#it's not discourse you are Just wrong

[hearthmistress]

i'm sure this has been articulated before and probably better, but i can't stop thinking about the fact that the main reason buddie fans hate Tommy (outside from the fact he is blocking their ship from becoming "canon") is because Tommy is getting the Eddie storyline they want. Or rather, the fandom idea of Eddie is being played out with Tommy's character arc.

This really clicked with me after I watched a nearly 4hr 9-1-1 recap youtube video created by a buddie fan. I genuinely think (the buddie of it all and their view of Tommy aside) it's a great video and worth a watch! Really articulates what makes 9-1-1 fun and lovable, the issues the show has (especially with copaganda), the bad writing with certain characters and character plot arcs, and genuinely had a lot of points I agree with/have been saying myself since I started watching 9-1-1. Even the buddie of it all, I could get on board with because I like watching people argue why they ship something - I don't have to agree with it or like the ship to be interested.

My main issue with the video (and why I can't stop thinking about it) is how the creator viewed Tommy and how (perhaps purposefully) bad-faith they have interpreted his actions towards Buck. Again, I don't care if someone doesn't like Tommy or has no strong opinions of him, but I prefer people's dislike to be based on reality and/or what the character actually did, and not through the rose-coloured glasses of a shipper lens.

When the creator of the video brought up Tommy as Buck's love interest, they mostly said they were rather cool on him and that we don't know a lot about him yet to really know the character (and given that this was published before S8, that's fair). However, they bring up the cafe scene in S7E05 and Tommy's "mmmm, not like that" line as "evidence" that Tommy's indifferent to Buck and this is where buddies and general audiences separate into different realities, because this moment is a) clearly supposed to be funny/romcomsque and b) demonstrates Tommy's dry wit and, dare i say, sassiness - a trait applauded by buddie fans with Eddie (and they use as proof as his "queerness") but condemned when a canonically gay character does it. The video creator themselves mentions numerous times Eddie's sassiness as a positive trait (and to be fair, they also mention that it's sort of Eddie's default trait because he's a nothingburger character - which I agree with), but when Tommy does it, it suddenly demonstrates that a character doesn't really like/care for their love interests (which given what we know about S8.... hilarious in hindsight, holy projection batman).

Anyways, that really clicked into place for me that the (outsized) outrage buddies have towards Tommy is because he is canonically demonstrating traits they want to see in Eddie/how they view (fandom) Eddie.

Tommy as a character is:

-a deeply closeted gay man when we first meet him, who participates in toxic masculinity as a means to protect himself and/or because he can't (or is unable to) fully articulate himself as a queer person.

-alluded to have been raised in an environment where he had to hide his queerness (as discussed specifically in S7E10 with 118 being a "regressive place" when he was there). Is pressured by both his biological family and his work "family" to maintain a certain idea of manhood, and by extension, stay closeted. Also served in the army, an institute infamous for being homophobic, and undoubtedly influenced his ideas around duty and manhood.

-unable to maintain relationships with women, even serious long-term ones as with Abby, and uses these relationships (either subconsciously or not) to maintain the illusion of his heterosexuality.

-tied with "traditional" masculine interests/hobbies/institutes. He was in the army, he likes monster trucks, fighting, craft beer, flies a helicopter, etc. He seems, on the surface, a guy's guy.

-now canonically out and was/is in a relationship with Buck and has served, vitally, as a closet key to Buck, ensuring that two firefighters on the silly weewoo show are, in fact, together.

-very clearly invested in Buck's well-being, both within and outside of relationship. Has demonstrated numerous times "going out" of his way to put Buck's emotional needs first and to value Buck in way others (Eddie) do not.

-one half of a groundbreaking queer relationship. Cannot be repeated enough, the fact that the show has a main character (beloved by fandom and the general audience alike) come out as queer in a long-running mainstream show is groundbreaking. The fact that Tommy is one half of this ship is so important both to the show and Buck's entire arc. It is important and groundbreaking.

These are almost all things/traits that buddie fans argue make Eddie queer and/or why buddie would be a groundbreaking ship. Which sure, but the reality is the showrunners, the actors, the show itself have maintained Eddie is straight, and (as articulated by the creator themselves in the video) most of what they project onto Eddie comes from the fact he is poorly written rather than because the show was planning on making Eddie gay in the first place.

I read through numerous comments for the recap video and for a following video from the same creator about whether they had been queerbaited (I wish buddies learned the term "ship-tease" because if one half of your ship is canonically queer, no you cannot be queerbaited and dismissing Buck's canonical queerness just because your ship is not happening is, uh, a problem), and numerous times buddies have mentioned how "groundbreaking" buddie would be as if all the things they mention about the ship hasn't already happened with Bucktommy on the show. Their issue is not that the show refuses to do this (and the amount of comments I read that said things like 'they'll never make buddie happen because the network is too conservative'.... for a show with a black lesbian relationship from season 1 and has already made half of your ship queer and made him fuck nasty on screen with his male love interest.... the mental gymnastics is too much), but the fact that the show HAS already done this, just not with their blorbo of choice.

My closing thoughts (for now, I have MANY!) is that in the follow up video about being "queerbaited by 9-1-1", numerous comments asked "if Eddie isn't gay, that would mean he's just emotionally immature, terrible to women, and not a great friend or parent. He would be the worst character on the show".... and like yes, that's the real character you are choosing to stan, not the fanfic one! I fully understand that Eddie is blank canvas for most buddies to pin their hopes and dreams onto (again, because he is poorly written and is essentially a nothingburger character), but no matter how you twist each bucktommy interaction, make bad-faith interpretations, project things that never happened onto Tommy, in the end, Eddie is still a straight boring character. And Tommy is the one who is canonically living out the character-arc you so desperately want to see on the show.

[casscainmainly]

Okay gonna analyse some common Duke beliefs just for quick and easy reference. Some of these are up to interpretation (as indicated), but these are some common things I see that aren't quite accurate to Duke as a character.

Claim: Duke started We Are Robin

True or false: False. Alfred started We Are Robin, and the entire core cast of We Are Robin was already there before Duke.

Claim: We Are Robin is a gang

True or false: kind of tricky? They're technically a gang in the most general sense of the word, but 'gang' has racial implications that I think people gloss over (We Are Robin is primarily composed of kids of colour). Movement is a much better term, and We Are Robin doesn't self-identify as a gang to my knowledge.

Claim: Duke led We Are Robin

True or false: tricky. While Robin War has him as the leader, for the majority of Duke's time in We Are Robin he does not give orders or act like a leader at all. We Are Robin generally doesn't have a leader. Duke certainly has leadership abilities, but WAR is not the best showcase of them. Up to personal interpretation though.

Claim: Duke is a Wayne

True or false: False. Duke is not adopted.

Claim: Duke is intimidated/scared of any Batfamily member

True or false: FALSE!!! There is unfortunately some horrible comic writing, but for the VAST MAJORITY of Duke's appearances he is not scared of any Batfam member. He's certainly not afraid of Damian, Jason, or Cass.

Claim: Duke can emit light

True or false: probably?? His powers are constantly in flux and he develops new abilities all the time, so who knows. But he is much more likely to use light to turn invisible/manipulate his perception of light than attack with them (for which he can use his shadow powers). Up to personal interpretation/fun headcanons.

Claim: Duke jumped out of a cop car

True or false: True, but it's a Tom King comic and he's written horribly in it. If you want another example of him not being the 'sane one', I recommend using the time he got shot by a bullet and thought about how baller it was.

Claim: Duke is new to the Batfamily and doesn't know their dynamics

True or false: Please stop 😭 It's been like a decade since his introduction there's no need to make him the clueless newbie. Also he's a fiercely intelligent detective who makes references to Jason's daddy issues, there's no way he's still in the dark about most of their relationships.

Claim: Duke tends to obey Bruce's orders

True or false: FALSE. Duke sneaks out even during his training days, and for the most part operates independently. He generally has a grudge against authority of all kinds.

Claim: Duke is very sunshine-y, bright, and optimistic

True or false: False. I get where this one is coming from (sunshine boy is cute I love it), but while his powers are light-based, his personality is not. He's pragmatic, rude, skeptical, and often disillusioned. He is an optimist in the sense that he believes in community and change, but he's nowhere near a bright, bubbly kid.

Claim: He's the normal one AND/OR he's just as crazy as the other bats

True or false: Both of these are somewhat false. Duke is not the normal/sane one, he's literally a vigilante how would that make sense. But he also thinks of himself as more normal than the others (at least at one point). Duke discourse should move on from this debate, both these statements obscure what makes Duke unique and interesting.

Claim: Duke designed his Signal outfit

True or false: False. This isn't really a belief I just see people assuming he designed it, he didn't though, Bruce gave it to him. There's no indication he had a hand in the design. Bruce actually gave him TWO designs, I think Bruce just loves giving him outfits tbh.

Claim: Duke's parents are still under the Joker toxin

True or false: Technically false. His mom was healed in Urban Legends #19, but Duke's sporadic appearances mean this was never really followed up on. I have no clue what happened to Doug. Up to DC to SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!!!

Claim: Anything to do with his portrayal in WFA

True or false: False. Literally everything. (The only, and I do mean only, thing to take from WFA is his interactions with Damian)

Okay that's all, I hope that was helpful to anyone out there!!! There are tons of things here that are my interpretation only of course, the best way to get to know Duke is to read his comics. We Are Robin and DC Rise of the Power Company is waiting for you <3333.

[ursula-legun]

idk man i don't think anti-civ shit should be nearly this controversial.

"some societies, including most if not all contemporary societies, require slavery, state coercion, and/or environmental devastation to maintain the benefits that they provide to their citizens. we think that this is bad, and should not be done, and are willing to give up the benefits that require slavery, state coercion, and/or environmental devastation." -> generally admirable even if people don't put it into action that much; few would say somebody is a bad person for feeling this way.

"most modern technology, including motor vehicles, cheap computers, disposable plastics, our entire global transportation chain, and like half of 'renewable' energy solutions require either environmental devastation, capitalist coercion, or slavery to produce and maintain; i.e., they either cannot be made without destroying species or ecosystems, OR nobody is willing to do them except under threat of death - at least in the ways that we currently know how to produce these things" -> not considered to be in good taste to point out but generally hard to argue; usually handwaved with notions of "green tech" coming in to make things better, that we just need new engineering improvements, that we can harvest from the moon(??), that we can just stay inside all the time(???), etc.

"combining the first two things, we think that the production of these things should stop immediately, and that society should learn how to survive only on things that we know how to create and maintain without slavery or ecocide; at least until such a time as we develop means of production that are communal, and well-integrated into the rest of life on earth" -> generally considered naive and unrealistic but still admirable

"no, seriously, the slavery, societal unrest, psychic flood, and environmental devastation are all real, and directly responsible for the apocalypse that we literally all now acknowledge to be happening right now" -> also generally accepted, generally handwaved with weird "well what can you do?" responses

"so we really think we should stop making these things NOW instead of waiting on more far-fetched solutions that will come too late to save most life on earth." -> well now you're just the fucking devil. I guess.

[glitter-stained]

Ngl it really peeves me when the debate about Jason's ethics regarding killing in the batfam mixes up the question of him being a moral character in regards to sticking to his own philosophy (aka compromising with what he thinks is right to salvage relationships, but also exploding trains to evade capture, killing random goons in a gang war, etc) and the question of him being a moral character in regards to whether his philosophy is right. And even with regards to his philosophy there is his philosophy on politics, crime control and harm reduction, and his ethical philosophy itself (utilitarianism, aka focusing on intended positive consequences of actions for the greater good rather than the action being fundamentally moral or immoral in itself). Those are different things. Those require different debates and should not be conflated together. I'm not even saying Jason is right! I think utilitarianism and deontology both suck and fail at providing sufficient guidelines for moral behaviour. ("Everybody still loses" like the nihilist clown says. The symbolism of that one scene is pretty cool on that regard.)

And I think some people at dc would very much like for you to make the connection that because Jason is harming civilians/killing unnamed goons, he is a bad person, and as such you don't need to examine the way his stance on moral philosophy (utilitarianism) opposes Batman's. But that's not right, they don't get to wiggle out of the fact that utilitarianism vs deontology is a complicated debate that has been going on for ages, that there is no clear-cut answer where Batman fundamentally comes out on top, they don't get to use the fact that Jason (in the era currently discussed) is a villain to saddle us with a false dichotomy of "well jason is wrong about stuff so batman has to be right" to avoid addressing the actual question. The traits of the people being tied on the tracks do not change the shape of the trolley problem. The traits of the person deciding to pull the lever do not change the shape of the trolley problem. It's still one lever, three people tied on one track, one on the other, do you pull the lever. That's it. Yes, bending the metaphor to address other questions (such as "who keeps tying people to the tracks" to question systemic violence or "how does my bias, my prejudice and empathy impact my decision to pull the lever depending on who is on the tracks") are interesting but that's not what the debate is about. If I wrote an essay about the trolley problem in high school and focused primarily on the nature of the people being tied on the tracks, I'd get a big fat zero with "off-topic" written in red all over my essay, so I'm not inclined to allow DC comics to get away with it.

[dailyfigures]

Wait sorry how did we go from shipping discourse to transphobia?

man i don't know and you guys don't even see the shit i'm holding back cause let me tell you i got some discourse bombs in my inbox. this is what i look like rn

[clonehighdoublehelix]

[an-urgent-appeal]

genuinely baffled by how some people see homura as evil. how on earth do you watch rebellion and come to that conclusion

[burningcheese-merchant]

Hey Merchant! Brand new to the blog and I love it, but I was wondering your opinion on something. I’ve been noticing recently (especially on TikTok) people coming to a compromise in defending ShadowVanilla but/by antagonizing BurningCheese. They’ll say stuff like “SV has nuance but BC is just toxic” and while I can see that in a way, it doesn’t sit right with me. Again, just wondering how you feel about that (No hate to those people from me though).

Hypocrites. They're stupid, annoying hypocrites. Plain and simple. There's nothing to see except for that. It doesn't sit right because the chair is fucking busted dude, it's got 3 legs and two of them got mauled by termites and the rest got cobbled together by Patrick Star

If Golden Cheese was a man, BurningCheese would be just as popular as ShadowVanilla. It would have mountains of fanart on this dumb website and it would have a million fics on AO3 (400 and counting vs 40, yes I am bitter and disappointed, I'm only one person and there are only so many hours in a day I can't bridge that gap alone) and it would have hordes of dumb, horny fujos running interference for it 24/7 just like ShadowVanilla does. (And I specify GC being a man and not BS being a woman because let's all be real. Nobody cares about f/f ships. M/f and f/f are and will always be overshadowed by m/m whether any of us like it or not.) If they actually bothered to pay attention to the game, and to GC's and BS's characters and how they intertwine/compare/contrast, then they would see that their dynamic has equal weight and value. But they don't. And you know what? At least half of them didn't recognize the weight and value of ShadowVanilla, either, until episode 7 and 8 came out and the concept was directly spoonfed to them by the narrative. The OG ShadowVanilla fans went from rarepair hell to having their ship borderline gentrified, that's a whole separate tragedy honestly

You know what's blinding those people to BurningCheese? You know the truth? I'm going to explain better.

Burning Spice is a man and Golden Cheese is a woman. That automatically sets it back in the eyes of a lot of morons online. Hetero pairs bad. Also, BS hurt GC in the story, which is his literal job as a villain and all the Beasts do this, therefore misogyny abuse toxic blah blah blah. GC fought back and kicked his ass and never once tolerated any of his behavior but that doesn't matter I guess. Shadow Milk psychologically tortured Pure Vanilla and essentially mutilated him mentally/spiritually and turned him into a husk (Truthless Recluse). But that doesn't matter because gay = get out of jail free, also there's probably a dose of "lol men can't be abused or mistreated and anything bad that happens to a man is hot and/or deserved" underlining some people's thoughts let's not kid ourselves

Burning Spice is not a Tumblr Sexyman and Shadow Milk is. Shadow Milk is thin and nerdy and has multicolored hair and dresses like a literal and figurative clown and is kind of effeminate and is basically the final boss of all theater kids and is dramatic and charmingly evil and is confirmed to be about as physically tough as cooked pasta. Burning Spice is built like a brick shithouse and has to bend down to fit through a doorway and speaks in a rumbling baritone and is the "wrong" kind of evil (he is not suave or charming, he is all out bloodthirsty with zero dramatics or window dressing of any kind). Burning Spice is a traditionally masculine man and Shadow Milk is not. And the Tumblr I always thought I knew never liked men like BS, they like men like SM, and so far no one has done anything to prove me wrong. Tumblr Sexymen can do whatever they want and always be praised, regular sexy men can do the exact same shit and be condemned as toxic and abusive because they're perceived as threatening while Tumblr Sexymen are not

Burning Spice and Golden Cheese are not white/based on non-white cultures. They're both very dark-skinned, at that. Yes they are cookies not humans, but come the fuck on Burning Spice is literally Shiva but red instead of blue, certain cookies are obviously supposed to be certain races/ethnicities deal with it!! Skinny white boys have always been what Tumblr and TikTok girlies want, it's always been this way and always will be. Go look at the top pairings on AO3, 99% is yaoi with white dudes. (No you are not racist if you don't like BurningCheese, not liking a ship is not racist good Lord. Racism is a little bigger than that. I'm just pointing out a pattern)

I will say it until I'm as blue in the face as Shadow Milk is, I LOVE ShadowVanilla. I really do. I love them individually as characters and together as a pair, I love all the beautiful fanart, I love everyone's analyses of them, I love all the fantastic fics written by fantastic authors I will never in my fucking life measure up to I don't even know why I bother at this point, I do I do I do. But I am SICK of the hypocrisy. SICK OF IT. I am SICK of BurningCheese getting maligned while ShadowVanilla is celebrated in the same fucking breath. Look me in the eye and tell me SM is any fucking better than BS. Look me in the eye and tell me you'd still like ShadowVanilla if PV was a woman, instead of screeching about misogyny and abuse. I accept and love both ships for what they are and what they can be. If someone can't do that for whatever reason then fine, that's nobody's problem but theirs, it's shipping it doesn't actually matter do what you want, but don't try looking down your nose at others because "Fallen Hero/Heinous Villain Being Canonically Attracted To/Obsessed With Their Heroic Counterpart/Narrative Foil, Whom They Cannot Live Without Because They Are Actual, Literal Soulmates" is better than "Fallen Hero/Heinous Villain Being Canonically Attracted To/Obsessed With Their Heroic Counterpart/Narrative Foil, Whom They Cannot Live Without Because They Are Actual, Literal Soulmates" because ❓❓❓❓❓❓❓

I'm sorry Anon, I'm not mad at you. I'm happy to hear from you, I'm happy you took the time to reach out to me, I'm happy you like my blog and I hope you stay. I'll just be honest, I'm dealing with something genuinely awful in real life right now and I am not ok. I'm really not ok. I needed to yell at something stupid and ridiculous so I could pretend I'm not the utterly powerless creature I actually am, if only for a moment. I saw a punching bag in the shape of your ask and I started swinging. Worst part is I don't even feel any better, but I already typed all of this out so I might as well keep it

TL;DR: TikTok -> OPINION DISCARDED

[fabled-lady-twilla]

How it feels being a ShigaDeku shipper in this fandom. Why is everyone so mean? 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

[wikiangela]

it's so... interesting how a canonically very sexual character, who was fired from his job in episode 1x01 for stealing the fire truck to have sex on a roof and has sex in said fire truck in that same episode, who was a self-diagnosed sex addict, and is canonically implied to use cock rings, and who we've seen have more sex than any other character (i think?) over the whole show (his relationship with taylor started with them just casually hooking up if y'all don't remember), comes out as bi, flirts with his boyfriend about daddy issues, and his boyfriend just matches the energy, and suddenly it's inappropriate and gross, and fetishizing and whatever other bullshit ive been seeing

hm, wonder why 🤔

also, for anyone going on about how it was a vulnerable emotional moment for buck - it was that for Tommy too, or did you miss him talking about his dad and gerrard, and how both of them used humor to lighten the mood?

[mbat]

i yet again do NOT understand why people think that what happened to steven in future came out of nowhere. the main show beats it into the ground how fucked up all this stuff has him! just cause he ends the main show in a good place doesnt mean that everything was solved! he solved the gem stuff but not himself, that was the whole point!

like. those people show that they didnt even pay attention to the show AND they dont understand trauma. like. shut the fuck up !!!!

[glitter-stained]

Hey guys when we make criticism of the (very criticable) RHATO vol1 can we please not phrase it as "Jason getting Dick's sloppy seconds" please and thank you can we please not do that

[unstabletable69]

The most ironic thing is when people can't go up to bat for Azula without bending over backwards to vilify Zuko.

[transphilza]

the only thing i can say is to just be fucking kind and patient with others during all of this. it’s an intense subject that makes people heated for good reason but can we just not completely mercilessly rip into each other while we’re all just trying to process the same information

[elasticveins]

So random but I’m holding everyone’s hand when I say that Patroclus and Achilles didn’t look similar because everyone who’d seen Achilles before immediately knew it wasn’t him and everyone who’d hadn’t seen Achilles up close just saw the armor and thought it was bro. Literally anyone that’s seen Achilles before immediately recognizes that it’s not him. Guys please.

[acid-waste]

I'm so mad actually I can't believe some people took this scene in chapter 3 and turned it into a who's right about their grief when the scene in chapter 4 literally has ivypool saying I don't mean to make it all about me- haven't thought much about how dovewing is handling her own grief- people read chapter 3 and to me it seems as if chapter 4 doesn't even exist and the rest of what ivypool says in chapter three after saying this doesn't as well

“Dovewing, I’m truly sorry that Rowankit died. But losing a sickly kit—a kit you’ll be reunited with in StarClan one day—is different from losing a full-grown cat who was just coming into her own as a warrior. A cat who doesn’t exist anywhere—who is just gone.”

ignored this and what was said and called it a day