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mneiai · 5 years

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Thoughts on Jon’s parentage in light of GoT

In light of the really, really awful ending of Game of Thrones, a lot of people are wondering if GRRM might not change some of the thought to be absolutes of his canon that have not yet been revealed, to distance himself from the show.

Now, GRRM has said in the past that he does not believe in changing his reveals just because people have guessed them. But this situation is, admittedly, a little different. And, talking to someone last night about it, I decided to walk through a major theory that appeared in the show but not yet in the books. R+L=J (that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna) is one of the most popular theories of ASOIAF, and possibly the longest existence of any theory not yet proven. It's canon in GoT, but technically it might not be too late to change it in the books, depending on what GRRM has planned.

(CW rape, as you’d expect considering, and incest)

The basic breakdown of Jon's parentage is that it has to be something either so horrible/shocking and/or dangerous that Ned could never tell anyone else about it and that he would send Jon off to potentially die in the cold surrounded by rapists and traitors and still think he didn't yet deserve to know the truth.

We also know that Jon had to have been conceived after Lyanna disappeared, as he was realistically younger than Robb when Cat first saw him and babies age very, very quickly, so a many months difference in age ends up being huge (Robb was born nine months after Ned “road to war”).

N+A=J is probably the other major theory that people go to after R+L=J, but not only would that make no sense to not reveal it (people already suspect Ashara is Jon's mother, it’s a probable redherring in the books), the timing doesn't work. People have to get super, ridiculously creative to explain how Ned and Ashara could have met up during the war, like Ashara sneaking around under disguise during a war and shit. And Ashara was known to have been pregnant too early for Jon’s age. The above requirements (of the secret being one Ned can't risk getting out and the timing of the conception) also makes it difficult to accept B+A=J, where people say Ashara might have visited Brandon in the Black Cells and had sex with him. Firstly, sex in the Black Cells? That seems unlikely in a lot of ways. Secondly, the ages would still not really work out. Ned would arguably keep it secret to avoid succession issues for Robb, but if that was the case there would be no reason to keep this from Cat. In fact, she might be way more forgiving knowing that Ned was putting their children's futures first. So, the "shocking"/dangerous part basically leaves us with three possibilities as far as present theories go:

Lyanna is Jon’s mother and either Rhaegar or one of his Kingsguard or companions is the father (and therefore everyone would think him possibly Rhaegar's son regardless)

Starkcest, with Lyanna as his mother and most likely Brandon as the father

Otherbaby, which is that a Stark man is actually his father, but his mother is an Other

Going backwards: Otherbaby seems unlikely not because of the timing (who the hell knows how long Others take to gestate, maybe their newborns age slower, etc) but because no one doubts that Ned entered the North with a baby. An Other wouldn't just jaunt down to Dorne to have a kid and Ned just coming North with a random baby he then abandons and never thinks about is pretty ridiculous. Also, if Ned knew the Others existed, surely he would have spent the last 14 years of his life caring way more about the Night’s Watch and may have been way hesitant to let a half-Other go to the Wall. So it basically hinges on some unfounded theories like with the other unlikely parentages, where the Other would have had to, say, cast a spell to make Ned forget or something. Starkcest is unlikely because of timing. Lyanna was with Brandon before she ran off/was kidnapped/whatever, but, again, that was very obviously before the war started. And the timing is a big issue not just because of Jon’s age, but also because of how Lyanna died--it's heavily implied she died soon after giving birth.

If Jon had been born months before Ned reached Lyanna (the war had gone on for about a year before the Sack, which was before Ned reached Lyanna)...then what the hell was up with her death? Ned doesn't smell the rot of very old blood and infection (Rhaegar had left way before that, remember, to go to KL and then go die in battle). Are we supposed to believe the KG were raping her? Or that she'd conveniently slit her wrists just before Ned got there? So, we get to Lyanna and someone she was with after her disappearance. Which would have been Rhaegar, Whent, and Dayne, and maybe some other men here or there. We don't know why Lyanna was with Rhaegar, the assumption is that it was so he could have his third head of the dragon (by this point Aegon was months old and they knew that Elia couldn't risk another pregnancy without dying). Maybe they were in love, maybe they had some deal where she'd give him a kid and he'd set her up with a comfortable life somewhere, maybe he kidnapped her to rape her, maybe he saved her from his father's assassins and went on the run with her, we don't know. The last two are where it's more likely maybe one of the other men are Jon's father. We know that the KG won't stop rape, but they could feel bad about letting it happen. Maybe one is sympathetic to Lyanna and they form some sort of bond. Maybe she asks for sex so Rhaegar isn't her only experience or maybe they even fall into a fucked up sort of love. On the run from Aerys means she's wide open to fall for a dashing KG or even maybe to seduce one of these men who couldn't marry her so she'd be "ruined" for marriage. But, again, it brings up the fact that Ned hadn't, couldn't, tell Jon, even though he considered Jon mature enough for the Night's Watch. And the very suspicious fact that Ned wanted Jon to have taken his vows--forsaking any claims he might have--before he'd be told. If his parents were, say, Lyanna and Arthur Dayne, telling Jon might hurt because Ned would need to admit he was Jon's adopted father, but it would also give Jon so much closure that anyone who actually cared that much about Jon would surely tell him. He'd have to impress on Jon that it was a secret he'd have to keep, because of Lyanna, but even then Jon claiming some Dayne heritage wouldn't surprise anyone, people would just assume Ned told him Ashara really was his mother. If it was Lyanna and Oswell Whent, that would have given Ned way more reason to tell Cat the truth--her mother was a Whent, Jon would have been her family to protect, too.

As for others that were known to travel with Rhaegar, well, JonCon is obviously out of the question. And most of the rest could have probably found ways to get Lyanna to their own lands/keeps, married her and gotten word back to their families, or any other number of possibilities that make it seem unlikely. (We don’t really know everyone with them and all of their marriage statuses, of course, but we do know what the culture is like as far as unmarried women, bastard children, etc).

But if Lyanna and Rhaegar were Jon's parents, it fills in all the gaps in his parentage.

The timing is perfect to pass Jon off as younger than Robb because he could have actually been conceived after Robb with no weird excuses. Lyanna could have died from childbirth as her death points to because that timing works. Ned would have come North with a baby, confirming how everyone believes Jon was born in the South. Ned could not risk telling ANYONE. One slip and Jon would be killed and Ned and his children would surely suffer somehow for his treason. He couldn't reach out to loyalists, because he was in fact still Robert's friend and didn't want to go to war against him. He couldn't tell Cat because he didn't know how she'd react at first and then because she clearly hated Jon so much that she might use it to get rid of him. He couldn't tell Jon because he didn't know how Jon would react, surely he'd be shocked and resentful and that can make a teenage boy say and do all sorts of foolish shit. And so he decided only after Jon took a vow that would mean he could not seek to claim the throne, when they'd be somewhere fairly isolated from the world, unlikely to be overheard, would Ned tell him. So, how can the books give us anything but R+L=J when it fits the best and was already in the show? Wouldn’t it mean a bunch of retconning? Consider: this would not be the first time GRRM retconned something. Perhaps the easiest to point out, in regards to Jon, is that he goes to the Watch believing it's his only viable choice, but then in a later book we find out about Ned's "dream of spring," which should have surely given Jon the impression he could become a lord. But there are lots more: Originally Lannisters were an Andal family, now they were First Men. The Blackfyre Rebellions didn't exist when the Hedge Knight was written. Arianne didn't exist at first and Doran had more than two sons. Jinglebell's personality. "Nuncle." Aerys I's wife was completely changed. The Estermont family tree. Renly's eye color.... Yeah, GRRM has no problem retconning. We also know he had to abandon plans before--his five year gap that ended up never happening almost definitely would have set Edric Dayne up as the Sword of the Morning, for example. It's entirely possible he could trash, like, half of Jon's upcoming storyline and just replace it with something else. Especially since it's likely almost all the succession issues are between Dany and fAegon and Jon's heritage most likely has more to do with the fight against the Others. There will probably be little signs of such, especially after the series ends and people go back and reread (RLJ is really, really heavily foreshadowed), but in the end it’s whatever GRRM makes it.

And that doesn’t really bode well for any other predictions/theories that came true in the later seasons of Game of Thrones, either.

#jon snow #anti game of thrones #asoiaf speculation #lyanna stark

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forme-iwrite · 6 years

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Asoiaf meme- Rules: Answer the 10 questions below. Then make up 10 of your own for the next person to answer and tag people thanks for tagging me @1nsaankahanhai-bkr

1.Are there any literary parallels between your favourite character and some other character?(I have many .I will probably make a list some day) I am sure there is but I can’t think of any right now. I will probably follow your lead and make a list of of my own one day. 2.What’s one thing you wished grrm explored more? I would love if he explored the characters of Irri and Jhiqui more, especially because they have been with Dany since the beginning. I feel like they and the rest of the Khalasar have been pushed to the side to almost no importance with each new book. I love Missandei but I feel as if GRRM brought her into the story replace Irri and Jhiqui as Dany’s female companions. I want to see more of all the female friendships in the series. I also wished he explored the history of other houses/regions besides the Targaryens. By which I mean I want to know more of Martell and Dorne specifically. 3.Is there a character that fandom loves but you despise (apart from elia’s husband) Jon Arryn. I see him get a lot of love and praise but I despise him, especially for how he disregarded the injustice that the Martells got. He was the one who actually declared war on Aerys because he asked for the heads of Ned and Robert but turns his head at the murder of Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia. Nevermind it’s not Jon it’s actually Robert Baratheon. He was an absolutely terrible king, father, husband, and friend. I think very little would have changed about him if he married Lyanna and he just uses her as an excuse. 4.Fave non canon pair? Elia and Arthur. Also Love Rhaenys x Robb and Doran x Rhaella. 5.If you could change one in- verse subplot what would it be? I don’t know if I would actually change anything because the story is still not finished, but the subplot that I found the most boring to read was probably the iron islands subplot. I know it probably has a greater importance but I just wanted to skip a lot of chapters that took place there. 6.What’s the one thing about your favourite character that you can’t stand or find irritating? The way Jon acts towards Gilly, especially when he makes her trade her baby with Dalla’s baby. 7.Is there anything that would make you defend your least favourite character?(eg- ragger was not madly in love. He was just mad) Maybe if Tywin Lannister didn’t go out of his way to murder innocent people. 8.Favourite Jon ship? (Although he is dead) do you think he will come back? I do not ship Jon with anyone but I liked the small interaction he had with Alys Karstark. I do think he will come back because “who his mother is” would not be such an important question within the books if that is where his story ended. I also think he has a big part to play in the white walker storyline but there is always that small doubt that he might not come back because a lot has changed since grrm started the series to now. 9.Your worst experience with fandom racists? I am lucky enough not to have experienced any of the racist in the fandom, which sadly there seems to be many. I am luck to follow people who have pretty much all the same interest as me. Also blacklisting helps a lot. 10.What do you think of Quentyn/young griff Quentyns storyline I personally felt was cut too short. Also it was not explored enough, I wanted to see more of his journey to essos and relationship with his friends. I feel like he felt a lot of pressure by both Dany and Doran, which was the reason he went in with the dragons. Though he should have listened to his friends and at the end his death falls mostly on his hands. I definitely feel like he was a good person with good intentions. He was only trying to make his father proud and bring justice for Dorne. His death really affected me because he felt like such an innocent player in this game. Why couldn’t the beginning of {The Queen’s Hand} chapter started with “The Dornish prince was three days recovering” instead of “three days dying”. Young Griff is such a mystery because of his involvement with Varys and illyrio mopatis. They are the main reason I doubt if he is Aegon, though I really want him to be. Even if he turns out to be an impostor, I hope he helps Arianne and Doran complete their plan. I immediately took a liking to him and found his storyline very interesting. He is well educated, trained, and knows the difficulties of life, not just it’s pleasures. He definitely has the qualities to potentially be a good ruler. There are parts where he does seem immature (ex. When he throws the chess board at tyrion) but overall he is not a bad person. From the previews of “The winds of winter” it seems like he is doing well and hopefully we will get more of him. Also because he is doing so well (captured both Storm’s End and Griffin’s Roost) I doubt Doran will question/care if he really is Aegon. There is a lot to say about both boys but my overall thought on them is that I love both characters.

My ten questions are: 1.Did you ever feel sympathy for a character you disliked? 2.Is there a setting you would like a P.O.V from? (ex. What is happening in the reach with the ironborn/ beyond the wall in Hardhome) 3.What do you feel was the most heart wrenching moment for you to read? 4.Which of the prologues did you find the most intriguing to read? 5.If you could go back and give a warning to one character who would it be? And what would you say? 6.If there is even an iron throne by the end, which of the contenders do you think would make the most reasonable ruler. 7.Do you have a favorite background character? 8.When you began the series was there a character you immediately liked but as the story went on you began to dislike? 9.Which of the houses/region would you love to get more in depth history on? 10.Out of Varys and littlefinger who do you think has created the most chaos?

@saantanico @aliadayne @laughingvioleteyes @askmamaindia @sayruq @astroboxuniverse @alyssaallyrion

#asoiaf #asoiaf meme #my thoughts #thanks for the tag!

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ktwrites · 7 years

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Ours is the Song- Chapter 5

Rating: T Summary: Daenerys seeks Bran's help to find answers to the questions she's been plagued with since before arriving at Winterfell. Read it on AO3 and Fanfiction.net

The vastness of Winterfell never ceased to amaze Daenerys. She was not sure what she had expected the first time she visited, but the sprawling castle complex and its surroundings had taken her by surprise. She walked through the Godswood alone, save for two Dothraki guards who followed her at a distance. By now they knew when to give their queen the space she desired. Trees of ash, hawthorn, oak, ironwood, sentinel, and soldier pine dotted the forest, as snow shrikes sang above her, but it was the ancient weirdwood, the heart tree she sought out.

She had excused herself once she finished her breakfast, leaving Jon alone with his sisters. They had spent so much time apart that she thought they deserved some time alone to discuss anything they might now wish to bring up in front of her. It was difficult, at times, to watch them together. Jon had been close with some of his siblings growing up. She had never known what that was like. She had been close to Viserys out of necessity, not affection, and Dany often felt undue pangs of jealousy at the easy way the Stark siblings fell back in line with each other.

In truth, Missandei was the closest thing she had to a sister. She trusted her above almost everyone else and she was one of the few people Dany knew she could speak freely to, especially when they were alone. They talked about their hopes, fears, and dreams for a better world that might one day come when the Long Night was over.

Perhaps she had spent too much time in the North, but Dany did not seem to mind the cold anymore. She had grown used to it. It made her feel strong. The cold as Winterfell was nothing compared to the cold atop the Wall and beyond. There, the wind crept inside everytime she opened her mouth and stole her breath away. At Winterfell, the cold was calmer, less harsh and there was always the promise of a bath at the end of the day to warm her and soothe her tired muscles.

The heart tree loomed before her in the wood, tall and pale. But for the crimson color of its leaves the tree might have been able to blend into the snowy surroundings. Sitting beside it, as she had hoped and expected, was Bran. Dany made her way over to him and waited for him to acknowledge her, though he never did. To be disregarded by any other person might have made Dany cross, but Bran was different and, after all, she had come to seek his help.

“You probably know why I was looking for you,” she said at length when the silence grew too long.

“It doesn’t exactly like work like that,” Bran said with a small smile that turned slightly sad. “I don’t seek out information like that, not in the present anyway. People don’t understand what a burden this can be. I didn’t ask for this...this gift.”

“But you were chosen for it,” Dany pointed out. “They chose the right person.”

“It’s fascinating and terrifying at the same time. Sometimes I feel like it is a curse.”

“But would you be able to help me? Help me look into my past. There is so much that I don’t know, so many memories that are blurred for me. I know next to nothing about my mother, save for that she died when I was born and my brother never forgave me for it.”

“What you’re asking isn’t without its risks and dangers.”

“I’m willing to take the risk, whatever the cost. I’ve…” she paused and glanced down at her gloved hands, searching for the right words. “I’ve been having dreams...maybe visions and I need to know why. Only you can help me. Please.”

It was not a request, it was a plea. Bran held her gaze for a moment, perhaps willing her to change her mind. Reluctantly, he placed his hand on the ancient weirwood tree and his eyes seemed to fall back into his head, showing only the terrifying blankness of the whites of his eyes. Dany had never witnessed one of Bran’s greenseeing visions and the sight frightened her. It suddenly seemed colder around her and though Bran was close to her, she felt quite alone.

The thought to wake or interrupt him entered Dany’s mind, but a yearning for the truth stayed her hands and she clasped them together tightly to keep from reaching out.

“Bran,” she whispered tentatively after minutes passed, glancing about to see if anyone else was around them. There was no one save for the Dothraki, dutifully keeping guard from a distance. She was not even sure he could hear her when he was looking into the past.

Almost as if he sensed her growing fear and discomfort Bran took a deep breath and his eyes returned to normal. He sat motionless- silent- save for the gasps of breath he was taking to regain his composure. He turned his face towards Dany, looked at her blankly and then looked away. She did not know Bran well, not even as well as she knew Sansa and Arya, but she never knew him to be uncertain, especially when it came to his abilities. He was generally blunt, to the point, and straightforward.

“Your grace, I…” he began, and it did not go unnoticed that he reverted back to formally addressing her, despite her request that he and his sisters do otherwise.

“You saw something, didn’t you?”

“Yes,” he swallowed. “Many things. You mother is not Rhaella Targaryen. Your mother is Ashara Dayne.”

Dany felt as if she was under water. She could see Bran’s lips moving, but his words seemed muffled. Surely, she had misheard him. Surely, he had not understood what he saw in his vision. It was impossible, unacceptable even. And yet… a voice from deep within her knew that what he said was true. There was so much she needed to know, so many questions rushing through her head.

“Tell me everything,” she said evenly.

“Daenerys, I don’t know-”

“Everything you saw.”

“I saw the Tourney at Harrenhal,” Bran began. “Ashara Dayne was there as lady-in-waiting to Princess Elia. She was beautiful, more beautiful than the rest. Every man wanted to dance with her, but few men had the chance. Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington, Barristan Selmy, too. He was in love with her.”

“He’s the one who first told me of her, after my dream.” Daenerys noticed how Bran’s vision matched what Barristan had told her.

“And she danced with my father. They spent all night talking. When they parted after the tourney they were both in love.”

“In love?”

“It was her undoing. Not long after the tourney and the False Spring, your father, the Mad King, burned my grandfather and killed my uncle. He called for Jon Arryn to bring him my father’s head, but Arryn refused. In his anger, Aerys flew into a rage and raped Ashara, having seen her dance with Ned Stark at Harrenhal and having overheard her telling Princess Elia about him.”

“That...that cannot be true,” Dany sputtered. “Your vision was wrong. I was born during a great Summer storm to Rhaella Targaryen on Dragonstone.”

“My visions never lie. You were born at Starfall, the ancient seat of House Dayne, to Lady Ashara. You never set foot on Dragonstone until your ships arrived there from Essos.”

Dany recalled landing on Dragonstone. She remembered telling Tyrion and Varys that she always imagined it would have felt like a homecoming, but it did not feel like home.

“My father sent word to your mother,” Bran continued. “He warned her to flee King’s Landing before it was sacked. After the war he found my aunt, Lyanna, dying from giving birth to Jon. He promised to care for him as his own. In order to reach her in the Tower of Joy he had to slay the Sword of the Morning, Ashara’s brother, Arthur Dayne. He wielded the greatsword Dawn. My father took Dawn back to Starfall and found that your mother had given birth to you.

“He knew that Robert, having slain Rhaegar on the Trident, would never let you live if he found you and so he helped you and your mother escape by boat to Sunspear. For a Targaryen, the sea was less treacherous than the land and was less likely to betray than a man who knew what a dead Targaryen babe was worth.”

“Why Sunspear?”

“Despite Rhaegar slighting Elia, Dorne and the Martells were still loyal to the Targaryens. You stayed with your mother and grew up in anonymity near the Water Gardens. Fittingly so, as they were made for the first Daenerys who was married to Maron Martell. You lived in a large house with-”

“A red door,” Dany finished and Bran nodded.

“You remember.”

“That’s all. I would run in the grass and play in the water. There was a lemon tree, but that...that was in Braavos.”

“Lemons don’t grow in Braavos. It was very near Sunspear.”

“How did I end up with Viserys?”

“Your mother and the Martells knew the older you became, the harder you would be to hide. Oberyn Martell himself delivered you to Viserys and Willem Darry in Braavos. While he was there, Oberyn and Darry signed a pact betrothing Viserys to Arianne Martell. You remained with Viserys from that time on.”

“And whatever happened to Ashara Dayne? Is my mother dead? Is she alive?”

“She’s alive,” Bran said. “Although you’ve known her by another name. Quaithe, I believe.”

“That’s enough,” Dany replied, lifting her hand to silence him. Even that small gesture seemed to take great effort. She turned to leave, to be anywhere else, to have time to process everything he had just told her.

“Where are you going?”

“I don’t know. I just need to be alone.”

XXXXX

The Targaryens burned their dead. The reasoning why had been lost over the years, summed up as tradition. Now, in a world where the dangers of reanimation by the White Walkers was a reality, cremation seemed practical, logical, and necessary. They had even burned Cersei Lannister’s body when she was found dead of mysterious circumstances by her brother Jaime after Dany’s armies had defeated the Lannister forces and she had taken King’s Landing. The concept of burying the dead the way many Great Houses in Westeros such as the Starks did was foreign to Dany. The first time Jon had shown her the crypts was almost unsettling for reasons that she could not quite explain.

She was not entirely sure how she ended up down there, but she stared up at the cold stone statue of Ned Stark. She remembered someone telling her that it did not look like him, it captured none of his warmth. Dany had not known the difference then, but now after seeing him so clearly in her dreams she concluded that whomever carved his likeness clearly had not known him, or at least, had not known him very well. Her mother had known him well, or at least well enough to trust him with news of her daughter’s very existence.

How did one man hold two of Westeros’s biggest secrets? She wondered as yet another tear slid down her cheek. Somehow, she had managed to keep her composure until she was alone, but once the torrent of tears began, they had been difficult to stop. At some point, in an attempt to stop the sobs from wracking her body, she lowered herself to the stone floor. Now, she lacked the will or want to pull herself back up again.

Queen of Nothing, a harsh voice from her past whispered in Dothraki.

She barely heard the boots echo on the cobbled floor as they walked towards her. Dany did not need to look up, she knew who it would be before her husband even sat down next to her and patiently waited for her to speak to him.

“Bran told you then?” she asked.

“He did,” Jon nodded slowly.

“How can you even look at me?”

“What?”

“Who am I even?”

“You’re my wife. You’re the Queen.”

“Your wife,” Dany snorted. “You didn’t even know who you married. I don’t even know who I am. Regardless of Aerys being my father, I’m a bastard. I have no real claim to the Iron Throne. What kind of a queen is that?”

“You and I are the same,” Jon pointed out. “This may surprise you, but I didn’t fall in love with you for your crown, or even your dragons. There’s no hidden agenda there. I didn’t mean to fall in love with you at all. But I fell in love with a woman, the most passionate women I’d ever met.”

He paused and turned her face towards him.

“One day I spoke to Missandei. Davos was there, too. We asked her why she served you. Do you know what she told me? She said you were the queen they chose. Did you become the Khaleesi because they all bowed and bent the knee to House Targaryen? No. The gods know the Dothraki don’t give a shit about that. Being a Targaryen didn’t earn you respect in Meereen. Aegon took the throne without a claim or a right to it. He united the Seven Kingdoms.”

“I’m not Aegon.”

“No, you’re better. You told me when we met that you endured all you had because of faith in yourself.”

“I had faith in a person who doesn’t exist.”

“No. You’re still Daenerys Targaryen. You still endured everything that happened to you. You are the rightful queen now, even more so because you’ve earned it.”

“What will I tell the people? Who would believe it?”

“Tell them the truth. Once this is all over people won’t care how pure your blood is. Seven hells, some who still only see you as a Targaryen might even be relieved. Your mother was a Dayne. Arthur Dayne was one of the greatest knights Westeros has ever seen.”

“The Mad King’s blood still flows through our veins. People might still resent it.”

“The Northerners will believe Bran when he tells them everything. They might even love you more for being the daughter of the woman Ned Stark once loved. Everyone knew he loved her.”

Dany glanced up at the statue of Ned again. “He helped send me away.”

“To protect you.”

Everything Barristan said made sense now. Everything Varys told her about Ned Stark trying to convince Robert not to have her assassinated...it all made sense now.

“He sent you away to keep you safe,” Jon repeated. “He had no idea what Viserys would do. To him, I’m sure the further away you were from Robert, the better off you were.”

“Part of me knows you’re right.”

“I’m not saying it shouldn’t still hurt.”

“Bran warned me. He said it was dangerous. I knew better. But my dreams…” Dany trailed off. “I needed answers and so I didn’t listen to him.”

She felt sick to her stomach as her emotions churned and roiled inside of her. If I look back I am lost, she thought and nearly laughed in disgust at how true that rang in her mind. Everything she had believed as a child was a lie. Every story Viserys ever told her was a fallacy. The resentment he bore towards her made sense now. It was not because of her that his mother died. She had not even thought to ask Bran about what really happened on Dragonstone the night Rhaella Targaryen died. A bastard sister was only useful to Viserys in as far as she helped get him a crown. When he saw her rise in prominence among the Dothraki, any affection he must have felt for her wore thin. She was but a pawn to him. Dany wondered what he would think of a bastard queen sitting on the Iron Throne with a bastard king at her side.

I took this throne, she thought. With fire and blood and I would take it again.

“Daenerys, let’s go up,” Jon urged.

“Ned Stark risked everything for me,” Dany said, ignoring the request. “The daughter of the man who killed his father and brother.”

“Bran said he loved your mother. Nothing would change that. He didn’t see you as the Mad King’s daughter. He saw you as Ashara’s daughter. He couldn’t keep her safe, so he wanted to keep you safe. Maybe if it wasn’t for me he would have taken you up North, raised you as his own.”

Jon paused for a moment and tried to smile.

“With this hair?” Dany asked, twirling a lock of her silver-gold hair between her fingers and nudging him. “Everyone would have known I was a Targaryen.”

“He just wanted to get you away from Robert.”

“Do you think he knew what he was sending me into? Do you think my mother knew?”

“Absolutely not. He’d never knowingly send anyone he cared about into danger. He couldn’t have known then what Viserys would become.”

“Every story by my brother…” she took a deep breath and sighed. “Every story Viserys told me was a lie. She was never our mother. She was only his mother. Maybe this isn’t even her ring. No wonder he hated me so much when he had to sell Rhaella’s crown.”

“Viserys needed you just as much as you needed him,” Jon repeated.

“I never grew up with a mother,” Dany said. “Why does it feel like I’ve lost something all over again?”

“I think I know a bit about that.”

“Of course you do. I’m sorry, Jon.”

“Don’t be, but I do understand how you feel. The feeling of a lost connection. Sometimes I wish I knew Lyanna was my mother from the time I was young, to know that she was somebody, or that I was somebody. Bran and my father both said that she was like Arya.”

“Did you ever think about asking Bran to look back more than he did?”

“Of course I did, but where would that get me? I can’t change anything that happened.”

“If I look back, I am lost.”

“Who told you that?” Jon asked.

“It’s just something I’ve always felt inside of me. I should have listened.”

“Your mother would be proud of you, Dany. Of everything you’ve accomplished.”

“I hope so, wherever she is now. I hope so. She helped me without even knowing it, or maybe she did.”

“So Bran said. If she’s reached out before, she could reach out again.”

“What would I say to her?”

“You’ll know. When the time comes, you’ll know.”

“Thank you.”

“For what?”

“I thought I wanted to be alone. That I wanted to sort this out by myself.”

“As someone who did just that, I knew I couldn’t let you do the same. Even if I don’t have all of the answers.”

“Help me up?” Dany asked, holding her hand out to Jon.

He took her hand and helped pull her to her feet, pressing a kiss to her forehead as she stood up.

“What am I going to tell everyone? Where do I even begin?”

“You don’t have to tell them anything yet. Send Tyrion a raven when you’re ready. Take some time to yourself to let everything sink in.”

Dany nodded and let Jon lead her out of the crypts and up to their chambers.

XXXXX

Another piece of paper was tossed into the fire and Dany watched as the flames licked and singed the edges before consuming the parchment completely and turning it to ash. It was her third attempt to write a letter to Tyrion and she still could not find the right way to put pen to paper and express what she felt she needed to say. Perhaps Jon was right. Perhaps she needed more time to contemplate everything that had happened. Although she heard no sound, Dany could feel that someone was in the room with her. She did not have to turn around to know who it was. She had felt this way before on the Balerion and then again in Meereen.

“Quaithe,” she said and closed her eyes.

“Daenerys,” replied the familiar voice. The voice from my dream, Dany thought, realizing why some part of her had recognized it.

“Should I call you Ashara now?” she asked, turning around. For the first time, the mysterious woman she met in Qarth wore no mask and Dany gazed upon the face of her mother.

“The three-eyed raven told you everything then?”

“He told me enough,” Dany replied, forgetting her conversation hours ago with Jon. Forgetting to be anything but hurt and angry for the years of lost time. “He told me what I needed to know. What I don’t understand is why you didn’t tell me yourself. You clearly had the opportunity.”

“I wanted to. I tried to. I told you to remember who you are.”

“You could have done more than speak to me in veiled language and riddles.”

“No,” Ashara said simply, moving closer towards her daughter. She looked younger than Dany had expected, not so much older than she had been in the dream she had. It occurred to Dany that Ashara was probably no older than forty, if she was even that. “I couldn’t have. You weren't ready to hear the truth. It was something you needed to seek out for yourself when the time was right.”

“How is this the right time?” Dany asked. “We are at war with the greatest enemy Westeros has ever known and I’m about to have a child. I could have done without the jarring distraction. You planted that dream, didn’t you?”

“No. Your dreams and your visions come to you of your own accord. You said it yourself once. You are no ordinary woman. You dreams come true. It is a gift of our house.”

“Is it? Or is it a curse?”

“I suppose in time you will decide that for -”

“Why did you abandon me?” Dany asked, cutting the woman off, her voice choked with a mix of sadness and anger. She watched as Ashara recoiled from the verbal blow.

“I did it to keep you safe. Because it was the only way to ensure I could always be with you. One way or another if we stayed together in Dorne Robert would have found us.”

“Why did you go to Dorne to begin with?”

“Because the North was not an option. Ned Stark would have done everything he could to protect us, but he...he had his own secrets to keep and you, with your unmistakable hair, wouldn’t have been able to be kept hidden here. Robert was so hellbent on ridding the world of all Targaryens that he would not have stopped to consider that the Daynes shares many of the same traits as the Targaryens. It would have been pointless to lie. So Ned helped get to me to Dorne. It was the last time I ever saw him alive before he returned to the North. The Martells hated Robert and the Lannisters even more than they hated Rhaegar. Oberyn had long been a friend. He was still reeling from the loss of Elia. I don’t think he ever truly recovered. I asked if he would help keep you safe. I’ll never forget what he told me. There were tears in his eyes when he said, We don’t hurt little girls in Dorne.”

“Why not stay hidden in Dorne? Why not take me to Viserys yourself?”

“If you were to be the Targaryen Princess and Queen you were meant to be, I couldn’t be part of it. You couldn’t have memories of me. That’s why Oberyn took you to Viserys when he did.”

“Do you have any idea what I went through with Viserys and with Drogo?”

“I didn’t know what would happen when I let you go, but I know it now.”

“I never asked to be a queen. Growing up I would have been quite content with a mother, a family who loved me.”

“The gods have fashioned you for greatness, Daenerys. Your happiness was not in your past, but in your future.”

“If I look back I am lost…”

“Yes. Someday, you too will know what it is like to make a difficult decision to leave a child.”

“Never,” Dany protested. “I would never leave my child.”

“You would if it meant ensuring their safety.”

“I will be able to keep my child safe.”

“Yes,” Ashara said. “I think you will.”

“Why didn’t you help me? All those years we lived in squalor, everything that happened in Essos, why didn’t you help?”

“I tried, as much as I could. But I know what you needed to become. I trusted in the prophecies and I was right.”

“You’ll go again?” Dany’s voice was quiet, filled with the hope that she could make the visitor stay, but something deep within her already knew the answer to the question she asked.

“I’m afraid I must, but before I go, there is one last piece of wisdom to impart. Beware, Daenerys. Beware the sword of ice that will cloud your mind and pierce your heart.”

“What does that mean?”

“Dany?” Jon asked from the doorway. She had been so caught up that she had not even heard him come through the door. “Who were you talking to?”

Turning back to where Ashara stood, she found the space to be empty. It was as if no one had been there, just as it had been when she appeared to Dany at sea and under the persimmon tree in Meereen.

“A shadow. A memory,” Dany replied. She shook her head in disbelief as she faced Jon once more. “My mother.”

#Jonerys fic #ours is the song #Jon x Dany #iceandfiresource #Jonerys #It's finally done!

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gameofthronesrenlyxlorasforever · 7 years

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Please don't take this the wrong way, I am genuinely curious. When you say that George has set up JonxDany from the beginning, why do you think that? His original outline had Jon falling in love with Arya, and the series was called A Song of Ice and Fire from that time. Don't you think that the two heroes coming together and marrying is a bit corny for Martin? He probably wants us to expect this to happen and will be lolling at us all.

Hi anon : ) Don’t worry, I’m not taking the ask the wrong way. Happy to discuss.So, how did GRRM set them up as a romance that early?

Well, for starters, he wrote their stories to be very similar. Yes, many other characters take on leadership positions as well, but none on such a scale as Dany and Jon. I’m not talking about the kings because they aren’t POV characters. It’s not their story. If the story belongs to anyone, it’s Jon and Dany. Their arcs are quite traditionally that of the hero, though more grey and not so clear cut. Both start lonely but living with family. Both have a status that’s unsafe (Dany as the usurped king’s heir and Jon as a bastard). Both are noble born, but not in the right way. No one else has this problem. The other players left are either lowborn (Davos) or properly high born (Sansa, Bran, Arya, Arianne, Asha and Theon).

Both try to make the best of their circumstances after being shocked by the people they are sent to. Jon and Dany are miserable at first, but learn the ropes of their respective and similarly forced/confining situations. The Dothraki and the people at the wall are mostly rapists and brutish, yet both heroes do their best to adapt after they overcome their distress. They even make friends and start to see a way to adapt and survive.

Then everything goes wrong with the help of the supernatural. Dany meets the Magi and Jon sees an ice zombie for the first time. Both impact their stories in a way that propels them to the next section of their plot, which is wildly different from where they were in Book 1. Qarth is a “nicer” but perhaps more deadly place than the horde was for a Khaleesi, and Beyond the Wall, the windings have a certain appeal, but they are also very eager to kill Jon the moment he proves himself false.

But, most importantly, they want someone exactly like each other. Someone unpredictable and yet compassionate. Someone brave and bold. Yes, that could have been Arya for Jon, but even from the original outline, they didn’t seem like endgame. I got the sense Arya would have died in that one, to give manpain (ugh, yuck) to Jon and Tyrion. As for Dany, all the other men she’s been romantically linked have been SO wrong for her. And she knew it. There’s that lovely moment when Dany thinks about how lonely she is when her lover is right there, lying next to her. Jon has that exact same moment with Ygritte. They’re not alone, but they’re misunderstood. With the Starklings, you get the sense they would be happy, once they’re together again. Jon would be happier too, but he will have the Targ side of himself his beloved cousins won’t/cannot understand. Dany will.

They’re also the Song, so there’s that. Jon isn’t Targaryen enough to be the Song on his own. He will identify as Lyanna’s son way more than as Rhaegar’s. He is a Stark. Dany is only Fire without him as Ice.

Wow, that was long! 🤓Anyway, I will probably write a more organized, actual essay on this at some point, with actual quotes as evidence.

As for corny, well, I think he wants to do Meant to Be right. In a way that the leads are each other's happily ever after (until they die, if they do end up dying to save the world), but it makes sense because we know them and we the readers know they'll understand each other. Both are leaders in the same way. Dany saves slaves and Jon saves wildlings. Both are opposed as a result. At the end of ADWD, Jon is dead and Dany is close to dying. Their hearts are lonely in the same way. In a way unique to the two of them. The other characters are lonely too, but it's a different type of lonely. It's going to be epic when Ice and Fire will finally unite. Can't wait!

#asoiaf #meta #asoiaf meta #daenerys targaryen #jon snow #a song of ice and fire

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weirwoodking · 4 years

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‘#like why are so many people set on arianne dying’ let’s be real it’s partially because of misogyny and racism and thinking every slightly tragic storyline needs everyone to die.

Yeah. And I really, really hate the “well Dorne’s story has been so tragic so far so it has to end in tragedy” attitude like wtf is that logic.

I also reject the theory that TWOW and ADOS are going to be this huge bloodbath where over half the characters die. There’s a clip from this video (that analyzes how GRRM could fit TWOW into the manuscript confines it has to fit in) that I like:

The idea that ASOIAF is this massive grimdark murder pit where everyone dies all the time and GRRM is swinging a chainsaw around at all the characters is just... wrong. And GRRM does joke about the deaths himself, and we the fans joke about it, but when you look at it in a non-joking way, that’s not necessarily how it is. If you recall, GRRM wrote all of ASOS, and then went back afterwards to write the Red Wedding last, because it was the hardest thing for him to write. He said that killing Robb and Cat was like murdering two of his own children.

Yes, there are going to be deaths in TWOW, but I don’t think that the “half of the characters die to make room for the others” thing is going to happen. And Arianne is definitely not someone I’d put at the top of the list of who’s most likely to die.

#also quentyn already fulfills the ‘young dornish noble dying’ plot point #it doesn’t have to be repeated with arianne #ask #anon #asoiaf #arianne martell

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aegonbeingfakeisracist · 4 years

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I never got the idea that the Martell line would die out by the end of the story because of Trystane. How do ppl think he is going to die? Most ppl that think the Martells are dying see it as a warning against vengeance, but Trystane is kind and welcoming to Myrcella, playing Cyvasse with her and being ok being beaten. If anything, I could see him being a key player in a peaceful new world. What do you think will happen to Trystane? The 2 Martells I most see surviving are him and Sarella.

That’s...complicated, because I’ve seen a lot of contradictory arguments. There are definitely people that agree with you and believe that Trystane and Sarella have the best chance at surviving. I saw one person argue that Trystane will become the Prince of Dorne and, because he’s so young, be advised by Sarella. But there are also quite a few people that think the vengeance thing isn’t about the characters themselves being obsessed with vengeance, but them suffering because of Doran’s desire for it. I kind of hate both those options.

The problem that I see with Trystane and Sarella being the ones to survive is tied to how Trystane's only role in the story so far is hanging out with Myrcella and losing board games. He has no agency of his own. He hasn’t gotten a single line. We don’t even get insight into what his relationship with his sister is. All of what you point out about him is true and indicative of someone that’s a good, sweet kid...but not a full person. He doesn’t have goals. He doesn’t have interests. He doesn’t have a personality. Literally all he does is sit around with Myrcella. We don’t get any insight into his relationship with his sister, his brother, his mother, his father, his cousins. He had to have friends before she came to Dorne but the only person we ever see him around is her. He’s thirteen when we meet him, why isn’t he a squire, like Quentyn was? The beginning and end of his character is Myrcella. That’s not fair. If the idea that Arianne dies and he becomes the next Prince of Dorne is true, then it’s deeply questionable to have the only person of colour in a position of power by the end of the story be someone that has no goals of his own and no personality development at all. Not to mention that it would just be unsatisfying - after so much build up about how Arianne is a woman with power who will inherit Dorne, she’ll be replaced with a younger brother, just as she feared, but one we don’t even know?

The issue with Sarella is similar. She has more personality than Trystane, and certainly more plot relevance, but her story seems to be connected to Sam’s more so than to her family and the Dornish plot elements. She’s interacting with Sam rather than her sisters or Arianne. She’s far away from all the Dornish characters. We don’t get any insight into her feelings on Oberyn, Doran, her sisters older and younger. She, like so many of the Dornish characters, is used as a tool - introduced when she becomes plot relevant. Many characters are introduced early and allowed to develop so that their storylines can converge with other characters’ later. The Dornish characters are introduced to aid other people’s plots. In this case, that seems to be Sam. So, what, the only Martells that get to live are the ones whose stories involve being the supporting cast for white characters? Who either don’t have goals of their own or whose goals help the white characters rather than threatening them and their power? Whose perspectives we don’t get to see? I’d find it so disappointing.

Peace is good. Of course it is. But even if we set aside the fact that Dornish grievances are not petty violence for violence’s sake, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth for the Martell that winds up with power being the one that doesn’t have any goals of his own, that isn’t afforded an opinion on everything else that’s happened in the past twenty years - let alone a negative opinion on other characters. Edric Dayne gets to be interested in the aunt that killed herself before he was born and talk to Arya about her. Doran’s three children are not permitted to have an thoughts or feelings about their aunt and cousins who were brutally murdered.

To me, to have Trystane become the Prince of Dorne would be pretty much the equivalent of Bran, Sansa, and Arya all being killed and Rickon a) becoming Lord of Winterfell and b) being perfectly happy to hang out with the people that killed them. It could work...but only if it also applies to other houses as well. For it to just be the Martells? Not cool.

There’s a theme of generational change and breaking harmful cycles in the story, but for Trys, it wouldn’t even be a change, because he’s never given a choice. He’s never afforded his own perspective on the issues. Yeah, it’s lovely that he’s kind to Myrcella and him being a voice for peace despite all of his losses could potentially be interesting, but it’s not a choice that he’s making. There’s never an instant where he could do one of two things and we watch him make the decision. He’s not even permitted ambivalence towards Myrcella. Why did he have to “be enchanted with her”? Why couldn’t she have grown on him slowly? Why couldn’t he have not liked her but made an effort to be kind and welcoming anyway because he’s a good person who cares about other people because they’re people, regardless of whether or not he likes them? With what we get, she’s being unintentionally presented as more important than him - not in terms of in universe social rank, but in terms of her emotions, her feelings, her comfort. There is so much emphasis on Myrcella and Tommen being innocent children and the hopes that Myrcella is happy with Trystane. Where is that concern for his happiness?

We also have to take into account how Arianne isn’t actually a war hawk. She’s not out for a bloody war of revenge. She doesn’t hold the sins of the parents against the child any more than Trystane does. She’s absolutely devastated when Myrcella is hurt. So while Trystane undoubtedly could play a role in building a more peaceful future, I feel like him replacing Arianne wouldn’t be symbolic of a transition to a new, more peaceful world, it would be replacing a grown woman that knows her own mind, has her own firm sense of right and wrong, and a grasp on politics and people that comes from age and experience with her little brother that doesn’t have experience, a network of friends, and the confidence of adulthood.

Anyway, none of that was your question, so please forgive my rant. What I think will happen to Trystane...well, I can see it going many ways. I don’t see how he’d die, so I think he’ll make it out okay, but I really hope he doesn’t end up taking Arianne’s place. It’s still possible, of course - there could be an inversion of Doran’s comment about being the oldest but last of his siblings, where Trystane is the youngest and last. I’d hate it, but it’s possible. Maybe he does die to solidify the Doran-Arianne parallels. I don’t know what I think will happen, but what I hope is that he and Arianne both live so they can build a newly independent Dorne together.

#A Song of Ice and Fire #House Martell #Trystane Martell #Sarella Sand #books-laughter-love #replies

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