#i think that hazbin hotel has an impossible premise

[noveratus]

I will be honest, I only have one hope for Hazbin Hotel, one thing I am begging them for and if they do, I will be the happiest person alive even if the whole thing ends up being shit, and that is to make Vaggie a genuinely complex and interesting character.

It is nothing new that A23 tends to have a certain reputation when it comes to female characters, that being that they are either shallow, vilified or get shafted for the sake of other characters, and while I see where people are coming from, I also think that it makes sense that Helluva Boss doesn't focus on its female characters. Helluva Boss is a show about Blitzø first and foremost and Moxie and Millie are mostly just there to act as Blitzø's want. He wants to have a relationship like what they have, even if the rest of Hell finds it to be appalling, but he isn't willing to work for it in the same way that Moxie is, for example. Moxie is a flawed character, there is no denying that, but he always comes around, realizes his mistakes and apologizes for it, while Millie is probably the only stable person in all of hell. She needs to be that pillar that holds not just Moxie and their relationship together. With that in mind, while I do wish Millie would have more development and we at least got to hear from her what she feels like being the one responsible for holding this ship together, I understand why she has not been the main focus. Loona and Octavia are both on the same ship where they are the 'child' characters. They represent the respective best part of their fathers, and while they have their little character arcs, they are mostly there to humamize Stolas and Blitzø. Then there is Stella who is just a bitch, and honestly, good for her. Sometimes it is fun to have characters who are just petty villains, and if there is one place where that works, that is hell.

My main point is, Helluva Boss is, at its core, a show about a relationship between two male characters, so it makes sense why they would get the most screen time, which unfortunately means other characters get shafted.

And then we have Hazbin Hotel, a show where the main character is supposed to be a female lead, Charlie and so far we are four episodes in and the show has been about literally everyone in the hotel other than her. In fact, I would argue that Charlie has been the main antagonist of the show so far since in almost every episode it is her going cartoonishly 'nice' to try and help other characters that leads to the main conflicts/problems, which it sucks since this feels like such a departure from the original pilot where Charlie was an awkward, but well meaning person trying to make the best out of a terrible situation. Now, she just feels like new sponge bob essentially, where she is just annoying everyone with her kindness. When all that the audience is getting from your main character is annoyance, you have a bit of a problem.

And then we have Vaggie and out of all of the characters, Vaggie is a very interesting one. In the original pilot, Vaggie is treated as a punching bag for the majority of it or as a minor source of conflict for Charlie, however, in the show, she has been treated with a lot more nuance so far. Sure, she is still bickering with Angel Dust and she despise Alastor, but you can feel that there is a sense of respect between them, particularly between Alastor and Vaggie. Not only that, but the fact that she seems to be coming from a militaristic background and seems to be the actual voice of reason, albeit a skeptical one makes her the most interesting character to me. I know that Vivzy and A23 can write good, compelling male queer characters, I have seen them do it in Helluva Boss and I will be frank, I still think all the characters and concept in that show are so much better than anything Hazbin has produced, so I don't need another show focusing on male struggles. All that I want to see is one well written queer female character. That is the one thing Helluva Boss has not done that Hazbin Hotel can do better. Make Vaggie an exterminator angel who decided to stay in hell, or a fallen angel or literally anything as long as you make it interesting. Please, make her more than just Charlie's girlfriend, make her an actual character. That is all that I am asking.

[gartenofbanny]

So the Helluva Boss episode, CHERUB just ruined the entire premise of Hazbin Hotel with one scene in particular.

So in the CHERUB episode, it's revealed that whenever an angel's actions result in a human's death, they're kicked out of heaven. So not necessarily fallen angels but more like banished angels for breaking the rules of Heaven as Deerie says "But those are the rules!" Before just leaving the three Cherubs behind. We don't know how long they're going to be banished, but this raises an interesting thought. If an Angel gets kicked out of Heaven possibly permanently for breaking the rules..then what makes us think that Demons becoming redeemed is possible? Angels are kicking out their own damn kind from Heaven just for breaking the rules, so how tf are demons, people that likely broke many of Heaven's rules supposed to be redeemed and go to Heaven?

With this revelation, it's obvious why Lucifer doesn't support Charlie's dream because it's LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Unless Heaven changes up the rules, which is easier said than done, there's no way a demon, especially a Sinner, would be allowed into Heaven regardless of whether they changed. As Alastor said their opportunity was the life they lived before and their punishment is Hell. There is no undoing what has already been done. I can't believe Alastor has a better grasp of the situation than Charlie does.

It's amazing how Vivziepop fucked up the entire premise of HH with one scene alone from a spinoff show.

[bump-inthe-night]

I saw fanart basically discussing what would happen if Val were 'redeemed'. Personally I don't think Viv has the maturity involved to write anything resembling a redemption arc for Val. Rapist redemption arcs are very rare and you have to know what you're doing and even then, you're walking on glass trying to make an arc for them and one wrong step can cause people to go ape shit and they do so in spite of that. It's really tricky and you might scare your audience away.

It's not impossible, better writers than Viv have done it I'm certain, but she does not have the capacity to do it. Especially since given her treatment of Stolas whose basically diet Val with a weird backstory with Blitzo, Viv would fumble trying to do that.

Yeah, Vivziepop should stay away from redeeming Valentino because there's a strong possibility of her making him into a "uwu sad boy," and I would hate to see that. She's repeatedly proven that she can't handle complex themes due to how inconsistent and impatient she is.

Honestly, I wonder if Vivziepop changed the original premise of Hazbin Hotel because she realized how far in over her head she was, so she decided to focus on it as little as possible in the show.

[dungeons-and-dictions]

It’s Analysis Friday about precisely why Hazbin Hotel is such a stand out.

But first - this is probably my last Hazbin Hotel-related analysis until the next season; give me asks during this long dry spell!

Why on this specific topic? Because I’m tired.

Y’all.

Listen.

I’m all for subjectivity. People can just like or dislike things regardless of quality. Heck, I know Helluva Boss is part of the Hazbin world, but it gives me too much cringe and vicarious embarrassment to handle.

(Yeah, I’m weird. I know)

But I keep hearing people say Hazbin Hotel is mid or just relying on hype.

Those are fighting words!

We are getting quality on par with Disney movies for a tv series!

That’s crazy! Let’s break it down.

Musical numbers

Talented singers play the main crew. Stephanie Beatrix plays Mirabel Madrigal, Kimiko plays Izzy, etc.

There were 2 songs per episode! And because it is truly perfect for a musical, we even get thematic reprises and callbacks!

Does anyone recall when similar things have happened in animation? MLP:FiM had a glorious episode that was ALL musical with a reprise. That’s all I have at this scale outside of Disney.

Characters

I’ve always known Vivzie to put thought into her work, and this shines through so well in Hazbin.

Lucifer’s depression is similar to my own

Angel’s gradual changes and struggles are realistic

Charlie’s breed of passion is the same as mine in my career

Alastor’s extremely manipulative yet we all love him

Velvette had one of the best formal character intros I’ve seen in a long time

Hazbin Hotel works really hard to get away from stereotypes, and dives in past superficial traits.

Also, we get things like Valentino sounding like he’s squeaking because moths squeak. We don’t need these things!

Animation

You know what else we don’t need?

Airplane arms!

Complicated dance moves!

Cute leg swishies with cuter sound effects?

Every second you see is 10+ frames traditionally. (Idk the studio’s technical details). That’s wild to add in these complicated extra details! And they flow so nicely! This level of quality for 2D (and honestly 3D too most of the time) is unheard of in the West nowadays.

And on that, western adult animated shows typically are so poorly made, especially in the art. Even the few I have seen that have okay stories to tell absolutely stink in terms of visuals and movement.

Story

Yeah, this is the biggest weakness Hazbin Hotel has, no doubt. The story is actually an incredible premise, and truly done pretty well within the awful time constraints. I think everyone is valid in saying it was far too fast! Hopefully we get more (or longer) episodes in upcoming seasons.

But at the same time, this is also the nature of musicals. If you think this is fast, don’t watch the Les Miserables musical where everyone only sings. Idk why, but singing the entire time makes everything seem like you’re in a race car on autopilot.

Don’t forget; the symbolism just drips out of the screen in this show. The fact that I could still do more analyses even now is a testament to that with all the content I have done since it aired. Vivienne goes hard on the details.

But put yourself in Vivzie’s shoes. You do the impossible, shot for the moon while hoping for maybe the top of a 5-story building, and you were offered the stars. Your project has been a part of who you are before you even went to university, and a major company gives you a way to bring it to life? Why wouldn’t you settle for this good of a deal?

Innovation

People do not bring up often enough that Vivienne broke a glass ceiling separate from that of gender. She showed that YouTube animations can be taken seriously, and even be aired.

In this age, the Saturday morning cartoon blocks I grew up with no longer exist. There were tons of great shows, and I could talk with other kids about it. Nestled within these weekends were shows that ran short pilot episodes for potential series. The last time I saw one was Adventure Time’s pilot.

It’s been a whiiiiiiile.

So having a cutesy little indie pilot animation amongst thousands on YouTube be such high quality and get a mainstream platform? Spindlehorse made history!

Moreso, Helluva Boss is also demonstrating the capacity of indie studios like never before - and what may pave the way for the future of animation too.

Out of all the animated series running on YouTube, Glitch is the only creator who does 3D that I am aware of. Even Glitch’s work has only started within the past few years, ie after Vivienne managed the impossible.

So please, stop complaining about subjective parts so much. Hazbin Hotel objectively has some of the highest craftsmanship in western animation.

We are blessed that Vivienne’s dream has come true in such a glorious manner. When I discovered her back in 2012, I couldn’t have guessed the pilot would be so successful, nor that it would change what was possible for animation!

[jinxquickfoot]

20 Questions for Writers

I was tagged by @16woodsequ. Thank you!

1. How many works do you have on AO3?

82!! And that's counting the one-shot collections as 1 fic.

2. What's your total AO3 word count?

1,572,787

3. What fandoms do you write for?

Still in Marvel, although I've had a few ideas around Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss that I probably would written if my MCU WIP list wasn't so impossibly long.

4. What are your top five fics by kudos?

The One Where Peter is Bucky's Weakness

Let's Whump the Spider-Kid and Friends!

The One Where Peter is Tony's Weakness

You're Always Spider-Man

The One Where Clint is Tony's Weakness

You guys really like it when I kidnap Peter Parker.

5. Do you respond to comments?

Of course!

6. What is the fic you wrote with the angstiest ending?

The Worst Thing, it's the only ending I wouldn't call 'happy'. I labelled it 'bittersweet' instead, which I think is fitting. Actually Dollhouse also is a strong contender.

7. What's the fic you wrote with the happiest ending?

Let's Whump the Spider-Kid and Friends! teeters on the edge of soppy. Everyone is alive post-Endgame, Peter gets a prom with all the Avengers and his high school friends, and the Spider-Kid in question gets a whole month of rest.

In hindsight, I wrote that fic during pretty extreme burnout (that I am now thankfully over), and I can see my need for rest and care just bleeding through Peter in those final chapters. I'm so grateful we both got what we needed.

8. Do you get hate on fics?

Not for a long time, since the debates over Civil War have... if not settled, maybe don't hold as much interest as they used to.

9. Do you write smut? If so, what kind?

Not yet, but I think I might be brave and include some Winterhawk smut in the Heart of Stone series.

10. Do you write crossovers?

Nope.

11. Have you ever had a fic stolen?

Not that I know of. I've come across one or two with eerily similar premises and wondered, but I've never followed up. Tropes are tropes for a reason.

12. Have you ever had a fic translated?

Not a translation but Hair is Everything has a podfic!

13. Have you ever co-written a fic before?

Many! And tried to many at the same time which was a mistake, but I'm so glad I've gotten to work with so many incredible authors:

The One Where Clint is Steve's Weakness with @16woodsequ

The One Where T'Challa is Shuri's Weakness with @fluencca

The One Where Bruce is Thor's Weakness with @onwardmeteors

The One Where Peter is Peter's Weakness with @spagbol99

The One Where Bucky is Steve's Weakness with @usaonetwothree

14. What's your all-time favorite ship?

Winterhawk aka Clint/Bucky has my heart forever and ever, but I have a soft spot for Clint/Matt and Wanda/Vision as well. Outside of Marvel, I love reading for Stede/Ed, Husk/Angel, Caleb/Essek and Buck/Eddie.

15. What's a WIP you want to finish, but doubt you will?

If I've posted it, I'll finish it (I swear, I know I haven't touched the Whumptoberverse in three years). I do have an outline for something called the Amendment trilogy which I thought had some promise, but I've done so many Civil War Fix-Its now I doubt it has anything original to say these days.

16. What are your writing strengths?

I don't think my plot twists are too shabby, and I like to think that I find new things to say about well-worn characters and tropes. I'm also pretty damn good at structure, but that's because I studied and practised the hell out of it. Oh and occasionally I like to think I'm funny, especially when writing for Tony.

17. What are your writing weaknesses?

Sometimes I focus too much on getting a fic done than letting it breathe. I've been told several times the ending to The One Where Peter is Bucky's Weakness is disappointing, and I agree. I was ready to get out of there so I Game of Throned it instead of spending a good 5-10 chapters wrapping that fic up properly.

18. Thoughts on writing dialogue in another language in fic?

Short bits are fine if you pop the translation in the end notes. If not, I like to just say something like, "He switched to Russian [continues dialogue in English]."

19. First fandom you wrote for?

MCU and we're still going, baby.

20. Favorite fic you've written?

AH okay I want to include all those I co-wrote but that feels like cheating, because what I like about those fics is often what other people brought to them.

I used to say Budapest and that's still a strong contender. But I actually love The One Where Clint is Sam's Weakness, specifically the final chapter. The idea of mistakes and regrets and choices not making you who you are is a very personal thing for me. Clint saying "You’re my hero, Kate." might be my favorite line I've ever written in a fic. Sometimes the simplest ones are the best.

Low pressure tag: @fluencca @usaonetwothree @queenofalotofdifferentworlds @spagbol99 @teeelsie-posts

[moved99999999999]

U guys wanna know what I think about that hell hotel show

I feel like twitter’s very tired of seeing ppl talk about Hazbin Hotel, so I putting my opinions on tumblr where they belong. I’m not a “professional critic” by any means, but I’ll try my best given what I know. And don’t worry, I’ll be incredibly nit-picky to suit the internet’s needs.

I’m gonna mainly focus on HH itself instead of Vivzie’s accusations because that's a WHOLE other can of worms to open.

During the time of me writing this, I haven’t watched any YT reviews, but I’ve read a few threads criticising the show, so take that as my social influence bias.

My ted talk is allllll below the cut. Enjoy~

Context: 

My first exposure of Vivzie’s work was her “Die Young” animation that I came across around 2016. Instantly I fell in love with how “smooth” and lively her animation was, and especially the fact that it was hand drawn. Animation like that was extremely rare to come by (and still is) and seeing her execute it so well with such complexed characters was amazing to my fetus self. 

A few years later and I see the first trailer for HH. I instantly went OH I RECOGNISE THAT STYLE AND THOSE CHARACTER TYPE DESIGNS and was looking forward to what it had to offer. 

On “opening day” I watched the pilot ASAP to avoid my opinions from getting warped by all of the key-mash memes and post call-out bitching (literally the extremes of the HH opinion spectrum), and overall.....

I thought it was good. 

Not ground breakingly amazing, not horrifically terrible, but charmingly good.

(Ok now it’s actual review time)

Animation Quality:

As a hand drawn animation that has the freedom to get creative with its shots, a lot of effort was clearly put into how everything moves (it definitely didn’t take any lazy flash puppet shortcuts for the main sections of the show) and I can appreciate that. However it tends to be... rather inconsistent, most likely due to the varying skill level of the animators on the project. It’ll be nice and smooth one minute, and then awkward and choppy the next which can make the viewing pretty confusing at times. I’ll be honest I found myself overlooking these inconsistencies due to the characters and backgrounds themselves being very visually engaging, especially considering how over designed some of them can be (which I applaud the team for handling cuz wow that must have been painful). However, the needle thin and exaggerated art style makes some things incredibly hard to look at. While it helps with adding fancy details, it hurts in catching peoples eyes in the right place.

It’s also chalk full of little details, visual gags, and references that are hilarious to look at if you have the luxury of pausing every two seconds (the news segment and Sir Pentious turf war w/ Angel and Cherri are good places to look). But I feel like these lil details were put in at the cost of some some continuity errors (Charlie not wearing her coat in one shot, and having it back on in the next, papers being blank, etc.) and lip-syncing issues which really shouldn’t be happening considering all of the detail they were able to put in. There are also some shots that have just SO MUCH detail put into them, only to be shown for less than a second. I get that’s the cost of animation sometimes, but save the detail for the shots that need it, because at that point you’re just causing the animators to waste their efforts.

However, I was surprised at how professional the soundtrack and editing was. Not one but THREE songs in this single episode was really surprising, and the variation and quality of each was great (as cringy as Charlie’s song is)

But overall, the production quality is surprisingly good for a project like this, the editing, sound effects, and sound track act like a cherry on top. Of course there are some noticeable drops in quality, but given time and a budget, it has enough chops to look like an actual show.

Writing: 

As far as overarching plot goes, it seems like it’s going to be one of those procedural shows that tries to be serialised, but it’s a creative twist on hell and has an interesting premise to begin with. You can get really creative with seeing how you’d dive into getting redemption out of all of these seemingly lost causes, and I’m sure there are many people willing to know the backstories our main cast. As a pilot, it did it’s job of launching the plot very well, setting up the premise of the hotel and introducing characters in a very engaging way. I was legit really interested in each segment with who in introduced, and it didn’t feel like I was being overloaded with names to remember (which can be a problem for many medias and introductions). The cohesion between each scene is VERY smooth, and I genuinely enjoyed some of the cliché cuts/gags. 

Unfortunately I can’t extend this interest to our main character. Charlie is one of the most generic tropes we’ve ever seen. She’s a boring Disney princess who has a “cute happy positive goal to change her world” and the only thing that would make her more generic is if she wore a dress and cried “I’m tired of being so privileged”. 

(Although it’s impossible to tell, I honestly think Viv is just projecting through her, especially considering how horrifically accurate the hotel’s opening mirrors the internet’s reaction to the pilot itself)

I would be more forgiving if she was a supporting character or someone less important, but she’s the freaking protagonist, arguably the character that has to be the most interesting. Angel’s personality seems to be “flirty porn star”, and while that’s just as bad as being a boring Disney princess, at least he gets a few jokes and has a profession more interesting than Charlie’s. Around the end of the pilot he just seems like he’s getting involved because Viv likes giving him attention. If he’s supposed to be leeching off of the hotel, wouldn’t not care if it survives or not?

(There’s that whole stereotype issue that everyone keeps bringing up, but I genuinely think that’s BS because people are blatantly ignoring the fact that Angel is a porn star, Vaggie is portrayed as helpful, and that the show takes place in H E double hokey sticks.)

The transitions may be smooth, but the dialogue pacing can get really awkward at times. This paired with the animation sometimes having awkward quality drops makes some movements incredibly jagged, and has some detailed shots show for incredibly unbalanced screen time as mentioned before. 

I don’t have enough to give voice acting it’s own section so I’m just popping it down here:

The voice acting is legitimately better than several big name projects I know. It’s consistent, great at expressing the character’s mood properly, and each voice fits each character perfectly. My only gripes are that Alastor and Sir Pentious tend to grain on you after awhile due to them keeping a single tone for too long. 

Character Design: AKA the only thing I have legitimate experience with.

First thing’s first. The characters are WAY too over designed. There are so many markings and accessories that are incredibly unnecessary. I think the mindset for these characters was “the more complicated and attractive the better”, which makes them look like they’re designed by an edgy tumblr artist (heck I fall for this too some times).

Especially if a character is going to be animated, you have to keep in mind the value of simplicity. You absolutely don’t have to fill in your character with markings and trinkets to make them look unique, I mean just look at the gen 1 pokemon starters. Thanks to the limitations of the game, the sprites were forced to be simple, and it was that simplicity that made them such unique and varied creatures. You can tell Blastoise is a bulky water blasting turtle just with a quick glance. 

Many of the characters suffer from over complication, but I’ll look at Husk for example. He has these stripes all over him that do not contribute to who he’s supposed to be at all, and only look like they’re added to make him more unique. The markings that DO help are the little card suite marks on his wings, because those at least infer he’s linked to a casino/gambling type of theme. I would say his outfit helps as well, but formal wear and bowties are worn way to often by the main characters, which brings me to another problem.

They may look different, but they feel way too similar. From the same skinny body type, to generic head shapes, to outfits, the focus characters just don’t stand out amongst each other. Even the ones with interesting features still suffer from feeling generic. I’d say Sir Pentious is a good example of this. He has a serpentine/naga body and clever hair style that make his concept really creative, but his skinny body type, complicated eyes all over his tail, and generic “young but supposed to be at least middle aged” face just push him back into obscurity. He’s even wearing the SAME outfit as Alastor (who's an even worse offender of that generic face problem), and unless Viv has some plan to link the two, I’d say the characters need to stop using a dress code.

A successful character design can to tell you who the character is just by looking at them. You should be able to tell if a character’s personality, function, age, the universe they belong in, and if they’re important or not, and that’s a big problem when it comes to the background characters. If you pause on one of the extras for a minute you can see all of the effort put into designing them, and that takes away so much attention from the main cast. Not only that, but they have actual variations in their body types and outfits, which makes them more intriguing than who we’re supposed to be interested in.

Regardless, this pilot has potential, and if they can get someone to comb out the flaws, you can end up with something good. No one can deny a legitimate animation was made here, and the team successfully executed the start of a story, and that’s something anyone can look up to.

TLDR: The pilot is good. It has some major flaws, but it has potential to be a good show.

If you actually read this far epstein didn’t kill himself.