I don’t care if you ship Jon with a Dothraki horse, just don’t bag on my ship -especially if your main argument is that my ship is incestuous, when in fact -like a HUGE chunk of ships in the GoT fandom ARE! lol

Like, unless I’m being personally singled out and attacked, I stick to my own tags, stay in my happy shipping bubble and keep myself far from fandom fuckery. I ship/ped bethyl, and we got called pedophiles, bad moms, delusional -I could go on forever, but you get the point, when the characters I shipped were both legal consenting adults with an age gap (though the older one was emotionally stunted, so there was a balance in power). People are hateful -ignore them, unless you can have a little fun with them. Nothing pisses off a troll more than being ignored (I swear, it’s true).

So -with that rant out of the way, my thoughts on Jon and Sansa’s relationship and the sibs factor? Shit. This might get long -how much time do you have? lol I’ll try to simplify …

I think there’s a very specific reason why out of all of Jon’s “siblings”, Sansa was the only one he didn’t share a “sibling” bond with. They didn’t interact -like at all. I also think there’s a very specific reason that these two were the ones to reunite first. Alone. Strangers. In soft candlelight. With Sansa wearing Jon’s clothing.

Truthfully, it makes perfect sense. Do you think they would have given Jon those scenes with Arya? The female “sibling” he “feels” actually related to? Can you see the Jonsa scenes with Arya? Huge creepy factor. Huge!

Take two people who never felt or acted like siblings -shove them together with major character development. Get them to actually start getting to know each other/make them in the romantic image the other always longed for, then slip in a scene revealing that they’re actually cousins -bingo! Jonsa! It’s a little much to be waved off as coincidental.

Factor into all of this that in GRRM’s original outline, he was planning an endgame love triangle betweenJon/Arya/Tyrion -yeah, I think it’s pretty self explanatory that Jonsa is endgame.

[jigglymoof]

Season 7 is coming to an end and I have a few thoughts about it.

Gane of thrones is a great show no doubt about it, but there are certain things that have happened in past two seasons that have kinda annoyed me.

*Spoiler* warning even though, I don’t really think it includes spoilers (you never know ;))

1. Rhaegar Targaryen, Lyanna Stark and Elia Martell.

Alright, this is a big one. Lemme get this straight.

PEOPLE NEED TO STOP ROMANTICISING RHAEGAR AND LYANNA.

Rhaegar Targaryen was a nut job. He wanted three heads of a dragon so since his wife could no longer give birth, he smoothly kidnapped a younger girl. Not only did he marry her he practically disowned his children.(when a marriage is annulled, the children become bastards) HIS OWN DAMN CHILDREN. Like Lyanna is oh so high and might as well right?

I used to really like Lyanna maybe because in the books she was compared to Arya, but had she been like Arya, she wouldn’t have allowed it. The Starks have honour, Lyanna didn’t. But I can’t really blame her, when a prince promises you the world at such an young age. You can’t help it. (Yes. Lyanna was sixteen)

And as of Elia Martell, I love her charecter. She deserved so much better. I was hoping she’d find someone else as well. It would have made more sense.

2. Dorne

Let’s admit it, when Oberyn made an appearance in season 4 he was the best and made Dorne seem like a perfect place. And if you look into it, Dorne is actually a pretty cool place to be. They are witty, diverse(salty, stony and sandy dornishmen) and open-minded and they know how to have fun (wink wink) while they also have one of the best warriors.

But through out the series (books+shows) Dorne has become Westros’ official punching bag. In the show, house Martell is practically extinct and other dornish houses are okay with it?!

Major Charecters of Dorne namely Oberyn, Elia, Arthur, Ashara have been through shit and have all died a very sad death.

And also the storyline of Dorne. What the fuck were the writers thinking. Not only did they turn Dorne into a shitty place, they completely removed charecters like Arianne and ruined the development arc of Jaime and Bronn along the way It should be -

#MakeDorneGreatAgain

Also what about Ellaria? Is she dead? what happens to Dorne next?

3. The Incest.

Incest is wrong. Period.

And GRRM proved it clearly. It was incest that caused the War of Five Kings, had Jaime and Cersei not been caught doing the deed. None of this shit would’ve gone down. Had Jaime and Cersei not banged, Jon Arryn would still be alive and this shithead Joffery wouldn’t have been born.

Similar with the Targaryens, it is obvious that it was the incestuous interbreeding that had caused them to become mad Aerys and Viserys. Rhaegar in my opinion was a mad man as well, he wasn’t hyper but he was obsessed with prophecies that would eventually lead to madness later in his life if he’d survived.

So now that we have this cleared.

STOP SHIPPING JON AND DAENERYS FFS PPL!

“Yeah but they are not siblings, he’s her nephew”

Yeah so?

It’s still Incest!

And please what’s with these ship wars? Has GoT become the a vampire diaries now?

GoT was never about “romance” it was about power play, manipulation and complex relationships between conflicted characters. And now I feel like the show runners are trying to shove down JonxDany down our throats. I always knew that when Jon and Dany would meet they would have a connection.

A platonic one. Which would make them respect each other and acknowledge the hardships they have been through. But no they got to fall in love, have sex on a boat and make magic babies yay!

No. It’s not supposed to be like that. It’s to obvious and too cliché. Jon and Dany have clashing personalities, even if they got together they wouldn’t last.

For jaime and cersei, it was always cersei who had been dominant and manipulative while Jaime had been the psychologically submissive one. That’s why it worked. But I don’t support them either and I will never support Jon and Dany, yet it may be an honest mistake since they don’t know about their ties as a family. But. That should be the show runner’s responsibility, on how they should write the characters.

3. The Lannisters

Jaime has always been my favourite character, so I had to express my concerns related to him.

WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO HIS REDEMPTION ARC?!

Why is he still with his sister, why hasn’t someone knocked sense into him, geez. Now, Tyrion Lannister. This guy seriously needs to standup against the shit that Dany is doing. Yeah don’t give me that ‘but it’s war’ crap. Ik that it’s war, but killing people just so that they accept u as your queen is just dumb. Like Tywin Lannister had said, the person who constantly establishes the fact that they are king/queen aren’t actually true rulers. And what’s with that reunion scene with him and Jaime. It was so bad, where was the angst! I mean they were so close. Oh right. Developed family relationships are not relevant anymore! Let’s add some more of that JonxDany instead. Let’s get the fangirls alll riled up. Cersei Lannister. She’s mad. Yes she’s as mad as Dany. Yes she is way more cruel. But both of them are ‘mad’ for the throne and to rise above others to rule them. Both of them have different ways of execution but their goal is the same. The pregnancy was unnecessary. And I bet she’s not going to have the baby. I have nothing else to say about Cersei. She and Qyburn make the evilest pair in westeros.

4. Azor Ahai

The prince who was promised, saviour of the realm yada yada yada. The story of Azor Ahai is pretty interesting and it is something I really want to see on the show, but at the rate at which they are shoving Jon and Dany heroism down our throats, I feel like the Azor Ahai is going to be either one of them(and if it’s not then I’ll be the happiest person in this world) because fan service has become a thing.

5. Please don’t make everyone a friggin Targaryen

Please. Just. No Two targs is all I can handle. With the theory of Tyrion being a Targaryen, it’s really annoying me. What’s so special about being a Targaryen? I hope Tyrion remains a Lannister as probably both Jaime and Cersei will die and I don’t want that house to go extinct. Tbh. I was disappointed when I got to know that Jon is a Targaryen. I was hoping that maybe just maybe he was Ashara’s kid and that’s why he’d been soo good at swordfighting but nuuuuu *insert valley girl voice* Targaryens super cool you know so we’re gonna make him one as well hahahaha.

6. Brandon Stark WTF man

Remember Bran Stark that cute kid who was pushed out of a tower by this evil blonde knight. Well it seems like he’s become a COMPLETE JERK I was so disappointed with this conversations with Meera (whom I love. Yes, I go gay for her). I mean Meera deserved so much more than that damn thank you, ugh!

7. Sansa

You go gurl *sobs happily*

So this was my rant. I have been holding back for SOOO long now here it is. Every character is well written. No hate on any of them (except you, Mary Sue, Daenerys Targaryen)

[piduai]

top 10 asoiaf relationships/dynamics?

never thought about it actually but i will now! i don’t have any ships besides daensa and they haven’t met in canon and i usually enjoy characters individually but let’s give it a shot.

1. sansa & lady, however short-lived that relationship was. “Lady,” he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.”it is implied that all the stark children are wargs, and they have a special bond to their wolves. it’s especially obvious in bran and jon’s case because they’re the only povs with their wolves alive and nearby, but the strong bond between robb and grey wind and rickon and shaggydog suggests that, as well as the wolf dreams arya has while being half a world away from nymeria. sansa, though. her wolf, a literal part of her soul, was murdered. and that in what, the 4th or 5th chapter? sansa’s suffering started THAT early. i think that because lady was killed sansa’s abilities as a warg died with her, which singles her out from her own family. i’ve always found lady’s death the saddest in the whole story.

2. sansa & arya because i’m basic like this. grrm said that he created sansa specifically to be arya’s foil and them being the opposite of each other is brought up in the narrative a good couple of time, and who am i to say that it doesn’t work. arya is shown to be extremely extroverted, empathetic and brass, while sansa falls on the low empathy side and is rather introverted and introspective in her povs, besides her impeccable manners. when i read arya’s povs, i read about her story and surrounding. when i read sansa’s povs, i read about sansa. “when the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives”, ned tells arya, who is then obsessed with the idea of finding her “pack”, while sansa is left to tend to herself after ned’s decapitation, being resilient as a lone wolf and surviving. the times they think about each other in their povs are truly touching as well, “she wanted king’s landing to drown, but sansa was there”, “she dreamed that she had a daughter that looked a little like arya”, “a thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes”. they sometimes remember each other with such melancholy.

3. sansa & cersei, “you are stronger than you seem. i expect you’ll survive a little humiliation. i did”“Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted her his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father’s head. Sansa would never make that mistake again.”“I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son.”  i think cersei resents sansa from the very beginning even though she has made good use of her. she’s genuinely disgusted by her innocence and naivete, and i think she both sees her own younger self in her, which she hates, and competition - the book IS written by a man after all, and they always think that all women are at odds with each other. first of all she resents her based on the prophecy that has been consuming cersei since she was sansa’s age, and she hates sansa for being “younger and more beautiful” and the potential “to tear everything she holds dear and take her place”. then another reason is joffrey. cersei is bound to hate any prospective betrothal to her children, because she’s a narcissist and she thinks of her children as continuation of herself - and narcissists don’t take well at anyone trying to take away their narcissistic supply. then she’s also a narcissistic parent (it’s another thing from narcissism per se), and joffrey is her favorite child, so it’s natural that she would hate his bride-to-be. we don’t have any introspection into cersei’s mind when sansa was still betrothed to joffrey, but i wager she held the same distaste towards her that she holds against margaery in her actual povs.

sansa on the other hand, initially of course, loves cersei, adores cersei and is desperate for her approval and her company she considers the highest honor. of course later she grows a healthy fear and disgust towards cersei but their interactions, scarce as they are, are always a delight to read. i find it funny that sansa has been deeply traumatized by cersei’s actions, while cersei thinks that she’s done sansa nothing but good. the PERSPECTIVE of all of that is just hilarious.

4. cersei & margaery, i think it’s supposed to mirror the previous one but margaery is made of an ENTIRELY different cloth than sansa. unlike sansa she was clearly prepared to come into the nest of snakes that is king’s landing and was plainly trained for it, becoming a huge snake herself. margaery is fake through and through, reason for which i love her, and, unlike sansa, who doesn’t have any protection at court and is a war prisoner, is surrounded by her people so cersei can’t do her any harm. besides she’s the actual threat that cersei thinks as “younger and more beautiful” tho i think margaery will not have a kind fate. in the chapter where she’s imprisoned and cersei comes to visit her, margaery shows her true colors for the first and only time: “will you make me call my gaolers and have you dragged away, you vile, scheming, evil bitch?”.

cersei and margaery are both intelligent and cunning but in different ways and they can’t stand each other and it’s somehow delightful to follow.

5. cersei & jaime, it was actually the reason i started watching the show in 2013 and swiftly changed to the books, saw a meme on 9gag that was like “can have any woman in seven kingdoms - fucks his own sister” over a pic of jaime and i got curious. i generally find twincest boring and tasteless but it never fails to intrigue me. a couple of years ago there was a huge ass post with thousands of notes that highlighted some moments from the books and the op was like “besides the incestuous side, cersei and jaime are the healthiest romantic relationship in the story” and i laughed out LOUD because BOY was that person wrong. their relationship is of consuming each other, hating each other,hurting each other, loving each other, lying to each other, idolizing each other, demonizing each other. it’s as unhealthy and toxic as it can get.

6. tywin & all his children, it’s hilarious how he managed to fuck up all of his kids in entirely different ways. all three of them idolize him and demonize him simultaneously, and none of them he has ever loved, using them, lying to them, dismissing their existence as it goes. he’s obsessed with the reputation of his house but he’s utterly ruthless and neglectful towards his family, which cracks me up.

7. brienne and podrick, they’re both awkward yet underestimated teenagers who have no idea what to do with themselves. the sense of camaraderie and bonding they share based on this is funny. pod is the only man brienne has shown to trust throughout her journey, and was worried for him when they got abducted.

8. ramsay and theon, theon deserved all that came upon him and imo ramsay was merciful on him, if i was him i’d skin theon’s face and take out an eye just for sport.

9. jon connington and rhaegar, i have a soft spot for a character remaining faithful to their dead lover years and years later. everything connington does he does out of love for rhaegar, and i can respect that. actually this is the only aspect for the other jon for me as well, the way he thinks about ygritte now and then is somehow touching.

10. varys and littlefinger, i’m sure varys can read littlefinger for shit, and while littlefinger does have his info on varys i’m sure it doesn’t cover even a quarter. who is varys? where do his loyalties lie? what are his goals? with littlefinger every question has an answer, varys though… but the two of them, plus doran martell, are the main players in the game so it’s interesting how things go under the covers.

also dany & missandei! it’s really sweet