#it's like when people say they're racist for having billy be racist i can totally understand that it'd be hard to watch and that some of

[maddy-ferguson]

some of the posts about the duffers being bad writers are starting to sound like people just...not vibing with the plot and not about criticizing the writing😭 like just because something fucked up is happening doesn't mean it's fucked up that they wrote it

[thestobingirlie]

This isn't just a st fandom problem, it stretches across fandom as a whole.

But I think people focus on and constantly bring up Steve's 'sins'/ asshole behaviour while ignoring everyone else's because fandom seems to consider homophobia the 'worst' kind of bigotry. They can ignore racism, sexism, ableism, but they can't excuse homophobia. They only care about any other type of bigotry if they can use it to prove a point.

They bring up Steve being homophobic for using 'queer' against Jonathan in season 1 but they ignore

The kid's, particularly Dustin and Lucas, casual ableism in s1, when they kept referring to El as 'the psycho' and talking about her escaping from Pennhurst, calling it a 'nuthouse', constantly referring to her as the weirdo or the freak

Jonathan's ableism in s2 when he refers to the kids as Will's 'spazzy friends'

Billy's misogyny, referring to the girls of Hawkins High as cows.

Billy's racism. Everything about the way he treated Lucas. Just because the actor refused to say the N word, doesn't make the character not racist. There is more to racism than just using slurs.

Jonathan's casual misogyny, the way he talks to and treats Nancy at times, especially in s1 when they're talking about the photos. And the way he talks to and treats Joyce at times.

These are just some of the examples I can think of just from the top of my head. But they all get ignored or swept under the carpet, because 'not that big of a deal.'

All bigotry is bad. But Steve is the only character that has shown a hint of bigotry and then been shown to move past it. To make amends and show that he is now accepting of it. No matter how much people try to claim that Steve accepting Robin as a lesbian isn't proof of him no longer being homophobic. As if lesbians are somehow less gay than gay men.

i think because the majority of the fandom is gay, they just… don’t really give a fuck about other forms of bigotry.

they really think that homophobia is the worst that it gets. and that homophobia really only seems to apply to gay men, because the way they treat bisexuals and lesbians is…. jarring. to say the least.

obviously the show is set in the 80s, so it’s not like the bigotry is… totally unexpected or out of place. but i don’t think it’s treated or written right within the show, and i think that’s one of the factors that makes people so comfortable with ignoring it.

steve’s homophobia is unambiguously portrayed as the wrong thing. as steve’s lowest point. the actions he has to claw his way back from. but the bigotry within other aspects of the show is just… ignored. it’s just a joke. or not that serious. the characters aren’t punished or proved wrong. (i do kinda think that’s because a lot of bigotry was inadvertent, and more reflective of the duffers as people rather than because they were trying to accurately portray an 80s society. but whatever).

steve’s homophobia being treated as the biggest bad is also kinda weird to me because it doesn’t really have… a ‘real’ target, so to speak. like, the parties ableism is directed towards el, who, while she doesn’t have a canonical disability, is developmentally behind and raised in a lab. jonathan’s misogyny is directed at nancy and joyce, his ableism is directed towards the party, and therefore dustin. billy’s racism is directed towards lucas and his misogyny is spoken to max.

whereas steve (I AM NOT CONDONING HIS ACTIONS THEY ARE WRONG!!!) calls jonathan a queer. who is not a gay man. while it’s still obviously wrong and homophobic, the target of his homophobia is not a member of the community. and yet, people treat his comment as if it’s the worst form of bigotry on the show.

they’re willing to overlook everything else. they’re willing to perpetuate lesbophobia and biphobia, racism and misogyny. they’re willing to write thousands of outing fics where the outing isn’t portrayed as wrong. but steve saying the word queer? unforgivable.

(honestly, though steve’s homophobia is the only form of bigotry that we see treated as wrong and we see a demonstration of steve’s growth later in the seasons. i don’t know if we can even give the duffers that, because robin wasn’t originally going to be a lesbian. which means the duffers were never planning on dealing with any of the bigotry in the show in a meaningful matter. but that’s a different conversation)

[randomnameless]

Of all the masterful and progressive storytelling elements and themes conveyed by the humanity-defining, unparalled work of art in written format that is the Aeneid, which is your personal favorite?

I'm personally stuck between:

Every woman perceives herself as an innocent little child, has her ultimate goal be to give birth to children and start a family, and will see themselves as ugly and unworthy of love the second they have a mild inconvenience happen to them

Every man with an iota of self-esteem is secretly an evil violent sexist child-liking grapist who deserves to be beaten near to death for little to no reason, and only by either being a doormat to the women around them and allowing themselves to get cheated on with no actual protest or anger or being redeemed by the purity of heterosexual love can they ever hope to be anything more than human scum

Mixed-race people are inherently born wrong due to not solely belonging to a single race, needing to choose a singular side in order to ever find any sort of happiness, with the pain of the uncertainty being so great they'd genuinely be better off un-aliving themselves than to continue to live with such a massive burden

And, last but not least, genocide survivors are not only selfish cowards for not announcing to an entire continent that had just wiped out most of their race that they still had the things they were genocided for in the first place and choosing instead to lie to them to restore peace and order and avoid being killed simply for existing, but also people with comparable, if not inferior, suffering to someone who was tortured as a child and became a racist, imperialistic warmongerer who started a war just to gain more territory and finish the genocide her inspiration started because of it

Replying to an earlier ask I just thought about tying it with this one lol

The Aeneid is peak exemple of something touted as canon when it's pure headcanon, and when people try to explain how the many takes and "points" from that fic aren't in the games at all with links to the sources and all, those people are harassed and cyberbullied because I guess some people really are asses and don't like when others point out their ship isn't canon.

Now, back to your award winning list,

#1

Mixed-race people are inherently born wrong due to not solely belonging to a single race, needing to choose a singular side in order to ever find any sort of happiness, with the pain of the uncertainty being so great they'd genuinely be better off un-aliving themselves than to continue to live with such a massive burden

I would say this one takes the cake, with the added topping that this fic also portrays the "other" race as inferior, making you more violent and, in general less "human".

I recently learnt (you learn new things everyday!) the word used back then mulatto (mulâtre for us!) was used to described mixed-race people, the parallel being made with a mule being important, because a mule is neither a horse nor a donkey but something seen, back then, as "inferior" to both and that cannot produce offspring, aka - again i stress the "back then" era - something "wrong" that isn't supposed to exist.

And Billy feeling like she's wrong because she's mixed race feels really... well, in check with the theories of "back then" about mixed race people - hell, even in certain parts of the world today, being mixed race is seen as fucking bad thing and the mixed-race persons are discriminated against because they're not totally "A" but also "B" and "B" is seen as worthless/shitty.

I know some fics tackle dark themes and dark fics (iirc) don't have a happy ending, the author is free to do whatever they want after all it's their fic - but the way this fic tackles this issue, and how said resolution is touted in the fandom as something "good" - like how the fuck someone wanting to die because they are mixed-race became touted as "the pinnacle of the mc's story where they finally become A again, and get rid of their B blood!"???

#2

Every woman perceives herself as an innocent little child, has her ultimate goal be to give birth to children and start a family, and will see themselves as ugly and unworthy of love the second they have a mild inconvenience happen to them Every man with an iota of self-esteem is secretly an evil violent sexist child-liking grapist who deserves to be beaten near to death for little to no reason, and only by either being a doormat to the women around them and allowing themselves to get cheated on with no actual protest or anger or being redeemed by the purity of heterosexual love can they ever hope to be anything more than human scum

I'm cheating and grouping the two lol

It's the usual brand of sexism, and no, I don't think the pseudo "role reversal between who is an ass and who isn't" removes the sexism label, especially since women still want to start families and become Mothers (tm).

It's as if someone is saying they're not sexist because while they defend the tradwife movement (pure love! Must be pretty to be married! Babies!), they also think men deserve to die and be treated like subhumans or second rate humans who can be abused whenever a woman feels like it.

What is even the point? The message? If men BaD and "pure" women GoOd, if the "pure" women do the same thing as the men did, are they BaD too or not?

And lol@ the casual homophobia, "peepee on peepee action" is bad and leads people astray, Man must be redeemed by womanly love!

#3

And, last but not least, genocide survivors are not only selfish cowards for not announcing to an entire continent that had just wiped out most of their race that they still had the things they were genocided for in the first place and choosing instead to lie to them to restore peace and order and avoid being killed simply for existing, but also people with comparable, if not inferior, suffering to someone who was tortured as a child and became a racist, imperialistic warmongerer who started a war just to gain more territory and finish the genocide her inspiration started because of it

Victim blaming is so mainstream in the canon Fodlan games!

As a rule of thumb, I don't like the "trauma contest", but I've seen a lot of fics were this specific issue - absolutely not resolved in FE Fodlan!! - is resolved in a similar way, the Nabatean genocide is revealed just like the greater lie about the origin of crusts, and yet some people react with "yay you might have been hunted to near extinction to the point you can't even call your relatives relatives and lived in perpetual fear for the last 1k years of being slaughtered, but do you realise your lie made me feel sad because people want to marry me???"

I still think this take teeters a tad too close to the "it's your fault/you deserved being genocided/hunted because you belong to the wrong race" nauseabond take.

Again I need to stress how there's nothing inherently wrong with a Dark Fic, or fanfiction that tackles, elegantly or not, certain themes, and that's not what I'm ranting about here.

The Aeneid however takes itself as canon, is rec over canon and is lauded as essential to understand the canon (let it be through the very same reasonings and plot points developed in redshit essays about the canon, or fans rec'ing to other people).

It isn't the canon discrepencies that kind of annoy me, but it's rather how people will tell you how to interpret canon, in the light of this fic - from harmless stuff like "Supreme Leader totes has scars - so her FEH beach alt, made by IS mind you, is wrong" to the "toxic Faerghus masculinity values chivalry thus BaD, that's why they need to be civili- I mean, Adrestianised" to the various Rhea shitstorms/takes that are way too numerous for me to list, and ends up with people being puzzled when canon!Rhea (voiced by Kikuko Inoue) bakes cookies.

[memes-saved-me]

If stanning Billy is bad because he's midly vaguely racist then what are antis going to think about my jewish ass stanning Hans Landa from Inglourious Basterds????? Fiction works in mysterious ways. (I stay anon to avoid drama I already get 2 much shit irl for my fictional tastes). It is straining to say the least having to explain myself everytime

I'd give antis the benefit of the doubt if ST actually tackled racism but that one vague line that Dacre himself interpreted differently to the Duffers is the only mention of it. It's not a show for serious topics and that's fine but it if you have any critical thinking skills you can see that if anything Billy got that opinion from Neil or is trying to keep Lucas away from him.

Also antis attack poc Billy fans constantly and its like?? what are you trying to achieve. I totally get disliking Billy but making whole posts and blogs to attack people is not needed at all. Especially when its white people telling poc how to feel about him. Its fiction my dudes.

I was just watching that the other day for the like 10th time lol and he's so good in it! People act as if liking morally bad fictional characters is the same as the people who love school shooters and shit. It's not that deep and its so weird because I swear like 5 years ago people were all about villains and bad guys but now its shifted to if you like a character you agree with them. No. They're just more interesting than perfect good ones who do everything right and have nothing to chew on.

It's exhausting. I could spend hours posting about characters I hate but who cares? I can't be bothered and why should I ruin someone's day like that? Get over it and post about stuff you like!

[stitchandani]

What are your guys’s thoughts on some of the new casting announcements for the upcoming live action Lilo and Stitch? There’s been some chaos regarding the casting decision of Sydney Elizebeth Agudong as Nani and Kahiau Machado is confirmed to be playing David, along with Billy Magnusson playing an unconfirmed role.

Doverstar Hi anon! Well, first off, I want to reiterate that Arti and I actually don't care very much about the live-action L&S. We're two of those oldies that consider the live-action re-imaginings as totally unnecessary, low-quality, irritating cash grabs that almost never honor or pay proper homage to the original Disney classics they're based on. So. Disclaimer there. I do have some new opinions as of this morning, personally, but feel free to totally disgree with/ignore them! :) Secondly, as far as the casting goes, if we like anything, we like that Chris Sanders is Stitch again. That might be the only good thing we can see so far in it. I personally think the girl they chose to play Lilo is super cute, and as far as looks go, she looks like Lilo so that's a plus. We can't say anything else yet because we haven't seen her act as Lilo, and we don't know if the writers will butcher the story/the characters entirely yet, so no comment there. I hope she has so much fun! We all wanted to be Lilo at some point as children - now she gets to actually do it! Good for her! What a precious-looking lil lucky duck. I bet she'll do great. Now I'm gonna rant, get excited.

Thirdly, here's my most recent opinion on the film and its cast and all that jazz: people online have been very loud and very obnoxious and very rude about the color of the human cast's skin. Even though these human beings are, in fact, of Hawaiian descent, the way their characters are supposed to be, that's apparently not enough because their skin is "too light". So now we've gotten to a place in our culture where it's not sufficient to be cast in a role with a certain nationality or race that you actually are. No. Your physical skin color, which you can't change and were born with, has to be a certain shade or else it's racist that you were cast and the company is intentionally using you to "whitewash" characters with skin colors that were designed as non-white. I personally think that is ridiculous. If the actress for Nani plays a convincing Nani, and is right for the part, and as a bonus she is a female of Hawaiian descent (because the character in the original film was intentionally created as a native Hawaiian woman living on Kauai), then she should play Nani and no one should have a problem with that. The same goes for the men cast to play David. Which brings me to my fourth opinion: I said men, plural. David has recently been recast. For multiple reasons. The biggest reason being that people were yet again obnoxious and loud online (like they always are) and, because they were still salty that Mr. Machado's born skin color was not the shade they wanted it to be, they dug and dug all over his personal social media accounts in order to find anything incriminating they could yell about to force Disney to recast him. They did find out that he seems fine using rude and offensive terms when referring to African-American people - or that, at one point in the past, he was fine using them - never having met with or spoken to the man himself in the present to find out what he's really like, what he actually believes, or why he posted things of that nature in the past. People didn't like Mr. Machado's skin color, so they were loud and rude and obnoxious and did everything they could in their own free time to get him kicked off of the project, and it worked because modern-day corporate Disney is a sleaze-ball company whose higher-ups only care about money, not whatever they say publicly that they care about. I don't think Mr. Machado (or anyone) should use what people call "racial slurs", ever, because it's terrible. But I also think the public was super weird and boundary-crossing and incredibly silly about this whole thing. Do you actively, regularly go to random strangers' Facebook accounts when you met them in a Starbucks line and you didn't like something about the way they physically look? And then look all over that Facebook account for something that would get them fired from their job? A person you don't even know? Fired from a job you have absolutely nothing to do with? No? Then don't do it to an actor. Why do you care? How do you know what they're really like? People ruined an opportunity (a crappy Disney live-action opportunity, but an opportunity nonetheless) for a young undiscovered actor because they were mad his skin color wasn't what they thought it should be. That sounds racist to me. Anyway. Now they've cast another young gentleman as David, and good for him, lucky for him, and he looks fine to me, but who knows. Maybe they'll rise up and get him fired too for having the wrong-shaped earlobes or something. Stupid. ANYWAY. Llike I said, Arti and I don't really have any other strong opinions on the film beyond the ones listed here. We don't have much faith that it will be good, we don't think it even needs to be made, but we're super excited to hear Mr. Sanders as the voice of Stitch again! Unless they recast him because he's not blue. Then we riot.

[ohifonlyx33]

So I binged Stranger Things season 4 last night. And it was actually quite good in my opinion.

People were allowed to have nuanced emotions and feelings. To make reasonable mistakes or be a little unlikeable at moments, without being totally awful or villainized.

It focused on fighting your inner demons, making and maintaining interpersonal bonds, and processing trauma... Max with her grief and guilt over her abusive big brother dying, Hopper feeling like a curse, Lucas feeling like he needed to fit in, Will feeling like he's been forgotten by his friends and even his BEST friend, El not knowing how to regulate her emotions and feeling like a monster and not knowing who she is, Will feeling like he's lost his purpose, Steve still harbouring unrequited (?) feelings for Nancy, etc.

The characters get to talk about their feelings without feeling forced (with maybe a few exceptions). Max hiding in her music and writing her feelings out in letters. And the only one we see is when she's talking to Billy's grave. Hopper spills his feelings with the Russian when they're in prison. Steve gets to admit he still thinks about Nancy. Dustin gets to grieve with Eddie's uncle. El's relationship with Brenner is so messy and complicated especially when he dies. And so on and so forth. I appreciate that the show makes time for character beats.

And generally speaking, it felt like it didn't have a strong, overt modern political agenda. It felt like it played fair.

Watergate cropped up a few times as a PUN, without making a strong political dig. They poked fun at "angry hicks" at a gun store and Robin thinks being able to buy all these guns is crazy, but Nancy Wheeler (2A icon) saws off a shotgun and the guns and weapons actually end up coming in handy.

Several characters deny believing in the supernatural, but some also admit to not knowing everything given what they've been through or hoping for a miracle. Some people misuse religion, and some of the sterotypes get poked fun at... but it's far less antagonistic than most shows and overall more harmless. And in the next scene you might just as easily see potheads wasting away their braincells in the attempt to escape from meaning and reason.

There were moments here and there that felt like they were written with a left-leaning bias and moments that felt like they were written with the typically more-conservative perspective of small-town USA in the 80's in mind.

Situations weren't painted as racist or misogynistic just because of identity politics. People weren't evil just for being white. Women weren't awesome just for being women. Minorities were not victims just for being non-white.

So what I'm saying is it felt reasonably fair.

I also really enjoyed the villains.

Chrissy's boyfriend went off the rails because in his grief, rage, fear, and denial he believed the people in the D&D group were part of a Satanic cult... and in his arrogance, he wouldn't listen to or believe an explanation other than his own, so he used any means necessary to justify his actions (rallying religious people, appealing to emotions, standing on the graves of others). He attacked Lucas because Lucas had been part of that group and helped them. He was an image of how dangerous groupthink can be, especially with faulty leadership.

And in the Upside Down, we see Vecna, a deeply disturbed boy with no attachments to anyone, who hates structure and time and rules... humanity itself. He wants to destroy what is good and beautiful and reshape it into his own twisted version of what is good. He will use fear and force to make you part of his hive mind.

It's two very different ways of showing evil and saying it can exist everywhere. It can be willful ignorance, born of trauma, or it can be malicious and senseless. It can be cold and meditating or hot and unplanned.

[dusterson]

11, 12, 13 for the questions left unanswered mun edition (imtheircleric)

11 : What’s your biggest pet peeve when it comes to RPing?

Hmm. Honestly it's kind of hard to peeve me off in RP; not a whole lot of passive stuff i.e. writing style/skill or canon character portrayal gets on my nerves unless it's just outright illegible or moves nothing in the story we're writing together as RP partners. And even then I'm more likely to be driven to give advice than be annoyed. I guess when people just plop a ship on me. EspECIALLY when it's with my older characters, which is where it happens most often. I'll be writing one of my miserable grandpas with someone's younger character and I'll be like, "Aww I'm so happy my character has a son/daughter figure in their life :'D" and I kid you not they IMMEDIATELY will go "They should get together 8)" The kicker's when, if I agree, they go straight to the Smut. Don't even ask me, don't take no time to see what kind of dynamic they have in said relationship, just getting straight to the goddamn point. Don't spring intimate relationships on my characters. OH MAN and if someone does then gets mad at whatever kind of relationships my character's in (someone tried to smut my OC and then read his info and cHEWED ME OUT BECAUSE HE WAS POLYAMOROUS???), I'm out. I might also bite your face off, then I'm out.

12 : What’s your biggest pet peeve when it comes to the fandom you RP in?

NOBODY WRITIN WITH DOUBLES OF THE CANON THEY PLAYYY! It's a silly and pointless peeve I know, but I really really want Dustin to meet another Dustin and then they can COMMENCE

THE

CHAOS.

Ok but for a more serious one I would like to Complain and I am sorry ahead of time but I have a lot of Feelings about my boy.

Note, I enjoy Billy as a character, I really do. BECAUSE he's not a decent person!

And I. Love. Jason. And feel horribly bad for him.

He was written to be doomed from the start and condemned for doing what he thought was right. But Billy is a better person despite TRYING TO RUN OVER KIDS??? even if he didn't intend to actually hit, do you think Max knew that??? what if he’d messed up and HAD hit one or more of the kids? think you that risk crossed his mind? Clearly not long enough for him to think twice about traumatizing his little sister. also it's tOTALLY not racist for him to say "hanging out with THOSE KINDS OF PEOPLE--” or whatever like. didn’t dacre like, BEG the duffers to make billy LESS racist? in my books that intention’s still there and it was still pretty,, blatant to me that he didn’t like Lucas SPECIFICALLY.

Everyone saying they were frightened for Erica’s safety because he forced the door open? I getchya. I’d rather a door than a fuck-you-miles-per-hour vehicle. I can kick someone holding my door open. You don’t think she would have kneecapped Jason in the nads if he tried? Also he was in the middle of a psychotic breakdown and You Do Not Act Right during those. Y’all have no idea how upset I was that Jason didn't even get a respectful death. People are all like "duffers said 5 people died well that was a lie lol" INCORRECT. 5 PEOPLE DID DIE. They just didn't give a shit about them. They're both racist because THAT'S HOW THEY WERE RAISED and they were both traumatized teenagers but the one that's less forgivable is the one that was TRYING TO PROTECT HIS FRIENDS? TWO OF WHICH WERE BLACK? Also anyone else notice the cops broke the fucking law and didn't take down his statement which you're SUPPOSED TO DO NO MATTER HOW OUTLANDISH THE STATEMENT IS?? (Also anyone else notice how GODDAMN RIGHT JASON WAS EVEN THOUGH HE HAD ZERO! CLUE!! WHAT WAS HAPPENING!!!)

(Also he brought a gun because he was p sure he was going up against Satanists in the middle of summoning said goddamn-literally Satan. I’d fucking gear up like that if I thought someone could mutilate me just by looking at me. Did we all forget that he also saw that happen? Not just the blorbie morbson? He saw his best friend fucking die but hey you know)

Just. He wasn’t written to be a person. He was written to be an inconvenience that was swept under the rug-- ALSO I WANTED TO SEE A MOB. WHERE WAS MY HELLFIRE CLUB OUTRUNNING THE YUPPIES. If I don’t get more Satanic panic next season I’m mutineering.

So in conclusion: hypocritical interpretation and demonisation and/or woobifying. Keep it away from me. Keep my boy's name outta your mouth if you're gonna slander it then turn around and be all googoo eyed at the other, arguably shittier boy. Conclusion of conclusion: I love Jason and I will braid Billy's mullet. Also Jason was right to call Eddie out for harassing ppl in the cafeteria :P ok done being a bastard

13 : Who is your least favorite character in the fandom you RP in? List three admirable traits about them.

UHM. I love all of them, your honour. WAIT-- Except that lady Hopper slept with in season 1. CAN'T YOU TELL A BITCH BE DEPRESSED? give him a hug or smth don't nag him for the D and get huffy that he don't wanna give you the D 'cos a KID JUST WENT MISSING AND HIS FRIEND SUPPOSEDLY KILLED HIMSELF like jesus murphy No admirable traits no sympathy get outta jimbo's house

[amethystunarmed]

Hit me with a DVD commentary on this passage (and anything more you'd like to add) from Entangle?

But that isn't why Eddie decided to talk to Steve Harrington. 

It's because the way Steve's sitting reminds him of Grant. Grant, who had also been alone at his table, curled around his food tray like he thought someone would once again steal it and dump it in the trash cans lining the hall to the door. The bullies had snorted at him, telling him to eat from a trough like a good little pig.

It's because the way Steve breathes reminds him of Gareth. Gareth, who Eddie had found soaking wet on the floor of the men's bathroom gulping for breath because he couldn't convince his lungs his head was no longer being held underwater. He still can't pass by the door without getting a nervous hitch in his breath.

It's because the look in Steve's eye reminds him of Jeff. Jeff who takes every awful word spat at him in the halls with a blank indifference in his eyes, like this is the way things have always been and will always be. Eddie has taken to punching loud mouth racists, just so Jeff knows at least someone hears what they're saying and cares. It means he's gotten detention more this year than the past four years of school combined, but the shocked gratitude on Jeff's face makes it totally worth it.

(It's because Steve's face reminds Eddie of looking in the mirror when he was eleven years old. Little Eddie Munson, who had a starburst of scratches around the bruise to his temple, where his dad had smashed a glass over his head and finally failed as a father in the eyes of the government. Eddie remembers tracing each scratch with dedicated precision, and wondered when Uncle Wayne would also give him marks to show the rest of the world just how hated Eddie Munson was.)

Ooh yes absolutely!!! (Question is from this ask meme)(Fic is here)

So, this passage in particular I really remember wanting to make all of the Hellfire members individuals. Stranger Things only gives us little glimpses of each of their personalities and I really wanted to give each of them a backstory for how exactly they became a freak in the eyes of Hawkins High and how Eddie came to scoop them up into his little band of nerds.

I also wanted to give Eddie a real reason to go and take pity on Steve. I needed to give him stakes in getting Steve to join them, otherwise, there was no story, lol. So I really wanted to try and shift his perspective of who he viewed Steve as before everything went down with Billy. And well, there is no way to better connect with someone than seeing who you love in them. It also gave me great descriptions for Steve's physicality where was awesome because I do not like writing descriptions.

I definitely struggled with both making the bullying both egregious and realistic. Grant and Jeff were easier to come up with, but I spent ages agonizing over how I was portraying super serious issues. I wanted to be respectful, but still give racism and fatphobia their due weight. I hope I succeeded.

Gareth's was harder cuz I didn't really know what to do. I remember doing research onto whether or not people actually give one another swirlies, because I was thinking of typical bullying tactics and it just seemed so incredibly horrible to me. I actually found a whole Reddit thread about testimonies from people who either had gotten swirlies or were actually giving them! And many of the bullies were proud of it and remembered it fondly! It really freaked me out actually so Gareth kind of took the brunt of that research rabbit hole.

My favorite part of this is probably the last paragraph. It came to me and I remember being like "oh noooooo," and still rips my heart out everytime I read it. I am so proud of it.

Hahaha if that leads to more questions let me know and I'll answer! This was super fun, thanks Mary!

[problemswithbooks]

Having experienced racists like billy irl and enduring their bs “growth” I’m personally very glad that he didn’t get some redemption arc or whatever. Something my mom pointed out to me: would billy have reacted the same if el were black? Racism is so hard to stop like that takes years and years if it was ingrained as it was for billy. I stop experiencing attraction once an ugly side like racism is exposed and I have a hard time understanding people who don’t stop. Maybe experience or empathy is key I don’t know. Sorry this is a topic that is so touchy and I don’t know why but even trying for a character like billy when you don’t even like him that much. I don’t know man why even try?

I totally get why you wouldn't like a character like Billy having endured their racism in RL. Those people are shitty and a lot of media does focus way to much on the white character having a change of heart, rather then the black person they terrorized. That's more then enough to leave a sour taste in your mouth and be happy Billy didn't get a redemption arc.

As for if he would have had a different reaction to El if she was black--I say probably he would, simply because the Duffers needed him to. Billy's honestly a character that only exists to be a tool for the creators. All characters are, but for main characters the narrative has to shift to accommodate them so they feel more organic. You can't just force them to do something you want if that action would conflict with prior characterization (well, you can but it's really jarring).

Billy isn't that type of character. He was originally made to be the minor antagonist of season 2--the human threat that causes problems and throws up roadblocks for the gang, especially when it comes to how/if Max can help them out. He's there to create tension, so when Max is with the gang, you wonder when he'll show up and get in their way.

In season 3 the Duffers needed him to be way more likable because suddenly his character has to carry the weight of the main plot. If he was still season 2 Billy no one would probably notice or care that he was acting weird. The Mind Flayer pleading for Max to let him out wouldn't have affected her at all because she hated Season 2 Billy completely. Most of his characterization was booted season 3 because they didn't need Billy to be the human antagonist anymore. And though it's not a great choice, for a very minor character like Billy who was already built from nothing but tropes it's easy to slot him into a new role and discard past characterization.

When it comes to Billy being attractive I think there's a difference between seeing that's he's an objectively attractive person according to society's standards of beauty and wanting to actually be with him. Personally, I just don't like it when people try to say someone is physically ugly because they're a bad person, because I think that enforces the idea that looks have anything to do how good a person is. I can see that Billy is objectively attractive, while not being attracted to his his personality.

It's fine that it's touchy subject for you. There have certainly been characters that hit to close to home for me and I didn't like talking about them, and certainly couldn't take a step back and look them as the meat puppet controlled by words on the page that they are. And being able to do that doesn't make me better or my opinions more valid then yours.

I'm white so I've never had to deal with racists like Billy targeting me, so it's easy for me to shake his character and see what comes out. To see how he works from a writing perspective and browse his tag to see how fans reacted to him and ask myself why. And that's just generally how I consume and enjoy things--by picking them apart. Even if it's not a character that's my fav.

[thestobingirlie]

I love reading fics where Steve is disabled, be it hard of hearing, seizures, chronic migraines, like he's had too many concussions not to have any issues from it. (I think its because I have a neurological disability and Steve is my comfort character, so projecting.)

But something that really gives me the ick is I've noticed a lot more ST fic recently have been handling disabled characters in a really ableist way (100% not all, just noticed more) and quite often they're just infantilising the disabled characters. I've noticed this the most when Steve is disabled, because I mostly read Steve-centric fics, but I have also noticed it with Robin and Eddie.

I've been seeing a lot of other characters addressing Steve and Robin as if they were toddlers when they are written as disabled, in ways that no adult should speak to anyone who is over the age of 5. Especially when Steve is written in a post-seizure state, or Robin is having a panic attack. Like, they might not be fully aware, but they are not children.

Sometimes, its other characters treating Steve as if he is incapable of doing anything on his own if he is disabled. As if the only things he can do without constant supervision is lie in bed or sit on a couch and watch tv. I saw one fic where others scolded him for getting out of bed to go to the bathroom without asking for help, and it wasn't as if he was recently injured or fresh out of a seizure, he was in pretty good health aside from being at risk of seizures.

With Robin, I've seen her written as if she needs to be treated like a fragile 2 year old otherwise she is in a constant state of panic attack and is always totally useless, and I've seen people use this sort of attitude to write her out of the high stress situations. Or she will just always go off on unrelated tangents so she isn't useful because she interrupts the people who know what they're talking about. Or she's written as if her rambling is a liability and she can't be trusted because if she got caught she'd 100% tell the bad guys everything.

And with Eddie I've noticed some people who write him as autistic (I love autistic and ADHD Eddie) seem to have him just constantly biting people like he is a nonverbal three-year-old who has figured out that their easiest way to communicate is by using their teeth. And it always with the attitude "it doesn't matter if he hurts people by biting them because it is his method of self-regulating."

(And no, I do NOT accept the billy stans who claim that it is ableist to talk about the bad things he's done. like, no that man is not canonically disabled (I've seen billy stans say he is canonically bipolar or has bpd? Like no.), he is canonically racist and abusive. even if he was canonically disabled that isn't an excuse for his behavior. also, I know people that have bipolar or bpd, and they arent racist and abusive. in fact they are some of the most careful people about what they can control of their behavior because they are worried about becoming abusive to their loved ones).

sorry this is really disjointed and probably doesn't make much sense but I just needed to get it off my chest. and I just love your blog!

and i love you, random tumblr user! but yeah, always feel free to just drop thoughts into my inbox, i’ll try and sort through them lmao

i enjoy reading fics where steve’s injuries have repercussions too. though it definitely isn’t always written well.

i think because the duffers ignore his injuries so much, people kinda go into hyperdrive and over-acknowledge them, almost. i think it also comes from wanting steve to be as angsty as possible, which means people don’t treat his disability’s very… nicely? they usually just use his conditions to ruin his life and make him miserable, and infantilise him, like you said.

i honestly think people just know fuck all about seizures, and cannot be bothered to look it up, but still want steve to experience them so they can make him as sad and depressed as possible.

they see seizures as this, like, life-ending condition, and so use them to kinda destroy steve’s life.

i think a lot of people also use his disabilities to get steve cared for, because we all want people to take care of the poor boy. but again, they just over-do it, and make it seem like he’s a little baby that can’t do anything.

i honestly don’t think most of these people are doing this from a place of harm. i think they honestly want to depict steve experiencing these things and being comforted etc. they’re just kinda ignorant.

i am very lucky that i haven’t seen fics that treat robin like that, because i honestly think i’d explode lol.

and yeah, the biting thing was kinda funny at first, and then it got kinda weird… people just see a fandom joke and do what fandoms always do, which is drag it out, and make it so extreme it’s barely recognisable as the original idea.

(yeah, with no character should you excuse their actions with a mental illness. like, billy’s abuse explains why he is the way he is, but it doesn’t excuse it. even when you have a mental illness you can’t just use that as an excuse to treat people like crap, and they’re entitled to call you out for doing so.)

[maddy-ferguson]

honestly byler side of the fandom (specifically mike fans most of the time) made me realize it can be really racist without intention especially regarding how they ignore lucas's character often times in favor of propping mike or mike's relationship with other characters. idk i don't even think the ga does this. if you asked them what is the relation btwn mike and max will be in the next season they'd say mike is gonna support lucas and el emotionally, like as a friend. no one with their mind would think mike's gonna interact with max or will be able to find or save her like wtf.

i know like lucas doesn't get that much in canon you're gonna take what little he has from him and make it about mike instead? lmao. i remember last summer someone on sttwt said they couldn't love lucas and max's relationship because it felt one-sided and everyone was like how dare you say this worry about byler instead etc etc but they were literally RIGHT, billy abuses max and dies, they have lucas comfort her and her dealing with her complicated feelings surrounding its death its own (great) storyline, billy assaults lucas and is racist to him and he gets...nothing? okay, he gets a blink and you'll miss it hug. you know how people are always like "has el ever said she liked anything about mike?" and stuff like that? is a single heartfelt lumax moment about lucas and not about max? and i'm not implying max doesn't have as much affection for him or saying he should have done less for her and i totally understand her situation in s4, i'm saying that the writers center max and sideline lucas in his own relationship. when they literally invented lucas first. they don't think about him. it's like @/googoogagaeyes said a few weeks ago:

Anyways, the fact that Mr. Davies "made up more stuff than [he] took from the show," for a character that has existed since S1, should signal that there is a writing problem. Although Lucas is lovely, he is also underwritten. That is the result of the Duffers and the writers room.

and i would love to have faith in them on this topic and to think that It's All Intentional or to let myself hope that they'll do better in season 5 but they won't! and not hoping for it might sound counterproductive because it's like letting them off the hook right, if no one wants white writers to do better how could you expect them to do better, but also i'm just me lmao. they won't do better or they would've done better already.

so yeahh that (black) sttwt user who got jumped by (mostly white) lumax stans DEFINITELY had a point and that incident made me stop seeing lumax stans as "the most peaceful and mature part of the fandom" lol. stans all the same at the end of the day. disregarding valid criticism because you think it's ship hate is crazy. all that to say that yeah, when people look at max, whose most meaningful connection in the show is lucas by a mile and go hm...what about mike? it does come off as "racist without intention". which is how racism tends to manifest unless you're like a white supremacist who proudly admits to being a racist lol. what about mike? while everyone's free to like some dynamics better than others and while lumax, ship so often hailed as the best one of the show, the one without flaws (even if you ignore everything i'm saying, it's not flawless, they're 14-15 and obviously struggling, if they were perfect they wouldn't be interesting), definitely has flaws, most of which can be traced back to the racist writing...looking at them and being like but what if max's most meaningful connection was MIKE, with whom most of her interactions are fights. they're best friends. don't they just NEED to bond, don't they just HAVE to be best friends, woulnd't it be SO GREAT for him to fight to get her back in s5? never mind that she has someone reading at her bedside and hoping she'll wake up any minute whose priority in season 5 is definitely gonna be to get her back. will said mike's the heart of the party so god forbid he's not the most important person in the room at all times. idk, maybe i'm just being mean right now. you're so right in saying that most of the ga would definitely never do this, they'd probably exaggerate their worst moments and say that they hate each other but i couldn't blame them when we see them argue wayyy more than we see them be bffs. because we don't see them being bffs at all.

people thought the writers had forgotten how to write mike and stopped paying attention to his character for a second after volume 2 and then realized that they haven't and that they didn't but they never knew to write lucas with all the complexity, depth and nuance they allow their white characters to have. when mike gets a conformity storyline about queerness it hits because he can technically choose for himself, either pretend to be straight and be miserable or be himself by accepting and admitting that he's queer because it'll make his life harder in a lot of ways but it'll make it worth living. lucas gets a conformity storyline that ends with a banger line, normal's just a raging psychopath. but it's not like lucas can exactly be a racist society's version of normal in the way jason is, right? he can be popular but being black isn't exactly something you can hide. being accused of trying to act white is definitely a thing when black people are seen as betraying their culture in an attempt to succeed in a predominantly white society but that's...not something i'd trust the writers to portray, especially because the thing lucas does to try to blend in, be more popular and lessen the bullying is join the basketball team, which is literally a racial stereotype. his storyline in season 4 leaves a bad taste in my mouth because their version of telling lucas to keep being a himself and a nerd sounds like having him learn to know his place. it's not the intention but him saying he "never should've knocked" literally gives that impression. and while we're on the topic of lucas in season 4, you should definitely read The Antagonism of Blackness in Netflix's Stranger Things, it's a shame this article came out in june of last year because i would have loved to read their thoughts on volume 2.

you would have to be very naive to trust them to do lucas (a character that's been here since day one!) justice, and with the fandom it's kind of like the classic "women are badly written that's why i don't care about any of them" excuse but for black characters instead. imagine this max scenario but instead of her black (ex-)boyfriend who held her as she died being intent on saving her, it's...mike? is just so "racist without intention". what is lucas doing in the meantime. the (byler/mike fans side of the) fandom is definitely not better than the writers in that regard. are fandoms ever better than the writers they love to claim aren't as progressive as them?