#jeyne pool mentioned

[lives4lovesworld]

It's always assume that at the very least Sansa will i) out smart Petyr Bealish, ii) regain autonomy and her identity, that iii) in some way or form Petyr's tale will become true such as Sansa securing herself a marriage with Harrold Hardyng and her having such a strong influence on him that he will a) wage war for her 'birthright' or b) aid the North by providing goods, food and manpower. With the Vale enthusiastically doing his every bidding, simply because she is his wife and she asked him nicely/is so courteous and eloquent/he is so inlove with her/its profitable for the Vale.

In this meta I will list (and explain) the problems I have with these speculations that seem to be rooted in wishfullfilment rather than the probability of certain plots being likely to become canon, or if they are even feasible or realistic.

i) How Sansa is suppose to outsmart and overthrow Petyr Bealish, AND remain in power afterwards?

Petyr Bealish is the man that managed to crawl his way up to the ruling elite of Westeros, despite his incredibly (relatively speaking) low birth, lack of power, wealth, family or image (he does NOT fit the feudalistic standards of a man his positions). And yet, he remained in power through several civil wars that brought houses, dynasties and monarchs to fall. Petyr is the man with circa two decades of experiences and had no qualms of sacrificing countless souls, including his self-proclaimed "true love" and lives by this philosophy:

Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. - Sansa V, ASoS

Yet the one to supposedly bring him down is the thirteen year old girl that needed to witness her own father's decapitation for her rosa colored glasses to fall off. And this after she was present to her idol and her "love" ordering her direwolf's murder to mend their wounded pride! This is the same girl that is so quick to build her entire hopes and dreams upon strangers (that shows her a little bit of kindness and fit her conforming prejudices like Margaery and her circle did) and got carried away in her own dreamworld that she could not even follow conversations and plots, even in ASoS:

Sansa wrinkled her brow. "Our true purpose, my lady?" [...] "To see you safely wed, child," the old woman said, as Butterbumps bellowed out the old, old song, "to my grandson." [...] Wed to Ser Loras, oh . . . Sansa's breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the corner of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand. She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up his tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck. [...] "Would you like that, Sansa?" asked Margaery. "I've never had a sister, only brothers. Oh, please say yes, please say that you will consent to marry my brother."

The words came tumbling out of her. "Yes. I will. I would like that more than anything. To wed Ser Loras, to love him . . ."

"Loras?" Lady Olenna sounded annoyed. "Don't be foolish, child. Kingsguard never wed. Didn't they teach you anything in Winterfell? We were speaking of my grandson Willas. He is a bit old for you, to be sure, but a dear boy for all that. Not the least bit oafish, and heir to Highgarden besides."

Sansa felt dizzy; one instant her head was full of dreams of Loras, and the next they had all been snatched away. Willas? Willas? "I," she said stupidly. - Sansa I, ASoS

Some (very in favor for her) could argue there is some desperate small wiggle room here and there for insisting that Sansa has evolved (for the better). (While nonsensically insisting she at the same time is almost stupidly naive and "idealistic", but also these traits are not obstacles to her potentially rise to an autonomous player. No they make her all the better for it.) But even if she had a stellar development; How exactly is she with no true authority suppose to best a man like Petyr Bealish?

After ASoS, Sansa has become a disgraced orphaned female beggar, married to the enemy "Imp Kingslayer", and has become utterly dependent on Petyr Bealish as his natural born daughter, depriving all her limited autonomy and authority from him as Lord Consort.

Petyr Bealish has also managed to gain Sansa's compliance and ensure her loyalty and secrecy to him by filling her head with his wonderful tale of him as her benefactor that is going to gift her all her dreams, while reminding her of her status as wanted by the crown and making her a complice in the murder of her aunt and a participant in his scheme to poison SweetRobin Arryn.

Not to mention that Sansa has yet to express her wish to detach herself from Petyr (in her POV) in the first place, but as of TWoW's releases, Sansa seems pretty content with all the privilege (x, x, x) she has as his daughter. Nor does she not seem to have a problem in being his pawn:

The Merling King's returned to Gulltown, and old Oswell had some tales to tell."

She knew better than to ask what sort of tales. If Petyr had wanted her to know, he would have told her. - Alayne II, AFfC

And as said, even if she would want to due to her involvement in Petyr's schemes as well as her being wanted for kingslaying, she would risked death herself.

But let's assume for the sake of the argument that she does; what sansa would truly need are people to genuinely protect, stand by, believe and defend her in the Vale, and as of now there is no such one, especially after the death of her aunt.

And no, Lord Yohn Royce's question if he had already meet Alyane is NOT the same as actually recognizing Alayne as an older Sansa AND publicly voucing for her on behalf of her identity, despite her stans insisting otherwise. Yohn Royce (like all vale lords) did NOT fought for Robb Stark (Winterfell's heir with an northern army at this back and strong ties to Riverrun), which really does not bode well for the possibility of him fighting for her. And this knows even Sansa:

He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen. - Alayne I, AFfC

At best (which would entail the Vale remains oblivious to her involvement in those schemes and have the lords of the Vale not sell her to the crown for the bounty) she would remain a "guest" to her cousin, and likely be married off to the next best suitor that befits her unfortunate status (as Lady Lannister)

ii) A believable explanation (any really) has yet to cross me as to HOW Sansa would (or even could) reclaim her identity without taking for granted that everything will work out in favor for her. 1) which would entail the majority of highborn lords in the Vale unquestionably believing Sansa that she, who was introduced to them as a bastard (which are seen by society as greedy and treacherous) of the Petyr Bealish (known for his schemes) is indeed Sansa Lannister, simply because she makes a teary proclaimation with her pretty Tully blue eyes. And 2) that the lack of a direwolf serving as proof will not be an obstacle 3) nor the lack of a relative voucing for her.

Infact her closest, most influential relative's death Lady Lysa's, which occurred while Sansa was supposedly already under her care as her lord husband's natural daughter will also not in any way, shape or form make them wary of her tale. Nor appear like an identity theft and poor attempt to grasp power for their own gain in the eyes of others.

Secondly, Sansa's very identity (the disowned female orphan to an overthrown House, married to the "Imp Kingslayer") does not allow her to be an autonomous player so many want her to be. Robb Stark and House Lannister saw to that. Nor would an identity reveal, even believed by everbody, give her more opportunities than the (relatively speaking) limited ones she already has as the current bastard daughter of Petyr.

iii) Petyr's tale (and why I believe it is just that and not a plan that will actually become canon);

When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. - Alayne II, AFfC

So Petyr Bealish has managed to match a marriage pact by buying all of Waynwood's debts, providing Lady Anya with an enormous dowery and because at this point Harrold Hardyng remains nothing but the son of the perished sister to Jon Arryn and a landed knight sworn to the Waynwoods. His relatively low status at the moment would allow such a "low" match with the bastard daughter of the disliked temporarily Lord Consort of the Vale. However, if SweetRobin truly dies and Harrold indeed becomes the Lord, all the reasons why "Alayne Stone" is unfit for Robert Arryn will apply for Harrold as well:

You are the Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale, and you must wed a highborn lady and father a son to sit in the High Hall of House Arryn after you are gone." Robert wiped his nose. "But I want —" She put a finger to his lips. "I know what you want, but it cannot be. I am no fit wife for you. I am bastard born." [...] Some call my father upjumped and ambitious. If you were to take me to wife, they would say that he made you do it, that it was no will of yours. The Lords Declarant might take arms against him once again, and he and I should both be put to death." [...] "You must have a proper wife, a trueborn maid of noble birth." - Alayne I, TWoW

Now Petyr Bealish's further step is to reveal Sansa's true identity on their supposed wedding, which would not solve the problem of the bride being unfit for a groom of such a caliber and it holds in and of itself many obstacles that prevent the very plan to unfold.

To start with; (as already said) should Harrold indeed become Lord Paramount he will be showed with marriage proposals by the ambitious feudal Houses of the Vale (as they were already courting widowed Lysa in AGoT) and its rather unlikely that they would grant that position to a "foreign" beggar (which Sansa would be either way, whenever she goes by her real name or by "Alayne Stone".) instead of trying to make one of their own daughters the next High Lady.

Secondly, the marriage pact entails "Alayne Stone", not Sansa Lannister. Petyr's plan to reveal Sansa's identity while she is walking down the aisle risks invalidating that very pact. And while the fandom refuse to acknowledge it, "Alayne" being revealed as Sansa would neither lessen the insult of the lie and betrayal by "Sansa Lannister" being more "attractive" as a political match. And no such a scheme would not simply brushed under the rug.

Yes, Sansa would be high born, but Harrold would get nothing politically speaking from their marriage given the position Sansa is in (as Lady Lannister). Neither will her previous marriage, especially to the House that the Vale believes has murdered their previous Paramount Lord make her more attractive. Whenever Tyrion might be believed dead or Sansa assures her virginity ten times, it more than likely that she would be seen as "sullied leavings" in the eyes of others.

Lysa Arryn likely only allowed a marriage between Sansa and her precious son, because she was her sister's daughter, and despite her flaws, their complicated relationship and her unstable mental state saw Sansa as family. And while Lysa mention Sansa's claim, (which will likely cease to exist as soon as Robb's Will becomes public knowledge) she also saw Sansa for what she was and reminded her of her position as well.

Petyr HIMSELF has pointed out how Sansa would bring nothing to any marriage (excluding her body):

"Joffrey is betrothed to Sansa Stark," Cersei objected.          "Marriage contracts can be broken. What advantage is there in wedding the king to the daughter of a dead traitor?"                 Littlefinger spoke up. "You might point out to His Grace that the Tyrells are much wealthier than the Starks, and that Margaery is said to be lovely . . . and beddable besides." [...]

Littlefinger agreed. "The Stark girl brings Joffrey nothing but her body, sweet as that may be. Margaery Tyrell brings fifty thousand swords and all the strength of Highgarden." - Tyrion VIII, ACoK   

And while Petyr has also mentioned Sansa's claim, it should mean little to nothing to Harrold considering that i) House Bolton has been installed as Warden of the North, ii) House Stark lays broken and it would have to re-establish itself as sovereign to the North. A bloody, tedious and costly task with little to no profit as the North is even under its best circumstances poor and hard to cultivate. As soon as iii) "Arya" is revealed as Jeyne Poole, it will even further slim the credibility of her identity reveal. iv) Her claim will be even further catapulted down in the line of succession with Rickon, Arya, Bran's impending reappearances. Not to mention that v) Jon will more than likely involve himself in the matter of succession as well and vi) Robb's Will will disinherited Sansa and make Jon his heir. (x)

And while most has yet to unfold on page, it would extremely OOC for Petyr Bealish (and the story!) to believe everything will work out in Sansa's favor and that Harrold will marry her out of his own volition, (which is indeed a condition in the marriage pact).

Much and more is made of his and Sansa's little playful banter at the tournament, yet what we know of Harrold's character, it's likely that he will pose the biggest threat to Petyr's little "plan".

Harrold is known for his high opinion of himself, his classism and that he has no qualms of fathering bastards on girls, he is infatuated for a brief time and then abandoning them as soon as he stops viewing them as sexually attractive. Petyr has also already stated that Harrold thinks Alayne is beneath him:

This betrothal was never [Harrold's] idea, and Bronze Yohn has no doubt warned him against my wiles. You are my daughter. He does not trust you, and he believes that you're beneath him." - Alayne I, TWoW

And it's not entirely unreasonable to think that Harrold would be insulted at the idea of marrying a girl whose virginity is questionable and who doesn't bring him any ties or wealth as Sansa Lannister. And the fact that she plans to use him and his position for her political gain will likely not make Harrold more sympathetic towards her.

The part hardest to dismantled because no matter from what angle you look upon it, it shouldn't be feasible to become canon;

. . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. - Alayne II, AFfC

So Petyr supposedly plans to use Sansa's marriage to Harrold to mobilize the army of the Vale to reclaim Winterfell in the name of House Stark.

As already said (a dozen times) Sansa (as the orphan married beggar of an overthrown House) should NOT be able to secure the Lord of the Vale as her Lord husband in the first place. Realistically speaking, Sansa should only be able to match such a marriage if she and her family would still hold the same position as of the start of the series, but as we all know, this is NOT the case anymore. House Stark is neither the secure, ancient sovereign of the stable peaceful north nor is Sansa the indisputable maiden daughter of said family. Sansa should NOT be an attractive potential bride in the eyes of the Vale without House Stark retaking the North and it becoming politically attractive enough again for other kingdoms to be of interest and them voucing for her identity.

–> Thus Petyr's entire plan falls apart, before it can even truly begin.

But let's push this all aside for the sake of the argument: Even the concept of the entire Vale doing Sansa's bidding simply because she would be their Lord's newlyweded wife is absurd as well. Her aunt had been their Lady for seventeen years and they still did NOT view her as one of them nor as a authority figure;

Young Lord Hunter said, "Lysa Tully was never truly of the Vale, nor had she the right to dispose us." - Alayne I, AFfC

Also; Why would a girl's birth claim to an entire different region that is uttelry in shambles due to the political uproar after her family's fall from grace matter to Harrold or any Valeman?

If Sansa were to marry Harrold under normal circumstances (if House Stark was still in power and Sansa would have never been married off) what would be expected of her is to rule by his side (if Harrold is progressive enough to allow it) give him children and her place would be in the Eyrie or at the Gates of the Moon. As it would befit (and deem more than sufficient for) any high born daughter that has married into another Great House of Westeros.

Never once in the history of ASoIaF was there ever a High Lord that wage war against another kingdom because his wife wanted her father's seat as well. Nor was there a High Lady that held her father's lands AND was simountanastly the High Lady to an entire different kingdom as well. This would not even be feasible.

The question as to HOW a vale army, (a southern army!) would even reach the instabil (due to the already happening civil wars, the mass exodus of the Free Folk, the famine) war torn North given the lack of a fleet or the renewed impregnability of the Neck in the middle of winter also remains a big question mark.

However, let's brush this essential question aside as well; The assumption of the vale army conquering the North is absurd as well. GRRM has already empathized how a southern army is not fit for the North's harsh climate in ADwD with Stannis Baratheon's suicidal march, contrasting it with the marching mountain clans. Nor is Harrold (a "green" boy commander) likely to win against the seasoned ruthless Roose Bolton, which the lords of the Vale would surely know too. Another reason why the vale army would NOT simply do its new young untested Lord's bidding, if he were to call for war. Harrold will likely need a few years to prove and establish himself before the valemen will willingly follow him into battle, especially into a economically nonsensical war whose favors are against them from the beginning.

And while yes, someone could argue the vale army would be better rested and organized (than Stannis's measly beaten ragtag of an army) and therefore have better chances, even in the best case scenario the vale army would likely lose most of their men in the battles against House Bolton and its banners for a gigantic region that brings them nothing; no wealth, no man power, no minerals, no goods, no trade.

All these points listed above, together with GRRM's comment on how Petyr would never give up Sansa, Petyr's wish to marry her himself (when she was Sansa Stark) and the fact that it would be incredibly stupid of him to ever allow Sansa to detach herself from him (as it would put him at risk due to her knowing so many of his crimes) further marks Petyr's tale in Alayne II, AFfC as a tale to ensure Sansa's compliance and nothing more IMO. Not to mention, which author would tell his audience the plot of a character word-for-word in dialog beforehand?

Now, some believe that instead of waging war Sansa will influence Harrold to aid the North by providing goods, food and manpower, which (fair enough) is only an ounce more feasible than the alternative. Yet, it is still something NOT supported by the books;

For this to happen, Sansa would first need to grasp the gravity of the famine that is plaguing Westeros, and care enough about the (common) people's wellfare.

Which she does not given the fact that she cannot fathom why the commoners love Margaery and as of her last chapter has her organizing a feast with 64 dishes in the middle of winter, amongst these dishes even a 6 feet tall lemon cake that required every lemon in the Vale with her being very proud of herself. Nor does she have any reaction whatsoever to Petyr's plan to cutting the food supply and hoarding food as war tactic, which would hit the common folk the hardest. Not to mention that Sansa's POV never showed her really thinking about... really anything happening in the North (especially its people), neither prior nor post House Stark's fall.

So beside all that, it would also requires the Vale to suddenly become altruistic and humanitarian, given that all possible supplies send by them would essentially all be gifts since foreseeable payment is unlikely given the north's state.

Some even have the idea of Sansa somehow achieving it all in another way on her own (because they hate the idea of Sansa marrying Harrold) (which is even less likely than Petyr turning into her Santa Claus) and exaggerated the potential influence her skills have even more. But has @brideoffires already perfectly explained in her post Sansa has NOT evolved in terms of learning new skills (unlike Arya) and more importantly none of the political plot in the Vale is moved forward through her own knowledge or scheming.

It's all propelled forward and catalyzed by her relationship with Petyr Baelish. [...] As in King’s Landing, Sansa is /being/ moved by the machinations of other people and being induced or compelled to act in certain ways because of the politics around her. - excerpt from @brideoffires linked post

Her particular skillset can only be of use and influential if the priori are Sansa already having strong ties to political thriving male relatives or/and a husband. Otherwise her skillset are not of use as GRRM has already shown throughout the whole series; Sansa can be as charming, courteous and polite as she wants to be, it does not give her agency, protection, support or power.

There is so much unrealistic, unreasonable, OOC nonsense, no one would even dare to suggest if it would be any other character, already taken for granted because it's Sansa. Sansa is always the expection. As always, everything will work out in Sansa's favor.

So why is it that even the ones critical of Sansa believe it all becomes canon anyway, one way or another? The most popular arguments I have seen are the proclaimnation that Petyr Bealish is Sansa's personal antagonist and therefore their "arc" simply MUST conclude with her triumphant. There is no other way.

The other is that SOMEONE has to get the Vale involved in the affairs of the realm, SOMEONE has to mobilize the resourceful Vale for the War of the Dawn and to aid the North's etc... And Sansa is the POV character located in the Vale so logic says GRRM MUST plan for her to be this SOMEONE to accomplish these tasks.

An entirely different reason is the fandom's climate; Basically Arya, Bran and Jon fans seem to concede Sansa these gigantic convoluted unrealistic plots (= a triumphant vale arc) in hopes that her fanbase will do the bare minimum of NOT butchering the story's integrity and the ones of their favs by not stealing their individual importance, relationships, ties, skills and arcs in the North to give Sansa a place in the northern plots (which her fans insist on having).

In conclusion; these reasonings are infuriating and incredibly offensive to the story's integrity and Sansa as a character. And more importantly, this fandom should stop offering to concede and tolerate it all simply because her fanbase is just that incredibly wild.

[stheresya]

considering how close Sansa and Jeyne were in agot, one might think it's odd how she hardly mentions her friend in the following books. some take this to mean that their bond was superficial, or that Sansa is just a horrible friend or that the author is bad at writing female relationships. but i think all the confusion can be explained here:

She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. (Sansa II, ACOK)

so Sansa actively pushes down memories of both her septa and Jeyne. this is very much in line with her usual coping mechanisms, which are: avoid and retreat into self. that's the only way she manages to not break and keep some shread of dignity in her situation. when she's forced to stare at her father's severed head she looks at it but refuses to see it, when she's forced into marriage with a Lannister she plays the dutiful wife while freezing her husband in place with her courtesies, when she's forced to lie about the murder of Lysa the truth eventually becomes just a bad dream in her memory. remember that the one time Sansa allowed herself to openly grieve (after Ned's death) she was awarded with physical abuse by Joffrey, so of course she had to learn to use her own skin as armor and rewire her own memory in order to numb herself from all the pain she has to endure. the mysterious circumstances of Jeyne's disappearance cause Sansa a different sort of grief precisely because she does not know what happened to her. she doesn't know if her friend is dead, but she understands that something terrible must've happened to her considering it was Cersei who ordered her to be put away. Sansa does care and misses her friend, but there's nothing she can do to help anyone or herself so she does what she does best: cope. she cannot allow herself to give in to grief or else she won't be able to function as a person and as a good hostage to the king, all that's left for her is to try to avoid feeling all the things she should naturally feel in her condition.

[ichorai]

i think i finally finished planning out the next part of i'm not made by design ... and i'm mostly (kinda) satisfied with it ... it's literally like five full pages of planning and i haven't even gotten to the night king bit yet x_x anyways i'm excited to start writing the next part out!

[selkiewife]

tell me please, about Ros and Reek, glass garden/houses ( It’s sounds amazig) and gloves angst porn ( i wouldn't be me if I didn't ask about it haha) ❤️

Ahhh! Thank you so much for the ask, @alwayssmiled!

Ros and Reek

So I was rewatching Season 1 of Game of Thrones and during the scene where Ros leaves for Kingslanding, Theon tells Ros: "Yes she'll be very popular until some fat lord comes to visit with a big belly and a little prick and he can't get it up so he knocks all your teeth out." And I just lost my shit with the potential foreshadowing of that line! And then I remembered reading that before season 5 aired, there were theories that the show would use Ros in the Jeyne Poole storyline- since they had already used her to stand in for other characters such as Alayaya. The theory was that Little Finger would use Ros as a proxy for Sansa. And so this AU began forming in my head which is based on the show, but more book stuff is incorporated as well. I just kept having this image in my head when they meet again and Theon is the one with his teeth knocked out and it goes from there... I think it would be very very interesting to explore how incorporating Ros changes the dynamic- just as having Sansa there changed things vs Jeyne in the books. I like that there is still the element of "person who no one cares about" with Ros- but to possibly an even greater extent than Jeyne- because she is lowborn and older. And I also really love the past relationship between Theon and Ros and think that would be really interesting to explore.

Glass Gardens/Glass Houses

This is a book based fic that takes place in my imagined "dream of spring" era. They won against the WW but their lands and society have been completely devastated. Theon is helping to rebuild Winterfell and he is assigned to help rebuild the glass gardens- to grow food (to sow essentially.) During the fic, there will be flashbacks that explain how Bran skinchanged him at certain points for reasons I am still working out. But it was apparently in service of the greater good/to help win the war against the army of the dead. However, this experience has left Theon's mind broken in a way that Ramsay was never able to do. So this is not the laughing in Stannis' face defiant Theon. And that in itself is devastating. There are a lot of unhappy reunions as well! He sees Palla and Beth and Jeyne again and there is so much angst. He watches Jeyne reunite with them- I suppose there is some bittersweet hopefulness for the three girls. But it's the idea of trying to deal with the impossible task of "making amends" when he really can't with a body and mind that has been punished to its limits already. But maybe he can still get something to grow...

Gloves Angst Porn

This was another one inspired by the Greysnow Week prompts that I was unable to finish. It is a show based fic that branches out a bit into book territory because of changed circumstances- Theon is recaptured by Ramsay and tortured after helping Sansa escape. Jon and Sansa find him again after retaking Winterfell. This is actually my first attempt to write porn for Jon and Theon but, in true me fashion it is going to get QUITE the angst filled lead up. Multiple chapters of angst filled lead up lol. There is a little of it below the cut but it's rough:

“Take off your gloves.” 

When Jon gives a command it must be obeyed, and yet Reek falters. He can’t say why. Shame? Embarrassment? But Jon has seen him shamed, seen his humiliation more times than Reek can count. It was Jon himself who pulled him off of the saltire after he and Sansa had defeated Ramsay.  Somehow though, it never gets any easier. 

He turns from where he was feeding the fire and faces Jon. 

“My lord?” He asks softly, hoping that he might have misheard him. 

Jon stands with his brow creased, studying papers strewn about the desk. He isn’t even looking at him, but at Reek’s question, he raises his eyes. 

It is all Reek can do not to shrink back. Jon wants him to be Theon now. Just as Ramsay before him wanted Theon to be Reek. But it is hard to remember. Not his name but.. well, what Theon did what Theon meant. He use to rhyme in his head to remember Reek. Reek, Reek it rhymes with sneak and leak and freak. Theon does not rhyme with anything. 

When he tries to grasp the sense of Theon he is met with a void. And the memories of past deeds. People hurt, ghosts clinging to his cloak. Traitor, Murderer. They don’t rhyme but they are true. Still, he is not supposed to be those things anymore. So what is he to do? Reek at least rhymes with seek.

He tries to keep eye contact like Jon wants him too but he fails and drops his eyes like the dog he is. (You shouldn’t make direct eye contact, unless you want to appear to be a threat. And you should never appear to be a threat toward your master. You must wait until your master gives you leave to look.)

“Take off your gloves. I need to see your hands.” 

When Reek hesitates again, Jon adds, “Please.” 

Because there is nothing else he can do, he turns back toward the fire and begins to peel off the black leather. He can’t tell why he feels the need to turn away from Jon as if he were removing his shirt or trousers. And as soon as he realizes how this modesty must seem to Jon he flushes. 

Reek seeks a memory. He tries to grasp the boy he use to be, with his easy confidence and sassy mouth, who could always make Jon flustered with a lewd word or jape. But of course, that boy is no longer there, just this wreck of an old man who trembles if you look at him the wrong way. And if he did truly act like Theon, would Jon let him stay? Jon thought Theon was an ass. And Theon betrayed Robb and burned Winterfell. No that was Ramsay… it’s difficult to keep the different truths in order. 

When Theon is finished removing his gloves, he holds his hands up for Jon as if he is confessing a crime. In a way he is. These are ugly hands that bear all the markings of his punishments, the games he would play with Ramsay. Reek made these hands a ruin as much as Ramsay did, for in the end, he was always the one pleading for a finger to be severed. He always made me beg.

Jon studies his hands and Reek studies Jon’s face, trying to discern whether his expression holds disappointment. Jon takes one of his hands in his and Reek shivers. 

“Have you been taking care of them? Not biting them I hope?”

Reek swallows. “… A little…I’m sorry… I…”

“Fine,” Jon says gruffly, shutting him up. Jon is trying to make him better, like Ramsay before him tried. And that is good. But Reek knows he will never punish him for things like this, and that is good too. 

Jon turns Reek’s hand over and then takes the other one in his other hand. He traces his gloved fingers over the stumps. It’s not as if he is seeing me naked Reek reminds himself. Finally Jon stops and Reek remembers to breathe. 

Jon turns and goes back to his desk. He takes a feather and begins writing before he pronounces his sentence. “Tomorrow you will begin training again, with the bow.”

[mvsicinthedvrk]

@skyfcll​ said : ☀ — [sender] and [receiver] visit a pumpkin patch ( jeyne & martin )

“I think I’m going to try and find two this year,” Martin tells Jeyne as they meander slowly down the row of pumpkins in the patch. “One for my place and once for my desk at work. If I can find a small enough one, I mean. Maybe more of a-- hand-sized gourd, than a pumpkin?” 

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

D&D saying that one of their favorite plots from the books is the Boltons in Winterfell is a massive sign of their sexism. Now, for anyone one else, I'd probably not care, in fact, I'd agree it's a very interesting part. However, when it comes to the showrunners who needlessly wrote in excessive rape and violence against women, I see it as a red flag. That's compounded by the way they wrote it.

From the beginning of the show, D&D sabotaged the storyline by removing Jeyne Poole. Keep in mind, ADWD was released in 2008, while GOT premiered in 2011, meaning there was no possible way for D&D to not know everything necessary to bring about that specific plot. Add to that the fact that GRRM was heavily involved in season one, them blatantly ignoring Jeyne makes even less sense if they truly cared about adapting it properly.

Knowing this, that D&D themselves sabotaged their own story, the way it was handled makes a bit more sense, though not nearly enough. Without Jeyne there to play the part of fake Arya, a new bride for Ramsay was needed. Sansa was D&D's favorite character, they were unsatisfied with the story GRRM had written for her, they wanted more screen time and plot relevance for her. It seemed like making Sansa take Jeyne's place was a good solution to both these issues.

Except it wasn't. Littlefinger sending Sansa out of the Vale to marry Ramsay makes no sense. Not only is Sansa the object of Littlefinger's obsession, a replacement for Catelyn in his mind, she also was important to Littlefinger getting the Vale on his side (in the show). She was charming the lords and knights, balancing their intense dislike for him with their desire to help/protect her. Not to mention she was his only alibi to save him from accusations of Lysa's murder. Sending her away from the Vale harms Littlefinger's plans. She also would definitely not be "protected" from Cersei; after all the Boltons were loyal to the Lannisters and hated the Starks, what's to stop them from killing Sansa or handing her over once the Northern lords are more settled?

Speaking of the Northern lords, D&D removed the Northern Conspiracy. Throughout the book plot, the Northern lords are plotting to save Arya and depose the Boltons (in a nutshell, it's actually much more complex, but I'm not going into that rn). It's an excellent expression of how the Northerners loved the Starks and hate the Boltons. In the show, the lords are a bit disgruntled, sure, but they have no interest in deposing the Boltons and saving Sansa.

Another major part of the storyline minimized by the show is Theon/Reek. Theon's struggle with identity is a major part of his character throughout the series, and ADWD is no different. He's been stripped entirely of his identity by Ramsay's torture and Theon's own choices. Part of his arc in this book is discovering himself apart from the Starks and the Greyjoys.

That's definitely not what the show did. As I said earlier, Sansa is D&D's favorite character, so naturally she became the center focus of this arc, while Theon was pushed aside. He's essentially reduced to the method of Sansa's escape and goes on track to return to his pre-season one perception of himself: a Stark. This is a massive disservice to his character, Theon isn't a Stark; his life with them is important to his storyline and will definitely inform what he becomes, but it's not the true culmination of his arc. Basically, Theon was turned into a side character in his own story. It's through his pov we see this story, he's the character most tied to Ramsay. Obviously Jeyne is important and a main character in her own right for this arc, but she is not the central character we see the story through. So why is Sansa? She has no stake in this story, Jeyne is forced there after being sex trafficked and Theon is a captive.

So what does this leave for the show version of the plot? There's no conspiracy, Theon's pushed to the side, and politics and overall story are sacrificed. Well that leaves torture and violence against Ramsay's bride. Without the many moving parts of that storyline, it's just a story of a woman being abused horribly by her husband and eventually escaping. However, the escape isn't even the main aspect of the story focused on, that's always the abuse. It's also purely Sansa's abuse, not Theon's or the many people tortured and murdered by Ramsay, Sansa is the sole focus.

So basically, D&D took a plotline that's filled with the inner workings of Northern politics and the complexities of battling identity loss and reduced it to another excuse to show a woman be raped and abused on screen. The desire to turn this stroy into another way to make Sansa suffer is disturbing, and to make matters worse she fucking thanks Ramsay later on?? This whole storyline in the show is disgusting and yet another sign of how sexist D&D are.

[agentrouka-blog]

do you think jeyne poole will live? like a long and peaceful(or will try) life or?

Oh yes, absolutely.

GRRM used her character for plot reasons, and to make a big terrible point about hypocrisy and classist disregard in a big number of people. But he won't end it there.

From Jaime Lannister to the collective Northern nobility, no one would bother raising a hand to protect Jeyne Poole for her own sake. It's inconvenient. It would raise a fuss no one can bother to deal with. Only Theon comes to care for her as a person. Only Sansa remembers her friend.

Jeyne is only barely a step above the peasant girls Ramsay hunts for sport. He names his dogs after them, several are called Jeyne.

Even after she escapes with Theon's help, she must remain "Arya".

Jeyne Poole had wept all the way from Winterfell to here, wept until her face was purple as a beetroot and the tears had frozen on her cheeks, and all because he told her that she must be Arya, or else the wolves might send them back. "They trained you in a brothel," he reminded her, whispering in her ear so the others would not hear. "Jeyne is the next thing to a whore, you must go on being Arya." He meant no hurt to her. It was for her own good, and his. She has to remember her name. When the tip of her nose turned black from frostbite, and the one of the riders from the Night's Watch told her she might lose a piece of it, Jeyne had wept over that as well. "No one will care what Arya looks like, so long as she is heir to Winterfell," he assured her. "A hundred men will want to marry her. A thousand." (TWOW, Theon)

But names are important, even if they aren't convenient.

And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester's ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. "The tree," one squawked, "the tree, the tree," whilst the second screamed only, "Theon, Theon, Theon." Theon Greyjoy smiled. They know my name, he thought. (TWOW, Theon)

It's only when he embraces his true identity, in the first chapter that carries his name in ADWD, that Theon can rise to save Jeyne. He is filled with joy at remembering himself, even after all he endured. Even while still pushing Jeyne into the pretense of a different name.

GRRM isn't using mirroring language for nothing. Jeyne will return to herself. Even after all she endured, she will know joy and belonging. There is life after trauma.

AFFC and TWOW contain the first mention of Jeyne Poole from Sansa's end since ACOK.

She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole. (AFFC, Alayne II)

For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up. (TWOW, Alayne I)

The mentions tie her to friendship and to Sansa's own true identity.

GRRM isn't building that up for nothing, and the theme of identity and friendship, the mirror to Theon suggests a reunion that will validate Jeyne as a person worth of consideration for her own sake.

And that's where the idea of justice will come in. Jeyne is the perfect crown witness against Littlefinger, who is complicit in the plot of false identity to tamper with legitimacy of Northern rulership and the rights to Winterfell. He's a collaborator with not just the Lannister regime but House Bolton. There's barely any proof for his crimes, and none that Sansa can safely divulge, but this is a proper witness account for a trial.

Just like it's extremely likely that the dogs, with their various Jeynes, will be involved in the demise of Ramsay (though not the way the show did it) in order to give justice to the peasant girls he murdered, it's likely that Jeyne Poole will have a hand in creating justice against Littlefinger, one of the architects of her misery. And with the protection and regard of Sansa (and Arya), it will be made clear that even a person of lower rank like Jeyne Poole has a voice and importance.

And then she will go on and live her life.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Is your chosen username anything to do with Ray Bradbury’s story by chance? If so, Mildly ironic given the current stete of fandom

It's not the primary reason for my URL (that would be the Simpsons), but yes, "A Sound of Thunder" and the butterfly effect are among the many reasons I love butterflies. I don't think it's ironic re the current state of fandom though, I've long noticed GRRM citing the butterfly effect to explain how a small adaptational difference can lead to great changes by the end, since 2011, and particularly since GOT S5 and S8. So it's not surprising GRRM cited it again re HOTD, it's one of his standards along with Scarlett O'Hara's kids. Heck, he cited both things in an interview (regarding the question of whether HOTD was "canon") only 2 years ago. By definition the butterfly effect is just a single wingbeat that eventually makes a hurricane, but for GRRM it's a drum he's never stopped beating.

So, regarding the butterfly effect in GOT... let's give some examples. One of the butterflies GRRM used to talk about was that in the show, Khal Drogo killed Mago (in the epsiode airing June 5, 2011) whereas in ADWD (released July 17, 2011), Dany is captured by the khalasar where Mago is a bloodrider, and GRRM has said he'll be a significant character in TWOW. How the show handled it... they basically replaced him with Khal Moro, and tbqh, due to GRRM's own flat characterization of the Dothraki, it's hard to tell if there will be any difference between one brutish thug threatening to rape Dany vs another brutish thug with a slightly different name. Maybe TWOW will surprise us there, but if so, I really will be surprised.

Another butterfly (mentioned in the Mago link above) was that in GOT, Marillion never went to the Eyrie, and instead went to KL and got detongued by Joffrey. Thus, Marillion never became Lysa's favorite, and his plot with Sansa in ASOS/AFFC never happened. So Petyr didn't have anyone to blame for Lysa's murder... and yet in the show, he really didn't need Marillion, he convinced the Lords of the Vale that Lysa committed suicide. However, this was done by Sansa revealing her true identity to them... which cut off the Alayne plotpoint altogether. And that leads to what GRRM might call the greater "toxic butterfly" of Jeyne Poole not being an actual character in the show (she appears for half a second at Winterfell and never again), and thus Sansa took her place in the Ramsay storyline. But to be frank, I don't believe Jeyne's absence had any real "butterfly effect" on the show... even if had she been an actual character and Sansa's companion that Littlefinger made into a prostitute at one of his brothels, D&D never would have brought her out again to play "Arya". David and Dan deleted the Alayne plotpoint and Sansa's AFFC/TWOW storyline, and instead sent Sansa north to be married and raped because that's what they wanted to do with her character, not because they "had to" because Jeyne wasn't there. (And if they ever told GRRM otherwise, they lied.)

And that's the truth about the "butterfly effect" straight up. GRRM seems to believe a story must flow logically to its conclusion and thus removing even a small element changes that conclusion. But the truth is that D&D could have done whatever they wanted, dead/nonexistent characters or otherwise. Aegon and JonCon not existing is not what made Dany a mad queen and burn KL, they chose to make her a mad queen because that's the story they wanted to write. The bizarre nonsense of the show Dorne storyline is not because they removed Arianne, but because they wanted to make Ellaria both vengeful and uncaring about her lover's family. Smalljon Umber surviving the Red Wedding is not why Osha and Rickon died, it's because they wanted to kill off Osha and Rickon and add another heartless Northern villain. Flow does not truly apply, this isn't an atmospheric system and it's not a real history. Nothing forced D&D into doing anything except budget/orders from above/other business issues. It's fiction, it's the story they constructed, they chose to construct it that way, because "Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen."

Now, regarding HOTD -- let me first provide a quote from GRRM from the "canon" interview I linked above:

George: And the more you read about history, the more inconsistencies you had. So I thought it would be fun to do that in Fire and Blood. And so when I’m relating what happened here, and I’m thinking about what can happen. Yeah, I… oh, this would be great. This would be really outrageous, it would be… and then, eh, it’s probably too outrageous. Here’s probably what… the more realistic version of it. And wait a minute, this version makes Fred the villain and Bill the hero. And this version makes Bill a villain and Fred the hero. And then at some point it hit me. Why don’t I give all versions? Cause history is uncertain. I’ll give all versions and it’ll be fun for me. I can put in all the really outlandish scurrilous things, the way Mushroom sees it, but I can also put in the things that are probably more…  Aziz: They’re sources, yeah.  George: And that worked fine for those who liked that thing, although some don’t. But if I was writing it as a novel, if I’d been writing this in the form of the books in A Song of Ice and Fire, like Winds of Winter, which I’m writing now. When I get to a chapter in The Winds of Winter and I know something’s gonna happen. How does it happen? What are the things? I think I could do it this way. I could do it that way. I have to make up up my mind. In Fire and Blood, I didn’t have to have to make up my mind, but Ryan and Miguel, when they’re adapting it, they largely had to make up their mind. 

So. In his (deleted) blog post, GRRM talks about the absence of Maelor being a butterfly, so that the Blood & Cheese scene didn't have Helaena choosing between two sons (only between a son and a daughter), and he thinks it's unlikely they'll have the Bitterbridge scene with the Kingsguard Rickard Thorne heroically trying to protect Maelor (who is torn to pieces by the crowd). GRRM said that this will affect Helaena once again, because Maelor's death is why she commits suicide in F&B and he says in the S3 outline Helaena does it for "no reason". Welp. First of all, it's kind of hilarious that the wiki immediately cited GRRM's blog post, because IDK if GRRM recalls that in F&B he gave multiple reasons for Helaena's suicide (several weeks after Maelor's death!) through the book's conceit of multiple historians:

because she learned she was pregnant after being gangraped in a brothel along with her mother per Mushroom's wild story of the "Brothel Queens" (though Gyldayn reasserts no part of Mushroom's story is credible)

because she watched two knights who had tried to rescue Corlys be hanged and this upset her, per Munkun (though Gyldayn thinks it's unlikely because she didn't know them)

because Mysaria told her that night that Maelor had died and how he died, per Septon Eustace (though Gyldayn says it's hard to understand what motive Mysaria would have had for doing so)

because she didn't actually commit suicide, she was pushed, because Rhaenyra ordered her murder (what the smallfolk believed, which per Mushroom was a rumor spread by Larys Strong, and note Gyldayn does not discredit him here)

So whatever reason they're choosing for Helaena's suicide in HOTD (I doubt it will remain "for no reason" between outline and script and broadcast), it may be hard to argue it's not textually based given the multiple choice options in the text. Plus, there's a possible reason in the book that is unmentioned by Gyldayn -- that only a short time before, Daemon had his murder-suicide battle with Aemond above the Gods Eye. Though it seems that the news of that battle didn't reach KL until a day after Helaena's suicide, book!Helaena was not a dreamer the way show!Helaena is. And the show has already drawn a connection between Helaena, Daemon, Aemond, the battle above the Gods Eye, and prophecies. So again, I very much doubt she will kill herself "for no reason" in the show. It may not be the same reason as in F&B, but there should be some reason.

But the fact that GRRM stated outright that the Maelor reason is the real one and therefore he's an important character who should not be butterflied away -- well, that blog post did what his book deliberately failed to do. GRRM wrote a book with so many multiple choice conflicting narratives, deliberately, because he didn't want to make up his mind, so in its adaptation the HOTD writing team chose to write a narrative that picks and chooses among them (and sometimes, yes, makes up new shit), because they did have to make up their mind (and not do a Rashomon framing device). And only now he's like "no that's wrong, there is a real true history there and I'm mad they're not doing it"? I'm sure it's frustrating to GRRM, but if it's a problem, it's been a problem since the very start!

I mean, I am deeply sympathetic to him being disappointed by an adaptation once again, especially if he thought being an executive producer would give him more power than GOT's co-executive producer status but again that was just an empty title with no power at all. And especially if he has been telling the HOTD writers truths the book didn't, only to be dismissed with something like "well you didn't say that in the book so we're doing it differently". And especially if he thought a particular scene was very fine writing and characterization, and is disappointed that the show is unlikely to broadcast it to a greater audience. Y'klnow... damn the NDAs, but someone really ought to get GRRM's opinion regarding Septon Meribald's broken men speech, frequently considered one of his best, and how they did something rather different in GOT... and lbr, the Rickard Thorne Bitterbridge scene was a nice bit of a knight actually keeping his vows for once, but it doesn't compare.

(Seriously, let's be real. We all know GRRM's real issue is with what GOT did to his legacy. HOTD is just the one he thinks he might be able to nip in the bud before they make so many changes... and if he can't, that's just the wound of GOT all over again.)

And I do agree that Helaena's suicide is important, however it happens. The KL riots being sparked by her suicide are also important. (Though I very much doubt they won't exist at all in any form -- again see that vision from S2E8 and the fact that it included a scene evidently from the Storming of the Dragonpit.) And Maelor is important as well for something GRRM didn't mention (perhaps he thought he couldn't get away with it, though evidently he couldn't get away with saying anything) -- the fact that his death is what causes Daeron's heel turn from a sweet kid to a war criminal, and thus the Sack of Bitterbridge and Lady Caswell's own suicide (imo far more emotionally moving than Thorne's stand against the crowd). But... those butterflies don't necessarily have to be "killed", as GRRM fears. Daeron (who at least we know exists in the show) can have a heel turn for a different reason. Bitterbridge can be sacked for a different reason.

If that's what they choose to do, because yes, Daeron doesn't have to have a heel turn at all, Bitterbridge doesn't need to be sacked at all, the entire southern campaign can be a different story, they can write anything they want, as faithful to F&B as they want or otherwise. But GRRM's greatest worry seems to be that a less-than-faithful adaptation won't be a "logical and convincing" story where all the points lead to a conclusion, and... I'm truly sorry to say, that does not necessarily follow. Whatever conclusion HOTD reaches will be the sum of whatever came before. If some parts aren't built up as well as they should be, lbr F&B's Dance has had the same critiques for years. And again, the multiple-historian conceit, as well as it being a history and not a POV narrative, has never helped this issue, because it lead to one of F&B's greatest faults -- that it is not consistent with itself. (Unrelated to the Dance: see Alysanne's attitude towards Baelon inheriting at the end of the Long Reign chapter, vs pages later in the Heirs of the Dragon chapter. "You will be a great king" vs "a cock is not essential"... these chapters were written years apart, and not edited together nearly as well as they should have been.) If GRRM has a different story in his head that is more consistent than was put on the page, again this may be too little too late for all the work already put into the show.

However... I have a very strong feeling that it's not "Maelor the missing" or even whatever's happening with Helaena and the riot, or Daeron and Bitterbridge, that's GRRM's real worry about "toxic butterflies". I think the subject he really wanted to talk about, and knew he absolutely could not (and yet perhaps hoped that post could pressure HBO about), is the absence of Nettles. Her absence would greatly change the relationship of Daemon and Rhaenyra, who we've seen HOTD has chosen to portray as an OTP, a toxic one perhaps, "always meant to burn together". But it was already portrayed as odd in F&B for Daemon to lose his head chasing after a teen girl (if IMO entirely consistent with his personality), but with HOTD's apparent Daemon/Rhaenyra plot... Well, see S2's process starting with him leaving her in ep2, to their reunion in ep8 convinced she's the queen chosen by the gods... is Nettles going to come in and blow that up? Make Daemon abandon Rhaenyra again? It could be told in a "logical and convincing" way, I still think it should be, but at this point it's hard to see how it would be. (And looking at GOT in comparison, Nettles does not have either the textual value nor the fanbase that Brienne has, and just look how they ended their toxic OTP of Jaime/Cersei, despite the books.)

But plot and relationships aside, Nettles is a character whose meaning reaches well beyond F&B, to affect ASOIAF itself. Her legacy regarding Targaryen exceptionalism, to the subject of who can really ride a dragon, her legacy regarding the Vale's Burned Men... all these are elements that may be extremely important in TWOW and ADOS. So if GRRM has been trying to convince Ryan that Nettles is the most important character that should not be eliminated, and yet has been shut down... well, no wonder he's been depressed about his own legacy.

And again, I'm sure it's the deeper wound of GOT's ending that's been truly paining GRRM regarding his legacy, that their ending that may be the only thing anyone ever sees. Perhaps he was hoping that HOTD could help correct the issue. That its foreshadowing would help readers understand the truth, what happens in TWOW and ADOS, the real ending. But... again I'm deeply sympathetic, and I'm sorry HOTD couldn't be that for him, but the truth is no other television show can be GRRM's legacy in that way. The only thing that can correct GOT is his own words. The only thing that truly matters is him finishing TWOW and ADOS... and it's been 13 years since ADWD, 5 years since GOT S8. I want to tell him, so much, fuck the butterflies-- as you've said so many times yourself, the show is not the books. Leave them be in their other universe and focus on your own, please. Please.

Because, again, let's be real. If GRRM does finish his grand epic and completes his legacy, his last word on the subject... if this makes HBDiscFlix want to do a GOT remake once they have an actual story to adapt "correctly" (which they still won't)... you know that when the final season of Game of Thrones Brotherhood comes out in 2050 and Tyrion rides a dragon despite having no Targaryen ancestry... all the clickbait sites and YouTok will have vidposts like "The Missing Character from House of the Dragon - What You Don't Know About This GOTB Development!" It won't matter what HBO did or didn't do with HOTD. It's just GRRM's own words in the end... if he has them.

[scarareg]

Some of the reasons GOT crashed and burned was because there were major events that went without consequences. For example, let's have Cersei blowing up the Great Sept and somehow everyone, especially the smallfolk, did not have any kind of reaction about it. In HOTD Rhaenys blowed up the Dragonpit,killing thousand of people and no-one cares, and her dragon is beloved by the civilians somehow

Other point is how they changed the characters personalities from one episode to another, without any reason or character arc, just to turn them into villains. Sorry for the reminder of Dany' character assasination. But it reminds me of Aemond, in the sense that he is now acting like an anime villain who does not respects his mom (or anyone) at all and just wants war for some reason, even if in S1 he was completely different

Another point is how they omitted some book characters because their stories may be hard to adapt, or/and because if they were never mentioned in the show, then there are fewer plot lines, so in theory the show would be easier to write. So who cares about Young Griff,right? Just like in HOTD they are acting like Maelor is not important, so they can erase him. Or ,Daeron? Who is that? It doesn't really matter

Lastly, they gave book plots to other characters, so Sansa is now stuck with Theon and Ramsay, which originally is Jeyne Poole's plotline. In HOTD they are giving to Rhaena Nettles' story

But of course HOTD is going to end up ok, right guys? Nothing can go wrong

[goodqueenaly]

Hello again! Sorry I’m trying to figure out how to make this a question, but if you’re willing to, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about Myranda Royce? I feel like she’s interesting as a counterpoint to the general depiction of the Vale nobility—it struck me that her open association with “Alayne Stone” could be considered unusual by her contemporaries. Do you think it’s genuine, or being gracious (or both)? Thanks and I hope you are well!

I think Myranda is quite an interesting character! (Long, more under the cut)

On the one hand, Myranda certainly wants to encourage Sansa-as-Alayne to see her as a friend. Throughout their conversation, Myranda asks, indeed demands that Sansa-as-Alayne refer to her as “Randa”, an informal nickname which bridges the class distinction between them (more on that in a bit). Myranda’s genial, self-identified “wicked” gossip, punctuated with laughs and jokes, directly recalls Sansa’s last true experience of female friendship, way back in AGOT - sharing a strawberry pie with Jeyne Poole, “giggling and gossiping and sharing secrets”. Too, as they near the Gates of the Moon, Myranda tells Sansa-as-Alayne of the apartments readied for her but offers to share her own bed with Sansa-as-Alayne, much in the manner of Margaery’s bedsharing with her close-knit cousins. Nor is this proffered friendship an entirely empty hope on the part of Myranda. By TWOW, Sansa is internally referring to Myranda as “her friend”, and when Myranda cheerfully dares Sansa to race the gatehouse by declaring “[l]ast one to the gate must marry Uther Shett”, Sansa laughs and joyfully thinks that “[f]or just a little while … [Sansa] found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up”. Myranda does provide Sansa-as-Alayne, at least eventually, some access to friendship and fun Sansa has not experienced in a very long, very traumatic time; finally, after months turning to years of loneliness, abuse, and fear, Sansa has a young aristocratic woman of an age with her, with whom she can be happy - in fact, feeling “alive again, for the first since her father… [sic] since Lord Eddard Stark had died”.

Yet Sansa cannot embrace Myranda Royce as her friend without complication, given the context in which she is introduced to Myranda. Before Sansa and Myranda Royce ever meet, Littlefinger warns Sansa that she, Sansa, must “be careful” and “[g]uard [her] tongue around [Myranda]”, because while Myranda “likes to play the merry fool … underneath she’s shrewder than her father”. That Sansa takes this warning to heart is reflected in Sansa-as-Alayne’s greeting to Myranda, allowing Myranda to call her “Alayne” but internally adding “you’ll get no secrets from me”.  Indeed, Myranda’s frank conversation, complete with blunt questions, seems to parallel Olenna Tyrell’s similarly staged interview of Sansa at the start of ASOS; just as the shrewd Queen of Thorns weaponized an attitude of uncourtly candor to make Sansa comfortable enough to admit to Joffrey’s monstrousness, so Myranda seems to want to draw information out of Sansa-as-Alayne, particularly to her true identity, by peppering their chat with candid sexual references and choice bits of gossip. To that end, Myranda does appear to succeed: when Myranda seemingly offhand mentions that “the Night’s Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark’s”, Sansa-as-Alayne blurts the name “Jon Snow” - an improbable bit of identification for supposedly the bastard daughter of a minor Vale lord, allegedly living in Gulltown with the Faith until relatively recently. (Whether Myranda then later remarks on Sansa-as-Alayne’s “rosy cheeks and big blue eyes” to make a coy reference to the true Sansa’s Tully appearance, or later still tells Sansa-as-Alayne that “[t]he first Lady Waynwood must have been a mare” as a sly allusion to the Waynwood marriage Catelyn says was made by one of Jocelyn Stark’s Royce daughters, are both open, intriguing possibilities.) In the ongoing theme of truth versus lies so central to Sansa’s storyline, Myranda’s search for knowledge is used by Littlefinger to portray her as an antagonist; falsehood and secrecy, literally defining Sansa for the moment in the guise of “Alayne Stone” must perforce divide Sansa from her would-be friend, at least according to Littlefinger. 

Yet Myranda does not simply represent the duality of friendship and animosity for Sansa-as-Alayne. For all her risqué jokes and targeted requests for information, there is I think a good heart to Myranda, most clearly demonstrated in her treatment of Robert Arryn. Before we even meet Myranda on page, Sansa mentally notes that “Robert [would] be pleased” at the news of Myranda’s coming, because “[h]e liked Myranda”, implying not only that Robert has met her before but that Myranda made a good impression in her prior visit(s). While it’s certainly good political sense for any Vale aristocrat to treat the Lord of the Eyrie with respect, Myranda shows Robert genuine warmth and kindness: kneeling to meet him at his level, grandly lying that he had “grown so big” and would “be taller than me soon”, and joining Sansa-as-Alayne in allaying Robert’s fears by agreeing that the Winged Knight could indeed fly “[h]igher than the mountains” - all important actions to take toward a young boy infantalized and dismissed as sickly for virtually his entire eight years of life. Like Sansa, who plays to Robert’s favorite stories of chivalric heroism to encourage his bravery, Myranda offers Robert a rare opportunity for pride in himself in this trek down the mountain. Indeed, Myranda acts exactly as Sansa believes Mya Stone should have - “greet[ing] him with a smile” and “[telling] him how strong and brave he looks” - a positive reflection on both Myranda’s relationship with Robert and her perceptive sense of manners. 

Related to this point, Myranda seems to have a keen and natural grasp of her position; this is a young woman who understands how to be lady of a castle to her fingertips. The little Sansa initially knows of Myranda Royce includes the fact that Myranda “kept her father's castle for him”, and that “it was a much livelier court when she was home than when she was away”. Myranda’s courtly experience is on full display in Sansa’s TWOW sample chapter. When the Waynwood party arrives to the Gates of the Moon, Myranda curtsies to Lady Anya, politely ignores Wallace Waynwood’s stammer, adds some sweetly witty commentary on the upcoming feast and tourney, and informs the Waynwoods of their and their party’s lodging with both grace and tact. Too, while she might continue to provide her cutting opinions privately to Sansa-as-Alayne, Myranda also seems to know where to express herself more subtly: calling to Sansa-as-Alayne for a less rude escape from her Lipps and Shett admirers, and quietly teasing Lyn Corbray (whom Myranda already identified as an unlikely suitor) by piously wishing for a healthy delivery for that Corbray sister-in-law whose pregnancy Lyn resents so much. 

Which, of course, only highlights the (relative) societal knife edge on which Myranda exists. As the daughter of the head of the lesser branch of her family, Myranda already occupies a place lower than that of other Vale blue-bloods - recall Littlefinger’s note to Sansa that Myranda’s father was in part quite willing to believe Littlefinger precisely because he, Nestor, was “very much aware that he was born of the lesser branch of House Royce”. As “a widow, but scarce used”, to borrow her rueful turn of phrase, Myranda has neither the maidenhood so prized by aristocratic Westerosi nor the dynastic investment of a child with her late husband - and by extension, a socially acceptable role(s) as wife and/or mother. Myranda is, in the cold and unfair calculus of Westerosi aristocratic marriage making, a lesser prize - a fact Myranda herself appears to recognize all too well. As she sighs to Sansa-as-Alayne, Myranda cannot determine “whether it was me she [i.e. Anya Waynwood] found unsuitable [for Harry Hardyng], or just my dowry”; too, as Sansa herself picks up, behind Myranda’s japes of Sansa-as-Alayne’s apparent success in being betrothed to Harry, there is the hurt of a young woman brusquely reminded that she was, at least in the estimation of Lady Waynwood, not good enough for such a match. In the zero sum game of Westerosi matchmaking, Sansa-as-Alayne cannot win (again, only in the  sense of a betrothal to a politically very important fiancé) without Myranda losing out on that exact match. 

This tension, in turn, I think as much defines Myranda’s relationship with Sansa as the duality of Myranda as both (potential) friend and foe does for Sansa’s relationship with her.  Myranda has the name and familial credentials, but not the dowry to make good on them or the aristocratic marriage to show for them; Sansa-as-Alayne is (ostensibly) an unlegitimized bastard of a rather upjumped lord, yet she has the great dowry and (as of the start of TWOW) the brilliant future marriage to the heir presumptive of House Arryn. Consequently, when Myranda first meets Sansa-as-Alayne, it is Myranda who condescends (in the most fundamental meaning of the word) to her: “I am 'my lady' at the Gates”, Myranda reminds Sansa-as-Alayne, “but up here on the mountain you may call me Randa”, a quiet reminder that it is Myranda who can waive the privilege of formal address because she herself is automatically entitled to such a style. It is Myranda who sniffs at the “common girl”, not even dignified with a first name, with whom Harry fathered a child; Myranda who thinly veils the bitterness in her observation that “Harry could have done much worse” than marry her, even if she was, as she reflects, widowed and no longer a maiden; and Myranda who declares that she “shan’t concern [herself]” with Sansa-as-Alayne’s “bastard breasts” when comparing their physical appearances. Likewise, it is Myranda who scathingly asks whether Sansa-as-Alayne “ever knew] a Sisterman who could joust”, as according to Myranda “[t]hey clean their swords with codfish oil and wash in tubs of cold seawater” - proper performance of chivalry being so often equated in Westerosi society with aristocratic bearing. These two young women occupy similar, yet opposed, liminal spaces in their society (as I talked about before specifically with Sansa), operating in an aristocratic sphere that at the same time embraces and rejects them, but for very different reasons. 

What I could certainly see is that when (not if) Sansa-as-Alayne is in fact revealed as Sansa Stark in TWOW (ahem, Shadrich), Myranda helps verify Sansa’s true identity (having, again, perhaps puzzled out as much from observing her). More importantly, I hope that Myranda is not in fact an antagonist to Sansa out of some petty sense of jealousy (I had plenty of negative female relationships in F&B, thank you very much), but rather helps undermine Littlefinger’s governing thesis presence in Sansa’s life (before the final denouncement of Littlefinger by Sansa at Winterfell, anyway). For Littlefinger, who values and employs lies and deception as a fundamental aspect of his character, a figure who seeks out truthful information is indeed a disturbing, dangerous individual. Moreover, as a confident and (again, relatively) independently secure aristocratic young woman in her own right, Myranda Royce almost certainly represents to Littlefinger a threat to his isolation of and control over Sansa; just as Cersei separated Sansa from Jeyne Poole in the immediate aftermath of the purge of the Stark household to keep Sansa alone and friendless (remaking with annoyance that “[t]he gods only know what sort of tales she's been filling Sansa's head with” - that is, true stories of the violence and bloodshed of the purge), so I think Littlefinger fears the appearance of a potential friend to Sansa, unconnected to himself, who could begin to influence and encourage her in ways he would not be able to oversee. In perhaps identifying Sansa as a Stark, but then supporting her, Myranda may appear to Sansa as a deliberate rejection of Littlefinger’s description of her as a truth-seeking villain - and, in turn, begin the downfall of Littlefinger himself. 

[jackoshadows]

A tale of two marriages.

The vast difference in how Jon Snow deals with the marriages of Arya and Sansa Stark has already been mentioned. However, I noticed there are also other differences in the overall narrative as well.

First, two Kings - Robb Stark and Stannis Baratheon - refer to and use Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion to affirm that Sansa will never get Winterfell while positing that Jon Snow should be Lord of Winterfell.

“Young, and a king,” he said. “A king must have an heir.  If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north  would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.” - Robb Stark, ASoS

"By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."

"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow." - Stannis Baratheon, ADwD

In contrast, two Kings - Mance Rayder and Stannis Baratheon - are trying to save Arya Stark from her marriage to Ramsay Bolton for Jon Snow.

He glanced at the letter again. I will save your sister if I can. A surprisingly tender sentiment from Stannis - Jon, ADwD

Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl. - Jon, ADwD

It’s interesting that Stannis has this ‘tender sentiment’ while vowing that Sansa will never get Winterfell considering that Arya too is married to his enemy Ramsay Bolton. Maybe he intends for Ramsay Bolton to be dead soon which would free Arya to make other alliances. Or maybe he hates the Lannisters more than the Boltons.

Additionally there is no other mention of the Sansa/Tyrion marriage in the Northern context, no Northern houses or lords who bring it up, no secret plotting that revolves around this marriage. In contrast Arya’s marriage to Ramsay is mentioned in the four corners of the North, from the Wall to Winterfell, from Deepwood Motte to White Harbor and is a driving force for many of the characters’ actions and plotting. It’s more important in terms of ‘The North Remembers’ and Northern uprising against the Lannisters in King’s Landing, the Freys and the Boltons considering it revolves around Lady Arya Stark present in Winterfell.

This is why - as GRRM has pointed out in interviews - Arya’s marriage to Ramsay is a necessary and important book plot.

Unintentionally. A little change in a long narrative can have big changes further on. You know, when we remove Jeyne Poole from season one, then you don’t have Jeyne Poole to be the fake Arya, as happens in the book. So what do you do then? The butterfly effect has done that.

It’s not Jeyne Poole’s marriage to Ramsay Bolton that is driving all these mini subplots in the North.Yes, it’s sad that no one would care if Ramsay married Jeyne just like no one cared that Jeyne got send off to the brothels while Sansa was a high value hostage of the Lannisters. Just like no one cared about Jeyne’s story in the books until the show replaced her with Sansa and suddenly there were discussions about rape in the series.

GRRM: I was trying to set up Jeyne for her future role as the false Arya.   The real Arya has escaped and is presumed dead.  But this girl has been in Littlefinger's control for years, and he's been training her.  She knows Winterfell, has the proper northern accent, and can pose as Arya. Who the hell knows what a little girl you met two years ago looks like?  When your a lord visiting Winterfell, are you going to pay attention to the little kids running around?  So she can pull off the impersonation.  Not having Jeyne, they used Sansa for that.  Is that better or worse?  You can make your decision there.  Oddly, I never got pushback for that in the book because nobody cared about Jeyne Poole that much.  They care about Sansa.

In the books, it’s Arya marriage that has two kings trying to save her, the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch breaking sworn oaths, the Mountain clans and Northern houses marching with Stannis for the Ned’s precious little girl. They all think that’s Arya Stark in Winterfell. Arya may not be physically there, but it’s the marriage of Arya Stark in Winterfell in front of the Heart Tree, being given away by kin, Theon Greyjoy, that’s being used to hold the North and lend legitimacy to Ramsay Bolton as Lord of Winterfell.

[jedimaesteryoda]

You often miss how similar Jorah Mormont and Petyr Baelish are in some respects.

When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." -AGOT, Catelyn IV Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty, and that very night went to her father and asked for her hand. I was drunk, as much on glory as on wine. By rights I should have gotten a contemptuous refusal, but Lord Leyton accepted my offer. We were married there in Lannisport, and for a fortnight I was the happiest man in the wide world." -ACOK, Daenerys I

They pursued beautiful highborn women far above their station who, and both being southron women who married northern lords. Petyr pined for Catelyn Tully, and fought a duel for her hand against her betrothed, Brandon Stark. Jorah won a tourney with the favor of Lynesse Hightower, he crowned her queen of love and beauty and managed to marry her when he asked for her hand.

Their stories have a romantic element to them with Petyr dueling for Cat's hand and Jorah winning a tourney with Lynesse's favor, but they end up being subverted with neither getting a happy ending. Petyr loses the duel and is nearly killed, and then SAed by Lysa and sent from Riverrun. Jorah's marriage didn't work out, exhausting his family's coffers to provide her the luxuries she was used to and after selling poachers to slavers, which forced him into exile. Catelyn ended up marrying Ned Stark and Lynesse ended up leaving Jorah to be a merchant-prince's concubine.

After that, they found themselves in service to women with Lysa Arryn having Jon Arryn raisie up Petyr and him later serving Queen Cersei while Jorah ending up serving Daenerys in exile. They also end up betraying the people they serve with Littlefinger having a hand in the War of Five Kings and being behind Joffrey's murder, killing Lysa and Jorah spying on Daenerys.

"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them." -AGOT, Daenerys VII "I'm a good girl," Jeyne whimpered. "They trained me." -ADWD, Theon

Another thing they have in common is their attitude towards children and sex slavery. Petyr took the orphaned Jeyne Poole, forced her into sexual slavery at one of his brothels as shown by the whippings she endured for refusing and mentioning "she was trained." He then sent her to Ramsay Bolton of all people, likely not being ignorant of the things he had heard about him. Jorah had no qualms selling kids into sex slavery en masse, and when Dany tells him to stop Eroeh from being raped, he initially pushes back saying the Dothraki are claiming "their reward."

"You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ." "Might have been," he admitted, with a rueful smile. "But you're not, are you? You are Eddard Stark's daughter, and Cat's. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age." -ASOS, Sansa VII "What did she look like, your Lady Lynesse?" Ser Jorah smiled sadly. "Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys." -ACOK, Daenerys I

It fits their creepy attitude towards the opposite gender with their fixation on young girls after the loss of their previous interests of affection. Petyr fixates on Cat's daughter Sansa Stark who does bear a noted resemblance to her mother while Jorah fixates on Daenerys who he admits looks like his ex-wife.

For half a heartbeat she yielded to his kiss . . . before she turned her face away and wrenched free. "What are you doing?" Petyr straightened his cloak. "Kissing a snow maid." . . . "You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ." -ASOS, Sansa VII It was a long kiss, though how long Dany could not have said. When it ended, Ser Jorah let go of her, and she took a quick step backward. "You . . . you should not have . . ." "I should not have waited so long," he finished for her. "I should have kissed you in Qarth, in Vaes Tolorru. I should have kissed you in the red waste, every night and every day. You were made to be kissed, often and well." His eyes were on her breasts. Dany covered them with her hands, before her nipples could betray her. "I . . . that was not fitting. I am your queen." -ASOS, Daenerys I

Their treatment towards these girls can be described as possessive and abusive. While posing to their girls as their protectors, they basically use it to enforce control over them. They force kisses on the girls, and when the girls make it clear they don't want them, simply dismiss them and continue to push. Petyr keeps Sansa in his custody under a false identity, effectively making him her guardian and keeping her completely dependent on him. Jorah tries to isolate Dany from other men in her life from Xaro to Barristan and Daario.

The main difference in Petyr is very vindictive, and works on the downfall of houses Stark and Tully over Cat's rejection and marriage while Jorah stays loyal to Daenerys and tries to seek her favor again. Neither man really takes accountability for the consequences of their actions.

Their fixations will ultimately prove to be their downfalls. Petyr underestimates the danger Sansa potentially poses to him as she is learning from him. Jorah in a desperate act, kidnaps Tyrion, and tries to go to Meereen to regain favor with Daenerys. He likely won't like the Ironborn suitor Victarion, and his actions will likely get himself killed.

[alicentcole]

i know this has been said up and down already, but thinking of jeyne poole’s got me thinking once again of how martin failed to give catelyn and sansa ladies. maybe arya was too young to have a companion, but sansa is clearly not, and she only has jeyne and beth and both of them are already part of the starks’ own household; no lord or lady of any northern house is benefiting from that. how come there weren’t young ladies from the north and the riverlands flocking to join sansa in king’s landing after she got betrothed to joffrey?

then there’s catelyn’s absolute dearth of ladies, like, no river lord sent his daughters and sisters north to wait on the lady of winterfell? no northern lord wanted to take advantage of the southron girl recently come to winterfell with the women of their own households? couldn’t even one of rodrik cassel’s late wives not have been even mentioned in passing to have waited on catelyn? maybe jeyne’s own mother? given castle cerwyn’s proximity to winterfell, you’d think lady cerwyn would make the most of it but apparently not lol

i guess giving sansa more ladies in king’s landing would be a mess of highborn hostages for the north in lannister hands so george got out of handling that?

[sansastarkmeta]

An early outline of AFFC written around 2003-04 by GRRM was recently shared on r/asoiaf. Read the original post here for more info.

Two entries are notes for Sansa POV chapters:

A)

SANSA DIVIDE CHAPTER – LF: CERSEI HAS OVERREACHED SHE'LL SOON BE DONE

LF of course stands for Littlefinger.

B)

SANSA ?OLD - RESOLVE TO BE SS & TAKE NORTH 1 - TOURNEY OF WINGED KNIGHT 2 - SWEETROBIN [WOOS? WEDS? unclear] 3 - NEWS FROM W.H. KILL THE MOUSE ④

SS very likely stands for Sansa Stark, and W.H. for White Harbor. The mouse of course refers to Ser Shadrich.

The people at r/asoiaf who transcribed GRRM's handwriting favor the reading 2 - Sweetrobin *woos, but *weds is also possible, as well as *wees although less likely.

The circled 4 seems to indicate the then total count of Sansa POV chapters that GRRM had already written drafts of (3) plus one he was planning on writing (already partially written).

As for what can be inferred from all this... The first note almost certainly became AFFC Alayne II. The second one seems to concern an unpublished chapter or chapters that GRRM moved to TWOW. Given it's been twenty years since he wrote this outline, this raises the question: does he still intend to follow this note? Assuming he does, there are some things we can extrapolate and speculate on:

Sansa will not lose herself into the Alayne persona, and is soon heading North to reclaim her identity and Winterfell/the region for House Stark.

The tourney of winged knights is mentioned in the TWOW Alayne I preview from 2015, so this indicates GRRM had the idea for it for at least a decade prior.

Interpretation of the line regarding Robert Arryn is dependant on the reading. If it's *woos it might refer to Robert's infatuation with Alayne, which we've seen in Sansa's last published chapter, AFFC Alayne II, and in the TWOW Alayne I preview from 2015. If it's *weds... the most straightforward reading would be that Robert marries someone, even potentially Alayne/Sansa. Considering Petyr's plans for rulership of the Vale which he reveals in AFFC Alayne II, both scenarios seem surprising.

News from White Harbor most likely refers to news of Ramsay's wedding to Arya Stark. There's no telling whether that includes the crucial detail that the bride is truthfully Jeyne Poole. Another option could be news of the mutiny at Castle Black and some kind of update on Jon, whether that's his death, his speculated resurrection or confusing reports about both and whether he was ever dead at all. Of course, the news could be a mix and match of all of this, too. Any of these options could be the catalyst for Sansa going North.

The strikethrough could indicate these ideas were either moved elsewhere or dropped entirely. Or perhaps GRRM returned to this page a second time and was denotting progress by crossing out passsages he'd since written/included in drafts?

Finally, kill the mouse either indicates that Sansa herself will kill Ser Shadrich or that his death will be featured in a Sansa POV chapter.

I admit I am not super knowledgeable when it comes to GRRM's interviews or any information outside the published novels, so if you're aware of anything that's been revealed in the past that might shed light on this outline, please share.

[kitnjon]

Sansa Stark Month 2023 - Day 07 - Jeyne Poole

Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Hello, do you think that the fact that D&D gave the young Griff/aegon VI plot For Jon Snow, is this an indication that young Griff is not a Blackfyre but really the son of princess elia martell?

Hello there, anon. You could also make the argument that as someone who hired the Pyrite Golden Company to fight for her cause for the Iron Throne, that Cersei might also have gotten some of Aegon VI’s plot line. I think Aegon’s non-inclusion was because D&D wasn’t sure why he was in the story, (especially since he’s only in a few chapters of the last published book, so D&D couldn’t really adapt the source material) because, as they said, “themes are for 8th grade book reports”. D&D often omitted (Arianne and Quentyn Martell, Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart), dumbed down (Varys, Littlefinger, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Septon Meribald, Ygritte), or combined characters (Aliser Thorne, the Umbers and Karstarks, Sansa’s S5 plot, Ellaria Sand for the older Sand Snakes) without regard for character development or narrative significance. This doesn’t mean Aegon isn’t Elia’s son; in fact, the show (and especially the spin-off show, House of the Dragon) embraced the idea that Tárgaryens (really Jon and Dány) were special due to their bloodline, which is a common criticism against the theory of Aegon not being a Târgaryen (having a better blood claim doesn’t mean that person is fit to rule); remember, in the scene where Gilly reveals that Rhaegar and Lyanna were legally married, she doesn’t even mention Elia’s name or that of her children, to make Jon’s claim and name “Aegon” (the main name for Tárg kings) that much more ✨ special ✨. In addition, the later seasons of GOT paid more attention to the Lannisters and their dysfunctional dynamic—to the point that Tyrion and Cersei are having cordial conversations by the end of S7–and D&D wanted to keep Cersei as the villain as long as possible (no matter how contrived it got, like the KL smallfolk accepting a queen who just burned down their main holy shrine) because Lena was one of the show’s best actresses, so they had her be the one for Dány to attack rather than Aegon. Then there was also the repeated attempts to hide Dark!Dany (though it had been foreshadowed since S1 when she burned her slave alive), and destroying a surrendering city to try to kill her nephew rather than a stranger would’ve made the crime seem worse to the audience (although in the last episode they basically held our hand and told us exactly why she had to die after KL’s destruction). I wouldn’t use the show as evidence for or against Aegon Son of Elia, because the show lacked the understanding of why the character would be important. Thematically speaking, it would make the most sense bookwise for Aegon to be Elia’s son, as the Tárgs’ most dangerous enemies to their power tend to be other Tàrgs, as well as undermining the Tàrg Exceptionalism that shaped a lot of their personalities.