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vashtijoy · 7 months

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haru: "we'll just take him out again"

Ah, this 1/10 line of Haru's, about what they should do if Akechi betrays them all a second time.

I've talked about Haru and Akechi before—she is overwhelmingly compassionate towards him. She shows him understanding he has not earned and does not deserve. She contrasts, in fact, with Futaba, who takes a consistently harsh tone with him—and well may she do so.

Haru is done dirty by the bulk of the fandom with this flanderised crazy axe mean girl schtick, and this translation does not help. So it's time for another big red....

Let's take a look.

tatakau: "to fight or battle"

Haru また裏切るようなら戦うだけだよ。 mata uragiru you nara tatakau dake da yo Plus, if he does betray us again, we’ll just take him out too.

mata uragiru you nara—"if he betrays us again, then we'll...". tatakau dake da yo—"we'll just tatakau him". But what's that verb; what's tatakau?

戦う tatakau means to fight, or do battle, or to make war on someone, or to oppose them. It's a common word. ALC has a number of examples:

戦うか逃げるかの反応 tatakau ka nigeru ka no hannou, "fight-or-flight response";

戦うことを諦める tatakau koto o akirameru, "to give up the fight";

戦う必要なく tatakau hitsuyou naku, "without even having to fight".

It is excessively common in P5:

Ryuji (before one of the robot minibosses in Okumura's Palace) こりゃもう戦うしかねーな! korya mou tatakau shika nee na! Looks like we're gonna have to fight. Haru (when you try to switch her into the party too early) 私も戦えるよ! watashi mo tatakaeru yo! I can fight too! Haru (before a robot miniboss) こうなったら戦うしか⋯! kou nattara tatakau shika...! It looks like we just have to fight!

tatakau is the word we translate as "fight"; "a fight" is often tatakai, from the same root verb. When the PTs fight in the Metaverse, they are tatakau-ing. And when they fought Akechi in the engine room? They tatakau-ed him:

Ann 同じヤツを憎んでるのに、なんで戦うの!? onaji yatsu o nikunderu no ni, nande tatakau no!? We both hate the same guy! Why do we have to go against each other!? Morgana 戦う前に笑ってたの⋯あれ、本心だろ? tatakau mae ni waratteta no... are, honshin daro? That smile before we fought… Isn't that how you really feel?

See? Let's look at Haru's line one more time:

Haru また裏切るようなら戦うだけだよ。 mata uragiru you nara tatakau dake da yo Plus, if he does betray us again, we’ll just take him out too. And if he betrays us again, we'll just fight him again.

the phantom thieves' ghost murder victim

The other key point is this: though this isn't present in the Japanese, the localisation still says "too". "we'll just take him out too". Who's that "too"?

They're not killing Maruki, despite Akechi's efforts. They didn't kill any of their targets. They didn't even kill Shido, who they all held responsible for the murder of Haru's father, and Futaba's mother, and who knows how many others.

In short: nobody is getting murdered in this line—except Haru, by the localisation.

"take him out"

In fairness to everyone who fast-forwarded all of Haru's dialogue and so thinks she's even worse than Akechi, cold-bloodedly planning murder as a form of revenge, "take him out" is a confusing choice of words.

"take him out" means to disable a target. This is how it gets its primary meaning of "kill him". It means to get something or someone out of your way, in a way that corresponds with its death or destruction—or, as in this case, with extreme violence; remember they KO Akechi in the engine room, just like every other boss.

This is why it's common in so many contexts—sport, business, politics. You take out targets in many fields, but you don't kill them! In the same way, Haru intends for them to eliminate Akechi as a threat, if he ever makes it necessary again.

Futaba makes this explicit to him the next day, on 1/11:

Futaba けどまた裏切ったりしたら、絶対許さない。 kedo mata uragittari shitara, zettai yurusanai BUT if you ever betray us again, we'll make sure you regret it.

Futaba says this right to his face: "if you betray us again, don't think you'll get away with it"; "if you betray us again, you're done for." She tells him this is his one and only chance.

(That zettai yurusanai, of course, is the same wording she uses about the men in black suits, and the men who killed her mother—it's fighting talk, blood debt talk. And it's interesting that she has clearly not yet put Akechi into that category. yurusanai is also the word Haru uses to him in the engine room, often translated as "I can't forgive you".)

context matters

Many common misunderstandings of P5's characters and plot boil down to something like this: an overfocus on one memorable line, at the expense of the bigger picture. Again, in fairness, P5 is a huge game, which makes this very easy to do.

But the fact that the Phantom Thieves have chosen not to kill comes up over and over. It is absolutely fundamental to them: their justice does not include murder.

Again: the fact that they don't go in for vigilante killings is what makes them better than Akechi! Part of the essence of their conflict is that Akechi has made bad choices that the PTs avoided—such as Ann's fateful choice to let Kamoshida live:

Just as with Ann and Kamoshida, I don't think the Thieves would stop Haru or Futaba, if they decided Akechi should die. But I also don't think it would pass without question, as Haru's "take him out" line does. Even if nobody else said a word, Makoto would say something. Because the Phantom Thieves are not murderers.

when someone shows you who they are, believe them

On top of that, if you want to read Haru's "take him out" as meaning she wants Akechi dead, you have to ignore everything else she says about him—and, frankly, every other time she's onscreen. Because Haru oozes kindness, compassion and thoughtfulness from her every pore.

Remember, Haru expresses compassion for Akechi, not hate. Here she is on 12/25:

Look at that. Commit it to memory. Show all your friends. Haru is glad Akechi is alive. She's glad he turned himself in and thinks he should pay for his crimes—but she didn't want him dead, and she certainly doesn't want to kill him.

In the engine room, when he's at the point of death, she's afraid for him. She runs forward to call to him; note that Futaba does not, and is at the back of the group, furthest from Akechi.

Even when Haru judges Akechi for what he took from her, she is sympathising with him:

When Cognitive Akechi arrives, Haru isn't just trying to stop Akechi turning on them to save his own skin. She empathises with him, and understands how complex his feelings towards Shido truly are—and why that puts them all in so much danger:

Say it again and say it loud: Haru understands Akechi.

but how does she really feel

Haru tells us her secret feelings in the safe room:

See? Just like Futaba, she doesn't want to be around him; she doesn't want him as part of the group. But she doesn't want to kill him.

That's not her nature. Haru is not a murderer. I'll say it again for the kids at the back: Haru is not a murderer. Her compassion is what makes her unlike Akechi. It's what makes her so much better than him.

She doesn't need to be his best friend to understand him. She doesn't need to hang out with him to see herself in his situation—because the two of them have so much in common. She can acknowledge that he wronged her without secretly (or not-so-secretly) wishing him dead. Haru is a better person than most of us, and her feelings about Akechi are complex.

what is the line actually about?

The sad thing is that Haru's "we'll just take him out" is a beautiful line.

Remember, Haru could be justifiably afraid of the prospect of being around Akechi. He's not safe. He's responsible for one of the greatest traumas of her life. But she shuts that fear down: "if he betrays us again, we'll just fight him again".

She removes his power over her—power to control her, to intimidate her, to make her afraid. Haru can stand up to Akechi and look him in the face, because she's surrounded by her friends. And her friends will stand with her. They prove it over and over in the third semester, when they repeatedly prioritise her feelings and Futaba's. It's made clear repeatedly that if either of them have a problem, Akechi will not be on the team.

So Haru is prepared to work with the scorpion by the river. She understands what made it how it is, and that it can only act according to its nature. But she'll be watching—and she'll be ready. Just like Akechi, who steps forward to fire on Maruki when the rest of them are paralysed.

It's just that Haru's bag of tricks doesn't include murder. Akechi has kept that in his back pocket—but Haru never had it in hers. It's a shame that Haru's clearsightedness here, and her readiness to act—something else she shares with Akechi—is so badly misunderstood as "lol funny murder psycho girl".

Akechi's second betrayal looks like them beating the shit out of him. I'm sure Haru would shoot him in the face a second time, and good luck to her. I'm sure the Phantom Thieves would, each and every one of them, make him deeply regret it before he was again turned in—voluntarily or otherwise.

But murder? No. That's never on the table. That's not Haru, and it's not the Phantom Thieves. And, ultimately, that's why they're the good guys, and Akechi is not.

revision history

Click here for the latest version.

v1.0 (2023/10/13)—first published.

#persona 5 #p5 meta #japanese language #haru okumura #goro akechi #long post #justice for haru

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samasmith23 · 2 months

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How Goro Akechi effectively serves as a dark foil to the Phantom Thieves' brand of rehabilitative justice

So... I understand that Goro Akechi is a pretty divisive character within the Persona 5 fanbase (especially his pre-Royal incarnation), but I have to admit, I honestly found his backstory and role as a sinister foil to Joker and the Phantom Thieves to be legitimately intriguing.

I loved how during the palace mission on the cognitive yacht of the corrupt ultra-nationalist politician, Masayoshi Shido, it is revealed that Akechi is not only the true culprit behind the mysterious wave of mental shutdowns & psychotic breakdowns that have occurred throughout the background of the entire game (including the deaths of both Futaba’s mother, Wakaba Isshiki, and Haru’s father, Kunikazu Okumura) but that he is actually Shido's illegitimate child!

Essentially, Akechi was the product of a dubious affair between Shido and a sex worker whom the former later discarded when he discovered that she was pregnant, driving her to depression and suicide shortly after Akechi's birth. Akechi spent his entire childhood being passed around as a “problem child” between various foster homes (highlighting Japan’s problems with how the country treats its orphaned children) before later being granted the power of the "wildcard" persona as well as knowledge of the Meta-Verse by the false god of control, Yaldabaoth.

While Akechi was a societal outcast similar to the members of the Phantom Thieves, he took the wrong message from his experiences. Akechi misguidedly believes that the only way to truly oppose the status quo that looked down upon him is to not only become a part of it (i.e. caring only about his good grades & celebrity status) but to destroy everything that he hates by reducing himself to Shido's right-hand assassin in the Meta-Verse, perpetuating mental shutdowns & psychotic breakdowns to Shido’s political enemies simply to get some semblance of recognition & validation from his abusive father before exacting revenge on him (whilst exploiting his "ace-detective" celebrity status to "solve" the crimes that he himself committed).

Essentially, once Shido finally became prime minister Akechi planned to whisper the truth about being the former’s illegitimate child, telling Shido that he was only able to get where he was due to the son he abandoned and labeled as a potential “political scandal” before murdering him.

Despite Akechi and the Phantom Thieves' mutual dislike of Shido however, Akechi is so fixated on vengeance that he does not care about the innocent lives he ruins and destroys in the crossfire to satisfy his own personal bloodlust. Instead of legitimately trying to reform society like the Phantom Thieves do, Akechi becomes a pawn of the very same systemic corruption that was responsible for his initial suffering. Akechi cares only about his own hatred & jealousy instead of empathizing with others who were also victimized by society’s ills. That is why when Joker has his rematch with Akechi on Shido's Yacht in the meta-verse, the two are visually juxtaposed between Joker standing strong alongside his teammates & friends, while Akechi remains alone, confused & angry. While there is a part of Akechi that regrets his horrible actions and even recognizes the potential for him & Joker to be friends due to their similar backgrounds, he's too far gone into his obsessive vendetta against Shido that he refuses to turn back and now desires to kill the Phantom Thieves in a misguided attempt to ease his internal conflict.

During the boss fight with Akechi in Shido's Palace, the detective prince repeatedly dismisses the Phantom Thieves' efforts to appeal to his common senses, believing that concepts like friendship and teamwork are foolish "cliched bullish*t... in this eat or be eaten world." While this attitude of Akechi's might seem unrealistically cartoonish on the surface, it actually makes sense when considering his background of being unfairly labeled as a "throw-away child" by Japan's foster care institutions. YouTuber LadyVirgilia goes into far greater detail about this in her excellent The Truth About Goro Akechi analysis video. There, she states that an overwhelming number of Japanese orphans are incapable of being legally adopted due to impoverished parents voluntarily relinquishing them from their care while still maintaining legal guardianship over them. Additionally, LadyVirgilia discusses how violent hierarchical power structures often form among the children within these foster homes, with younger orphans sadly being subject to bullying & abuse by their older peers.

While these facts are not explicitly stated about Akechi's backstory within P5 Royal itself, they can easily be heavily inferred due to the game's heavy emphasis on exploring themes related to Japanese sociocultural issues. The institutional failings of Japan's foster care system (combined with Shido's abandonment of his son while he was still in the womb), ultimately contributed to the development of Akechi's warped perception of the rest of the world. Due to being dismissed as a "throw-away child" and being forced to grow up in an institution that is unfortunately subject to high rates of systemic abuse & neglect, Akechi spent his entire life feeling unwanted & loved. Ideals such as friendship & companionship became foreign and unrealistic concepts to him due to having experienced nothing but society's cold & uncaring apathy. Consequently, Akechi became deeply jealous & hateful toward the rest of the world, misguidedly compelling him to want to prove his superiority over the rest of society by manufacturing his status as "the celebrity ace-detective and honors student who ultimately brought down Shido." But when Akechi encounters the Phantom Thieves and befriends their leader Joker, he begins to experience his first genuine bond of companionship. While Akechi maintains a legitimate appreciation toward Joker, he is simultaneously confused & unable to fully process these newfound feelings, becoming envious of Joker's ability to rise above his similar status as a societal outcast to befriend & protect others like himself. Consequently, Akechi projects his own failings & inability to legitimately rise above his tragic upbringing beyond his false celebrity status onto Joker & the Phantom Thieves, cruely dismissing them as "the trash of society" and blaming them for interfering with his revenge plot against Shido.

This empty & hollow existence that Akechi chooses to live is further reflected by the sole two personas that he utilizes during his boss fight: Robin Hood, who represents Akechi's false celebrity & law-abiding gentleman facade, and Loki, who embodies Akechi’s true personality as a deceitful trickster & psychotic murderer.

I personally couldn’t help but find all of these elements to be rather interesting & insightful about Akechi’s role as an antagonist/rival to the Phantom Thieves. It honestly highlights the tragic nature of Akechi's situation, since while he had the potential to utilize his deductive knowledge & skills as a "wildcard" Persona-user similar to Joker, he instead allowed himself to be consumed by his own hatred & madness. In contrast, while Joker was also abused by Shido by being wrongfully sued for “assault” when he tried to stop Shido from sexually harassing a random woman, Joker now fights against the systems of authority that criminals like Shido represent to prevent similar abuses of power from ever occurring again to others. Additionally, we also see dualistic parallels between Akechi and Joker's fellow Phantom Thief/potential-romantic partner, Makoto Nijima, since she too similarly previously fell prey to the misconception that “good grades and following orders are all that truly matters to be a worthwhile member of society.” However, Makoto, now utilizes her study skills to help the downtrodden & oppressed instead of for either her own benefit or because it’s what society expects from her, whereas Akechi exploits his false celebrity detective status to further his self-centered vendetta, innocent lives be damned.

In essence, if the Phantom Thieves embody the potential benefits of rehabilitative justice then Goro Akechi embodies the dangers of retributive justice (aka, revenge). To reference two of my favorite movies, Batman Begins and Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi, not only is there a strong difference between justice and revenge (one is about altruistic harmony whereas the other is about personal satisfaction), but the most surefire way to victory is by fighting to protect what you love rather than fighting to destroy what you hate...

The distinction between justice & revenge is made abundantly clear at the end of Akechi's storyline in the baseline game (i.e. before the Royal exclusive Third Semester new content), where following his defeat at the hands of the Phantom Thieves Akechi is suddenly approached by a cognitive duplicate of himself that dwells within Shido's palace. In addition to the Cognitive Akechi emphasizing the futility of Akechi's quest for acknowledgment & vengeance against Shido by revealing that the latter always intended to dispose of his right-hand assassin once he was elected prime minister, the cognitive duplicate also reveals the true depths of Shido's depravity when he states that he only ever viewed Akechi as a puppet to fulfill his own ambitions. While it is true that Akechi was so obsessed with revenge that he allowed himself to become a pawn of the corrupt status quo, it is exceptionally cruel to learn that this is how Shido has always viewed his own son (which is further punctuated by Shido later revealing to the Phantom Thieves that he secretly always suspected that Akechi was his illegitimate child due to how much he reminded him of his mother). It is this revelation in particular that allows the Phantom Thieves to better empathize with Akechi's tragic upbringing & circumstances. Even though they still seek to hold Akechi accountable for the murders that he committed at Shido's behest, the Phantom Thieves simultaneously recognize that in a sense, Akechi was also a victim of both Shido's cruelty and the systemic injustices of larger Japanese society.

This effectively culminates in the bittersweet resolution to Akechi's storyline in the base Persona 5 game. When the Cognitive Akechi duplicate offers his real-world counterpart one last chance to "redeem" himself in Shido's eyes by killing the Phantom Thieves in his stead, Akechi for the first time in his life decides to be his own person instead of being defined by the labels Shido and society had imposed upon him since birth. Choosing to no longer be a puppet of Shido's corrupt machinations, Akechi rejects his cognitive duplicate's hollow offer by instead turning his gun on the duplicate and his Shadow minions before sealing the engine room's watertight doors between himself and the Phantom Thieves. At the very end, Akechi was finally able to acknowledge that his desire for false appreciation from both his abusive father and larger society was ultimately worthless. Akechi ultimately sacrifices himself to allow the Phantom Thieves to escape, recognizing their true justice while entrusting them to do what he was incapable of by holding Shido accountable for his crimes & reforming society.

From a certain point of view, one could argue that the Phantom Thieves indirectly inspired a change of heart in Akechi by proving to him the validity of their sense of justice.

Overall, while I was initially indifferent towards Goro Akechi at the start of my playthrough of Persona 5 (and even outright skeptical & suspicious of his motives given his vocal opposition to the Phantom Thieves), by the time I got to his boss battle in Shido's palace I ended gained a deeper understanding and appreciation for what the developers at Atlus were attempting to convey with his character. Akechi effectively functions as both a cautionary tale about the dangers of allowing oneself to be consumed with thoughts of revenge, as well as a dark parallel to the Phantom Thieves who seek to legitimately reform society for altruistic rather than self-centered reasons. It was these elements that ultimately elevated Akechi into becoming one of my personal favorite members of P5's cast (right behind Makoto, Futaba & Ann...) from both a narrative and character writing perspective (especially with the Royal edition's overhauled confidant line for Akechi, which better fleshes out the latter's rivalry with Joker, and the player now has to progress manually instead of it being automatic)! And I am definitely curious to see how Royal's exclusive "Third Semester" content further fleshes out Akechi's character since I'm aware that he plays a major role in the new story content.

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