#i love spike’s redemption arc - they should have killed him at the end of season 4

[petpluto]

A tv moment that unfortunately lives rent free in my head is Faith’s “What are you gonna do, B? Kill me? You become me.” line in Enemies. Because, no, Buffy won’t.

Shows in general, and BtVS in particular in this arc, do this whole, “the hero can’t kill the villain - that’s just as bad as what the villain is doing!” And it’s just not. I understand Xander’s line episodes later in Graduation Day Pt 1, when he says, “I don’t want to lose you”, because killing someone, even someone who is hell bent on destroying the world and cannot be held by the normal judicial system, would definitively hurt and possibly change Buffy at a core level. Because killing people - hurting people - has been shown time and again to be something Buffy mourns deeply. But killing Faith in Enemies, killing her in Graduation Day, killing her in season 4’s This Year’s Girl, isn’t the same as Faith killing indiscriminately or for the purpose of ending the world. Faith tried to release Angelus. Faith is down with the Mayor’s plans. Faith is pissed off that after those things, Buffy had the *nerve* to fight back. It’s Buffy’s job to protect humanity from the things normal human systems can’t handle, and evil Slayers fall under that purview. The show makes the argument, through Faith and then a bit through Xander, that this is different, because Faith is different. Because killing Faith puts Buffy on a path to, what, killing more people? But that’s just not true. Faith didn’t continue killing because she accidentally killed Allen Finch and got a taste for it. She keeps killing because she - at this point - is a nihilistic character who doesn’t see or understand the good in the world. She has been failed time and time again, by her family, by the system, by The Watcher’s Council - and her rage and fear and self-loathing brings her down this path. But that’s not Buffy’s path. If Buffy kills Faith here, it hurts Buffy. It might even destroy a real and vulnerable part of her. But she won’t become Faith. She’ll still be a hero - just maybe one who won’t like herself as much. And, hey, we got that in season 6, so.

[diientedegato]

I'm curious if you have any thoughts on what Ben Paul would look like if he was alive years after S1 of TWDG :> I honestly prefer to imagine both him & Kenny going off on their own adventures after S1, because Idk if I'd've had Kenny as part of S2, it felt like when he returned it became less Clem's story & more his. That might be controversial among fans but it's how I feel :s I like to imagine Ben, Kenny & Sarita forming their own little family in fact <3 I'd expect Ben would end up with shaggier hair after a while but I wouldn't mind knowing what he'd look like with short, spiked up hair ;>

IM SORRY BOTH THE ASK AND DRAWING ARE OLD- but I came across the sketch I had eugeugeh. I do not have many headcanons but behind the cut is just a rant about. Kenny mostly. Too much should I warn? But yah I'm sorry it took me like 5 months lol

The only headcanon (regarding Ben's appearance) is that he'd keep his school jacket for as long as possible. Until it thorns apart. Or until he dies.

I'm big fan of Ben lives possibility btw I've gotta draw sum about that sometime (I say, about every twdg character i like,)

And dude, do I agree about Kenny. Man doesn't belong in season 2. The character they made him to be in the second season is not Kenny, it's just a nostalgia element. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy, I'm biased as hell, I break that hug choice every time. But it made the character development in the first season just.... pointless. "For some reason, I saved that piece of shit Ben", man, that quote just disappoints me. Kenny lost everything. Father and husband of none no more, which was pretty much the arc of Kenny on the first season?? I think? . Everything he loved and he had he lost, and he killed the person responsible for it. But not as revenge, he killed a kid out of mercy. He saved the boy from suffering a painful death, and that was forgiveness, to the reason he hadn't any. He took a decision he would be fully responsible of, when it was time for him to go. And he was perfect.

Hell, if he had appeared during season 2, I do prefer the Kenny as Carver idea. Clementine wasn't even that close to Kenny in the past, the player was, so even then it feels... off, off to be forced to care about a man that says so much he wants to protect you. (They're not really family, but is as if Kenny tries to protect and have Clem on his side, to have Clem's loyalty through and through. Though he does let her go and is proud of her on her individuality... hm.) But still, I mean, second season Kenny is not first season Kenny, and it isn't even a change that made sense. If he had been antagonist (which pretty much feels like it in the Canon story already), he should have had some other background story, no Sarita or company. Maybe then the cynical view he has would have mattered. The violence and anger and whatever else. For him to change that way was a consequence of him losing what he represented, protection of family? Wasn't failure and grief and acceptance meant to be important after all?

But otherwise yea I think it would've been pretty cool if Ben survived :3 I am a sucker for tales of redemption, forgiveness, and found family. And I hadn't thought about Kenny, Ben, and Sarita, but hell yeah. Man, even if they appeared in the second season, it would've been interesting if the choice wasn't between two individuals, but between two families. Ben already had a relationship with Clem! He appreciated her and calls her his only friend during season 1, he did leave her behind during that scene, -but the point of Ben was that- He was a coward all the season, until when he wasn't. He wanted to help Lee help Clem. They would've had an interesting sibling relationship-? also Ben had a young sister before the apocalypse so ooooh projection and parallels and shi. And if Ben had lived, he would've completed his development to something close to bravery-?

Well, I don't know, at least I think that'd be one interesting way to bring back old characters. Otherwise, Kenny should only be mentioned on dialogue maximum. The way I see it.

(I repeat the same thing over and over when I talk about something I'm sorry

(I've developed no language skills whatsoever in my life

(Yippee

[chainsawcorazon]

and was it wrong for buffy to be willing to sacrifice a couple of lives to save the world? no. but was it necessary for her to devolve into a projection piece for spike’s mommy issues just so he could speedrun his redemption? also fucking no.

the shitasticness of season seven hinges on the fact that buffy’s transformation into a bastard and a general came right after she was beaten into submission season six. if joss wanted to prove how willing she was to sacrifice a couple of lives to save the world, then he should have had her kill willow in season six and anya too after she murdered the frat boys. the problem wasn’t buffy learning to exert her power more ruthlessly. the problem was that spike got more mercy in one season than she did the past three, AND SHE SPENT HER LAST SEASON ON AIR BABYSITTING THIS CLOWN. and yes, i get capitalism, and we always knew spike was being propped up for a bigger future even if none of it came to fruition after ats!5 but this? they were foul for all of it, ESPECIALLY what they did to robin, cuz even when you accept the lore that the vampire is a demon without its soul, the conclusion to robin’s arc was disgusting. couple in the fact that both gunn and fred are being sacrificed for wesley’s manpain in angel, im glad we never had to see a season eight bc there wasn’t anything left to salvage the story after the fact. we can go on forever about toxic feminism and joss’ obsession with womanpain, but the reality was….. we were over that shit. nobody wants to see the main character get beaten into a bench just so the side character can have something to sit on. and yeah, the networks loved spike, and maybe some of it wasn’t even the writing team’s fault, but it is so utterly foul for buffy to look a man in the eye and tell him she’d let her pet dog shred him when giles’ advice wasn’t to kill spike, but to remember what he was and what he’s done and WHY she even let him get close to begin with. she got clowned for it good in the end tho, thank heavens, but oof. if there was ever a time to call it a day on btvs, this was it. she was becoming something that would have eventually left a bad taste in our mouths, and im glad we never had to see her become her worst self. come to think of it, sarah probably clocked that shit at the time too, considering how wretchedly buffy was treated in season six.

[annyankers]

Pls tell us about the weird spuffsilla thing bc ur so correct actually

okay so i read this first as the weird SPRUSILLA thing and almost went off on THAT instead dfgfgdfsgs

I have a weird sprusilla thing and a weird spuffsilla thing atm so it gets confusing. if as anything i do isn't.

the SPUFFSILLA one is primarily a spuffy s6 rewrite that's fallen DEEPLY off the rails. it started as a prompt/challenge i was gonna post on EF but lol i never got around to it so like a year later i was like "u know what fuck it i'll do it".

excluding the options section i included in the original prompt here's the synopsis of the idea:

What if instead of descending into a mutually toxic relationship with Spike as an attempt to feel again Buffy latched on to the totally opposite end of what Spike was offering?

What if she enters into a relationship with him because the way he looks at her is the closest thing to how Heaven felt? Overflowing with love and safety, like she’s perfect just as she is and a million other wonderful things.

Could be coupley from day 1 or Buffy could be trying to act the way she thinks she should a la canon and stick to the “Spike Bad” philosophy or ping ponging between rebuffing and accepting him until Smashed/Wrecked where when she’s gearing up to escape virtue fluttering, Spike’s “last night was a revelation” line hits different and touches the part that wants to bask in that ‘bootleg heaven’ feeling and she relents to his surprise.

Then I ALSO decided because i'm FUCKING INSANE to include a ATS SEASON 3 REWRITE IN THIS because " i didn't want to ignore a main plot line even if i wasn't bothering with the trio". kill me. so darla is alive, she and the Crew head up to sunnydale for backup protecting connor. also faith is there with a new oc watcher. dru comes into the plot with darla bc it just makes sense to me she'd have stuck with her. juliet never came back bc she didn't want dru killed off (which you know they would do) so this felt right for dru's character.

it's getting kinda spuffsilla bc i am overall VERY adamant that 1. dru gets a shot at a """"""""redemption"""""""" arc too and 2. that if buffy is gonna be with spike she's gotta at least be ok seeing dru on the holidays. so naturally i've been angling towards them being amicable.

but it keeps getting Kinda Gay. but it's a Spuffy Fic™️. but buffy and dru keep getting homoerotic.

so i've decided to make all 3 of them kiss.

[tinumiel]

My Spuffy feels and why I feel that Spike/Buffy are a much more complete and better suited couple.

First of all, I want to say. I have yet to read BTVS Season 8 to 12, so please, please, PLEASE don’t spoil me anything. 

TW warning: the following analysis contains mentions of sexual assault, emotional abusie, toxic relationships and death.

First thing you need to know is that Buffy and Spike’s relationship in Season 6 is toxic and mutually abusive. This doesn’t mean it doesn’t have it’s good moments, but it is toxic none the less, and there is no way around that fact. The fact that their actions can be explained does not mean they can be excused. I know it, you know it, and any Spuffy shipper who tells you otherwise really missed the point of everything. They do a lot of harm to each other, and neither is at a healthy mental state to have a healthy relationship. Buffy is dealing with her resurrection, and Spike is dealing with these feelings that go against everything he has ever believed during his time as a vampire and he doesn’t understand, and probably an identity crisis. While they find comfort in each other, it is not in a healthy manner. Buffy is using Spike, and Spike displays obsessive behavior towards her.

It all culminates in Spike trying to force himself on Buffy, which is the final proof that this relationship had become as unhealthy as they come.

But, we need to analyze the entire situation more deeply, because, unlike most cases, it is not a black and white thing. Spuffy is not black and white, and that is the depth of their relationship.

What is important to remember is that, at this point, Spike is still a vampire without a soul. But, unlike other soulless vampire (including Angel, all you apologists), he is capable of feeling affection and genuine empathy for others. He is capable of good deeds, as we see majorly in season 5. He cared particularly for Dawn and Joyce (see how he paid his respects to Joyce after she died, not because he wanted to impress Buffy, but because he was genuinely fond of Joyce). After Buffy’s death, he could have left Sunnydale, since there was seemingly nothing left for him there. The Scoobies could not and would not remove his chip, the girl he was in love with was dead, he could hunt demons anywhere. But, he stayed AND helped the Scoobies to fight against the demons. This was, most probably, because he had come to care for Dawn and wanted to look after her. 

But, he is still a soulless vampire. And as long as he stayed as such, he would never be a good guy. He was capable of good and selfless acts, he was capable of love, but his natural condition remained evil. In order for him to truly redeem himself, he needed to have a soul, and in order for that to happen, there needed to be a turning point for him, an event terrible enough for him to fully realize his “evilness”, process it, be horrified by it, and decide to atone for it. This was the sexual assault on Buffy. It could have been something else: murder, torture, etc. But the creators chose this, and I think it makes sense, considering how deteriorated their relationship had become. 

But, how could Spike really become aware of te fact that what he had done was something terrible? In order for that to happen, I think the central factor is that he had to have no truly evil intentions. Spike sexually assaulted Buffy; but, he didn’t mean to. It was not a conscious action in which he did not care for the victim’s feelings, and only for his gratification. This is what allows him to realize that what he has done is terrible and that he must hold himself accountable for it. What proves that he had no ill intentions?

I read that a key factor in Buffy and Spike’s relationship in season 6 is the word “no”. But in this case, no usually meant yes. A problematic statement, but let me explain. Most of the times they said no to having sex with each other (particularly Buffy), she did not really mean it. It was more of a mandatory thing for her to say because she was not supposed to want Spike, but she did. It was why they always ended up together. The struggle was also part of, let’s say, their foreplay (see that very hot scene of the house destroying). Spike and Buffy’s relationship, particularly at this stage, it’s a love and hate, enemies to lovers dynamic. So, all of this was normal for both Spike and Buffy. Because of this, when Buffy refused him, Spike initial thought it was most probably that it was just another case of the same scenario. 

The audience realizes it’s not way before him, of course. Because we are not soulless vampires. Spike, while capable of selfless acts (like I already said), is coming from a very selfish position in this moment. He doesn’t stop to think of what Buffy is really feeling or considering the possibility that this time her no is a “real no”, but assumes that she is simply resisting him in the same manner she always did, because in that moment, he is being a typical soulless vampire. It is something the audience has probably come to forget at that point because of the good he had done previously, but, like I said, Spike would never be a good guy as long as he didn’t have a soul. He was bound to commit something atrocious sooner of later.

But, and here is the key element to this situation and one of his main differences with Angel. He realizes his mistake. Not exactly on his own accord. Like Buffy says, it was only because she stopped him, but that moment of stop was shocking enough to “bring Spike back from his frenzy”, really think the situation through and realize what he had been about to do. And unlike soulless Angel, Spike feels guilt for his most terrible act, he feel disgust at himself. He realizes he doesn’t want to be this person, and that he has to do something to take responsibility for what he has done. This is the moment Spike realizes he wants to be a good guy. And that he can’t be a good guy as long as he doesn’t have a soul. This is the pivotal moment. It is in this point that his actions do become black or white: he either chooses to be good or he chooses to remain bad. And he goes for the good action, thus initiating his redemption arc. But this would not have been possible without the extreme situation that was the horrible act of attempting to abuse Buffy.

After this, we reach Season 7. Spike has a soul now, and much like it happened to Angel, he is taking responsibility for all the terrible things he did in the past. He can’t change them, and all his victims are most likely dead, so the only way to take accountability is to start to do good, which he does. The one of his victims he can answer to for his crime is Buffy. So begins the journey of Spuffy in season 7, that begins with Spike properly experiencing and accepting the guilt and blame, and understanding the extent of the harm he did to Buffy, and accordingly changing his behavior. Where he was once selfish and obsessive, he is now comprehensive and supportive. He gives her the space she needs, listens to her, respects her feelings. The trust between them begins to develop and strengthen, and their relationship matures into a healthy love that is not based purely on physical attraction and unresolved feelings; but in full communication and mutual compromise. Just like Buffy accepted that Angel with a soul was not the same man as Angel without a soul, she accepts that Spike with a soul is not the same as Spike without a soul, and thus, forgives him and starts to trust him again. And this time, Spike proves himself worthy of this.

A lot of people, for some reason, seem to judge Angel with or without a soul as separate people (like Buffy does) but Spike with or without a soul as the same. I don’t know if this is because Angel answers to different names depending on his soul condition, or because his personality changes drastically, but either way, of course under this circumstances Angel is going to seem more healthy and come out on top. But if he were to be judged under the same standards as Spike, he would turn out to be much, much worse. Unlike Spike, Angel without a soul is incapable of love, selfless acts, or feeling empathy under any circumstances, nor is he interested in them. His only joy is to cause pain. He abuses Buffy, perhaps not sexually, but definitely mentally and emotionally, stalks her, threatens and kills those who are close to her and is obsessed solely with the intention of causing her pain. And he does not regret any of these actions. His soul is imposed on him as a punishment. Once he has it, of course, he is happy for it. But when he loses it, he has no interest in taking it back. Spike, on the other hand, has his soul restored. He resolves to search it on his own initiative because he wants to get better. He is willing to face trials that will test his physical and emotional resolve for it because he wants to be a good man. Angel’s soul is meant to be a punishment. Spike’s soul is meant to be a blessing. So, if they are both to be compared and judged, it has to be under the same terms. Just like Buffy does in the show. So they are either judged as separate entities (with and without a soul), or as a whole.

Taking all of this into account, I think it’s safe to say Spike and Buffy are on the long run a much better suited pair, because their relationship is much more mature and developed. They’re based on open, serious conversation, and mutual agreement and compromise, as love should be. Both Spike and Angel (that is, Spike and Angel with a soul) are good, healthy love interests for Buffy, but Angel’s relationship is much less mature and developed. Angel wants to protect her and preserve her, while Spike wants to support her and let her grow. One is a relationship from her teenage years, when she was still growing to be the person she was to become; while the other is a relationship developed throughout different stages in which they have both come to know each other fully well at their worst and their best.

Angel will always be Buffy’s first love and first soulmate. It will always be true love. And they will always have a deep, unique connection. But Spike is her true love soulmate, and to a much deeper level, because just as they reach the point of becoming the man and woman they were meant to be, they are there for each other to have the relationship and love they were both meant to find.

If you read this whole uncalled for reflection, you deserve a cookie and all my love.

[ponett]

hey bobby im planning to rewatch mlpfim, but i only got to like season three back in the day. ive heard the later series episodes are super hit or miss, do you happen to know of any good lists of skip-worthy episodes (or any suggestions yourself)? as ceo of flutterdash i figured i'd ask you. thanks!!

you’re in luck, people have asked me my opinions on mlp episodes so many times over the years that over the last few seasons i started rating episodes on a spreadsheet to remember which ones were my faves and least faves lmao

these are the ones i’d consider skipping. i apologize for this post getting long but i figured i should briefly explain why i think some of them are skippable

season 3

kinda boring, skip at your own discretion: apple family reunion, spike at your service

season 4

daring don’t - this one sucks but it is unfortunately important because it’s the one where they establish that daring do is real

bats! - people like flutterbat but this episode is a mess lol

three’s a crowd - discord is annoying for 22 minutes

kinda boring: power ponies, inspiration manifestation

boring but part of the season’s big arc: rainbow falls, it ain’t easy being breezies, leap of faith

season 5

the lost treasure of griffonstone - this is gilda’s redemption episode and it shows the griffon society. it kills me that this one is bad

slice of life - 22 minutes of references to brony memes

brotherhooves social - the only episode i skipped. big mac puts on a dress and poses as apple bloom’s sister and it is exactly as transmisogynistic as it sounds

what about discord? - 22 more minutes of discord being annoying

kinda boring: princess spike, hearthbreakers, the hooffields and the mccolts

season 6

newbie dash - rainbow learns to accept her new coworkers calling her a cruel nickname

stranger than fan fiction - rainbow dash and patton oswalt spend 22 minutes bickering over whether or not the star wars prequels are good

28 pranks later - rainbow dash is uncharacteristically mean to fluttershy in the cold open of this one so i hate it. then everyone else bullies rainbow. (she really got the short end of the stick this season)

kinda boring: applejack’s day off, dungeons and discords

season 7

parental glideance - rainbow dash learns that it’s wrong to have boundaries with your parents

hard to say anything - the writers mistakenly think i care about big mac being heterosexual

not asking for trouble -  a reminder that the writers really didn’t know how to write other cultures

kinda boring: flurry of emotions, discordant harmony, daring done

season 8

the break up break down - more of big mac’s boring love life

a matter of principals - more of discord being annoying. starlight kamehamehas him in this one though and i like that

kinda boring: the hearth’s warming club, friendship university

season 9

she’s all yak - trite makeover episode that also has some uncomfortable undertones

2, 4, 6, greaaat - why would rainbow dash hate cheerleaders

the big mac question - i can’t believe the last episode before the finale was about big mac’s boring wedding

kinda boring: a trivial pursuit (although this is the one where pinkie says all the ship names for her and twilight out loud so it gets points for that)

[ettadunham]

A Buffy rewatch 7x01 Lessons

aka redemption, nostalgia, and the circle of storytelling

We did it, guys! We made it to the last season! Also, hello if you’re new, and stumbled upon this without context. As usual, these impromptu text posts are the product of my fevered mind as I rant about the episode I just watched for an hour (okay, sometimes perhaps two). Anything goes!

And in today’s episode it’s the beginning of the end, as it’s relentlessly signaled towards the audience.

I’ll be honest, in the pantheon of Buffy season openers I find Lessons to be somewhat… middling. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot of good stuff here, but there are parts of the main storyline that are just frustratingly inconsequential.

Let’s not beat around the bush – I’m mainly talking about Dawn’s new friends here. It’s obvious what the show is doing here, having Dawn form a friendship with two other misfit students and fighting demons on her first day of high school. We’re clearly going back to the beginnings. It’s what the Master aka the First tells us as well. Invoking the show’s very first episode and showing the next generation taking on that mantle.

(Also, that scene of the Fist appearing to Spike as all the Big Bads is still a lot. The music! Drusilla! You got me there, show. You got me right in my nostalgia feels.)

Which is a nice and cool thought. I love that. I love Dawn here. I just wish that the friends she makes actually appeared beyond this one single episode.

Imagine if one of those kids were Cassie! Or Amanda! I know that it’s tough to plan out these kinds of things, but the show’s done it in the past – or at the very least, set up a consistent group of background characters they could always go back to.

There are so many minor characters all over the Buffyverse, who were plucked out of that canvas and had their own little arcs through a few cameos. Think of Chantarelle, Amy, Harmony, or even Jonathan. And these characters weren’t set up to have as big of a role as they eventually got; the writers just saw an opportunity to develop them.

Meanwhile we’ve got these two kids, who this episode codes as part of our new Scooby gang. And we never see them again.

That’s just a bummer.

And it takes away a lot from the main action for me. Again, I like the idea of doing this, going back to high school as the beginning of a new cycle, where life as a teenager is hell… But I also wish I was more invested in the fate of these kids beyond Dawn.

On the plus side, I’m definitely a fan of Prinicipal Wood, and his lack of subtlety when it comes to his involvement with the supernatural. He’s like dropping hints that he knows what’s up, instead of just straight up telling Buffy that his mom was a Slayer. So is it any wonder that it’s getting picked up as shady on Buffy’s end?

He’s doing his best though, guys!! He’s got a lot of mommy issues. Give him a break.

Spike too has his own issues (which we’ll talk about in relation to Robin too). It’s a stark contrast, seeing a newly ensouled Spike here, laughing maniacally at Buffy asking him if he’s real. So are the cuts on his chest, marking his attempts at trying to cut his own heart out.

I don’t feel adequate enough to talk about that in depth. This is self-harm territory. But there’s also obviously something very specific about Spike trying to get at his own heart too in a metaphoric sense. Sure, through the heart is one of the ways a vampire can be killed, but he didn’t try to stake himself.

Spike’s a romantic. It’s one of his core traits that’s followed him through all of his incarnations. Even as a soulless vampire, he was a romantic. Except then, that side of him became twisted. As he was incapable of experiencing love in its entirety, this alter ego of his focused on what was left. Dependence. Obsession. Possession.

Spike as a vampire also reveled in his passions, and so to him violence, sex and love were all the same. They all came from the same place.

It’s no wonder then that the first thing Spike does after getting his soul back is to try and get rid of his heart. The thing that made him do all those things, even before he became a vampire.

Discussing redemption on Buffy is interesting to me, because this isn’t the show where that’s a central motive. Those stories happen over at Angel.

So, from that perspective, seeing how Willow’s story is handled here makes complete sense to me.

You know, I’ve read the hot takes about how Willow should be facing more consequences for her actions. But let me ask you this: what could possibly be worse for Willow than losing Tara?

Here’s another: how would punishing her be helpful?

And if your answer is “because murder should be punished because we live in a society”, that’s a good point. It is indeed how most of our society functions. For a reason.

But the show has been proposing for many seasons now, that normal societal rules don’t always apply in Buffy’s world. As a result, Buffy herself is positioned as the one with the power to decide how to handle any situation. Something that Faith already tells her in season 3; but Buffy rejects that idea then. At that time, she hasn’t even severed her ties with the Council yet, and was unprepared for that level of responsibility.

The Buffy of season 7 however not only recognizes her power, but embraces it. She is the law.

Which means that she can set her own principals and examples outside of society. And you can call Buffy self-righteous or whatever anyway you want, but she was never one for punishments.

Buffy always protects. If there’s a threat, she fights it, and if it’s neutralized, she lets it go. That’s why she never killed Spike after he was chipped. That’s why she didn’t kill Ben.

Buffy’s not vindictive and gives everyone the chance to grow; and in turn, so does the show.

“But… what about Faith?” – you say, predictably. I of course knew you were gonna bring her up. Mostly because you are currently just a voice in my head, arguing with my much more advanced logic.

Ah, yes. Let’s talk about Faith.

Specifically, let’s talk Faith in Consequences.

Hey, remember Consequences? The episode in which Buffy is trying to make Faith face up to her actions while also protecting her? The one where they argue about them being the law, and Buffy rejecting that specifically because Faith posits that they shouldn’t take responsibility for what they do?

More importantly, I want to emphasize this: with the gang, Buffy argues for Faith. She may not have quite embraced her role here yet as the law, but it’s clear where her head is at. She even asks for Angel’s help to keep Faith from becoming a threat.

Faith of course has her own set of issues that pushes her over to the dark side, but that doesn’t become evident for a few more episodes to the rest of the group. And I’d argue that it’s largely due to Buffy that Faith is even welcomed back for that short period of time.

Of course, comparing that to Willow’s murder is still not a good fit. Faith killed someone by accident at that point. Willow was going on a vengeance trip.

So let’s fast-forward to season 4. Where Faith wakes up and the gang doesn’t know how to deal with her.

Now, I criticized Buffy’s approach there, saying that she only seems to be preparing for two options here. Faith is either still a threat that needs to be dealt with, or she regrets her actions, in which case, there’s nothing to worry about.

Faith’s state of mind is of course a bit more complicated than that in the episode, but notice something important. Buffy doesn’t want to fight or punish Faith if it’s not necessary, even though at this point, she definitely did more than enough murder. When they meet, she tells her so. “It doesn’t have to be like this, you know.”

And for Buffy, that’s genuinely true.

After what goes down, Buffy’s pissed at Faith though. And yet we only see that side of Buffy on Angel the series. Where redemption for Faith becomes a central conflict, and one that’s ultimately resolved by her taking responsibility for her actions, and giving herself up to the police. A justice system that’s operating under normal societal rules.

And for Faith’s arc, that works. Part of her ongoing struggle was facing up and dealing with what she’s done, so this gave her the opportunity.

That however, isn’t always the case. Mostly because prison systems overall are largely unhelpful in actually rehabilitating people, but that’s a hot take for another day.

Narratively of course we still want that sense of fulfillment. We want to see the characters we love redeem themselves, and we want to be satisfied that it’s earned. But for me, that’s there with Willow as much as it’s there with Faith. It’s just that beyond the difference in thematic approach between the shows, their arcs just aren’t a one-to-one comparison.

Willow isn’t in denial about what she’s done. And she’s been dealt enough punishment as it is, even if it wasn’t any consequence of her own actions. By societal rules, she should be in prison, but because Buffy operates outside of those, Willow instead gets to have help, support and lessons.

And that’s kind of fascinating.

GILES:  “Do you want to be punished?” WILLOW:  “I wanna be Willow.”

I haven’t talked about Dawn nearly enough, but just know that I love her.

That is all.

[magic-and-moonlit-wings]

Hi, what are your thoughts on Strickler/Barbara? How would Claire get the Decimar Blade to break it's hold on Gunmar's army? Also, due to a string of days where my mum and dad get mad at me, I feel emotionally worn out and stressed. It's nothing too serious, and I love my family but I'm tired of always keeping my head down and letting them walk all over me, I'm 20, and this shit needs to stop. I'm not asking that you play psychiatrist, but do you have any advice or encouragement for me?

Stricklake:

I ship it, partially because I was first introduced to the show via some pro-Stricklake content and so it became a key aspect of my understanding of how the show worked before I’d even seen a single episode, and partially because I find the character dynamics really interesting.

(That first point, learning the ship before the show, also influenced me regarding Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

The first episode I saw in it’s entirety was Something Blue, where Buffy and Spike are magically compelled to get engaged for most of the episode. Seeing that with no knowledge that the characters actually hated each other at the time, and then discovering later episodes where Spike was in love/obsessed with Buffy, meant I accepted them eventually getting together as a given.

That episode also left me under the impression that Buffy was a comedy series in a horror-style setting, so … that was a learning curve.

Interestingly, the same concept of ship-before-show had the opposite effect in my watching of Voltron: Legendary Defender.

I had seen so much Lance/Keith shipping content before I got around to watching the show that I began under the impression they were an established couple. Therefore, it was really confusing when the first episodes had Lance viewing Keith as his rival and Keith barely noticing Lance’s existence.

I never was able to see their supposed chemistry in canon sources, only in fic and fan art. Of course, I also quit watching after Season Six - I was starting to lose interest in the show by then and decided to stop while I was still having fun.)

In Season One of Trollhunters, there’s a lot of dramatic irony in Strickler and Barbara’s interactions, because the audience knows he’s a Changeling and can catch the double-speak, which makes their scenes interesting to watch. (Except for some people, whose past experience being manipulated meant those scenes were triggering instead and drove them away from the show. Shipping is very subjective that way.)

Barbara is obviously drawn to Walter. Literally moments after she meets him, she asks Jim whether he knows if his teacher is single. Walter, I don’t think, ever intended specifically to flirt with Barbara - the charm and charisma is just a Changeling thing, “yes, human, you should like me, you should trust me,” - and initially him dating her was taking an opportunity to put the Trollhunter in a vulnerable position. Developing actual feelings for Barbara caught him off-guard.

Barbara had a lot more agency and took more initiative in their relationship in the first season, both in starting their relationship (“Coffee? Dinner? Appendix removal?”) and in ending it. (“Don’t talk to me. You’re the one thing I’m looking forward to forgetting.”)

Yeah, while we’re on this subject: from my perspective, they broke up at the end of Season One, and whatever’s going on as of Season Three is a new relationship.

When they meet again in the third season, Barbara’s mostly reactionary, and Walter stumbles a lot because the writers seemed to be treating him like he was already finished his redemption arc by the time they met again in Parental Guidance, rather than still midway through it.

I’ve written before, I believe, that their Season Three dynamic would be much improved by the following two things:

1) If Walter actually apologized at some point; and

2) If Barbara had contacted him after getting her memories back in Parental Guidance, rather than him showing up at her house uninvited after the events of Bad Coffee. This would give him the chance to confess and apologize for his past misdeeds while confirming the truth of her recovered memories.

He could then either back her up when she contacts Nana and the Nuñezes, or convince her to approach the Trollhunter team first, which would give the kids a safe human adult to go to about troll stuff. Forcing the reveals had potential to go a lot worse than it did.

Having Barbara and Walter’s next contact be on her terms would have also balanced out their power dynamic a little. It’s always been skewed in his favour because he has more information than she does. Having him demonstrate basic respect for her boundaries, by not approaching her after the last thing she said to him was basically that she never wanted to see him again, would be more palatable as well as making her more proactive in their Season Three interactions.

So in my opinion, canon portrayal of this ship started strong but ended clumsily, which is where fanfiction comes in.

Trollhunter Claire and the Decimaar Blade:

I had assumed, or rather guessed, that the Eclipse Armour would let the Trollhunter steal and use the Decimaar Blade, which seems to be magically tied to Gunmar similarly to how Daylight is tied to the Trollhunter. (See: Gunmar conjuring his sword; Daylight vanishing when Draal tried to wield it.)

The spinoff novels Welcome to the Darklands and Age of the Amulet state that the Decimaar Blade used to belong to Orlagk the Oppressor, who was the Gumm-Gumm Warlord before Gunmar killed him and took his position. Therefore, we can conclude the sword is tied to the position of Gumm-Gumm ruler, and that rulership of the Gumm-Gumms is passed down by right of conquest.

I figured Gunmar would be killed by his own sword and the Trollhunter would get full control of the Decimaar Blade automatically. (I guess the Trollhunter could’ve still gotten the sword even with Gunmar killed by Eclipse if the writers had gone for this option.)

I don’t know how controlling the Decimaar Blade would work, but I assume it’s at least semi-intuitive.

It might be a burst where the Trollhunter frees every mind-controlled troll all at once, or Claire might have to go through all the Gumm-Gumms freeing their minds one-by-one and … dealing with any that weren’t actually mind-controlled.

Regarding family stuff:

That sounds like it sucks a lot and I’m sorry you’re going through it.

I don’t know how reasonable or unreasonable your parents and other family members are, so I don’t know how well it would go over if you were to say, “The way you’re treating me is exhausting and stressful and I need you to stop [doing specific thing that’s distressing me] and try [less hurtful/more constructive thing] instead.”

I also don’t know your job prospects or state of health or financial situation (because those are all facets of personal information you should not be sharing with a stranger on the internet), and so I do not feel able to offer the reassurance “You won’t have to live with them forever,” because for all I know moving out is not a feasible option for you.

However, if that does sound like something you can say to your parents and moving out is in your hypothetical eventual future, those are probably the best reassurances I can offer that are actually relevant, as opposed to abstract comfort like “so long as there is Internet, you can look at pictures of baby penguins whenever you have a connection.”

[initiumseries]

Spuffy shipper will always makes me laugh. In season 7, it's always bother me how they erased all Spike's shit: the rape, the fact he killed Robin's mother... I was team Robin Wood the whole time and I can't believe they make him deal with a guy who killed his mother. Spike was a good villain but his redemption was bullshit.

LOL yea I’m still waiting on that anon to provide me with canonical evidence of Angel raping Buffy but okay. Okay, so…S7 is like my LEAST favourite season. I’ve rewatched it the least out of all the seasons because, I’ve always felt that s5-7 are a great departure from the established series, but s7 is the worst of them. It was heavy, and the characters felt OOC so often that it doesn’t even feel like I’m watching Buffy. Also the Potentials whining like every episode was frustrating. ANYWAY. I always resented the fact that Buffy was made to forgive, rely on and protect her abuser. She used Spike as self destructive self punishment for most of s6, then he tried to rape her when she ended things. At this point, everyone wanting Spike dead is valid. At some point I’m going to make a list, season by season of all the times Buffy should have killed Spike, because it’s actually ridiculous that she lets him run away. She doesn’t ever do that with any vampire, but she watches Spike get away OFTEN, and it’s because Joss liked Spike’s character and was extremely prone, from s2 to creating OOC moments for Buffy to ensure his survival. It’s annoying, and imo this is one of those moments. When Buffy saves Spike from Giles and Robin, I was furious. Largely because Giles had been acting less Giles all season, but also because Buffy basically threatens Giles to protect Spike, which to me, is insane. Her and Giles have too much of a father, daughter relationship for that imo, and Spike isn’t worth it. Also the reasoning felt flimsy. They needed Spike because of the First? Why though? The First was targeting them ALREADY. Spike wasn’t necessary, all the First did was whisper in his ear and make him do things, and if that was the case, having Spike around was more a liability than a necessity. Also…Spike killed Robin’s mother. I feel like the lack of empathy on Buffy’s end for that is…appalling. Spike has been wearing her fucking duster ALL THIS TIME. It’s AWFUL. Buffy’s lack of acknowledgment of that always sat wrong with me. I resent that so much of Spike’s “redemption” arc essentially required Buffy to be not herself and be his fucking caretaker to take place. He whined in the basement of the high school burning on crosses or whatever for like ever. Wow, so redemptive. It’s Buffy who cleans him up and tries to bring him back to himself. Why? It’s Buffy who protects him. Why? By the end of it, he’s not even all that redemptive. He just…lurks around telling Buffy he believes in her. So? Ugh, anyway I could go on about this forever. AND THEN, at the end, she tells him she loves him?? Really!??! And we ALL know it’s not even true!! He says so himself!! Seriously, after everything Spike has done to Buffy, her friends, setting himself on fire to save the rest of them is literally the least he could do. I really did not like s7. It had moments but was all around a massively disappointing way to end such a great show. Also I agree, I sided with Robin and didn’t think his faux death at the end was funny. Also, Spike was a great villain. He lost all his interest, appeal and fun the second he was neutered with that chip. It all went downhill from there. 

[buffysgotfaith]

You can change 5 things about Buffy, what do you change?

This is such a loaded question. Because changing one thing has follow on effects. I’ll pick 5 things, but they couldn’t necessarily all happen in the same timeline: 

1. Dead Mans Party- this is a small thing, but have someone actually acknowledge that Buffy wasn’t the only one in the wrong and that it’s normal to react emotionally (sometimes even over emotionally). I love Buffy more than any fictional character, so it’s no surprise that I hate this episode because everyone is so incredibly harsh to Buffy. The thing is that I get why they all feel hurt by her actions and I get that they don’t know that Angel had his soul back. But, they’re not allowing for her emotions to be considered at all. The episode frames it as ‘Buffy was wrong for abandoning her friends and family’ and ends with only Buffy feeling bad. Given we see that Buffy becomes even more prone to isolation when she’s dealing with a problem/trauma, I think just having things be a little more balanced here and less about blaming Buffy we could have seen a very different path for her. 

2. Have the Mayor actively court Faith- I like the storyline of Faith falling off the deep end and becoming one of the bad guys and I find the father/daughter type bond she and the Mayor develop interesting. But, it was all very rushed to me. I always see arguments that say things like ‘no wonder Faith sided with the Mayor when he was so good to her’ and the thing that bugs me about that is when she went to him she had no idea how he would treat her. I just think the turn against Buffy would have made a bit more sense if we had seen the Mayor actively trying to woo her to the dark side before Bad Girls. 

3 & 4. Season 4- I have a two part change for s4 that would have (IMO) made for a more appealing overall arc for a season that really struggled on that front. s4 has some really great points (Tara being introduced being my personal fave) and some great episodes (Hush, Restless, Something Blue), but the story of the Initiative and Adam as the Big Bad fall flat. I think Sunday should have been the Big Bad and she should have been a Slayer who was turned into a vampire. I’ve seen that this was something discussed and boy do I wish they had gone that path. I also think Faith should have had her redemption arc finished on Buffy. I like the Faith episodes on Angel, I do, but I just think for her character and for Buffy’s character it could have been better if it had played out in full on Buffy. I have a lot of thoughts for how something like this could have played out while also continuing with the themes of the season. I might write a fic about this particular change one day if anyone is interested.

5. No Spike in s7 - I have never hidden that I think Spike could have been killed anywhere from the end of s4 onwards and I would have been fine with it. I like Spike in s2 and s4 and then I just don’t enjoy where the writers take him minus a few small moments.  But, my biggest issue is his story in s7 and the position it puts Buffy in. I don’t think he was needed in s7, I think he took up too much focus in the last season of the series and that Buffy’s story was too focused on him in the last season of a show where she’s the title character. No Spike would have changed s7 a lot, but, IMO, I think it would have been for the better. Plus, I just like the concept of him getting a soul and realising that he really was an awful match for Buffy and that she deserved to move on from the mess of their s6 relationship without him around. 

[thunderheadfred]

Why I Love Spike But Also Hate Him A Lot: an unsolicited essay by me

OR: Why I personally relate to blood-sucking poseurs OR: dude what if I ever got high enough to rewrite season six?

(under a cut because this goes on for a while. also discourse frightens me)

Okay. I’m like twenty years late. But I’ve been rewatching BtVS s5 during my latest depression spiral and wandering against my better judgement into the Spuffy fic verse. Disclaimer that my grasp of the series’ larger canon is meh at best, and frankly I don’t care.

As usual, I have too many thoughts.

Spike is, hands-down, my favorite character on this show. Maybe one of my favorite characters, period. He’s just... good to watch. But listen. Secret poet or no, he was never an inherently good person. Meek and shy does not equal Buffy’s equal. I squirm at this apparently massively popular canon interpretation of his human character as some kind of adorable perfect cherub, as if William the Dipshit Poet is somehow preferable to Spike the Complicated Murderer or like, we should just automatically assume that cute shy white people who lived in 1880 London are default Lawful Good when in fact... ahahaa haaaa YIKES COLONIALISM?

I actually think the reason Spike is “more human” than other vampires (in the weird, contradictory Buffy soul-canon) is exactly because William was not Pure, he was a Pratt. Sweet? I guess. Loves his mum? He’s got that going for him. But that guy?? Is not Buffy’s long-lost true love, not a weepy ghost to be shoved into Spike’s Billy Idol cosplay bod at the last minute. In a show that, at its best, tries to give us a protagonist who fundamentally believes we must always make the choice to keep living mindfully, accountably, and with purpose... we get a love interest who is... Spike. A guy who, until the very end of his arc, acts as though he has zero fucking free will. Even though, through a combo of deliciously fun and inconsistent writing, Spike is apparently the only vampire in the Buffyverse who does.

I’ll get to that but first, let’s accept for a minute that Free Will + Buffy = good, and people who roll over and say “I had no choice” + Buffy = Mr. Pointy. This counts for her friends too, (*coughWILLOWcough*) and it’s one of the reasons I love the show despite its many textual problems. As a character piece, it’s great. People fail to take accountability for their behavior all the time. It’s an extraordinarily human flaw, one that rarely equals automatically evil, and I love that it can bite characters on the side of good, too. But that’s not the point of this, oh shit!

Okay. William, cute glasses aside, has no free will. He didn’t even sign up for the vampire thing, he just wanted to get felt up by a pretty girl who saw him cry and didn’t laugh at him. At every point, he was an immature, weak-willed, naive dreamer type who wanted nothing more than to be validated by his shitty friends. The vampirism made him a killer, yeah. But it also inadvertently gave a cowardly nobody a lot of good qualities. Now he’s a weirdly observant, relentlessly optimistic, fun-loving, sexually secure Cool Guy who gave up poetry for punk... but still tries too hard to impress his shitty friends. Basically, being a vampire made this guy a happier-but-still-undeniably-crappy version of himself, especially... considering all the murder. 

But now, let us transparently and metaphorically link cartoonish Vamp!Murder to addiction. Because wow, death in BtVS is either a manipulative authorial gut-punch or a dumb joke, and either way, it’s almost impossible to take seriously in this show, so let’s not.

How to make a remorseless bloodsucking fiend out of of “boo hoo I’m a bad writer and I wish some jerks thought I was cool?” Ha ha you can’t!  Turns out you basically recreate my early twenties but with more murder. Spike is a socially-dependent ADHD art school reject on a century-long avoidance bender. He’s a codependent, moon-eyed boyfriend who learns how to aggressively project not caring while caring Far Too Much, all while clinging to aesthetic as an identity. ALTHOUGH let us not deny that he 100% enjoyed all the killing - wtf so much killing - because for vampires, killing equals pleasure, and charming, “happy” addicts always justify the comforts of their vices. He talks the talk cuz fitting in is his whole deal, but he’s not actually in it for chaos and destruction or any high-falutin’ evil reason, or even really for eating delicious ladies but because, in the end, it feels good and the only girlfriend he’s ever had thinks eating people is cool. Even his whole (gorgeous, splendid to watch) episode-long speech about killing two slayers was written more for Buffy’s character arc than his; we don’t really know why he killed the slayers other than like, “Because they had a death wish I guess. Side note: it was fun.”

There wasn’t much legitimately vengeful or hateful stuff in sad little William for demon!Spike to work with, and apparently William’s soul-or-whatever moved about twelve inches over his left shoulder and stayed there, occasionally poking him for the next hundred years. So it should shock no one that he immediately switches sides when a) his girlfriend dumps him, b) his addiction suddenly hurts, and c) it’s time to impress a new friend group.

I get that Spike’s whole soul-getting between s6 and s7 has been interpreted in fanon as a grand romantic sacrifice (ehhhhhhhhhhhh) and I get why that’s tempting, but the show itself bungled that up way bad and I just can’t get behind it. R*pe idiocy aside, making it ultimately all about Buffy just kinda cheapens what could have been a really fucking powerful redemption arc, one that would have led to a far more satisfying love story. Especially from Buffy’s perspective. 

Okay listen.

We have a guy who has been playing the “duh, Vampire!” card for a century, pleasure-seeking and self-centered, pandering to various peer groups, murderous or otherwise, a happy addict, impervious to change. So when finally, after a HUNDRED SODDING YEARS of being a soulless, hilarious dick, Spike has consequences shoved into his gray matter by the government, he doesn’t change. At all. He just starts obsessing over another woman, doing what he thinks she wants. A woman he thinks will give him new pleasures, a new, perpetually fine status quo. But this woman is Buffy, whose identity is rock solid even though her life is constantly full of challenge and change and choices. She “rewards” Spike only when he makes willful, selfless decisions. And the rewards aren’t romantic, either. Not early on. Even in canon, she keeps rejecting him over and over again, for crystal clear reasons. Thank god. Because when he accepts that she’ll never have him, but still does the hard stuff anyway, he’s unwittingly starting to change. It’s not just Buffy. Buffy demands real personhood. Independence. Identity. Choice. 

Uh oh. She’s gotten to him, then. Though it starts out selfish, he still makes a CHOICE. Quite literally, he takes on the pain of self-improvement - first by embracing the consequences of his chip, later by going on his fancy sparkly soul quest. Buffy is the catalyst, no doubt, because once a poet always a poet and girls are pretty, but Spike’s path to improvement (if not redemption) was already there, laid out nice and neat. His narrative low point, the lightbulb moment that makes him want a soul again, should never have come out of a season of terrible backsliding, culminating in the shower scene we all regret.

It should have been The Gift. 

Death isn’t Buffy’s gift. It’s love. And not that simpering, easy kind of love that just says, “there there,” but the hard, truthful love that makes you want to keep getting that goddamn rock from the bottom of the hill. Yes, Spike’s arc should still be about Buffy, it’s Buffy’s show, but it should have been more about the hole she left behind. Not just in Spike but in the world. 

What’s left? This latest and greatest group of people who have so far RIGHTLY rejected a demon whose sole motivator seems to be comfort. And maybe when these particular people hit rock bottom, they have enough wisdom to see a monster down in the dark and recognize themselves. Maybe Dawn (whose humanizing effect on Spike has been nearly as important as his obsession with Buffy) shows him that rare, rare thing called Validation. And oh god, he realizes he’s never actually moved beyond trying to sell effulgence to Cecily Whatsherface, that he’s been sitting on his own grave for a hundred years, waiting for someone to coddle and fix him, and now the only woman who might have, the best woman, literally the one girl chosen one above all others... is gone. This would be a good time to die. 

Or...

...maybe there is no magic soul cave, maybe he tries to end it and makes the CHOICE not to. Chooses to stay and help, because what else is there? Then BAM! it just slams back into him in a way that hurts like you can’t even believe, because admitting how bad you’ve fucked up is the most painful moment of a lifetime and I’ve lived it and I wish I’d had a hellmouth to jump into, but the Scoobies pull him back, and he takes care of Dawn until life seems to have some meaning again, then Buffy comes out of the earth traumatized and broken and no one is better equipped to help her than a recovering Spike, not because he’s magically her rock but because he’s also learning how to roll his own rock and keep on climbing, because Camus ruined us all for metaphors...

THE END

Anyway. As a recovering addict and toxic person who has been struggling a lot recently... who wants to improve and be able to give more to the people I love, Spike has an arc that just like... cuts me deep, man. Especially because of what should have been.

[takaraphoenix]

Today's tea is: redemption arcs should be redemption arcs and not redemption magical girl transformations. :)

I MEAN YEAH OBVIOUSLY.

Seriously. A redemption arc means that a character who has previously done wrong:

realizes that they did something wrong,

realizes what they have done wrong,

spends an arc figuring out how to change their behavior,

expresses actual regret for the past,

actually, actively changes and does good now.

Somehow, nowadays’ redemption arcs like to immediately skip to step number 5 and forget the four before it. See, Wanda MCUmoff. There was barely a moment of realization and no figuring out just sudden, mostly even self-benefitial change of behavior.

Because that’s another huge part of redemption. The redemption has to be fueled by something selfless. If it is just to benefit the character’s position, then it is not actually redemption or changed behavior, it is just a selfish asshole continuing to be selfish.

A good redemption arc: See Zuko. Seriously, dude goes through all the stages, he actually has to sit down and figure himself out before he changes his behavior and even then, it is gradual because there is no magical ‘suddenly doing everything right!’.

And, another important thing about Zuko’s arc compared to say Wanda or M@ryse, he does not immediately gain forgiveness and blind trust.

Because that is as much an important part of a redemption arc, not just the character themselves changing, but also their environment around them reacting to that change.

While the Gaang accepted him onto the team, there was weariness at first and it took a little for him to really gain their trust. Rightfully so considering the dude’s spent all the show hunting them so far!

But he works through the steps 1 to 5 and earns their trust and thus earns his redemption.

With Wanda...? She suddenly does good when it benefits her (her brother is killed and her home is about to be destroyed... gee, let’s switch sides) and everyone just pats her on the back for it. No weariness or actual consequences for her previous villainous actions. At all.

And they could have actually worked on it. In a perfect world, even she could have been redeemed, by having her first of all locked up in prison for a while to make up for her crimes (seriously, she is literally a terrorist who sided with the Nazis and then with Ultron willingly??) and in that time, contemplate her own actions, fueled by the grief for her brother, vowing to change her ways. Released after her justified punishment, she does good, but the Avengers obviously would not immediately trust the girl who messed with their minds. She has to prove herself, repeatedly, by helping out, saving lives on a small scale, before helping in a major event and then earning her position as an Avenger.

But since this isn’t a well-paced cartoon with lots of episodes but a rushed movie-verse, we had to immediately, within the same damn movie, jump to her being accepted with open arms.

And that’s... not right. A huge part of a redemption arc is the part about earning forgiveness for the deeds of the past. Just because the other side are the good guys doesn’t mean they have to blindly trust and accept abso-fucking-lutely everyone.

Now, a good redemption arc can be a really fulfilling plotline. Looking at Buffy, the characters who came from a bad place and fought their way to the good side are the most interesting ones - Angel, Spike, even Cordelia on the comparibly small scale of being a bully, Anyanka.

We root for that. We root for the good in people and seeing someone realize that about themselves, that they have good inside themselves, and then seeing them fight for it and also struggle with it is absolutely fascinating to watch.

Granted, just because I love a good redemption arc does not mean that every character is redeemable.

You

Can

Not

Redeem

Abusers

Period.

If he beat up his wife for seasons on end, I do not want to see him become a better man, or heavens forbid, being taken back by said wife. It’s unrealistic and bad and also rather gross.

Sure, people can change. But being an abuser - a grown-up abuser - is... it’s not a redeemable quality. It’s a fundamental character flaw. That does not mean those characters should not exist. They’re important too. Not every person is a good person, not every character needs to become a good person. Seeing the bad and evil in people is very important in story-telling.

There is, of course, a difference.

There is a difference between an adult abuser and a school bully.

And that is, I think, where tumblr’s attitude toward redemption arcs come into play. They don’t make this distinction.

So this kid bullies and, consequently, abuses other children? Then they do not deserve a redemption arc, they are beyond redemption.

That’s... a problematic point of view. Children are children. What they do is usually learned behavior. Learned behavior can be unlearned. Learned by their own environment, their own abusers, or simply the pressure around them. They can still change. Often times, children don’t even realize that what they are doing is abusive and painful for others.

It’s the adults that are beyond redemption. An adult preying on the weaker - on their partners or worse yet, their children - is someone very conscious of the power they are using and also very high on that power. Using it to make themselves feel better.

The positive about giving school bully characters redemption arcs? Children who watch them, children who are like that, might see the error in their ways and might change. Those redemption arcs are a learning opportunity.

The negative about giving adult abusers redemption arcs? Real living, breathing abuse victims will feel like they have to forgive their abusers, like the ever-old mantra of “It’s just this once, it won’t happen again, they don’t mean it” is actually true - because this here abuser on their favorite TV show did genuinely change and everything went good, right? Wrong. All it does is silence actual victims, make people being abused by their parents believe they owe their abusive parents something, which they don’t.

Abusive partners and abusive parents do not deserve redemption arcs. Their stories need to be told, but you can’t just slap a “and then they became a hero and everybody loved them and also their bad behavior from the past is totes fotgotten!” onto that bad boy. The thing is though, they can still become heroes. Because humans are complex. He can save the world repeatedly and yet still come home and slap his wife around because he likes to feel powerful, be that by being worshiped as a hero or by domineering his wife.

Characters do not have to be black or white. That also includes that a previously morally black character does not need to be redeemed into a one hundred percent morally white character. Gray’s a thing that exists.

Just because a character is “a hero” does not mean they have to be “a 100% good guy, beloved by all and kind to everyone”.

That’s... That’s part of what makes abusers so scarily fascinating, because to everybody else they might be a very nice fella. They have a good, kind and even helpful front.

What you do when you write and mistake making your abuser do A Good Thing and thus concluding they now need to turn into actual 100% good guys, is that you validate the front. And you invalidate the ones who suffered the abuse at their hands.

There are people - characters - who can fundamentally change their ways, who can have a triggering experience that will make them realize they were wrong. Children behaving in an abusive manner can realize and unlearn this behavior. But grown abusers can’t.

You can make a Dudley push through his learned behavior and acknowledge Harry and apologize for the past. You can not make a Vernon suddenly hug Harry and become Uncle Of The Year. It is not realistic.

Abusers do not deserve a redemption arc.

[sulietsexual]

Its been a while since I asked you meta related things so I just had a random idea - top 5 characters which you just dont understand, top 5 ch which are well writen but you cant connect or like, top 5 ch storylines you would like to alter, top 5 traits of your disliked chracters that you like, top 5 traits of your loved characters you dislike, top 5 ways your disliked characters contributed to the main storyline that youre fine with. For males and females separately so theres room for thought :)

Top 5 Characters I Don’t Understand

Male

Wesley Wyndam Pryce - okay, so this is only from mid-Season 3 onward, but I cannot fathom Wesley’s actions in stealing Connor, consulting with Holtz and doubting/not believing in Angel to the point where he didn’t realise that Angel would do everything in his power to protect Connor. Then his self-righteous attitude post-kidnap is appalling, the fact that he acts like the wronged party and refuses to acknowledge his own wrongdoings and never apologises for his actions all drive me crazy. Just can’t.

Luke Danes, I mean, buddy, pull it together. You say you want Lorelai, yet never make a move and then bitch about her boyfriends and act like a jerk. You say you’re “all in” and then you run at the first sign of trouble and make Lorelai feel like she did something wrong. You tell Lorelai you want her to be honest with you and then you hide your daughter from her for two freakin’ months. You say you want to spend your life with her, yet you shut her out of it. Like, wtf??

Fitzgerald Thomas Grant III, omg, why is he such an abusive asshole? Why does he treat every woman he’s with like crap? Why does he treat Mellie as if she’s insignificant and stupid? Why does he act entitled to everyone’s time and affections? Why does he continually try to give up the most powerful position in America? Why doesn’t he have any ambition? Why does he resent anyone who does??? I don’t understand.

John Winchester. Dude’s always going on about how he “did the best that he could”. Nope. The best he could would have been to raise his boys in a stable freakin’ environment, not push adult responsibility onto his eldest, not treat his youngest like an outcast/freak for wanting a better life and actually being an adult and being there for his boys. How does he justify the way he treated his sons? Don’t get it.

Finn Collins. Dude, you cheat on your girlfriend, neglect to tell the girl you’re cheating with that you even have a girlfriend, don’t tell your girlfriend you cheated on her and expect both girls to still want you? Plus the whole massacring eighteen unarmed people and then ignoring their bodies as the girl you want walks in horrified and look at her as if she’ll love you for your actions? Yikes.

Female

Lorelai Gilmore, she constantly puts her mother down for her privilege and sense of entitlement, yet displays the exact same behaviour. She rejected Chris, then bitches about how he “wasn’t ready”. She thinks all her behaviour is cute but it’s actually really annoying. And she honestly seems to believe that her parents were the absolute worst parents in the world, when it reality they were really good to her and always try to be a part of her life. Pull it together, woman!

Octavia Blake, why does she blame her brother for everything? Why is her solution always violence? Why does she proudly cannibalize people? Why does she think she knows more about a culture she’s been a part of for two seconds than the people actually raised in said culture? 

Nancy Wheeler. Why does she want Jonathan so badly? Why does she screw over Steve? What makes her neglect her brother and run off with the guy she just banged? Why doesn’t she think through the consequences of her actions? Why did she offer her brother zero comfort when his friend “died”? What made her think it was okay to chase down Jonathan while he was picking out a coffin for his brother’s funeral to talk about Barb? Girl drives me bonkers.

Joey Potter, so many of her actions make no sense. She pines after Dawson for years and then breaks up with him for literally no reason. She blames him for telling her the truth about her father, after repeatedly saying they need to be honest with one another. She can’t decide between two guys for years. She constantly rejects Pacey yet picks him in the end. She believes she’s entitled to be a bitch to people just because she’s had a tough life.

Aria Montgomery, if your creepy-ass relationship really so important to you that you would lie to your friends and family, threaten your parents, risk your partner going to jail, threaten to walk out on your family and basically cease to exist outside of your boyfriend? Yikes.

Going to put the rest under the cut, otherwise we’re going to end up with a post a mile long.

Top 5 Characters Who Are Well-writen But I Can’t Connect To or Like

Male

John Locke, a great-written character who drives me up the wall with his over-zealousness and delusions of grandeur.

Spike, he really does have a great character arc and characterisation but his over-exposure and the fandom’s adulation of him drive me crazy, plus I hate how his narrative overtakes Buffy’s.

Jack Shepherd, such a great arc, such an amazing journey but his douchey behaviour and the way he treats certain characters means I just can’t like him.

Perry Cox, I find him amusing and do occasionally like him but his lack of self-awareness and overall mean attitude and sexism bugs me.

Dean Winchester, so well-written with a great arc but also abusive, violent, self-righteous, sexist and overall annoying as hell.

Female

Regina Mills, her redemption arc is sloppy but her characterisation was always strong and she’s a fantastic villain, which is why I love to hate her.

Robin Scherbatsky, very well-written with a great arc (until the finale) but I just cannot like her, probably due to her arrogance and meanness.

Rachel Green, now, I don’t hate Rachel or anything but she’s one of my least-favourite Friends characters and I’ve never been able to connect with her.

Katniss Everdeen, a great-written character whose personality I find very hard to reconcile and who I just cannot connect with.

Kate Austin, great arc, great characterisation, full of traits I can’t stand and makes choices that make me want to throttle her.

Top 5 Characters Storylines I Would Like To Alter

Male

Neal Cassidy, he was done so dirty by that damn show!

August Booth, another one screwed over by OUAT and there was so much left to explore with his character!

Dean Forrester, I really hate how much Gilmore Girls dumbled down and assassinated his character.

Boyd Langton, Dollhouse’s weird out-of-nowhere reveal that he was the bad guy completely changed his character and he didn’t deserve that.

Jake Ballard, he deserves better than being second-choice for Olivia Pope.

Female

Laurel Lance, who deserved the fucking world and got nothing, I would change so much about her storyline and eventual fate.

Mellie Grant who, like Laurel, deserved so much and got shit.

Emma Swan, who was character assassinated in order to box her into a toxic ship which decimated everything about her.

Juliet Burke, who should have lived and had a happy life and finally made it off that damn Island!

Effy Stonem, who deserved better than to be sandwiched between two guys who treated her like a prize and blamed her for their rivalry, not to mention the shitty “friends” who used her as their scapegoat.

Top 5 Traits Of My Disliked Characters That I Like (I’m not going to pick my absolute most disliked characters for this, but just 5 characters I dislike in general. Also, probably can’t come up with five for each, so I’ll go with as many as I can list).

Male

Going with Wesley again - love his intelligence, his surprising confidence when he allows himself to show it, his thirst for knowledge and his goofiness.

Spike - I like his bravado, his confidence and his loyalty.

Dean Winchester - similarly to Spike, his bravado, his loyalty and his confidence, as well as his humour and love of fun.

Luke Danes - I like that he’s good at the big gestures, I like his snark and his homebody nature.

Jess Mariano - I like intelligence, his snark and the fact that he sorts himself out later on in life.

Female

Anya Jenkins - love her work ethic and the fact that she handles money well and knows how to budget, save and invest.

Betty Cooper - she’s got gumption, I’ll give her that and she is intelligent and hardworking.

Felicity Smoak - like Betty, she’s intelligent and has gumption.

Cassie from the Animorphs series - she’s compassionate and does try to understand people, which I like.She also has a lot of empathy.

Alison DiLaurentis - she is ruthless and strategic and highly intelligent, all of which I admire, even if her actions are truly sociopathic.

Top 5 Traits Of My Loved Characters I Dislike (again, this may not reach five but I’ll do my best)

Male

Angel - his tendency to make decisions for others, his jealousy, the way he can completely cut off those he cares about.

James Ford - the way he lets his self-hatred affect others, his self-centredness, the way he can be deliberately cruel at times.

August Booth - he lies way too much, his self-hatred, his selfishness.

Neal Cassidy ………….. nope, I love Neal too much, can’t think of any traits I dislike.

Charles Gunn - the way he diminishes himself for others.

Female

Prue Halliwell - that damn pride, her self-righteousness, her judgmental streak.

Juliet Burke ……………. nope, as with Neal, love her way too much to dislike anything about her.

Lana Lang - her Mary Sue traits (this lies more on the writing of her character than her), her tendency to project her own feelings onto others.

Lilah Morgan - well, she’s an evil bitch, but you’re supposed to hate her for that, so I more hate her actions than her herself, such as when she gives Cordy the visions which almost kill her or when she sends people to drill into Lorn’s head.

Jo March - her lack of propriety at times, her judgemental streak, her refusal to adhere to convention (at times)

Top 5 Ways My Disliked Characters Contributed To The Main Storyline That I’m Fine With (I am running out of steam and not sure if I can come up with 5 males and 5 females, so gonna combine them for this last one and again might not make it to Top 5)

Alison DiLaurentis - I like her as a villain, her murder kicks off the whole series which worked well, and I liked that she works as a foil for all the girls, in particular Hanna and Mona.

Spike - love him as a villain in Season 2, love that he works as a foil for Angel in AtS Season 5, liked him stirring things up in Lovers Walk in Season 3.

Regina Mills - love her as a villain, love her as the Curse Caster, liked her dynamic with Emma, liked her as a foil for Snow and Emma.

……. I actually might be out, as usually when I hate a character it’s because of the way in which they negatively impact the storyline.

Whew, I’m knackered. Hope you enjoy my answers, even if they’re not 100% what you asked for!

[hardcandyfilmclub]

btvs

oh good gollyI feel like buffy is some pretty simple course correcting like, dont have spike fall creepily in love with buffy and stalk her and make a sex bot of her and try to rape her before and frankly during his redemption arc. he doesnt really need a whole redemption arc tbh they could have let him slide from a chaotic evil to more of a chaotic neutral which also leads to point two…

allow for more nuanced morality between the supernatural world and the human world, sometimes humans need to die, sometimes people are doing way more harm than the monsters who literally kill and eat you… conversely the supernatural world should be shown much more to be coexisting with the human world, we see a little bit of demon bars and ( T^T ) kitten poker but they take a huge backseat… maybe take some screentime from xander’s toxic masculinity and develop your world better

also maybe like…. dont make your lesbian mc an abusive mind-wiping rapist? willow was always complex and selfish in some ways I can’t stand in the context of the later seasons but it’s such a fucking terrible thing to do to a lesbian pairing and also like hmmmmmmmmm maybe dont kill tara

put some people of color in the fucking narrative FROM THE BEGINNING and treat their narratives and characterization lovingly, this is such a huge problem with the show that I cant even get into detail with it because they have to do STEP ONE before we can even begin giving positive tips for the kind of characters we want to see

it’s hard to pick just one to end on but like especially looking at the later seasons it just needs to be a little less punishing. late season buffy rewatches can be like a TRIAL tbh emotionally, even if u want to see certain episodes or arc you have to sit through a lot of unpleasant feelings to get there

[womanaction]

8, 13 (rey), and 25 (your choice!)

8.Have you received anon hate? What about?

Believe it or not, I’m reasonably certain I haven’t received anon hate on Tumblr. On fics, yes. Tumblr? No. So that’s nice.

13. Unpopular opinion about XXX character? (Rey)

I feel like all Rey opinions are unpopular right now because the SW fandom before TLJ feels like the last half hour of RotS. 

So here are a list of Rey opinions, all of which I’ve seen a lot of people disagree with

- Rey is not a Mary Sue/her abilities are not unrealistic

- Rey should be related to someone important based on the hype about her parents and the fact that a Skywalker family member is one of the main (and possibly the main) antagonists. Her being a Solo or Skywalker would represent the “hope” that is essential to SW not being an “everything sucks forever”-fest. Even being a Kenobi would link things back to redeeming Anakin’s fall, etc. (although in a much less impactful way)

- Rey is not a super well-defined character in TFA and while I’m thrilled to see a female lead in SW with many traits of the previous male leads, she deserves more on-screen development to be equally as engaging and unique. Part of this is likely due to the sexism that her character already faces. People still complain about Luke’s whininess and Anakin’s dramatics, but the primary complaint Rey faces is that she’s too good at things (which, if we’re going there, is obviously exactly the same for those two, see point 1 above). In one way that’s nice but in another it makes her less interesting and unique. Actually this is kind of true of all the ST leads so far, they were trying too hard to make them all likable and while they are, it doesn’t give them as much room to do great character arcs. 

25. How would you end XXX/Would you change the ending of XXX?

I feel like I should pick something where I would change the ending. I actually love the final moments of Angel, but I think the overall last season arc was pretty weak. Killing off Fred, in addition to being gross fridging, makes me care less, as does all the “is Angel evil???” teasing. Of course, it wasn’t supposed to be the ending of the show, so it makes sense. Ideally, AtS would have gone to S6, Fred and Illyria both would have been there (and Illyria better developed). Gunn would have had more time post-”redemption”, Spike would have actually made a choice to stay in LA instead of going after Buffy based on his own duties/feelings/priorities instead of weaksauce “we’re keeping that door open for an SMG guest spot” excuses, etc. Also bring Lilah back for no reason except I want her back. You could still kill Wes in S5 but bring Lilah back and make it about her pain. Or give her a quest to bring him back and force her to work with Angel that way. Or both! Both is good! 

[buffyrants]

Problems with Angel’s Curse

Angel’s curse has always fascinated me. I love the concept. However, there are a few problems that exist in how it’s handled. Angel was cursed with his soul as a punishment. Naturally, as having a soul in an undead body is against nature, there are loopholes involved that can break this curse. In Angel’s case the loophole is one of “perfect happiness.” This happens in Surprise when Angel and Buffy make love and, In Angel: The Series, a huge deal is made about Angel not being able to have sex now that he knows that’s a trigger. However, sex does not equal perfect happiness. Perfect happiness can only be generated as a result of genuine love so, frankly, Angel can have sex all he wants so long as it’s meaningless. (Although, I doubt that will help his redemption arc.) Angel lost his soul when he and Buffy made love because she accepted him and loved him unconditionally in spite of his past. Hence, perfect happiness. So all the blather about Angel and calling him a “eunuch” is the result of ignorance or an oversimplification depending upon which character is saying it. It also explains why he had to leave Buffy, because, sex or no sex, she made him too happy for him to feasibly be able to stay.

More to the point though, after they learn about how the curse can be broken, why is no attempt to alter it ever discussed? I can understand why the Romani made “perfect happiness” the breaking point because that was the one thing Angel was never meant to have. They did that as a means of making the curse to suit their needs. Therefore, why couldn’t a new curse be made? The gypsies clearly tailored that one to their needs, so why not tailor a new one with some less problematic loophole? Perhaps the loophole could be that if Angel farts upside down the curse would be broken. That way he could still regain his soul and still get to be happy and the curse is a lot harder to break. Frankly, I really do have to wonder if Janna/Jenny wasn’t trying to do this when Angelus killed her. After all, what’s the point in restoring Angel’s soul if he’s only going to be doomed to misery? (Well, I suppose it might save some lives, but still, if you’re going to do it, why not do it properly?) She didn’t get the time or the chance though so we’ll never know. 

This doesn’t explain, however, why no one ever (to my knowledge) went to the Kalderash clan and asked them to amend Angel’s curse. An argument could easily have been made that it would make for better vengeance. Angelus would suffer a whole lot more if he was forced to be trapped inside an undead body unable to do anything because of Liam’s soul. It was heavily implied in Innocence and Becoming that Angelus was making up for lost time having been trapped for about a century. Furthermore, in Orpheus, Angelus talks to Faith about how much he hates Angel/Liam for his conscience and not giving into the bloodlust that Angelus harbored. It was torture for him being trapped. Someone should have definitely gone to the Romani and gotten Angel’s curse set permanently.

However, perhaps this is impossible. As I touched upon above, a soul in an undead body is unnatural. Maybe, it can’t be made permanent without even worse consequences. Let’s speculate here that if Angel’s soul were anchored to his body, even if he were to be dusted, his soul would be trapped to the remains of the body, and being trapped to his own dust would drive him insane. It would be like hell on earth. This makes sense to me, and, if, for whatever reason, they could not anchor his soul or alter the curse as suggested in the previous paragraph, then Angel would certainly have had to have left Buffy rather than risk innocent lives to Angelus. I’m okay with that. I love stories about tragic and noble self-sacrifice more than the Hollywood endings. They seem to have more depth and power. Nevertheless, it sort of ruins aspects of the Buffyverse that the above was never discussed in an episode of Buffy in any kind of depth (that I can recall). I mean, one would think that after the Scoobies found out Angel was back from Hell, if only for the sake of safety, they would look into the finer workings of that curse. Regrettably, this is never discussed and was a huge oversight in my, not so humble, opinion 😉. What’s worse though, is that, if the above speculations are true about why Angel might have had to leave, it is entirely ruined by Spike’s (problematic) arc.

So, Spike gets his soul back and there are no known checks on it. This means that Angel’s curse clearly can be altered so that there is no “perfect happiness” clause. This means that the pain and suffering that he and Buffy have gone through is utterly useless. (Which makes me really, really mad at the stupidity of it all as they suffered needlessly. Still, if it couldn’t have been done by magic, Angel could absolutely have done what Spike did and gotten his wish fulfilled and gotten a stable soul back. I’ve heard the argument that “Angel wanted to earn it.” Nevertheless, I think that that is a bit too flippant, because Angel can still earn Shanshu without having to be cursed. Becoming human and having a soul are two separate issues. Angel can get a stable soul and still earn his human body back. Frankly, Angel probably would have done what it took to get that curse stabilized, if it were at all possible, as he would not want the risk that Angelus might ever take control of his body again and hurt people. This could happen by accident,or on purpose by his enemies. Both the mayor of Sunnydale and Wolfram and Hart tried after all. Angel would have been doing the right thing in getting his soul anchored permanently like Spike did. He would have been deeply motivated to do so.

This leads me to one horrifyingly awful conclusion: Angel and Buffy never had to separate for the greater good! Not when the implications of Spike's arc are taken into account. It’s just bad writing.

Which really, really, really sucks and someone needs to get some fanfics out rectifying this horrific oversight. There are two options to fix this:

1. Angel gets his soul anchored properly at some point between Season 3 and Season 7 of Buffy.

2. Spike never gets his soul back, or if he does, it’s not without having some awful loophole like “perfect happiness.”

Pick your poison there, but you can’t really have it both ways. I can't say I really have a preference. Option 1. Angel and Buffy suffer less and can be together. Option 2. Angel and Buffy demonstrate strength of character in the sacrifices and choices they make for the sake of the greater good.