#like whatever if they’re annoying about the morality of incest shipping

[speedwayy]

.

[autisticandroids]

what do you think of wincest? you seem pretty pro ship

my opinion of wincest is as follows:

- personally, i dislike it. i think it’s gross and don’t want to see it, because incest squicks me out like it does most people. there are actually parts of spn, especially the early seasons, which i find difficult to watch because the incest subtext is so strong. this is one of the reasons i’m not as big a fan of 1-3: just HUGE amounts of incest subtext. like, it’s yucky to me. even 4-5 have it, though not as much since cas and to a lesser extent ruby are there to like, break up the pair, which is a real relief. it calms down significantly in the later seasons, though it still pops up occasionally in an unpleasant way. this is why you cannot base your show on the xfiles and then make your two main characters related.

- theoretically, i don’t think there’s anything wrong with finding a fictional dynamic compelling. hell, the writers of supernatural sure seem to find it compelling! the subtext is unbearable, and imo, there’s a reasonable argument to be made that the winchester brothers’ relationship is textually emotionally incestuous, which is like. yeah add that on the pile of ways that their dynamic is abusive and toxic. 

and more specifically, i find it hysterical when destiel shippers get on their moral high horse about ethics in shipping. like, my friends, destiel is perhaps the glassest house there is when it comes to ethics in shipping. in ANY OTHER FANDOM we would be the problematic pairing that only freaks ship. it’s just that supernatural has so much incest subtext that the non-incest ship gets to be the unproblematic one by default. like destiel is a comparatively healthy fish in an unbelievably toxic pond. in any other pond destiel would be the toxic fish.

- practically, i dislike wincest shippers because they are mostly assholes. i’m sure there’s a few okay ones, but on the whole they tend to suck. this is true for several reasons.

supernatural has a large conservative fandom, including conservative transformative fans. like, specifically, the show is very appealing to homophobes because of like. the way that it is. you know. so wincest appeals specifically to homophobic fans for whom the incest taboo and the gay taboo are of about equal strength - they see being gay as so immoral that you might as well be fucking your sibling. this is i think why wincest shippers tend to be conservative, and it’s DEFINITELY part of the reason why it’s so common to find wincest shippers who also insist that dean is straight. my friend hannah has some things to say on this topic here.

if i was a samgirl i would wake up every single day mad about wincest and go to sleep every single day mad about wincest, because it must be INESCAPABLE in sam content. like, most fandom content is tied to ships in some manner, and the biggest ship for sam is wincest. and that has gotta suck.

related to my last point, in order for a “ship and let ship” mindset to be reasonable, the objectionable content in question must be made easy to avoid. and wincest isn’t, it’s everywhere. it’s easier these days because there are fewer wincest shippers, but back in the day it was just constant. and even now, like. the other day somebody wrote a destiel fic on my destiel post, but it was destiel and implies wincest. on my destiel and only destiel post. like, that’s like putting rape porn on someone else’s post about sex. like, i think it’s important that people be allowed to write rape porn, because if they’re not allowed to write rape porn, they’ll do it anyway (rape fantasy is one of the five most common sexual fantasies among women, iirc) but since they’re not allowed to write it, they’ll 1) not warn for it and 2) come up with justifications as to why it’s not really rape. which are both worse than just acknowledging it and slapping warnings on it. but you shouldn’t basically send people rape porn unprompted, that’s what they call a dick move. like that crosses a line. in the case of the person who put wincest on my post, i messaged her about it and she apologized and explained that she hadn’t participated in fandom in ten years, and had only gotten back in after the destiel confession, which is like. that’s reasonable. social etiquette re:wincest is different now. but there are plenty of wincest shippers who DON’T have that excuse and who make themselves inescapable anyway.

to quote my friend hannah again, “my grand unified theory is that whatever it is that makes wincest shippers act like That is also shared by jaime/cersei shippers. it’s the narcissistic, misanthropic fantasy of a tiny closed world containing only two siblings who don’t need or care about anyone else and have absolutely no boundaries with each other”

there is a real serious difference between liking wincest in 2005 and liking it in 2021. destiel is such a juggernaut, and fandom culture has changed so much in regards to “problematic” content, that anyone who is still a wincest shipper in 2021 is either 1) just a complete stubborn asshole or 2) living in a fandom time capsule, and both of those things are not necessarily inherently bad, but (1) can lead to just having a rather unpleasant personality, and (2) can lead to being surrounded by levels of homophobia, misogyny, and racism that aren’t usually tolerated by modern fandom

anyway. i’m not “pro-ship” because calling yourself a proshipper or an antishipper is an annoying habit for whiny babies and i refuse to participate.

[fandomhammer]

Another round of sally face facts you don’t know:

You cannot dismiss the suicide note

commonly thought is not an argument, it was up for interpretation and it’s also common to think it’s about ghost hunting

Steve said it’s okay since they’re not blood related which is so fucking disgusting thing to say I would advise to NOT use in any discussion

Apart from the fact how many other shitty things his done (also in game events, like the insanely racist native plot line) so maybe don’t use the creator at your moral code

He also do everything for his fans for some reasons but IN game, which is the source that you primarily talk about, it’s always that they see each other as brothers

You said “oh they saw each other as just friends” but it’s not true

Maybe you’re right, lying is too strong wording, you just spread more misinformation which is already a big problem in sally face fandom. I guess some fake tales are also the reason for your og post.

Like, don’t get me wrong, Idc that much about incestous ship of some freaks or the fight in this fandom. It’s just annoying that anyone is trying to argument that shipping brothers it’s not incest because *insert invalid argument*

Sal and Larry are brothers. It’s canon, we could see it coming since ep 3 (it was foreshadowed, many people DID catch on it) and nothing will change that.

Just stop spreading misinformation and stop trying to argument it’s alright to ship it? Like it’s not even about discourse, it’s just sallarry shippers should accept the reality and tag their ship properly with right tag “incest” so no one can get triggered and stop trying to justify it, which usually means they don’t respect adoptive or step family just like Steve.

I did not dismiss the note, I forgot a small detail from it, because I haven’t played it in almost a year.

it wasn’t supposed to be an argument, I was just saying

Steve is NOT my moral code, that was supposed be like. “harass the grown man who made the fucking game and said the gross fucking thing, not a teenager on the internet who you disagree with.”

ok

I posted something accidentally incorrect onto my personal tumblr. it’s out there for anyone to read but I’m not taking personal responsibility for spreading misinformation. especially when there are people in my inbox yelling at me before anything “bad” has happened

my argument was never “shipping brothers isn’t incest” it was “I don’t personally see them as brothers” which might’ve been wrong, but you can’t make it seem like I said something I didn’t

ok yeah you’re right whatever

again I’m not even gonna accept my “spreading of misinformation” as a thing I actually did. I’ve posted every reply telling me I’m wrong. I’m wrong, I said it! but I didn’t say it’s okay to ship it, I said I don’t personally have a problem with it. my very original post that started this nonsense was correct - people in this fandom will hear you MENTION Salarry and accuse you of anything negative they can.

I am gonna say it again tho because some people seem to have a hard time understanding: INCEST IS WRONG. I RESPECT FOUND/ADOPTED/STEP FAMILY.

leave me alone now unless you have something genuinely constructive and true to say because I ADMIT IM WRONG

[maxmagi]

Some people here have been complaining about the people shipping Liu Kang and Kung Lao because the new Mortal Kombat movie has them as "cousins."

This is not the first tumblr post to clarify that they are not, in fact, cousins in the movie, so I don't know why people are still running with that idea.

Liu Kang explains that he was a stray plucked from the streets. He calls Kung Lao "shixiong," which means older fellow apprentice (male) / big bro disciple. The English translation, "cousin" is fuxking WRONG.

Their relationship is more like senpai and kouhai / senior and junior students training in one school, under one teacher etc.

To clarify,

In the movies, are they cousins? NO.

In the games, are they cousins? YES.

They're very distant cousins and technically can marry or whatever. We've seen and read that shit in a hundred Victorian novels and movies but since they're straight no one bats an eye.

Do I think they should get married and have babies? No. My personal preference for them is as brothers. I wanna see more brotp content about these two but the well is dry and I just want more close interactions between them.

Whatever and however you see them as, that's up to you. But don't go around acting morally high and mighty by calling their shippers perverts or immoral or incest fanatics when they're only basing it on the fact that the actual Chinese/Mandarin word spoken was "shixiong" which is not in fact "cousins."

If the producers retcon that in the sequels and go, "Well, look, they're actually closely related cousins!" That would be a different story and so "cousins" would be essentially appropriate.

All I'm saying is don't spread misinformation, especially about that cousins part. It annoys anyone who knows what "shixiong" means.

EDIT: Word of God is that they are not in fact blood related in the MK games. So haters have no grounds to stand on when accusing the shippers of promoting inc*st.

[mylittleredgirl]

~dear yuletide author~

this is the first time i’ve done yuletide, so i didn’t realize assignments went out so quickly! hopefully, dear author who was lucky or unlucky enough to get me, you’ll have waited a moment to click the link so i can extend to you all my love and gratitude!

i’m pretty easy to please so You Do You and i’m sure to love it, but if you’re stumped, here are some lists of things i like! perhaps one will inspire you. [edit: i just looked at someone else’s dear santa letter and realized that i got Very Distracted talking about everything i love about... everything... and so this is way too much information! please grab any one random bullet point anywhere in here and pretend that’s all i wrote.]

(general things i like, general things i don’t like, and then i flail about what i love in each requested fandom)

general things i am delighted by, grab bag edition:

happy or hopeful endings

reunion/rescue/oh-my-god-you’re-not-dead...

... seriously, just, hurt/comfort me right up, throw some pining in there and i will probably re-read the fic every day for the rest of time

(while we’re talking about pining, jealous pining is the best kind, but see above re: happy or hopeful endings)

... OR, if you’re not in the mood for that kind of ~drama~: slice of life! i really enjoy silly domestic nonsense that reveals something about the character(s)

episode-related fic 😍

friendship fic: either as pre-romance between the main pairing, or pairing characters having meaningful supportive friendships with other characters

if you want to write kink fic: light bondage; masturbation (mutual or of the pining variety, whichevs); amtdi (or, you know, an equivalent for non-space fandoms where aliens probably will not make them do it -- basically: dubcon = yes please, noncon = no thanks)

general things i don’t enjoy:

character death: real life is hard enough, people

character assassination: just assume i like everyone in canon enough that i don’t want to see them dragged too harshly, including canon love interests that are not my preferred pairing

incest: Can We Not (some of you fuckers have made a strong case for an exception for that Doom movie but i’m still. nope. non-incestual family relationships are my eternal fave tho!!)

crossovers

AUs, with exceptions (a good spy thriller AU is hard to turn down)

requested fandoms:

sga rpf

ahh, the pretty hell

i’m shamelessly (or shamefully, depending on the day?) in love with torri/joe, but i also really like general cast shenanigans! 

if you’re going sgarpf but ~not~ torri/joe, i’d prefer neither of them be romantically involved with anyone else in the cast but joe’s like, real life marriage is cool

i’m really into the ~Oh No We Mustn’t~ (or the corollary: ~Oh No We Did~) nature of it all

and joe being jealous really works for me

i’ve written them before and it’s all on ao3, but locked to logged-in readers only

jake 2.0

omg, this is absolutely the first thing i think of whenever someone says “rare fandom”

i love it i love it it’s so adorable i. love. it.

i adore jake & diane together as frustrated what-are-feelings? nerds or in the oh-god-THESE-are-feelings phase equally :)

this fandom is perfect for the fearing-for-your-life rescuing trope, just saying

but this fandom is somehow ~also~ perfect for just hanging around playing scrabble and not knowing how to just Make A Move, You Nerds 

lost in space 2018

john and maureen have had a life together and then they imploded and then they got back together and are Very Sexy and really, anywhere in there, they’re good for all moods:

family fluff, especially of the flashback variety

ze angst during season one

gen and being good parents

did i mention they are. very sexy.

for this fandom let me throw out there that i am not into robot-fucking. one look at the ao3 tag makes me think this is important to clarify.

twin peaks

i haven't actually seen "The Return" and probably won't get to until after Christmas, so I'd really prefer fic set in or primarily using canon from the first two TV seasons! 

i listed Audrey, Dale, and Harry but you don’t need to include all three. audrey’s my fave of faves.

i ship audrey/dale but also like to take into account that dale cooper is an Upstanding Morally Responsible FBI Agent

i ship harry/dale too

i love friendship fic and canon-relationship fic and the entire wacky cast of characters so... whatever floats your goat

canon divergent AUs are fine, because like, Wow, is canon ever cruel 

the good place

i love! these nerds! so much!!

seriously ALL of these nerds, i love them. feel free to go off-script and include anyone you want and no one you don’t want. 

i ship chidi/eleanor and janet/jason and i friend-ship absolutely everyone

i really enjoy all the other ship/slash pairings too

except that i’m strongly in the aroace michael camp so platonic otps only for our fave reformed demon

this show is the greatest example of the greatest trope: characters annoying each other into deep eternal affection. 

and seriously: whatever!! i love these characters and these fandoms and the whole idea of surprise wonderful fic so i am guaranteed to love whatever you do!

[jbuffyangel]

there were a pair of targaryens who lived back when the dragons still grew to be strong, long before they went extinct. they were siblings who ruled together and were beloved and good. an epic power couple with their dragons. i have a feeling that jon and dany will take after them

Anon #2 said: i agree with basically everything you said GOT wise however i have to point out, dany killed people no more or less the same as jon has. she just used a different weapon. its even in the script that jon wants to argue over how she handled it but that he couldnt because it would make him a hypocrite, so he doesnt. as for the incest thing, its not something questioned in the universe. also i think the magic in targ blood may negate it? also neds parents were both starks and jamie’s both lannisters

Yeah… like I said I know incest is a thing on Games and even if there’s magic blood or an ancient sibling power couple or whatever it still doesn’t change the fact Dany and Jon are related. I didn’t read the books either so if it’s not included on the show then it doesn’t exist to me. Yes, I know this makes me annoying but I’m a lazy television viewer.

I don’t really agree incest isn’t questioned in the universe. 

From what I’ve seen on the show the union between Dany and Jon was met with some trepidation particularly on Tyrion’s part and that’s before he knows they’re related. Incestuous relationships on Games are presented in a more negative light (Jaime and Cersei). I don’t feel like the writers are saying incest is good. And characters’ reactions to incest has been less than positive. I mean, Bran was shoved out a window so Jaime and Cersei could keep their relationship (and children) secret. That’s not exactly a winning endorsement of their characters or relationship. 

There’s a reason Jon and Dany’s blood relations is being used as one of their big romance hurdles. Dany may not have a huge issue with it because she was raised Targaryen, but Jon was raised as a Stark. Methinks he’s gonna have a problem with it.  Then again maybe he won’t. Dany is gorgeous. What do I know?

I understand it drives people mad when I say I’m not a huge Dany and Jon shipper because they are the focus of the show. The whole momentum is building towards this romance. I get a lot of “Here’s how the incest is okay” explanations much like these. I’m completely fine with the explanations. I just have a very “Cool motive. Still murder” response to it all. 

“Cool explanation. Still incest.” This is not a judgement on anyone who does ship them. Ship away friends! Like I said - I understand incest happens on Games. I’ve accepted it. It’s just never not going to weird me out. I know Jon and Sansa are a big ship too and yet again I’m all, “But cousins” about it. There’s only so far I can go down this rabbit hole ya know? This is one of the reasons I like Jaime and Brienne. No problematic sharing of DNA. 

I will say I am far more in favor of Dany and Jon than I am Cersei and Jaime. I’m also not opposed to Jon and Dany winning me over more in Season 7. It just didn’t happen in Season 6, but there’s lots of story left to be told.

And yes that’s a fair point about Jon. He’s killed a lot of people too. But that was army against army. Man again man. Sword against sword. Drogon is the mystical version of a nuke. I have a very hard time saying using dragons against men is a fair fight. 

It kind of felt like Dany was dropping the bomb on Hiroshima. Maybe she was right right to do so. I have no love for Cersei, but that’s one hell of a gun our girl is packing ya know? Drogon must be used wisely. But when used make it awesome, which she did. Mostly I was just excited to see him blow shit up. 

I always thought the scene where Dany burns the father and son was very interesting. She was always freeing people from bondage and giving them hope. But in that particular scene she was very much a conqueror ruling by fear. I think that’s just the name of the game when you are vying for the throne, but it was meant to show a more ruthless side to Dany. 

No different than Jon hanging a young boy for trying to kill him. The difference is Jon is plagued with guilt whereas Dany seemed more resigned to her decision. All I’m saying is I think the writers are playing with a darker edge to Dany more than they are with Jon and I’m excited to see where it all goes in S7. 

I don’t read the scripts, sooo that doesn’t really change anything for me, sorry lol. But like I said I care very little about applying real world morality to Games because it’s a show with dragons. I think there’s some wiggle room. ;)

[gascon-en-exil]

Octopath Traveler Liveblogging

Chapter 2 for Primrose, Therion, and Tressa. As everyone except Olberic is slightly underleveled I’m doing these in order of recommended levels.

Also note that since this deals with story content past the opening chapters there will be spoilers.

Primrose

...Are all of her stories going to involve prostitution in some way? Not that I think that’s necessarily a bad thing since sex work is rarely addressed in gaming - and by this point they’re not even playing coy by trying to pass them off as dancers - but it would be kind of funny if her remaining two chapters found a way to work that in somehow too.

Stillsnow is pretty and chilly and not really the sort of place one would associate with brothel work, but I guess that might be the point. We can only assume Primrose found something thicker to wear off-screen like she said she would, lest this be a rehash of Silvia in Silesse in FE4. At least resident prostitute Arianna is dressed for the weather. The church of the Holy Flame also has a presence in the town, though that largely manifests in a bizarre interlude between the chapter boss and a priest who lost his daughter (gah, pseudo-Catholic priests with legitimate children again!) to suicide and is given one of the boss’s girls as a...replacement? That’s got to be some kind of milestone for weird and tangential incest subtext.

The theme of this chapter seems to be steering Primrose’s story toward a contemplation of revenge and the satisfaction it may or may not bring, but as far as JRPG philosophizing goes it works well in context. 

As for the boss fight, it was long but not very difficult. I was grateful to have everyone with their secondary classes if only for the added damage variety, and my overleveled cleric!Olberic was indeed incredibly useful for both tanking and healing. I wished I’d brought someone who could cure status, because the boss has an annoying move that stuns characters for several turns.

Party banter highlights: Cyrus likes the idea of dancing but is bad at it, Tressa is the party’s designated little kid (even though the wiki says she’s 18 so she’s not that young), and Alfyn gets a no homo moment that’s probably more about showcasing how unworldly he is. The broader discussion of House Azelhart’s motto gets commented upon not by Ophilia but by Olberic, likely because it’s referencing faith in oneself and one’s convictions instead of any religious faith. H’annit has mementos of her deceased parents, which is notable as it indicates that she doesn’t see her master as a father figure. Fathers already feature fairly prominently in the stories of all three other female characters, so that’s good for variety.

Therion

Meanwhile the overarching theme of Therion’s chapters will be convenient eavesdropping. Also propositioning random people in taverns for information, in what we must assume is a totally heterosexual way.

I don’t recall it ever being mentioned what exactly Orlock was researching the dragonstone for, although reading spoilers online suggests that it has to do with blood magic or something like that. It doesn’t come across at all in his boss fight apart from perhaps his ability to summon a golem after his lackeys have been killed. He’s got an interesting mechanic where said lackeys can guard his weaknesses, meaning he can take damage but can’t be broken.

Oh, and Orlick and his former colleague were totally gay for each other, and all the “like a brother to me” denials in the world isn’t going to clean up that subtext. Interesting how we seem to be building up to Darius betraying Therion at some point in the past - another tale of jilted gay lovers?

Party banter highlights: First of all I have to point out that getting these conversations is an utter pain in the ass, and constantly switching out your party at every plot marker to check for one drags down the pace of the pre-dungeon segments of the chapters. Even doing that I managed to miss H’annit’s, and it doesn’t seem like there’s a way to go back and see them apart from YouTube...which I naturally did because there was no way I was redoing that long boss fight.

Anyway, most of the banter for this chapter centers around Therion’s profession and how the other characters react to that. Tressa doesn’t like that he chases rumors, H’annit doesn’t like that he steals, and Primrose would like him to add some more flair but he won’t because no homo (probably). Olberic surprises Therion by revealing that he actually has a mind for tactics and isn’t the dumb meatshield he first appears to be. Therion flirts with Ophilia either genuinely or to fluster her - I’m going with the second one - and on the other hand Alfyn wants to take the guy out for drinks. Given something I read recently on a sidequest involving Zeph, this is less homewrecking than it sounds; I think the overall intention is to clear the playable cast of their NPC connections and leave them free to be shipped with each other in whatever arrangement one prefers.

Tressa

This doesn’t really feel like it’s shaping up to be Tressa’s story, to be honest. Between the unidentified author of the journal she’s following and new rival merchant Ali it’s a little hard to see where Tressa herself fits in not counting her role as obligatory player surrogate. Ali is interesting, sure, but the problem is that he’s too interesting and too directly involved in the conflict of this chapter, both in how he introduces Tressa to her latest money-making scheme and then one-ups her and later in his attempted opposition to Morlock. Meh, from the sound of it he won’t be making a reappearance until her last chapter, but then there’s still the journal author hanging over her otherwise aimless travels in the name of doggedly ethical mercantilism. As to how this chapter works as a treatise on fair business practices, it...sort of does? Obviously monopolies and price gouging are bad and get personified in the form of an obese rich guy who won’t fight his own battles (like Oliver from FE9 only less delusional), but then we’re also supposed to be questioning the smooth-talking sales pitches of Ali and his father because it’s sort of lying? I have no idea, and at this point I’m more confused than anything by Tressa’s personal moral code.

Oh, and this is the third dungeon to be somebody’s house. H’annit’s first dungeon is a forest, can there maybe be another of those? Or anything else? I have nothing to say about the Omar fight, and overall I’m still finding these bosses to be fairly easy even when they hit hard. Having an overleveled tank who can also do group heals and revives is OP.

Party banter highlights: Not much this time. I know I’m biased since I don’t find Tressa all that engaging on her own, but the other characters don’t contribute all that much here either. Primrose gets a motivational speech, Ophilia might have a crush on Ali, Tressa and Therion continue to not get along (and not really in a UST way), and H’annit disapproves of Tressa’s love of money which is amusing from a gameplay mechanic perspective: a Rogue path character doesn’t care for the motives of a Noble path character. Alfyn gives her some advice on friendships re: Ali that will sound a lot gayer in hindsight if the game decides to start shipping Tressa/Ali

[thefudge]

not here to convert you or anything but i'm kinda surprised u hate j*nsa as much as you do - or at least find it bland as hell - do u hate all aspects of it or would you ship it at a certain angle, if approached a certain way? again, not tryina convert you lmaoo ship & let ship, it's not monogamy in this trash world. I just thought the incest would be up your ally? Also a lot of the fic can be so...missionary so idk, I thought that's why it holds no appeal? words not working rn. just confused

(same j*nsa anon here) alternatively do you ship robb x sansa? sorry, but you’re pretty much the incest lady to me. LOOK - is it because you’re too diehard petyr x sansa to fuck with the rest? Because I’m petyr x sansa trash as well, I contain multitudes. I JUST WANNA HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS, BECAUSE AGAIN, YOU’RE THE INCEST LADY SO I JUST WANNA KNOW IF IT’S THE SHIP THAT BORES YOU OR FANDOM. UR THOUGHTS ARE ALWAYS FASCINATING. I JUST LIKE READING WHATEVER IT IS YOU COME UP WITH. IF YOU DON’T MIND

“you’re the incest lady” ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 

haha friend, that’s why subjectivity is so wonderful (love that walt whitman quote), but let me break it down for you

you’re absolutely right that j*onsa should be up my alley. but there are several reasons why it hasn’t had that impact on me

1. petyr/sansa is the first ship that got me into asoiaf/got and it has stuck with me throughout the ages. it really is my kind of dynamic, no doubt about it, especially due to aidan gillen’s really strong work and the fact that petyr baelish is, without exaggeration, one of the best literary characters of the last 30 years (imo). and he brings out the best in sansa. by “best” i don’t mean moral rectitude lol. sansa really comes into her own around him. is he taking advantage of her ? absolutely. is she taking advantage of him? she’s learning how to. it’s a smart, riveting duo that doesn’t even have to be romantic for me to love it. in fact, i prefer it when it is cerebral and manipulative with a small dash of genuine emotions. 

but i AM a big multishipper who likes aaall kinds of things so why can’t i get behind this? 

2. my big gripe is with the show, where j*onsa has been introduced as a dynamic (i DO see book signs that they will be reunited but it’s not a Thing there yet).  basically, GoT has done a very poor job with them. sansa stark has stopped being a legitimate and full-rounded character since season 4. and her characterization really took a nosedive in the past two seasons, which - you guessed it - is when she reconnects with her brother, jon. FIRST of all, they had sansa apologize to him as if she had taunted him all his life, as if she had been the big bully of his youth. MASSIVE EYE-ROLL. it’s as if the writers didn’t know how to make them bond after such a long time. ohhh i don’t know, how about jon remembering those times in their childhood when sansa taught him how to talk to ladies which is a CANONIC event??? they could’ve shared a drink and laughed about his poor manners and sansa could’ve said that he had certainly “improved”. and maybe she could’ve added “i wish i had known you better”, to which he could’ve said “so do i.” SEE. see how easy that was without devaluing the characters!!! Secondly, they don’t show them talking about legitimate, important, intimate things. for fuck’s sake, i’m sure jon would like to know what happened in king’s landing and the eyrie etc. their lack of communication is why he doesn’t really listen to her advice, no? most of their show!conversations are about jon’s shallow man-pain or the glories of house stark. sansa is suddenly consumed with legacy and house-rights. and jon isn’t. and instead of talking about it, instead of asking sansa why she’s hellbent on this mission and maybe having a heart-to-heart about family and trauma…instead of ALL that, they just sort of mumble at each other and become increasingly frustrated with each other’s actions…AND OK, you’re gonna say, maybe that was the point, for them to butt heads and clash BUT

3.the show is afraid to explore their actual feelings/frustrations. sansa will sometimes be angry at him and jon will retaliate, and just when you think things are going somewhere…they both sort of shut up and fold back. the same pattern is obvious during their “affectionate” moments. it’s like they’re both holding back, either due to poor direction or poor writing, or both. the best scene so far still remains their initial hug. 

4. jon snow has also become a sham of a character on the show, and it’s hard to enjoy him with sansa when i can’t stand the way he’s written. it feels like he has been stripped of nuance and personality. so in one scene he chokes littlefinger because he’s being “protective” (possessive) of sansa….then that…just gets dropped. he receives information arya and bran are alive and is…stone-faced about it. like he’s super chill, not really affected by anything. the real jon would’ve fucking flipped, he would’ve tried to see them. and don’t tell me all of this is gonna be picked up in the 6 episodes of the last season…because i have lost all faith in d&d. 

5. i do understand why ppl ship it and i do see book-evidence for it possibly being a stealth endgame but the books haven’t butchered the characters and will surely get there more organically? the show had EVERY opportunity to convince me this dynamic was gold and wasted so much of it, imo. . i’m sure fanfics do a better job with it, but i just…every time they’re on screen it’s so wooden, and i’m certain it’s because they’re being directed by idiots. i’m sure sophie and kit want to show more feelings and act like actual human beings but i assume they’re not allowed. just like sophie and maisie were not allowed to act like sisters. 

6. their partnership ends up devaluing sansa. which annoys me. real jon would absolutely never. hell, real jon would spit on show!jon IM SORRY IT’S TRUE. that’s what’s actually really annoying about it. it could’ve been done so well but….for me it ended up being a bland mess. i’m sure that fics and fandoms elevate it, tho. 

7. even my beloved petyr/sansa has been cheapened by the show to some degree, so you can see why other ships take even harder falls

OKAY BUT robb/sansa u’ve got my attention!!! that would be so fraught! because they’re both tully kids, deep down. aaah. 

and honestly, i could be for book!j*onsa too, if it were written well. but show!j*onsa is a goddamn mess. the show is a goddamn mess. 

[cooliogirl101]

1, 4, 9, 19, 20, and 22 please. From whatever fandoms you feel like.

1. What ships in your fandom do you just not get?

Hmm...tough question because even when I dislike a ship, I can usually see where people are coming from. But ships that just make no sense to me whatsoever...there’s Chrollo/Kurapika from HxH which yeah, is just straight up incomprehensible to me. I’ve seen a couple Byakuya/Rukia fics which is just weird. And any incest fics. 

4. Do you have a NoTP in your fandom? Are they a popular OTP? 

I wouldn’t say that I hate any ships with a passion, but there are ships that I dislike/disinterest me enough that I’ll only read them if I really, really like the author. Draco/Harry is one, and that’s definitely a popular ship. Draco/Hermione is another, along with Ichigo/Orihime and SasuSaku. 

9. Most disliked characters? Why?

I guess I’m weird in that when it comes to characters, how much I like them isn’t a measure of how good they are. Rather, I’d have to say that the trait I value most is...probably loyalty? Like in HxH, I ended up liking most of the Phantom Troupe because sure, they may be awful people but at least they’re loyal to each other. Ging and Iemitsu I ended up disliking because I don’t see them as loyal to family. Competence is pretty high up on my list of valued traits too. So my most disliked characters are those who are either straight up pathetic, or have betrayed someone (Hisoka doesn’t count; you can’t betray someone if you never gave them your loyalty in the first place), or both. Aka characters like Peter Pettigrew.

19. What is the one thing you hate most about your fandom?

This kind of applies to fandoms everywhere but I honestly hate how entitled some people can get when it comes to fanart/fanfics. People demanding an author to update more, people complaining to artists for not drawing what they want, and no. Just no. 

Also, shipping wars. Especially in the Bleach and Naruto fandoms. Like seriously, they’re so dumb. 

20. What is the purest ship in the fandom?

One of my favorite ships, and the purest ship I can think of, is Luna/Neville.

22. Popular character you hate?

Not a fan of Draco, tbh. Something about Orihime’s personality rubs me in the wrong way, although I wouldn’t say I hate her. Al from FMA occasionally annoyed me (although I adore him in fanon?). 

Ironically enough, if a character has too strong of a moral code, I end up feeling rather irritated by them at some point or another. Similarly, I don’t like villains with no code of honor (it can be a pretty messed up one, but you have to have some rules to abide by).