#like: yeah what I learned in undergrad really paid off. it just. turns out to not have been the stuff I was expecting

[dontcallmecarrie]

me, about five years ago: hmm, maybe I should spend more time cramming and less time researching stuff to make my fanfic sound plausible. No way is some obscure legal jargon and random crap about jurisdiction ever going to be more useful than taking care of all these prereqs!

me now, at my second job that has me rubbing elbows with lawyers and running around court and city hall: *surprised pikachu face*

.

Okay, but there’s a strange sort of irony in this situation that only you guys can understand, especially those of you who’ve read TWiFFON. Like a brick joke, but in real life.

Of course, it comes at the cost of writing time, but between writer’s block and other stuff, not much was going on, anyway. Some ideas for original work, and I’m kinda torn about posting it because it’s a bit different from my fic.

[pickalilywrites]

a mikahisu au inspired by one of my favorite shows~ please enjoy ^^

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Do You Still Dream of Me?

MikaHisu. Hotel Del Luna AU.

Like the Moon Loves the Ocean Series: Chapter 1

13252 words.

Read on Ao3!

Armin Arlert hunches over a stack of documents, nibbling on the end of his fountain pen. The pen costs more than his entire outfit — an oversized suit that Armin had fished out of a bin at his local thrift store when he was trying to find a respectable ensemble to wear for the interview that snagged him his current job. Even now, Armin isn’t sure how he managed to get a job as a finance manager at one of the most expensive hotels he’s ever seen in his life. Actually, this might be one of the most extravagant places Armin has ever stepped foot in. He still feels out of place when he arrives in the morning, his polyester suit looking even cheaper against the marble floors and gilded staircase, but nobody ever seems to pay him any mind when he sneaks through the door and scurries away to his office at the far end of the lobby.

His brow furrows as he looks at a particularly confusing set of numbers, numbers that don’t add up the way that they should. Or, well, they’re not adding up in a way that will be satisfying to the hotel owner when he reports the new estimated budget for next month. They’ll have to cut spending once again. At the very least, they need to stop splurging on unnecessary decorations for the hotel and personal luxury expenditures. It’s the same report he’s made every month since he’s been here, but always surprises the hotel manager nonetheless. And she’s never happy to hear it. Armin highly suspects that it’s a major reason why he’s her least favorite hotel staff member even though he’s really just the bearer of bad news.

Ah, how do I break this to her? Armin wonders, leaning back in his chair and rubbing his face tiredly. He lets his arms fall to his sides and sits in his chair, his head tipped back and his eyes closed as he contemplates his next move. On one hand, the woman can’t possibly fire him because her assets would be entirely in the negatives if he weren’t here to keep her in check. On the other hand, the glare she shoots him as he delivers the bad news is enough for him to wish an abyss would appear and swallow him up on the spot. He briefly wonders if he can lie his way out of it - maybe fudge the numbers so that the woman can live as extravagantly as she desires - but that just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. There really isn’t any way out of it.

Armin sighs once more before opening his eyes ... only to see a set of cold, dead eyes staring back at him.

He’s not sure what kind of noise comes out of his throat as he jumps out of his chair, knocking over the stack of papers he’s been working on and tripping over his chair. He’s still shrieking as the thing approaches him, its hand outstretched as it walks toward him even as he crawls backward up against the wall. Armin can hardly look at it - this ghost of a person, a bloody wound across its neck where it had been decapitated before its untimely death - and he shrinks against the wall as it comes closer and closer.

The door opens just then and the sound of footsteps alerts the ghost, making it turn its head to see who has just entered.

“Excuse me, miss,” a voice says. A woman appears, completely calm even though Armin still sits huddled in the corner screaming. She ignores him, her focus entirely on the ghost, to which she offers a warm smile. The woman gestures towards the opened door. “I’m afraid you’ve stumbled into the office of our financial advisor. If you can step into the lobby, our receptionist can assist you in checking into a room at the front desk.”

The ghost looks slowly from the woman and then to Armin. After a long pause, the ghost woman slowly bows to Armin — her form of an apology, Armin supposes — before departing, the door swinging shut behind her.

The woman stares at the closed door for a moment before shifting her attention to Armin. Gone is her professional smile; it’s replaced with an amused expression, laughter stifled behind lips closed in a thin line. She offers a slender hand to Armin to help him up. “I thought you’d be used to our clients by now. Hasn’t it been almost a year since you started working here?”

“Er, yeah,” Armin says sheepishly, the tips of his ears turning pink in embarrassment. He drags his feet to his desk, collecting his papers and dropping them into a messy stack on his desk before collapsing in his chair. Face in hand, he says, “I probably should, but it’s still weird. I can probably see a million ghosts for the next few years, but they’ll always make me jump in my seat. Maybe if they didn’t stop phasing through the walls of my office and sneaking up on me …”

The woman only laughs, and Armin feels a little more relaxed. Mikasa Ackerman, the assistant manager of the hotel, is one of the only hotel staff members Armin feels comfortable around. While the other staff members either roll their eyes or laugh when Armin encounters their ghostly clientele, Mikasa has always been patient with him.

“The next few years,” Mikasa muses, a lopsided smile on her face. She takes a seat in a chair across from him. She leans her elbow on the armrest, her cheek pressed up against her hand. Eyebrow raised, the manager asks, “You really think you’ll be working here for a few more years? Do we not pay you well enough?”

“You’re really underestimating the cost of student loans these days,” Armin sighs, slumping lower in his chair. He reaches for the mug on his desk, bringing it to his lips, and takes a long sip of coffee. It’s cold as it hits his tongue and slides down his throat, and he shudders when it hits his stomach. On second thought, caffeine probably isn’t the best decision considering the fact that he was almost scared shitless only a minute ago. He returns the mug to its coaster, an unsatisfied frown on his face.

“Poor, poor you,” Mikasa coos, eyes crinkling as her smile widens. She sits back, legs crossed and hands placed on her knees. She looks so comfortable here, so much like she belongs in her wool suit, the golden badge that lists her name and title pinned against her breast. If she weren’t so nice, maybe Armin would feel inferior. “It’s kind of your fault for going for a Ph.D. What do you need a doctorate in finance for anyway?”

“I don’t really know what I was thinking, to be honest. I thought maybe I could teach at a university somewhere down the line. Hoped the salary I earned down the line would make the investment worth it, but obviously I didn’t learn anything in my undergrad.” Armin waves his hand around the room. “Anyway, here I am now working at a ghost hotel so that I can pay off my student loans.” It’s probably the biggest mistake of his life next to taking a job at this hotel. Obtaining a Ph.D didn’t give him the salary bump he hoped it would and this was the only place that paid him nearly enough for his years at school.

“Could be worse,” Mikasa says with a shrug. “At least you don’t age while you’re here.”

“Ah, right,” Armin says. That was mentioned as an added perk when he had started to work here, but he hadn’t really believed it at first. Sure, some of his coworkers claim to have been working at this hotel for decades, although most of them look well under the age they say they are. Armin’s not even sure how that’s possible considering the demanding boss they work under. He supposes he’ll find out if it’s true in a few years, assuming he’s still paying off his student loans by then. Armin sits up a bit, eyebrow raised. “How long have you been working here again?”

Mikasa grins. “A little over twenty years.”

The answer isn’t anything new, but it’s always a punch in the gut whenever Armin hears it because it never makes sense to him. Mikasa can’t be older than twenty-seven — and that was pushing it. If she really were working for twenty years, she would have been a child when she had first been employed. Armin thinks she must be joking with him just like the other employees are, but Armin finds that strange too. Mikasa is always friendly with him, but she’s not the type to tell strange jokes.

“Right,” Armin says. He looks at Mikasa cautiously, but her expression tells him nothing.

“Don’t worry. It’s not so bad after a while,” Mikasa says. She leans back, staring back at Armin. Even though she doesn’t look at him threateningly, Armin still shrinks under her gaze.

“How’s your work going, by the way? Any good news for the boss?” Mikasa reaches over, a finger tapping on Armin’s stack of papers.

Armin groans, burying his head in his hands, although it’s more because of the mention of their boss rather than the work itself.

Historia Reiss is the hotelier of the Blutmond, the phantom hotel which Armin finds himself unfortunately employed. Her appearance is anything but intimidating. She wasn’t even close to being five feet tall. With hair of spun gold and aquamarine eyes, the petite woman could be mistaken for a life-sized doll if it weren’t for the terrible scowl on her face. In all of Armin’s time at the Blutmond, he doesn’t think he’s seen her smile once. She glowered the entire time during his interview, never opening her mouth except to ask whether or not he’d be able to balance her account in time for her to buy the latest model Porsche. The woman didn’t even congratulate him when she and Mikasa came to visit him with the news of his new job, only telling him that she expected him to come to work on time and not to make any mistakes with her finances or she’d have his head. He completely believed her and has always double-checked his work at least three times before finalizing his spreadsheets. His other coworkers have insisted that the woman isn’t nearly as frightening as Armin believes her to be, but the way they cower and scurry to put everything in place whenever she steps into the room doesn’t fool him. He’s also heard a curious rumor about her. His coworkers always mention that she’s been here the longest — over a thousand years — although he’s not sure if it’s just a way of them calling her an old hag because the woman doesn’t look a day over twenty-five.

“It’s really not going so great,” Armin says with a pained expression. He flips through some of his papers, pulling out a small stack that documents Historia’s personal expenses. Most of the page is highlighted in bright red. Armin thought the severe color would help convince their boss about his budgeting suggestions at the end of the week. Handing the papers to Mikasa, Armin says, “It’s only been half the month, but Miss Reiss is spending way too much on her credit card already. At this rate, she won’t have enough to buy that caviar that she likes so much.”

“It’s fine. Historia doesn’t actually like caviar that much. She just likes how rich she feels when she eats it,” the manager says absentmindedly. Mikasa flips through the papers, an eyebrow raised, but she doesn’t seem surprised as she reviews Armin’s findings. Once through with them, she straightens them out on the desk. “Maybe I can convince her to get sashimi next time.”

“I’m serious. She really needs to cut down on her spending habits.” He hates how whiny he sounds, but it’s difficult for him not to whine when he’s imagining how infuriated his employer will be when he timidly suggests that she not buy anymore jewelry for the rest of the month. “I mean, does she really need to have twelve different sports cars lining her garage? Where is she even going?”

Mikasa sits with her fingers steepled, a pout on her lips as she looks down at the papers again. She reaches over to thumb through the papers once more before sitting back again. “I guess I can talk to her about it.”

Armin sits up, his mouth shaped in a perfect “O.” “Would you really?” His mind is already going a million miles a minute, thinking about everything he has to review with Mikasa before she presents the information to their boss. Maybe he can show her the presentation slides he prepared in advance. He thought having his notes on an elegant Powerpoint would be much better than him stuttering through his notes while Historia glared at him. A little more energized now, Armin is already clicking through his computer, pulling up the presentation slides for Mikasa to look at. “If you’re really serious, I have some materials that can help you-”

“I’m not,” Mikasa says, an amused smile on her face. She laughs when Armin visibly deflates. “Ah, I feel a bit bad seeing you so disappointed, though. Are you really that scared of her?”

Armin thinks about the little woman, the blue flames that ignite in her eyes whenever he so much as hints at the fact that her shopping sprees should have a cap on them. He shudders. “I’m terrified.”

The woman nods sympathetically. “Alright, I’ll try to talk to her. No promises, though. You know how she feels about these things.”

“Oh, thank you, thank you,” Armin breathes, collapsing against the back of his chair with relief. He knows that most of Historia’s ire will be directed towards him, but he hopes that having Mikasa deliver the news will somehow soften the blow.

“Mhm. You’re going to get used to being in her line of fire though. It’s unfortunate, but it comes with the job of being her finance manager. She’ll always be bad with money no matter how much you tell her not to spend,” Mikasa tells him with a wry smile. Her phone buzzes in her pocket, the sound making Armin jump in his seat. She looks at him, snickering, and pulls her phone out. Mikasa glances at her phone before turning it so that Armin could see the name flashing across the screen - Historia. “Unless you’d like to practice right now.”

Armin, eyes wide and throat closing shut at just the sight of the hotelier’s name, shakes his head.

“Alright, alright,” Mikasa laughs. She stands up, straightening out her blazer. “I’ll stop teasing you and leave you to your work then. And don’t worry about Historia; I’ll take care of her for you.” The manager returns to her phone, swiping across the screen and taking the call.

“Thanks, Mikasa,” Armin says. He didn’t mean for his voice to come out as a squeak, but he finds that he can’t speak knowing that his employer might hear his voice on the other end.

Mikasa simply waves at him, walking towards the door. “Yeah, I’m free, but I’m surprised you’re not calling Levi for something like this,” she’s saying. She pulls open the door, her voice fading as she’s walking out. “No, the work is fine. It’s perfect, actually. I was hoping we could talk about your finances. I just talked to Armin …”

Armin winces at the mention of his name and, as much as he knows he shouldn’t because it’ll only make him feel worse, strains to listen in on the conversation but the wooden door proves too thick of a barrier to let him eavesdrop. Just as well, he thinks as he rests his forehead against the cool surface of his desk. He’ll just get back to work estimating next month’s budget. And, he thinks as he squeezes his eyes shut, praying that he won’t have any more unexpected paranormal visitors today.

≿————-　❈　————-≾

Historia sits in the passenger seat of a slick blue Bentley, one of the many luxury cars that line her parking garage. Mikasa has tried to convince the hotelier that one car should be enough, has even tried selling them behind her back only for Historia to buy twice as many cars to replace them. Looking at Historia now, Mikasa understands why the blonde gravitates so naturally to high-end sports cars. In the passenger seat with her golden hair falling behind her back in waves, Historia looks like she could be a model for the luxury brand. Her pastel dress, one that Mikasa is fairly certain has been flaunted on a runway at some point in the past year, is probably worth just as much as the Bentley if not more. Mikasa doesn’t even want to think about how much jewelry that adorns the woman’s neck is worth, although she knows she should probably ask.

“What took you so long?” Historia asks, her scowl breaking the illusion of her pixie-like appearance. She sits up, holding her matching clutch purse in her lap. Her bottom lip sticks out, making her plush pink lips look even more like a doll’s. She looks cute, Mikasa could even say, but she knows the words would only cause Historia to narrow her blue eyes in an irritated glare.

Mikasa slips into the driver’s seat, fishing the car keys from the inside of her breast pocket. “My apologies. I was speaking with Armin before I came here,” she tells Historia. She turns the ignition, the engine purring as the car starts up. “He had some interesting things to say about your finances.”

At the mention of the man’s name, Historia hisses, tossing her hair over her shoulder. It seems to be a common reaction whenever the finance manager is mentioned in the hotelier’s presence. “I don’t want to hear anything he has to say,” Historia sniffs, as if not speaking about it will somehow help her avoid her financial issues. She reaches for the remote, clicking the garage door open so that they can make their exit. “He never has anything good to say to me. All he ever does is bring me bad news. I don’t even know why we hired him.”

“Because you’re terrible at budgeting,” Mikasa answers easily, ignoring the glare that she receives. After working at the hotel for decades, she’s quite used to being at the receiving end of Historia’s scathing looks. She doesn’t take her eyes off the road as she drives, maneuvering out of the parking spot and onto the driveway easily. “He mentioned that you might not even have enough money for an ounce of caviar at the end of the month.”

Historia whips her head so quickly that her neck might have snapped if she were a normal person. Mikasa doesn’t have to look at the woman’s expression to see that she’s horrified at the thought of not eating the overpriced salt-cured fish eggs. “Should I just fire him?” Historia murmurs, sitting with her back against her seat. She shakes her head, her brows furrowed as she considers letting go of her financial manager. “Or maybe we can cut his pay. I’ll have more money if I cut his pay, right?”

“If you cut his pay, he’ll be working here for longer to pay off his student loans,” Mikasa reminds her employer. “You could try hiring someone else, but he was the best in his class. Harvard.”

Historia’s bottom lip wobbles and, for a moment, it looks like she might even cry. Instead, she lets out a frustrated shriek like a spoiled child. “Ah, that kid! I hate him, you know. Out of everyone here, he’s probably my least favorite.”

“I know,” Mikasa says with a sympathetic nod, trying her best to keep her face stoic even though all she wants to do now is burst into laughter at the childish outburst.

These words aren’t new to Mikasa. In fact, she’s heard different variations of the same words over the years that she’s been here. Sometimes it’s Levi, the current general manager of the hotel. Other times it will be Pixis, the elderly but sweet bartender, or Colt, the receptionist at the front desk who looks barely out of his teens. Quite a number of times it has been Connie, the room manager, for swiping too many snacks from the kitchen in between mealtimes. Mikasa’s even been the least favorite every once in a while, although Armin has been given the title these past few months because he’s come in the way of Historia and the thing she loves the most - a luxurious lifestyle.

The funny thing is that Historia has not always been rich. It’s something that the woman likes to remind everyone, Mikasa included, every now and again. Mikasa doesn’t doubt that, but she does find it amusing that Historia turned her back on her past lifestyle so much so that she doesn’t have an ounce of frugality in her body.

“Who’s the client today?” Mikasa asks just as they’re about to hit the main road.

“Some man named Reiner Braun,” Historia says with a click of her tongue. She flips idly through her phone before inserting coordinates in the device. “His grand-niece reached out to us, but she couldn't tell me how rich he was. Don’t you think that’s ridiculous? You’d think someone so close to him would have a sense of how much money he has.” Historia frowns as she inspects her pearly pink nails.

“Children these days,” Mikasa tsks wryly, but Historia doesn’t seem to pick up on her sarcasm.

“They’re terrible. Terrible, terrible. Stupid and spoiled, all of them.” Historia clicks her tongue disapprovingly. The irony of calling someone else “spoiled” while she’s wearing a diamond choker around her neck hasn’t yet reached Historia.

“And I suppose you know what being spoiled looks like?”

It takes a moment for Historia to realize what Mikasa is saying. She sits up, clearly insulted. “I worked for this!” Historia says indignantly, smoothing out her skirt to prevent wrinkles. “I’ll have you know that I worked for every single cent that pays for my lifestyle. I earned all of this.”

“Of course,” Mikasa says with a nod. Beside her, Historia begins to settle down in her seat. “I’m sure the exorbitant prices you charge your clients also helps.”

Historia gives Mikasa a scathing side glare, one that would have made Mikasa flinch in her early days but now it’s like watching a kitten get angry after hiding its toy. She tosses her head, her golden tresses flying back in the wind. “I should have just brought Levi with me,” she mutters under her breath.

Mikasa remains unbothered. “You probably should have,” she replies in a sing-song voice.

≿————-　❈　————-≾

“You know,” Mikasa says as they stand on the doorstep of a sprawling mansion fit for a lord, “you would think his grand-niece would have mentioned that he was loaded.” She reaches over to ring the door, frowning when she’s unable to hear its chime through the thick mahogany door.

“This?” Historia asks, gesturing around the estate. She shrugs, unimpressed. “This is nothing.”

Earlier, they had been stopped at the gate and asked for their identification. Mikasa had thought they would have been stopped there after Historia had gotten into a shouting match with the guard over the intercom until someone else popped on the screen — a young woman with thick dark hair tied half-up in a messy bun — and said they were cleared to come through, pressing open the button for the visitors despite the guard’s protests. As Mikasa drives up the road to the house, Historia hardly looks up at the sprawling green lawn, the freshly trimmed topiaries, or the sparkling fountain. The petite woman doesn’t even blink when Mikasa parks at the front of the house, throwing open the door and stepping out of the car without glancing back even as a valet hurries forward and asks Mikasa for the keys. Although not a fan of letting other people drive around in Historia’s cars, Mikasa grudgingly left the keys in the valet’s hand, chasing after the blonde woman because Mikasa knew Historia never likes to wait for anyone.

“I suppose since he’s living so shabbily we shouldn’t take any commission from him,” Mikasa says dryly. She doesn’t flinch when Historia smacks her sharply on the arm. “Or at the very least offer him a discount. I’m not sure he can afford our services otherwise.”

“Don’t joke like that,” Historia snaps. She reaches up to tuck a lock of her hair behind her ear. “Money is money, so we’ll take what we can get.”

The door opens just then, the same young girl who was on the intercom with a bright smile waiting behind it breathlessly. She looks to be just thirteen or fourteen. Her hair is falling out from its little bun and her clothes — a ratty t-shirt and some cutoff denim shorts — look out of place in the mansion. Historia is no doubt looking at the girl’s outfit in disapproval, but the girl doesn’t seem to notice. Instead, she sticks out a hand towards the pair. “Hi, I’m Gabi! I spoke to you on the phone,” the girl says, oblivious to the maids and servants panting behind her that are trying to pull her back. “You’re Mikasa and Historia, right? From the Blutmond?”

“Miss Braun,” a butler hisses, grabbing at Gabi’s arm. “The guests haven’t been properly screened. You can’t just allow anyone to enter the Braun estate.”

“Relax. Uncle Braun said I could invite my friends over whenever I want,” Gabi snaps. She shakes the man off, scowling at him before turning back to Mikasa and Historia. “And these two are my friends, right?” She looks at them expectantly, silently begging them to play along.

Historia and Mikasa exchange a look, not confirming or denying anything. After a moment, Historia sighs, her arms folded across her chest. “For the duration of this visit, yes, we are Miss Gabi Braun’s … friends.” She looks as if the word leaves a sour taste in her mouth, but Gabi looks smug, happy that she’s managed to dupe the mansion’s staff members even though the majority of them look unconvinced. Of course, none of this bothers Historia, who just charges forward, looking around and not hiding the fact that she’s inspecting every inch of this place.

“Oh, um, let me show you around a bit,” Gabi says, shutting the door behind Mikasa and hurrying after Historia. “It’s easy to get lost here because it’s so big.”

“It’s not that big,” Historia snorts.

“Excuse me,” Mikasa mumbles as she pushes past the staff. It seems that they’ve either given up or just don’t want to bother with the Braun girl anymore because most of them just sigh before returning to their assigned tasks.

Although Gabi is supposed to be giving the tour, Historia is the one that leads the way while Gabi and Mikasa follow behind. Historia hardly says anything as she closely inspects the many statues and paintings that decorate the corners and walls of the various rooms they visit, but Gabi fills the silence with needless chatter of the art pieces. Every now and again Mikasa expresses some admiration for all the historical and artistic knowledge Gabi displays and the praise has the girl puff her chest out in pride, but Historia will sigh under her breath or roll her eyes at times. It really may be that nothing in this mansion really interests her because she never lingers on a painting for longer than a second or two before moving onto the next art piece.

“So, Gabi,” Mikasa says after a moment, making sure that the group was out of earshot of any eavesdropping maids or busboys that might have followed them. She makes sure to keep close to Gabi, her voice low as she speaks. “You called about your great uncle, is that correct? Can you tell us a little bit more about him before we meet him?”

Gabi bites on her lip and fiddles on a loose thread on her faded shirt. She nods before looking over at Historia, who’s halfway across the room frowning at a grand piano. “Er, yeah,” the girl mumbles. “I can … I can tell you about him.”

“You can talk from there,” Historia says without looking up. She presses a finger to an ivory key and a note rings out, echoing across the room. It seems that the note is unsatisfactory though because her frown deepens after hearing it. “I have impeccable hearing.”

Gabi looks unsure, but Mikasa puts a reassuring hand on the girl’s shoulder and smiles. “Go ahead, Gabi.”

“Okay,” Gabi says. She takes a deep breath, but she’s already shaking. Tears already forming in her eyes, she looks up, swallowing hard. “Uncle Reiner … he’s been strange for a while now. Maybe a few months. My parents say it’s just dementia because he’s so old but … I don’t think that’s it.” Tears roll down her cheeks and she’s looking down now, stubbornly wiping them away with the back of her hand.

“Take your time,” Mikasa says gently, rubbing soothing circles on the young girl’s back.

Historia is a little less sympathetic. She strides over, taking a seat on a nearby chaise lounge and sitting back like it’s an appropriate time to relax. “And what makes you think we can help? I don’t typically enjoy doing business with doddering old men.”

“Ignore her,” Mikasa tells Gabi, shooting a look at Historia. Historia simply sticks her tongue out in reply.

“N-no,” Gabi says with a shake of her head, sniffling. “I h-heard you could h-help people. That you h-have a special business. My uncle … I don’t think the th-things he’s seeing are hallucinations. I th-think what he’s seeing … they’re ghosts.”

Historia looks a little more intrigued now, sitting up on the chaise with her legs crossed instead of lounging back. “What makes you think that they’re ghosts?”

Gabi hesitates. “Well … he mentions these names sometimes… Bertholdt, Porco, Marcel…,” she says, brow furrowed. “He hardly ever talked to me about them, but sometimes their names would slip. Whenever I asked about them back then, he would just tell me that they used to be friends back when he was younger. He always looked so … sad whenever he talked about them like … like he couldn’t see them anymore.”

This story is enough for Mikasa to offer their services or at least give Gabi an offer to look at her great uncle, but Historia simply lets out a huff, pushing herself off the chaise and making her way out the door.

“An old man haunted by his old, dead friends,” Historia says with a toss of her head. She beckons for Mikasa to follow her, ignoring the horrified look on Gabi’s face. When the young girl runs forward, barring Historia from leaving, the haughty woman only sighs once more. “Look, if you’re worried he’s getting haunted by ghosts, why don’t you just run over to a church and get some holy water to splash on him? Or just buy some salt to sprinkle around his bed.” She waves her hand, gesturing for Gabi to move out of her way, but the girl refuses.

“I’ll pay you!” Gabi says. She stands resolute, her arms spread wide even as her lower lip trembles.

Historia raises an eyebrow. She steps back, a hand on her hip. “You’ll pay me?” she repeats. “You’re thirteen. What could you possibly offer me?”

“I could give you … my inheritance,” Gabi says. She sticks out her bottom lip, jutting her chin out and lifting her head. Her eyes are still red from crying, but tears have stopped falling down her cheeks. She clears her throat and continues, “Uncle Reiner hasn’t told anyone … but he’s made me the sole heir of his estate … among other things. I can … give you this mansion and everything in here if you just please help me.”

Mikasa wants to tell Gabi that it’s not necessary. Their services aren’t nearly worth that much and, even if it were, it’s illegal to make such a transaction with a minor.

Historia, of course, doesn’t care. She’s looking at Gabi with more interest now, her blue eyes shining as she looks at the girl. The woman isn’t even thinking about the logic of such a promise — when she would be able to collect the inheritance or what she would do with it. Her mind is occupied with calculating the worth of the estate and the many statues and paintings that decorate it. “I hope you know,” Historia says, her eyes glittering, “that any contract you make with me is binding.”

“You really don’t have to do this,” Mikasa begins to say, but Historia cuts her off with a snarl.

“No, I’ll do it,” Gabi says with a shake of her head. “All of this stuff … it doesn’t mean anything to me. I’ve never been very materialistic. All I really want … is for my uncle to be okay.” She lowers her arms, looking at Historia with uncertainty.

“How very noble of you,” Historia says, but she isn’t really listening. She’s busy fishing something out of her clutch purse, reaching in and pulling out a document filled out in the tiniest font. Even though the contract could have never fit perfectly in Historia’s purse without being folded up, there isn’t a wrinkle in sight when the woman presents the document to Gabi. The woman fishes out an expensive-looking fountain pen, one that Mikasa is only half-sure had originally been in the hotelier’s purse although it might be more likely she had snatched it off of a desk from the mansion when nobody was looking. Historia holds up the contract with a lipsticked smile, a perfectly manicured nail tapping at against the line where Gabi should sign. “Just sign your name here, darling.”

Gingerly, Gabi takes the pen from Historia, staring at the document with uncertainty. The pen sits uncapped in her hand, hovering over the dotted line where her signature should be. Her eyes scan the document, but the words begin to blur and she begins to gnaw at her lip.

Mikasa steps forward, lowering the document from Gabi’s face. “You don’t have to sign it.”

“Mikasa,” Historia hisses. An angry glare flashes across her face for half a second before switching to a more composed, reassuring smile directed at Gabi. “Don’t listen to her. Just sign it, sweetie. It’s harmless.”

Gabi looks from Mikasa to Historia, her expression uncertain, but she glances once more at the document and grips the pen in her hand with more conviction. The tip of the pen hits the paper and Gabi scrawls her full name — Gabrielle Mariella Braun — in an illegible, childish print before handing the fountain pen back to Historia.

“Perfect, perfect,” Historia says in a sing-song voice, squinting as she inspect’s Gabi’s signature. She turns her head slightly to Mikasa, lowering her voice a bit but not enough as she asks, “They don’t teach children cursive these days, do they? This girl’s signature is terrible. It’s like a toddler let their crayon wander across the page.” Historia takes another look at it before rolling up the contract and stuffing it into her purse.

“Cursive?” Gabi repeats with a knitted brow.

“It’s just connecting all the letters with a line, really,” Mikasa tells the girl, patting her on the shoulder to show that it’s not that big of an issue. A small part of her regrets not talking Gabi against signing the document, but she figures Gabi’s at more of an advantage than Historia is since the former is a minor and any contract she signs could be deemed void. She’ll just leave the problem for later, preferably when Armin is at her side so he can drive Historia mad enough to leave the poor girl and her inheritance alone.

“Right then!” Historia says, a lot more lively than she was a few minutes ago now. She flicks a lock of golden hair away from her face and smiles brightly at Gabi. “Be a dear and show us where your grandfather is. We’ll help him in any way we can.” It’s become quite obvious to Mikasa that Historia has long forgotten Gabi’s name despite being introduced to the girl a little while ago and having just seen her name written on a document not a minute before. Gabi doesn’t seem to have noticed. She’s more taken aback by Historia’s change in character. Mikasa can’t really blame her. The hotel manager had seen the woman do a complete 180 after being offered a yacht for her services once and thought new yacht-owner Historia was a completely different person from the usually crotchety hotelier.

“Er, yes. If you follow me, right around here …,” Gabi says, her voice trailing as she leads them out of the room and into the hallway.

Mikasa and Historia follow the girl, Historia with a new spring in her step as she lets her fingers trail against every vase and statue that they pass by with renewed appreciation for the artwork. As they walk, Historia hums a song that Mikasa almost knows by heart, but she knows it’s a song that hasn’t been sung in centuries.

≿————-　❈　————-≾

Gabi leads them to a room at the end of the east wing. The room is much smaller than Historia and Mikasa anticipated. Historia had almost walked ahead and yanked open the largest double doors in the hallway before Gabi hurriedly pulled the woman away and rushed them over to her great uncle’s quarters. The door was considerably less extravagant — a single mahogany door with simple square panels and a gilded doorknob — and Mikasa could see the frown returning on Historia’s face.

The girl opened the door just a crack, leaning in to whisper, “Uncle Reiner? I brought some visitors for you. They’re … friends of mine. They said they might be able to help you.” She waits a bit for an answer. Even when Mikasa strains her ears to hear, she can’t hear a thing. It seems that Gabi does, however, because after a pause, she finally opens the door, allowing Historia and Mikasa to enter before her.

Mikasa isn’t quite sure where to look when she steps into the room. The bedroom is every bit as lavish as the rest of the house, the furniture all in deep reds and browns with highlights of gold here and there. There’s a noticeable lack of decoration, the walls instead adorned with photos of an elderly man with a wide jaw, snowy white hair, and milky white eyes. In most of the photos he stands alone — many times posing next to some art piece that he has lying around the house — but other times he’s seen with other members of his family including his grand niece. Mikasa is so busy looking at the pictures that she almost doesn’t see the man himself buried under a mountain of pillows and blankets in his bed. He looks so still that there isn’t much difference between his real self and the version of him in pictures. The ghosts that stand beside his bed look livelier than he does, Mikasa thinks.

“Uncle Reiner,” Gabi says, her voice quiet so as to not disturb her great uncle too much. She approaches his bed, Mikasa near her side while Historia wanders around the room unbothered. “This is Miss Historia and Miss Mikasa. They come from a special place … the Blutmond Hotel. They help people like you … people who can see ghosts.”

The man’s eyes flutter open but he struggles to keep them open. He sits up and his head turns towards Gabi, following the sound of her voice, but his gaze is fixated on something past her. It’s not a ghost, Mikasa knows, because there are only three in the room right now. One is currently hovering around the old man, unsure of what to do with his ghostly hands even as his face is filled with worry as Gabi’s great uncle sits up. The other two stand on the other side of the man��s bed eyeing Historia warily as she carefully inspects the room for any valuables.

“Ghosts? Have your parents been talking about me again?” the old man asks before coughing violently into his hand. He hunches over, his whole body heaving with every cough. He pounds his chest pitifully with his other hand as he wheezes. He shakes his head when Gabi runs over with a tissue box from his nightstand. One hand is clutched to his chest, but he’s still breathing heavily when he tells Gabi unconvincingly, “I’m fine. They just worry about me because of my old age.”

The man at Reiner’s side kneels down next to the old man. His ghostly blue hand reaches out to touch Reiner’s, his taut young skin such a stark contrast from the old man’s thin, veiny hands. All of the ghosts are significantly younger than Reiner, Mikasa notices. If she has to guess, they were probably in their late twenties when they passed. Judging from their military garb and the bloodstains that bloom across their chest, they died in a war. She wonders about their relationship to the old man, why they’ve stayed with him so long when it must have been decades since their death.

“Your names are Historia and Mikasa?” the old man asks, a tired but polite smile as he looks from the two women. He sits up in the bed, his back resting against the headrest and his hands folded in his lap. Unbeknownst to him, the ghost who had held his hand earlier sits beside him, gazing cautiously at both Mikasa and Historia. “I’m sorry to say that my relatives have a habit of spreading unnecessary rumors. They seem to have worried my grand niece.”

“They’re not untrue,” Gabi insists. She tugs on the elbow of Mikasa’s suit, her lower lip trembling dangerously. Her eyes are moist as tears begin to form and she sniffs loudly before turning to her great uncle. “I’ve seen you talking to … them. I’ve heard you call their names. Bertholdt, Porco, Marcel… You’re always talking to them when you think I’m not listening, but you always tell me it’s nothing when I ask you about them.”

At the names, the ghosts stiffen, but they don’t move from their positions. They look at Mikasa, wondering if she’ll give away their existence. She tries her best not to look at them.

“Because it’s nothing,” the man says, laughing it off weakly. He gets into another coughing fit, banging against his chest. The ghost at his side, eyes wide with worry, can only look at him helplessly.

Historia’s voice pops up, the hotelier speaking for the first time since stepping into the room. “Were you in the Second Great War, Mr. Braun?” She observes a glass case with different medals, leaning forward as she inspects the engraving on all of them. Historia hums, “I didn’t realize you were a veteran.”

“Ah, yes,” the old man says belatedly, surprised at the sudden jump in topic.

“You have quite a lot of medals and honors.” Historia’s finger traces the glass edge of the case. “You fought well.” The words should be congratulatory, but Historia says this almost coldly.

The old man must feel it too because he begins to fidget under the young woman’s gaze, his silken sheets tangled in his fists as he begins to stammer a “yes” under his breath.

The ghosts must dislike Historia’s tone because the two that had stood at the side of Reiner’s bed stand up, walking over to Historia and staring down at her petite frame. They tower above her, identical expressions of repressed fury on their faces, and Mikasa wonders for the first time if they’re brothers. With only a slight difference in height and hair color, the two could be identical. Despite the two spirits that are glowering down at her, Historia doesn’t waver, not even sparing them a passing glance as she continues to peruse the other items around Reiner’s room.

“You’ll have to forgive my partner. She’s quite interested in … history,” Mikasa lies. She wrinkles her nose as she says it — partly because she’s a terrible liar and partly because the thought of Historia being interested in anything other than money is ridiculous — but Gabi nor her great uncle seem to take notice. Mikasa fishes for the little business card in her breast pocket before presenting it to Mr. Braun, making sure to hold it at an angle for the nearby ghost to see as she hands it over. She clears her throat, glancing back at the other two ghosts to make sure they were paying attention before saying, “Miss Historia and I are from the Blutmond Hotel. We provide services for those who have passed.”

All the ghosts look at her, their necks turning so fast that they might have cracked if they were alive.

“For those that have passed?” Reiner repeats, eyebrow raised as he takes the business card gingerly between his fingers. He frowns and is about to toss the card on his nightstand before seeing the upset expression on his great niece’s face. He drops the card in his lap instead before running a tired hand through his thinning hair. “I’m hoping that won’t be until a few more years yet,” he jokes, but he’s the only one that laughs. It sounds strange echoing alone in the quiet room.

“Uncle Reiner,” Gabi says, her voice rising into a whine that Mikasa knows will make Historia grate her teeth.

Mikasa puts a hand on the young girl’s shoulder, giving her a quick squeeze and reassuring smile. “It’s fine,” she whispers before turning once more to Mr. Braun. To the ailing man, she says with a soft voice, “Mr. Braun, how many ghosts do you see in this room right now?”

His eyes flicker for a bit, roaming around the room but never resting on the ghost that sits beside him nor on the ghosts that stand near Historia. His gaze finally stops somewhere above Mikasa’s shoulder, eyes watering as he whispers, “Three.”

Gabi’s grip on Mikasa’s arm is vice-like and the hotel manager has to pry the girl from her arm for her blood circulation to return. “It’s alright, it’s fine,” she says to Gabi again, brushing her off gently. Mikasa looks at the ghost beside Reiner and watches as the young man shakes his head ever so slightly, his eyes begging her not to tell the old man of his existence. She opens her mouth, but Historia speaks first.

“Those aren’t ghosts,” Historia says, finally strolling across the room to stand beside Mikasa. She ignores Mikasa’s eye roll and instead bounces about on the balls of her feet, speaking casually as if talking about the weather. “Ah, I should clarify. Those things that are haunting you … I guess you would say they’re your own memories. There are ghosts here too, but it looks like they’re only here to keep you company.” She waves her hand as she explains, trying to find the right words. Historia looks quite proud when she’s done, but everyone (with the exception of Mikasa) looks at her with a bewildered expression.

“You mean there are ghosts here?” Gabi asks with wide eyes.

If Gabi grabs onto Mikasa’s suit any tighter she’ll tear the fabric. Mikasa doesn’t particularly mind, but she knows Historia would be infuriated if Gabi ripped such expensive clothing in her presence and the hotel manager carefully pries the girl off her arm.

“The supernatural world is quite complicated,” Mikasa says gently. She’s worked in the supernatural business for years and she still hasn’t grasped it entirely, so she can only imagine the confusion that Gabi and her great uncle feel right now. Mikasa sucks in her cheek as she tries to think of how to explain the situation in layman’s terms. “There is a myriad of things that can haunt a person, not just ghosts. Spirits, demons … even deities if they’re angry enough.”

“And next you’ll be telling me werewolves and vampires exist,” Mr. Braun scoffs, but his eyes still roam aimlessly around the room for something they can’t see.

“Don’t be silly. Werewolves and vampires are another thing entirely,” Historia snorts with a roll of her eyes, although she doesn’t confirm or deny the existence of either. She points a painted finger at the old man. “What you have haunting you are your own memories, Mr. Braun, although I imagine they’ve grown horribly distorted over time.”

Mr. Braun’s mouth is tightened into a thin line, all laughter gone from his eyes. He fixes Historia with a steely glare, but she doesn’t waver. He doesn’t speak, not even to ask her to clarify. Perhaps it’s because he already knows what memories she’s alluding to.

“What’s she talking about?” Gabi hisses in Mikasa’s ear.

“Mr. Braun, how old were you when you were drafted for the war?” Historia asks, stepping closer to the bed. She ignores that ghost closest to Reiner’s side even when he stands in front of her. She stares right past him as if she can’t see him at all and continues her questioning of Mr. Braun. “Perhaps in your twenties, judging from the looks of your companions. Mid- to late twenties, even. Life was just beginning for you. Being caught up in a war you had nothing to do with must have been frustrating to you.”

“No, it was an honor to fight for my country,” Reiner murmurs, but his eyes begin to cloud over and his expression grows grimmer.

“Did your friends share the same sentiment?” Historia continues to inquire. The ghost brothers from before each put a hand on her shoulders, their expressions just as dark and dangerous as Mr. Braun’s. Still, Historia presses on. “Were they just as brave as you when they camped in those trenches with corpses of other soldiers? Did they die with honor, their bodies rotting in those holes for weeks before whatever remains of them are shipped back to their loved ones? And were you honored to be one of the ones that made it out alive, standing tall even though the guilt was slowly killing you all these years?”

The ghosts are hostile now, their hands rough as they pull Historia back from Reiner. With a flick of her wrist, Historia sends them flying against the wall, their presence only detected by the way the portraits on the wall shake slightly. It’s enough to make Mikasa flinch, but Gabi and Reiner are too distracted to notice.

It’s the last ghost, though, that has Mikasa the most worried. He stands in a protective stance, his eyes flickering with a dangerous blue flame. On his face is a terrible glower, a stark contrast from the worried look he had worn earlier. His fists are clenched against his sides, shaking slightly with suppressed rage. Historia has faced her fair share of ghosts over the years. Mikasa doubts that this one is any more powerful than the malicious spirits that Historia has gone up against, but a ghost powered by violent anger is not something to be underestimated.

“Historia,” Mikasa warns, her voice low.

“It wasn’t my fault,” Mr. Braun whispers in a hoarse voice. He seems to shrink into his bed, his silken sheets pulled tight around his body as if trying to protect himself from something. His wild eyes continue to wander above his head, looking at things that don’t exist to anyone else but him. The old man pulls the sheets over his head, but the tremble in his voice can still be heard as he whimpers, “Every day they’ve plagued me, haunted me, but they never leave.”

“Uncle Braun-“ Gabi begins, but Mikasa holds her back after Historia gives her a subtle gesture to restrain the girl.

“Mr. Braun,” Historia says, stepping through the ghost easily. She reaches over and pulls the sheets from the man’s hands, letting them fall carelessly to the floor. She grasps the man’s face in her hand, lifting his chin up, and forces him to look at her and only her. “You said it yourself that it’s not your fault. Why have you gone so long doubting your own words?”

It’s the first time the man’s gaze was fixed on something, his eyes no longer wandering aimlessly at things unseen. He licks his chapped lips as he struggles to find the answer to Historia’s question. “Because I lived while they died,” he tells her in a voice dripping with grief. His eyes grow glassy, moist with tears. “I believe that warrants some guilt, don’t you?”

Historia is silent, holding his gaze. Even when the man’s tears begin to fall, dripping down his cheeks and spilling onto her hand, she still holds on. After a moment, she finally lets go a little too roughly, throwing Mr. Braun’s head back with unnecessary force. The movement earns an indignant squawk from Gabi, who struggles to break free from Mikasa’s grip, but the hotel manager manages to hold the girl. The ghosts move towards the hotelier too, their faces alight with anger, but she waves her hand again and all three are pinned against the wall with much greater force than last time.

“What if I told you that you could see your friends one last time, Mr. Braun?” Historia asks as casually as if she were asking about the weather. She digs through her purse, humming that little tune as she does so. She pulls out a little silver pistol, her slender fingers wrapped against the gilded grip, and loads a single bullet into its chamber. She speaks again, her words light and honey-sweet as she points the barrel at the old man’s forehead. “Mr. Braun, would you like to see your friends again?”

“Historia,” Mikasa growls with narrow eyes.

“What’s she doing? Why does she have a gun?” Gabi asks, voice rising. Her head whips back to Mikasa, eyes wide with horror. She tries to break free from Mikasa’s grip, but the woman holds the girl back tightly. With more urgency, Gabi thrashes more violently, trying to lunge towards Historia’s gun. “Let me go! She’s going to shoot him!”

The ghosts have broken free, all of them clambering for Historia with arms outstretched, but the blonde stands there with her gun aimed as if she and the old man are the only two in the room. Historia ignores the ghosts even as they grab at her, her arm remaining steady even as they try to pull the gun from her fingers. She keeps her gaze fixed on the old man who only stares back at her. While Gabi screams and Mikasa struggles to keep the young girl out of the line of fire, the old man appears calm, a look of resignation on his face.

“What do you say, Mr. Braun?” Historia asks quietly.

He doesn’t answer. Instead, he rests his head against the headboard, eyes closed as if he’s about to fall asleep. His answer is adequate enough for Historia to fire the gun.

A piercing shriek cuts across the room just as Historia pulls the trigger, but it’s the only sound that can be heard. There is no whistling bullet. There is no bang as the bullet makes its mark upon the target’s skull. There is no dull thud as a corpse falls to the floor. There is only Gabi screaming for her great uncle as she finally manages to pull away from Mikasa’s hold, her screams only halting when she reaches for the wound on Mr. Braun’s head only to find him fully intact and unmistakably alive as he blinks back at her.

“What …?” Gabi asks, turning slowly to look at Historia and Mikasa.

“It’s a special gun, sweetheart,” Historia explains as she blows at the tip of the barrel. It’s for show, really, because the gun isn’t smoking at all. She drops the gun in her bag, patting it happily before looking back at Gabi and noticing the girl’s stunned expression. Historia frowns, leaning over to Mikasa to ask, “Did I not make that clear?”

“Not at all,” Mikasa replies. Her employer is many things, but clear is not one of them.

“Ah, it’s so troublesome to explain though,” Historia grumbles. She looks at Gabi, watching as the girl slowly loses her mind trying to comprehend everything unfolding in front of her. Her lower lip sticks out in a pout and Mikasa can already see the wheels turning in her mind as she tries to find a way out of dealing with the young girl. If there’s something Historia dislikes almost as much being told how to handle her money, it’s dealing with people on the verge of a mental breakdown. Historia looks over to Mikasa, her face hopeful as she waits for her employee to step in and take the lead, but Mikasa shoots her down with a dirty look and Historia sighs. “Look, Gabi,” Historia says impatiently, hands folded across her chest and foot tapping already. “It’s really not that difficult to understand. You see, the bullet I shot your Great Uncle Braun with allows people to see ghosts. Now, Mr. Braun can finally interact with the ghosts that have been watching over him for so long, all thanks to yours truly!” She waves a gracious hand and waits expectantly for the praise that she believes is deserved of her, but it never comes. Gabi is too busy staring at the empty air around them to give Historia any sort of thanks.

“What do you mean?” Gabi asks, her voice reaching a terrible whine that makes Historia sniff disdainfully. She looks at Mikasa, her expression making it quite clear that she thinks that Historia is speaking nonsense, but the woman offers her no further explanation. Her eyes land once more on her Great Uncle Braun and she notices that his eyes no longer roam. Instead, they are fixed on something in front of him, something that she cannot see. Horrified, she turns to Mikasa, gripping the woman’s wrists so hard that her knuckles turn white. “What’s wrong with Uncle Reiner? Why is he like that? He’s even worse than before!”

“He’s fine,” Mikasa says soothingly. She breaks one hand free from Gabi’s grasp and pats the young girl’s head gently.

“We could make this a lot more simple, you know,” Historia says. She pulls out the gun from her purse once more, twirling it carelessly in her hand. “Shall I shoot her too?”

Mikasa shoots Historia a hard glare. “You are not shooting a child.”

Her employer rolls her eyes, grumbling under her breath about how she was simply suggesting an easier solution, but she puts the gun away.

The ghosts are speechless as they cautiously approach Mr. Braun. The two brothers keep their distance but the other ghost — the tall one that had looked so murderously down at Historia when she had pulled the trigger — is the only one to stand right in front of his old friend. Both the ghost and Mr. Braun stare at each other as if they are the only two in the room. The soldier holds up a hand, reaching for the old man but too afraid to touch.

“Bertholdt.” It’s not a question that comes from Reiner, but a statement of disbelief. As he gazes at the ghost, the old man looks more awake than he has been this entire visit. He sits up, reaching for Bertholdt’s outstretched hand. Their fingetipsrs touch, then their palms, and then their fingers lace together. Ever since he had first laid eyes on Bertholdt, the real Bertholdt, Reiner hasn’t looked away once. “It really is you.”

“It’s true, then? He can see me now? He can really see me?” Bertholdt asks, staring in awe at his fingers interlaced with Reiner’s. He looks to Historia, eyes begging her to tell her that this is all real and not some cruel trick.

It’s a heartwarming scene, but Historia stands there with her arms folded across her chest. She gives him a curt nod before looking away disinterestedly, an inaudible sigh slipping from her lips.

Mikasa gestures for the ghost and his companions to get closer. “Go on,” she says with an encouraging smile. “He hasn’t seen you in so long. It must be overwhelming to reunite with you after all this time. Tell him everything and banish the nightmares that have been plaguing him for so long.”

Reiner continues to converse with Bertholdt as if nobody else is in the room. “But have you been here all this time?” He looks behind Bertholdt, a genuine smile now on his face. Although he has aged, his grin is as youthful as a young boy’s. He gestures with his free hand, waving his friend’s over. “Marcel and Porco, too? After everything I’ve done, you’re still here?” Tears are beginning to well up in his eyes once more but Bertholdt hastily wipes them away with a tender thumb.

“We were worried about you,” Marcel says. He takes a seat on the edge of Reiner’s bed. His expression is much softer now, filled with affection as he gazes down at his old friend, and rests a gentle hand on Reiner’s arm. “After the war … we were sorry we abandoned you. We couldn’t find it in ourselves to leave you again until we knew you were alright.”

It must have been torture for them to stay by Reiner’s side all those years, observing him helplessly as he screamed at distorted visions of them that blamed him for their deaths. It takes a certain type of strength — a certain type of love, Mikasa thought — to stay for someone for all those years. It had already been over half a century and still they had never left him. It must have been a similar pain for Mr. Braun too, Mikasa thinks, to have been tortured by the memory of his fallen for all those years. All those years he had suffered alone. Not anymore.

“What’s going on?” Gabi whispers, eyes wide as she tries to take in a scene she can’t understand.

“We’ll explain outside,” Mikasa whispers back. She places a hand on Gabi’s back and leads the girl towards the door, Historia dragging her feet as she follows behind. In the background, Reiner and his old comrades continue to talk.

“We were so worried,” Porco is saying, voice quiet as he takes a seat beside his brother Marcel. “You blamed yourself for things that weren’t your fault. It didn’t feel right to just leave you when you were suffering so much without us.”

“Did I worry you? I’m sorry. You stayed because of me instead of moving on like you should have,” Reiner says with a wry smile. He gazes down at the hand that holds Bertholdt. “But I’m glad I could see you all one last time… I missed you.”

Bertholdt gives Reiner’s hand a quick squeeze. “We missed you too.” His eyes crinkle when he smiles. It fades a little bit, affection replaced with concern as he asks, “But the things you were seeing … are they still here?”

Reiner doesn’t even look around to check, keeping his eyes on Bertholdt instead. “No,” he says with a shake of his head. His smile is spread so wide, wrinkles appearing at the corners of his mouth and eyes. “I only see you.”

Mikasa shuts the door gently behind her, a small smile on her face.

≿————-　❈　————-≾

“So let me get this straight,” Gabi says slowly. She holds up a fist, bringing up a finger every time she brings up each new topic she’s had to process. “There were no ghosts haunting Uncle Reiner. The things he was seeing were just hallucinations that were conjured up in his mind due to his own guilt. But there were ghosts — the ghosts of his old friends — that were watching over him all these years because they were worried about him. And I can’t see them because I wasn’t shot with a magic bullet?” She looks at her three fingers with a frown and then at the two women beside her.

“That’s pretty much it,” Mikasa hums. She’s only had to explain it a handful of times to the girl, so she’s quite pleased that Gabi’s grasped it so quickly even if the young girl’s expression grows more and more troubled with each repetition.

“Please don’t make us go through it again,” Historia says with a grown, knocking her head back against the wall. She bangs the back of her head against the wall a few times in frustration, her expression one of tired impatience, before letting out another exaggerated sigh. Although Mikasa has been patient throughout, Historia has been growing more and more impatient, only offering a few words here and there while Mikasa took care of most of the explanation.

“Well, it’s hard to believe you when I can’t see anything! How can I even trust you guys? I might have signed over my entire inheritance to a bunch of frauds!” Gabi points out, her gaze more suspicious of them than it was when they first met. “For all I know, you might have just made things worse bringing up his past!”

Historia stiffens at the young girl’s words and for a moment Mikasa thinks she’s going to get up and leave, but the woman opens her mouth to say quietly, “Darling, would you have rather he been haunted by his past until his last breath?” Gabi doesn’t respond and Historia continues, her eyes a little less icy now as she leans against the armrest. “You don’t understand because you’re so young. You don’t have things that you regret or lost things you can’t live without, not the way your uncle has. You should be thanking me, really, for allowing him the ability to reunite one last time with his old friends. Some people aren’t so lucky.”

The young girl’s cheeks blaze a bright red and she looks down at the floor, her eyes bright as they begin to fill with tears. “I’m sorry. I’m just scared,” she mumbles, lower lip trembling dangerously. “I don’t think I’ve ever seen him like this before. So sad, but at the same time … so happy.” The tears begin to roll down her cheeks one by one, her shoulders shaking as the girl tries to suppress her crying. Mikasa is about to reach out and offer Gabi a shoulder to lean on but, surprisingly, Historia beats her to it.

Gently, the blonde wraps an arm around the child’s shoulders before guiding her onto her shoulder. It’s a rare sign of sympathy, one that Mikasa usually doesn’t see Historia display, especially towards clients. It’s even more surprising when Historia begins to stroke the girl’s hair, brushing stray locks away from the child’s face as she hums that song that Mikasa still can’t fully recall. “Farewells are like that,” Historia murmurs, looking into the distance as if remembering something. “They’re always sad, but they’re not entirely sad. Never entirely sad.” There’s something wistful in the way she says this and Mikasa almost opens her mouth to ask why, but now isn’t the time. Maybe another day when they’re alone and there isn’t a child between them that needs comforting.

The three of them stay that way for a while, silent save for Gabi’s sobs and the muffled conversation on the other side of the while. As Mikasa rubs circles on the young girl’s back, she focuses her gaze on Historia, who has that faraway look in her eye that she sometimes gets when she isn’t thinking. It’s not one that Historia wears freely around others, but she’s gotten more careless around Mikasa over the years. Mikasa notices that such a distracted gaze tends to appear during businesses such as these where a client with ghosts that should have left a long time ago. There’s no ghost that haunts Historia now, at least none that Mikasa can see, but she has a feeling she already knows the memory that keeps Historia up at night. Why Mikasa never asks the woman herself, she doesn’t know.

The door to Mr. Braun’s room finally creaks open and the ghosts — Porco, Marcel, and Bertholdt, who is still holding onto Reiner’s hand as the old man follows them to the hall — trail out. They look much calmer now, their expressions serene and no longer hostile as they look first at Mikasa and Historia.

“Did you have a nice talk?” Historia says, getting up to meet them. She looks over at Mikasa and Gabi. Although the young girl is still crying, Historia beckons her forward, a twinge of annoyance on her face that’s replaced with a polite smile as she looks at Mr. Braun. “I hope you’ve had enough time to say your goodbyes. Goodness knows you’ve probably had a lot you wanted to say to Mr. Braun for the past half a century, but you’ve stayed here far too long, don’t you think?”

They nod in agreement, but they all look reluctant to go, Bertholdt especially. Still, Marcel steps forward with a gracious smile and says, “We have to thank you, Miss Historia, for allowing us to meet with Reiner one last time before we pass.”

Historia waves away his thanks with a wave of her hand, although her smile grows into a smirk after hearing the praise. “Not at all. It’s the least I could do.” She turns to Mr. Braun, her gaze more patient than it was when she was dealing with the elderly man’s great-niece. “Are you ready to say goodbye, Mr. Braun?”

He doesn’t look at Historia, his gaze lingering on Bertholdt whose hand he still holds. His withered hands cling to the spirit, eyes wistful like he never wants to let go. “Will I ever see you again?” he asks.

“If there’s ever a way, then I’m sure we’ll find our way back to each other,” Bertholdt replies. Mikasa can’t see the ghost’s face, but she knows he means it. She doesn’t know if it’s possible — to meet someone again after death or if reuniting in another life is feasible — but she believes his words now. If anyone can make it happen, it will be him.

≿————-　❈　————-≾

Mikasa and Historia drop the ghosts off at the hotel, leaving Connie and Levi to assist them and introduce the ghosts to the hotel’s rooms and various facilities. Mikasa had taken a few minutes to assure the ghostly trio that all of their accommodations (within reason, she added) would be met to the best of the staff’s ability. She would see them all again soon, the manager assured them even as Historia impatiently dragged her away to meet their reservation at the dim sum restaurant Mikasa had placed earlier today.

“So,” Mikasa asks, watching fondly as Historia shoves an entire BBQ pork bun into her mouth, “how is the food?”

“Incredible,” Historia answers with her mouth full of food. Despite how elegant the woman might appear on the outside, Historia — much to Mikasa’s amusement — always eats as if she’s starving. It doesn’t matter if they had eaten hours ago or thirty minutes ago; Historia will shovel food into her mouth until her cheeks are filled and doesn’t stop until every dish is licked clean. While others have found the woman’s table manners atrocious and even frightening at times, Mikasa can’t help but be entranced whenever she watches Historia eat.

“Come, eat more. The shrimp dumplings are absolutely divine.” Historia plucks a beautifully wrapped shrimp dumpling with her chopsticks and offers it to Mikasa.

“Thank you,” Mikasa says, holding out her plate to accept the dumpling. She takes the extra time to admire the delicate pleats in the translucent skin and the gorgeous pink of the plump shrimp sitting inside. When she takes a bite, the delicate wrapper breaks apart and her teeth dig into the shrimp with a delightful crunch, her mouth filling with the shellfish’s sweet flavor. Mikasa easily finishes the dumpling in another bite, savoring the taste of it as the starch wrapper melts on her tongue and mingles with the savory-sweet filling. When she’s done, she looks up to see Historia looking at her with a smug smile on her face.

“Delicious?”

“Very.”

“You’re very welcome,” Historia says, her chest puffed out proudly as if she was the one to suggest they eat here tonight. She goes back to inspecting the dim sum dishes laid out in front of them, her eyes latching onto a plate of chicken feet. She nibbles on one, spitting the bones out onto a napkin. When she’s done, she gets another, her lips shining pink from the grease. “It’s lovely, but it would have been better if you had let me change like I had asked.”

After dropping the ghosts off at the hotel, Historia had thrown the door open and rushed out to go change before Mikasa had caught her by the wrist. The woman needs to have a wardrobe change almost every hour of the day. It’s another one of Historia’s eccentricities that Mikasa lets slide half the time, but she had made reservations earlier and changing it would have been inconvenient.

“Would the chef’s cooking be any different if you were wearing a different outfit?” Mikasa asks. She takes a gentle bite into a soup dumpling, making sure not to slurp the broth too noisily. It almost burns her mouth, but the tender pork filling inside more than makes up for it.

Historia frowns, discarding the bones from her third chicken foot onto the table. She licks the sticky sweet black bean sauce from her fingers before wiping them on the napkin that sits across her lap. “It would taste better if I were wearing a different outfit,” Historia replies before plucking a fried crab ball from its plate. She digs her teeth into its crispy exterior with a loud crunch and swallows before continuing. “Things taste better when you’re dressed for the occasion. You should know this by now, Mikasa. We’ve been together for over twenty years, you know.”

She doesn’t need the reminder. Mikasa has been counting the days just like her cousin has been counting down the days. He’s been with Historia for almost an entire century. Mikasa wonders what it’s like to know someone for one hundred years. She can’t fathom it.

“And what would you wear instead?” Mikasa asks.

“Mmm.” Historia brings her chopstick to her mouth to nibble at thoughtfully. The woman has entire rooms filled with clothes — all organized by color, season, and style — and yet she’s still able to remember and assemble entire outfits complete with shoes and accessories. She grins when she’s finally thought of the perfect outfit, pointing her chopsticks at Mikasa with a grin on her face. “The Majorica pearls. They look like little dumplings. And the blue tulle dress, the one with the trailing skirt.”

Mikasa knows exactly which ensemble Historia is referring to, although it’s admittedly been a while since she’s seen the blonde hotelier wear the fairy-like tulle. With its shimmering skirt that seems to be a different shade of blue every time Historia moves and its long billowing sleeves that hang off Historia’s shoulders, it’s a piece that’s far more suited for a runway or an elegant wedding than a casual outing to a dim sum restaurant, but Historia wears such extravagant pieces with such confidence that it would seem out-of-place if she were to wear anything less luxurious.

“I think you look beautiful right now,” Mikasa replies.

Historia hardly bats an eyelash. “Of course I do. I’m always beautiful,” Historia says, brushing off the compliment as easily as she always does. It used to bother Mikasa, but she’s used to it now. “That blue dress would really suit the atmosphere of this restaurant better though.”

Mikasa only hums in response.

The two continue eating — Mikasa in delicate bites while Historia gorges herself with buns stuffed with succulent meats and crispy deep-fried shrimp balls but somehow never dropping a crumb. Mikasa doesn’t even eat much. She’s never had much of an appetite, but Historia cleans every plate. By the time Historia cleans off their last plate, there’s a mountain of dirty dishes stacked high on the side of the table, and yet Historia is still hungry enough to call over a nearby waitress and order nearly every dessert on her cart.

Mikasa doesn’t touch any of the pastries that are laid out in front of them, but Historia plucks a crispy durian cake and breaks it in two, the flaky crust crumbling underneath her fingers and spilling onto the table. The intoxicatingly sweet scent of the durian custard is fragrant enough to fill the whole room. Historia stuffs one half into her mouth, savoring the delicate taste of the durian custard as she chews and swallows. She follows with the other half before wiping her fingers on the cloth napkin in her lap.

“Do you still dream of me?” Historia asks nonchalantly. The question comes out of the blue, making Mikasa look up from where she was staring at Historia’s fingers.

I do, Mikasa wants to say. I dream of you every night. But she doesn’t say it. She never does. Instead, the manager replies with a simple, “Yes.”

“Hm,” is all Historia says.

≿————-　❈　————-≾

That night, Mikasa dreams of Historia in a garden. She wears clothing from a different time, the material like that from a rough burlap that has been bleached white from the sun and stitched into a plain dress. She’s younger in this dream, her face a little rounder and her blue eyes less guarded. Historia lays in the garden, staring up at the starry sky. She doesn’t stir even as another girl joins her.

“Historia,” the girl says, freckles sprinkled across her olive skin. Her hair is chopped unevenly in a short cut that frames her thin face, but Historia still smiles when the girl leans over her. It’s not the first time Mikasa has seen this girl in her dreams. “I dreamed of you again.”

“Did you?” Historia asks. Her mouth always curls upward whenever she sees the girl. She’s probably not even aware of it.

“I always dream of you,” the other girl replies.

“Was I beautiful?” Historia asks.

“Of course, you were,” the other girl replies. She lies down beside Historia and the blonde curls up against her, Historia’s blonde head resting against the other girl’s shoulder while their fingers intertwine. “You’re always beautiful.”

It’s painfully intimate. The two look so happy together, curled up against each other as they stare up at the sky. Mikasa doesn’t think she’s ever seen Historia smile like that. It makes her heart ache.

[exeggcute]

Would you mind elaborating on your job search experience? I found your sankey chart really interesting and informative!!

Did you get something related to your degree?

In my experience most job applications I hear back from turn out to be spam or BS. Which is SUPER exhausting and SUPER disheartening. What are some warning signs you have learned to look out for that something is sketchy or exploitative or scammy?? Thanks for anything you’re willing to share 🥺

yeah for sure! I'm glad you liked the chart, tracking my job applications in a spreadsheet finally paid off lol.

I may be a bit of an outlier in the typical millennial experience of Job Search Hell (at least this time around) because I finally managed to get a foothold in my field and have pretty concrete experience for a specific job title that (1) has consistent hiring demand, albeit with a fair amount of competition among candidates and (2) was already remote-friendly prior to the pandemic so it's somewhat easier to scour job listings when you aren't restricted to your immediate geographic location. (granted, the wider selection of remote roles to choose from is somewhat offset by the fact that everyone else in the applicant pool is also unrestricted by location, so you have more choices but also more competition. the ratio likely evens out overall). I exclusively applied to (or considered) remote roles, but there's a handful of on-site jobs in my area (at least in the Before Times)—though those only crop up sporadically and are also hypercompetitive.

for context, my 2018-2019 job search (immediately after graduating college) spanned nine miserable months, although not continuously; I had three separate false starts where I quit a shitty internship, quit a shitty online job, and got fired from an in-person job, but over the course of those nine months I probably sent in like four hundred applications total and had about a dozen interviews, most of which were fucking bananas. nearly all of these job applications were for in-person roles, and I was applying for stuff pretty much at random—unlike this last time around, when every single job I applied to (or was approached to consider) either had the same title as my last role or was functionally identical in terms of job duties but had a slightly different name. all of this is *related* to my degree, broadly speaking, but in practice almost nothing I studied in college applies directly to my job. it's a weird situation because you can technically major in this exact field (or enroll in certification programs for it) but very few people do. having SOME kind of degree is pretty much a requirement (undergrad at a minimum, grad school is nice but not necessary unless you're really specialized), but having a BA in english or communication is about as common as having a BS in comp sci or engineering. (literature major here.) the preference for a BA or BS varies between company and specific sub-industry (more specialized roles generally prefer people who have a degree in that particular area), but once you have a few years of experience under your belt people stop caring for the most part.

getting my foot in the door with experience was 100% the most difficult part of this—and honestly, was the main differentiating factor between this job search and the last. I did have some pre-graduation job experience that I was able to leverage at the end of my nine-month search that landed me my last job, but I didn't figure that out until way too late in the game. it's not a one-to-one analogue with what I do now, but it was close enough that I figured out ways to classify it as relevant experience and boost my "years doing X role" number from 0 to Not Zero. (the "you need experience to get experience" paradox is only solved by a bit of creative reframing, lol.) once I had that purported experience under my belt, I was able to get a job that gave me actual tangible experience, which blows the whole thing wide open on future job search cycles.

which is all to say: there's nothing wrong with twisting things a bit for your benefit, so long as it's not something that'll bite you in the ass later. reframing particular skills or experience to suit a potential role is a workable strategy as long as you know you're actually capable of doing the things that role requires. don't lie about knowing how to build rockets if you’re applying to a job at NASA.

the spam shit is way too common with job applications these days, whether it's outright fake listings or vaguely scummy shit masquerading as a cool place to work. specific red flags vary, but some things I look out for:

job listings that don't clearly name the company you'll be working for. exceptions obviously apply, like if you apply through a specialized job board or staffing site that anonymizes its clients, but if a listing just says it's an "exciting opportunity" or "fun workplace," it's probably not. if there is a name, google it.

check out glassdoor ratings from past employees. if a place has a really shitty rating or reviews that consistently mention egregious shit in the workplace, you're better off saving the effort. certain places will also have ratings from applicants and interviewees, which might give you more insight into whether it's worth looking into.

anything that requires you to pay the employer for the privilege of working there.

for writing gigs specifically: any freelance gig that requires you to submit fully-completed work but doesn't guarantee that they'll pay you for each submission, only the ones they approve, and you won't know if it's approved until after you already wrote it. content mills suck across the board but these are the worst of the worst.

general corporate bullshit speak like "work hard, play hard," "fast-paced environments" where you "learn on the job," any indication that you'll "always be in a working mindset" or that "you're never truly off the job," or job listings that make it sound like you'll be doing completely random things on any given day with no consistent job duties.

any place that lists "free coffee" under a list of employee benefits. it doesn't sound like a big deal, but I swear it's a huge red flag... if cheap instant coffee is their best shot at convincing you it's a good place to work, it's gonna be a nightmare.

[forgedirons]

              *     so  like.  yeah.  it  me,  cc.  i  can’t  read,  spell,  or  write  –  &  yet  i  joined  this  anyway  because  i  am  are  in  love  with  you  all.  anyway.

❛           𝐲𝐨𝐮𝐫  𝐩𝐢𝐥𝐥𝐚𝐫𝐬     ›     𝐈𝐒𝐀𝐁𝐄𝐀𝐔     .  

the   communication's   chair   of   the   yale's   elite,   they're   twenty-two   and   a   senior   undergrad   student   majoring   in   print   journalism.   they   are   as   vigilant   as   they   are   importunate.

blackmail  :

(i).  despite claiming to be a journalist that holds the truth over everything, she's being paid off by an embezzling official & keeping the funds for her own personal spending. 

(ii).  she won her current internship by sabotaging her competitors with “strategic investigating”, which she then used against them by creating a gossip buzz under an anonymous pseudonym. 

(iii). death tw: claims that her parents passed away her freshman year of undergrad and uses it as a way to avoid talking about how they’re in prison ( & how it’s her testimony that landed them there ).

 ❛           𝐲𝐨𝐮𝐫  𝐭𝐞𝐦𝐩𝐥𝐞𝐬     ›     𝐀𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐇𝐄𝐓𝐈𝐂𝐒     .    

you  wear  sorrow  well,  grief  is  not  a  compliment  –  nor  is  it  to  be  romanticized.  your  heart’s  always  been  broken  &  you  doubt  it  was  ever  whole  to  begin  with.  behind  closed  eyes,  maroon  rose  petals  fall  onto  a  fresh  blanket  of  white  snow;  your  fingers  are  pricked  by  the  thorns  while  you  open  your  eyes  to  the  flickering  lamp  in  your  room.  cloaked  in  shadows,  red  string  is  strung  across  a  board,  connecting  clues  that  nobody  else  but  you  seems  to  see.  you  are  meant  for  so  much  more  than  this  run  down  shack,  you’ve  always  told  yourself  this  –  you  wonder  if  anyone  else  is  listening  (  but,  you’ve  always  been  alone;  your  words  have  always  bounced  back  onto  your  own  skin  ).

 ❛           𝐲𝐨𝐮𝐫  𝐤𝐢𝐧𝐠𝐝𝐨𝐦    ›     𝐅𝐔𝐍𝐃𝐀𝐌𝐄𝐍𝐓𝐀𝐋𝐒     .  

                           ✧  *   core  

↠  full  name  .  isabeau  hwang  . ↠ nickname(s)  /  alias(es)  /   title(s)  .  (  off  brand  )  nancy  drew,  isa,  is,  beau  . ↠  age  /  dob  .  twenty  -  two  /  march,  19  . ↠  hometown  .  ?  idk?  kansas  somewhere  . ↠  current  location  .  yale  idk  what  city  it’s  in  don’t  @  me  . ↠  ethnicity  .  korean  . ↠  nationality  .  american  . ↠  gender .  cis  gender  woman  . ↠  pronouns .  she  /  her  . ↠  orientation  .  bisexual  ,  grayromantic  . ↠  occupation  .  undergraduate  student  . ↠  face  claim  .  kim  sojung  (  sowon  )  .

       ✧  *   countenance

↠  height  .  five  feet,  eight  inches  (  172  cm  ) ↠  build .  slim,  well  toned  but  tall  –  slim  /  athletic. ↠  tattoos  .  be  good,  on  the  inside  of  her  left  middle  finger.  also,  this.  ↠  piercings  .  ears  . ↠  scars  .  a  couple,  none  too  prominent  . ↠  hair .  kept  long  &  though  she  seems  to  sport  a  different  color  every  year  since  arriving  on  campus,  she’s  recently  dyed  it  back  to  a  natural  shade  of  black.  it’s  always  in  place  &  always  styled  neatly,  whether  it’s  pulled  back  or  curled  (  to  pretentiously  imperfectly  perfection  )  . ↠  eyes  .  dark  brown  &  often  inquisitive,  like  she’s  trying  to  solve  a  riddle  that  nobody  else  is  in  on  except  herself.  half  of  the  time,  they’re  hidden  behind  gold  -  rimmed  glasses  that  look  a  little  too  expensive  for  someone  of  her  background,  but  she  otherwise  wears  contacts.  has  really  bad  vision,  though,  &  is  a  blind  bitch  . ↠  clothing  style  .  best  described  as  business  casual,  semi-formal,  professional  but  make  it  chic.  lots  of  skirts,  lots  of  turtlenecks,  long  coats  &  expensive  fabrics  that  all  coordinate  to  make  her  look  either  like  she  just  walked  out  of  a  dark  academia  novel  or  a  meeting  with  the  president  of  the  school  where  she  did  nothing  but  argue.  very  rarely  seen  in  sweats  or  anything  “bummy”  –  maybe  she  cares  too  much  about  her  image. ↠  usual  expression  .  resting  bitch  face  –  but  promote  it.  she  just  looks  unapproachable  in  general,  her  usual  expression  is  something  between  disgust  &  apathy,  it  makes  her  look  like  she’s  consistently  looking  at  her  surroundings  &  being  very  displeased  with  everything  around  her  (  it’s  because  she  made  the  face  too  much  as  a  kid,  now  it’s  stuck  that  way  )  . ↠  speech  .  elegant  &  well  -  thought  out.  everything  she  says  sounds  like  it’s  rehearsed  &  practiced,  like  she  wakes  up  in  the  morning  &  writes  a  script  for  her  entire  day.  she  very  obviously  thinks  before  she  speaks,  always,  &  tries  to  sound  like  she  looks,  but  catch  her  without  anyone  around  &  she  speaks  a  lot  like  the  trailer  trash  she  really  is  . ↠  distinguishing  features  .  intense  eyes  that  make  her  look  like  she  always  knows  someone’s  secret,  the  slight  lopsided  grin  –  she  might  be  smirking  or  maybe  she  just  knows  something  you  don’t,  finely  shaped  eyebrows  idk  dude

       ✧  *  ruminations    

↠  (  +  )  positive .  vigilant  ,  heedful  ,  aspiring ↠  (  -  )  negative  .  importunate  ,  reckless  ,  impetuous ↠  moral  alignment  .  true  neutral  -  neutral  evil ↠  likes  .  her  designated  corner  of  the  library  –  especially  late  at  night  when  she  can  sigh  super  loudly  without  anyone  glaring  at  her,  iced  americanos  but  only  on  rainy  days  &  only  on  rainy  days  where  she  wears  her  glasses,  the  feeling  &  the  smell  of  solid  cash,  putting  together  the  pieces  of  a  puzzle  that  she’s  been  working  on  for  a  long  time  (  investigations  or  not  ),  stargazing  but  only  on  beaches  &  only  during  the  wintertime  . ↠  dislikes  .  any  other  journalist  ever,  any  pop  beverages  (  because  she  also  doesn’t  like  to  burp ),  the  smell  of  chlorine  or  gasoline  or  freshly  cut  grass,  being  touched  by  strangers  in  any  sort  of  instance,  waking  up  before  ten  in  the  morning  (  staying  up  until  10  am  however,  different  story  ),  know  it  all  TA’s,  professors  who  can’t  debate  her  for  more  than  fifteen  minutes ↠  quirks  .  always  has  a  small,  moleskin  notebook  on  her  person  that  she’ll  pull  out  to  write  little  notes  in,  has  amazing  penmanship,  speaking  of  –  only  ever  writes  in  pen  &  never  uses  anything  else  to  write,  squints  &  digs  her  front  teeth  into  her  tongue  when  she’s  really  focusing  on  something  . ↠  hobbies  .  disappearing  for  long  periods  of  time  just  to  resurface  &  act  like  nothing  happened  (  solving  mysteries,  like  nancy  drew  ),  being  the  first  to  let  her  opinion  be  heard  by  anyone  who  happens  to  be  nearby,  starting  fights  &  finishing  them  by  cheating.

❛           𝐲𝐨𝐮𝐫  𝐛𝐞𝐚𝐮𝐭𝐲     ›     𝐂𝐇𝐑𝐎𝐍𝐈𝐂𝐋𝐄     .

trigger  warnings : death  ,  lots  of  illegal  activity

       ✧  *  ISABEAU.

        *     she’s  born  to  a  wanted  pair  .  with  bounties  &  rewards  attached  to  their  mugshots,  they  bring  a  baby  into  the  world  &  decide  to  bring  her  along  for  the  ride.  named  isabeau,  her  first  memory  is  watching  the  door  while  her  parents  count  money  on  a  motel  bed  behind  her.  her  first  word  is  “fuck!”  while  she  rides  in  the  backseat  of  a  stolen  pick  up  truck,  a  toddler  clutching  a  stolen  baby  toy  while  wearing  clothes  that  definitely  don’t  belong  to  her.  whether  it’s  inherited  or  not,  she  grasps  greed  &  holds  it  as  her  biggest  sin.  much  like  her  father,  in  that  aspect  –  there’s  nothing  more  she  craves  than  having  more.  more  money,  more  lust,  more  power,  more  reputation  –  more,  more,  more.  it  sits  in  her  gut  like  a  waning  hunger  she’ll  never  get  rid  of  –  but,  she  doesn’t  know  what  to  call  it  for  almost  her  entire  life. 

she’s  not  the  eldest  of  the  crew.  her  sister  is  three  years  older  than  her  &  much  more  kind  than  anyone  else  in  the  family  will  ever  be.  where  isabeau  takes  after  their  parents  (  often  described  as  ruthless,  greedy,  selfish  &  reckless  ),  pippa  was  her  own  person  through  &  through.  she  was  soft,  &  sweet,  &  she  always  did  what  was  right.  though,  she  was  raised  to  believe  that  lying  to  the  police  was  right,  &  that  stealing  in  the  supermarkets  was  the  right  thing  to  do.  growing  up,  though,  isabeau  always  sort  of  knew  that  it  was  really  just  her  &  pippa  against  the  world.  their  parents,  however  eccentric,  were  often  absent  &  left  them  alone  for  days  on  end  –  only  to  return  with  more  trouble  on  their  hands.

eventually,  they  decided  to  settle  in  buttcrack  nowhere,  kansas  in  the  smallest,  shittiest  trailer  park  they  could  find.  it  was  one  small  trailer  that  kept  the  hwang  family  together;  isabeau  &  pippa  sleeping  on  a  couch  -  turned  -  bed,  their  parents  on  the  big  one  in  the  back.  she  gets  enrolled  in  school  &  is  taught  to  never  tell  anyone  who  her  parents  are  or  what  they  do  for  a  living  (  which,  including  robbery,  dealing,  blackmailing,  etc.  is  a  lot  )  otherwise  she’ll  get  in  a  lot  of  trouble.  but  isabeau  is  a  curious  girl,  she  watches  everything  unfold  in  front  of  her  &  always  wants  to  know  more  (  &  more,  &  more,  &  more  ).

one  of  the  brightest  of  her  class  in  the  small  town,  she  grows  to  be  somewhat  of  a  nancy  drew.  people  of  the  town  know  her,  they  give  her  their  problems  &  missing  cats  &  disappearing  letters  &  mismatched  shoes  to  solve.  isabeau,  no  matter  how  troubled,  is  smart  &  the  townspeople  know  it.  looking  back  on  it,  she’ll  always  remark  that  they  were  trying  to  help  her,  but  she  only  ever  saw  it  as  something  to  do.  her  biggest  case,  finding  a  missing  girl  in  the  seventh  grade  –  her  smallest  case,  finding  a  coin  purse  that  someone  misplaced.

in  eighth  grade,  she  starts  her  own  newspaper  at  school  where  she  publishes  stories  of  her  investigations.  initially,  it’s  just  something  to  keep  her  at  school  longer  (  because,  home  isn’t  really  where  she  wants  to  be  –  she’s  old  enough  now  to  realize  home  isn’t  home  ),  but  she  learns  how  good  she  is  at  it.  creating  pieces,  interviewing  people,  just,  plain  writing  –  it’s  her  thing.  her  english  teacher  (  mrs.  kenningston  )  encourages  her  &  gets  her  a  freelance  spot  with  the  town  newspaper.

things  are  great  for  isabeau  in  high  school.  she’s  popular,  editor  of  the  school  newspaper,  amateur  detective  &  freelance  reporter  for  the  town  newspaper.  her  goal  is  to  get  out  of  town,  to  get  far  away  from  her  family  &  become  some  sort  of  lois  lane.  freshman  year,  her  sister  graduates  high  school  &  is  set  to  go  to  ksu  –  before  sophomore  year,  isabeau’s  burying  her  sister  in  the  graveyard  of  a  town  they  both  hated.  a  freak  accident,  the  newspaper  reports  –  &  for  a  month,  everyone  believes  it.  but,  sophomore  year  starts  &  isabeau  anonymously  testifies  against  her  parents  in  court;  their  recklessness,  along  with  their  shady  dealings  led  to  the  death  of  not  only  pippa,  but  a  group  of  graduated  teenagers  in  town.  the  hwang  parents  go  away  for  life  on  isabeau’s  testimony,  &  she’s  never  seen  in  town  again. 

by  dumb  luck,  she’s  adopted  into  a  middle-class  family  somewhere  in  vermont  &  sent  to  a  very  good  school  that  looks  very  good  on  her  transcripts.  she  goes  into  overdrive  trying  to  bury  her  past,  carefully  crafting  herself  a  new  identity  with  each  year  that  passes  in  her  high  school  career.  things  get  buried,  people  are  swayed  –  isabeau  hwang  isn’t  the  same  isabeau  hwang  from  that  small  town  in  kansas  who  saved  a  group  of  children,  she  isn’t  the  isabeau  hwang  who  befriended  the  unfriendly  folks  on  the  outskirts  of  town  that  people  thought  were  possessed.  isabeau  hwang  from  vermont  is  a  very  lucky  girl  with  a  troubling  past  she  doesn’t  talk  about,  but  manages  to  graduate  top  of  her  class  with  offers  from  three  ivy  league  colleges  &  every  other  school  she  applied  to.  that’s  all  she  offers,  that’s  all  most  people  know.

at  yale,  she  works  even  harder  to  maintain  her  reputation.  she’s  the  girl  who’ll  go  places,  a  poor  girl  who’ll  get  into  yale’s  elites,  the  girl  who  nobody  wants  to  argue  with.  on  campus,  she’s  loud,  she’s  opinionated  &  she’s  (  or,  thinks  she’s  )  powerful.  a  member  of  the  school  newspaper,  her  pieces  are  quick  to  be  published  &  even  quicker  to  gain  traction.  isabeau,  a  nosy  investigator  at  heart,  chooses  to  publish  stories  that  grab  attention  &  often  expose  a  thing  or  two  –  she  gains  a  small  following  just  because  she  tends  to  always  know  a  thing  or  two  about  a  thing  or  two.

it’s  obvious  she  had  her  eye  set  on  the  elites  from  the  moment  she  stepped  foot  onto  campus,  &  after  fighting  tooth  &  nail  to  gain  a  reputation  (  as  an  opinionated,  over  -  achieving,  pretentious  shrew  of  a  person  ),  she  argues  her  way  into  the  elites.  in  her  own  words,  it’s  much  better  to  have  her  on  their  side  rather  than  have  her  against  them  (  empty  threat,  what  she  gonna  do,  she  have  no  money  really  ).  at  the  moment,  it  looks  like  she’s  really  gotten  everything  she’s  dreamed  of  –  but  isabeau  hwang  deals  in  greed,  &  all  she  wants  now  is  more,  more,  more

[iampikachuhearmeroar]

*insert lame & corny end of year summation post here*:

hmm. 2019. funny that the decade is almost over. but this year has been tumultuous, to say the least. or, as an exchange from a movie that is now 20 years old, (what the actual fuck?) states:

“people perceive you as somewhat.....”

“tempestuous?”

“heinous bitch is the term most used most often.”

and that’s to say the most, in the least amount of words. but i’ve never been good at staying short, precise & succinct. colouring inside those ever annoying lines. oh no. no! no! no! i will i 𝙉𝙊𝙏 stick to the status quo of being a well-trained english and philosophy graduate. here’s the ever so long-winded low down, a few days early, if anyone cares to read.

this year I realised a lot of things... but the main big thing I learnt is that I can’t be 1000% “on” all the time with my uni stuff, otherwise i’ll burn out. and that’s what i did. i burnt out. i burnt out fucking hard. at first, i started turning in most of my assignments late. then, i stopped turning in assignments altogether. then i ignored all of my professors. I didn’t explain anything. just stopped doing my work altogether. and disappeared completely off the face of the earth from my course.

“but gwladys/ilona! that’s SOOOO unprofessional and un-adult of you!” everyone says in a tone of reprimand. i know. i know. i know. but you’re talking to the person that never asks for help. that refuses to ask for extensions, bc by fucking god she knows that she’ll get it done by the due date deadline.... even if means that she’ll hyped on coffee, 2 minute noodles and chocolate till 3am every time she does it. high functioning brain-scatter bitch is in full mode all the time.... just until she just can’t do it anymore... and so then crashes and burns spectacularly. we know that im dramatic. that much hasn’t changed 😂. also I’ve learnt that maybe I should 𝙖𝙘𝙩𝙪𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 𝙖𝙨𝙠 for help, every once in a while.

so, anyway. to get back on track. by the end of august then, I was stagnant. morose. uncaring. mentally, it was: 𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙪𝙘𝙠 𝙖𝙢 𝙞 𝙧𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩 𝙣𝙤𝙬???? 𝙩𝙮𝙥𝙚 𝙨𝙝𝙞𝙩. 𝙬𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙪𝙘𝙠 𝙖𝙢 𝙞 𝙙𝙤𝙞𝙣𝙜???? 𝙩𝙮𝙥𝙚 𝙨𝙝𝙞𝙩. 𝙙𝙤 𝙞 𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 𝙣𝙚𝙚𝙙 𝙩𝙤 𝙨𝙥𝙚𝙣𝙙 𝙪𝙥 𝙩𝙤𝙬𝙖𝙧𝙙𝙨 80-𝙛𝙪𝙘𝙠𝙞𝙣𝙜-𝙜𝙧𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙤𝙣 𝙢𝙮 𝙨𝙩𝙪𝙙𝙞𝙚𝙨 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙩𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙨𝙩𝙞𝙡𝙡 𝙜𝙚𝙩 𝙛𝙪𝙘𝙠𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙣𝙤𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙚????? 𝙞𝙨 𝙞𝙩 𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 𝙬𝙤𝙧𝙩𝙝 𝙞𝙩, 𝙖𝙛𝙩𝙚𝙧 𝙖𝙡𝙡??? 𝙩𝙮𝙥𝙚 𝙨𝙝𝙞𝙩 and finally, 𝙬𝙝𝙮 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙪𝙘𝙠 𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙢𝙮 20𝙨 𝙨𝙤 𝙛𝙪𝙘𝙠𝙮????𝙩𝙮𝙥𝙚 𝙨𝙝𝙞𝙩. all in all I asked my self frequently: “𝚊𝚖 𝚒 𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚕𝚕𝚢 𝙱𝚄𝙸𝙻𝚃 𝚏𝚘𝚛 𝚙𝚘𝚜𝚝𝚐𝚛𝚊𝚍???? 𝚘𝚛 𝚊𝚖 𝚒 𝚓𝚞𝚜𝚝 𝚍𝚘𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚒𝚝 𝚝𝚘 𝚊𝚟𝚘𝚒𝚍 𝚎𝚟𝚎𝚛𝚢𝚝𝚑𝚒𝚗𝚐???” and “more than likely nah and also yeah.” was my answer. to say that I was “just tired” would be an understatement. i was fucking exhausted. weary. fatigued. bushwhacked. just utterly fuckin’ buggered. all the while, there’s a nagging voice of baby boomer somewhere that says that: “you imbecilic brat! you can’t burn out while studying! it’s not a real job! get a real job first and THEN you’ll know what burnout REALLY IS.” when, in fact, i’ve been in tertiary study non-fucking-stop (bar uni breaks- although even on my uni breaks I was never really resting properly- because I’d buy some odd textsbooks and my prescribed texts and read some of them on every uni break) since business college in 2014. like y’all. you see how i got to my wits end??? this is my fifth and a half year in tertiary study. im pretty damn well fucking spent.

within all of the above, i also learnt not to try and cram my first 3,000 word essay ever (bc i avoided subjects with 3,000 word essays in undergrad mostly because i felt like i’d never reach that word limit) into about 6 hours before it was due. i failed a few assignments. then started failing subjects. which wasn’t a first for the first thing (failing assignments), but a first for the latter (failing entire subjects). I was sick and tired of word counts and marks dictating my worth, in a sense.

it’s taken until now to get over this feeling of being stuck, being nowhere. just being a mess. maybe it’s just part of your 20s to feel forever stuck. but will i return to my course next month??? much more renewed, and less worn out, and also less likely to procrastinate til the last minute???? the answer is: i still have no idea. this year was a ride. an omni-shambles, if you will. (there’s a new cool large word that I just pulled from google 😂). maybe it’s just part of your 20s to forever feel stuck and lost 🤷🏻‍♀️😓.

anyway, on a much happier note... 2019 was the year that my ass finally got her Ps. I’m hoping that next year I’ll use them more often though 😂 ah well. at least I finally achieved that huge hurdle. I also got back into my old hobbies of going to concerts and doing find-a-word puzzles (which is just this last week actually). the concert got me out of the house for the first time in months, where as the puzzles are helping me reconnect with my love of language (which I felt that I kind of lost through uni assignments in undergrad tbh) and just solving puzzles in general.

the final year of the 2010s has been a tumultuous and heinous bitch. a rough patch of sucky-ness. a dead end feeling. this was all mixed with a huge wave of relief with getting my licence after many years (almost 10 years) of putting it off for most of the time.... then being severely anxious during the learning process after having a shitty instructor in 2014 who told me that “no one in the in this area will ever bother to teach you to drive, because your driving is just that awful! stick with me and I’ll teach you!” which admittedly put me off learning to drive for a fucking whole ass year. then I finally got it 5 years later after 2 more instructors, and one who was dedicated to helping actually get my Ps. I’m glad that work finally paid off (even if it means I failed quite a few times).

“what will 2020 bring you?” inquires the lame buzzfeed/facebook personality test. idefk, buzzfeed or lame fb personality test: that’s either of your jobs to tell me. not mine 😂. but let’s hope it’s better than 2019.

finally, in my typical нυмвℓε ιηтεяηεт мεмε ғαямεя σηℓιηε ρεяsσηα fashion, have a meme to let you laugh into the new year.

[runmilder]

Henchman

AO3 link here

Chapters: 1/1 Fandom: DCU, DCU (Comics), Batman - All Media Types Rating: Teen Relationships: Dick Grayson/reader Tags: coffee dates, Mind Control, And Romance, oh my!, POV Second Person

Summary: 

Sometimes you’re the hero. Sometimes you’re the victim. And sometimes… sometimes you’re just the overpaid lackey.

Living in Gotham is a bit like living in the eye of an infinite hurricane. Sure, it’s calm for now, but you can see the wall of the storm on all sides, and you’re left to wonder if you have enough time to make it to the 7-Eleven and back before the next wave hits. Except instead of rain and wind, it’s going to be clowns or cultists or whatever the villain flavor of the week happens to be.

This week, it’s… eldritch creatures?

“Oh, for the love of—” You dodge a whip-like tentacle and stumble into the brick siding of the convenience store. There’s nothing particularly convenient about it when its barred windows shatter and shower you in a fine hail of glass. You cover your head, eyes shut, and wish you’d just eaten what was in your fridge.

Somewhere nearby, sirens wail.

Today, it seems, you’ve been caught out in the storm. And unlucky you, you forgot to bring your umbrella and Lovecraft survival guide.

Another dark, writhing shape launches itself at you, suckers flaring, and you lunge into an alley at a run. You’ve seen this anime. Doesn’t end well for hapless schoolgirls.

Ordinarily, dark alleys are a huge no-go in Gotham city, but “ordinary” doesn’t really cover this situation. Besides, if there’s a gun-toting thug behind a dumpster, you hope the many-limbed creature—creatures?—go for them first.

Something flies over your head, close enough that you can feel the downdraft. You duck belatedly, knees hitting the pavement. There’s a sound like someone hitting a wet sack with a bat, then a crackle, a shriek, and a smell of charred meat. And over it all, the pervasive scent of garbage.

Eau-de-Gotham.

You turn to see the broad back of one of the city’s many costumed crusaders, and if you had the breath to spare, you’d sigh in relief. Nightwing wails on one thick tentacle, batons lit up and buzzing.

“Keep going!” he shouts back at you, hurtling into the heart of the mess. From the mouth of the alley, you see someone in red joining the fray.

Calvary present, you waste no time in booking it the rest of the way down the alley, resolving to take the long way back to your apartment.

Back home, the news blathers on about a science experiment gone wrong or some shit—what else is new—and switches to an aerial view of shadowed figures just going to town on equally dark, inhuman shapes. You can see your local junk food stop to their right, its windows shattered. You bet if you open your own window, you’ll be able to hear some of the commotion.

Your microwave shrills, and you flick off the television with a long-suffering sigh.

Just another Tuesday in Gotham.

Wednesday brings with it a fair number of actual storms, and a date with your sort-of boyfriend.

“You look rough,” he says, taking in your rain-ravaged form.

“Dick,” you say as both address and acknowledgment of his entirely uncalled-for observation.

He grins. “I bought you a coffee.”

“You’re on thin ice, buddy.” You take the proffered cup anyway.

Dick is sitting by the window of the coffee shop, legs stretched out under the small table. You sit across from him and try to figure out how to arrange your own limbs without disturbing him. He takes a sip of his drink, clearly amused, before trapping your legs between both of his own and settling back with a smug look. You consider struggling for a moment, but you can feel his muscles flexing beneath the denim, and hoo boy, that’s not a battle you’d win. You lean back, adopting what you hope is an impassive look, but from the way Dick continues to radiate smug satisfaction, you think it’s a loss.

“So,” you say, hoping to guide this interaction back to neutral ground. “How’s work?”

“Work’s good.” He shrugs, and you try not to stare at the way his shirt tightens around his shoulders. “Routine stuff. Uneventful.” He never wants to talk about work. “How’s class?”

You groan. That question has hounded you for the past four years.

“I just signed up for my last semester. Can’t come soon enough, honestly.”

Dick nods. “You continuing with that internship in the spring?”

“Mhm.” You jiggle your cup, feeling the liquid slosh. “Dr. Irving wants to keep me on. Says I’m “good with the kids.””

“The “kids” being…”

“Her plants,” you say.

You both share a smirk.

Dick sobers. “Listen,” he says. “I was thinking—”

“Dangerous.”

“Seriously.” His legs tighten around yours. “What if you had another offer?”

“Paying what she does? In this economy?” Your laugh is only half mocking. “Honestly, I’m still waiting for the other shoe to drop there, but until then…” You raise your cup in a salute.

Dick leans forward. “What about double?”

“I’m sorry?”

“What if you were offered double what you’re making with the good doctor to… what? Water her plants and stay out of her way?”

Your mind blanks. “Uhh…”

Sounds shady as hell. You already feel like you’re getting away with highway robbery with what Dr. Irving is paying you. Or, at least, what her research lab is paying you. And also, rude, you do more than water plants and make yourself scarce.

You also make ungodly amounts of herbal tea.

“I… like all of my organs?” you finally say.

“I said a job, babe, not a back-alley procedure.”

“Actually, you said “offer,” which sounds infinitely more ominous.”

His eye-roll is more of a full-head-roll, and when his neck stretches, you catch sight of a discolored spot on the skin beneath his jaw.

“Is that a… hickey?” you say slowly. It doesn’t really look like a hickey. It actually looks like he was shot in the neck with a giant suction cup dart.

He claps a hand over the spot. “Um. N-yeah.”

“Nyeah?” You narrow your eyes.

This isn’t even about the possibility of Dick necking another person—a person with a lamprey mouth, apparently—as you’re not exactly clear on the parameters of your relationship. Such as it is. It’s just that the spot on his neck is niggling at something in your brain. His reaction is equally suspicious, although he locks it up pretty fast.

“Sorry, I—” He looks pained. “Stuff… happened last night. It was… electric.” The flat tone of his voice belies his words.

You open your mouth. Close it.

Is this where you ask for clarification about the two of you? Broach the topic of exclusivity?

…Why does this feel like one of those situations where a guy claims to have been watching porn when he’s really been watching something weirdly hard to explain, like Teletubby conspiracy theories?

“Dick, what’s really goi—” you start, but a low-tone buzz interrupts you, and Dick already has his discrete work phone in hand, eyes flicking over the screen.

He mutters something under his breath. “Look, I have to—” He looks at you, grimacing. “I am so, so sorry. I don’t mean to ditch you after—” He waves a hand to encompass the tense air between you.

You frown, confused and frustrated. You definitely feel like you’re missing something.

Dick slides his chair back, his legs detangling themselves from yours in one deft movement.

“Can I call you later?” he asks. The expression on his face speaks volumes for what answer he expects.

You surprise him by nodding. You’re still staring at the angry mark.

He lets out a short breath through his nose. “I—okay. Good.” He bends over you for a second, hesitating, before pecking you on the head. “Stay dry.”

And then he’s gone.

You’re left with half a cup of cooling coffee and a head full of questions.

Dr. Paula Irving is a little prickly, but also mostly absent, so she’s pretty much the best boss ever. When you were flipping through internship applications, S.T.A.R. Lab’s jumped out because—hello, “paid.” Right there in print. You weren’t sure what pittance could be expected for a botanist’s undergrad assistant, so when you interviewed—first with the lab, and then with the scientist herself—and she told you the sum, your jaw nearly hit the floor.

“It’s an incentive,” she said, eyes looking through you. “Treat them well.”

You didn’t care at that point whether her plants required only the blood of virgins—you were getting this internship, dammit.

Thankfully, the lab’s greenhouse inhabitants need only the usual upkeep: sunlight, water, and occasional pruning. You spend the first week learning the ins and outs of plant care under your employer’s watchful eye, and after that, you are left to your duties in silence. It’s calm, methodical work, and the green space is always nap-weather warm. It’s nice.

Sometimes, when you’ve finished tending the plants, you’re to help Dr. Irving with… whatever it is that she’s doing. It mostly involves you wearing protective gear in the little white tent she’s erected and keeping the temperature steady on the vials of plant extracts that she’s examining. Occasionally, she even trusts you with a small knife, and you dice what looks like diseased plant pieces and put them on microscope slides. She never bothers to explain what she’s working towards, and you’re not getting paid to ask questions.

It’s kind of a soap-bubble existence.

That being said, you don’t expect it to pop as it does.

“Hey, Doc, sorry I’m late. There was a guy with sonic weapons on my normal route, and my taxi had to—” You stutter to a halt, taking in the scene.

Normally, your employer is dressed to kill—business skirts, heels, the whole nine yards—but today she seems to be taking the saying a little more seriously.

“I’ll just...” You make a grab for the door handle, looking to make a speedy exit.

A vine darts out to cinch your arms to your waist. You suck in a shallow breath and wonder what it is about you and tentacle-like things lately. At least the vine doesn’t have suckers on it.

Wait—

“Now this is unfortunate,” Poison Ivy née Paula Irving says, shattering your thoughts. She glides closer, plants blooming in her wake. You feel like you’re looking at some carnal painting of Eve, all leaves and bare skin. “I had hoped to avoid complications like this. Keep my work and home life separate, if you will.”

You knew this job was too good to be true. Science credits and competitive pay? You should have just taken out a loan.

“Look, I won’t tell anyone—” you say, the words tumbling out before you can catch them. You really don’t want to find out what it feels like to have vines grow up your sinus cavities and into your brain.

“Of course not, sweet thing.” The woman has a smile as poisonous as her name. She strokes a hand down your face. “We’re going to make sure of it.”

The puff of pollen isn’t what you’re expecting. You sneeze, once.

Then things get a little… hazy.

“Now we have a lot to do today, and I’m going to need you to be a very good helper.”

You find yourself nodding. You can be a good helper. You can be a great helper.

Something soft pats your cheek. “That’s what I like to hear.”

There’s something wrong.

Dr. Irv—Pam—seems unfazed, and she would know—she knows everything—but there’s still… something. You pause in your fiddling with a line of heating concoctions, head spinning. It’s like a ringing in your ears. Like a ringing in your whole head.

“Don’t let that extract burn,” Pam says sharply, and the moment is lost.

You adjust the temperature, happy to be of help.

You’re not sure how long you’ve been here, but it’s not important. Pam says you’re close—so close—to completion, and it would be a shame to stop now.

You agree. Why leave when you could be here, helping?

Some distant message in your brain pings, but you send it straight to voicemail. You have the brief thought that maybe you should sit down, but there are no chairs here, and you can’t just leave. Pam says you should stay in this room, and that seems reasonable. There’s too much to do.

Something pings again, and this time it’s not in your head.

“Be a dear and turn off your phone, would you? It’s bad lab manners,” Pam says. She doesn’t look up from her slides.

You float over to your shoulder bag, feeling mortified. You didn’t turn off your phone! Pam must think you’re so rude. Maybe you should throw your phone in the garbage.

Yeah, that seems like the best course of action.

You reach for the power button, but the screen lights up again, another message coming in. You blink. There are… a lot of missed messages. That seems important, somehow.

“Something wrong?” Pam asks, suddenly beside you.

You start, and the screen goes black. You stare at the dark shape for a handful of seconds, unseeing, before giving a shrug and tossing it into the waste bin.

“It’s not important,” you say, smiling up at the woman.

“Hm.” She peers into your eyes for a moment, and you smell something cloying, like roses and overripe fruit, before she turns away. You waver in place, the ground bucking beneath you.

It’s not importa—

You’re happy to hel—

You pitch forward, losing the battle with your own equilibrium.

Something warm catches you around your waste.

“Easy there,” a vaguely familiar voice says in your ear.

The room around you shifts again. You feel like you should tell someone that you’re feeling a little under the weather, but your tongue grew wings and flew away, and you’re not sure about the state of your vocal cords. There’s suddenly a lot more green in your field of vision, and that seems cheerful.

“I can’t say I’m glad to see you, little bird.”

Oh, but Pam doesn’t seem to be cheerful at all. Your fingers twitch in sympathy. You can’t seem to manage much more than that.

“”Little” from whose perspective, Doctor Irving?”

No one seems very happy, actually. Such a shame, because other than your general inability to do anything, you feel great.

“I’m surprised it took you so long, honestly,” Pam says. “I thought one of your kind would come flying in here half-cocked weeks ago.”

There’s some maneuvering, and you’re lifted so that Pam is no longer in your line of sight—you’d frown if you still had lips, but you think they hitched a ride with your tongue—and you are instead looking up at a man in a mask.

Or, more specifically, you’re looking up at a masked man’s jaw and mouth.

“’ey,” you slur.

Blue eyes blink down at you, momentarily distracted. “What did you do?”

You’re not sure what he means. You’ve only been helping; he doesn’t have to sound so harsh—

“Just a little plant coercion,” Pam says airily. “Nothing permanent, if you’re so concerned.”

Oh. No one’s angry at you. That’s good.

The lips continue to frown. The shape of them is familiar, and you feel like you’ve thought about them before. At length.

“Dick,” you say muzzily.

The look now aimed at you is one of alarm.

“Are you kidding me?” your sort-of boyfriend hisses through his teeth.

You wonder why he’s wearing the mask. You like his face. It’s a good face.

Some of that thought must find its way out of your mouth, because there's a shushing noise—rude—and suddenly you’re in motion.

“Don’t think you’re getting away with this, Ivy,” Dick throws over his shoulder.

There’s a feminine scoff behind him. “You think you can just come and go as you please, don’t you? Men.”

Your free ride gets a lot rougher when vines start snapping toward Dick’s feet. He dashes out of the lab, dodging encroaching flora, and you resolve to close your eyes and hope for the best. You’re sad that Pam’s upset, but Dick is here now, and you really like Dick.

“I r’ly li’e you,” you say, because it’s important that he knows.

“Your timing,” Dick pants, tucking you in closer, “leaves something to be desired.”

“Mm.” You’d say more—something about his mouth, maybe—but something is tugging you down, down, down into darkness, and you see no reason to resist.

Dick will keep you safe.

“—orked for Poison Ivy for months without suspecting her, and I show up and get pegged in minutes. Even after the drugs!”

You’re not sure what death feels like, but you think you might be experiencing it.

“Eugh,” you can’t help but groan when you go to scrape your eyelids open. Too bright.

There’s the sound of footsteps and a hand on your forehead.

“Hey, take it easy, you’ve been out for a while.”

“Dick?” you ask, eyes still firmly winched shut. Your mind’s all jumbled, and your sinuses feel like they’ve been hit with spring allergies.

There’s a pregnant pause.

“…Yeah. About that.”

You crack an eye open.

“Oh,” you say, mouth dry for a whole host of reasons. “Hi.”

“Hi,” Nightwing says with a wry grin. “We have a lot to talk about.”

The coffee shop is sunny today, and you have a disposition to match.

“Well someone looks chipper,” Dick says when you come strolling in, grin wide enough to split your face. “The interview went well, I assume?”

You bend and smack a kiss against his cheek, but when you go to take your seat, he snags an arm around you and reels you back in for a proper greeting.

“Mm,” you breathe against his mouth. “So good.”

“I know I am.” He winks and lets you go.

You roll your eyes. “I meant the interview, you doof. I swear, if your ego gets any bigger, we’ll have to roll it behind you in a wheelbarrow.”

His ankles stretch out to link around one of your own. His smile is entirely unapologetic.

“So, you got the job?”

“Dick, your dad runs the company. Of course I got the job.”

“Nah, he didn’t have to pull any strings for this. You did it all on your own.”

You have to look down to avoid the warm look in his eyes. You might be blushing.

“Wanna celebrate tonight? My treat.” He waggles his eyebrows invitingly, as if you need coercing to accept the offer.

“Sure you don’t have any other dates tonight? Any eldtritch creatures you wanna get real personal with?”

Dick groans. “You’re never going to let me live that down, are you?”

“I could be convinced to drop that particular instance. That I was so callously and impersonally seduced to out a super villain?” You give a haughty sniff and flip your hand in a so-so gesture. “Jury’s still out.”

Dick grabs your wavering hand and rubs his thumb over your knuckles. “I’m sorry it’s such an imposition for you.”

“Every day I suffer.”

He laughs, then. “Free up your schedule tonight,” he says, leaning in. “I’ll make it up to you.

The way his voice drops at the last has you shivering.

“I’ll… make some adjustments,” you say.

Gotham may be a hurricane, but you’re feeling weatherproof today.

[thetwoguineabook]

I'm curious to learn what led you to decide to make a career change to software development from your original field of study (if it's not too personal of course). I'm an undergrad student who shares many of your interests in history and politics, but I've recently been having doubts about the sort of career I want to pursue in the long term, and wondering what I might do should I want to do something else in ten years or so...

(a note of warning: I’m going to talk about some Bad Mental Health stuff here)

Well, it’s something of a long story. The last few years of my life have been a pretty continuous disaster- I had to quit my PhD programme (in Theology), I had a row with my sister that’s caused a rift in the family ever since, my girlfriend of three and a half years dumped me out of the blue a week before Christmas, I was harassed for several months and then evicted by my previous landlord, with the additional stress of the move and the Brexit vote I had a nervous breakdown and had to take time off work, but my mental health only deteriorated and I ended up losing my job.

I was at absolutely rock-fucking-bottom. If I was not as lucky as I am in having parents who helped me out financially I probably would have killed myself. As it was, they were kind enough to cover my rent while I focused on getting better and taking some time to really think about what I wanted to do.

The career I’d imagined in academia clearly wasn’t going to happen, and while the job I got fired from was reasonably well-paid and I got on with my colleagues, it was absolutely killing me intellectually. I was so bored, and when all the other good things in my life started to crumble away, that boredom just made my depression worse and worse. I’d also realised that the kind of career I was pursuing- in government/third sector administration- is an absolute fucking dead end in terms of career progression. You can’t move up into a management job without experience. You can’t get that experience unless some weird fluke happens and a management role gets dumped on you when you’re being paid to do something else. And I can’t imagine that being a manager of a bunch of admin monkeys is massively more intellectually stimulating than being an admin monkey myself. I was doing it because I didn’t see any other options, not because I really wanted to.

It occurred to me that, had I chosen to pursue a STEM field instead of the Humanities, while the job prospects are still pretty dicey in a lot of fields I’d at least have a much clearer path of progression. And I’d been wanting to learn to code and putting it off for years, or attempting to self-teach and then getting intimidated by just figuring out where to start. So I googled things like ‘learning to code’ and ‘career change coding’, and came across the bootcamp I am two weeks’ shy of finishing. And I’ve discovered in the process that yeah, software development is highly paid and there are more jobs than there are developers and there’s a lot of opportunity to advance, but also that I just really fucking love to code. It makes me feel like my brain is really awake, like I haven’t felt since I was doing my MA. And it’s been strangely, intensely therapeutic for my mental health too.

I would say that if you enjoy what you’re studying right now, get all that you can out of that study and that enjoyment. I loved studying Theology. I miss it. And honestly, when you’re in undergrad it can be hard to have any idea of what kind of career you might have if you’re not doing something really vocational (and even then, it’s not simple).

But your intellectual interests and your career don’t have to match, and the kind of job that you pick when you’re just out of university does not in any way lock you down for life. I’m about to turn thirty and I am the youngest person in my bootcamp cohort- there’s people five, ten or more years older than me, from all kinds of different backgrounds, who’ve decided that they want to change direction. 

There isn’t a time limit on this stuff. Stay open to new possibilities, make sure to save if it’s at all possible so you have a fallback either if the worst happens or if you need to fund a change in direction, and let life come at you. The idea that so many of us seem to have that you have to have your whole life figured out before you’re 25 is some serious bullshit. We’re all just making it up as we go along.

[sleepykittypaws]

Holiday in the Wild

Original Airdate: November 1, 2019 (Netflix) Where to Watch?: It’s a Netflix original, so it should be available on the service forever

The first thing that, as a Hallmark/Lifetime movie vet, hits you in the face about Holiday in the Wild is the budget. I’d be willing to bet that the cost of this one film could have paid for about half of Hallmark’s 40 titles, and it’s one of the streamer’s lower-budget films.

Kristin Davis and Rob Lowe, even in his ridiculous Indiana Jones cos-play, are both more than competent actors, but their predictable, and almost-as-chaste-as-Hallmark, love story is really beside the point. The stars are the scenery—this was really filmed in Zambia and South Africa—and the realistic baby elephant puppets. 

Not that there isn't plenty of ridiculousness. When rich NYC housewife Kristin Davis’ husband leaves her, he does so immediately after their son (played by Rob Lowe’s real-life son, John) leaves for college, saying he waited till he left so as not upset him. But the door was literally barely closed. As bad husband gathers his already-packed suitcases (how did Davis not notice those in her immaculate apartment?), he must have met up with his son in the elevator, so quickly was their 20-year marriage dispatched.

And then, two days later, after giving away all of her husband’s bespoke suits to the homeless (which is never mentioned again), she’s off to Africa alone on their "second-honeymoon" safari where she totes roughly $20,000 worth of Louis Vuitton luggage, but we see they had coach seat assignments (“22A and 22B”). Umm, yeah, no way the hedge fund guy with the $20 million dollar Manhattan apartment was sitting in the cheap seats on his way to the luxury safari. C’mon movie!

Also, it’s August, y’all, as they take pains to point out. It’s gonna take a while to get to the holiday part of this movie. (My family didn’t even suss out it was a Christmas movie, despite the title, till about an hour in.)

After a meet-cute that isn’t, Davis quickly ditches her luxury lodge for a tent at an elephant sanctuary, which they conveniently had waiting for her even though she wasn’t supposed to be there, when they find an orphaned baby elephant on the plane ride. (Yes, Rob Lowe is not only a pilot, but also a rescuer of baby elephants.)

Oh and, she’s a vet, non-practicing. Which is mentioned early on, but she never acts like it. I mean, they have no animals. Have you ever met a vet without pets? Also, she quickly says she knows "almost nothing" about elephants. Huh? I mean, I changed my major from pre-vet in undergrad, but even I know that zoology, and the study of large animals, is a rotation you’d have had to complete to get your degree. So, even if you hadn’t worked with them since, you’d still know more than 95% of people.

And then she stays at this elephant sanctuary indefinitely, but they never once ask the rich white lady with luggage that costs more than most people in Zambia would see in a lifetime for a donation to the facility. Nope. Wouldn’t think of it, even though their funding is precarious. 

Eventually, we reach the part where her son (Rob Lowe’s son in real life) comes for Christmas, and it’s very confusing with Lowe talking about "her son," but you know it’s really his, and the audience is left kind of creepily wondering if she’s falling in love with Rob Lowe because of his elephant wrangling and leather hat, or because he looks astonishingly like her own kid.

By the way, if you’ve never seen how John roasts his dad on Instagram, it’s well worth a look, especially as many of the pics he and his brother have ribbed their dad over are from this movie.

Anyway, after Christmas she packs up her LV bags and heads to Manhattan where her 6,000 sq. ft. apartment has just been sitting vacant this whole time, which her completely docile and un-angry (ex) husband had no problems with that all. Though she’s sad when the divorce papers come, there’s no discussion of property division, or money issues—heck she never even hires a lawyer that we see—so I guess Davis was married to the only hedge fund guy in history who didn’t screw over (or try to) his first wife in the divorce. 

And then, in the least surprising turn of events ever, she finally learns, via a FaceTime call, that the sanctuary is in trouble. Hilariously, it’s implied that this happened because Rob Lowe stopped sleeping with the 25-year-old blonde who kept showing up in his tent. Yeah, because  what incredibly gorgeous, yet also conniving, 20-something doesn’t want to kill a bunch of elephants just because she can no longer get any from a guy 30 years her senior? 

By the way, we never even see anyone in this movie do anything but kiss lightly—and then only twice. This evil blonde we see only three times in the year-plus this movie spans, never even brushes Lowe’s hand. As far as we know, their entire relationship is basically her giving dirty looks to Davis when she finds the brunette (fully clothed) in Lowe’s tent, and Lowe then telling Blondie, “whatever this is, isn’t working,” before she dastardly declares if they can’t keep having these 30-second conversations every six months, she’ll murder all the elephants by cutting the foundation’s funding.

Yet, even then, Lowe still doesn’t ask the obviously wealthy lady who loves the sanctuary and lived there for six months for any money. Because his pride, like his penis to the blonde lady, is worth way more than those elephant's lives, apparently. Who works for a charity organization, but is above asking for money? That’s like…the whole point.

So, anyway, as anyone with two brain cells could predict, Davis’ wealthy NYC friends save the sanctuary in a matter of minutes just by writing a couple of checks. Something they likely do on a daily basis without a second thought, before rushing off to buy their fifth Birkin bag, or pick up their toddlers from $75k/year private preschools. I’m kidding…They have their $150k/year nannies do that. What I’m saying is…The stakes here are super low, folks, and the elephants were never in even the slightest danger.

Anyway, after Davis hilariously snail mails the checks to Zambia in a giant envelope with no notice at all (thanks goodness the sanctuary didn’t close while she was waiting for her surprise to arrive), she finally talks to Bargain Basement Indy on the phone and tells him she sold her apartment and is moving to Zambia. We know he loves her because we see he named his plane after her—one of the few nice beats the movie doesn’t really oversell. Anyway, knowing that, he should be more excited about, since that apartment was easily worth $20 million, so she’s basically saying they’re set for life, and then some. 

They get married and live happily ever after, and in case the lingering shots of their wedding in Africa didn’t convince you they made it legal, they actually add in her sending an email to her son—who she earlier saved from dropping out of college with the radical suggestion that he get a music degree—literally spelling out the fact they’re married, lest you think they’re sharing a tent in sin, I guess.

And that’s it, the end, Rob Lowe and the elephants live happily ever after on Davis' massive divorce settlement.

It’s weird that Netflix held this film for a full year—it was filmed in the summer of 2018—when Christmas was so little a part of its plot. Though it was important in that the park rangers who live full time with the elephants seem to only get to see their wives and children at the holidays, so I guess all those kids were conceived during that one week a year they’re all together? I mean, I don’t think it was goat stew that was the aphrodisiac if that’s the only time they’re together…if you know what I mean. (Boom Chicka Wah Wah)

And why was it safe and cool for Kristin Davis to just move right into the camp, but dangerous for the ranger’s families to be there anytime other than Christmas week? 

Still, despite the relative lack of holiday flare—if not for the name and Netflix’s insistence, I’d say this was actually a stealth Christmas movie, not an overt one—I enjoyed my time watching this. I’m an animal lover, and a holiday movie lover and the scenery really was as stunning as Rob Lowe’s outfits were ridiculous.

Final Judgement: 3 Paws Up (Or, 2 paws and a cat costume trunk, for veracity)

[nigeiadigitalmarketingcompany]

Transcript: Allison Schrager

Digital Elixir Transcript: Allison Schrager

  The transcript from this week’s MIB: Allison Schrager, is below.

You can stream/download the full conversation, including the podcast extras on Apple iTunes, Bloomberg, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Overcast, Castbox, and Stitcher. All of our earlier podcasts on your favorite hosts can be found here.

~~~

BARRY RITHOLTZ, BLOOMBERG HOST: This week on the podcast, I have a special guest. Her name is Allison Schrager, and amongst other things, she is the author of a book that I took with me on vacation and absolutely found intriguing.

My version is just demolished, because I plowed through it on a beach in Turks and Caicos, and really despite everything going on around me I kind of ignored it, and just worked my way through the book.

I love the title, “An Economist Walks into a Brothel,” which really has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with finding ways to do risk reward analysis and really unusual places.

So whether it’s big wave surfing or horse breeding or poker playing or paparazzi, there are all these unusual situations where we don’t really think about the risk reward analysis, but really the details of that have a major impact on how these industries and these individuals progress.

And once you start looking into that, it changes the way you look at everything, from insurance to annuities to hedging to market-based portfolio. Risk permeates everything we do, and most of us just don’t give it enough time and thought to recognize the dangers and the advantages it potentially can afford us.

So if you’re at all interested in, fill in the blank, investing, insurance, understanding risk, understanding with happens in a brothel, from an economic perspective, I think you’re going to find this to be an absolutely fascinating conversation. So with no further ado, my interview with Allison Schrager.

ANNOUNCER: This is “Masters in Business” with Barry Ritholz on Bloomberg Radio.

RITHOLZ: My special guest this week is Allison Schrager. She is an economist and adjunct professor at NYU, a journalist at Quartz, co-founder of LifeCycle Finance Partners, which is a risk advisory firm. She is also the author of “An Economist Walks into a Brothel and Other Unexpected Places to Understand Risk.”

Allison Schrager, welcome to Bloomberg.

ALLISON SCHRAGER, AUTHOR, AN ECONOMIST WALKS INTO A BROTHEL: Thank you for having me.

RITHOLZ: My pleasure. So let’s talk a little bit about your background. You describe, in the book, making a series of what you later called “risky career decisions,” not exactly sure what you wanted to do. Your assumption was a PhD program in economics; obviously, you’re going to become a professor.

How did that work out?

SCHRAGER: Well, in the end, I think it worked out well for me, but the path was a lot rockier than I would’ve expected. I think, like a lot of people, especially in this day and age, I fell into this idea that more education was just better and it would open up all these doors. And most of time, it does. I think that is normally a good bit, and certainly an economics PhD is a good thing to have in life.

But I had kind of rocky transition when I finished grad school, because I had invested, you know, essentially my whole 20s into learning all these skills and really being cut off from the rest of the world, and then realized what I was investing in was this idea of becoming a professor, and had this realization as I graduated, this is not what I wanted to do at all.

RITHOLZ: So undergrad at Edinburgh –

SCHRAGER: Yes.

RITHOLZ: – a PhD at Columbia University. What sort of thesis were you working on there?

SCHRAGER: Really, even when I was, like, 18, I was always really fascinated by retirement, so my PhD thesis was on risk and retirement. So it was – I started around 2000, so this is as DC plans had really taken a foothold in the market, and I was doing some work in U.K. where they were taking over, so really understanding more deeply the risks in defined contribution versus defined benefit pensions.

RITHOLZ: So eventually, you come to the realization, “Hey, I’m not going to be any sort of professor,” and then you happen to have a job interview with a world-famous Nobel Prize-winning economist Robert Martin. What happened with that?

SCHRAGER: Well, I – as I said, I had this hard realization when I was finishing grad school. I didn’t want to be a professor; I didn’t want to be a government bureaucrat, all the things you’re supposed to do with an economics PhD. So I kind of had this burn it all down, do something new attitude, which also turned out to be helpful for the book.

So I was like, “I’m going to do something fun. I’ve just spent my whole 20s, while everyone else is partying, solving a math problem. So I went to The Economist, unpaid, because this was the early days of web journalism.

RITHOLZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And they would take people who’d never written before to write for the web, back then. And –

RITHOLZ: You get what you pay for, right?

SCHRAGER: Yes. So I was just writing web stuff for The Economist for free with an ecom PhD. and then someone passed my dissertation along to Bob Martin and it turned out retirement was also his main interest. He was working on market solutions to the retirement problem.

RITHOLTZ: So — so let me interrupt you there and ask some questions here because this is really kind of fascinating. You’re wildly overqualified to churn out web based nonsense where you’re not being paid for a website and you know that treat unpaid volunteers not especially well.

And they have the same respect for their content. Who said, I know Allison’s PhD. thesis, let me give this to Bob. He’s busy, he won a Nobel Prize but he’ll like this. How on earth did that come about?

SCHRAGER: A friend of mine who — they had him when he was doing his MBA at Harvard and — because my dissertation was exactly what Bob was doing. Bob was trying to come up with financial models that took the best to (ph) define benefit plans and put them in a divine contribution structure.

And that turns out — you know as said — as much as I said burn it all down, I always had a good dissertation, which thought about risk in a clever way. So once — Bob didn’t know I’d sort of hit bottom career wise.

And you know it just goes to show where some — you feel like something can feel like it totally blew up. I was thinking I just really messed up here. You know I just wasted my — all this time.

And then my paper ended up in front of him. And he was like I really want to do this. He called me in. He’s like if you come work with me I will teach you finance.

RITHOLTZ: Let me tell you when I first was handed a book who’s title was “An Economist Walks into a Brothel,” I’m intrigued. OK. Now your thought is they’re not going in there as a customer or anything like that.

Your thought is what sort of wacky economic data are they getting to be analyzing as an economist looking at the sex trade. It’s a pretty fascinating subject. How did you find your way to Nevada and going to the BunnyRanch?

SCHRAGER: So I wrote a story for courts because I’m — I’ve always been interested in risk. Even as a journalist — you know after I started working with Bob I — before I was a macro economist I became — I learned finance, I’m like everything I know about the economy was wrong.

Risk is a much more rigorous and interesting way to understand the macro economy and every economic problem. So I was apply that in sort of this sort of (inaudible) way as a journalist and I wrote a story about a friend of a friend who was running an online brothel where her value add was screening clients. This is an illegal operation.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: So when you work illegally you have to screen your clients otherwise — especially these were for submissives specifically so they get — they get tied up so they’re particularly vulnerable. So screening has especially important premium.

So she was being paid this premium to screen them. And I was like well this is pretty cool. So I wrote this story about it. It did super well, as you can imagine. And so I got a call from the BunnyRanch saying if you’re going to be writing about brothels, you should be writing about us.

And I was like well I don’t write about brothels but this is an interesting call so I’m going to continue this. And so I was talked to them and they were — I’m like how does this all work. And they’re like well the women come in and every — we don’t set prices, they negotiate every transaction.

And they — (inaudible) he said and I was like well that’s actually very interesting. So you’re telling me you have women who are about 20 years old negotiating with men in their 60s over tens of thousands of dollars.

He’s like yes. And it’s interesting you say that because most of them come here not knowing how to negotiate so we have a negotiation training program.

RITHOLTZ: So the BunnyRanch in Nevada reaches out to you and says hey, if you want to have a conversation about a brothel and about risk and analyzing numbers, come talk to us. What was your thought process when you got this phone call?

SCHRAGER: Well at first I was like, “this isn’t my thing, this isn’t what I am known for — I am a retirement economist.” But when they said the thing about we have a negotiation training program which is something I struggle with too —

RITHOLTZ: Like, you would think a car dealership has a negotiating training program, not a brothel.

SCHRAGER: Or a sales job on Wall Street, you know? And they’re like — and they even said headline, the women here don’t know their value, so we teach them to know their value and to ask for enough.

RITHOLTZ: Right —

SCHRAGER: And I was like, “well I could use that.” So I talked to my editor at Quartz to sending me there to go through their negotiation training program.

RITHOLTZ: Was the immediate reaction, “this is a great story?”

SCHRAGER: Oh yeah, they sent the video crew.

RITHOLTZ: All right, so they were — they were pretty hip that this is funky and — this was freaky before “Freakonomics,” wasn’t this?

SCHRAGER: “Freakonomics,” was already out but it —

RITHOLTZ: Oh, OK.

SCHRAGER: But it took it to another level because I don’t think Steve Levitt spent a lot of time in brothels.

RITHOLTZ: No, he focused young drug dealers in the inner-city and other similarly freaky stuff, but this is like right up his alley for sure. So you get to the Bunny Ranch, how receptive were the women to speaking to you about all these sorts of economic-related issues of salary and compensation and negotiation?

SCHRAGER: In the beginning some were very wary, some were very open. But once you get talking to them they open up. Because I think a lot of people go there, they don’t really take them seriously as businesswomen —

RITHOLTZ: OK.

SCHRAGER: And Dennis when he was alive —

RITHOLTZ: This is the guy who was running the Bunny Ranch?

SCHRAGER: Yes. Really had a lot of good business training going on and the women there are great business women and they’re proud of what they know. So once you get them talking about that they do open up because this is a special skill a lot of them have learned, and a skill honestly I think most people could learn on their jobs (ph) and they don’t.

RITHOLTZ: So how to value the worth of your own work products relative to the marketplace and relative to customer on the other side of the desk from you?

SCHRAGER: And how to ask for it — how to feel comfortable. Especially — it’s an interesting negotiation because you have to — negotiation can be very fraught —

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And afterward you’re going to have this very intimate encounter with this person.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: So making that transition — which is — I mean, a more exaggerating version —

RITHOLTZ: Silicon Valley calls that the pivot.

SCHRAGER: It’s a more exaggerated version of what we all do, right? Like, we have to negotiate with someone and then we have to work with them.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: So this is just that on steroids.

RITHOLTZ: And so, what is the secret? What do they do that’s somewhat different than — what did they teach you that you didn’t know going in to this?

SCHRAGER: I think I always saw negotiation as very adversarial and what learned is how to make it not so — how to just put a bunch of things out there, which apparently is a negotiation technique.

RITHOLTZ: Here’s a menu, choose A, B, or C.

SCHRAGER: Yeah.

RITHOLTZ: That’s really interesting.

SCHRAGER: And therefore — then it’s not adversarial, it’s just “hey, everyone feels like they’re getting what they want.” I’m customizing this experience for you.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: So when I was there I learned a lot about pricing — sex pricing. And something that fascinated me was how much more they could charge than the illegal market.

RITHOLTZ: And now, the assumption is from the John’s point of view — they’re going in to a place where they know the workers have been tested for STDs, they know they’re not going to get mugged or ripped off, they know they’re not going to get arrested — that should be worth some sort of premium, shouldn’t it?

SCHRAGER: I never thought of it that way before, but that was what — always on the lookout for risk —

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: Fascinated me. I mean, the premium is large. When I went — I went back to the brothel for bookwork, and surveyed a lot of the women on their transactions and then it just turned out that this economist I knew scraped all the data from the erotic review (ph), which is Yelp for illegal sex work —

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: So I had 1.2 million illegal (ph) sex transactions, so I had really good data.

RITHOLTZ: Right, that’s a robust dataset. So I was kind of surprised in reading that chapter, that section of the book — the Bunny Ranch, to go to the Bunny Ranch, it’s a couple thousand of dollars per experience. I don’t know what to call it.

SCHRAGER: The median price I found was $1,400 a hour.

RITHOLTZ: That’s a lot of money.

SCHRAGER: Yes. It, you know, especially if you just hire a woman online even for escorting which is more high end I think equivalent to what you get at the Bunny Ranch is $300 – $400 an hour.

RITHOLTZ: That’s all?

SCHRAGER: Yes and you don’t have to go to Nevada.

RITHOLTZ: Yes, but then the risk is $400 but you might get arrested. You might get robbed. Who knows, you might get killed. So it’s worth a premium one would argue and you effectively do that in “An Economist Walks into a Brothel” that what you’re paying is – you’re paying an insurance premium to eliminate all the risks associated with the legal sex for hire transactions.

SCHRAGER: And on the other side too because you think these women, they’re getting so much money but they’re really not.

RITHOLTZ: Now what’s the payout to the woman relative to average, let’s call it $1,500 average, they’re getting what? You wrote about half goes to them?

SCHRAGER: Well not even. Half goes to the brothel. So they have to give 50 percent of their cut to the brothel.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And then they’re legal sex workers, right? So they’re 1099 employees.

RITHOLTZ: So there’s self employment tax. You got to cover that.

SCHRAGER: Yes. I mean these are high earners. They’re making you know probably at least a hundred grand a year.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: So I mean a lot of them don’t live in Nevada so they might have state income taxes on top of it all, so we’re talking 30 to 40 percent after taxes.

RITHOLTZ: So do they do an IRA or a Keogh? They have to have some sort of retirement plan set up?

SCHRAGER: A lot of them do. Dennis(ph) had really good financial planners coming in giving very good financial (inaudible). Like I was talking to these women who came from households where no one had a bank account. They were like I didn’t even know what a credit score was and then they’re telling me, “Oh yes, my IRA is on index funds. Why pay the fees for active.”

RITHOLTZ: That’s just – that’s just hilarious. I have a million – a million horrific puns and I’m not going to touch a single one of them. Wait, so you’re saying they were passive investors, not active. Is that – is that what you’re saying. They were indexers right?

SCHRAGER: They are all indexers.

RITHOLTZ: That’s hilarious. That’s really hilarious. So what was the single most surprising thing that you came away from the Bunny Ranch with having interviewed all these professional legal sex workers?

SCHRAGER: The most surprising thing – I mean it sounds almost patronizing and I knew they’d be smart but I was shocked at how much I learned from them about business, about negotiation and about risk.

RITHOLTZ: So more than just smart, savvy.

SCHRAGER: Very savvy.

RITHOLTZ: Let’s talk a little bit about risk because I think different people think of risk differently. How — how can you define what risk is for the average person?

SCHRAGER: Well I think of risk – I think of it as an estimate of all the different things that could happen and how probable they are. As I said, it’s very technical definition.

RITHOLTZ: Let me ask you the same question a little bit differently then since you run a firm who’s got the words “life cycle” in its name. How does risk change over the course of a person’s lifetime?

SCHRAGER: Well…

RITHOLTZ: You have career risks, you have academic risks, you have retirement risks. I mean there has to be a million different points in one’s life where the risks that are presented to you are very different with different ramifications.

SCHRAGER: Totally. And how we are able to deal with risk and understand risk and how risk adverse we are can also change over our lifecycle which makes it even more complicated. And you know there’s all this evidence about behavioral biases but there’s also evidence as people get older, those biases tend to be less prevalent.

RITHOLTZ: Really? So is it that we get a little wiser with age or it just matters less?

SCHRAGER: I think we get a little wiser with age. There’s experience — that just as well experience really changes how you perceive risks. Like, once you’ve seen things blow up for you a couple times —

RITHOLTZ: Suddenly you become a little more risk adverse, or a little more aware of the probabilities you face.

SCHRAGER: Or take time to hedge or insure when you take risks.

RITHOLTZ: Let’s talk about that because you have a few chapters in the book on the differences between insurance and hedging. So let’s talk a little bit about hedging. Whether you’re referring to a market perspective or any other perspective, what is hedging and what should the average person use it for?

SCHRAGER: I think of hedging — and this is a distinction that a lot of people don’t — I think isn’t often made very clearly. In fact, I had lunch with the CEO of an insurance firm, who even he kept messing up insurance and hedging. So it’s a very subtle but important difference.

RITHOLTZ: And you make it clear, they’re two very distinct things (ph).

SCHRAGER: They are, and if you draw a picture of what they mean in — on a graph it’s very clear. But intuitively it’s a very hard difference. So I think of hedging as you just take less risk, so in the basic finance world that would be of a risky asset and you have a risk-free asset —

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: So hedging is just putting more of your portfolio in the risk-free asset.

RITHOLTZ: The typical 60-40 stock and bond portfolio, you’re not so much hedging your stocks as you’re removing some risk and putting it in to much lower risk fixed income.

SCHRAGER: Exactly, so you’re hedging your portfolio balance from (inaudible).

RITHOLTZ: So I’ve always thought of hedging as I’m willing to give up some upside and in exchange reduce my downsides.

SCHRAGER: That’s exactly it — so if you — is it — instead (ph) of 60-40 you do 50-50 that’s less upside if stocks do well —

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: But also less downside risk if stocks crash.

RITHOLTZ: Or conversely I’ll own XYZ stock and I’ll marry a put-to-it (ph) and that protects — it costs me something, cost me a couple of percent. But hey, if the stocks falls out of bed, the put should cover some percentage of most of that downside. SCHRAGER: Yeah, the way I usually think of puts is like, insurance.

RITHOLTZ: A little bit more insurance, as I was saying. So now let’s talk about insurance. How do you think of insurance? What does — purpose does insurance serve?

SCHRAGER: So insurance is a little different, so rather than giving up upside, what you’re doing is your paying someone a fee — so you give up that amount of upside (ph) but it’s a set amount and you eliminate downside risk.

RITHOLTZ: So a predetermined cost and what you’re purchasing is putting that risk, or eliminating that risk from yourself, putting it on to someone else.

SCHRAGER: In a specific state of the world, yeah —

RITHOLTZ: OK.

SCHRAGER: So it’s insurance (ph), which is if X happens, if this stock goes above the strike price, then I get something.

RITHOLTZ: So I’ve never owned a car where I did not have at one point in the ownership of that car, some piece of gravel or rock come up on our local crappy highways here in New York and either ding or crack the windshield.

So once I could start affording it, I always get glass insurance on the car, and I have replaced literally every single windshield I have ever owned, is that a good use of insurance, or am I just padding their profits and wasting money?

SCHRAGER: It sounds like it. I mean, if you’re claiming it.

RITHOLTZ: Well, but you know — a car you have three, four, five years at least — and you’re paying whatever it is $100. I guess what I’m really paying for is hey, I don’t know if I have to worry about whether or not I break a window — somebody else is responsible for that. Is that a fair definition of insurance, even though you’re paying a fixed amount that stress and worry goes away?

SCHRAGER: Exactly, because now the stress of breaking the window is on the insurance company. I mean, you have to still go through the rigmarole of replacing it, but the financial risk is borne by someone else.

RITHOLTZ: So let’s talk a little bit about the book and some of the other things you describe outside of the Bunny Ranch. You spoke to a number of poker players who had some kind of surprising statistics

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RITHOLTZ: Recover from that loss.

SCHRAGER: Only when you’re down and this is the interesting, you know, sort of deviation from what economist normally think is when you’re down you’ll talk that extra risk to get back.

RITHOLTZ: So tell us a little bit about how we should be thinking about risk in the stock market?

SCHRAGER: Well, actually I mean my background to approach risk is from financial economics, which is the study of the stock market. I think in a lot of ways the stock market’s the perfect place to think about risk because you just have so much data.

And what financial markets are doing is just finding ways to price and move risk around. So I think anyone who is in the stock market is someone who’s naturally thinking about risk all the time.

RITHOLTZ: And — and we’re making more data every day. Don’t we?

SCHRAGER: Yes, I think — again, you — you do get people who get away from — you know as I said if they’re down they — you know there’s all this evidence that people won’t sell losers but they’ll sell winners.

And you know how — you know that’s usually not a good idea. If a stock’s going down, it might — probably will keep going down as opposed to why would you sell your winners and keep a loser. But that’s supposed to be some version — loss aversion people think.

RITHOLTZ: So there was a study that had come out towards the end of 2018 that had looked at portfolio managers and rather than compare them to a benchmark, what they did instead was let’s — instead of selling what the portfolio manager sold, we’re going to randomly sell anything else from their portfolio and then compare and see how they did.

And it turned out that random sales outperformed manager sales by 100 basis points over the next year. Now when they looked at what was being sold they found two broad categories that accounted for most of the underperformance.

One is stocks that had gone up a lot and therefore were benefitting from momentum. Managers had a tendency to sell those but also stocks that had collapsed a lot, rather than selling them when they were small losers they waited till they were giant losers and effectively had become devalue plays and they were selling them.

And those two categories were determined to be the behavior areas that we’re — we’re driving portfolio loses. So all that aside, let’s — let’s think of — of the stock market in terms of individual investors embracing of risk.

Are most people overly invested in the stock market and are they embracing too much risk or do you perceive the (inaudible) — do you perceive risk amongst individual investors as just not taking enough of it especially in the early stages of a market and not embracing it until the very latter stages of the market?

SCHRAGER: I think it’s hard to say. I mean the rate stock allocation really depends on an individual and where they are in their lifecycle. I think people don’t appreciate — a lot of people don’t appreciate how risky the stock market is.

Like my mother is nearing retirement and she expects her portfolio to like double every year. And I’m like sure but you’re going to have to take on a lot or risk for that to happen. And she doesn’t seem to internalize that if you want more return that comes with something.

And you know and stocks are a great investment. They’re a great way — especially an index fund to get risk exposure cheaply and efficiently.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: But you know — you know there’s no guarantees.

RITHOLTZ: So we noticed that when the housing markets are booming, people have this same overly optimistic expectations about how fast their home prices are appreciating. I’m assuming your mom is not a big bit coin investor. Why does she think her stock — her portfolio should double every year given long term returns between 8 and 10 percent?

SCHRAGER: Well, to some degree it’s also you know errors in how we perceive risk. I mean I think people often assume there’s serial correlation where there is none. So if the housing prices have gone up the last 20 years, people assume they’ll stay doing that. I think people also make that assumption around interest rates that you know they’ve been nothing but go down for the last 30 years.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: So I know it’s questionable if they can keep doing that because how negative can yields get?

RITHOLTZ: So this was kind of an interesting aspect of the book that resonated with me personally because we’re always trying to teach clients to think about portfolios in terms of a way that’s easily understandable. And if you say to somebody, “hey there’s a 70,” or here there’s a lot of software that can project you out to retirement. There’s 95 percent probability that you’ll hit your retirement goals, assuming inflation stays under 4 percent and you continue making your regular contributions.

I don’t know what a 95 percent confidence interval does for most people, but if you were to say to them, “hey, in 19 out of 20 situations we can show you — you’ll hit your target goals. It’s only 1 out of 20 that you don’t make it.” Why is that so much easier to understand than percentile?

SCHRAGER: Yeah, well I’m not a psychologist but the research psychologist I spoke to has said just something about the way our brains are programmed is frequencies just resonate with us more. We are —

RITHOLTZ: So 19 out of 20 is a better phrase than 95 percent?

SCHRAGER: Yes, and it makes a big difference. Because we are programmed as humans, we’re not like, complete like — supposed to be disasters with risk. Risk is something that humans have been facing as long as we’ve been on the Earth. But probabilities are a fairly modern invention. They only really came along on the renaissance with a lot of sort of brainy people.

RITHOLTZ: Right, Bernoli (ph) and a whole run of different folks —

SCHRAGER: Yeah I’m just calling all these people. So I mean it’s not surprising that we aren’t just born having this natural intuitive sense of probabilities. I mean, we both work in this area all the time, and they often don’t mean that much to me either.

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RITHOLTZ: So for the average person how best should we quantify risk?

SCHRAGER: Well you want to — as you say convert it, if you’re thinking — except when I defined risk to you, and I was like it’s all the things that you can measure happening that probably are (ph) — that is a probability distribution.

It’s a whole distribution of things that aren’t intuitive to us. So I mean, part me of (ph) is sort of getting more comfortable with those concepts — but it’s also when you think of probabilities converting them to frequencies.

RITHOLTZ: The book was really interesting, it reads really well. It’s sort of like — like, as I started reading it I immediately thought of “Against the Gods,” because it’s also so risk-focused. But from a historical perspective this is really a 21st Century perspective on risk.

SCHRAGER: I love “Against the Gods,” it was my favorite book. And I was actually partially inspired by that because as much as I love it, I wouldn’t say everyone wants to read it, I mean it’s a —

RITHOLTZ: Oh no, everybody should read that book, it’s amazing.

SCHRAGER: Everyone should, but not a lot of people will. I mean, it is dense.

RITHOLTZ: He is a very detailed writer, and every page is filled with lots and lots of stuff. Which is why P.S. if you go back and reread it 20 years later it’s still fresh, and — I mean, that is a masterwork.

SCHRAGER: It’s beautiful. I mean, I love everything about that book and I also love “Capital Ideas,” I like his — everything he’s done. But you know, your mom’s —

RITHOLTZ: Peter Bernstein (ph) you’re talking about.

SCHRAGER: You know, your mom’s probably not going to read it — and I felt like everyone needs to know what’s in “Against the Gods,” and that’s partially what inspired this book is I wanted to take those ideas that were so resonant and I felt everyone needed to understand, and make them accessible to an even broader audience.

RITHOLTZ: So obviously the whole BunnyRanch Brothel section is hilarious and must have been a ton of fun to do. What else did you do in your research that was kind of fun and — and surprising?

SCHRAGER: It was all fun and surprising. I had — I had — I mean I was afraid to write a book for a long time because my dissertation was such a horrible slog.

RITHOLTZ: See, I think of my book as — as my PhD. dissertation and it was a horrible slog.

SCHRAGER: I think maybe you have to do that first big research project. It just has to be horrible.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: So I was like if I’m going to do this I’m going to have a lot of fun, which was the other way I wanted to approach the book. So I just was like I’m going to have all these adventures. It’s an excuse to go places. I went to a risk conference for big wave surfers in Hawaii.

RITHOLTZ: Right. That was a whole fascinating segment. The guys who invented jet skiing their way on to 80 foot waves. Before you couldn’t even get on — on to a 50 foot wave. You just weren’t able to get out there fast enough. What was that like? You spoke to some really interesting big surf names.

SCHRAGER: Yes. And you know they have these — this regular conference where they talk about risk and it’s like going to a pension risk conference, although everyone’s you know better looking and tanner.

RITHOLTZ: Right. Everyone’s tan and blonde. Right.

SCHRAGER: Yes. Like I was in the worst shape in the room. But you know it is — it is a conference where they’re very thoughtful about risk and debating regulatory function and who bares the responsibility of risk when your behavior impacts other people.

And you know it was an intellectual discussion as I’ve seen anywhere. And the guy who I profile, Brian Keaulana, is the one who brought jet skis to big wave surfing. And much like a lot of financial derivatives initially supposed to be insurance.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: But as you mentioned, you can also use them to lever up and take on more risk and take even bigger waves because anything that can reduce risk can also be flipped around to exacerbate risk.

RITHOLTZ: We — we see a plateauing and even an increase in the annual automobile fatality rates. And the discussion in your book and elsewhere has been well, how much of the confidence that people feel about airbags and crumble zones and — and antilock brakes is leaving them to drive faster and engage in more dangerous behavior without these safety provisions. What — what are your thoughts on that?

SCHRAGER: Yes, well I mean that is I felt like an important thing to include in any book on risk telling you how to — how there’s all these tools that can reduce your risk because then you have to be mindful of not feeling so safe that you can then go and take whatever risk you want.

Because nothing makes the world truly risk. You know we’re all — risk is all still an estimate of something that’s immeasurable. So you know and you’re — you’re basing your risk strategy on something — you know it’s better than doing nothing.

Just because it’s not perfect doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it but you also have to be aware of the limitations. So even if you have every safety device in the world and you’re going to surf an 80 foot wave, it’s still not going to be safe. There’s nothing to make that risk pay (ph).

RITHOLTZ: And — and you specifically refer to a number of big name surfers who died even after or perhaps because of some of these safety innovations being brought in.

SCHRAGER: Yes. And when I went to the big wave surf risk conference, you know they — every innovation resurfaces this issue. Initially it was leashes because …

RITHOLTZ: Which everybody hated when they first came out.

SCHRAGER: Totally. Because — I — I don’t know anything about surfing and I’ve never done it but apparently before there were leashes, if you wiped out you lost your board and you had to swim to shore and that could be maybe 20 miles. So you — like they were like amazing swimmers. Now you can be a pretty mediocre swimmer and still surf the waves (ph).

RITHOLTZ: Right. You’re sending people out who really, if they get into trouble, can’t swim a half mile back to shore.

SCHRAGER: Yes. And then it was worse with jet skis because now you can have a jet ski you know pushing not only a 80 foot wave but if you only belong in a five foot wave, now you can go in a 20 foot wave. And you pose risk to other people when that happens if you need to be rescued. And now the big debate is on something called these inflatable vest.

RITHOLTZ: Right. When you go under and they don’t always inflate but it gives people a sense that all right, I’m OK, I can do anything now.

SCHRAGER: Yes. And so this — because they’re new and just starting to be sold, I think I mentioned Greg Long, this famous surfer, whose inflatable vest didn’t open, that was — I think he had sort of an early version. But now they’re being widely sold and this is really tearing up the surf community of who should be allowed to buy these. Is it irresponsible to allow anyone to have these vests?

RITHOLTZ: So in other words, we don’t want to give people a false sense of confidence, send down an amateur with no skills and minimal swimming ability out into a dangerous area, and they feel because they have this inflatable vest, that they can surf with the big boys, so to speak.

SCHRAGER: But then the flip side to that is, this is potentially a piece of technology. Are you going to deny people buying it? I mean, it’s — there aren’t easy answers to this, which is why there’s so much debate. But you know, if you go to a finance conference and you debate systemic risk, there are no easy answers there either.

RITHOLTZ: What else do you recall from your research that was, if not quite as buff, really interesting and surprising? Because you cover a lot of ground in your book.

SCHRAGER: I’ve had (ph) horse breeding.

RITHOLTZ: That was kind of fascinating also.

SCHRAGER: Yes, again, I kind of went after things I didn’t really have much knowledge of before. I’ve never been like, a horsey person — I wasn’t like one of these little girls who rode horses.

RITHOLTZ: I was.

SCHRAGER: So I didn’t realize after 1986, the tax reform changed the whole dynamics of horse breeding and the economics of horse breeding.

RITHOLTZ: And all sorts of other (inaudible) as these things had been devised as a way to hide money from Uncle Sam, and suddenly, now they have to stand on their own feet. They can’t just be a foe (ph) investment.

SCHRAGER: Exactly. So the fact that there’s less return to long term capital gains and they want to realize the return from their risk earlier, means now that everyone sells a horse when its one year, when they don’t have to feed information about how good a racer it’s going to be. The only information you have is who its parents are. So this has led to this increase in in-breeding.

RITHOLTZ: So we have all these horses that are sprinters, not long distance runners, because that’s the first thing that will show and that will help sell a one year old horse. It seems like the incentives are kind of weird and not properly aligned.

SCHRAGER: No, because what you really want is, you want a horse — well actually, the real money in horses is not winning races, it’s from the breeding, the stud piece (ph). But a good race career is necessary for that. But none of those things are necessarily correlated with — there’s been studies on this — on the prices that you sell for as a year old yearling.

RITHOLTZ: So as I was reading through the whole horse section, and I rode in college, so I was kind of fascinated by that; I’m not a fan of horse racing and betting, but I enjoy riding, I was reminded of a book I read 100 years ago by William Goldman who was the screenwriter Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Princess Bride and Marathon Man — his screen list are insane. And his book was called Adventures in the Screen Trade, but a quote of his that I’ve used repeatedly when writing about markets is, nobody knows anything. And he refers to all the studios that passed on Star Wars, all the studios that wanted nothing to do with Raiders of the Lost Ark.

And he uses example after example after example of these people who are supposed to be in the film industry, and they’re throwing darts. And I’m reading your write-up about the various horses that later go on to story career, that were picked up for pennies because nobody recognized their value, and all of these very story-stud married to these mares who were great runners, and the horses, nobody — they don’t win anything, they don’t — so is it the same sort of situation –

SCHRAGER: It is.

RITHOLZ: – when it comes to horse breeding? Nobody knows anything?

SCHRAGER: Well, I think it’s that the incentives are kind of – are off. So what people – when they breed a horse, they’re looking for something that’s going to sell after one year, which is very difficult from a horse that’s going to win a Kentucky Derby.

RITHOLZ: You would think that there’s so much money in winning these big races that at least some subsection of the breeding community would say, “Hey, if you want to buy a horse to sell in a year, don’t come to us. We’re trying to breed triple-crown competitive racers.” How come that hasn’t happened?

SCHRAGER: Well, to some degree, you’re right, that it is just impossible to know. I mean you’re getting more information now with technology because you’re able to do the genetic profiling of the horses, which gives you some information. Like, you can tell, you know, I guess, the horses that are best suited for a Kentucky Derby or sort of these hybrid half-sprinter, half-distance runners.

RITHOLZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And you can test for that.

RITHOLZ: Right. You also referenced – and there’s a really fascinating story, I’m trying to remember where I saw it, about the size of one of the ventricles in the horse’s heart.

SCHRAGER: Yes.

RITHOLZ: You referenced they’re looking for horses with, not metaphysical, that horse that has heart, but genuine larger cardiac pumps.

SCHRAGER: Yes, although you have to be careful, because every – you know, a horse, it’s like everything to be, like, a racer, sort of this freakish combination of factors have to come together. It’s like being a Nobel Prize-winning supermodel. It’s like you just need all these genetic components in perfect alignment.

RITHOLZ: That’s the – I’m sure it’s an urban myth, but the Einstein/Marilyn Monroe –

SCHRAGER: Yes.

RITHOLZ: – back and forth, you may not get the qualities you want from each of the sires of the horse.

SCHRAGER: Yes, you may get the worse qualities of both. So you know, if you get – I feel (ph) this one guy explained to me, “It’s like getting like that perfect heart in the wrong horse. It could be like having the dimension for a Ferrari in a Subaru (ph).” So it’s really hard to predict.

So this is why that chapter’s about modern portfolio theory.

RITHOLZ: Right. By the way, that is the Subaru WRX. They’ve done that, and it’s been a very successful car.

SCHRAGER: I don’t anything about cars.

RITHOLZ: So – but that was really – that was really a fascinating discussion, and I really enjoyed that. Last question about the book: Anything else sort of stood out as “wow that was really weird and unusual that I was not expecting?”

SCHRAGER: You know, there was – every chapter sort of, I guess, had those moments. I mean there was certainly when – the time I spent following around the paparazzi, where I’m like –

RITHOLZ: Also, a fascinating story.

SCHRAGER: – “This is weird,” you know? I was telling someone, it’s like – as I’m like crouching behind a garbage can, waiting for Alec Baldwin, I’m like, “This is just not what I expected when I went to grad school,” you know, “to end up here of all places.” But you know, again, they also have a fascinating risk story that’s going on behind the scenes.

You would never know, because, as you can imagine, they face just crazy amounts of idiosyncratic risk. The risk that you’re going to get that one money shot and any one day is so large, they have to form these complex alliances to share tips and sometimes royalties. Essentially it’s pooling, so you’re getting rid of your idiosyncratic risk, but because all the money in celebrity photography has been getting an exclusive, they also have this incentive to always cheat.

So these alliances are inherently very unstable. So they’re reforming and breaking up these alliances, so they all hate each other. So this is something, you see the paparazzi on the street and you’re like, “This is much more interesting story that’s going on with this lineup of paparazzi than you would ever know.”

RITHOLZ: Then – the paparazzi are more interesting than a catching a celebrity that takes their kid out for ice cream?

SCHRAGER: Yes, they’d always be surprised, because they’d (ph) wait for these celebrities for, like, six or eight hours. And after like maybe an hour or two, I’ll just get bored and I’m like, “Well, I’ve had a good story here. I’m going to go home.” And they’d be shocked. They’re like, “But Gigi hasn’t appeared yet.” I’m like, “Well, I’m here for you.”

RITHOLZ: The supermodel, Gigi, who was friends with somebody else – one of the Kardashians.

SCHRAGER: Kendall Jenner.

RITHOLZ: Yes, that’s how suddenly she blew up on Instagram.

SCHRAGER: Yes, well, the celebrities who do well the paparazzi also play the game with them.

RITHOLTZ: Huh, quite interesting. You also have been writing regularly on Vox for some time —

SCHRAGER: Of course.

RITHOLTZ: And some of the columns you’ve done sort of tangentially involve risk in surprising ways. So everybody today is focused on the Amazon HQ2 disaster that blew up earlier this year. But you looked at it from the context of the U.S. has a talent problem, and that presents a risk to corporations — explain that.

SCHRAGER: Well, so — this is as the Richard Florida (ph) argument, that you need — you know — any way you think anyone would want to work for Amazon, they still — the — the competition for sort of really good talent is still very stiff and it is — does occur globally.

RITHOLTZ: And we’re talking about engineers and programmers, not necessarily the serfs (ph) that they have enslaved in their warehouses.

SCHRAGER: Yeah the high-skill tech workers, I mean, they’re kings of the labor market.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And they compete a lot of it, which is one of the reasons why Amazon probably wanted to come to New York. It wasn’t just the tax incentives, it was that you could get talent who wanted to move here. It’s really hard to get a cluster of talented young people to want to move to the middle of the country.

RITHOLTZ: And that’s why Brooklyn is so hot these days?

SCHRAGER: Yeah well, and you can see why because if you are talented ��� I mean, human capital is something you have to work towards your whole career. You don’t just go to Harvard and then you’re just set for life, you have to manage a network, you have to keep your skills sharp — and that’s why you want to be around, not just be limited to your own company, be around other people (inaudible) companies that way you keep your skills fresh, you have the option of changing jobs, that’s always a very valuable option.

I mean, if Amazon moved to a place where there were no other good jobs, you’re kind of stuck at Amazon and you give up the option of job-switching —

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: That’s — you have to compensate people for that.

RITHOLTZ: (Inaudible) towns are problematic for that reason.

SCHRAGER: Yeah, I mean it worked before when you had people who were more middle skill, and also back before when you had — technology was such before that the skills you would learn would be very idiosyncratic to the company you worked for.

RITHOLTZ: And now they’re very transferable.

SCHRAGER: Exactly, so if you want to maintain competitively in the labor market, you have to be part of — sort of these clusters of people that allow you to move around.

RITHOLTZ: And Google announced their doubling their New York workforce from 7,000 to 14,000. Apple has dramatically expanded its presence. So if you’re an Amazon worker theoretically in New York they’re competing for your skills with some of the biggest companies in the world.

SCHRAGER: Yeah but — and you know, they don’t like that. I used to work for a company that was far outside my cluster and they kept trying to get me to move there, and I’m like, “but you’re asking me to give up a very valuable option, you’re going to have to compensate me for it.” That never really resonated with them, but it seems counterintuitive that Amazon would want to be closer to their job competition, but it’s also what they need to do to attract talent.

RITHOLTZ: It’s why cities haven’t disappeared despite the best predictions of people half a century ago. What about — I thought this was an interesting headline, “What is the real reason people regret not saving more?”

SCHRAGER: Risk. So people think about saving as something that they’re going to often — or something that’s going to happen in the future that they want to do. But when they looked at people at the end of their life or in retirement, the reason why they think they wish — had more money, they don’t wish they could have gone on better vacations when they retired, they wished they could have had a better lifestyle — it was, I didn’t realize that divorce would blow all my savings.

RITHOLTZ: Right, it’s not a luxury goal, it’s a hey, things happen that are just unexpected and I failed to plan for that.

SCHRAGER: Yeah, and people — I mean, like $400 for emergency saving figure is a little controversial, but I don’t think it is a stretch to say people really don’t make emergency savings enough of a priority.

RITHOLTZ: Right, that’s pretty fair. Let’s talk about charities, what’s the best way to get people to donate to charity?

SCHRAGER: So I think it was John List who I mentioned earlier did a study of — of Alaska. You know Alaska is just ripe for a lot of economic studies because they get the dividend payment.

RITHOLTZ: From the — from all the oil reserves that they’re selling to or licensing and leasing out to the big public oil companies.

SCHRAGER: Yes, so they have a program where you can give some of that money to charity. And they had — they did a study where you — yes, they came with a card and one said you know warm you heart, the other is like improve Alaska, and the other just was nothing. And they found the warm the heart group donated the most and were most likely to donate.

RITHOLTZ: So in other words they made the charitable donation about the person as opposed to the recipient.

SCHRAGER: Exactly.

RITHOLTZ: So appeal — appeal to ego. So over the past year or two we’ve gone through this giant Me Too Movement and I know that amongst my colleagues we’ve had debates about what do you do with an artist who turns out to be a less than nice guy.

And the Michael Jackson HBO documentary just came out. I have yet to see it but I know Michael Jackson fans are kind of split. Some are defending him and others are a little bereft. I was always a big fan of Louis C. K., not happy with — with what he did.

Go down the list. You know it ranges from offensive to criminal and everything in between. You raised the question what do you do when a brilliant economist is accused of sexually harassing his research assistance. So what’s the solution?

SCHRAGER: Well, I — I don’t know because the thing about — I was writing about Roland Fryer who’s been accused but not found guilty.

RITHOLTZ: But there — he’s been accused by a number of his research assistants, some of whom have credibly claimed that he thwarted their careers for their refusing to succumb to his charms.

SCHRAGER: So which is hard …

RITHOTLZ: Which is a terrible way to say it.

SCHRAGER: This is terrible. But — and in his — what he always defended himself with and this is a valid point, although it doesn’t excuse his behavior in any way is I do research that’s socially critical.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And he was the economist who was leading the charge of understand why a lot of minority students don’t do well in school. So this is …

RITHOLTZ: It’s important but what does it have to do with whether or not he’s a pig.

SCHRAGER: So here’s the question, is if someone’s doing research that’s socially important or suppose they’re on the verge of a cure for cancer and we find out their a pig, you know do we — should they still have a career. You know if there’s all these other positive externalities for society.

RITHOLTZ: I could — so you just had the bishop six years prison sentence in Australia. You can see throughout history that the powerful will say look, there have been some bad behavior but we’re literally doing God’s work and therefore we should be exempt from this.

You know pick a person. John Lennon was supposed to be a bit of a hard ass and you don’t want to go through the history of literature to find out how big a jerk half the writers out there are.

If we — but — and then artists and paintings and things like that, if we’re going to have a moral purity test on that stuff, your museums will be empty and they’ll be nothing on the airwaves.

However, it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t suffer the ramifications from — so should we separate the value of the art from the artist, but that doesn’t give them a free pass in their career.

SCHRAGER: Not at all. And I — I didn’t honestly know the answer so I spoke to a philosopher which was just — I love talking to philosophers because they always remind you you know nothing about anything.

And he pointed out that if you are doing important work, like scientific works by either economics or like hard science and you’re on the verge of really making the world important is actually the more — the pressure on you to behave well is even higher because you’re letting down — especially no good work happens alone. You’re letting down everyone’s effort, and it’s — not everyone gets the opportunity and resources to perform research like this. And so if you’re threatening it with your behavior, actually, you should be held to an even higher standard.

RITHOLTZ: So the question is, according to the philosopher then, once this bad behavior is identified, do you stop the person from doing research, or do you just put a higher level of H.R. scrutiny and sit that person down and say, you are putting millions of people’s lives at risk because you’re this close to a cure for cancer, and if you keep your hands off your research assistant, here’s what’s going to happen. I mean, how do you — how do you resolve that?

SCHRAGER: Well, he was more in favor of just jettisoning them. I — I — I…

RITHOLTZ: Jettisoning the assistants?

SCHRAGER: No, the researcher.

RITHOLTZ: The philosopher said, just fire the guy, or whoever it is.

SCHRAGER: Yes, he’s like, we need to have standards, and as he said, yes might have — we might have a longer wait for a cure for cancer, but what about the behavior all along? Maybe somebody could have come up with a cure for cancer even earlier and he discouraged them, and maybe we’d had cancer cure 15 years ago.

RITHOLTZ: His behavior. So — so you can’t use that as an excuse, bad behavior has to be punished because you don’t know what sort of — that’s a — I love a classic counter-faction, that’s a perfect one. Last one before we get to our favorite questions — actually there are two here that are fascinating. Let’s start with this one. Are millennials the wealthiest generation?

SCHRAGER: They could be. I think — you know, I’m tired…

RITHOLTZ: Eventually, maybe. But today, they certainly don’t feel that way.

SCHRAGER: Well, I’m a life-cyclist. So when I think about wealth…

RITHOLTZ: Is that like (inaudible)?

SCHRAGER: I think about all your assets. So I think of human capital, which in life-cycle economics, is the value of your future earnings.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: So for me, the idea that people don’t — millenials don’t own houses, and instead they have student debt, doesn’t seem to me like they’ve made a huge investment in their future earnings. And education, it’s not perfect, is correlated with much higher lifetime earnings.

RITHOLTZ: True, but the issue that they appropriately, you were at NYU, it’s the most expensive tuition in America, $63,000 or something a single year. I went to a state school, I went to Stony Brook, my tuition was $450 a semester. Even today it’s like $5,000 a semester, which seems like a bargain. Students today are paying prices for education that are just so vastly out of whack with what they were like 40, 50, 60 years, or even 25 years ago. It was much, much cheaper relative to the total cost of living to go to school. So are they going to get the same return on their investment in education, or have things just completely run amuck (ph)?

SCHRAGER: Well, definitely they’re getting — well, it’s hard to say; I mean, we can’t predict the future. I mean, so far, it does seem — I mean, I’m not sure if there’s much value in going to a $60,000 school over Stony Brook, probably you’re — you’re going to do just as well going to a good public school.

RITHOLTZ: P.S., I couldn’t get into Stony Brook today with my grades back then. I was in a little bit of a valley between the Boomers and the Gen-Xers and the same thing with grad school, I couldn’t get into grad school — to my grad school Y.U., that I got into way back when. So some of it is just dumb luck when you’re born, but the other aspect is, what — what sort of return are these current graduates — what should they expect going forward. Explain why you say potentially they’re the wealthiest generation.

SCHRAGER: Well, I think when people look at the outcome from education; they are too short-sighted. Because you don’t — like, I mean, I didn’t enter the labor market like really officially until I finished grad school. I was almost 30.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And my earnings — well actually my first job was unpaid, you know weren’t that great. But we were looking — when you think of the pay off from human capital, it’s your lifetime earnings. And often out of school you’re going earn less than someone who didn’t go to college but the trajectory of your earnings is it follows a much steeper path.

RITHOLTZ: So they’ve — they’ve been working for a few years they have a series of raises. You’re staring up below them but you’re going to — as a college or grad student, you’re going to accelerate way pass them.

SCHRAGER: And you also face less risk. I mean the unemployment rates for college grads is much, much lower.

RITHOLTZ: I’m sensing a them with you. I don’t know what it is. So I only have you for another 10 minutes. Let’s jump to my favorite questions. These are what we ask all of our guest. Tell us the first car you ever owned; year, make, and model.

SCHRAGER: Well, I’ve never actually technically owned a car but in high school I did drive an 84’ Honda Prelude.

RITHOLTZ: OK. I love that car.

SCHRAGER: It last — it had 200,000 miles, which in the 90s was a really big deal.

RITHOLTZ: That was a little two seater. They were — you couldn’t — you couldn’t destroy them.

SCHRAGER: It was great.

RITHOLTZ: It wasn’t the fastest car in the world. You could get them with a stick shift which was nice back then. That …

SCHRAGER: It was a stick shift.

RITHOLTZ: There you go. So you drive — by the way, today I call stick shifts millennial anti-theft devices because that’s what they effectively are. So what’s the most important thing we don’t know about Allison Schrager?

SCHRAGER: Well you wouldn’t know it from the book title but I’m just really a risk nerd. I mean I guess I don’t know if that’s surprising.

RITHOLTZ: No, that’s not a shocker. I — you read the book and it’s like, this is — it should say Allison Schrager, PhD. risk nerd. So that’s not a big surprise. That you think of yourself as a risk nerd, maybe that’s a surprise.

SCHRAGER: Well, I guess I also — I wasn’t always — like in college I had a job in Alaska selling incense.

RITHOLTZ: Incense in Alaska. Why would they need incense in Alaska, is there that much — you would think of — if anything smells like the great outdoors …

SCHRAGER: Well, it was a fishing village.

RITHOLTZ: Say no more.

SCHRAGER: Yes.

RITHOLTZ: That’s very — that’s very funny. So I know the answer to this but I have to ask who were your early mentors?

SCHRAGER: Obviously Bob Merton.

RITHOLTZ: So tell us a little bit about what he taught you because he’s clearly a fascinating and story person.

SCHRAGER: Well, he just taught me finance, which you know I went to — I did an ecom. PhD. so it wasn’t like I wasn’t exposed to it but my program it was very empirical. So I just thought financial economist just crunched datas looking for a deviations via efficient market hypothesis.

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And I thought it was not very interesting and sort of corrupt. But then when I met Bob and learned what financial theory was, it really turned me on to theory too in a way I was always much more empirically oriented of how to think about the world and how to see the world in terms of a risk lens and how to see risk problems everywhere and how they’re driving all markets, not just financial markets.

RITHOLTZ: So he was really like your post doc work.

SCHRAGER: He was a very sort of long and tense post doc. I had good training as a graduate student too but it sort of readied me to really fully embrace all of his lessons.

RITHOLTZ: So let’s talk about investors and others who influence the way you look at the world of risk who you’d consider to be important thinkers that affected the way you perceive the world.

SCHRAGER: Investors.

RITHOLTZ: Investors or anyone really. You mention Peter Bernstein. Who — who affected the way you perceive the world of risk.

SCHRAGER: Certainly Peter Bernstein. Also I would say that I worked at DFA for a number of years. So David Booth.

RITHOLTZ: When did you work at DFA?

SCHRAGER: 2010 to 2013.

RITHOLTZ: So really that was in fairly — they were already fairly developed and running hundreds of billions of dollars by then.

SCHRAGER: And it was — that was a great experience for me because I was working on a project that they were all very interested in so every two weeks I would have these meetings with Eugene Fama, Ken French, Merton, David Booth, and Eduardo Repetto who was the — and we would just — because we were having to calibrate this very complicated interest rate model I was working on, and we would just debate the path of interest rates. And I learned – and that’s where I learned a lot of my finance, was just seeing Gene and Bob go at it and, you know, with the influences of David Booth, who’s just a real market guy.

RITHOLZ: And this was pre – were you there when Fama won the Nobel or was this before? I think it was –

SCHRAGER: 2014.

RITHOLZ: Yes, something like that.

SCHRAGER: So right before.

RITHOLZ: Quite, quite – that’s some collection of mentors and influencers.

SCHRAGER: It’s interesting because they’re smart in such different ways.

RITHOLZ: So we mentioned “Against the Gods.” What are some of your other favorite books?

SCHRAGER: Well, obviously, anything Peter Bernstein writes, but I also just – love memoirs.

RITHOLZ: Really?

SCHRAGER: Yes.

RITHOLZ: Give us an example.

SCHRAGER: I love “Just Kids” by Patti Smith. I just read “Educated,” which I hate loving popular books, but I really love that.

RITHOLZ: Who wrote “Educated?”

SCHRAGER: Was it Tara Westover?

RITHOLZ: Don’t ask me.

SCHRAGER: Yes, it’s just –

RITHOLZ: That’s outside of my –

SCHRAGER: – so beautifully written.

RITHOLZ: Oh, no kidding? What other memoirs have you read that really resonated with you? By the way, I read two books on vacation, yours was one of them, and McCullough’s “The Wright Brothers” was quite fascinating. If you’re interested in flight and/or – it’s really less of a memoir, more of a biography. All right, skip that.

SCHRAGER: Well –

RITHOLZ: Give us one more book. So you mentioned – you mentioned (inaudible). By the way, this is the question – I get more e-mail about this one (ph). What was that book the president mentioned on – I get more e-mail about this than anything else?

SCHRAGER: It’s a stressful question, because I feel like it’s so personal and revealing, and –

RITHOLZ: Yes, that’s what makes it so good.

SCHRAGER: And especially because I read a lot of crap, because, you know –

RITHOLZ: Do you finish crappy books?

SCHRAGER: You know, when I was doing book research, I had this idea that Kris Jenner was this risk mastermind, because look at what she’s built.

RITHOLZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And I – so I read her biography, thinking maybe I’ll include her, and it turns out she didn’t have a good risk strategy, so I couldn’t.

RITHOLZ: Right place, right time, is that all it was?

SCHRAGER: She takes advantage. I mean –

RITHOLZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And it’s like this extreme level of diversification, where she literally – any opportunity that comes her way, she seizes on it, and she does work hard. There’s nothing like strategic. It’s sort of – it’s sort of, as well, like a Donald Trump thing. It’s like, “Well, if this blows up, I have something else to distract people with because I’ve got 90 gazillion things going.”

So it’s like, “We have our debit card that ripped poor people off, but oh, look, here’s a sex tape,” you know? So – but I remember I was reading her book on the subway, and I had this realization, like, “I’ve never read Anna Karnim (ph), but I’ve read this.”

RITHOLZ: I’m going to say you probably picked the wrong one of the two. Just hypothesizing. All right, so here’s a question that also is personal and probing. Tell us about a time you failed and what you learned from the experience. And by the way, you detailed some personal failures in your book.

SCHRAGER: Oh, yes. I fail a lot.

RITHOLZ: You don’t – you don’t shy away from that.

SCHRAGER: No, I mean my first year of grad school I think I failed almost all my comps. I mean largely because I was doing a quantitative PhD with no math background.

RITHOLZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: And it was the hardest failure I’ve ever gone through, because it was the biggest intellectual achievement I had ever done, which is I taught myself six years worth of math myself, in my free time, my first year of grad school. I never intellectually had growth so much from anything. I never achieved so much. And I still – you know, at the end of the day, you’re still taking a math exam, and you’re being judged against a Korean math champion. No matter how much math you learn quickly, you’re not going to stack up, so you’re going to fail.

RITHOLZ: Meaning the rest of the student was hardcore math people?

SCHRAGER: Yes, and I was just reading math textbooks in my free time, which wasn’t all that much. I wasn’t sleeping; I was just reading, working through entire math textbooks to try to do my homework.

RITHOLZ: That sounds horrible.

SCHRAGER: And yes, it was horrible. I was such an unhappy person. I kind of started developing weird social ticks, and then I went through all of this. Never slept for a year, just working through math textbooks and I still just failed everything. I mean that was –obviously — I was devastated.

RITHOLTZ: I’m going to blame the lack of sleep, because that effects cognitive functioning —

SCHRAGER: You know, it was — like, I had time to — you get to retake them, and when I got to finally rest and have all that knowledge sort of marinate in me, I realized how much I knew. And I mean — I think what I learned from that experience is if you really want something — you know, there’s a point you have to cut loose —

RITHOLTZ: Right.

SCHRAGER: Is you just — you can’t take the first failure. Because no one remembers that you failed your first year exam, all they remember is that you graduated.

RITHOLTZ: That’s an interesting observation. So now let me ask you the flip question, what do you do for fun? What do you do when you’re not failing math exams?

SCHRAGER: I play Bridge.

RITHOLTZ: Really?

SCHRAGER: Yeah.

RITHOLTZ: My mother plays Bridge, my wife plays Bridge — this has become like a giant thing now.

SCHRAGER: I’m part of this great Bridge group of all these intellectuals — there’s a field medal winner at the last one. But (inaudible) it’s a sort of very humble, low-key group.

RITHOLTZ: Really quite interesting. What are you most excited about in the future direction of the risk industry?

SCHRAGER: (Inaudible) technology.

RITHOLTZ: Yeah.

SCHRAGER: I mean, everyone else is sort of scared of it, but I think it’s going to sort of take us to some interesting places.

RITHOLTZ: Interesting, I don’t necessarily disagree. So if a millennial or recent college student came up to you and asked you for career advice about going in to economics, risk, or academia — what sort of advice would you give them?

SCHRAGER: Find the smartest person you can, and attach yourself to them.

RITHOLTZ: It’s funny you say that, that was my father’s advice to me when I went to grad school.

SCHRAGER: Did it work?

RITHOLTZ: More or less — actually it began as joining track in high school, find the fastest guy, keep up with him and then when I went to grad school he said, “hey remember the advice I gave you about track? I’m going to give you the same exact advice — find the smartest,” and I’m like, “dad I’m way ahead of you — I already had thought about that.”

So how does that manifest itself for a millennial or a college graduate, how would they actually go about doing that?

SCHRAGER: Well when you’re in a job — instead of finding the smartest person in the room, and it should never be you — or there’s something wrong. And try to get them to mentor you — and be open to it.

And you know, anyway, contrary to all these perceptions of millennials being know-it-alls, I find that the millennials that I work with are always looking to learn. Maybe I’ve just been lucky.

RITHOLTZ: I don’t know if know-it-alls is the right description. They’re definitely hardworking and they have areas that they have great strengths in, and I think the biggest knock is their weaknesses — they’re not interested in working on.

SCHRAGER: Yeah.

RITHOLTZ: But I think they’ve gotten a bad — having worked with them for five years in a firm, do you think they’ve gotten a bad wrap (ph)?

SCHRAGER: Yeah, I think they’re the same as every other generation. You get some noisy outliers and I think with social media, the noisy outliers voices are amplified —

RITHOLTZ: That’s a great observation.

SCHRAGER: But I think on average they’re just like everyone else.

RITHOLTZ: That makes perfect sense. Although they’re — they grew up in such a unique — like, think about what you grew up in and then what people born 10 or 20 years after you grown up in.

Technology is this thing that’s kind of cool on the side — they’re immersed in it from birth, it’s a whole different headspace.

SCHRAGER: It’s a whole — yeah, I mean it’s very different. And their brains probably formed differently to some degree. But again — and again, I think ultimately even college students, the ones I’ve interacted with from teaching are also really open to debate in new ideas, and even uncomfortable ideas. Again, it’s just the noisy outliers.

RITHOLTZ: That’s quite fascinating. And our final question, what do you know about the world of risk and economics today, that you wish you knew 15, 20 years ago when you were just graduating?

SCHRAGER: Well that’s when I was starting grad school and you know I chose macro. And macro traditionally has not incorporated risk at all. I didn’t realize how fundamental that it was to the economy.

I thought you know I was studying sort of either the neoclassical, Keynesian, or new Keynesian models where you know if you do government spending this is what happens where if I was doing finance I would think of how does that impact markets, what are the range of things that happen. So I — I wish I knew about risk because I didn’t really.

RITHOLTZ: So I’m shocked to even hear that. I don’t have an economics background, it’s just I play an economist on T.V. How — how is it possible that macroeconomics does not incorporate any analysis the (ph) study of risk. That seems shocking.

SCHRAGER: It is. It is actually — you know people don’t talk about this because other things get attention but I just went to a conference two or three weeks ago that Lars Hansen and Andy Lo put on about how can we incorporate finance into macro.

How can we put risk into macro models. And I think this was amongst academics the big take away from the financial crisis that a lot of macro models have no meaningful role for financial sectors so how are you even going to capture systemic risk.

So this is really where like hardcore economist (inaudible) they’ve been working on post crisis and it’s a hard problem because any economic model has to make choices and once you bring risk in, they get more complicated.

It is a controversial thing to say — I mean not going to sound sexy to most people but to a small group of economist is I now feel strongly, although I don’t think anyone agrees with me that finance — basic finance should be part of basic economic straining because it is such a fundamental part of understanding how the economy works.

RITHOLTZ: Meaning basic finance plus an understanding of risk.

SCHRAGER: Well, yes. Well you — you get a basic understanding of risk if you learn finance because finance is all the principles of risk because finance and economics is just how economist study risk. It just happens to be in financial markets because that’s where the data is. So I think it should be undergraduate macro/micro finance.

RITHOLTZ: Quite fascinating. We have been speaking to Allison Schrager. She is the author of “An Economist Walks into a Brothel,” as well as co-founder of the LifeCycle Financial Partners and an Adjunct professor at NYU and journalist at Quartz.

END

  Transcript: Allison Schrager

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[outropeace]

Hey Andy!! This is the fic piece thing based on my friend’s parents that I just wrote a bit of. This is my first time ever doing this so i’m a bit nervous, but let me know what you think!!

–

“Louis, for the love of God - you look fine. Get. In. The fucking. Car.” Zayn’s irritated eyes glare at Louis as he fixed his tie in his friend’s rearview mirror.

“Sorry, sorry,” Louis pleads as he adjusts the knot for the umpteenth time. “I just want to make sure this all goes well, you know?”

“Babe, they love you already. If I remember correctly, they were basically begging for you on the spot once you turned in your CV.” Louis smirks to himself. Zayn notices and raises his eyebrows. “Now can you please get in the damn car? You and I both don’t want to be late.”

Not to brag, but Louis knows it’s true — the moment that Garner Williams Hospital had received his application, the board of directors offered Louis the position of Corporate Secretary with zero hesitation and a salary raise. Honestly, he felt like he deserved it; after constant and grueling studying that (rightfully) placed him at the top of his classes throughout his undergrad and masters, to working his way up the job ladder from one company to next, and now finally at Garner Williams, Louis at a worn 26 finally feels like his hard and tireless work has paid off.

He looks at Zayn and grins, comforted in the fact that he’ll get to be around his best friend from birth. He couldn’t believe he’s had him at his side throughout his childhood, college, and now his job — how many people could say that about their best friend? If it weren’t for Zayn — Dr. Malik, the neurosurgeon, mind you — he probably wouldn’t have ever been ambitious enough to aim this high. But Zayn, like always, had faith in Louis.

“Louis, you are exactly what this hospital needs right now. You’re young, you’re smart, and you’re a bossy little shit. Just give it a shot.”

Zayn notices Louis’ smile and his face softens a little. Louis finally opens the door and slides his body in the passenger seat of the sleek BMW, pressing a wet kiss on his best friend’s cheek.

He’s about to open his mouth, when Zayn interrupts him as he steps on the gas.

“I love you too, you stubborn fuck. Now off to work, eh?”

Louis incessantly drums his fingers on his leg under the table, waiting for the meeting to start. The watch on his wrist reads 9:04 — the meeting was supposed to have started by now. He looks around the room, glancing at everyone present — all important members of Garner Williams — going through each one’s name and brief biography. His hands feel clammy after having shaken God knows how many hands. Or was that sweaty Nigel the Financial Director? Or was that John the head of surgery?

“So,” Sweaty Nigel turns his swivel chair to face Louis. “You excited for your first day?”

Fuck, he shouldn’t call the CFO “Sweaty Nigel”. What the fuck is wrong with him?

Louis shoves the thought to the back of his brain. “Yeah, definitely!” He looks around the room as if he hadn’t been doing so for the past five minutes. He tries his best, non-accusatory voice. “Are we waiting for something before we start?”

“Oh, just our head of marketing. He’s just stopping by to brief us on this month’s stats — should bring you up to speed on where we are at the moment.” He pauses and gives Louis a smile. Aw, thanks, Sweaty Nigel.

“Speaking of,” Angela from HR pops her head in the conversation from next to Nigel. “We’re putting Harry in charge of showing you around. He’s a good lad — think the two of you would get along nicely.”

Louis’ eyes shift to Angela and he shakes his head politely. “Oh, no, — that won’t be necessary, really. I can manage.”

Nigel intercepts. “No, no, really! Angela’s right; you could learn the works and maybe some faces. I insist.”

Louis hesitates, but sees the genuineness in their faces. 

“Yeah — yeah, okay that’d be nice, actually. Thank you.”

Angela and Sweaty Nigel smile at him and return to their conversations. Louis glances at his watch — Jesus, it’s 9:20. This Harry guy was twenty minutes late. What else could he possibly be doing on a Tuesday morning?

A loud clambering, and — was that squelching? — comes from Louis’ left as he hears the door slam open. The floor is wet and seems to be getting wetter and wetter as it approaches the chair in front of Louis. Louis drags his eyes up to reveal a full grown man in his vision, and his jaw drops.

What he sees is a tall, lean creature, almost 6 feet tall — clad in bright yellow swimming shorts. Wet, dripping swimming shorts. In this man’s one hand were a pair of goggles and a rubbery swimming cap — in the other was a shirt, which he was currently struggling to fit over his messy bed of — did he already mention wet? — brown curls.

Wait, was this the head of marketing?

“I’m so sorry, everyone,” the man hastily apologizes to the whole room, and — oh. That’s. His voice was lower than Louis had anticipated. “Was lifeguarding again. Said they’d give us a raise if we had stayed for an extra half hour.”

Okay, a couple things — one, a raise? Louis was pretty sure that this guy was being paid just fine with his job here. Second, lifeguarding? Before work? And he didn’t think to change before barging into a meeting with the Board, who had been waiting for him for almost a half hour? Didn’t he think about putting some clothes over —

Oh. He’s shirtless.

Louis’ mouth hangs open as his eyes glazed over this man in front of him. His tanned chest somehow gleams in the meeting room’s fluorescent lighting, and Louis watches how the muscles of his broad shoulders contracts as he struggles to fit a shirt over his bed of curls. Louis can’t help wanting to reach out and help the boy — maybe touch the soft-looking hair too, while he’s at it — until his eyes meet green ones and his breath catches a little.

“Oops,” Louis mumbles as his foot slips a bit on the wet hardwood floor.

The man giggles.

Giggles.

“Hi,” he holds out his arms — for a hug? “I’m Harry. Sorry for the mess. You’re Lewis, right?” He flashes a cheeky grin. Louis blushes a little, smiling back at Harry for a split second. 

Wait, what the fuck? No. No distractions. It’s his first day, for crying out loud. He can’t just fall for the first beautiful boy he sees, let alone one who can’t even get to meetings on time.

He shakes his head, clears his throat, and holds out one stiff hand out for Harry. The boy furrows his eyebrows. His smile falters a bit as he withdraws his arms, tentatively shaking Louis’ hand instead.

“It’s Louis. We’ll get this mess cleaned up later, yeah? We’re already late for the meeting as it is.”

Harry’s eyebrow raises at the fake coldness in Louis’ voice. Shit, did it come off as fake? Louis can’t fucking tell.

“Alright, Louis — pleased to meet ya. I’ll be seeing you around,” Harry winks with a smirk in his voice before he turns around to start the presentation, not shirtless anymore to Louis’ dismay. Wait, what?

Louis sucks in a breath. It’s gonna be a long fucking day.

[at-least-theres-wine]

Sits While He Pees

 Yep. You read that. He sits. He tucks. And he pees. Or is it tucks then sits then pees? I don’t know I didn’t work out the mechanics of it all. And before I get more into this story, let me tell y’all this man got a second date. Judge me. It’s fine. Let’s just chalk it up to my new found enthusiasm for dating. Hint sarcasm.

How we met: I met him during my clinical rotation for school at a skilled nursing facility. I was initially attracted to the fact that he seemed pretty good at his job. He was kind, but quiet. I guess I like it when they don’t talk much. Anyway, his position is basically the certified assistant to what I went to school for. So technically, I’d be his boss. Was that weird? Eh, I thought “I’m a secure lady, no one cares”. Who doesn’t like to be the boss ass bitch? He seemed okay with it as well (which 1-point to him, he’s secure), because one day he asked me if I’d like to hang out after work. As a student… it’s probably not a good idea to date the people that you’re working with. Oh well. Lesson Learned. Blame the blog.

Drinks: Alright, I don’t technically call this a first date. We both had 1 drink at this bar after work. I wanted to order dinner, but he didn’t want to eat. (weird right). Later I found out he didn’t want to waste his money on someone if he didn’t see it going anywhere. I get it, but dude… come on. He also told me he doesn’t drink, which is okay. However, it does make things a little awkward when obviously I drink and enjoy drinking socially with friends, or with my dog on a casual Tuesday. BUT I could oversee this. During these drinks he talked about his love for traveling, and planning weekend trips. I love traveling! He also told me he doesn’t have any desire to pursue going farther in his career, or buying a house, or any goals like that. He also told me he’s tried to date other students at this skilled nursing facility. Yeah… I should have cut it off right then and there. I’m new to this, and I’m learning. So, I turned the convo back to his traveling adventures (shared interest right?). Mistake. He opened his phone to show me an hour by hour schedule for his next trip. The restaurants he was going to, with the food he was going to order, the price (apparently, he must plan/know what he’ll order before he can go to a restaurant), uber distances and prices ect. Is this weird?? Do other people do this? Don’t get me wrong I’m a planner, I thrive on being organized. However, I also enjoy being spontaneous and don’t like holding myself to tight restrictions like that. Literally, my anxiety started saying no girl, run.

Anyway. Obviously didn’t listen.

WE PLANNED ANOTHER DATE. Why? Why… I guess I’m trying to be more open and give things a chance.

Secondish date: A family center. A place that has an arcade, mini golf, batting cages. You. Know. Bunch of kids running rampant. FML. The man is 31. Laugh at me, it’s fine. I will tell you I was stoked for some mini golf though. Which I could have just done that, and gone home and said, “well that was fun”. But no. He wanted to show off the fact that he used to play basketball and so we waited in line behind some 8-year-old child to shoot some arcade baskets. (My soul, slowly dying). He then managed to get me to agree to trying out the batting cages. I don’t know I’m trying to be more adventurous, but your girl does not do sports. I am athletic. I am not sporty. Next thing I know I had balls shooting out left and right coming at my face. I was like, well maybe this is one of those cute movie moments where he can stand behind me and teach me something he’s good at... No again. I was in there ALONE. Ball hit my finger, instant pain and swelling. Literally looking at my finger now there’s still a bump, which may develop into some arthritis someday. Ahh memories. Worse even, he wasn’t even concerned that I was in pain. I was sooo done. I turned to him and told him I needed a glass of wine. At least there’s wine right?

Luckily, we just happened to be right next to a Cheesecake Factory. Joy! Okay okay I do love that place, but not the best for a first dinner date in my opinion. It was all good though, I got my wine. He stuck with water, because you remember he doesn’t drink, “that’s a waste of money”. Lord help me. Anyway, I tried to make the best out of the situation, trying to think of fun questions/conversation starters. We got on the topic of our weird quirks. Which brings me to his causal, “well, I sit while I pee” statement. Hold for dramatic pause.

To be honest I don’t think my brain fully registered what I had heard. I mean, you don’t hear that every day. He must have read my blank stare, because he kept going on about it. He described that at work, he uses the patient’s “practice bathroom” (where we assess if the patient is safe enough to independently return home) so he can sit down and pee in peace. He talked about how it’s actually a good thing for his girlfriends (what girlfriends…), because I would never have to worry about the seat being up. Well, you got me there. The date dwindled down. I didn’t say much about it, just did one of those slow head nods when you have no idea what’s going on. He then pulled out a CF gift card, to pay for dinner. Score!

He did kiss me. Just like a normal peck. You know, it was fine. I think I was a little in shock and drained from the events of the day. I got home and he was asking me on another date. In all honesty, I was like: good for you dude. You text back, you make plans, you *technically* paid for the date, you have a job and live on your own. These are all positive things one should look for. Unfortunately, I am not interested. I began really dissecting the sit-down peeing thing later on. My undergrad is in psychology and my first thought was, “is this something psychological? Something about control?  Was your mother too anal about potty training?”. Maybe it’s none of those things. Either way, I really shouldn’t judge someone for that. You wanna pee sitting down, in a hand-stand, on one leg up? You do you boo. It’s just not for me.

I guess that’s something I could say I learned from this whole thing. During this process there’s going to be things that come up that don’t work for me. It doesn’t make them bad guys, but I also believe there is power in knowing what I want and sticking to it. No settling. You are important enough to get what you want out of life. Does it match up with what they want? In the end “Sits While He Pees” and I had nothing in common. His obsessive planning would have stressed me out, and he probably would have hated being dragged to a brewery on the weekend with my friends.

Update: I told him I wasn’t interested in dating him, because I didn’t have those romantic feelings for him. He told me he didn’t understand… yadda yadda and that I needed to give him a better reason than that. But do I? Can’t I just say no thank you? It’s done? You accept it? This is the part of dating I just don’t like. But don’t worry, he explained that I’m probably just afraid that he’ll hurt me. That there’s something wrong with me, not him. Yep. Thank you. You’re right pee dude. Tell me how I feel, because I LOVE that. I held my tongue… (I still had to see this guy at work on occasion). He ended it with, “your loss :)” Oh man you’re right, my loss. My loss to study you as a psychological specimen of why the fuck you pee sitting down. Also, any guy that texts the “:)” face, my theory is a little psycho.

Thank u, next.

At least there’s wine!

[delightfulnerdinfluencer-blog]

Misunderstanding Chapter 5 A Mystic Messenger fanfic

A week later…

“Why does Philosophy have to be so boring!” Yoosung cried. The heel of his hands pressed into his eyes. “I was barely able to stay awake!”

Yeoja laughed at her friend as they walked. She was not going to remind him that he was the one that stayed up the night before playing LOLOL with Saeyoung and Saeran. The reason he gave that he was up so long was, he got beat pretty hard by the twins in the game, repeatedly. Thinking that one more match and he would beat them. She had heard all about it on the drive to school that morning. How they must have hacked the system or something. That there was no way they could be that good. She was also pretty sure she would hear all about it when she got home.

“Oh, what are you going to do now?” Yoosung sprung out of his whining fast to ask the question. As if he remembered something.

  “Um, going home. You have that three-hour lab. So, I was just going to leave like I normally do.”

“So, um, there is this new café that opened up near the school. After my lab wanna go? I heard that they have really good sweets!” He looked more like a puppy waiting for his treat. This made Yeoja laugh again, her hand came to cover her mouth.

“Were you not the person the other day complaining that they had no money? Now you want to take your best friend’s girl out to a café?” This made Yoosung laugh as well.

“You’re my best friend too! Well, you’re more like my older sister.” A faint blush dusted his cheeks, “My mom sent me a little extra money to take ‘that someone special’ out… well since I still don’t have a girlfriend. You’re the next best thing!”

“I’m honored to be a surrogate ‘special someone’. Yeah, I’ll hang around school until you get out.” Yeoja wrapped her arms around one of Yoosung’s and nuzzled her cheek into his shoulder. “Who knows your special someone might be around the corner!”

As they rounded the corner to an empty hall Yoosung’s shoulders sunk. Yeoja nuzzled his shoulder again trying to make him feel a bit better.

“Sometimes I wonder how much of Saeyoung rubbed off on you.”

“Well… I would go into detail, but good little boys should hear about the birds and the bees from their parents.” Yeoja stood upright and act as much of a teacher as she could while holding back laughing at her beet red friend beside her.

They reached his next classroom and parted ways. He promised that he would text her as soon as he got out. Yeoja smiled before turning to walk outside.

It was warm. The sun was bright in the sky, even though it still hung low in the midday. Yeoja hummed as she made her way to the smoking pit on school grounds. Even though she had stopped smoking completely the day she found out she was pregnant. It was still the most peaceful place in school. She did not want to waste the warm day by being inside the library.

The trees had started to bud with new life. Birds singing the triumphant return of the warm weather to come. The was a light cool breeze but it felt amazing from the bitter cold that was there a few days prior. Nothing remained of the snow storm that had just happened. The snow had melted and in its wake, was left muddy patches on the ground. As if it was all just a dream. Yeoja pulled out her phone to send a text. From: Yeoja To: Saeyoung     Hey going to stay late. Yoosung and I are going to this new café down the road from the school after his last class. I will see you later than normal. With that she sent it. It was most likely Saeyoung was still sleeping. The beep of getting a text message told her otherwise. From Saeyoung To Yeoja     Oh, so you’re leaving me for someone even younger! Fine! T0T She could see the overdramatic flair this man was doing as she read the text. An arm over his eyes as he sunk to the ground. His voice loud as faked tears rolled down his face. As he reached the ground he would place his head down. With a fisted hand, he would beat the ground below at the indignity of his cruel fate. Wailing loudly as he cursed the cat gods above. From Yeoja To Saeyoung     Can I make it up to you by bringing you something from there? ^^;; The respond was quick. From Saeyoung To Yeoja         Yes ❤

She giggled as she put away her phone and walked.

The smoking pit was like a small park. It had benches along the wall of the adjacent building. Trash cans that doubled as ash trays in-between them. The small grassy area that in closed the bricked ground was squishy but the buds of flowers were starting to peek through the pine needles. There were two paths leading to the area and out to the two closest buildings. Thankfully no one was there. Knowing that if someone was there she would not have been able to stay. She loved this little area. It was far off from the campus route that unless you were a smoker, no one had a reason to come.

She had picked up smoking in her first year of college. Her dead-end job barely paid her enough to eat and live off of. It was not like her parents could send her money every month to help her out. They barely made enough to live their self, she could not have asked them to send her help. Yeoja was on her own when she moved and she knew it. Picking up the habit after she learned that it kept hunger away, and it worked. For the last few years before meeting the RFA she lived off instant noodles and cigarettes. She tried not to smoke around her new friends, feeling shame that she let them down. Zen was the first to find out. Even though he did not approve he promised he would help her. Like a good big brother would, in his words. When Saeyoung found out, she felt as if her relationship with him was about to end. It was her biggest secret she kept from him. Saeyoung hated that she smoked and she promised that she would quit. she was almost there when she found out. Giving her last unopen pack to Zen. Promising that she would never go back.

Yeoja found a spot in the sun and sat down. The rays warmed her after being stuck in a cold classroom for the last hour and a half. It took her a moment of enjoying the day before she dug out a textbook. Flipping through the pages to find where they were. A voice stopped her.

“You done or do I need to give you another minute?” This made Yeoja look up to who spoke. Knowing who it was before she saw the figure standing at the entrance of the pit. It was her advisor, Dr. Park. A tall, thin woman in her mid-fifties. Dr. Park wore a bright purple shirt and jeans with a light jacket. Her wild salt and pepper hair pulled back in a hair band to keep the untamed curls out of her face.

“No, actually I quit. I still like it here though.” This statement made her advisor’s eyes go wide with delight. The older woman cheered as Yeoja stood and walked to her. Pulling Yeoja in a big hug.

“I knew you could do it!” No one outside of her parents and the RFA knew she was pregnant. She knew the risk of miscarriage at her age. So, she had not planned to tell anyone until she was further along. “So, then, what may I ask are you doing right now? Do you have a minute? I have someone you have to meet.”

“I got a few hours until Yoosung gets out of his class.” Yeoja went back to get her things.

“Good, good.” Dr. Park nodded. “Come with me. Remember we were talking about who would be on your advisory committee? I know we have a few years to worry about your doctoral advisory committee, but I was talking about you to a friend of mine. She said that she would be interested in helping with your Master’s Thesis. I hope you don’t mind I did use your married name when telling her about you.”

“No, you’re good. It’s not but two weeks away now so I got to get used to it at some time. Besides, our friends already do.” Yeoja said adjusting her bookbag as they walked.

“Now, I will tell you a little about her. Her major was law but she also majored in psychology in her undergrad. She was a lawyer for a few years and a good one at that. She actually has daughters your age.” Dr. Park rambled on. Yeoja was just excited to start forming the idea of her master’s thesis. She had ideas passing through her head. Her steps were near skips as they walked to the social sciences hall. If she had access to a former lawyer, then she could cover some legal aspects that might come up in her project. “I have been meaning to ask, Yeoja. Was that Zen in your video project?”

Yeoja stopped a few feet ahead of Dr. Park and looked back at the woman. “Oh, you know Zen?” the question was met with a look as if Yeoja should have known the answer. “Yeah, that was Zen. He’s one of my best friends. Sorry I keep forgetting that he’s kinda well known.”

This got a laugh out of the older woman as she walked up to stand with Yeoja. It was easy to forget who some of her friends were. When they were together they weren’t a director of one of the largest companies in the country, an actor, an assistant, hackers, or gaming addict. They were all normal people inside the chat and when they met in person. They had their flaws and their strengths. Joking and sharing stories about what they were doing at the time. Yeoja kept most of her RFA life apart from her school life. None of her school friends knew about knew who she hung out with the outside of school, aside from Yoosung. On the other hand, everyone in the RFA knew everything about her school life. She trusted them more than anyone else in her life. They were just normal people who she loved. They were her family.

Yeoja pulled out her phone and started to flip through her pictures to find the most recent selfie of her and Zen together. He had helped her with the project since Saeran and Saeyoung were busy with work and she did not want to bother them. He was more than happy to help; writing out most of the script they used since she had no idea know to make the mock session last for over ten minutes. Even pulling most likely the best performances of his career for a school project.

“I’m a big fan of his!” This was a squeal of a fangirl and not a professor of psychology.

“I’ll tell him you were happy with his performance.” Yeoja beamed, then showed the selfie of herself and Zen to her teacher. The way her teacher went on about his acting, Yeoja was not going to bring up that she has been in his house. Or that the hoodie she was wearing was originally his.

Starting back on their trip to the hall, Yeoja had to tell Dr. Park how they met. Or what she had told people about why she went missing for two weeks. Lying that she needed a few days off for her “mental health” that lead to her having a family emergency. So, she had to leave for a bit to take care of her family. In this time, she had met Zen, Jumin, the Choi twins, Jaehee. Yoosung was the easiest to lie about since they attended the same school. As it turned out having a class together before they met. She had never noticed him. The others were harder to tell how they met. In time, she came up with a believable enough story. That through Yoosung she met the rest. The Choi’s are his best friend. While Zen and Jumin were close personal friends of his family. Since Jaehee worked for Jumin, she was a tag along. For some reason, this story worked. Then again how they really met might have sounded more of a lie than the story she told.

“I guess I can’t be surprised anymore with who you know. I mean if Mr. Han is personally funding your education then I guess it’s easy to think that you would know an actor or two.” Dr. Park stated as they walked up the granite stairs to the red brick building with white letters the name of the person who gave to most money to the school for the building.

Jumin somehow found out about her lack of money and school funding. Even though Saeyoung played innocent she was sure it was him. Unlike Yoosung who had a scholarship that paid more than enough to go to school, get his books, and live off of. Yeoja had to take massive student loans out. Jumin offered her a deal when she came back from her trip to get Saeran. Keep her grades up and he would pay off the loans she already had and pay for the rest of her schooling as long as she needed. Even paying her a little each month to live on, saying that was her payment for the work she did within the RFA.

Entering the building they were greeting by two boards up for college updates and another one for student news that students posted their self at the entrance. To the right side was the student lounge complete with vending machines, a couch, TV, and a couple of tables. To the left were the stairs and elevator. The halls were deserted. With the muffled sounds of the various lectors going on behind the closed doors. Everything from Psychology to History was housed in here.

The pair took the stairs. The bright blue and a gold that glittered in the sun of the school’s colors welcomed them. The click of heels and shuffle of sneakers echoed off the walls as they made the hike up the next two floors. They went in silence only letting their footsteps speak for them. Bright sunlight poured in through the windows, warming the stairwell. When they reached the floor, the two made a sharp turn into a back hallway where the professor’s offices were hidden. As they passed an open door a deep male voice rang out.

“Dr. Park got Yeoja for smoking again!” He teased. They stopped and Yeoja walked back to his door and looked inside. A large smile beamed from him. “Such a bad student you are, Yeoja. I mean really” sarcasm dripped from each word he spoke.

Yeoja grabbed her heart and acted as if she was wounded, “Oh, yes, I am truly the worst of them all.”

With a shared laugh, she waved at the teacher and started back with Dr. Park. The rest of the way was short. They stopped at a door with Dr. Park’s name on it. The older woman opened the door and let Yeoja enter first.

“I would like you to meet my friend, Chaeha Chon.” Yeoja stopped as the second older woman stood. 

“You’re the Prime Minister’s wife!” Yeoja gasped then quickly bowed to the woman. Her heart thundered in her chest. She was the one that said she would help? No way she could be this lucky. This had to be a crazy dream. No one was this lucky.

Chaeha was about Yeoja’s height at 5’4”. Short cropped black hair framed the older woman’s thin face. She looked as if she had just stepped off of a runway. Dressed in a white pantsuit with a black blouse underneath. Nothing out of place. There was no stray hair or piece of lint on this woman.

“Nice to see you again Mrs. Choi.” Chaeha smiled to the young woman extending a hand to her. Yeoja took a step in a jerking movement to take Chaeha’s hand.

“Oh? You two have met?” Dr. Park looked between the two, puzzled.

“Yes, briefly, when I went to lunch with Chairman Han. She was there with Mr. Han.” Chaeha gave a thin smile to her friend, as she sat back down. The older woman then turned her attention to the younger woman in front of her. Deep chocolate eyes studied the student before her.

“Yeah, I had to talk to him about my grades.” The words had come out quick as Yeoja lied. Praying that Chaeha would not say anything about the RFA. How would she explain that to her teacher?

The two older women talked about little things in hopes to make Yeoja feel more comfortable. In time, Yeoja began to enter the conversation. Stuttering her words at first then becoming more comfortable in her speech. Still, every time Chaeha’s gaze went to her, Yeoja had to look away. Finding many of the little figures and posters that lined the walls of the room very interesting. There was something in her stare that made her feel uncomfortable. Maybe it was just her nerves acting up on her. This woman had been a politician’s wife for many years. She was powerful. Having to hold her own for many years. Maybe this is what made her feel unease towards the woman. This could have been seen nothing more as a job interview.

“So, next semester you will be working for your master’s degree?” Chaeha questioned. Sitting forward in her chair. Elbows coming to rest on her knees. Yeoja shifted again under the watch of the older woman.

“Um, Yeah,” Yeoja mumbled. Taking a deep breath to calm herself. She had to make sure the next words she spoke came in clear. “I mean I am taking next semester off. I will be back in January.” She went to stand straight. Even if she was feeling flustered at that moment, she could not show it.

Another thin smile came to the prime minister’s wife as she sat back in her chair. “Do you have an idea about what you want to do? With your project that is?”

“I had an outline but now that I know you’re willing to help me then I might need to change it. Maybe something with political implications. Still in Psychology that is.” The more Yeoja spoke the more comfortable she felt. Becoming braver with each word that came from her mouth. “My interest is in art therapy, but I do not think my paper has to just focus just in that. Maybe the psychological and political impact of single mothers or something in the family.”

Chaeha laugh ranged loudly, “I see what you meant by this girl will try and change the world.”

Yeoja rocked back on her heels, a large grin on her lips. She was happy with how the prime minister’s wife reacted to her. It seemed as if Dr. Park was happy as well.

“Well, we are about to go eat. You should join us, I’ll pay.” Yeoja looked at her advisor when she clapped her hands. “I mean I might be bragging here to try and get more funding. But Yeoja is one of my best students.”

“I’m sorry.” Yeoja joked back. Then looking at her phone. It had only been 20 minutes since she left Yoosung. She still had time and no college student in their right mind would ever pass up free food. Free food and the chance to pick the brain of a former lawyer. “I have a little time. Yoosung won’t get out for like another two hours.”

A cat like grin went over Chaeha’s lips. “Oh, Yoosung is your husband, right?”

“He’s like my little brother. My husband’s name is Saeyoung, Saeyoung Choi.” Yeoja laughed at what Yoosung would have looked like being called her husband. How the blonde’s face would have red. Stumbling over each word as he tried to clear his name. The genius redhead would blow a circuit laughing at his friend.

“Does your husband know you hang around other men?” Chaeha teased.

“I would hope so since Yoosung is like family to him as well. My other guy friends, we also count as our family. One big dysfunctional family.” This was true. They were their family. “Oh, I need to go to my car to drop off my stuff. I’ll be back.”

Before Yeoja reached the door, Dr. Park caught her, “No, I can drive you there.”

“But, um…” Her voice trailed off as she looked at Chaeha.

“Are you worried about what she’ll think of you if she sees your car? Sweetie, we both were college students. We know it’s almost mandatory to drive a shitty car.” *_*_* Saeyoung typed away, only to pull away for a chip or a drink. He was reviewing the logs that he had hacked from his father. Call log, internet searches, documents, anything that would give Saeyoung an idea about what the Prime Minister was doing. In the week since the meeting, he had done this every day. Still, the man did nothing to even look for the Choi’s. Saeyoung had wracked his brain in ways that he could think of that Chon might try. Nothing. He had not tried to contact either of the twins. He was keeping his word. Hell, the man did not even look up porn on any of his devices.

Placing his head in his hands Saeyoung let out an annoyed groan. As he looked back at the computer screen he noticed something for the next day. He would be talking to a group of new hires. Maybe doing a bit of recon would give him more data.

“Hey,” Saeyoung waited until he heard Saeran grunt to let him know to start speaking again, “So how would you feel if I said I was going to be a new hire under the prime minister?”

“I would say that you’re fucking stupid. Did you get that earpiece fixed?” Saeran was getting just as frustrated with dealing with the Prime Minister as Saeyoung was. Unlike Saeyoung, Saeran could drop the subject and move on with life. If he was leaving them alone then he would do the same thing. Saeyoung just could not leave it alone. Within the past couple of days checking his location on his cell. Checking every day what the man did. Saeran knew his brother’s reason, to keep everyone safe.

“I fixed it so you can hear me.” Saeyoung turned in his chair to face his younger brother. He turned back to the screen and began to hack the server again to put his information down.

Name: Luciel Choi Age: 23 Gender:

Saeyoung stopped as he thought about the last question. He could go as a woman. Luciel could be a woman’s name or a man’s name. That’s was one of the reasoning he liked it.

“Yeoja doesn’t like it when you dress as a woman.” Saeran’s voice in his ear made him jump.

As if on cue the computer beeped to let them know that she had entered the gate. It was a short time later that she walked in the door. The hackers greeted her as she entered the kitchen.

“Babe, so dress or suit?” Saeyoung purred in Yeoja’s ear.

“If you do not get away now I will throw up on you. You reek.” An arm braced her on the counter while the other was around her middle. Saeyoung stepped behind his brother. “If we are talking about the wedding then suit. Any other time I don’t care. If that’s all I’m going to bed.”

“Saeran said that you didn’t like it when I wore a dress.”

“I don’t like you having nicer legs than me. There is a big difference.” She said as she left the room.

Saeran looked at Saeyoung as they went back to the computer room, “I thought it was called morning sickness because it only happened in the morning.”

That earned a laugh from Yeoja from down the hallway, “It’s the biggest lie ever. Morning sickness will hit whenever it damn well pleases.” She shouted.

Saeyoung went back to the file.

Gender:

It was still blank. He only had his female wigs in red. If he wore a skirt and button down he would be a mirror image of the legal twin. With a sigh, he put that he was male. Then filled out the rest. Brown hair and eyes. Saeyoung groaned at the idea of another day with contacts in. The wig was bearable, enjoyable sometimes. For some reason his eyes hated contacts. With a few more details he placed his file with the rest of the new hires.

Saeyoung went to check on Yeoja. Entering the room the lava lamp gave a low glow that let the glow in the dark stars still work. Yeoja was in the middle of the bed with the blankets wrapped around her.

“Change or you’re not getting near me.” This earned a chuckle from the hacker. He complied with her demand before slipping in behind her under the blankets. He loved how she fit just right in his arms and against his body.

“My poor baby. What’s wrong.” He kissed the back of her head.

“Your children do not like me eating. Also, they must have been cold because they lit my heart up. I have some epic heartburn.” Saeyoung quickly rolled over and grabbed his phone. She just shook her head as the messenger beeped. It took her a moment before she reached her phone to find out what her favorite hacker was giggling like a school girl about. Saeyoung: I

Saeyoung: have

Saeyoung: breaking

Saeyoung: news

Saeyoung: ((((DRUMROLL))

Zen: Quit spamming!!

Saeyoung: We

Saeyoung: are

Saeyoung: having

Saeyoung: girls

Saeyoung: !!!!!!!!!!

Saeyoung then flooded the chat with his love emoji.

Yeoja has entered the chat

Zen: I said quit it damn it

Zen: Do you know what he is talking about?

Yeoja: Yeah, I just told him I had heartburn and he got on here.

Zen: Saeyoung I don’t think that’s how it works!

Saeyoung posted a picture of the last ultrasound.

Saeyoung: Aren’t my girls beautiful?

Saeyoung: I would like to introduce the RFA to my girls

Saeyoung: Porsche and Elizabeth

Zen: No!!

Yeoja: Not Porsche

Yeoja: Elizabeth is fine though

Saeyoung: Their first language they’re going to learn is binary

Zen: No!

Yeoja: Hell no!

Jaehee has entered the chat

Zen: As those two godfather I will not stand for you to do that to them

Zen: They will learn Korean first

Jaehee: Since when did you become their Godfather, Zen?

Zen: … well

Zen: I was never asked…

Zen: But I am!

Yeoja: Well, I was going to ask all of the RFA to be the Godparents to them. So he isn’t wrong.

Saeyoung: My pretty girls!!

Saeyoung: Curly red hair and gold eyes!

Jaehee: Saeyoung you can not tell the sex of your children by just her having heartburn.

Saeyoung: I read it online…

Yeoja has left the chat.

Zen: Is she okay?

Saeyoung looked over to see Yeoja putting away her phone quickly as she dashed out the room.

Saeyoung: She’s sick I should go take care of my girls!!

Saeyoung posted another picture of the ultrasound.

Saeyoung has left the chat It was a while before she returned. Just as she entered Yeoja turned around and ran back into the bathroom. He rolled onto his back and covered his eyes with his arm. Saeyoung wished there was more he could do for her. Yeoja did not like the ginger tea he’d made to help and threw up the ginger ale. It was times like these he hated. There was nothing he could do to help. After the third attempt, Yeoja made it back to bed.

“Hey lay on your back.” She did as he asked.

Saeyoung moved to be close to her side. Then began to rub around the bump higher to her stomach then back to circle around the bump again. He pressed a kiss to her forehead as his hand made another go around her torso.

“I’m sorry baby.” Yeoja shook her head as he peppered the side of head and neck with kisses.

“No, thank you, I’m starting to feel better.” Saeyoung smiled as he kissed her hair.

“I’ll make it all better.”

[goodra-king]

Transcript of Tapping Into Existing Connections to Network Smarter

Transcript of Tapping Into Existing Connections to Network Smarter written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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John Jantsch: This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast is brought to you by AXA Equitable Life. That’s axa.com. Advice, retirement and life insurance.

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is David Burkus. He’s a bestselling author, speaker and associate professor of Leadership and Innovation at Oral Roberts University. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, Friend of a Friend: Understanding the Hidden Networks That Can Transform Your Life and Your Career. So David, thanks for joining me.

David Burkus: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

John Jantsch: So how’s that university gig workout? As an author-speaker, is that a good like little side gig?

David Burkus: Yeah funny you say side gig. That’s actually exactly how I described it to a student may be about two years ago. When my second book came out, I got sort of crazy-busy in that spring season and I think I went an entire week. I’m supposed to teach Monday, Wednesday, Friday class. I think I want an entire week without seeing them just because I was running all around. And then maybe a week and a half after, one of the students was sort of pushing back on why I had been gone for so long. And he goes, “Yeah, why are you even gone? What’s that side gig thing that you do?” And I looked at him dead in the face and I said this, “This is my side gig, right? What I’m doing out there is my full-time thing.” And that’s actually been the case so that that semester everything sort of came to a head.

David Burkus: So I came to them and asked about, I’m sort of on a semi-permanent sabbatical. I teach one class a semester. I still have my appointment in time and rank and all of that kind of stuff. But I mean I don’t get paid for full-time. I get paid for the one class a semester that I teach and so it feels much more like a side gig now. Now, it’s pretty much Monday afternoons. I know where I’m going to be. I have lunch on campus and then I’m there until I teach my class that I teach at 4:30 because it’s for the MBA students and that kind of stuff. And then that’s it. And then the rest of the week, including today, I barely think about it unless someone asks me what it’s like.

John Jantsch: So this has nothing to do with your book we’re going to talk about, but I’m curious.

David Burkus: That’s fine.

John Jantsch: You as a writer, speaker, do you find that world that you play in a lot brings information to the student group or do you sometimes find that interacting with students and what they’re thinking doing, feeling brings stuff to your writing?

David Burkus: It’s probably a little bit of both. The biggest benefit that I like about it is that I get the chance to test out ideas. My background’s in organizational behavior. All of my books are very sort of social-science based. And so the real challenge as a writer is pairing that with the right case study, the right example, the right what have you. So I’m doing all of that research for a book. But then if I’m lecturing on that exact same topic, I can throw that story in, see what the reaction is, does it make sense? Does it not? Those sort of things. So having that kind of built-in test market has been really cool.

David Burkus: The other way that it’s been helpful to go the other way, and this is less of the time, but this happens as well, is I run a daily little YouTube kind of a two to three-minute tip every single weekday and a good amount of the tips. Now, the goal is to do it every single day. Now, that we’re like nine months in, you get a little dry. So a lot of student questions follow-up questions, “Well wait a minute. Why does this have to be the case?” Et cetera, then provoke ideas for, “Oh, that would be a great clip.” So let me write that down real quick. I feel bad because I teach undergrads and MBA students and we’re very sort of no technology because we don’t want you texting in the middle of class what have you. But when moments like that happen, I literally take out my phone and open up little notes file and put it in. So I feel bad because I’m clearly not practicing what I preached there. But it works.

John Jantsch: So in the subtitle, understanding the hidden networks that can transform your life and your career. Let’s define what a hidden network is.

David Burkus: Yeah. So this is a term we kind of used to describe the people in your network that a lot of us overlook, right? So most of us, I mean even when I say the word networking, most of us think it’s about converting strangers into friends or into prospects or into however we’re using the term. And so we think about our close contacts, the people that we see every day or every week, the people that we’re regularly doing business with, our current clients, all of that sort of thing. And then we think networking, we think right to those strangers. What we ignore are the people that are, the term in social sciences is weak or dormant ties, and we ignore those people that are wonder two degrees of separation out. And if you look at where a lot of the new opportunity comes in, yes strangers are going to have new information, new ideas, new potential referrals, new needs themselves that you might be able to fit, but you’ve got to sort of warm up, build rapport with them.

David Burkus: It’s that middle network, that hidden network, hidden because a lot of us are overlooking it, where there is just as many new and different pieces of information, like a total stranger, unlike your close contacts. But there is either they already know you or they know someone who knows you. They’re that friend of a friend. And so building rapport with them is a whole lot easier. So we find in that network you get a whole lot more value and I usually define networking now is just paying attention to your close contacts and those people in that hidden network, dormant ties. And people that are one or maybe two degrees of separation out from you. And if you do that well enough, you never have to go to a networking mixer or something like that ever again.

John Jantsch: Well, I think one of the challenges some folks are having with that is because, I completely agree, but I was accepting some connection requests on LinkedIn today and I noticed I have 13,000 first tier connections, which means I must have what a million-second tier connections?

David Burkus: Yeah.

John Jantsch: It’s almost like the online world theoretically made that easier, but it really made it much harder.

David Burkus: Yeah. Well I mean it did. And one of the things that we talk about right in the very in the opening chapter of the book is I pushed back on my editor a lot for writing about any technology. And I openly say in the intro, like, “I can’t teach you how to use Twitter properly, and I can’t teach you what the perfect rules for LinkedIn are,” because I’m sure you’ve guessed this too. Everybody uses it a little bit differently, and everybody has a different definition of what they count as connection. So I often say that technology should be a supplement to not a replacement for your existing face-to-face network. So my definition of connection and the one that we use in a lot of network science studies is do you know them in real life, not just forum?

David Burkus: For example, John, unfortunately, you and I, we’re still friend of a friend connections because we haven’t had that in-person thing. Everybody uses tools like that a little bit differently. The irony though is even if you shrunk it down to your connections or people that you’ve met, or you’ve worked on a project with, people that you are part of that face-to-face network, that one or two degrees of separation is still, you’re still talking about millions of people. And so learning how to kind of navigate it and ask the right questions when you go out to that network becomes a really important thing as well.

John Jantsch: I was on in the early days of social media and I do think that the initial phase was, “Get lots of followers, get lots of friends, make lots of connections, isn’t this great?” And then I think people kind of looked up and went, “Oh, crap, I can’t manage this anymore.” I think a lot of people who have really turned to that idea of, “Okay, I’m going to use LinkedIn just as you said, to really have real connections, but then make sure that it’s manageable numbers rather than just big numbers.

David Burkus: Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think everybody has to set their own rules. Because of the work that I do kind of treat LinkedIn as a platform that people can consume content that I’m putting out on there. So we put the video on there, we do articles on there and what have you. So even my rules are a little bit different, but I did a very similar thing with Facebook. Similar basically now, actually they work really, really similar, except one’s full of puppy photos and political memes and the other is full of real business stuff.

David Burkus: But I went from probably 1,800 to 2,000 contacts or friends in Facebook to less than 150. And actually, every year it’s become a joke with 150 or so that are still around. Every year I do a Christmas purge, so the day after Christmas I sit down and go through, it takes me two or three days because I don’t want to spend six hours doing it. I do a little bit at a time. But my goal is by New Year’s to have looked at everyone’s profile and asked myself the question, “Do I still want to see them in my news feed and do I still want them to see my stuff in their newsfeed?” And so I go through kind of every year and do that to treat that network that way. Because otherwise, it’s sort of overwhelming, right?

John Jantsch: Absolutely. I actually heard somebody, I thought this was interesting advice. They said that their approach was that they … You know how Facebook tells you it’s David’s birthday today? Then you through, then you go, “If I don’t want to say happy birthday to that person necessarily in person, they’re gone.” And I thought well that’s interesting.

David Burkus: Oh, I go even deeper actually, because I’ll say happy birthday to lots of people. My question is actually, “Do I want you to see pictures of my kids?” Because what happens is my first book came out before we had children. I was building the whole platform and so I was connecting with everybody, whoever, just you never know where it’s going to go type of thing. And then it wasn’t actually my first born, I didn’t notice it too much. But when my second born candidly, we spent a long time in the NICU, and we’re posting these sort of updates that are actually fairly emotional. And then a random person that saw me speak in Cleveland is typing a message on there. And I’m just sort of like, “I know you mean well, but this makes me uncomfortable,” so I’m clearly going to have to do something about this.

David Burkus: That’s become my question. I’ve heard other people do similar questions. I’m forgetting who it is, but I was talking to somebody that chooses to prune LinkedIn on the basis of, “Would I give this person $20 knowing I’m never going to get paid back?” Right. And I mean, there’s a lot of people in my life that I would be like, “Yeah, I’ll lend you $20,” knowing that. I mean, John, I’d lend you $20 knowing I’m never going to get paid back. Right? But it’s not that big. There’re not that many people in the world that I would do that for.

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Let’s talk about another concept that I think is central to this, and others have, I mean I think this has become a common sort of term in networking circles, but this idea of superconnectors.

David Burkus: What I think is interesting is they play an interesting role, and they don’t play the role we expect. So from a strict network science side, and then I’ll flip over to kind of what this means, especially for entrepreneurs. From a strict network science side, we thought that superconnectors, the people who had a disproportionate number of connections, if you were to ask everybody in industry, for example, how many people they know and you graphed it, you wouldn’t get an inverted U, you’d get a power law, you’d get an 80/20 principle, right? So 20% of the people have 80% or at least are connected to 80% of the people in a network. And we call them superconnectors. And for the longest time we thought that superconnectors, we’re the people that that kept the network together, that the people that explained that everybody is only five or six introductions away from each other.

David Burkus: I mean, we thought Kevin Bacon was a superconnector, right? Because everybody in film can be connected to him. The interesting thing is, and that’s not the case, it’s actually, I mean, again, to go back to those weak and dormant ties, every one of us has those. We’ve all changed jobs or moved to cities or what have you. So there’s so much that super nerdy term is resiliency in the network that superconnectors don’t do that. What they do is when you investigate where they come from, you find this other really interesting principle, which is the principle of preferential attachment. And that’s this idea that over time, as you gain more connections, as you’re better known inside of the network, more organic connections come to you, right? The most connected people in a community are usually going to be the ones that are most likely to meet new members into that community. Which makes sense, right? If you’re the person everybody knows you have a better chance of getting those introductions.

David Burkus: Why I like this is for your average person, whether you’re sort of a newbie-entrepreneur, or you’re somebody looking for your career, whatever you’re looking for you. We all look to those people that just seem to know everybody that seemed to get business coming. We’re struggling to come to find new clients and they’re just getting natural organic leads coming in all of the time. That’s preferential attachment at work.

David Burkus: The difference is usually they’ve put in that work for a number of years ahead of time to build up all of those contexts. It kind of explains why networking appears to be so easy to some people and why we struggle. What it also says is that it holds out the promise that if you put in the work, and you put in the intention, you can build that same thing. You can roll that snowball down the hill and get to that point as well. I don’t know that everybody can be a super connector, but everybody can leverage preferential attachment. That the more you’re being intentional about your connections and your network, the more potential new connections come in.

John Jantsch: That ties back to our weak ties, right? I mean, because one of the things I’m envisioning people thinking is, “Oh, okay, you’re right. I’ve got all these weak ties out there. I should go start selling them something. And obviously, and we’ve all gotten that email, “I’m a friend of David.”

David Burkus: Oh, I’ve gotten that LinkedIn, yeah, exactly.

John Jantsch: So how do you actually, effectively, knowing they’re there and knowing that they’re powerful, how do you effectively approach and engage them?

David Burkus: So two strategies or maybe the same strategy in a twofold thing, but that everybody can put into place. The first is to have a system where weak ties are getting regularly checked in with, right? If you haven’t talked to somebody in 18 months, it is not the right time to try, and sell them something, right? But it is the right time to let them know that you remember them, and you still care about them. And so there’s a couple of different ways you can do this. My favorite is sort of social media arbitrage. We’ve been talking about it a little bit, but that is that everyone is so overwhelmed than what you can do is find a more valuable means of communication. So you see that somebody is posting this new thing. I have a good friend that just announced on Facebook that he and his wife are expecting, right? And the guy’s got 4,000 connections. And so if I just click like or comment, that’s going to get lost.

David Burkus: So the better way to do it is you find that information that a weak tie is broadcasting, and you send them a more private message. In this case, I sent him a text message, right? And what that does is it resets what I call the clock, the stopwatch of awkwardness, right? Because the longer a period of time you go between interacting with a weak tie, the more awkward it’ll get that next time. So it resets that clock, and if that’s all you do, now you’ve built a connection to where they don’t feel awkward reaching back out to you. If you need something, you don’t feel awkward reaching out to them. So that can be three months, six months, a year. It depends on the connection, but that sort of step one.

David Burkus: And then step two is I very rarely find situations where all of those weak ties that people have assembled are perfect clients. And so I usually find that you’ve got to go into that one degree of separation out of that friend of a friend network to find that. The most common questions I coach people to ask are, “Who do you know in blank?” With blank being that industry or that city or whatever it is you’re trying to find people in. Or a similar spin on that question is, “Who do you know that’s at blank?” Which is basically a stage of life. So for example, I mean, and this is a terrible example, but if you sold cars, right. The wrong question to ask is, “who do you know that’s looking for a car?” Because everybody’s going to feel weird. But if you ask, “Who do you know that is expecting a new child?” Because that means you’re going to have to rethink your car situation, right?

David Burkus: Or even in business, “Who do you know that is growing their business rapidly, and is at that point where there’re certain systems that they can’t really just do on pen and paper anymore?” “Oh, well, we sell this CRM system,” or whatever it is. You find a way to ask, “Who do you know in,” that is in a certain stage. And then if you’re the solution stage, that can be a potential referral. The reason I like, “Who do you know?” Is that it gives you usually a list of two or three names and this is really key. It gives you a list of two or three names that that person would be comfortable introducing you to. Because if they wouldn’t be comfortable introducing you to them, they’ll just not list them in those names. And that works a whole lot more effectively than sort of LinkedIn stalking a prospective client. And then trying to trace your way back to find the right introduction to them. That’s just an awkward mess.

John Jantsch: Well, and I actually think you do that person a favor too. I get these all the time, and I’m like, “I don’t know.” They’re like, “Let me know if there’s any way I can help you.” these requests on LinkedIn. And I was like, “Well, I don’t know what you do. I don’t know who you are. I have no way that I can tell you how you could help me.” And I think that’s a lot of times when people aren’t specific about a way in which they could do something or what they’re actually looking for. I think now the universe is potential and I think that makes it tough.

David Burkus: Yeah. Oh, I totally agree. And so when you cut it into, “Okay, this is the type of person I’m looking for, a prospective client, new hire.” I have a lot of people that do this with companies, “I’m looking to work at this company. Who do you know that that works there or works in that industry to at least get me closer?” It’s a good way to throw that question out, and it’s less vague. And I think it goes the other way too with us. Right? So the weirdest thing about that, “How can I help you question,” is like, “Whatever I say, the odds that you’re going to have that knowledge, skill or ability are really small,” but you might know somebody who does, right? I have a friend who was having a baby. I don’t know anything about having a baby, but I’ve got a friend who’s a prenatal doctor like, “If you need someone to talk to you about vitamins, I can connect to you.”

John Jantsch: One of the problems, of course, that I think we probably don’t recognize. And this isn’t just a network, I mean this happens in your community and that is the concept of homophily. Did I say that right?

David Burkus:  Yes. Yeah.

John Jantsch: And the idea that you tend to hang around with that are like you and think like you and look like you and that’s not always a good thing. And, in fact, used our last presidential election is kind of a way to illustrate that.

David Burkus: Yeah, people love to hate that part of the … Well, no, I mean really, regardless of how you feel. And I’ll put this out there and even this we’re going to get angry letters about, so I apologize, regardless of how you feel about any of the four candidates. Right. Well, I won’t even limit this to two the consensus by a lot of people now two years out looking at that election is that Hillary Clinton lost that election more than Donald Trump won it. Right. And there’s a lot of jokes about ignoring Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania. Ironically, these are the Michael Moore states. These are the states that 12 months before the actual election, Michael Moore was warning people about saying that if you shifted too far to the coast in the big cities, and you’re ignoring that kind of rust belt union vote that normally goes blue, it’ll flip red.

David Burkus: And that’s kind of precisely what happened from the campaign headquarters in Brooklyn. The team had models that said we’re going to win Michigan … We don’t have to go to Wisconsin and we’re going to win Wisconsin. And that didn’t happen. And that’s one example and it was a salient example and it was me attempting to hit a nerve of emotions, so people talk about that example. But history is full of that. Business history is full of executives making terrible decisions because they had limited information. We go back into further presidential history, we have things like the Bay of Pigs and the entire sort of groupthink fiasco that came out of that. And the reason is quite simply that homophily idea. That it’s not just that we like people who are similar to us. In fact, that’s actually the smaller part of it.

David Burkus: The big part of it is those new connections. Most of us aren’t intentional. Most of us are just organic about how we make new connections and how we meet new people. And the problem is that those people are going to be really similar to the people we already know. So unless we’re intentionally looking for people that are different from us, the network is not going to serve them to us. We could be out there thinking, “I’m really connected, so I clearly have all of this information,” and not realize that we’re ignoring whole segments of our target population.

John Jantsch: I had a friend, or a connection request on LinkedIn the other day, and it said that we had 675 mutual connections. I had absolutely no idea who this person was. I mean, how is that possible?

David Burkus: Well, I mean again, if you look at the research. We like to joke about six degrees of separation, but it’s been proven multiple times. I’ve never seen a study done through LinkedIn, although ironically they should do this. In Facebook that the 2 billion people that are members of Facebook are connected by four. It’s 4.2 potential introductions on average. Right? So I actually think of that not as, because depending on your reaction to the story I just told you may or may not want to be six introductions away from the president. But I look at it is that idea that the network is so vast and interconnected that there are millions, tens of millions. Pretty much everyone that is in your professional network or that’s going to have an influence on your career these days is either a friend already, or they’re a friend of a friend and that’s good news if you can do it with some intentionality and authenticity. If you’re trying to be that kind of weirdo spammer, I think it’s actually bad news because people are going to get tired of your thing faster.

John Jantsch: So you’ve already kind of bashed the idea of networking mixers, and I’ve not played in that pool for a long, long time. And so I don’t even know if they’re that popular, but I really loved your, I don’t think it was a whole chapter, but this idea of a different way instead of just going and saying, “Hi, I’m David, nice to meet you.” This idea of sharing activities. I think that’s actually, to me probably my favorite part of the book about how to, and it wouldn’t even just be networking. I mean, I think that’s just a better way may be to meet friends?

David Burkus: Oh, well, I agree, but I’m also kind of the opinion now that everyone, even professional contacts we should put in the friend bucket anyway. Right. So yeah, shared activities, I mean the gist of it is that we know from research and human behavior that people don’t actually mix at these mixers, The networking hour at that conference, the meetup that you saw advertised. And so you showed up to it. I mean literally sort of speed networking things. People spend most of their time with people that they already know. And even when they’re meeting new people, they usually stick to a script of who are you and what do you do? And then immediately try, and figure out are your prospect or can I help you? Or that sort of thing. And because of that, we don’t really get to understand them multi-facets of people.

David Burkus: And so these shared activities, a shared activity is a term coined by Brian Uzzi and Sharon Dunlap that deals with specific activities that draw diverse sets of new people where there’re three components to it. Where there is an objective other than just knowing people. So in the book, we talk about dinner parties, and the idea that you can cook together. That’s one objective. I was just working with a group last week that really sees their charity work, so they have a Habitat for Humanity. They plan a 5K, all of that as shared activities that draw people from throughout the company. It can be anything where there is that objective.

David Burkus: That objective requires interdependence, so one person can’t do all of the work and then there are stakes to not achieving that objective. That gets people sort of emotionally involved. They have to be involved, they have to be interdependent in order to achieve that objective. And what we find is you build deeper relationships faster with someone. When you put all of that Who are you and what do you do perfect elevator’s pitch stuff to the side, and you focus in on that objective. You end up having different conversations. Conversations where you find the fancy term is uncommon commonalities with people. Stuff that you have in common with them that you never would have expected, and you end up meeting people that are more different than you. Then you would meet if you were just at this networking event, trusting your script to lead you to the right person.

John Jantsch: Yeah, and I mean that can be Comic-Con.

David Burkus: Yeah.

John Jantsch: You know what I mean? You find these people that you never would meet anywhere else, but you have this shared connection. And I think there’s so much more potential in that going beyond the sort of, “I’ve got my armor up,” that happens at a networking event.

David Burkus: Oh, no, I mean, it’s not Comic-Con, but my weird esoteric fact is I’ve trained in Brazilian Jujitsu as a martial art for the last 14 years. And when you find someone, even if like you’re getting the weirdest vibe from them ever, and then you find out that you have that in common, suddenly you’re like, “Oh,” now you’re friends. Right? The only thing I can compare it to is if you’ve ever traveled to a foreign country, and you hear an American accent, even if they’re from Texas and you’re from New York, it’s suddenly like, “Oh, we have this thing in common,” and it only matters because it’s uncommon compared to the people around you.

John Jantsch: David, where can people find out more about Friend of a Friend and your work? I know you’ve got the book on your site.

David Burkus:  Yeah, well I have it on my site, but I’ll tell you if you listen to this show, the best place to find out more about it as the show notes for this episode. Because we’ll link to all that and John wants you to go to those anyway. My website’s davidburkus.com but the easiest thing to do is do want John wants and check out the show notes for this episode because he wants to know you care.

John Jantsch: Man, can you come in the last five minutes of every podcast episode that I [inaudible 00:24:50]? Can I do that because sometimes I even forget to ask? We will definitely have it in the show notes. We love those reviews. We want you to buy David’s book. How’s that?

David Burkus:  I love it. Love it. That’s perfect. You plug my book. I’ll plug your show notes and leave a rating and review. It helps them spread the word about the show, and it helps them know you’re listening.

John Jantsch: Yeah, absolutely. And I went to University of Kansas and did you go to Oral Roberts or is that?

David Burkus: I went as an undergrad at Robertson. I went to grad school at the University of Oklahoma. So we have seen each other on the field of play many times.

John Jantsch: Well, and I think our basketball coach did a stint at Oral Roberts. Didn’t Bill Self coach at Oral Roberts?

David Burkus: Yes, he did.

John Jantsch: It’s kind of where you got to start, I think, isn’t it?

David Burkus: Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch: And then he went back over at Oklahoma State, I think, where he was an undergrad.

David Burkus: Yep.

John Jantsch: Enough of that nonsense. David, was great catching up with you and hope to see you as soon out there on the road in real life so that I can actually be considered part of your network.

David Burkus: There you go. I love it. I love it. I hope that happens soon too. Will talk to you again soon.

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John Jantsch: This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast is brought to you by AXA Equitable Life. That’s axa.com. Advice, retirement and life insurance.

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is David Burkus. He’s a bestselling author, speaker and associate professor of Leadership and Innovation at Oral Roberts University. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, Friend of a Friend: Understanding the Hidden Networks That Can Transform Your Life and Your Career. So David, thanks for joining me.

David Burkus: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

John Jantsch: So how’s that university gig workout? As an author-speaker, is that a good like little side gig?

David Burkus: Yeah funny you say side gig. That’s actually exactly how I described it to a student may be about two years ago. When my second book came out, I got sort of crazy-busy in that spring season and I think I went an entire week. I’m supposed to teach Monday, Wednesday, Friday class. I think I want an entire week without seeing them just because I was running all around. And then maybe a week and a half after, one of the students was sort of pushing back on why I had been gone for so long. And he goes, “Yeah, why are you even gone? What’s that side gig thing that you do?” And I looked at him dead in the face and I said this, “This is my side gig, right? What I’m doing out there is my full-time thing.” And that’s actually been the case so that that semester everything sort of came to a head.

David Burkus: So I came to them and asked about, I’m sort of on a semi-permanent sabbatical. I teach one class a semester. I still have my appointment in time and rank and all of that kind of stuff. But I mean I don’t get paid for full-time. I get paid for the one class a semester that I teach and so it feels much more like a side gig now. Now, it’s pretty much Monday afternoons. I know where I’m going to be. I have lunch on campus and then I’m there until I teach my class that I teach at 4:30 because it’s for the MBA students and that kind of stuff. And then that’s it. And then the rest of the week, including today, I barely think about it unless someone asks me what it’s like.

John Jantsch: So this has nothing to do with your book we’re going to talk about, but I’m curious.

David Burkus: That’s fine.

John Jantsch: You as a writer, speaker, do you find that world that you play in a lot brings information to the student group or do you sometimes find that interacting with students and what they’re thinking doing, feeling brings stuff to your writing?

David Burkus: It’s probably a little bit of both. The biggest benefit that I like about it is that I get the chance to test out ideas. My background’s in organizational behavior. All of my books are very sort of social-science based. And so the real challenge as a writer is pairing that with the right case study, the right example, the right what have you. So I’m doing all of that research for a book. But then if I’m lecturing on that exact same topic, I can throw that story in, see what the reaction is, does it make sense? Does it not? Those sort of things. So having that kind of built-in test market has been really cool.

David Burkus: The other way that it’s been helpful to go the other way, and this is less of the time, but this happens as well, is I run a daily little YouTube kind of a two to three-minute tip every single weekday and a good amount of the tips. Now, the goal is to do it every single day. Now, that we’re like nine months in, you get a little dry. So a lot of student questions follow-up questions, “Well wait a minute. Why does this have to be the case?” Et cetera, then provoke ideas for, “Oh, that would be a great clip.” So let me write that down real quick. I feel bad because I teach undergrads and MBA students and we’re very sort of no technology because we don’t want you texting in the middle of class what have you. But when moments like that happen, I literally take out my phone and open up little notes file and put it in. So I feel bad because I’m clearly not practicing what I preached there. But it works.

John Jantsch: So in the subtitle, understanding the hidden networks that can transform your life and your career. Let’s define what a hidden network is.

David Burkus: Yeah. So this is a term we kind of used to describe the people in your network that a lot of us overlook, right? So most of us, I mean even when I say the word networking, most of us think it’s about converting strangers into friends or into prospects or into however we’re using the term. And so we think about our close contacts, the people that we see every day or every week, the people that we’re regularly doing business with, our current clients, all of that sort of thing. And then we think networking, we think right to those strangers. What we ignore are the people that are, the term in social sciences is weak or dormant ties, and we ignore those people that are wonder two degrees of separation out. And if you look at where a lot of the new opportunity comes in, yes strangers are going to have new information, new ideas, new potential referrals, new needs themselves that you might be able to fit, but you’ve got to sort of warm up, build rapport with them.

David Burkus: It’s that middle network, that hidden network, hidden because a lot of us are overlooking it, where there is just as many new and different pieces of information, like a total stranger, unlike your close contacts. But there is either they already know you or they know someone who knows you. They’re that friend of a friend. And so building rapport with them is a whole lot easier. So we find in that network you get a whole lot more value and I usually define networking now is just paying attention to your close contacts and those people in that hidden network, dormant ties. And people that are one or maybe two degrees of separation out from you. And if you do that well enough, you never have to go to a networking mixer or something like that ever again.

John Jantsch: Well, I think one of the challenges some folks are having with that is because, I completely agree, but I was accepting some connection requests on LinkedIn today and I noticed I have 13,000 first tier connections, which means I must have what a million-second tier connections?

David Burkus: Yeah.

John Jantsch: It’s almost like the online world theoretically made that easier, but it really made it much harder.

David Burkus: Yeah. Well I mean it did. And one of the things that we talk about right in the very in the opening chapter of the book is I pushed back on my editor a lot for writing about any technology. And I openly say in the intro, like, “I can’t teach you how to use Twitter properly, and I can’t teach you what the perfect rules for LinkedIn are,” because I’m sure you’ve guessed this too. Everybody uses it a little bit differently, and everybody has a different definition of what they count as connection. So I often say that technology should be a supplement to not a replacement for your existing face-to-face network. So my definition of connection and the one that we use in a lot of network science studies is do you know them in real life, not just forum?

David Burkus: For example, John, unfortunately, you and I, we’re still friend of a friend connections because we haven’t had that in-person thing. Everybody uses tools like that a little bit differently. The irony though is even if you shrunk it down to your connections or people that you’ve met, or you’ve worked on a project with, people that you are part of that face-to-face network, that one or two degrees of separation is still, you’re still talking about millions of people. And so learning how to kind of navigate it and ask the right questions when you go out to that network becomes a really important thing as well.

John Jantsch: I was on in the early days of social media and I do think that the initial phase was, “Get lots of followers, get lots of friends, make lots of connections, isn’t this great?” And then I think people kind of looked up and went, “Oh, crap, I can’t manage this anymore.” I think a lot of people who have really turned to that idea of, “Okay, I’m going to use LinkedIn just as you said, to really have real connections, but then make sure that it’s manageable numbers rather than just big numbers.

David Burkus: Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think everybody has to set their own rules. Because of the work that I do kind of treat LinkedIn as a platform that people can consume content that I’m putting out on there. So we put the video on there, we do articles on there and what have you. So even my rules are a little bit different, but I did a very similar thing with Facebook. Similar basically now, actually they work really, really similar, except one’s full of puppy photos and political memes and the other is full of real business stuff.

David Burkus: But I went from probably 1,800 to 2,000 contacts or friends in Facebook to less than 150. And actually, every year it’s become a joke with 150 or so that are still around. Every year I do a Christmas purge, so the day after Christmas I sit down and go through, it takes me two or three days because I don’t want to spend six hours doing it. I do a little bit at a time. But my goal is by New Year’s to have looked at everyone’s profile and asked myself the question, “Do I still want to see them in my news feed and do I still want them to see my stuff in their newsfeed?” And so I go through kind of every year and do that to treat that network that way. Because otherwise, it’s sort of overwhelming, right?

John Jantsch: Absolutely. I actually heard somebody, I thought this was interesting advice. They said that their approach was that they … You know how Facebook tells you it’s David’s birthday today? Then you through, then you go, “If I don’t want to say happy birthday to that person necessarily in person, they’re gone.” And I thought well that’s interesting.

David Burkus: Oh, I go even deeper actually, because I’ll say happy birthday to lots of people. My question is actually, “Do I want you to see pictures of my kids?” Because what happens is my first book came out before we had children. I was building the whole platform and so I was connecting with everybody, whoever, just you never know where it’s going to go type of thing. And then it wasn’t actually my first born, I didn’t notice it too much. But when my second born candidly, we spent a long time in the NICU, and we’re posting these sort of updates that are actually fairly emotional. And then a random person that saw me speak in Cleveland is typing a message on there. And I’m just sort of like, “I know you mean well, but this makes me uncomfortable,” so I’m clearly going to have to do something about this.

David Burkus: That’s become my question. I’ve heard other people do similar questions. I’m forgetting who it is, but I was talking to somebody that chooses to prune LinkedIn on the basis of, “Would I give this person $20 knowing I’m never going to get paid back?” Right. And I mean, there’s a lot of people in my life that I would be like, “Yeah, I’ll lend you $20,” knowing that. I mean, John, I’d lend you $20 knowing I’m never going to get paid back. Right? But it’s not that big. There’re not that many people in the world that I would do that for.

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Let’s talk about another concept that I think is central to this, and others have, I mean I think this has become a common sort of term in networking circles, but this idea of superconnectors.

David Burkus: What I think is interesting is they play an interesting role, and they don’t play the role we expect. So from a strict network science side, and then I’ll flip over to kind of what this means, especially for entrepreneurs. From a strict network science side, we thought that superconnectors, the people who had a disproportionate number of connections, if you were to ask everybody in industry, for example, how many people they know and you graphed it, you wouldn’t get an inverted U, you’d get a power law, you’d get an 80/20 principle, right? So 20% of the people have 80% or at least are connected to 80% of the people in a network. And we call them superconnectors. And for the longest time we thought that superconnectors, we’re the people that that kept the network together, that the people that explained that everybody is only five or six introductions away from each other.

David Burkus: I mean, we thought Kevin Bacon was a superconnector, right? Because everybody in film can be connected to him. The interesting thing is, and that’s not the case, it’s actually, I mean, again, to go back to those weak and dormant ties, every one of us has those. We’ve all changed jobs or moved to cities or what have you. So there’s so much that super nerdy term is resiliency in the network that superconnectors don’t do that. What they do is when you investigate where they come from, you find this other really interesting principle, which is the principle of preferential attachment. And that’s this idea that over time, as you gain more connections, as you’re better known inside of the network, more organic connections come to you, right? The most connected people in a community are usually going to be the ones that are most likely to meet new members into that community. Which makes sense, right? If you’re the person everybody knows you have a better chance of getting those introductions.

David Burkus: Why I like this is for your average person, whether you’re sort of a newbie-entrepreneur, or you’re somebody looking for your career, whatever you’re looking for you. We all look to those people that just seem to know everybody that seemed to get business coming. We’re struggling to come to find new clients and they’re just getting natural organic leads coming in all of the time. That’s preferential attachment at work.

David Burkus: The difference is usually they’ve put in that work for a number of years ahead of time to build up all of those contexts. It kind of explains why networking appears to be so easy to some people and why we struggle. What it also says is that it holds out the promise that if you put in the work, and you put in the intention, you can build that same thing. You can roll that snowball down the hill and get to that point as well. I don’t know that everybody can be a super connector, but everybody can leverage preferential attachment. That the more you’re being intentional about your connections and your network, the more potential new connections come in.

John Jantsch: That ties back to our weak ties, right? I mean, because one of the things I’m envisioning people thinking is, “Oh, okay, you’re right. I’ve got all these weak ties out there. I should go start selling them something. And obviously, and we’ve all gotten that email, “I’m a friend of David.”

David Burkus: Oh, I’ve gotten that LinkedIn, yeah, exactly.

John Jantsch: So how do you actually, effectively, knowing they’re there and knowing that they’re powerful, how do you effectively approach and engage them?

David Burkus: So two strategies or maybe the same strategy in a twofold thing, but that everybody can put into place. The first is to have a system where weak ties are getting regularly checked in with, right? If you haven’t talked to somebody in 18 months, it is not the right time to try, and sell them something, right? But it is the right time to let them know that you remember them, and you still care about them. And so there’s a couple of different ways you can do this. My favorite is sort of social media arbitrage. We’ve been talking about it a little bit, but that is that everyone is so overwhelmed than what you can do is find a more valuable means of communication. So you see that somebody is posting this new thing. I have a good friend that just announced on Facebook that he and his wife are expecting, right? And the guy’s got 4,000 connections. And so if I just click like or comment, that’s going to get lost.

David Burkus: So the better way to do it is you find that information that a weak tie is broadcasting, and you send them a more private message. In this case, I sent him a text message, right? And what that does is it resets what I call the clock, the stopwatch of awkwardness, right? Because the longer a period of time you go between interacting with a weak tie, the more awkward it’ll get that next time. So it resets that clock, and if that’s all you do, now you’ve built a connection to where they don’t feel awkward reaching back out to you. If you need something, you don’t feel awkward reaching out to them. So that can be three months, six months, a year. It depends on the connection, but that sort of step one.

David Burkus: And then step two is I very rarely find situations where all of those weak ties that people have assembled are perfect clients. And so I usually find that you’ve got to go into that one degree of separation out of that friend of a friend network to find that. The most common questions I coach people to ask are, “Who do you know in blank?” With blank being that industry or that city or whatever it is you’re trying to find people in. Or a similar spin on that question is, “Who do you know that’s at blank?” Which is basically a stage of life. So for example, I mean, and this is a terrible example, but if you sold cars, right. The wrong question to ask is, “who do you know that’s looking for a car?” Because everybody’s going to feel weird. But if you ask, “Who do you know that is expecting a new child?” Because that means you’re going to have to rethink your car situation, right?

David Burkus: Or even in business, “Who do you know that is growing their business rapidly, and is at that point where there’re certain systems that they can’t really just do on pen and paper anymore?” “Oh, well, we sell this CRM system,” or whatever it is. You find a way to ask, “Who do you know in,” that is in a certain stage. And then if you’re the solution stage, that can be a potential referral. The reason I like, “Who do you know?” Is that it gives you usually a list of two or three names and this is really key. It gives you a list of two or three names that that person would be comfortable introducing you to. Because if they wouldn’t be comfortable introducing you to them, they’ll just not list them in those names. And that works a whole lot more effectively than sort of LinkedIn stalking a prospective client. And then trying to trace your way back to find the right introduction to them. That’s just an awkward mess.

John Jantsch: Well, and I actually think you do that person a favor too. I get these all the time, and I’m like, “I don’t know.” They’re like, “Let me know if there’s any way I can help you.” these requests on LinkedIn. And I was like, “Well, I don’t know what you do. I don’t know who you are. I have no way that I can tell you how you could help me.” And I think that’s a lot of times when people aren’t specific about a way in which they could do something or what they’re actually looking for. I think now the universe is potential and I think that makes it tough.

David Burkus: Yeah. Oh, I totally agree. And so when you cut it into, “Okay, this is the type of person I’m looking for, a prospective client, new hire.” I have a lot of people that do this with companies, “I’m looking to work at this company. Who do you know that that works there or works in that industry to at least get me closer?” It’s a good way to throw that question out, and it’s less vague. And I think it goes the other way too with us. Right? So the weirdest thing about that, “How can I help you question,” is like, “Whatever I say, the odds that you’re going to have that knowledge, skill or ability are really small,” but you might know somebody who does, right? I have a friend who was having a baby. I don’t know anything about having a baby, but I’ve got a friend who’s a prenatal doctor like, “If you need someone to talk to you about vitamins, I can connect to you.”

John Jantsch: One of the problems, of course, that I think we probably don’t recognize. And this isn’t just a network, I mean this happens in your community and that is the concept of homophily. Did I say that right?

David Burkus:  Yes. Yeah.

John Jantsch: And the idea that you tend to hang around with that are like you and think like you and look like you and that’s not always a good thing. And, in fact, used our last presidential election is kind of a way to illustrate that.

David Burkus: Yeah, people love to hate that part of the … Well, no, I mean really, regardless of how you feel. And I’ll put this out there and even this we’re going to get angry letters about, so I apologize, regardless of how you feel about any of the four candidates. Right. Well, I won’t even limit this to two the consensus by a lot of people now two years out looking at that election is that Hillary Clinton lost that election more than Donald Trump won it. Right. And there’s a lot of jokes about ignoring Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania. Ironically, these are the Michael Moore states. These are the states that 12 months before the actual election, Michael Moore was warning people about saying that if you shifted too far to the coast in the big cities, and you’re ignoring that kind of rust belt union vote that normally goes blue, it’ll flip red.

David Burkus: And that’s kind of precisely what happened from the campaign headquarters in Brooklyn. The team had models that said we’re going to win Michigan … We don’t have to go to Wisconsin and we’re going to win Wisconsin. And that didn’t happen. And that’s one example and it was a salient example and it was me attempting to hit a nerve of emotions, so people talk about that example. But history is full of that. Business history is full of executives making terrible decisions because they had limited information. We go back into further presidential history, we have things like the Bay of Pigs and the entire sort of groupthink fiasco that came out of that. And the reason is quite simply that homophily idea. That it’s not just that we like people who are similar to us. In fact, that’s actually the smaller part of it.

David Burkus: The big part of it is those new connections. Most of us aren’t intentional. Most of us are just organic about how we make new connections and how we meet new people. And the problem is that those people are going to be really similar to the people we already know. So unless we’re intentionally looking for people that are different from us, the network is not going to serve them to us. We could be out there thinking, “I’m really connected, so I clearly have all of this information,” and not realize that we’re ignoring whole segments of our target population.

John Jantsch: I had a friend, or a connection request on LinkedIn the other day, and it said that we had 675 mutual connections. I had absolutely no idea who this person was. I mean, how is that possible?

David Burkus: Well, I mean again, if you look at the research. We like to joke about six degrees of separation, but it’s been proven multiple times. I’ve never seen a study done through LinkedIn, although ironically they should do this. In Facebook that the 2 billion people that are members of Facebook are connected by four. It’s 4.2 potential introductions on average. Right? So I actually think of that not as, because depending on your reaction to the story I just told you may or may not want to be six introductions away from the president. But I look at it is that idea that the network is so vast and interconnected that there are millions, tens of millions. Pretty much everyone that is in your professional network or that’s going to have an influence on your career these days is either a friend already, or they’re a friend of a friend and that’s good news if you can do it with some intentionality and authenticity. If you’re trying to be that kind of weirdo spammer, I think it’s actually bad news because people are going to get tired of your thing faster.

John Jantsch: So you’ve already kind of bashed the idea of networking mixers, and I’ve not played in that pool for a long, long time. And so I don’t even know if they’re that popular, but I really loved your, I don’t think it was a whole chapter, but this idea of a different way instead of just going and saying, “Hi, I’m David, nice to meet you.” This idea of sharing activities. I think that’s actually, to me probably my favorite part of the book about how to, and it wouldn’t even just be networking. I mean, I think that’s just a better way may be to meet friends?

David Burkus: Oh, well, I agree, but I’m also kind of the opinion now that everyone, even professional contacts we should put in the friend bucket anyway. Right. So yeah, shared activities, I mean the gist of it is that we know from research and human behavior that people don’t actually mix at these mixers, The networking hour at that conference, the meetup that you saw advertised. And so you showed up to it. I mean literally sort of speed networking things. People spend most of their time with people that they already know. And even when they’re meeting new people, they usually stick to a script of who are you and what do you do? And then immediately try, and figure out are your prospect or can I help you? Or that sort of thing. And because of that, we don’t really get to understand them multi-facets of people.

David Burkus: And so these shared activities, a shared activity is a term coined by Brian Uzzi and Sharon Dunlap that deals with specific activities that draw diverse sets of new people where there’re three components to it. Where there is an objective other than just knowing people. So in the book, we talk about dinner parties, and the idea that you can cook together. That’s one objective. I was just working with a group last week that really sees their charity work, so they have a Habitat for Humanity. They plan a 5K, all of that as shared activities that draw people from throughout the company. It can be anything where there is that objective.

David Burkus: That objective requires interdependence, so one person can’t do all of the work and then there are stakes to not achieving that objective. That gets people sort of emotionally involved. They have to be involved, they have to be interdependent in order to achieve that objective. And what we find is you build deeper relationships faster with someone. When you put all of that Who are you and what do you do perfect elevator’s pitch stuff to the side, and you focus in on that objective. You end up having different conversations. Conversations where you find the fancy term is uncommon commonalities with people. Stuff that you have in common with them that you never would have expected, and you end up meeting people that are more different than you. Then you would meet if you were just at this networking event, trusting your script to lead you to the right person.

John Jantsch: Yeah, and I mean that can be Comic-Con.

David Burkus: Yeah.

John Jantsch: You know what I mean? You find these people that you never would meet anywhere else, but you have this shared connection. And I think there’s so much more potential in that going beyond the sort of, “I’ve got my armor up,” that happens at a networking event.

David Burkus: Oh, no, I mean, it’s not Comic-Con, but my weird esoteric fact is I’ve trained in Brazilian Jujitsu as a martial art for the last 14 years. And when you find someone, even if like you’re getting the weirdest vibe from them ever, and then you find out that you have that in common, suddenly you’re like, “Oh,” now you’re friends. Right? The only thing I can compare it to is if you’ve ever traveled to a foreign country, and you hear an American accent, even if they’re from Texas and you’re from New York, it’s suddenly like, “Oh, we have this thing in common,” and it only matters because it’s uncommon compared to the people around you.

John Jantsch: David, where can people find out more about Friend of a Friend and your work? I know you’ve got the book on your site.

David Burkus:  Yeah, well I have it on my site, but I’ll tell you if you listen to this show, the best place to find out more about it as the show notes for this episode. Because we’ll link to all that and John wants you to go to those anyway. My website’s davidburkus.com but the easiest thing to do is do want John wants and check out the show notes for this episode because he wants to know you care.

John Jantsch: Man, can you come in the last five minutes of every podcast episode that I [inaudible 00:24:50]? Can I do that because sometimes I even forget to ask? We will definitely have it in the show notes. We love those reviews. We want you to buy David’s book. How’s that?

David Burkus:  I love it. Love it. That’s perfect. You plug my book. I’ll plug your show notes and leave a rating and review. It helps them spread the word about the show, and it helps them know you’re listening.

John Jantsch: Yeah, absolutely. And I went to University of Kansas and did you go to Oral Roberts or is that?

David Burkus: I went as an undergrad at Robertson. I went to grad school at the University of Oklahoma. So we have seen each other on the field of play many times.

John Jantsch: Well, and I think our basketball coach did a stint at Oral Roberts. Didn’t Bill Self coach at Oral Roberts?

David Burkus: Yes, he did.

John Jantsch: It’s kind of where you got to start, I think, isn’t it?

David Burkus: Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch: And then he went back over at Oklahoma State, I think, where he was an undergrad.

David Burkus: Yep.

John Jantsch: Enough of that nonsense. David, was great catching up with you and hope to see you as soon out there on the road in real life so that I can actually be considered part of your network.

David Burkus: There you go. I love it. I love it. I hope that happens soon too. Will talk to you again soon.

from Duct Tape Marketing https://ducttapemarketing.com/transcript-smart-networking/

[613526362]

Banbiba Aldidans

Sitting there on the bench, no one knew who I was. I was just looking at my phone. Then the defendant came out with his girlfriend. They held hands, and kissed. They both seemed like nice people. I kind of liked them. And she was pretty. They had no idea I was about to put him in prison for a long time. If they had known, or their attorneys had known, they would have done something, anything. If they had known I had a flight in a few hours and I would be on that flight whether I testified or not, they would have taken desperate action. They really would have. But no one knew who I was, or what I knew. I was just sitting there, outside the courtroom, some guy on his phone. Redacted A couple hours earlier, they had asked me if I wanted to eat lunch with them. They also said I could just walk down the parking lot to the square if I wanted to instead. I didn't know what to say. I considered the square. Instead I decided to go up with them, but to just to eat a Cliff bar in an office alone. When I pulled out the bar, a police officer saw me and said, "Why don't you come get some pizza? We have a bunch!" He waved me towards him with his hand. Whatever. Everyone sat at the table, but I sat behind, in a row of chairs up against the windows. I was sitting alone, eating pizza, when a man came and sat next to me. He was kind of husky. He had dark glasses. Just like all the other attorneys in the room, he was wearing a suit. He might have been 35. And to complete his description, he, sat next to me. And he started talking to me with, "I don't think I've met you. What was your name?" I was honestly surprised anyone wanted to talk to me. Few of them really knew who I was. We talked for about an hour, mostly about medicine. He had wanted to go to medical school as an undergrad, but decided to go to law school. I had wanted to go to law school as an undergrad, but had gone to med school. We found each other interesting. I made one comment about him being smarter than me because he remembered to grab a napkin for the pizza, and I saw in his face he didn't like that comment. Otherwise our conversation was great. Really, the only two people I've ever met who went to Barvarx - this fellow and one from six years ago - was that they both were friendly, really open, and above all, super eager to listen and learn. Oh wait, Pris Pratrool from high school went there too. And he's an ass. Okay, two out of three. Anyways, let's just say we talked much about nothing for an hour. I learned he was the (redacted) attorney for the county, and he kind of buzzed around to a lot of different cases. He wasn't involved in my case. He was in mid sentence, and I didn't want to be rude, but I had been looking at the time and I realized we were only 30 minutes from when court was to resume. I hated to stop him, but "Speaking of the AD, I really should go review my notes before I testify." And so we parted........or so I thought so we parted.... 10 minutes later, I overheard his voice. I was in a room with the door open, reviewing (redacted) protocols so I would know for sure what to say when cross examined by the defense. The defense had brought in a hot shot attorney from DomeVille who specialized in (redacted), and I was told that he would try to discredit me. Despite that, the AD had not spent any time preparing me to testify. She was knew, and she was flustered. Real flustered. You know, hot mess and all. So I had taken measures into my own hands that morning. I went over to the jail and talked with my old supervisors, I asked them for paperwork and reviewed it, I performed copious online research. I had an idea of what kinds of things he might ask, but I wasn't sure exactly where he was going. That is, until I overheard napkin guy talking a couple rooms over. This is when the tables turned. And oh did they turn drastically. Redacted So, I have to be very careful how I describe what I'm about to describe. It is a murder case - not was, is. It's ongoing, and it will be. And I just fucked up the case a lot. I have to be careful, not only because of that, but also because, the nature of the information I'm about to delve into is very valuable, at least it could potentially be valuable for other cases. If I'm not careful about how I write all this, this shit WILL be in Google, and people will be using it. So here it goes. Redacted He squinted his eyes, and hit me with a stare, before he suddenly said, "You know, there are lots of types of banbiba." Looking up at him from the witness box as the jury looked on, I replied with emphasis, "Yes, but *none* of them grow on the skin." I think that's the moment when he gave up inside. He had been trying for the better part of half an hour to make an argument that a rare type of bungu could actually increase the level of (redacted) in the blood, giving a false result. He was failing in his argument so badly, the entire courtroom was laughing out loud at him. The judge was laughing, the jury was laughing, even the AD and Assistant AD were in shambles. I was not laughing though. A baby died. And this mother fucker specializes in letting baby killers walk away Scott free. More still, he was trying to use me to accomplish that. Oops. You fucked up buddy He tried to make his argument from multiple angles. The first angle was the cleanliness of the environment. Two pivotal moments arose during that direction of argument: 1) So how long ago was the chair cleaned? I don't know. How many people do you do (redacted) tests on? On average, 5-15 a night. So that's a lot of people sitting on that chair! What do you mean? Oh no sir, I'm sorry, I think you're confused. We don't do (redacted) tests on the same chair where our (redacted) patients sit. That room is only for blood draws. Okay, so it looks to me like the prior blood draw you did was 22 hours prior. So had the chair gotten dirty for 22 hours? No sir, because that room isn't used otherwise. So when did you last clean it? It was cleaned after the last patient. How long ago was that? 22 hours? I don't know. Other people worked during the day. They could have used the chair. Just answer the question. When was it last cleaned. After. The Last. Patient. 2) So what do you guys use to clean? Wipes Okay, so your typical disinfectant wipes... No sir, not your typical disinfectant wipes. These are medical-grade wipes designed with multiple chemicals to kill organisms that exist in a medical environment. Okay, so, just tell me this, if someone brought a Subway sandwich and plopped it down on the arm of the chair where you put the defendant's arm to draw blood, would you eat that sandwich? Absolutely. [the jury started laughing very loudly at this point, but as soon as I was able to, I clarified] ......but only because of my time in medical school, and because I understand that the antiseptic wipes work and I don't have to be afraid of things that aren't really there like untrained people are. Redacted Things got much worse than that though. He had drawn a diagram of (redacted) tubes and was trying to talk about the substances in them and how they related to the growth of balberad-fermoantine (redacted) in the tube, but I had made it so clear that such a situation would not result, he kind of imploded his own argument and gave up. But rather than show that to the jury, he jumped to a different topic - cyleaybsurs. Ohhhhhh, but I knew all about cyleaybsurs Redacted So, since you use Barbie, you know that it bubbles. No, I don't agree with that. It doesn't bubble. Of course it does. I've seen it bubble, and everyone in the jury here has seen it bubble. Well, I've actually used Barbie more than you and everyone in the jury here in exactly the manner we're describing, and it doesn't bubble up. So, I've seen it, and the jury all know that when you out Barbie on the skin, it bubbles up. It bubbles up, pushing all the (redacted) and dirt up, and then all that dirt falls down right back where it was, right where you're about to (redacted). He was looking at me. I was looking back. There was a bit of silence. But finally, while staring at him, while he waited for me to say "yes," nod, or really do anything to assist him to his next point along an extremely dubious train of argument, I just said, "That's......... completely incorrect." Redacted It was all pretty unbelievable. I mean, I was thinking I might get in a jab or two, but I didn't expect to shut this dude down on every. single. point. He's supposed to be the best. He is literally the highest paid (redacted) attorney around. You pay him what he asks, and he gets you off. That's how it's supposed to work. But when he walked over to his luggage and pulled out a binder so huge, it must have been 2,000 pages, and opened to the first page (Jesus man, if you had opened to a middle page, I might have bought that. But the first fucking page?), and read off the names of the authors, and asked me if I was familiar with the authors and the article, and asked me if I have read the article and understood what it said about how systemic blood borne Banbiba infections and how Banbiba can increase blood (redacted)... I don't need that article sir. I understand the difference between systemic and localized Banbiba infections. Banbiba grows in the throat, the vagina, and the GI tract. For it to become a systemic infection, he would have needed to be immunocompromised with AIDS that had developed for many years. He'd be dead by now if that was the case. At that point, he was over by his chair, over by the defense's table. He must have seen his chair, and seen how inviting it looked. So he sat down. And then he said, "No further your honor." Out on his desk he had a plepltomu manual, next to his gigantic binders of "medical research." All those papers and books, I bet when he looked at them they didn't seem so cool anymore. I bet he realized, he actually, well, didn't really understand a damn thing in them. Redacted Oh yeah I forgot about how he tried to say that I was (redacted) with a two-day course as my qualification. My training was just so, inadequate. Except that I had gone to EMT school and learned aseptic technique there and Paramedic school and learned aseptic technique there and five different EMS agencies and hospitals, all of which had taught me aseptic technique. "But you don't do blood draws as a paramedic. That's not accurate. I did do blood draws as a paramedic. When I worked for Britt and Brice, I drew tubes on almost every patient." My training was more than adequate, but therein lies the problem. Most of the people he cross-examines in situations like these have "adequate" training. Even if they were "well trained," with good qualifications, they still would have been caught off guard by his arguments. He would have won the case off their inability to show that his arguments were completely medically unfactual. It was only because I was, and am, extremely overqualified that (redacted) (redacted) is going to prison. Redacted An hour earlier, my ears perked up as I heard him talk. The man who had sat next to me at lunch, just a couple rooms over, talking. He was talking about some things I recognized. I heard him say, "Banbiba proteryan." I drew closer to the hall. He was telling some of the police officers exactly what arguments the hot-shot defense attorney was about to make. Back in the day - when he was still in private law - he had gone to a seminar this guy put on about how to beat (redacted) cases. And, well, he remembered a lot from the seminar. I had 15 minutes before I was supposed to testify. But that's all I needed. I pulled up one browser on my phone with Google. I pulled up another with pubmed. I had enough background knowledge on medicine. It was just time to fill in the blanks Redacted I'm told the defense will try to do a mistrial by claiming that I was an expert witness when I was supposed to be normal witness. I have a feeling I won't testify again though. And I have a feeling he will ultimately lose. I understand his crime gets a sentence of between 2 and 20 years. If he gets the higher end of the spectrum, I wonder if his girlfriend will wait for him. I guess if she loves him, she will. Someday maybe I'll see Pandemos again. But before I do, I have a lot more of this to do. I have a lot of good left to do

[ramialkarmi]

The 'messy' way a former Goldman Sachs employee grew a $150 million startup, then turned half his employees into millionaires

Scott Belsky is an early investor in startups such as Uber, Pinterest, and Warby Parker who began his career at Goldman Sachs.

He realized quickly that Goldman wasn't for him, so he spent the next four years saving $18,000. He used the money and some help from those close to him to quit and bootstrap a startup called Behance. Belsky didn't take a paycheck for the next two years.

In the end, the hard work paid off. Adobe purchased Behance for a reported $150 million, and Belsky went out of his way to turn half of his employees into millionaires from the sale.

But he says the sale isn't the interesting part of his story. Instead, it was the stressful "messy middle" years of Behance that defined his career.

Belsky sat down with Business Insider for an episode of our career-focused podcast, "Success! How I Did It," to discuss how he built a $150 million company, how he discovers billion-dollar startups like Uber before anyone else, and how he turned half of his employees into millionaires.

And if you're looking to join a startup, Belsky has advice for you too. He says there's one simple stock-option question everyone needs to ask before accepting a startup job.

Here's the episode (or keep scrolling to read the lightly edited transcription):

Shontell: We have Scott Belsky, a venture partner at Benchmark. He is also an entrepreneur who left Goldman Sachs to start a company called Behance, which was acquired by Adobe for $150 million. He's a best-selling author.

We'll talk about all of that, but first I want to go back to the Goldman days. You graduated from Cornell and went to Goldman Sachs, which is where a lot of people want to build and end their careers — but not you.

Scott Belsky: In 2001, 2002, I wanted to be in business and was looking for an internship or a full-time job. And people say, "You have to cut your teeth on Wall Street," especially if you were on the East Coast back then. And so I did — I migrated to a very mundane job on the trading floor at Goldman Sachs.

It was the 50th floor of 1 New York Plaza at the time, and it definitely did whip me into professional shape. I learned a lot about how the markets work and certainly improved my finance skills. A year and a half in, I realized this was not where I was going to spend my career.

Shontell: And you stayed for four years?

Belsky: Yes. So when I realized that I said, "OK, finance is not my thing." I had a design background from undergrad, and I was interested in flexing some of those muscles as well as learning about how a company is run. I was fascinated with leadership development and succession planning.

There was a job that opened up in the executive office that was focused on organizational improvement and succession planning, and they needed an analyst-level person to come in and help. I thought that was such a cool opportunity to be a fly on the wall, seeing how the firm was run. So I did that and then I stayed for three years before going to business school and starting my company.

How a Goldman Sachs employee launched a bootstrapped startup with $18,000 — then survived without a paycheck for 2 years

Shontell: So you had a plan in the works and you were squirreling away money with the hopes of someday starting your own thing?

Belsky: Yes. When I was in the second job at Goldman, I was learning so much. I had a group of colleagues I really looked up to who were mostly academics. In the world of leadership development I worked with people like Jack Welch at GE, that sort of thing. And then at night I was kind of working my own ideas.

Things really got real in 2004, or early 2005, when I met another designer by the name of Matias Corea. And he and I started having a bottle of wine at night at 9 p.m. after work and sketching out this idea for what would ultimately become Behance.

Shontell: So what is Behance? Or what was it? Is it still around?

Belsky: It is still around, and it's now a network of over 10 million creatives all around the world showcasing their work and getting jobs and opportunities and that sort of thing. It's probably the largest creative professional network in the world at this point.

And so the idea behind Behance was to put up your work, have your own personal portfolio hosted on your own domain, but also to have all that portfolio content categorized and organized for people to find it and give you jobs.

Shontell: So, when you were starting this company — which sounds extremely different than being an analyst — it was not cool to leave Wall Street for a startup. You were one of the first, and then there was this wave of people moving from Wall Street into tech. Was that scary?

Belsky: It's strange thinking back about how scared I was to leave this comfortable womb of Goldman Sachs, where I had healthcare and all of these little perks. I felt like I was in the mix in New York, being employed. And to explain to people that I was leaving with this idea just didn't make sense to most. So I more often told them I was leaving to go to business school. Which in some ways was a hedge. It was, "If this idea doesn't work out, at least I can probably get a job again, because they'll have seen me go to business school, which is somewhat normal."

Shontell: Do you think the business-school era of your career was necessary?

Belsky: It's a great question. I would say it's like 51-49% I can't regret the relationships I made and certainly some of the things that I learned. Also I would say that business school does not add a lot of credibility in my field of technology and entrepreneurship, and I don't find that it gives me a ton of value.

I also think that it's really helpful to learn the playbooks of the past, but when you're really, really innovating at the edge of an industry, the playbooks of the past also can paralyze you. And so maybe it's a help to understand them, but sometimes being naïve at the top of the funnel of doing something is helpful. You know, it almost makes you think that there's potential beyond what's been done before. And when you know too much about an industry you get scared away from it.

Shontell: And I assume you went to Harvard, just because you're so successful?

Belsky: Yes. Actually, there's this woman named Teresa Amabile who is a professor at Harvard focusing on creativity in business. And so I actually emailed her before I even applied anywhere and tried to ask her about her research, and if I got in would I be able to work with her? And she was like, yeah sure, if you can get in, call me.

And so I only applied to Harvard and with the explicit reason of working with her. My essays were actually about building this company to organize the creative world. And I'm sure they were like, I don't know who this kid is, but he definitely knows who he wants to work with and what he wants to do with it. That probably helped me, because my scores were not very good.

Shontell: So let me get this straight. You were a Harvard guy and a Goldman Sachs guy, and you chose to bootstrap your startup when you started Behance. You probably could have raised money, I would assume, with that background, from a good number of VCs.

It's kind of like being a Google engineer — it seems like the money just sort of rains down on you when you're looking for a seed round. So why did you put that burden on yourself financially? Why bootstrap?

Belsky: I think there were two reasons. One was probably I just wanted to control my own destiny at that point, and I wasn't sure whether ... This might be a lifestyle business. I mean we started ... We always liked to say we were medium-agnostic but mission-centric, so the mission was to organize the creative world, but we would do it through any medium possible, whether it was a book or a conference or a blog or a technology like the Behance network. And so I knew that was really a red flag to VCs, who would say: "Oh, not focused. We're not going to invest in a company that's going to spend the money on producing a conference."

I knew that that just didn't resonate. And so I said to myself, OK, I want to control my own destiny here, and I want to be able to do these things because I think they're important for our brand. And also I want to allow for the ability for this to maybe be a lifestyle business, where we provide for the team and everyone can make a decent living, and we don't have anyone else owning our equity.

Shontell: And so how long was it that you went without a paycheck?

Belsky: I went without a paycheck for about two years.

Shontell: And your family was cool with it? They're fine — it wasn't scary?

Belsky: I had money saved up from Goldman. I had been there for about 4 1/2 years. I had family that was willing to kind of help me on my rent and stuff like that, so I certainly wasn't on my own completely, but I definitely had a small bank-account balance. And I was definitely always saying to myself, "OK, when am I going to have to get a 'real' job?"

It got to the point where I just wanted the business to succeed so much that I remember actually not even reimbursing myself for taxi receipts because I'd be like, OK, I just want these numbers to look as great as possible. And the least that I can take out of the business, helps us kind of show that the business is working. And I also just wanted to make sure that the team was as comfortable as they could be in this period of time where there was so much uncertainty, and we weren't really making it yet.

Shontell: And so at two years, is that when you, I assume, started making money? Because to me, sounds great to connect the world's creative people, but it's not obvious how you're going to make money with that. So how did you kind of get the ball rolling there?

Belsky: Our first product ever was six months after the company was sort of officially founded in late 2005, and this was a paper product line. And so they were basically a design line of paper products that I actually used to design for myself when I was at Goldman. And it had a really defined area where you capture actionable items, and a sketch area, and the idea was to push designers towards capturing actionable stuff that came out of meetings and brainstorms.

And so we put this line out there and Matias helped do the final design and make it look good. We got it printed by a printer in Massachusetts, and we got featured on some blogs like Cool Hunting and a few others right away. And immediately there was this loyal following of people who were purchasing these products. And so that was when we first had revenue, and then as that scaled up, and we had a retail distribution channel as well, I said OK, I should probably take a little bit of salary to pay my bills. And then that led to conference, led to us being signed with Federated Media alongside Business Insider and other early publications to get ad deals for the pageviews we were amounting. And this is back in the day when there were good CPMs (cost per thousand ad views) for things like that.

Shontell: Definitely. Yeah, so for people who don't remember who Federated Media was, it was basically the way your company, our company, TechCrunch, Bleacher Report, all of the great sites that were founded I feel like in 2007, 2008, or even a little bit before were funded by this company, Federate Media, who would sell ad deals for you when you didn't have a sales team yourself.

Belsky: Exactly, which we didn't. And for a medium-agnostic platform like us, we didn't have an ads sale team of course, so that was a perfect partner at the time. And that's we bootstrapped the business, and it was really hand-to-mouth type of activity. We were always maybe a few months away from not making payroll. It made us really feel the granularity of our business, and it was extraordinarily tough.

Shontell: Did you have some sort of benchmark in your mind where you're like, OK, if I'm not at this point by this amount of time, I'm just pulling the plug and going back to corporate America?

Belsky: That's a really good question. No. I didn't. And also, and this is crazy, but until we raised venture funding five years into the business, I had never had a conversation with my team about an exit of any sort. Even Matias and I were the first two people there, we never even over coffee said, "Well, should we ever exit?" It just never was in our lexicon until we had these meetings with investors. We just were loving what we were doing. We felt like it was important. We felt like design was becoming a competitive advantage in the business world. And we said OK, if we're the number one platform for designers and design is becoming the competitive advantage, we're going to be fine.

Shontell: And so how did bootstrapping for all those years, and then you later raised money from Square Ventures and a few others, how did that help your terms with venture capitalists?

Belsky: Well it helped extremely — I don't advise people to do this, because there were many near-death experiences. I do believe that we in some ways squeezed blood from stone at times and maybe survived at times we shouldn't have. So I don't think it's wise, per se. However, it's one of those things where if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. And so five years in, we were a breakeven business. We had a team of over 15 people probably. We had a brand that was established. We had a network that was rapidly growing. We went to raise money, and we could do it on our own terms. And we only sold a very small percentage of the company, because we had earned that right. But I don't know if the odds were ever, you know, good enough to have made that decision wisely.

Shontell: So, what are some of these near-death experiences?

Belsky: Ad deals falling through and realizing, oh, our three months of runway just went down to 1 1/2. Or people not paying their bills. Not being able to hire certain people that you needed because you didn't have the cash to do it. The downturn of 2008, when things just kind of went south. And I was doing some of these little speaking things for companies on helping them have better-organized design teams, and suddenly the budgets go away for something like that. Realizing we built our network wrong, basically had to recode the whole thing because it wasn't scalable. Or that we signed on to the wrong hosting partner and realized, oh shit, they're not going to be able to scale us either.

It's all of those things, that each one of it — it's sort of like death by a thousand paper cuts in some way, but also at times we just realized oh my goodness, this may not work. And we just persisted. I think it was the team, and the culture, and the fact that we really liked working together. Also, we were in New York, where people weren't always buzzing about like, another company just got funded, or, another job at Facebook they could get. There was a degree of loyalty that I think was essential in New York uniquely, to keep our team together long enough to survive.

Shontell: One benefit that you get when you have a team of investors, and I guess you had a board probably, but when you get investors there's strategic investors. They can help make connections for you; they can help advocate your brand; they can be someone to vent to all the time. How did you get through those highs and lows when you're bootstrapping and you don't necessarily have access to all that?

Belsky: Well I think as the leader of a company it's always lonely. And you look for mentors and other people that you can go to for specific things, and I think I did that. I didn't have anyone that I could just tell everything to and who could just be there shoulder to shoulder with me, until we actually raised money and I had the USV and other folks in the circle. I think I was just really selective about it, and it was really lonely. It was anxiety-filled, and I also believe that as an entrepreneur one of the greatest costs is the constant processing of uncertainty that your brain is managing. It's almost like dedicating 20% of your RAM to one task that is always running. And you're never as present with your family, or your friends, and you're always just processing. And I think that's really, really hard, but it's part of the cognitive costs you pay.

The 'messy middle' of a startup no one ever talks about

Shontell: And so part of the reason why I'm touching on this is that you've kind of coined a term for all this called the messy middle.

Belsky: Yeah.

Shontell: Which is something that the press doesn't really get to write about or doesn't write about very much. It's usually the launch, or the ending of a startup when you sell, or something like that, or going under. But there's all these things that happen in the middle of a startup that are really hard for entrepreneurs to grapple with.

Belsky: I'm glad you ask about it — it's my obsession lately and over the years. Which is that the press and media, and everyone else, loves covering the romanticism of the start, when people quit their jobs and start something and launch a new idea or raise some funding. And then we also love covering and talking about the finish, whether it's an acquisition or an IPO, or a bankruptcy. Or a legal investigation. These are piffy headlines that people love to write about. What doesn't get covered really as often is just everything that happens, as like you said, in the messy middle. And all of that is really, in my mind, two things. It's endurance. It's enduring the amenity and the uncertainty and the lack of rewards, or financial rewards, or customers — or anyone telling you you're doing a good job or anyone even knowing what you're doing. And then it's enduring that, and hacking yourself and your team to be able to withstand that.

And then it's also optimization. It's constantly optimizing anything that actually is working, like the way your team is working, the way you're hiring, the way you are working and being productive. Optimizing your product or service, constantly making it better. When anyone says they liked it for some reason you accentuate that. All of those things make up the optimization side of the messy middle. And I just think it's one of those parts of the journey — not only entrepreneurs but artists and anyone else that people seldom talk about.

Shontell: So the press person in me, titling this podcast would probably be something like, "Man puts $18,000 into startup." That was your initial investment, wasn't it?

Belsky: Yeah.

Shontell: And turns it into, dun dun duh, the end, the 150-million-plus sales to Adobe.

Belsky: Which tells you absolutely nothing, right? The writer in me would also look for the same, piffy, whatever. But in truth, that was so sort of ancillary to all of the real calculus. In the real strokes of fate and luck, and individuals that joined our team, that made all the difference. And there are probably at least a dozen or so people that without any one of them, the stars would not have aligned and Behance would have never succeeded.

Shontell: Well we do have to talk about the ending a little bit.

Belsky: Sure.

How a giant startup acquisition actually happens

Shontell: So, you did end up getting this great exit to Adobe. How did that come about? You guys had been partners for a while. How long had you been talking to Adobe? How does a deal like that come to be?

Belsky: Yeah, well, there's always a relationship. And my attitude was we were never looking to sell the company. We were never really thinking about--

Shontell: People always say that, but if you're a first-time founder, it's hard to not imagine what it would be like.

Belsky: But also is in vogue to never think about it too.

Shontell: Right.

Belsky: I mean you just, you had this idea of, oh, well, you know Facebook never thought about that, and like, I'm just going to stay focused on the long term.

Shontell: I'm sure he thought about that when Yahoo came around.

Belsky: Probably.

Shontell: I think he was pretty close.

Belsky: Well when you get an offer you do think about it. But before you get an offer, you just tell yourself you're in it for the long haul. You have a vision of what this is going to look like years from now, and anything that gets in the way of that, including talking to Corp Dev people and stuff, is sort of noise. And so I really didn't like these sorts of conversations, but sometimes there were partners where I said OK, they could do an ad buy. They could do a partnership where we could get people who download their products to automatically sign up for Behance portfolio. There are a lot of things like that.

When Adobe decided to make the switch from software to service, and really literally overnight that flipped a switch, and they became one of the largest SAS businesses on Wall Street. Over a billion dollars and annual ARR in annual occurring revenue, they realized that they needed a network at the center of their offering. And we were the really best alternative out there, aside from building it. And so it became very clear to me that we were very strategic, that we would not be a tech acquisition, or something that was broken up. We would be like a core, product-strategy acquisition.

I loved the team that I was working with there when I was starting to really get to know them. And then from the financial perspective, the question was — it was really a simple math problem. It was basically OK, we've taken very little dilution. We've only done one round of funding and it was small. The team owns a big percentage of the company, and if we don't do this now, we're going to have to probably do a B and C. We're going to take this much more dilution — we're going to take this much more market risk for a team that's already been together for five-plus years.

There's a lot of risk there, and if you actually do the math and start to think about it, the outcome of this acquisition versus waiting for five more years and potentially getting bought for $500 or $11 billion. It's actually the same. It's literally the same. And the question is, well, if that's a really good outcome from an investor perspective, and we think it's a really great acquirer, and we're going to be really centralized and empowered at this company, maybe this is our parent. Maybe this is meant to be.

Shontell: You know I think there's a good point in that. If you look at the exits of Huffington Post versus TechCrunch, Huffington Post sells for $300 plus million; TechCrunch $20 million to $30 million. But both Mike Arrington, the founder of TechCrunch, and Arianna Huffington, the cofounder of Huffington Post, made about the same. They both walked away with about $10 million or so, I think were the reports.

Belsky: I wrote an article recently about the sort of unicorn space that — it was also shared with Business Insider, and you guys were generous enough to republish it. And it was really about this question of the economics of these financings and trying to get employees to understand the ramifications of these things. Obviously the billion-dollar acquisition sounds amazing, compared to a $100 million acquisition or $20 million acquisition. But when you actually, as you're saying, do the math, you start to realize it's all about not only the dilution but also the terms of the financings that these companies have done and what the liquidation preferences are. And there's a lot of other math that happens where — I remember when Tumblr got acquired for $1 billion. There were people who didn't get much of anything that worked there, right? And you see, I hear those stories all the time. So it should really be about the mechanics of the company, and the decisions that were made in the financings and less so that total number that the press likes to cover.

The one stock-option question everyone should ask before accepting a job at a startup

Shontell: So, talk a little bit about what employees can do to realize what kind of a situation they're in when they join a startup. What questions should they be asking? What do they need to know about stock options? How do you know if — you know it sounds great when your company raises $50 million to $100-plus million, but what does that actually do to you?

Belsky: Sure. The two things that I think are important are one, is to realize that when you're joining a startup the likely outcome is nothing. And even if the company does OK and has an exit, if you're a later-stage employee, you should really be making sure that you get an experiential education that is extremely rewarding, first and foremost. But if you are sacrificing salary, you have a right to upside. And you also have a right to understand what your upside might be.

And so rather than suggest to every engineer or designer or anyone else out there to get copies of term sheets and look — I mean it's really hard to do all that stuff and to ask a million questions. You're probably not going to get far in the interview process if those are your questions. But what you can do, when it's in the final stage of accepting an offer, is you can ask a simple question. Based on the equity you're offering me, what would my stake be worth if the company were acquired for $200 million, for $500 million, for $1 billion? Just ask that question.

Your answer might be that if it's acquired for $200 million, your stake is worth zero. If it's acquired for $500 million, your stake is worth zero. And if it's acquired for $1 billion, your stake is worth $100,000. Or whatever. But at least that answer can give you some sense of really what's going on. And I think that's the company's obligation to at least give you some directional guidance on what the likely value of your equity would be in those circumstances, and those are the questions people should ask.

Shontell: And any negotiating tips if you do hear that what you're being offered is zero?

Belsky: Well I think that just having that knowledge allows you to say something like, "Well, if the company were to be acquired for $1 billion and my equity is worth zero, maybe my salary should be a little higher," right? So it's that kind of calculus. Recently an entrepreneur called me with an acquisition offer from one of these unicorn companies. And he said it was like an $85 million acquisition offer for a company that had raised basically seed funding. And he was really psyched about it.

And he had not even asked these questions yet. And when he did, because I said to him, if you got your company acquired right now for $85 million in equity from this unicorn company, and you found out that they ended up exiting at the valuation they raised their last financing at, ask them like how much you would end up getting. And he ended up learning that it was basically nothing. And he didn't go through with it. So, I think he could've negotiated a much larger acquisition price I think based on that. But he chose not to just proceed at all. I think these are the types of questions and they open up obviously the types of negotiating points you could pursue.

Shontell: Are companies obligated to tell you?

Belsky: I don't think they're obligated to. But then as a prospective employee, you can decide whether you want to work for them or not. And that's just part of the calculus.

How to sell your startup for $150 million and turn half your employees into millionaires

Shontell: So one thing that you did when you were selling the company is you actually went out of your way to make sure that a lot of your employees were in good shape financially. Not something that you legally had to do — you actually looked at how many options they had been granted and how much they would make from the sale. I think you had a spreadsheet, right? Where you said like, OK, this is how much they have, and here's how much I think they deserve. Talk me through that, because that's very admirable. You don't hear a lot of people doing things like that.

Belsky: Well I'll tell you what, I first of all, selfishly, that was one of the most important things I ever did. Because I have a team of people that I got to continue working with for another three years at Adobe, and we were all rewarded again for the work that we did because we stuck together. It was like a long-term greedy decision I would say, because when everyone feels like they're taken care of, they're more loyal, and they stay engaged and focused on the right things. And you can have what I like to call second coming at Adobe, which is, just you know, doing something all over again and making an impact and being rewarded for it.

I also think that I've already realized that those sorts of stories get out. I want to admit that there is a selfish side to that, right?

Shontell: Yes, but if you had your $100 million exit or whatever you could ride off into a sunset and never worry about if you piss people off or not.

Belsky: I think that that happens too often, and I think that there's something about the values of an entrepreneur should be. That you should be able to look at everyone that's worked for you, look at them in the eye, and know that they feel like you took care of them. And I think it's like the stewardship role of an entrepreneur is to take care of your team. And I think that goes through in difficult times as well as in great times.

My math is very simple. I looked through the whole roster of everyone on our team--

Shontell: And how many people were there?

Belsky: So at the time of acquisition maybe like, 27, 32, I forget. That's something in the high 20s or low 30s. And what I did as an exercise with Will Allen, our COO, at the time, is I said OK, what would be the re-up grants that we're going to give all these people over the next two to three years? And let's assume that all of them had vested over those two or three years, and we had sold the company for $150 million, $200 million, what would their stake be worth?

And the let's make sure that's what they get out of this acquisition. So I can go to all of them and say this is what your equity would've been that you were going to get over the next couple of years. This is what it would all be worth once it's all vested. I want to make sure you have that now, and so for the next three years we can make some of the greatest work of our lives and we can all feel like this is resolved and exceeded our expectations. And we did that for every single member of the team.

Shontell: So you basically accelerated the vesting process?

Belsky: So we accelerated their unvested equity, as well as allocated additional value across the board to people, based on what we felt like their future grant would have been. For example, we had some incredible engineers who had joined us just six or eight months ago but really made the difference between this deal maybe happening or not. But none of their equity had been vested, and they'd only gotten one grant so far. And we wanted them to be a part of the team for years. And we figured if we could just synthetically make them realize that they were kind of getting what they would've gotten as sort of locked in, with some retention of course, some retention incentive that we could do that.

And so it kept the team together at the expense of some of the return to the investors and myself. And one thing I have to say about square ventures is I had one call with them, where I told them this and it was basically millions of dollars off the top in return for them — they were totally OK with it. And supportive.

Shontell: So you have to get by from your investors and the company that's buying you to do this. And I guess for some entrepreneurs, it's an acquire situation where they might not have the most negotiating power during a sale, but--

Belsky: In our case we did, but Adobe loved this idea, because this is to their benefit. I mean if you think about it, they were having less money go in my pocket and investor's pockets, and they were having more money going into the team with some retention incentive. So to them it was like, yeah sure, this is great. It was really the sell to the investors that I was worried about, but they were supportive.

Shontell: So it ended up being that about half of those people, like a dozen or so, became millionaires in the sale. Which is pretty amazing. So half of your team.

Belsky: Right. A million more. And it was great. I mean it's really rewarding. And I will never forget the conversations I had with each person, where I knew about each of their situations: I knew about their college loans. I knew a lot about these things because as a bootstrap business, you get very intimate with people's financial situations because you're working with them to figure out what will make it work. And to deliver that news and see their faces, and share it also with the whole team, is probably one of the most emotional moments of my life.

How Scott Belsky discovered and invested in Uber, Pinterest, and Warby Parker before everyone else

Shontell: I want to switch gears, put your other hat on a little bit, and talk about your investing that you do. Since you've left Adobe, you were an executive there for a couple of years after the sale. You joined Benchmark as a partner, and you're a venture partner with them. But you've always been a seed investor for as long as I've known you, anyhow. And a couple notable things that you've invested in very, very early on are Uber, Pinterest, Warby Parker, Periscope, which sold to Twitter before it really even launched. So how do you find these things? And what are you looking for in entrepreneurs to know if they're going to win?

Belsky: Well, I think — you know, I like to say that a labor of love always pays off. And when I meet entrepreneurs that excite me, solving problems that are interesting to me, and they allow me to roll up my sleeves and take in a product a little bit, I geek out over it. And I get involved, and if I can, I put in money. And that's sort of in my seed-investor playbook, right? To be honest. And of course when one of those companies does well, then you get more, as they call it in the industry, deal flow. Because people who know you were involved with say, Uber, then say OK, well do you want to see this? Do you want to see that?

So I've enjoyed that part of life and have dedicated some percentage of my energy towards investing and working with these really sage teams. I think I went into the full-time general-partner role at first at Benchmark. My assumption was that my love of that would be a proxy for me loving the traditional investor job at a kind of classic venture-capital firm, and I just realized that they're actually very different. And while there's some of that that you would do, being at a VC firm, I just like the flexibility and the creativity. And the problems that are faced at an earlier seed stage versus like the late stage, postmomentum, series A or series B, that a firm like Benchmark traditionally does. And so that's why I am spending more of my time on the earlier-stage, venture-partner-type deals now.

And what do you look for? You look for a team that is really receptive to feedback, really not just passionate but also empathetic with the customer. That's really one of the biggest mistakes I see in entrepreneurship, is a team that's super passionate about a solution, but they really don't have empathy with the people that they're targeting.

Shontell: So what was the first meeting you had with Pinterest? Ben Silbermann, the CEO there, finds you. He's in New York; you're in New York. What happens?

Belsky: Well he was building a product that was grid-centric, from a design perspective, and Behance was always also a grid of projects. He also realized that the most valuable pins were well designed. They were beautiful pieces of art and design and whatever and--

Shontell: But this is back in what year? People didn't even know what pins were.

Belsky: Yeah, this is so when, 2010? Pinterest was already live and already getting some traction in unexpected places like middle America, not popular at all in Silicon Valley. But he had always a design sensibility, and he was going around New York meeting people for product advice. And we were introduced by — actually one of our interns who was like, oh, I know a guy who knows a guy who's here, he's building this. And I looked at it, and was like, "Oh, this makes a lot of sense." And so we just spent a couple hours brainstorming around on mechanics of pinning something and following somebody. And maybe automatically following their boards versus just following certain boards, and the problems, and that sort of thing. And he was actually trying to raise a seed round and was struggling to do so. I think that was why he was in New York in the first place.

Shontell: I remember a story that he told to I think Y Combinator people where — he said I walked into a VC meeting and everybody was in there, and I was so excited because I thought they were here to hear my idea. And then I realized there was a, like, plate of cookies on the table, and as soon as all the cookies were gone, all the people left.

Belsky: They could leave. Right.

Shontell: So yeah, it was not a layup bet that you made then.

Belsky: First of all, Pinterest has always been an underdog and still is today somehow. But he is extraordinarily anchored with what his product does for its users. He's also one of those people that's always thinking about process as well as product. And you ask him what his goals are, sometimes they're actually even more processed goals for how his team can better function and perform than they are what the product can become. He's extremely mission-driven, and those are the things that excited me during that time with him. And so even though I had no business seed investing in 2010, believe me, I was barely making a salary at the time, but I told them I'd put in some money. And I also I wanted to just stay involved with the product conversation. It was one of those things where I just wanted to have another conversation like this and realize if I wasn't an investor, it would be harder to do so.

The first version of Uber seemed like a terrible idea — here's why Scott invested anyway

A similar story with Garrett Camp. Which also happened in 2010, where he and I were doing deals together because he was the CEO of StumbleUpon, which he had recently repurchased from eBay. And StumbleUpon was one of the biggest driver of traffic to Behance. And some of the best-performing stumbles were photography projects on Behance. And so we were doing some type of ad credit deals together and at the end of the meeting he actually whips out one of our notebooks and shows me this diagram that he had made of the Uber prototype. Which wasn't Uber at the time — he was going to call it Uber Cab, and it was basically a livery service. And he was asking me if I wanted to help on some product and brand stuff, and just be like one of the New York people to help them out. And my first blush response was, What're you doing? You just bought back your company, and you're now CEO and trying to grow it, and I'm an entrepreneur as well. Like why are you building a livery service?

Shontell: Yeah, and back in those days I think it was Black Cars for the 1%. So does that sound like a good idea to an investor? When I heard it I was like ugh, what is this company?

Belsky: I just remember back to my Goldman Sachs days — I remember the slips that I used to always have to give the driver, who would then send back to firm, that would come to accounting, and they'd go to my assistant, and then they go back to me for every Black Car I took. And so I figured OK, maybe you can streamline that process, but good luck getting a firm like Goldman Sachs to work with you on this little mobile app. But again, it was the product problems that they were trying to solve, the back and forth that engaged me. And I just started to feel some sense of connection to the prototype and this concept. And then your mind starts to run, it's like well, what if all transportation was done this way? What would that mean for other things like delivery? It's always exciting when you open up a product problem and then it becomes this Pandora's box of opportunity and questions. And that's one of the things I look for when I meet an entrepreneur.

Advice for aspiring entrepreneurs, and tips on how to land an investment

Shontell: So now that you've helped a lot of companies with early-stage deals and you've been a seed investor yourself, what advice do you have for people who are looking to raise their first round, trying to navigate the whole venture-capital scene, figuring out how to get endorsed, how to negotiate terms?

Belsky: Well I think that the meeting with individual investor angel-types who really you can tell a story to that they can resonate with, you can get them excited about some problem that you're solving, when you do that, those people have great connections to other firms. I have a lot of different firms in the seed and later stages that I collaborate with, but it's based on what the company is doing, what the story is, and who the people are. And then I say in my head OK, who would be the perfect person to extend this conversation and bring it to another level? And presumably invest.

And so I do find one role that I play as early-seed-angel type is to help people find their match from a larger raised perspective. So I do think you should target angels, and I stay away from angel groups, because I find that it's more about the money and less about the story and one to one mentorship and resonance in terms of chemistry. I think that individuals, in my biased opinion, are the way to go. I also think that having a really good splash page that just emphasizes what your go to market is and the marketing copy. All that stuff matters not only for potential customers but for investors who get a pitch and then just go to the website URL. It's amazing how many times you'll get a deck or a one-pager, but then you'll go to the URL and there's like nothing there, or even if the company's launched, there's just not really established and updated yet. And it's like well, that should always be a perfect representation of your story, because your go to market matters. That's what people are investing in you in the first place.

Shontell: So know you've got also this great view of the landscape of what's happening in Silicon Valley and the tech world in general. What sort of trends are you seeing? Are you seeing entrepreneurs all starting to tackle one thing? Another thing that's happening in the valley is we had all this investment flowing through, and you had all these companies become unicorn billion-plus-valuation companies. And that seems to have slowed, so how do you look at the trends of what people are building, and how do you look at what's happening in the venture-capital landscape?

Belsky: I'm seeing a lot more of companies building things off of the address book rather than off of Facebook or other established social graphs.

Shontell: So through your iPhone, address book, contact list, what are people kind of working on in that space?

Belsky: I think anything can be built — that is ultimately the source of truth of your network, right? Is who you have a connection to via email or phone. And if the quality of the connection matters more than the number of connections, which I think is another trend by the way, that real connection over mass connection. Facebook is really just about the number; LinkedIn, or whatever. But when it comes to commerce and collaboration and working together, whatever, your network is basically already in your phone. And so I think more products are being built off of that, and so I think there's options there whether it's marketplaces or different things like that.

I also think that we're seeing — the whole live-video phenomenon is exciting to me, but the potential of it is always killed by notifications that just drive us crazy. And so I actually think one of the other sort of auras or levels of innovation is around notifications themselves. How can we make them smart and intelligent? What if you were only notified about something when artificial intelligence knew that you cared about it? And so whenever you're at work, it just didn't notify you about stuff. But whenever you were moving in a car and they knew you were idle and just like hanging out, suddenly you got notifications that your friends were live about something. That should be happening, and it's not yet. And I think insights like that around media and the core operating system that we use will unlock things like live video and other sorts of new modern social networks.

It's a great time to start a company, but expect a 'reckoning' in Silicon Valley

Shontell: And what about what's happening broadly in the tech world right now? You have companies that are raising tons of money, they're waiting a really long time to go public — there's just a lot happening. How do you look at that? Do you think that some of these unicorn companies are going to die? Like what's the danger of over raising, and what are the struggles there?

Belsky: I think that we're going to see a lot of them die. They're going to happen at moments where they're not able to raise another round, because of the climate or because they've just raised too much at this point, or they've exhausted any investors that would be willing to. And then they're going to realize that their unit economics need to come into check, and so they're going to stop spending so much money to acquire new customers, which means that their new-customer numbers are going to go down, which means that their valuation is going to go down.

Which mean that even if they're good companies, they're going to get acquired or go public at a much lower valuation than they last raised. Which means a lot of employees will not get the return they were hoping, which means that they will leave.

You can kind of play that out, and you can see that there will be a reckoning, where there will be a lot of M&A activity that a lot of investors and employees will not benefit from, and some companies will probably just go under. And it's just kind of inevitable — I actually don't see how that could not happen.

Shontell: So is now then a good time or a terrible time to start a company?

Belsky: I think it's a great time to start a company.

Because again, it's easier than ever to start something. It is getting increasingly harder to scale, but if you start something that really needs to exist, you will find your audience for it. There are so many new modern ways of raising money like AngelList and crowdfunding. You know, there was this new upstart publication called The Hustle that just raised $300,000 of seed funding in one day from their users, from their readers. You're going to see more things like that happen, and that's exciting. And I think that a lot of them will not work, and some of them will, but the point is that it's great time to take that idea that you have and see if it has legs.

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