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gingermintpepper · 5 days

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As usual I read your tags always and so you said Apollo did not ask for resurrection of Asclepius and Hyacinthus so i just wanted to share this. About Asclepius death I read it on theoi.com, that earlier authors don't make him resurrect as a god but that's a later development mentioned only by Roman authors like Cicero, Hyginus and Ovid. But still Apollo has a role in Ovid's version

Ovid, Fasti 6. 735 ff (trans.Boyle) (Roman poetry C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) : Clymenus [Haides] and Clotho resent the threads of life respun and death's royal rights diminished. Jove [Zeus] feared the precedent and aimed his thunderbolt at the man who employed excessive art. Phoebus [Apollon], you whined. He is a god; smile at your father, who, for your sake, undoes his prohibitions [i.e. when he obtains immortality for Asklepios].

So here it is actually because of Apollo the decision was taken to resurrect him as god. And with Hyacinthus, I don't think I've read about Artemis playing the primary role. I know in Sparta there was a picture of Artemis, Athena and Aphrodite carrying Hyacinthus and his sister to heaven.

This is not on theoi.com but I saw on Tumblr it's from Dionysiaca by Nonnus

Second, my lord Oiagros wove a winding lay, as the father of Orpheus who has the Muse his boon companion. Only a couple of verses he sang, a ditty of Phoibos, clearspoken in few words after some Amyclaian style: Apollo brought to life again his longhaired Hyacinthos: Staphylos will be made to live for aye by Dionysos.

So since he is singing inspired by amyclean stories it probably means in that place it was believed Apollo was the one to bring back his lover to life.

Apollo as god of order was very important so i think it shows how special these people (and admetus too) were to him that he decided to go against the order for them 🥺

ANON!! Shakes you like a bottle of ramune!! BELOVED ANON!!!!! I'm littering your face with kisses, I'm anointing you with olive oil and honey - you absolutely made my night with this because, not only did I get the pure serotonin shot of having someone interact with my tags (yippee, wahoo!!) I also got to have that wonderful feeling of "oh wow, have I misunderstood something that was integral to my understanding of this myth/figure this whole time or is this a case of interpretational differences?" which is imo vital for my aims and interests as someone who enjoys mythological content and literature.

I'll preface my response with this: Hyacinthus is by far the hardest of these to get accounts for because his revival itself, as you very astutely point out, is generally accounted for in painting/ritual format which muddies the waters on who interceded for what. I wasn't actually familiar with that passage from the Argonautica - and certainly didn't remember it so thank you very much for bringing it to my attention!

That said, what I've come to understand, both about Hyacinthus and about Asclepius is that in the accounts of their deaths, Apollo's position is startlingly clear.

For Hyacinthus, it is established time and again that Apollo would have sacrificed everything for him - his status, his power, his very own immortality and divinity. Ovid writes that Apollo would have installed him as a god if only he had the time:

(Ovid. Metamorphoses. Book X. trans. Johnston)

Many other writers too speak of how Apollo abandoned his lyre and his seat at Delphi to spend his days with Hyacinthus, but they also all agree that when it came to his death - he was powerless. Ovid gives that graphic account of Apollo's desperation as he tries all his healing arts to save him to no avail:

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book X. Apollo me boy, methinks him dead. trans Johnston)

Bion, in one of his fragments, writes that Apollo was "dumb" upon seeing Hyacinthus' agony:

(Bion, The Bucolic Poets. Fragment XI. trans Edmonds)

Even Nonnus in the Dionysiaca speaks constantly of Apollo's helplessness in the face of Hyacinthus' fate where he writes that the god still shivers if a westward wind blows upon an iris:

and when Zephyros breathed through the flowery garden, Apollo turned a quick eye upon his young darling, his yearning never satisfied; if he saw the plant beaten by the breezes, he remembered the quoit, and trembled for fear the wind, so jealous once about the boy, might hate him even in a leaf...

(Nonnus, Dionysiaca, Book 3. trans Rouse)

And the point here is just that - Apollo, at least as far as I've read, cannot avert someone's death. He simply can't. Once they're already dead - once Fate has cut their string - all Apollo's power is gone and he can do nothing no matter how much he wants to. And this is, as far as I know, supported with the accounts of Asclepius as well!

Since you specifically brought up Ovid's account, I'll also stick only to Ovid's account but in Metamorphoses when we get Ovid's version of Coronis' demise, he writes that Apollo intensely and immediately regrets slaughtering Coronis. He regrets it so intensely that he, like he does with Hyacinthus, does his best to resuscitate her:

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book Two. Apollo's regret)

And like Hyacinthus, when it becomes clear that what has happened cannot be undone, Apollo wails:

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book Two. Apollo wept.)

Unlike his mother, Asclepius in her womb had not yet died and so, with the last of Apollo's strength, he does manage, at least, to save him.

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book Two. Apollo puts the 'tearing out' in Asclepius.)

But it goes further than even that because Ocyrhoe, Chiron's daughter, a prophetess who unduly gained the ability to directly proclaim the secrets of the Fates, upon seeing the baby Asclepius, immediately prophesies his glory, his inevitable death and then his fated ascension:

(Ovid. Metamorphoses, Book Two. Ocyrhoe's prophecy. trans Johnston)

Before she too succumbs to her hubris and is transformed by the Fates into a horse so she can no longer speak secrets that aren't hers to share.

These things ultimately are important because it establishes two very important things: 1) Apollo can't do anything in the face of the ultimate Fate of mortals, which is, of course, death and 2) even when Apollo is Actively Devastated, regretful, yearning, mournful, guilty or some unholy combination of all of the above, when someone is dead, he accepts that they are gone. Even if he is devastated by it, even if he'll cry all the rest of his days about it - if they're dead? Apollo lets them go. In Fasti, when Zeus brings Asclepius back, he does not say Apollo asked him to - Zeus, or well, in this case Jove, brings Asclepius back because he wants Apollo to stop being mad at him.

(Ovid, Fasti VI. Apollo please come home your father misses you. trans. A.S Kline)

Even Boyle's translation which you used above in your findings hints that Zeus made Asclepius a god because he wanted Apollo to stop grieving. (i.e 'smile at your father', 'for your sake [he] undoes his prohibitions')

And like, Apollo was deeply upset by Asclepius' death - apart from killing the Cyclops in anger, in book 4 of the Argonautica, Apollonius writes that the Celts believe the stream of Eridanus to be the tears Apollo shed over the death of Asclepius when he left for Hyperborea after being chastised by Zeus for killing his Cyclops:

But the Celts have attached this story to them, that these are the tears of Leto's son, Apollo, that are borne along by the eddies, the countless tears that he shed aforetime when he came to the sacred race of the Hyperboreans and left shining heaven at the chiding of his father, being in wrath concerning his son whom divine Coronis bare in bright Lacereia at the mouth of Amyrus.

It all paints a very clear picture to me. Apollo did not ask for either of them to be brought back. Though bringing them back certainly pleased and delighted him, they are actions of other gods who are moved by Apollo's grief and mourning and seek to mollify him. Him not asking doesn't mean he didn't want them back which I think is a very important distinction by the by, but it simply means that Apollo knows the natural order of things and, even if it hurts, he isn't going to press his luck about it.

Which, of course, brings us to Admetus. And I'm really not going to overcomplicate this, Admetus is different because, very vitally, Admetus is not dead. Apollo can't do a thing once Fate has been carried out and Death has claimed a mortal but you know what he absolutely can do? Bargain like hell with the Fates before that point of inevitability. And that's what he does, ultimately for Admetus and Alcestis. He sought to prolong Admetus' life, not revive him from death or absolve him from death altogether and even after getting the Fates drunk, he's still only able to organise a sacrifice - a life for a life - something completely contingent on whether some other mortal would be willing to die in Admetus' place and not at all controllable by Apollo's own power.

All of these things, I think come back to that point you made - that Apollo's place as a god of order is very important and therefore these people are very special to him if it means he's willing to go against that order but, I also wish to challenge that opinion if you'd let me. Apollo's place as a god of order is very important and therefore, I would argue, that it is even more important that it is shown that he does not break the divine order, especially for the people that mean the most to him. The original context of my comments which started this conversation were on this lovely, lovely post by @hyacinthusmemorial which contemplated upon Asclepius from the perspective of an Emergency Medical personnel and included, in their tags, the very poignant lines "there's something about Apollo letting go when Asclepius couldn't that eats my heart away" and "you do what you can, you do your best, but you don't ever reach too far" and I think that's perfectly embodied with the Apollo-Asclepius dichotomy. Apollo grieves. He wails, he cries, he does his best each and every time to save that which is precious to him but he does not curse their nature, he does not resent that they are human and ultimately, he accepts that that which is mortal must inevitably die. There is nothing that so saliently proves that those who uphold rules are also their most staunch followers - if Apollo wants to delight in his place as Fate's mouthpiece, he cannot undo Fate. And, if even the god of healing and order himself cannot undo death, what right does Asclepius, mortal as he is, talented as he is, have to disrespect it?

The beauty of these stories isn't that Apollo loved them enough to bring them back. The beauty is that Apollo loved them enough to let them go.

#this is such a long ass post oh my god #ginger answers asks #This totally got away from me but I AM PASSIONATE ABOUT THIS AAAA #Anon beloved anon I hope you don't take this as me shutting you down or anything because that really isn't what I'm trying to do #I'm definitely going to dig more into the exactness of 'who petitioned for Hyacinthus to be revived actually?"#I always stuck to the belief that it was Artemis because of the depictions of his revival + his procession is usually devoid of Apollo #I know some renaissance paintings have him and Apollo reuniting but that's usually In The Heavens y'know #I genuinely couldn't think of any accounts that have Apollo Asking for anyone to be revived #Apollo does intercede sometimes but that's usually for immortals like Prometheus #Or even when he's left to preside over Zagreus' revival and repair in orphic tradition #Concerning Asclepius there's like a ton to talk about tbh #There's the fact that in some writings (in quite a lot actually) the reason Asclepius was killed wasn't necessarily that he brought someone #back - it was that he accepted money for it #Pindar wrote about it and Plato talks about how if Asclepius really did accept gold for a miracle then he was never a son of Apollo #It's a whole thing really #I think it's very important that it's Asclepius in his mortal folly that tests the boundaries of life and death tbh #The romanticisation of going to any length to bring back a loved one is nice and all #But sometimes the kindest and most lovely thing you can do for someone is to accept it #Just accept that they're gone - accept that there was nothing that could be done and even if the grief is heavy - keep living #Maybe we won't all get our lost loves back #But there are definitely always more people worth loving if you just live long enough to find them #apollo #asclepius #zeus #admetus #greek mythology #ovid #oh my god so much ovid #hyacinthus #coronis

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suntails · 11 hours

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there's just a little over a week to preorder the sleeping silver artbook!! 💛⚔️

if anyone has any questions, i'm always happy to answer! :D thank u all again for so much support thus far, couldn't do this without u!!! WORLDWIDE ORDERS UK ORDERS

#last call!!! i won't be ordering a ton of extras and i'll never print another run so get it while it's hot babey #i've gotten a few questions in DMs and i'm happy to answer any if the question isnt answered above!!#but yes. silver nation is going strong. we're right around 60 orders im blown away im floored. lil ol silver nation coming thru!!!!!#twst silver #twisted wonderland #twst #yes im using the tags. the world should know abt him

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carouselunique · 2 months

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Is it true that there's no animosity between you and... you know, you know who. You never talk about her in any way. I guess I'm curious. You guys seemed like really close friends and then just weren't friends at all. And there was some stuff she said that seemed very targeted at you...

I don't know if she feels any animosity toward me or not any more. Our mutual friends have said she doesn't and I take them on their word in that regard, assuming that if they have an answer for me it's because they're aware how she feels. I wouldn't know and it's not my place to put words in her mouth.

I haven't spoken to her/about her in a long time and the only time she even crosses my mind is when people bring her up to me. As for me feeling any animosity? I'll admit my feelings on her these days are complicated and way too nuance-core for people who aren't my friends to hear about but I wouldn't call them animosity in any way. I inherently want people my friends care about to live well because I care about my friends, and anyone my friends care about by proxy and I still share friends with her. I would never wish ill on people my friends care about so animosity doesn't fit into that by definition. I'd say I'm hurt more than anything and even then I've worked through a lot of it with trusted friends who have helped me deal with my emotions in a healthy way.

(Besides, my own life struggles keep me from even being able to invest time into animosity. I have to expend that energy loving my family, doing my best to support them during our struggles. And I've never been a hateful person it isn't in me. I would rather play 'Hot To Go' by Chappell Roan and teach my dad how to do the hand gestures to help him strengthen his muscles again than focus on hating anyone...)

I try not to think about her because it hurts. I often think that people forget that I'm a real person outside of her sphere, and that I wouldn't want to talk about what happened because I truly did consider her a friend for a long time. And when someone I consider a friend appears to not regard me with care any more suddenly and I don't even have closure on that... well... it hurts... A lot. Of course I never talk about it.

And I'm not stupid, I have seen some stuff she's said that I've gathered was about me. I remind myself that she has a right to vent in her own spaces and I truly mean that... it's just a shame that her own spaces have people who then have taken these things to me to show me (after all, I wouldn't have even seen these things myself if not for third-party anons going 'this u?') saying it is my own fault because I was a terribly cruel friend or my own fault for not listening to warnings about her when I had the chance and that makes me a stupid gullible bitch. You lot haven't seen some of the awful shit about me from some of her more ravenous fans and haters I've seen over the years that I've had to let roll off my back in the fear it would bring backlash - not even to me, to her. I don't want to be the cause of any hatred going to anyone.

Also I'm just not going to ever talk about the details of our fallen friendship or our fallen relationship. That's private. She might be a public person to some extent but I never was, even if I do gain some measure of small fandom for my work one day I'm just private about personal matters especially raw ones. I almost deleted this ask entirely but Idk I never stated that it bothers me when people talk to me about her from my own mouth, so I guess that's what this ramble is.

If you send me anything about Lily Orchard it will not be addressed. I am not a part of her life not even through our mutual friends. I do not know or care what's going on with her public/personal life. I haven't kept up. I will never keep up. Don't treat me as an extension of the situation because I am not in the situation. In the most plainly stated sense of the word: Leave me the Hell alone. (...pretty please.)

All I've wanted this entire time was to be left alone to process everything in a healthy, peaceful way. I'm workin' on it.

#not art #I don't think I need a tag for asks of this nature since I'm never going to be speaking to any of this again #but it doesn't fit in with my normal asks so:#Mad as a Bag of Cats #There that's a specific tag to blacklist even though I'm not a personal drama ask answerer very often...#let's not even get into the slurs I received or the insulting things about my mother people have asked me about or the -#insulting and nasty insults about how I deserved to lose her as a friend or deserved to be hurt because I didn't listen #because if I vented how fucking shitty people who don't know me have treated me since the day I met her we'd be here all day #and let me be clear whatever else: Lily is not responsible for ANYONE being this way whether they defend or condemn her you all decided to #send those things and you know who you are - I've also seen people on both sides say to leave me alone #and genuinely for just that thank you this is genuinely some of the most distressing online experiences I've ever had #so please leave me alone.#about this subject I mean - if you wanna be nice and talk about my art or me I'm happy to engage #if you're nice to me this isn't for you #edit: even to the nice people who tried to send me well wishes now - If you send me anything about Lily Orchard it will not be addressed.#it just feeds the whole thing if I answer those too #you can send if you want to be nice I get that impulse but I won't be answering them

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letmetellyouaboutmyfeels · 4 months

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now that the season has wrapped do you have any thoughts on buddie and whether it's happening or not. i do recall you made a post before the season started if all this buddie promotion before the season started wasn't leading to buddie then it would be cruel. for the record i do still very much believe this is all leading to buddie endgame but just curious to hear your thoughts if possible now that the season has ended. Hope you have a lovely day.

Back at the end of season three, I expressed the opinion that season four was going to be the "shit or get off the pot" moment for Buddie. The event horizon, if you will.

Given that we now know they attempted to make Buddie canon at the end of season four with the shooting/using the shooting to go into season five with Buddie becoming canon there, I think I can safely say my prediction/analysis was correct. The studio stopped them, the story line was stalled, and now we're here.

Many people have noted that season seven feels in certain ways like a reboot for Buck and Eddie. Eddie is going through a dark period similar to season five, he's heavily paralleled with Bobby who is going through it as well, and Buck is bi (as Oliver Stark said something they tried to do in season four). So while I would've loved Buddie canon this season, I can see why they wouldn't want to rush things and would want to retread some ground first to properly lay foundations.

However, while I know everyone's chanting "slow burn! slow burn! slow burn!" we already... kinda got everything for a slow burn that we'd want? The only thing we could do is have confessions of feelings to a third party and then mutual pining but really I feel like you could view them as having done that mutual pining and so on already?

I personally feel that season eight is the new event horizon. The shit or get off the pot season. If it doesn't happen by then, then others I'm sure will continue to be hopeful or even certain of Buddie canon, but I personally won't be. There's only so long you can drag something out before even if it does become canon, it's unsatisfying.

To be clear, I don't think Buddie isn't happening. I think ABC wants it, and I think the majority of the cast and crew want it, but it ain't over 'til it's over and so I don't want to say "yes Buddie is FOR SURE happening 100% I have zero doubts." I think it's highly likely that we'll get Buddie canon, I certainly hope we do, I think it's the only thing that makes sense for the characters - I'm just saying that we're quickly approaching once again the point where you have to either make it canon, or we're not going to get it.

So those are my thoughts. Hopefulness tempered with my usual anxiety, and a statement of fact. I hope we'll get Buddie canon, but whether we do or not, season eight is the moment I feel we'll know. I personally probably won't be holding out hope if it doesn't happen next season, but that's just me and my own analysis! Do not let me stop you from your own hopes and dreams!

#lincoln answers things #buddie4life90 #911 spec #I'm not going to answer any more questions about this #I debated answering this ask privately #but I'd like to make one public post so that people know my thoughts so I won't get a ton more asks about it and repeat myself #I hope I was able to answer to your satisfaction dear!

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mel-loly · 5 months

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@vanetheglitchfox

-Hey, Vane! Hru??

Here you go the drawing I promised you:

(↑ second art: by @vanetheglitchfox)

It's very simple.. But at least it's there as promised! I hope you like it ^^💛

#ARE YOU SEEING NOW WHAT THOSE WHO RESPOND TO ME GET!?!!?#whoever answers me gets an art from me and.. not that it's very “incredible” but... AT LEAST THEY GET SOMETHING!#like- come on. I know that sometimes you may be lazy.. ashamed... but sometimes respond/answer/comment to at least one of my posts.#It makes a big difference! it also makes me very happy..#and it literally makes me continue with something even though I've already lost hope.#I come back happier knowing that there are people who care. yk?#(and yeah... I know saying this won't do any good. but.. I still wanted to try...)#vanetheglitchfox #vane #my friend oc #my friend <3 #i'm mel and this is my blog✌️#my art blog #art #my art #my art <3 #art mel #my art style #art for a friend

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fredwkong · 1 year

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Where are your stories? We miss you!😭

(this post will be OOC. If you don't want to see posts like this, block the tag "ooc post")

Aww, thanks! What a good boy <3

There are a few reasons that I haven't posted for a few days. The first is that I posted every day for over 2 weeks and exhausted my horniness for now. It'll be back soon, don't worry.

The other reason is that I have a big writing assignment due in a few weeks in my non-tf life (who can say if it's my real life?). By mid-August, that will be mostly done and I will be back to looking for a job and transforming horny boys for fun. I might come back briefly before then if I get ahead and feel inspired to write some stories.

I won't say exactly when I'll be back to posting regularly, but if you're all very good boys and I have 1000 followers by the time I come back, I'll make sure I do something extra special to celebrate ;)

Have a hot summer <3

#ooc post #answered ask #if you know of any remote writing-related jobs i can apply to send me a link in my pms :P #i'm good at it as you can see #not a story #updates #i won't be answering prompts until i feel inspired again #because i want to make sure you all get transformed in the sexiest ways possible <3 #keep asking if you have fun ideas though!#all fwkong

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spookythesillyfella · 21 days

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What are Sketch and Tracey's favourite activities to do with each other?

this is their favourite – and frankly only – activity

#thanks again for the submission . my beloved #i love you so much mwah #my art #asks #my asks #answered asks #my inbox #dhmis #dhmis art #dhmis au #high voltage au #dhmis sketchbook #dhmis hv sketchbook #dhmis electracey #dhmis hv electracey #phew #alright . now that that's outta the way #vent in tags moment !!!!#im so burnt out omfg i hate this so much #i want to do so many things right this instant because school starts in a week and i KNOW i won't have time for my favourite things anymore #“oh ?? you want to draw ??? animate ??? write ??? no . you get to go to the torture facility for a year instead !! –#– that'll show you for having healthy coping mechanisms and hobbies !!“#and also like it will amplify my paranoid thoughts by tenfold . i can already tell #the worst part is that i can NEVER express my thoughts properly – any time i try to send messages to someone and ask for help . i delete –#– them before they even get read #i can't even bring myself to blog about these outright because i hate the idea of being seen as an individual with thoughts and emotions –#– instead of an entity that just does creative things and feeds people content . i hate being a “person” so i try my hardest not to be that #i wish i was an abstract concept that can always be left up to interpretation by my peers and i mean it #anywhosies . ignore my rant lol #just me being edgy X3

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dragonsasastronauts · 3 months

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Side note, if you have read only one of the books, just select the "has read" option. It's honestly not a big deal, though. I just included reading/not reading the books because I thought it would be interesting to see if that impacts anything at all.

Also also, for those of you who have Alistair marry Anora, but also have your Warden become his mistress, please just pick the mistress Warden choice. I only get to put 12 answers here, I am so sorry 😞

#this is just for fun and I wish I could just see the Dragon Age keep stats for all players' loaded world states #want to make some more dragon age world state related polls... which won't be as convoluted as this one lol #I know not a lot of people read the books so this probably won't be very telling but that's okay #also I hope this doesn't come off as me judging anyone who hasn't read the books because honestly I don't care either way #if you read them great! if not also great! I just want to see how y'all feel about Alistair's endings #I know it's not exactly fair to compare the mistress/queen cousland results with the rest of them #since only romancers would pick those but both non-romancers and romancers can pick the other endings #anyways pls vote so I can get a good amount of results to get a better feel of the community #even though I know this is not formal in any way lol #and yes I combined the drunk and executed choices #wasn't trying to be biased here but again only 12 answers and honestly can't imagine many let him be executed if Loghain lives #but that is also a biased assumption oops #honestly loving all of the dragon age polls right now #to be transparent I am 100% biased and I do believe that the books could sway peoples opinions... just not sure which way #dragon age poll #dragon age #alistair theirin #dragon age origins #dao

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blackswallowtailbutterfly · 2 months

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Still haven't messaged my mom back. And I don't think I'm going to.

#you know how they say time makes you look on the past with nostalgia and that's why elderly people think so fondly of past decades? not me #there are moments I look back on with nostalgia sure but the overwhelming feeling of looking back on my childhood is just whatever I do #wherever I go whatever happens that will not be my life again. my memory is long I made a promise to myself I intend to keep I don't forget #support you having your grandkids if their mother is deemed unfit yes. take the older two myself if it comes to it yes. move provinces to #live with you to look after the five of them together where you would be my only adult connection and there's a language barrier and I have #no work history and I'd be between five hours and nine hours away from any other connection I have answer's an absolute fucking no. I've #seen how you are with my sister how you were with my brother. who do you think they call when they've had enough of you? do you not #remember most of the beatings I took was because I was standing between you and my brother? of course not because according to you you #never did beat me but if you think I'm not aware that would turn on me again the second I'm no longer distant and just visiting if you #think you'd find nothing to complain about because you've built up this golden child ideal of me in your head and want to forget how it was #when I was actually in your care you are very very wrong. I remember. I know that inconveniences a lot of people who want to forget #unpleasant things about themselves. me too to be honest I have memories I wish I could erase but I can't especially with regard to my #sister. I defended my brother but not her. not enough. and it's probably why I give so much to her now more than I should because it's #enabling but it is what it is I guess. I won't use my memories against anyone just for the sake of it but I absolutely fucking will #to protect myself or others. you want a redemption arc without admitting to anything? keep being patient and kind towards #your grandchildren even if you end up having to take them and if you can't do it for all five of them then accept that it's better for the #older two to be with me. that's it. those are your options: the older two are with me so you only have to look after the younger three or #you need to buckle down and learn from your past mistakes to look after the five of them and all that is *if it even comes to that* which #as things are it's not in danger of that! it was a regular fucking visit to monitor the situation that's all; they're not getting taken #literally every time she freaks out about something it's a 50/50 chance it's actually something or she's invented a completely #twisted version of events

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dirtytransmasc · 1 year

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Are yyou team green or black? And why?

team green, though I'm not in support of every green character (namely Otto though my opinion of him is complicated. I also have opinions on Aegon and his characterization that makes it even more complicated)

[I have only read bits and pieces of the book, so my opinion is based almost solely on the show. keep this in mind]

I'm team green for 3 big reasons. they're more complex, thought not perfect by any means, more morally "right", and are simply more my vibe when it comes to characters. now this is very simplified and not at all nuanced, so stick with me for a minute.

Firstly, they're more complex. the greens have very deep, detailed, and nuanced lives and stories that lead to them being very complex characters that can't be put into a box. Alicent was a child bride who had lost her mother young became a mother young and suffered at the hands of power and men all her life. her children were affected by this and the world they were forced to grow up in throughout their lives. even individually her kids are drastically different; aegon the child who was forced into a life he did not want and suffered due to his father neglect and mother pain. Helaena who was never understood and grew up treated like an oddity. Aemond who was never seen to his full potential, always ignored or looked over, angry throughout his life. each of them has strengths and weaknesses, flaws and benefits, they're imperfect but never completely horrid. they're also never simplified (not entirely, even when the plot and writers seek to simplify them) to the point that they put on a moral pedestal or made straight evil (i'd even argue that the attempts of the writer to oversimplify them as evil and in the wrong makes them 10x more fascinating). I find TB characters tended to miss the mark on that, always put in the moral light, not even allowed a moment to reflect on their actions, lives, or positions in any nuanced or meaningful way, so they always just feel dull. they're also out on a moral highground that they can never be budged from, which makes them harder to like and honestly, really boring. they get away with everything instead of being emotionally and morally nuanced.

secondly, they're more morally "right". I will never say that any of the greens are perfect, they are far from it (with the exception of Helaena and her kids, who have done literally nothing to anyone, but I digress). what I will say, 9/10 times there is some level of reasoning that has some level of reasoning. Alicent always tries to do whats best for everyone, all throughout the series she tried to do best by the court, the king, her children, the realm, and Rhaenyra. did she always succeed? no, but she always tried and her mistakes were almost always honest. I will say she held resentment towards Rhaenya, but honestly, I can't blame her. Rhaenyra's lies and behavior hurt Alicent over and over again so for her to be angry is expected.when it came to succession, Alicent backed Rhaenyra until it was made clear she and Daemon would be a threat to her children's lives and even than she held mercy for Rhaenyra. Aegon's drinking can be blamed on the abuse and neglect he suffered at Viserys, Otto, and Alicent's (though the abuse and neglect from his mother is insanely different and nuanced. she perpetuated her pain onto him because she couldn't heal herself. so I hesitate to call it abuse, cause its so much more complicated than that) hands. though nothing will justify his rape of Dyana, I personally think it was a bad add in on the writers part, and leave it at that. Aemonds rage after years of being ignored doesn't entirely justify what he did to luke, but he had reason for his cruelty after years of Luke (and jace tbh) being cruel just because they could. TB characters tend to do terrible things in response to either A. nothing B. their own terrible things. Daemon kills who he wants when he feels like it, even for stating facts. Rhaneyra will lie and hurt those around her to protect her bastard children. both of them conspire to protect themselves and allow themselves to be wed, really just cause. while there are times they have their reasons, its a lot less of the time, and typically the backing to their actions, is they were trying to unbury themselves from within their own graves. (to preface, I don't care about rhaenyra sleeping around, it doesn't bother me, but its the fact that she will hurt everyone around her to protect her lies, allowing a child to be maimed and people to be murdered)

thirdly, they're my vibe. I like morally complex character, who are, to be frank, pathetic. I like characters with complex trauma's and issues, who aren't perfect people but its not entirely their fault. I would much rather watch a whole show about alicent, a child bride who tries so hard to be a good wife, queen, and mother while not prepared for any such role. Aegon who is a boy with severe mommy and daddy issues, a drinking problem, a flawed past, and constantly wet eyes. Helaena an ignored girl who has suffered for no better reason then her family. and Aemond, a boy who was tormented, bullied, maimed, and made stronger by it at the cost of his compassion and emotional stability - over a nepo baby who was coddled by her father, her murderous husband with a knack for unneeded violence, and her similarly coddled children (the show boiled them down to this, in my opinion). one is simply more up my alley than the other. I want character that need to be dissected, who have suffered, who hurt me to look at.

also, team black created almost all of their own problems. seeing as the main source of contention had to do with Rhaenyra's kids being bastards, which was Rhaenyra's problem, which she caused, and kept digging and digging that grave (faking Laenors death just so she could marry daemon, turning the blame on aemond when luke maimed him furthering the divide amongst the house, trying to wed Helaena to Jace putting her in danger, trying to take the driftmark throne and killing Vaemond for a claim her sons did not have, etc,) till viserys's death, earns her a lot less pity from me. at the end of the day, her being a woman was only a needle in a haystack worth of problems she caused herself that hurt her claim. if she had just strived to create to connection with ancient and her kids, and didn't make herself look like a threat to everyone who lessened her claim (which alicents kids would be the first people to be taken out) alicent would have backed like she had all season and there would have been no war, maybe conflict, but no war.

theres also the effect of the fans on my opinion. I have faced more cruelty, terrible media analysis, and outright ableism/misogny/(blood and sexual based) purist ideology/etc. from the TB fans then I have ever witness by TG fans. TB fans have ruined almost all of the TB characters for me in more ways than I can count, so I will say I am very biased.

thats why I'm team green. as a whole they are simply more appealing, their stories are more interesting, demand more attention to detail and emotional understanding, and from my point of view were the "right" side to be on in the war (the war was wrong on both sides, but my chips lie in the favour of the greens).

#THESE ARE ALL MY OPINIONS IF YOU DONT LIKE IT IGNORE THIS POST. MY ACCOUNT. MY EXISTENCE AS A WHOLE.#BETTER YET. IF YOU REALLY DONT LIKE MY OPINION. BLOCK ME.#I dont want drama. so dont bother me if you disagree #and to clarify discourse and conversation (even if we disagree) =/= arguing. name calling. harassment #if you can be constructive and respectful even while disagreeing your fine to stay #(the fact I have to clarify this in this fandom is embarrassing...)#defintly could have gone more in depth and better explained some things #but I'm tired and know if I don't answer this now I won't ever cause I'm a chronic procrastinator #so this is the best y'all are getting #the pity I have for all of them compared to any of the TB fans is honest to god my entire reasoning #but so many people don't understand them at all so I can't just say that #and I say this as someone who on my first watch was swayed by the intentional moral framing to hate the Greens and support the Blacks #with my whole chest. but I've grown and reflected and rewatched the show and realized I was wrong.#so I've been on both sides of the argument #I know what I'm taking about #pro team green #pro alicent hightower #I'm damn near anti TB/Rhaenyra #but I say lukewarm feelings on them to be more accurate #alicent hightower #aegon ii targaryen #aegon targaryen #aemond targaryen #helaena targaryen #rhaenyra targaryen #daemon targeryan #luke velaryon #jace velaryon #not tagging TB I like my life and sanity #they're so mean all the time and in the last week I've been harassed by them multiple times

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