#it's all about ned and lyanna and they aren't even there

[gazpachoandbooks]

Ned and Lyanna being the closest people in the world as children and then Ned goes away from home and by the time they meet again they're almost grown but still so young and the distance made them grow into strangers to one another and the pure blinding love is all that remains now because they don't truly know each other anymore and they get trapped in their personal hell and the other isn't there to save them. And yet that love remains. And yet both of them end up having a child that is literally the other's doppelgänger and their children love each other more than anything in the world and they get separated too but this time distance isn't enough this time they've suffered and changed and grieved and they still would know each other's heart better than their own and Ned and Lyanna aren't there to see it but also they are somehow they're sown into everything that happens to them and everything they do and I made myself cry

[swordsandarms]

I think a big part of equalling "Stark looks" with plainness or even straight up ugliness is because THE in-house remaining Stark for the sake of reference is Ned, and Ned is notably plain. But the thing about that is he seems to have been an outlier at that. He and his siblings all had the "Stark looks", coming from a marriage of two Stark cousins.

Truth be told, Ned is rather ascertained by Catelyn as merely "shortER and plainER" than Brandon, but Brandon was the desirable fuckboi of the North back in the day. Lyanna, likewise, isn't only described as pretty only by Northern relatives, but also by a Southern marriage pretender with notable wandering eyes for anything pretty, and even an indifferent Lannister just putting it out there as some off-handed, irrelevant fact. No one cares enough for Benjen to note on his looks because he is an irrelevant figure to the outer world, gone to the NW since near childhood, so statistically Ned remains an outlier as a "plainER" (again, not even ugliness which the author is never shy to outright point out in a character) guy among the Stark family, while simultaneously being the only reper for "Stark looks" among anyone alive.

It would make sense that even not necessarily ill meaning fans would be blindsided by not looking at the full picture. But the fact is "Stark looks" aren't inherently unattractive or even merely plain or indifferent, and that Jon is of course logistically likened to Ned from the outside by default (as "father" and only Stark reference around for most people), but he himself is Lyanna's son (with a notably handsome man), and a young Lyanna is mistaken for Arya in a vision memory, not merely assured by an indulging father.

But, most importantly, at the end of the day, AGAIN, "looking like a Stark" is statistically/historically associated with attractiveness, particularly as ascertained by the other sex.

[buttercuparry]

I am mass tagging this because I think our criticism never reaches a larger part of the fandom. People can't comprehend why certain kinds of fan art styles are criticized. I acknowledge that in our enthusiasm to do so, we sometimes hurt fanartists ( in fact a few months ago a fan artist had deactivated and really that shouldn't have happened). So in this post I am trying to address the issue in the best way I know of. This post is about the way asoiaf artists tend to draw the Stark family. And because I am most interested in Arya I have talked about her in this meta. I have put the meta under cut so that if people aren't really interested in this, they can skip it.

I don't understand the genetics of a mixed race family of starks where only Jon/arya is dark skinned ( because Ned is imagined to be dark skinned) but Sansa/bran/Robb/rickon is pale or paler. Often, 80% of fanarts of every single fanartist follows this trend and when someone comments on it, and questions the fan artist on how and why this same style has become universal interpretation via implementing "death of the author" ( as one very recent defense puts it), the fan artist replies in a dismissive and defensive manner. The deflection of this very apparent problem ( and the implications of following the trend), is done by "uno reversing" the accusation of racism. This is absurd because when it is pointed out that something seems off with drawing the "plainer"Starks in a particular way, the intention isn't to single out and point fingers at one particular fan artist. One particular artist isn't doing this thing. The finger is being pointed at the trend of the style that dominates asoiaf fan art. Does this not strike anyone as odd that in 80% of these text interpreted fanart produced by most of the fan artists, the brown haired starks are darker than the red heads? The red heads who are said to be the prettier ones?

I am an Arya fan so i am going to talk about Arya here. Throughout the fandom at large whenever Arya Stark is talked of, it isn't done to analyze her motifs or themes or political importance. No speculation is made of a future that may position her in an office of considerable political power. No, fandom at large talks of Arya as if she were a brute, who kills people needlessly ( see raceforironthrone's meta on how the harrenhal guard didn't need to be killed), and is in need for constant supervision because she is volatile and therefore politically incompetent. There is also this running criticism of Arya Stans using too pretty face casts for her or yassifying her in fanarts, because to the larger fandom Arya is the ugly one. Now here's the thing, the slogan of let little girls be ugly isn't preached for Lyanna Stark. No one is saying let this dead teen be ugly even when Grrm in explicit terms has said Arya looks like Lyanna. No for some reason even when numerous characters talk of Arya looking like and behaving like Lyanna, the fandom at large only acknowledges that she has a spirit and sense of justice similar to Lyanna's. But they would bend over backwards to negate anything that says Arya looks like Lyanna. Why is that?

Then anything relating to Arya being married or having an heterosexual relationship and children born out of the relationship is mocked. I remember a poll where someone very cheekily gave an option specifying that Arya having non bastard kids with Gendry. I don't know if I had read it wrong but the way it was worded- using the term non bastard children...to me it personally seemed like a jab at what arya Stans speculate about Arya possibly marrying and having a family of her own.

I don't think there is anything woke or anything traditionally disruptive in trying to dismiss any and all possibilities of a GNC woman marrying a man and having kids. Sure on the surface, lumping on Arya various sexual identities other than heterosexuality and theorizing that she wouldn't want to have the whole husband/kids routine is very diversifying but if one is to go beyond the surface, then what is to be said about the hesitance of even considering that a GNC woman might enter a heterosexual relationship? What aesthetics prevent people from considering a GNC woman having a regular shmegular life? A GNC woman's sexuality perhaps isn't affecting her gender noncorfomity. ( this isn't to say that a fan can't see or project onto arya their own reality/identities that make them resonate with her, I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the fandom blatantly ignoring Arya checking Gendry out and how much throughout the text family plays a significant role in her storyline. Her one "no that's sansa" cannot dismiss the possibility of her wanting to have a family in her twenties, especially as someone in whose story family plays a core theme.) ( there is also another sensuous scene in the bathhouse with jaqen but uhh...yeah I am not really sure how to talk about it).

So all in all a girl considered ugly by the fandom is often treated as being sexless,and is considered a volatile hotheaded brute and this girl when drawn with her sister is drawn considerably darker. Does this not strike anyone as alarming? Also where there is a discourse on if Arya is ugly or pretty, there is no doubt that Sansa is the prettiest of all the Starks, even Catelyn. Why is it that in the interpretation or via death of the author', Sansa is never drawn darker than Arya? In a mixed family why is Sansa never shown with a darker skin than the rest of brown haired/ red haired starks, not once? Individual interpretation and yet it seems like these individual interpretations have been same all through these years. Now yeah, Lyanna is drawn with darker skin sure but then again her looking like Arya is dismissed and it seems like there is a tendency to connect her with Sansa. Any criticism in this exercise is once again mocked or dismissed.

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

This escalated a lot, (which was a good distraction from everything so I'm taking that as a good thing), so now I have to give:

Warnings: Discussions and mentions of all the horrible things we warn for in Theon's Plotline, particularly the ones about depersonhood, sexual violence, casual violence, classism, and so on and so on + a few suicide jokes and links to artistic depictions of the aftermath of rape.

I moved a few weeks ago and haven't been able to unpack because I got injured during the moving and my other arm is also fucked up because of something else that happened this year and today I finally got to clean around and actually do stuff and arrange my room and I started with my book shelf, which obviously means I didn't actually do much because I just started rereading whatever book I hadn't seen in a while got to my hands. And after realising that I certainly have a type for narratives and characters I started thinking about Hannah from Until Dawn and how amazing it was to have a dead female character with little to no characterisation that subverted the "haunt the narrative" thing we see in many of the asoiaf girls from the dead ladies club and yeah I am thinking about Kyra again and that is not a good mentality.

Elia and Lyanna are given a personality and a face through those who loved them, they feel real because the pain of those who mourn them feels real. Even Joanna Lannister gets some of that through what little we find out of her.

Kyra is a dead lady but she’s not a member of the Dead Ladies Club™. She doesn’t get that privilege. The only person who thinks of her is Theon and it is not done lovingly.

Kyra has a personality we are not privy too. She is a satellite character that is mentioned exclusively in relation to Theon, even in the exception of Bran's POV. Her existence is conditioned to Theon.

Jeyne Poole, although often called one, isn't a satellite character. From the very beginning of the story she is already a presence in multiple POV character's lives, even if her role in the story and her characterisation is weak; She is Sansa's friend, Arya's bully, even Catelyn mentions her and in relation to Robb, but we don't ever see her interacting with her father and none of those characters seems very concerned of her well-being. I don't even know if Ned was planning on sending her with Arya & Sansa or if she was supposed to stay with her father. She later ascends a bit by becoming a secondary but fundamental character in Theon's POV and the Northern plot.

Kyra however is a blank page with a name. This isn't meant as something derogatory. I still have flashbacks of my 2016 experience in this fandom and the way the only kyra stan I ever met would wage a war on jeyne p fans. This isn't my intention.

With exception of Theon there are four other characters that are mentioned to have interacted with her.

Bessa, another serving wench who is implied to have participated on a threesome with her and Theon some time before Bran V, AGOT (Oooh she and Theon were bi4bi!)

Wex Pyke, is mentioned to have slept at the foot of Theon's bed, a bed on which Kyra slept as well. (Oooh Dog imagery and the implied possible witnessing of rape!)

Ramsay Snow...not going to write that. We all know what happened.

Ben Bones, "[...] Even if we do escape, Lord Ramsay will hunt us down, him and Ben Bones and the girls." generalised statement by Theon during his escape with Jeyne. Ben Bones isn't mentioned in relation to Kyra and him being caught during their failed escape.

These aren't even brief versions of her connections, I'm reaching out with many of them.

What else do we know about her?

Ok. She is a serving wench and probably works at the Smoking Log (Source: Bran)

She blushes easily and seems to be embarrassed by public talks of her sex life (Source: Theon)

She seems like an eager lover and seemed to be excited when Theon first took her to Winterfell (Source: Theon)

She had never been at the castle before (Source: Theon)

She acted as the big spoon as they slept together (Source: Theon)

She still refers to Theon as "M'lord" during early ACOK, even if the aforementioned positioning of the two would have us believe there might be more emotional intimacy or closeness between the two (Source: Theon)

Theon raped her (Source: Theon)

Ramsay possibly raped her (Source: Ramsay saying he wanted to bed her)

She was taken prisoner with the other women and children who were at Winterfell after Ramsay sacked the castle. (Source: Theon)

At some point she managed to set herself free, stole the keys to Theon's cell, liberated him, asked him to help her back to Winterfell and failed (Source: Theon)

She threw a rock at Ramsay when he caught her and Theon again, and missed by a foot (Source: Theon)

She was mauled to death by hounds (Source: Theon)

Ramsay named a hound meant to kill other women during future hunts after her (Source: Theon)

He had run before. Years ago, it seemed, when he still had some strength in him, when he had still been defiant. That time it had been Kyra with the keys. She told him she had stolen them, that she knew a postern gate that was never guarded. "Take me back to Winterfell, m'lord," she begged, pale-faced and trembling. "I don't know the way. I can't escape alone. Come with me, please." And so he had. The gaoler was dead drunk in a puddle of wine, with his breeches down around his ankles. The dungeon door was open and the postern gate had been unguarded, just as she had said. They waited for the moon to go behind a cloud, then slipped from the castle and splashed across the Weeping Water, stumbling over stones, half-frozen by the icy stream. On the far side, he had kissed her. "You've saved us," he said. Fool. Fool. It had all been a trap, a game, a jape. Lord Ramsay loved the chase and preferred to hunt two-legged prey. All night they ran through the darkling wood, but as the sun came up the sound of a distant horn came faintly through the trees, and they heard the baying of a pack of hounds. "We should split up," he told Kyra as the dogs drew closer. "They cannot track us both." The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, even when he swore that he would raise a host of ironborn and come back for her if she should be the one they followed. Within the hour, they were taken. One dog knocked him to the ground, and a second bit Kyra on the leg as she scrambled up a hillside. The rest surrounded them, baying and snarling, snapping at them every time they moved, holding them there until Ramsay Snow rode up with his huntsmen. He was still a bastard then, not yet a Bolton. "There you are," he said, smiling down at them from the saddle. "You wound me, wandering off like this. Have you grown tired of my hospitality so soon?" That was when Kyra seized a stone and threw it at his head. It missed by a good foot, and Ramsay smiled. "You must be punished." Reek remembered the desperate, frightened look in Kyra's eyes. She had never looked so young as she did in that moment, still half a girl, but there was nothing he could do. She brought them down on us, he thought. If we had separated as I wanted, one of us might have gotten away. - Reek I, ADWD

A few things:

1)

2) Kyra's own involvement

I've often seen people take Theon's inner thoughts as a fact. Most of us are convinced that this was all something Ramsay planned all along, that any possible escape was frustrated from the very beginning. I have often even seen fan works in which Kyra knows and tells Theon that Ramsay is planning to hunt them, but when looking closer to the text I find it difficult to believe that everything was a set up. In Theon's memories he mentions how the gaoler was drunk and had his breeches down, which I think implies that maybe it was Kyra who deliberately planned this. That maybe it was her who orchestrated him getting frunk and eventually also had sex with him, perhaps to get closer and take the keys. "She knew a poster gate that was never guarded" also implies that she wasn't held prisoner in the same way Theon was, but maybe was set up to become a slave/servant like Arya at Harrenhall and spent enough time roaming "free" to notice such things. If this was the case and it was her plan instead of Ramsay (who might or might not have maybe set up her environment and conditioned her thoughts of escape) then I think we can maybe add some other traits to her characterisation; we can assume she is observant, resilient and very brave.

3) I wanted to name this section "The Kiss" but then Klimt came to mind so we are naming it Frame 00:09:31 and Frame 00:09:38 of Belladonna of Sadness (tw the links for artistic depictions of the aftermath of rape)

There is often speculation going on whether the lack of something textual in these books can be seen as proof for something else. Canon romantic Jon/Sansa and the idea that Dany considers the Dothraki subhuman are often backed up by this sort of thought process (I admittedly don't believe in any of the aforementioned examples) but I don’t think we’ve ever seen it used in cases like that of Kyra, where I personally find it more fitting. Particularly when it comes to that scene and how Theon doesn't describe her response. I have always seen people take this as something reciprocal and sometimes even beautiful, and Theon internally chastising himself as he thinks of it is often attributed to thinking there was a chance of escape, when it could as well be him chastising himself because he kissed her without really considering how frightening the entire situation must have been for her. Her reasoning for setting him free is that he knows how to go back, not that she loves him or has forgive him. She is said to tremble as she pleads for help, her face is pale, and I can't help but wonder if part of her fear also came from having to beg her rapist to accompany her in her escape.

Based on her throwing a stone at Ramsay, who probably raped her in the past, I like to believe that when he kissed her she screamed, bit Theon and pushed him away.

4) The Girl

There are a few things in that text about Theon & Kyra that in hindsight remind me of Theon & Jeyne.

Some of it is relatively obvious and I have mentioned it in the past, such as the

"You've saved us," he said. - Reek I, ADWD

"You saved me," Jeyne had whispered, - Theon I, TWOW

and

"We should split up," he told Kyra as the dogs drew closer. "They cannot track us both." The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, [...] If we had separated as I wanted, one of us might have gotten away. - Reek I, ADWD

"Stay close to me," Jeyne said. "Don't leave me." "I will be right beside you," Theon promised - Theon I, ADWD

but also

"Take me back to Winterfell, m'lord," she begged, pale-faced and trembling. "I don't know the way. I can't escape alone. Come with me, please." - Reek I, ADWD

He put a finger to her lips. "We can talk about that later. You need to be quiet now. Come with us. With me. We will take you away from here. Away from him." - Theon I, ADWD

and

Reek remembered the desperate, frightened look in Kyra's eyes. She had never looked so young as she did in that moment, still half a girl, but there was nothing he could do. - Reek I, ADWD

The eyes of the bride were brown. Big and brown and full of fear. It was not right that she should look to him for rescue.  - The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

Overall my perception of things tells me that there was a drastic change in Theon's character after her death. It is him who this time has comed up with a plan and has to beg/repeatedly ask for someone else to accompany him. Something I find peculiar is how he describes fear being visible through their eyes and the sight of it makes him feel guilt over his lack of agency.

When comparing his behaviour during the failed escape and the flight we see that he no longer plans on leaving Jeyne in order to escape by himself (and we see him prove that during TWOW when he comments on how her ribs broke so HE CARRIED HER jdsfskdjfnsdkjf aren't you supposed to be emaciated???). And while I find that a very noble development, as I consider salvation to be symbiotic, it leads me to wonder:

5) The AU

So many fanworks often depict Theon holding her hand and going ahead as they run, it's a beautiful image but it doesn't follow into what the canon is telling us.

Kyra being the active one in this event, her having to be the one who not only approaches Theon with thoughts of escape but also begs for his help, implying he might have been hesitant at first, she being the one who refuses to leave him although he is set off on their(/his?) chances of a successful escape being higher if they part ways, all this points to him probably not wanting to hold her hand through it, much less lead her through his same path.

And then I think of Theon's promise

The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, even when he swore that he would raise a host of ironborn and come back for her if she should be the one they followed. - Reek I, ADWD

Would he? Would he have returned with a host if ironborn to get her? I don't think he would have. I don't think he was consciously lying to her or that he would just forget of her and leave with no remorse and never think of her again. I think it would have become inconvenient to return and he would have told himself it is impossible and she would haunt him nonetheless, but what consolation is that for her?

If he had miraculously managed to get to his sister or to Dagmer Cleftjaw, had miraculously managed to rapidly heal and regain his strength, would he have been able to get himself a host of loyal ironborn that would follow him far far far into the land, away from the realms of he who dwells beneath the waves, just to save some random girl he used to bed? Ad given how emotionally constipated is, how introverted, how he rarely displays vulnerability, what could he have said in order to change their mind?

Even her physical appearance, something that Theon, a somewhat libidinous young man, might have remarked on, is omitted. She doesn't have thick auburn hair, which could have made some readers use her as "proof" for him being "psychosexually" (another word most people in here don't know how to define but will use regardless) attracted to Robb/Sansa/Cat. The eyes of the girl aren't "big and brown" for me and a few other delusional people to claim as "foreshadowing" for a future romance. There aren't any mentions of her having a sharp nose that could have made us think of her as a semblance of his own family back at the Islands. There is nothing. She is nothing.

Sometimes we readers attempt to give closure to Kyra through fan work; I have seen art depicting her as a ghost "forgiving" Theon, there are fics in which Theon takes care of the hound that was named after her or (I am guilty of this too) him taking care of Jeyne is somehow seen by the narrative as atonement for his past mistreatment of Kyra. None of these works are inherently bad or disrespectful and I can appreciate what they do and I enjoy many of them (@/ghostlyturncloaks has a very beautiful fic involving Theon and Kyra, the hound), but none of them will give Kyra, the actual Kyra who used to breath and was then killed by hounds, closure because that is simply impossible to do given how she is not a real character compared to those who surround her. When people in this fandom talk about "stanning the girls who suffer/are victims" it is often done either in a holier-than-thou light or in a derogative manner but it never refers to Kyra because Kyra isn't allowed to be a person in the text.

Taking care of Jeyne or the hound won't make things right for her and there are no reasons for her to forgive Theon when Theon refuses to even think of the act with indisputable textual remorse. We can read between the lines and realise that Theon feels guilt, the fact she "and her keys" haunt him is already proof of that, but does he feel guilt for her terrible death, for him raping her, for how little he valued her as a person or for all of these together?

And I don't think that Theon is inherently a bad person for not valuing her and not being interested in her as a person, I think such situations are cruelly casual and rarely intentional. I think most people across their life will come to realise that they should have valued someone more. Our feelings aren't reciprocal and that isn't necessarily a sign of vileness. And, to my shame, I admit that part of my obsession with my unlucky trio of Jeyne, Falia and Kyra is somewhat motivated by my own feelings of depersonalisation and overall worthlessness and irrelevance.

It is difficult to explain, at most I can maybe compare it to the way Dany has managed to appeal to so many woc through her journey. Cersei, Dany, Arya and Sansa are all well written, interesting and profound characters that will go down in history both in and out of universe as such. Kyra won’t, neither will Falia, the Jeynes might have but they weren’t enough and were quickly replaced without many mourning that change in the way we mourn Daenerys' popularised end game as a mad queen or Arya's popularised endgame as a badass assassin without any nuisance. And I can understand why! This anger is purely mine!

With Kyra there is a world to explore, but only as long as Theon is no longer there. We can't give her a respectful characterisation if our only source and voice is that of Theon, if we were to that it would probably be highly ooc. But then again we can't even interact with her without Theon being in the picture. What happened to Bessa? Was she killed during the Winterfell sack? Were they friends? I imagine they were close if the two worked together and also had a threesome. Did she feel fear and maybe a pang of jealousy when she saw her being summoned to the castle to never come back to their inn? Did Kyra have a family? Maybe they were working the fields in the late summer/early autumn and were hoping to see her in winter again. I will be arrogant by referring to the images meme I recently made for her but yeah, Nathaniel Russel's fake fliers you will go down in my memory:

Even something as benign and well meaning as giving her a face, be it by a film/show/comic-adaptation or fan art, is somewhat counterproductive to what I think might have been aimed by the writer through her being a faceless pain. A face can make someone become sympathetic or interesting, meanwhile Kyra is pain unbridled and without any mentioned outer or inner beauty to get us to be invested in her. I might have my headcanons for her, with and without Theon, but I am not meant to have them.

The most common Tumblr tag for the sharing of Kyra related posts is "#kyra and her keys" and although this will be perceived by may as a holier than thou attitude I think it speaks on itself that we readers, the few readers who care enough about Kyra to dedicate a post to her, have decided to refer to her with a concept Theon chose for her. We define her through Theon without any real consideration for her own feelings. "#kyra asoiaf" has about three posts last I checked.

[melrosing]

Ok speaking of changes GOT made… is there any changes you like? I struggle to find big moments, but there are small additions I love. Like Ned praying before he dies, Robb hitting the tree when he finds out, the chemistry that Kit Harrington and Rose Leslie have…. But there are very few structural changes I think improve the story.

hmmm so I can't lie there is a LOT I just don't remember anymore about the show, so wringing my mind a little to come up with something.....

I won't mention things that I think were adapted well (like Ned's execution) as those aren't adaptational changes. and I also won't mention things that I like the idea of (e.g. Jaime's dyslexia) but not the execution (they made out it was part of the longrunning 'stupidest Lannister' joke).

and like.... well I'm stuck already lmao?? I'm not even trying to shit on the show I just feel like it was a consistent exercise in either understating GRRM's work or butchering it entirely. so I can think of only a few things:

I can't find the link to where I talked about this at length but the scene in which Jaime and Ned duel in the streets of KL was a good one imo. I think it was more in character for Jaime to just recklessly fight Ned himself, and a neat parallel to what I suspect will happen between Ned, Arthur and Howland - in that when Ned is attacked from behind by one of Jaime's men in the midst of their fight, Jaime angrily ends the duel bc his man has essentially dishonoured it. I think Ned's fight with Arthur will end as it did in the show (with Howland stabbing Arthur from behind and Ned finishing the job, bc he needs to reach Lyanna), and this is like a parallel to show Jaime and Ned have the same principles, yet each have broken them in times of desperation. My personal theory is that this was a change GRRM recommended - the parallel seems notable to me, and not one that would've even occurred to D&D, esp. given they never gave any particular shit about Jaime's story. And this may sound spurious but I recall that GRRM remembers in an interview, saying the weather was different in the show version of the scene than in the books.... which makes me think he was maybe onset for this one, possibly because of the rewrite??

I'm v much in favour of ageing up the youngest characters. My ideal starting ages for the youngest characters in AGOT would've been Jon/Robb/Dany - 18, Joffrey/Sansa - 14, Arya - 12, Bran - 10. To me they all feel much too young for the roles they play in the story, and it occasionally kills my suspension of disbelief

I way prefer the book’s version of the Red Wedding but I do feel like Catelyn's single cry of despair works better than the book's manic laughter. maybe the laughter was a more vivid image for the books idk

I do actually like how we see Robb's grief onscreen it's very movingly played by Richard Madden. I also love Catelyn's expressions as Robb rides back from the Whispering Wood, like both these scenes are great reminders of their mother/son relationship in a setting where they aren't really allowed to be just that. and like just Michelle Fairley tbh I really like her work as Catelyn even though I don't like how the character was adapted more generally

Breaking the 'concept but not execution' rule just to say I think it was definitely a good idea to explore the High Sparrow as this weirdly charismatic figure so we can see how others might be taken in by him, even whilst we see the extremes of his faith. but that subplot was not executed well at all so fuck it

Yeah I agree that Jon and Ygritte having a slightly more charged romance also works. In the books Ygritte comes and goes quite quickly and I think there is something to be said for lending a bit more gravity to that relationship. I don't think they necessarily had to be the grand romance that the show makes them out to be but I didn't hate it

I might be forgetting other things that worked because some seasons I haven't seen since like 2015, but honestly it just doesn't work for me as an adaptation. things I liked in the show before reading the books feel completely naff in hindsight, knowing how they were supposed to play out, so..... eh

[maid-with-sunset-in-her-hair]

My opinion is that none of the stark children knows what happened to their family before especially LYANNA, like yea they have an idea that both the three died, but do they actually know what caused their death ? No, merely the fact that Bran has no idea about the tourney of harrenhal is really telling and Ned most likely kept a tight-lipped about what happened after the tourney 

Hello! I agree with you that Ned probably didn't tell anyone about what happened before and during Robert's Rebellion, after all, Catelyn didn't know the gruesome details about Rickard and Brandon's murders. But Ned isn't the only one responsible for raising and educating his children, there's also Catelyn, Maester Luwin, Septa Mordane, Ser Rodrik and others.

Lyanna's kidnapping and Rickard and Brandon's murders aren't just personal tragedies for the Starks, they're also some of the most important political events in the last twenty years. Robb was going to become Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, and Sansa was supposed to marry Robert's son and become the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, so they needed to know about Robert's Rebellion to function in their upcoming political positions.

It makes sense that Bran only knows the barebones of the situation, because he's eight years old, but Theon knows about the Tourney at Harrenhal:

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. (ACOK Theon V)

Jon probably also knows about Lyanna being kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar, otherwise the revelation of his true parentage will have to include an history lesson 😂

Basically, Robb, Jon and Sansa know the basic historical facts about Robert's Rebellion even if they don't have all the details, Arya and Bran probably know that their family members died during it or maybe that they were killed by the Targaryens.

[catofadifferentcolor]

Terrible Fic Idea #72: Game of Thrones, but make it rags to riches

For all being a bastard in Westeros is not ideal, being the acknowledged natural son of the Warden of the North is a pretty good life. Sure, your food and clothing may not be as good as your trueborn siblings and your stepmother may hate you, but it could very easily be worse. As with many things, the wealth gap makes a difference here too.

So naturally I thought: why not take that all away? Or: What if a female Jon Snow was raised by her mother's maid?

Aka: The People's Queen Fic

Just imagine it:

Lyanna is just that much more stubborn than canon. She manages to grin and bear it through the first few hours of labor, giving no sign to her captors she's about to give birth. She calls for her maid - Myria Sand, a Dornish woman only a few months older than herself - only when the urge to push becomes too much.

She gives birth in silence to a daughter, biting back all her screams until her lips and tongue are bloody. Even if it wasn't clear Lyanna had lost too much blood, she wants better than what Rhaegar had planned for the babe. Lyanna urges her maid to take the child and escape.

Ned arrives at the Tower of Joy to find the remaining Kingsguard burying his sister. Thinking they killed her to hide their prince's secret, he flies into such a rage his bannermen would later say it was as if the spirit of Brandon overtook him. He takes his sister's bones north without ever learning of the child she carried.

Meanwhile, Myria gets as far from the Tower of Joy as possible. She has no idea who the lady in the tower was, only that she was being held against her will and her captors called her Lya. She names Lya's daughter Lynesse, thinking the names are similar enough to honor the woman she barely knew, but who gave everything to protect her child, and eventually finds her way to Oldtown.

Myria takes up service at the Scribe's Hearth and raises Lynesse as her own. It's a hard life, but it's loving, and several of the apprentices dote on little Lynesse, passing her sweets and teaching her to read and draw and do sums.

One of those apprentices is another Dornish bastard, Olyvar - a man a little older than Myria whose father, Nymor Lyons, is a minor lord sworn to House Uller - who has earned six iron links studying bladesmithing. He ends up leaving the Citadel to become a swordsmith in Oldtown and marries Myria in the middle of the Greyjoy Rebellion. He never treats Lynesse as anything other than his own.

Life gets a little less hard after that, but it's still hard work. Lynesse helps as she can as she grows older, but in the end its her drawings - including beautiful, functional designs for hilts - that end up getting attention, especially after her stepfather starts incorporating them into his work.

Meanwhile, canon proceeds apace elsewhere. Jon Arryn dies, Ned Stark is beheaded, the War of Five Kings rages. Prince Oberyn is killed by the Mountain... and Olyvar's father, who was part of Oberyn's retinue, tries to kill the Mountain in revenge. This goes poorly, leaving Olyvar's aging grandfather, Lord Lyons, without an heir. Lacking other options, he recalls Olyvar home and starts training him for the position.

Olyvar is not a bad student, merely disinterested in things that aren't swords. Lynesse, however, eagerly soaks up everything that her grandfather has to teach - though her main interest will always be in drawing and sculpture.

After a few month's preparation, Olyvar and his family are presented to Prince Doran. It is a Cinderella moment without a glass slipper.

Doran takes one look at Lynesse, sees Stark, and the wheels in his head start turning so fast they smoke.

His son Quentyn takes one look at Lynesse and falls into immediate lust, but is gentlemen enough to realize that his attentions make her uncomfortable and so leaves off his flirtations fairly quickly. They end up falling into a conversation about blade design through the known world - and, somewhat amazingly given their backgrounds, end the event as friends.

Doran encourages Quentyn's friendship with Lynesse and suggests to Lord Lyons that his granddaughter might benefit from time spent in the Lady Myrcella's retinue. Meanwhile, Doran has his agents start researching Lynesse's background - and what he finds surpasses his wildest dreams.

But while that plays out, the War of Five Kings continues. It's less major battle and more general chaos, with rule of law stretching only so far as each local lord cares to hold it. Dorne is an island of peace amid the storm and is waiting for the moment Daenerys makes landfall.

No one is more surprised than Quentyn when he's told to go to Dragonstone and present Lynesse as the queen's niece - except for perhaps Lynesse herself. Daenerys is suspicious at first, but the evidence is convincing - and, more importantly, a female relative is less threatening to her claim to the throne and thus can be safely considered family. Once they get over the awkwardness, they become fast friends.

Daenerys carries out her reconquest of Westeros and is eventually crowned Queen. Lynesse remains her heir until such time as she has children of her own... which seems less and less likely as time goes on.

When Dany dies in her 40s after a riding accident, Lynesse is crowned queen of the Seven Kingdoms. She is, perhaps not as powerful a ruler as Dany, but she is competent and fair and aware of her own limitations, and surrounds herself with good advisors. The commonfolk adore her, and for this and her childhood she is often called The People's Queen.

Bonuses include: 1) A slow burn romance between Quentyn and Lynesse. This should characterized by immediate lust on Quentyn's part which turns into genuine love and affection as he gets to know Lynesse over the course of two or three years. His attentions should make Lynesse uncomfortable from the start, but his efforts not to pressure her are a pleasant change after years of being a nothing more than a pretty bastard. Her feelings for Quentyn grow slowly, and its not until Dany suggests she marry Willas Tyrell to secure the Reach that Lynesse realizes she's in love with her best friend; 2) A lot of emphasis on what it's like to grow up as one of the common folk, without the advantages being a lord's bastard might grant. This should continue to a lesser degree after Myria and Olyvar marry, but still be a lingering presence in the back of Lynesse's mind well into Dany's reconquest; 3) Swords. Just everything there is to know about bladesmithing, complete with Olyver's attempts to recreate Valyerian steel. He never quite succeeds even with access to dragons, but comes up with a variant of Toledo steel during the reconquest (called Lyons steel) that makes his house very wealthy; and 4) Lynesse always considering Myria and Olyvar her true parents, and honoring them above all others.

And that's all I have. As always, feel free to adopt this bun, just link back to me if you do.

Other Jon Snow Headcanons: Aelor the Accursed | Aegon the Adopted | Aegon the Undying | Aegon the Unyielding | Aemon the Adventurous | Baelor the Brave | Bastard of Winterfell | Daemon the Destroyer | Daena the Dreamer | Daeron the Desired | Dyanna the Defiant | Elia the Magnificent | Jon the Fair | Jon Whitefyre | King of the Ashes | Lady Arryn | Lady Baratheon | Lady Lannister | Lady Stark | Lord of the Dance | Maekar the Maester | People's Queen | Prince Consort | Prince of Summerhall | Queen Mother | Queen of Nightingales | Red Queen | Rhaegar the Righteous | River Queen | Shiera Snowbird | Visneya the Victorious | Wolf Queen

More Terrible Fic Ideas

[katshuya]

Rhaegar wasn't perfect to Elia. He was just complex. You people just don't get it.

Rhaegar was a poor depressed prince and a good husband and father, and his bad actions were not so bad because he was depressed. It's enough that he didn't force Elia to have a third child, so that means he was a good husband. Even though he impregnated her during recovery or immediately after recovery of six months being bed ridden and you people just don't understand complexity and that when you are in a political marriage, cheating isn't cheating.

Thank you, Rhaegar Targaryen, for not being the complete asshole you could have been. What a great husband, father, and man you were that you never ended up killing her by childbirth.

For such kindness, you deserved to go love someone else on your wife whose health was ruined further because of you and your prophecy. Nothing is wrong with cheating on your politically married wife. It's not cheating.

You all are just idiots who can't get through your heads that he did enough. I'm sorry the poor, complex man in his twenties didn't win you jerks.

So what if he got her pregnant when she was just out of recovery? He was a man with purpose! He needed to fulfill the prophecy. It was either that or she/her health forced him to find another woman. It wasn't his fault. He tried people! He tried! He needed the third baby.

And he ended up right! This child had to be from Lyanna. Jon snow is Lyanna's child. It's not so good for Elia and all the sacrifices she made, but it's what it is. Rhaegar was right. He tried with Elia. It was not his fault, he needed to save the world. Elia's humiliation and sacrifices were just small prices.

We have little evidence that there was anything romantic between him and Elia.....we also don't have an actual evidence that there was no attraction or a romance blooming but still! The point is he did enough by not killing her.

I mean we don't see Naerys or Cersie let their husbands have other women willingly just because they don't like them but so what?

Selsye also doesn't tell Stannis to go get his boy from any other woman but so what?

Most marriages in Westeros, including Ned and Cat's, were political, and some ended in love other weren't happy about their cheating husbands.

But Rhaegar was different, you idiots. He fought for his family over a war he very much had huge hand in starting it and hid with his girl for more than a year while his family were very safe at dragonstone that belongs to his mad father with all the obedient knights in there.

He was a depressed man in his tweenties who finally fell in love after less than 2 years of his political marriage that in no way was or could have ended in romance like Cat and Ned's. Let that sink in.

Rhaenys whom he left when she was less than 2 and returned when she was about 3 knew Rhaegar well and loved him! She didn't know what he did and was doing considering she was only about 3 but she loved a man that was nice to her. That is enough evidence!

So what if he wasn't perfect to Elia? He was a depressed man in his tweenties who deserved love you heartless brainless jerks. You will never get brain. See how I so smartly recognized his mistakes and that he wasn't perfect, but I still know he was complex! Likable! You people can't recognize a complex jerk character when you see one. You aren't thoughtful.

I can't believe it goes over your heads. God, this fandom is impossible.

Rhaegar and lyanna are different. They are special love story.

LOL!

[rise-my-angel]

I find it so funny that the North is such a brawny masculine place and yet the Starks and a lot of the other family's feel way more feminist then any of the so called Queens in the show.

Like obviously in comparison to a more modern society, no they aren't particularly progressive, but in the terms of their own world, there are interesting hints that showcase they are actually a lot less rigid then their reputation precedes.

(Here's a read more beacuse I am living in Yap City apparently)

Maege Mormont is Lady of Bear Island, has never been married and has five girls, none of whom has an identifiable father and no one really bats an eye. She calls them Mormonts and so does everyone else. There's an interesting exchange between the Tarlys and Gilly when she and Sam are in Hornhill, where Sams mother after hearing that Gilly knows how to hunt, explains that she once met Greatjon Umber, who had taught his daughters how to hunt and Sams sister expresses interest in that beacuse her father never would bring her hunting.

Ned himself never looked back negatively at Lyanna in her interest in less formal Lady like duties, and thus he doesn't look down on Arya for it either. He at first struggles to allow his daughter to use a sword, but then he talks to her, hears she has a genuine interest in it, and goes out of his way to hire a tutor for her that can teach her a fighting style better for her then normal men learn. And when Arya explains to him that she does not see her future as marrying a lord and ruling his castle, Ned doesn't talk down to her. In fact he has to turn away from looking at her suddenly, because he starts to smile and hides that he isn't at all disappointed in her for it. She starts wearing pants, doesn't spend time fancying her hair, is covered in scrapes and bruises just like his sons growing up no doubt and even in the capital, never tries to get her to change.

He has visions for her from the way he grew up, but Ned is accepting that Arya is different and fosters her unique, more typically masculine traits beacuse those are what make her happy. Same with Jon, who was brought up just like any other Northern Lords son. He enjoys those things about Arya, and fosters that passion by making her a sword suited to her size and tells her just like his father does later, "This is no toy." He takes her interest seriously.

But like Ned, he also never is seen putting Sansa down for not being like that. Sansa at the start of the series is more traditionally feminine, and Jon nor other male Starks are ever seen looking down on her for it. She likes embroidery, cross stitching, she makes her own dresses and likes having her hair done all fancy and prides herself in being ladylike. (Jon and Aryas personal issues with Sansa are outside her femininity, Jons is her classist attitude being an extension of the way Catlyn treats him and Aryas is a resentment of Sansa's femininity soley out of an anger brewed from years of her and her friends bullying Arya).

Obviously they aren't perfect. The North has always practiced traditional inheritance, meaning sons before daughters. Sansa herself tells Sweet Robin that girls where she comes from didn't participate in things like executions and violence.

So lets talk about the typically most popular anti north/anti stark point against them: The First Night.

Now there's speculation of just how prevalent the practice of First Nights were in the North, which is the now mostly extinct tradition of a Lord or King having the right to bed the bride of a smallfolk couple on their wedding night. They could do it with highborn brides but this rarely took place as to avoid causing potential conflicts between great Houses. In ancient times, the men engaging in this were seen as strong and it was considered an honour. Which is dumb. We all know thats dumb, and that this was a gross practice.

But I have my own theories based on what we know of the people whom have actively spoken about it and what we know about the North in the first place. Now this did stem from The First Men, but considering the First Men's records of this started at The Dawn Age (before the Long Night so this is MORE then 8000 years prior to the start of the series).

Now note that the Andals when they arrived some 4 to 6 thousand years prior to the start of the series, they adopted this as well. Meaning this was not strictly a Northern thing, but more like a then culturally accepted thing. Much like how slavery in Westeros used to be culturally accepted. Like our world, times change and traditions fade until they are outlawed. Yes the First Night thing is gross, and eventually it was outlawed rather late.

But the mutiliating act of flaying men was also not outlawed until Ned Stark himself outlawed it. That doesn't mean it was a rampant tradition. Note that actually, the only Northern characters who participated in flaying, and also are directly referenced to First Nights, are the Boltons. Roose and Ramsay both indicate that this was something Roose Bolton still did in secret, much like how clearly they still flay their enemies when it's also outlawed.

Most likely, First Night was not a thing for a very long time. Most Lords and the Starks realized that this was not an acceptable traditon, and slowly it stopped. By the time the Targaryeans came and outlawed it, I'd find it more likely that it was a case like outlawing flaying.

It was not a universally practiced tradition, but those who did, went overboard with it until an authority figure had to step in and outlaw it just to force that specific party to stop. (Its the Boltons its always the Boltons, the Boltons were literally House Starks greatest opposition during their time as an independant Kingdom).

Thats usually the biggest flag against the North, the First Night. But I extend people to realize that it is highly unlikely it was a rampant tradition that was outlawed suddenly. That would've likely caused a big stir against the Targaryeans, suddenly outlawing a massively practiced tradition. More likely, no one really engaged in it anymore but those who still did (the Boltons cough cough), were enough to say enough is enough now its just outlawed. Like a "You clearly can't just behave like a civilized human being so now being a FREAK is illegal, grow up."

Female warriors are more common. No one bats an eye that Maege and Dacey Mormont are active and skilled warriors in Robb's army, they are just there amongst the sausage fest and there isn't this big subplot that they shouldn't be. Dacey even dances with Robb at one point and its noted how graceful of a dancer she is, meaning the Mormont women are clearly good balances of ladylike and engaging in masculine traits.

Because Northerners in universe have a reputation of being cold, stern, rigid, and uptight, I think people misidentify them as also being conservative in nature. But they aren't. Especially the Starks and the Mormonts. They value duty and honour but not through the disrespectful treatment of human life. The treatment we see of Northern women is much more open and fair then Southern women.

The Starks and the respect they still showed Arya despite her engaging in not ladylike behavior. The North in their simple acceptance of the Mormonts, and how the women run the island and do not confine themselves to that of marriage. Maege's daughter Alysane is also unmarried with two children who don't get called bastards. Not everyone is going to do this with theirs, but we never see other Northern characters actively look down on the Mormonts for these things. They are valued and welcome friends like any other.

Sansa gets treated like a stupid girl in Kings Landing beacuse she's just that, a girl. Whereas, Jon is constantly arguing with Sansa about his rulings, beacuse he does not treat her with kid gloves. He argues with her the way he argues with any of his men, her being a girl has nothing to do with why he shuts down her suggestions. (he shuts them down beacuse hes good at ruling and Sansa SUCKS at it)

Ned talks about wanting to find Sansa a better match "Someone whose brave and gentle and strong". Not because he wants to control her through marriage, but beacuse SHE wants to get married and he'd rather see her marry someone who will make her happy as opposed to someone who would just expert her to make him happy. Arya is only a couple years younger then Sansa, and Ned doesn't even entertain the subject of betrothals to her, because she does not engage with it.

He only tried to placate Lyanna about her unhappiness with marrying Robert, beacuse he was not in control. That was their fathers choice, Ned cannot change that and he recognizes Roberts faults. So he tries to say that maybe it won't be as bad as she thinks, because he cannot help her get out of it, so he tries to help her not be miserable about it.

The North is this harsh, brutal and masculine place, but it does not expect women to be the same, nor does it look down on women for engaging with that culture in either direction.

The clown car show portrays any women who does not fall into the "free independent woman" trope as either delicate like Helaena, or just plainly in the wrong, like Alicent. It's Rhaenyra's woman way or bust, no real argument there. And yet STILL, they portray both these women as soft who do not wish for war and bloodshed and blame the men in their life for causing this strife.

When in the books, Rhaenyra and Alicent BOTH wanted bloodshed and violence and vengeance. They were not just victims to the actions of the men around them, they took part in the same desire for action and war as those men, even if just not ON the battlefield.

Young Rhaenyra is actually far closer to this "feminist" angle they are going for. Beacuse while she is a petty, violent, arrogant, self centered brat, she has her own agency. She knows what she wants and takes it, for good or bad. She is in control of her life, and works around the control the men wish to impose on her for her own wants.

Adult Rhaenyra does nothing, cries, is powerless against what the men in her life do, and would rather prefer peace then being fucking violently angry at the woman who is protecting the man who killed her son. Alicent who I must emphasize, HELD A KNIFE UP TO RHAENYRA SHAKING IN ANGER, suddenly just wants her friend back and has no wants or needs beyond what everyone around her is doing separate of her involvement.

These women have no agency, but the show is not at all aware of that. They think this is the portrayal of equality we deserve.

Women who cannot control the brutish men and just want peace and have no thoughts and hangups of their own that define them as both good and bad at the same time. They are EITHER bad or good, but deep down, they're literally just mothers. We're mothers and so we do not want bloodshed.

Tell that to the version of Alicent that was ready to stab a bitch for her mutilated, now disabled sons sake. Where is that Alicent? Where is the Rhaenyra that said children scream like boars and then proceeded to later violently hack and slash at one because she actually enjoys the violent side of her life.

Where are these womens fucking agency beyond whatever the men are doing at any given time?

[crimsoncold]

Polls, Plans for a Future ASOIAF art series, and some Criticism of Antis and thoughts General Fandom etiquette ...

First of all thank you to anyone who participated in my poll on which pair of House Stark characters have the most underrated/underappreciated similarities or paralells (and for so many of you for taking the poll in the spirit it was intended and staying respectful in your tags- I always worry about that as part of the asoiaf/got fandom, particularly being a Sansa-stan and Jonsa shipper in general)

I was using this poll as a bit of research/inspiration for a future art series I wanted to do (there are just so many possible paralells/comparisons that I find intriguing or emotionally compelling, but i can only devote so much time to one specific art piece/series and was really struggling to narrow down the specific character pairs I wanted to focus on- hence the poll I made!)

So after getting an idea about which parallels resonate with people -and feel are underrepresented or unappreciated by fandom- and holding to the idea that if you want to see something specific or rare discussed or done in fandom/fanfiction/or fanart sometimes you just have to do it yourself ... I've checked the results and have decided I'm eventually going to do a cross-generation art series exploring certain characters' narrative parallels/similarities to eachother as well as a tribute to any canon relationship they have to one another...

It will include a Sansa & Ned piece, a Robb & Lyanna one, and lastly an Arya & Catelyn one.

Side note I'm also thinking of doing a separate Jonsa art piece that focuses a bit on the many ways their plotlines/arcs/dreams mirror one another.

(It's all going to take awhile- a few months probably but I'm very excited and I've already started brain storming ideas)

Ok now that I've expressed my appreciation and shared the more positive outcome from this poll now I want to take a moment to vent a bit about some of the negative backlash, address my general stance on antis, and give a little reminder about general fandom etiquette...

(I've tagged this accordingly so I'm unsure that any of the people this is directed at/could benefit from reading this will ever encounter it... but still I think its important to put it out there- even if only because it allows me to process my own thoughts and feelings on the matter)

(This may at times come across slightly bitchy- I'm alright with that but I decided I'd preface this by emphasizing... This is intended as a criticism of toxic stans... it is not the condemning of a specific character/certain character parallels, and it is not criticism of people who are simply fans of said character in general... everyone understand that? Good lets move on)

So I'm sort of feeling darkly amused about how (with I think a single nice exception?) the comments made on this poll (even multiple in a row from one user) were people wanting to complain that I chose to excluded some pair/parallel that they prefer ....

Instead of taking... what 10 seconds?... to read my explanation around why certain pairs were excluded from the poll- which would have apparently saved them a lot of grief...

(I.e. its not that the parallels between these pairs aren't present OR that I don't think they are meaningful... it's simply that I feel those sets of characters are very high profile and are frequently discussed in terms of their parallels by a significant portion of fandom and thus should NOT be included in a poll meant to consider underappreciated Stark character parallels)

...And then say deciding to either take this poll in the spirit it was intended (once again... to consider what is the most underrated/underappreciated stark paralells? NOT to focus on or reiterate some of the most talked about ones in all of asoiaf fandom?) or choosing to simply scroll past if they weren't interested in the options/design of the poll..

They instead chose to have a hissy fit in the comments about how offended they were that Lyanna was listed as having parallels with any Stark kid other than Arya (not just Sansa- which unfortunately is not exactly an unexpected response but apparently the idea of Robb + Lyanna having paralells was also deeply offensive. Who knew? I would have expected all the house stark boys were completely immune to the unecessary hate/criticism/dismissal that so much of fandom and many arya stans gleefully direct towards Sansa)

Or took the time to explicitly complain that I didn't include Arya being compared to.... whoever? Ned and Jon I think, maybe others? I've forgotten their explicit instructions on all their arya stan approved comparisons. Because isn't it sooo biased of me not to include these pairs because clearly Arya is the only character who can rightfully be compared to Lyanna or Ned... even in a post explicitly about parallels underrated by fandom!!! These commonly discussed parallels absolutely NEED to be an option even then... and if it isn't it has to be because the person who made it is prejudiced and biased-not because the pair/character parallels dont actually fit the poll criteria.

Really this just further justifies my disappointment in certain types of stans and makes me feel I wasn't being pessimistic or jumping at shadows when I listed my second reason for avoiding including those as pairs in this poll (i.e. wanting to avoid devoting space to pairs/paralells that bring out the worst in certain toxic stans- i just dont need to deal with that and neither does anyone else)

...when I say that certain character parallels bring up weird defensiveness/unpleasantness/stubborness in fans .. well these people choose to respond to such a statement by just literally proving my point.

If you dont like this poll instead of leaving comments to complain about it and its creator maybe go make your own Arya centric one?... would that not be a better use of your time? Or are you so lacking in creativity/the ability to think critically and express yourself persuasively that you can only ever complain about the content other's make and never actually be a productive or positive member of fandom through creating your own content?

All your actions do is make it less enjoyable to read or discuss said popular character or character parallels... you actively drive people away from the fandom discussion around your favorite characters/character parallels... which is an interesting choice to say the least.

I would love to plan out fanart that explores both the major and subtler ways the stark sisters echo both of their parents and even each other... but I am hesitant... Arya stans like these totally just reinforce both my concern that such content would not generally find acceptance/appreciation and my certainty that I would not even simply be peacefully left alone to explore or share these ideas without toxic stans invading my blog to bitch to me about... i don't know? How I'm awful for choosing to taint asoiaf things that sacredly belong only to Arya by including/linking them to evil incarnate Sansa or fandom nobody Robb? That I'd dare malign someone as precious as Arya by having the audacity to think or say that she has similarities to the useless female characters Sansa or Catelyn?

I'm a fan of all the stark kids (including Arya- i love the Stark sisters and wish more fandom discussion around their relationship was based in empathy and nuanced consideration rather than being mostly vitriolic and obviously biased) but stans like this make me not want to branch out beyond the more Sansa/Jonsa centric circles or content... because at least with this part of fandom I encounter people used to seeing/experiencing rudeness or outright harassment and who are not interested in behaving that way themselves (notice people weren't up in arms and taking to the comments in outrage about me choosing to not include and list Sansa and Catelyn parallels ... almost as if Sansa-stans don't harass or criticize people in their own posts... unlike many others I could list)

(including me!!!! I tag my content/art as in depth as possible not just to make it easy to find but also as a curtesy to be easy to filter or block for those who aren't interested in certain fandoms/ships/or even my art and content in general

I wish these people would remember that fandom is a hobby and we do this because we enjoy it... curate your fandom experience, scroll past things that don't interest you/filter any tags you want/block content or blogs that you don't like or don't care to see.

I am doing my part!

I am not willfully invading/infecting your space in fandom with my terrible interest in the starks/sansa/jonsa... use your damn filters and/or block my blog ... don't leave nasty comments for me or the other people to see)

Seriously!!!! Don't waste your energy on negativity, or your time on being rude or purposefully invading specific fandom spaces just to criticize and argue with people in fandom who you disagree with

... because I'm not going to engage with you or argue with you or in any way validate/reinforce your shitty behaviour, I'm not going to sink to your level by invading your blog or your posts to complain about you or your interests... I'm going to block you wearing a smile (just one less unpleasant person to run into in this fandom)

and lastly I'm just going to continue to post/enjoy all the characters/topics/ships that you hate.

and if I complain about what you've done or use it to emphasize my stance on specific antis or fandom conduct in general it will be only ever be in my own posts on my own blog- without explicitly identifying you/referencing your blog/or directing actual harassment or negativity towards you ... (I'm not going to make you feel justified in your negative opinions about/harassment of sansa-stans, jonsa fans, or just literally anyone in fandom who you disagree with... I'm not going to give you evidence/ammunition to slander or smear segments of fandom you consider undesirable... I'm just not going to lower myself the way you do... i have more respectful for myself and for other people in fandom... I'm content to let you look like the asshole and never have to think about you again)

if you failed to develope the ability to give enough of a shit about other people to be respectful in fandom spaces, filter and block accordingly, or at least be civil in your interactions please have enough respect for your own free time and at least care enough about your own emotional well-being and happiness to start acting this way ... Swear to god this will make things more enjoyable not just for others but for yourself as well

Now I'm going to go back to reblogging/making fan art of things I like... because it makes me happy and I don't wish to invest anymore time on negative things or negative people.

- Crimson Cold

[reginarubie]

AHHHh!! *Screaming and rolling around in my bed from the updates*

dang my jonsa heart melting did you see Sansa already planning out her future good mother a gift. And Jon being taken off guard by her gentle nature and the pack antics. I'm so weak for this duo. And Ned keeping his receipt is wonderful!! Specially after the attempt on his family's life I'm glad he was aware that communication may also be intercepted.

Now I adore Rhae's characterization another fresh what-if interpretation of her character! Showcasing her Dorne blood AND Trag god complex with their "pure blood". I like how her husband seems like a good person able to still calm the paranoia creeping in. Also, the way she and Egg decided the fate of Sansa and Egg's child while she herself didn't want a political match has me shaking me head.

Hi nonny!,

actually thank you because I have happened upon a couple of comments about Rhaenys which have left me a bit sad because I feel like somehow she has been miscontrued.

First of all, excellent take on my Rhaenys, because you have hit the nail on the head, she is a dornish woman — which we see in several moments — but she also has the Targaryen holier-than-thou attitude which is ingrained in all Targaryen we have seen so far. Even "bully" Jon has a touch of it. And yes, as we say in Italy, they did their sums without the master — hanno fatto i conti senza l'oste — though as it would be Aegon's child he is well within his right for medieval time to choose up ahead whom to betroth them to.

Also yes, after living all of his life believing the Starks had abandoned them and living in a toxic environment created by Rhaegar, let's not forget that Rhaegar basically pit one son against the other, either out of spite for how his hand was forced or because he wanted to test both; being with the Starks is like a breath of fresh air, and he is really charmed by Sansa' charming attitude.

Also yes, people give Ned way too little credit, in canon the man managed to keep Jon's parentage a secret until his death and his teachings are still moving his children. It only made sense that Ned would keep the receipt.

Now, since you happened to comment on Rhaenys I am going to jump at the chance and actually address some of the claims that have been made about her in the chapter that I feel have not been really in line with the Rhaenys I wrote.

First of all, obviously everyone has the right to say their own piece about what they read and are allowed to their interpretation, but as the writer I feel like I need to clarify a couple of points.

So, the accusation moved toward Rhaenys is that she is an hypocrit which she is not, and in brief order I will address those points I think need clarification:

The first point made was that Rhaenys was apparently showing her hypocrisy by not realizing how much her and Lyanna' journeys were similar. Which they aren't and let me explain why imo it is so.

It is not true that the only difference between what Lyanna did and what Rhaenys has done is that no war was fought about it. If you really think about it, their circumstances are vastly different.

For easiness of navigation Lyanna's name shall be in blue, whilst Rhaenys in red.

Lyanna was very much younger than Rhaenys was when she chose to defy Aegon for her husband.

Lyanna, despite being betrothed to Robert — so bound in some way to Robert, though we still don't know in canon if the match had been finalized or not; which in this story we know Lyanna based off her right to not marry over the fact she and Robert had not yet taken the vows of betrothal — eloped (in this story; if most of you follow me, you know I feel like Lyanna in canon was manipolated and seduced by Rhaegar and later secluded) with a married man, who happened to be the heir to the Iron throne, whose wife was still very much alive (and not set aside, as lawfully there would be no ground to annull their marriage) and who had given him two children (both alive; one of whom was the second in line to the Iron throne). On the contrary, Rhaenys eloped with a man whilst much older than her, who had been in a marriage before her, but that marriage had prove fruitless and was done with by the time he and Rhaenys married and whilst it was not yet specified in further chapter we would have learnt that his first wife unable to have children had chosen the Faith thus their marriage had been nullified.

Lyanna told no one of her choice to elope, Rhaenys instead enlised her uncle's help (the Hand of the King's help) before eloping. So there were people aware of Rhaenys choice, which, if the Starks had been aware of Lyanna' love for Rhaegar (or their possibly void marriage) things could've gone much different.

Also, whilst the are gap is similar between Lyanna/Rhaegar and Rhaenys/Aeleski, it is also true that Rhaenys was older than Lyanna was, so better equipped to decide if that love was worth the consequences that may come.

And that's point one, and I think that everyone can agree the similarity between Rhaenys and Lyanna are not even skin-deep.

The second point made was that Lyanna made her choice to love a man and the same did Rhaenys and that both did whatever necessary to stay with that man (case in point, eloping) even against the wishes of their families. Which brings us back to points 2 and 3 previously discussed. On the top of that, Rhaenys was never expresselly forbidden from marrying Aeleski, yes, her king and the head of her House secluded her in Maegor's Holdfast but they were negotiating, so technically Rhaenys did go against a direct order but not against a decree. And in many chapters it has been repeated that this was the only case in which Rhaenys defied Aegon or any other man of her family and again she was backed by the Hand of the King, which is no small thing.

Another point made was that she's upset that Aerys rejected Elia from going to Dragonstone with the children but doesn't bat an eyelash about Aegon keeping Lyanna and Jon at court. And here, again, circumstances are much different.

as in this AU Rhaegar was winning the rebellion, Elia was still his wife and the current princess consort of Dragostone, in full wartime, while Aerys was within his rights as king, to keep her at court, if he sent the rest of the Targaryen household to Dragonstone (which was Elia' seat through marriage) he ought to have sent Elia and the chidren as well, especially since her husband was subduing the Rebels.

Rhaenys remembers how tramautizing it was to live at court during that time. Aerys had gone mad, and Rhaenys doesn't have nightmares about him hunting her for nothing. Just imagine what she has lived through, and what that war caused her both from her own side — her grandfather — and the fear of the enemies.

Neither Rhaegar or Aegon are told to have been cruel toward anyone, thus neither Lyanna not Jon suffered what Rhaenys, Aegon and Elia suffered in that time.

Lyanna as she chose to remain at court to stay near her son and the man she loved became part of the Targaryen household as recognized Favorite (and potential wife) especially since Rhaegar entrusted her in Aegon's care when he died; plus, Jon is a recognized son of the previous king thus without the permissione of his brother, the current king, he is obliged to stay at court. Being a bastard of a Targaryen king, a recognized bastard at that, House Stark cannot claim any kind of authority over him. So, Aegon is well within his rights to host them in KL.

Also... who's to say the children (Rhaenys and Aegon) are aware or guilty of the isolation suffered by Lyanna and Jon?, we've seen there are much more dynamics that we'd like in court, there are tensions between the dornish and Lyanna, especially after Elia died, and we know LF has been at play for some time now. And what if the children were not aware of the plot to keep the comunications between Lyanna and the Starks to zero? , they have lived in such a toxic family environment that they could very well be assuming comunication was scarce because of the fact that Lyanna' choices costed House Stark many deaths.

Plus, Aerys refused member of noble families agency in war-time, Aegon pushes his limits, within his rights, during peace-time.

Next stop, Rhaenys commenting she doesn't hold Jon guilty of Lyanna and Rhaegar's actions, but guilty of thoughts of others, is she really? I read someone commenting on how Jon never showed interest in the Iron throne, and I wanna ask you, who's to say he didn't? Case in point:

Tyrion commenting how much people are convinced the Black Bastard is a good fit — as much if not more than Aegon — for the throne, because of how he proved his skills.

Rhaenys pointing out how everyone was waiting for Jon just to make the move, they aren't waiting to see if he's going to make the move, but when he is going to make his move for the Iron throne.

the Starks are aware that here was tension at court and that people were assuming that the inheritance deal could end up in war, which didn't happen, though everyone is as if waiting at the brink of a succesional war.

Tyrion's comment about how, after Jon apparently showed his rivarly with Aegon more publicly — and his stint in the black cells — started to pit brother against brother as if to test both and see which one was worthy, which in exchange made the court painfully aware that Jon could be a valid alternative for the Iron throne.

Jon himself comments about his feralty and his need to prove himself and have as much freedom and chances as his trueborn brother did + the summary-line from Jon's POV “He had always wanted it, but never like this + The hunger in his chest had become a hole so big that Seven Kingdoms and a whole world besides could not fill it”, that's ambition for the Iron throne. Maybe he was cautious, but his hunger for Aegon's throne and life (the Queen, the children, the Realm) is there from the beginning.

So, I ask you again? Jon (the same Jon who, in canon, wanted to be lord of Winterfell even if not at the price of his family's deaths) never even hinted, in any way, to how he might want the IT?, with all of the points of which above... I think it is a bit difficult to believe he never quite showed interest in the IT.

Plus, people are commenting on how Rhaenys acts as if she's better than the Starks (which is what she has been taught, again with the god-complex of the Targaryens) which I have nothing against as it's a correct take, the point is that, it seems like we all forget that:

House Stark has a double intent to accept Aegon's offer (an offer for peace), they want to basically steal from beneath his fingertips the North without bloodshed. Remember, Ned bent the knee to Rhaegar (even if, as Cat said, he did it out of love and not morality)

House Stark is using the full period of mourning to buy more time and get a better grasp of their strength before launching their plan. In any other condition they would've been much more lenient, remember Wynafryd is in Winterfell, they coul've sent Sansa to Aegon and just let the time pass until the married but letting them been seen as a couple and not as if one has the upper hand (them), which is instead what they are doing.

House Stark again has a double intent for Sansa's mandatory progress around the Realm, a political intent meant to make thei future secession a success. They aren't doing it in the name of the peace, like instead Aegon is doing. He could've subdued the North with the dragons, he choose the diplomacy route (grey character, remember?)

So, actually, Rhaenys isn't so off the charts with her fear that House Stark is showing the Realm who is the one who has the upper hand and threaten to make Sansa a more powerful symbol than Aegon.

On the top of that I've seen the fact that Rhaenys is upset by Sansa becoming queen as hypocrisy because it was Aegon who moved for the match, which, Rhaenys explains why it makes sense, but she was still the only one of Elia's children who remembers the time they spent at Aerys' court in wartime, and after, when people kept just waiting for her mother to be set aside and make a fool of, if you noticed, Rhaenys never calls Rhaegar ‘father’ she calls him by his name, because she han't forgiven him for having abandoned them for the taking for Lyanna; it's human she, as her mother's only supporter in House Targaryen, even though she can see the reasonability about it, would feel upset that the niece of the woman whose presence in court humiliated and pained her mother, albeit necessary, ends up having a big say in what she feels should her mother Legacy. Which is also why she and Aegon agreed their children would marry, to ensure their mother's blood and legacy remains on the Iron throne. It's human.

Also, do you really see similarties between what Rhaegar did and what Rhaenys did?

Rhaegar was a grown man, a prince with two children and loyal and dutiful wife (a wife who almost died to give him his heir) to whom he was still married when he eloped in secret with a girl (betrothed to his cousin atop that) who was half his age. On whom he sired a bastard without caring to ensure her family and the family of her betrothed was suitably compensated for the stain on her reputation.

Rhaegar abandoned Lyanna secluded in a Tower, in Dorne (the horrendous toad) without proper care in her status after having gotten her pregnant at 14/15, isolated from her family and went to fight a war. Several times it is said that it was Ned intervention that ensured Lyanna had a Maester and proper care during her pre-time birth.

Rhaegar, despite having to make peace with the dornish (remember the litle bitch abandoned both "wives" and children to fight his war), kept Lyanna as favorite (compensating the North by avoiding any kind of ingerence in the Northern politics trusting Ned's word and vow)furthering humiliating her, Elia, the Dornish and the Starks plus putting in peril his son and the woman he loved, who lost a child to poisoin or stress.

Rhaenys was yet unbetrothed and unmarried with no children to her name, and married a "divorced” man, childless. She ensured people in the high spheres were aware of her choices and didn't keep it a secret, hell she brought her husband publicly on Dragonstone and publicly fought Aegon about it.

Rhaenys never abandoned her husband and her husband did not abadon her. She is loyal to her husband and they respect each other. Rhaenys ensured her peace with her brother and king was stable and supports him wholeheartedly and never before or after that she has defied him.

I rather think Rhaenys is not Elia — Elia was kind almost to fault, and whilst Rhaenys is kind and generous she has her uncle's temper — she's not Rhaegar and she's not Lyanna. She's Rhaenys, she ain't perfect, yes she has bias born of all the traumatising shit she has gone through, she can be a bit paranoid but so far we've seen it is not out of reason and listens to counsel.

But tbh I feel that hypocrisy is not one of her faults.

It's not that she is not willing to see and forgive other people around her who fought for love, but differently from many, Rhaenys doesn't romaticize the circumstances. She could not forgive Rhaegar for what he did to her mother, and she cannot forgive that what Lyanna and Rhaegar did resulted in almost their deaths and her mother's humiliation.

She fought for love, but did so within the limits, aware of the consequences and working to avoid it escalated.

The circumstances between what Rhaegar did, what Lyanna did and what Rhaenys has done are so different that the similarties are not even skindeep, imo.

I hope I have clarified some points, again you are more than allowed to your own intrepretation of my take on Rhaenys, these are just my two cents as the author!

Oh, and about Aegon's politics. They aren't so off kilter, you know? He's keeping the Lannister in his corner with a second generation Lannister/Targaryen marriage; he is making peace with Stannis also binding their lines with betrothing Shireen to Maekar (notice that like this Shireen will retain the title of princess and her children will still be in line to the throne), he's taking a Stark wife, Daenerys was married to the dornish and he is considering a match between Joanna and Willas Tyrell; Renly bent the knee and is lord of Storm's End. With his marriage to Sansa he is making good with both the Riverlands, as she the daughter of a Tully and the Vale who loved her father.

As always, anon (and everyone else) thank you for the support and the love for the story! (sorry for the big tangent I took with this) and sending all my love ~G.

[lemonhemlock]

I'm the prev anon again, lmao

I could definitely see Aemma knowing, and that being why she seemed so resigned to trying to produce a male heir. It would also be funny if it turned out the entire Targaryen family actually knew pre-king Aenys because Aegon I just told them all lmao. Who knows, maybe Rhaena told her girlfriends later on without leaking the secret. Lots of things could have happened, and of course there's a possibility that every generation was different in terms of who knew, and who didn't know, and things will be different in the books.

There is also the question of how Aegon III found out so as to pass it on - Rhaenyra must have told him after Joffrey died and they fled King's Landing, just before she met her death on Dragonstone. What a roller coaster!

It could also be possible that Aegon III didn't know? Like, I could see the show playing up the idea that because of the war, the prophecy was lost to the Targaryens (maybe that's why Aegon 4 was so terrible), and it was only generations later that it resurfaced through other means. Maybe the whole thing with the catspaw dagger having the prophecy engraved in it isn't just a show-invention, and that's how later Targaryens found out about it? That's a big maybe though. Maybe they just searched through library books and found it again. Or Rhaenyra did manage to tell Aegon III before she died and the prophecy did continue down the line all the way to Rhaegar.

Of course, in the books, GRRM can decide to make the secret less gatekeep-y according to the needs of each generation, so as to make sure the prophecy does somehow pass on to Rhaegar - who was nothing if not prophecy-obsessed. But Prince Viserys never gets told and, thus, he can't tell Daenerys in turn. We don't know what Lyanna knew and what she told Ned, since Ned never specifies in his POV and, most importantly, never tells Jon. BUT. Perhaps he told Howland Reed?

I have seen theories that Rhaegar told Lyanna about the prophecy and I think that's certainly possible! I do think Lyanna initially went willingly with Rhaegar (even through their relationship was still incredibly dubious in general), so prophecy could have been a factor in that, and she could have even told Ned about it.

This is kind of why I like the prophecy reveal in terms of the Targaryens. Targaryens had always had a thing with prophecies, so it made sense to me that the entire Targaryen dynasty was started by one. I think that their relationship with prophecy manifests in how they think their actions are justified as being for the greater good (which imo they aren't, I don't think either Maegor's or Rhaegar's actions are justified even if they really did think they were trying to save the world from ice zombies) or how they ended up misinterpreting things, whether by arrogance or ignorance or anything else, and do terrible things that weren't ever necessary (like for a small example, how Viserys killed his wife to fulfil his dream of a male heir). Prophecy in ASOIAF tends to come true in unexpected ways, and I think this is true of Aegon's dream; I think Dany will be involved somehow in the fight against the Others, but she won't be sitting the Iron Throne by then or in the end. I think Aegon's dream was about a Targaryen helping to fight the Others, which will come true, but he misinterpreted that to mean a Targaryen must rule over Westeros, and that will turn out to be false.

Welcome back! I basically agree with the entirety of your message. Lots of different possible ways to explain the trajectory of this prophecy from Aegon the Conqueror to Rhaegar. A lot of prophecy knowledge has been hidden from us by the author already - we don't really know the extent of what Rhaegar, Maester Aemon or Egg V knew (or how they even found out), but it must have been something significant to make them act out in such extreme ways, so why not this?

Also the catspaw dagger I always found a weird addition. Littlefinger lies about losing it to Tyrion after a bet. Apparently the truth (if I'm not mistaken?) was that Robert won it from Littlefinger. But this dagger was supposed to be in the Targaryen coffers, how would Littlefinger have acquired it in the first place? And why would the would-be killer (I'm not convinced it was Joffrey) willingly give away a recognisable weapon, made from a precious metal, to a low-born criminal? You don't need Valyrian steel to assassinate somebody. People prize whatever Valyrian steel weapons they have; they don't just throw them away. There was always something up with this dagger and it didn't involve the D&D fanfic of Arya killing the Night King with it. It bearing the engravings of a prophecy would be far more likely IMO.

Interesting to note that the dagger travels back to KL because Catelyn gives it to Littlefinger. I'm not really sure where the dagger is right now - I think Littlefinger still has it? Because Tyrion refused to take it? So if it's with him in the Vale, chances are Sansa is going to bring it with her back to Winterfell? That's quite a well-traveled dagger.

RE: whether prophecy excuses the Targaryens' actions. I previously touched upon this here, but, essentially, I don't think that the author would focus on 300 years of Targaryen rule in his work, just to make them wholly evil and calamitous. Perhaps a more contentious take on this side of the fandom, but I think the point is more that they were a mixed bag, leaning towards inefficiency and abuse and finally culminating with them being (rightfully) deposed. It's the classic "do the ends justify the means" question. We're meant to ponder and critique it, not to accept it blindly, but maybe to account a little bit for how alluring and ultimately human it is to be trapped by prophetical constraints - man's fight for survival against the supernatural, his willingness to do anything possible to beat the odds, how he gets lost in the pursuit of higher ideals and ends up engaging in regrettable or noxious behaviour etc. In that regard, I don't deny that the Conqueror himself might have been plagued by notions of grandeur and puffed up his family's importance in the larger scheme of things, but there is something to be said about his logic - if TPTWP sits the throne of a united Westeros when the time comes, it would be easier to command the people to address this threat; he/she would have access to more authority and resources that could come in handy.

[waitingforwinterwinds]

Game of Thrones - 47 EDDARD XIII (pages 484-496)

Bobby B returns to the Keep but he's only there to make matters worse by dying to a boar and leaving a succession crisis for Ned to clean up. Ned discovers he has no political ground left to stand on, and makes yet another bad life choice under the influence of Littlefinger's heckling.

-

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came tot he tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

Seer Stuff or Psychological Processing = 🥛

"The girl," the king said. "Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it... not too late... talk to them... Varys, Littlefinger... don't let them kill her. -"

Oh you think a deathbed take-backsie absolves you of wanting to murder a child? We all know it's only because you think this is Divine Retribution that you're backing out on it, if you hadn't been drunk off your ass and missed the kill on the boar, you'd still be thinking "killing children is a great idea~"

I hope your last hours are agony.

"Good," he said, smiling. "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me." The words twisted in Ned's belly like a knife. For a moment he was at a loss. He could not bring himself to lie. Then he remembered the bastards: little Barra at her mother's breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. "I shall... guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly.

*Coughs awkwardly as crickets chirp* I mean technically he did keep that promise... *stares into the void of the horrors to come*

"- The power is yours, Lord Stark. All you need to do is reach out and take it. Make your peace with the Lannisters. Release the Imp. Wed Joffrey to your Sansa. Wed your younger girl to Prince Tommen, and your heir to Myrcella. It will be four years before Joffrey comes of age. By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well... four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secret and put Lord Renly on the throne."

That would still be how many years of three Stark children married to Lannister bastards? How many years of Sansa being abused by her husband? At least Tomment and Myrcella aren't complete assholes, but still, four years on and we'll say only Joffrey and Sansa actually marry, that's still a problem if Ned suddenly whips out "I knowingly married my daughter to a bastard born of incest and who I am now deposing because he won't be a puppet king for me."

(Never mind he's giving 60% of his children to Lannister influence and we all know Tywin and Cersei would take the mile and a freaking half. (60% not 50% because Jon's joining the Night's Watch so is exempt regardless.))

Kill Littlefinger, ship Joffrey off to the Wall to die of frostbite, ship Cersei off to the Silent Sisters, spread some rumours about the Lannisters, specifically Tywin, make Tyrion Lord of Casterly Rock, arrange an "accident" for Jaime, Tyrion would probably be willing to take Tommen and Myrcella as his heirs even with their double lion heritage, call it a day.

If only he hadn't overplayed his hand last POV chapter... Oh Ned, why are you so bad at this?

I suppose though, he's really only bad in the context of everyone in the Red Keep and Southern Westerosi Politics be Corrupt AF. In a non-corrupt system he'd be fine... maybe. Personal and parental failings aside.

[bellarkeselection]

Dragon Twins

Request from @phoneixgirl23 on Wattpad. Jaime Lannister x Targaryen reader. Reader is Jon's twin sister who was given her own dragon and has twins with Jaime, her husband.

Ned's POV

As I finally get to my sister I see she's surrounded by midwives that tend to two born babies. Robert misses my sister terribly but a midwife whispers in my ear. "She doesn't have much time left, my lord." I'm handed two children, a boy and a girl. Childbirth has always been a struggle for women in Westeros. Some live and some aren't strong enough to survive the process. My sister whispered in my ear knowing it was dangerous for anyone else to hear.

"They're Targaryen's. You know what Robert will do, he'll kill them. Promise me, Ned." My eyes locked onto her barely open ones as she sucks in a sharp breath. "Promise me you'll protect them. Promise me the girl will be with someone worthy, someone who will truly love her...promise me, Ned." Leaning forward I kiss her forehead as I feel her life pass away. "I promise, little sis." I'll protect Jon and Y/n as if they're my own children.

Y/n's pov

"Mommy tell Brooke to give me my training sword back!" Joanna, her older sister by 2 minutes rushed in whining. Lifting my head slightly up from the pillows I smiled seeing her sister rush in swinging the sword playfully at her father. "Take that, daddy!" Jaime enters moments after with my baby dragon on his shoulder, named Flame. "Settle down girls, let your mother rest. We ride for Winterfell with the king tomorrow." He shooshed them before coming to lay beside me in the bed. Flame lays down at my feet as his form of protection.

"Ride to the North!" Brooke squeals dropping the sword. Her raven black hair braid clashing with the Lannister green eyes. "Where Grandpa Ned lives!" Joanna named after Jaime's mother jumps around in circles. Unlike her twin she was given the blonde hair and light purple eyes like mine. To anyone outside of this room they were just simply House Lannister heirs. But to us they were half Targaryen.

My father Eddard Stark always raised me and my twin brother Jon as his own. Even though his wife Catelyn didn't agree. Days before I was sent to Kings Landing to wed Jaime Lannister, he told me who I truly was. My mother Lyanna Stark died during child birth and she had an affair with a Targaryen. Truth be told I always thought it was weird that I had a baby dragon and that sometimes I let my anger out like dragon fire.

Ned feared that my husband to be would drive a sword through my back like he did the Mad King. Thankfully, he was wrong. Jaime has been the best husband I could ask for. He knows how to hide a rumor, that our children might be the last Targaryen's...since he's told me of the affair he had with his sister before we even met.

"Yes, Uncle Ned lives North. I know that he'll be overjoyed to see you. He's enjoying hearing about you in my letters after all." I explain fully sitting up in the bed, feeling Jaime running his right hand through my black locks smiling. "Now my little dragons you better run along and get packed for tomorrow morning. It'll come sooner then you think."

Both girls nod okay but Jaime gently calls out to them as Flame starts to follow them. "What no goodnight hug for dad?" I giggled as they both run and jump on the bed. Tackling him in happy hugs as he ruffles their hair giving them kisses goodnight. Once they're gone I rest myself up on my right elbow, batting my eyes at my husband. "Now how about your wife?"

"It's a husband duty to pleasure his wife...I am yours and you are mine." He recites our vows we made before the Gods and King Robert himself, rolling to hover above me lowering his lips down to mine passionately. Immediately my arms wrap around his neck deepening the kiss. My hands gently tug at his long blonde locks before he broke the kiss tossing them slightly, a smirk on his face. "I love you, Y/n Targaryen."

I pull him back in for a kiss by his tunic rolling him onto his back, his locks becoming a mess across the pillows. "I love you too, Jaime Lannister and I'll never stop." His left hand cups my face while his right hand slowly starts undoing the back of my dress. "And I vow to never stop loving you either, my dragon." After that I smash my lips down to his truly loving this man.

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

Stupid insane bitch, in what world Adelaide Kane isn't conventionally attractive ??? Have you watched Reign ? In what world Olivia Hussey as freaking Juliet Capulet isn't feminine ??? Tell me repugnant cockroach, can we compare a little girl/teenage girl and a grown woman ?? Are Arya and Lyanna infinitely more beautiful than the Targaryens ?

I'm insane? You made a dummy account in order to send me this utter piece of filthy trash. Not only are YOU the BITCH. But YOU are also the INSANE piece of fucking shit in my inbox. Are you really so insecure over your stupid camera of a fave that you need to resort to being a fucking coward by making a dummy account in order to send me hate mail, considering I don't accept anons? How fucking pathetic are you?

You know what? I'm not going to answer your fucking insane questions because I never said any of those things. How about you go back obsessing over your self-insert now and not actually enjoying the fandom experience? You do know the only thing Sansa has going for her is her looks right? That's why you all obsess over how beautiful she is, and we all know it. Sansa is nothing but a camera. She may be pretty on the outside but she's ugly on the inside. She's nothing but an empty headed, vain, classist, selfish, apathetic, willfully ignorant, and cruel little girl who didn't care one lick that Joffrey tried to kill Arya or that Jaime attacked and injured Ned. She's also a traitor to her own family. I hope Sweetrobin pushes her off a cliff, or that Littlefinger uses her as a convenient scapegoat if Sweetrobin dies considering Sansa is the one pushing the poison down Sweetrobin's throat, knowing it's harming him but "father and I have larger concerns". I'll honestly laugh. And you know what? You all brought it on yourselves. Sansa used to be one of my favorite characters on GOT, and I was pretty neutral about her when I read the books, but you Stansa's have made me fucking hate her guts. I hope you all are patting yourselves on the back for alienating most of the fandom.

Here's some food for thought. Arya and Dany are GRRM's most favorite female characters. Arya has the most chapters of any female character and Dany has the most word count of any female character. Arya features in every book. And while Sansa had one more chapter than Arya in AGOT, Arya features pretty central of 2 of Sansa's POV's and Arya has more of a central focus that Sansa in AGOT in other character's POV's, like Jon and Ned. Arya and Dany also don't feature as a camera and they are active participants in their stories, unlike passive, dumb Sansa. And may I remind you about how the direwolves foreshadow the Stark who named them. Arya named her's after a powerful warrior queen and Nymeria is currently leading a pack of a hundred wolves in the Riverlands, ultimately foreshadowing Arya's future leadership arc. However, Sansa named her wolf Lady and Lady died due to her not telling the truth about what happened, y'know, because Sansa's a liar who can even lie to herself! (Isn't she so talented?) Hm...I wonder what this is foreshadowing for your fave? Definitely not what GOT gave you all.

Seriously though, why are you Stansa's all so pressed over fucking canon? Arya is canonically pretty and growing into a wild beauty. And "wild beauty" does not mean "unconventional". It means "natural" and "effortless". But sure, go ahead and cry about Arya being canonically beautiful. Show how fucking shallow you are. Arya stans aren't over here dismissing canon and calling Sansa physically ugly, so why are you dismissing canon to call Arya physically ugly? Is it because you are trying to condone Sansa's behavior when she bullied Arya? You think Arya had it coming to her if she was ugly? If so, it goes to show that you're a fucking bully as well, which obviously, considering you are sending hate mail with personal attacks against me over a fucking fictional character! How pathetic. But what's really pathetic is not accepting the character Sansa really is, which drives you all into frenzies of insecurity because deep down you know that Sansa isn't important, that she doesn't have a leadership arc, that she won't be accepted again by the North (like you really think the North will like her when they find out that she was the one to snitch on Ned, or are you going to deny that Sansa's guilty of this despite GRRM saying that she shares in the responsibility of Ned being captured and killed and the murder of Ned's household?), and that she will never be an endgame queen. Like just admit it. Your fave is nothing special and it spooks you to your very core because you overly identify with canon Sansa, but just like canon Sansa, you're delusional and always play the victim, and try to pretend you're the "good girl". Honestly I hope you get the help you need because you clearly need it for camping out on blogs that you know will upset you and then react like a thirteen year old child. Go outside and touch some grass for goodness sakes, before you end up being committed you white bitch.

I hope this reply makes you seethe so much that you puke.

[sherlokiness]

Don't tell Sansa//No, that's Sansa

"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it.  You remind me of  her sometimes. You even look like her."

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

"She was," Eddard Stark agreed, "beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time."

Eddard starts by comparing Arya to Lyanna but GRRM ends it with Sansa.

 It was as if she had become a ghost, dead  before her time.

Ghost and a Lyanna reference. That phrase was only used two times in the books.

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

This is the most used foreshadowing for Arya becoming Queen because Ned has really no reason for saying this. It doesn't make sense. Like it doesn't make sense for Jon to drown in an old man's eyes.(Those eyes are Sansa's 😜😜😜)

Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa."

It could be a misdirection. Or could be a very in your nose foreshadowing.

"Kings are a rare sight in the north."

"More likely they were hiding  under  the  snow.  Snow , Ned!" 

Snow!!! Let's consider what Abraham Daniel was told by GRRM. There's an entire thread on Reddit guessing here.

There are things about this story that only he knows, and they aren't all obvious. There was one scene I had to rework because there's a particular line of dialog -- and you wouldn't know it to look at -- that's important in the last scene of "A Dream of Spring."

It's a throwaway line that has to be kept and reworked by AD specifically in the comics. And the poster said that it will be echoed later???

We know that Arya's reply made it into the comics. We ALSO know that this was reworked in the show. What looks more like a throwaway line? Ned's sentence or Arya's response?

We also had a reworked scene from the books to the show about Ned making Sansa a match worthy of her. Where's the promised match?😭😭😭

Hahh??? Where is it???