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clydesavage-thefox147 · 3 months ago

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Virgil and Orange Side: More Than meets the Fiery Eyes? (Theory)

[All words underlined contain links to articles and videos. This is a long one so, buckle up. I had to do this one, It's been waiting for too long.]

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So, in recent years, a theory has spread around about Patton having some form of connection with the Orange Side. However, I personally believe that the theory doesn't hold enough truth. The only pieces of evidence I've seen pushed are the small connection through the emotions, the singular frame in Logic Vs Passion, and the song “Oranges” from Patton's playlist. Though, nothing significant has really stuck out to make this idea plausible yet. Honestly, it sounds like a reskin of an older theory that Virgil was Patton’s son because of emotional connections. While I'll not count out the Patton/Orange connection entirely, the likelihood is slim.

However, I would like to propose a different theory. What if...the Orange Side…is Virgil's brother? I have many pieces of evidence to back up this claim. Orange doesn't necessarily have to be Virgil's brother per say, but definitely could have a stronger connection than to that of any other side.

For starters, Let's look at their jobs/titles. We all know that Virgil is Anxiety by this point right? And, with recent videos framing Orange as Anger mainly, it's safe to say that this will be his primary force. Both Anger and Anxiety begin with ‘An’, that's a start. Anger and Anxiety are both triggered by what is known as "Agitated Unease". Any level of stressful situation heightens both your cortisol and adrenaline levels. Both of these chemicals control Anger and Anxiety. Stressful situations heighten our fight or flight response, which can result in frustration and aggression. “Fight Anxiety” specifically comes with hostility, agitation, irritability, argumentativeness and can sometimes lead to physical altercations in extreme cases. Anger for an anxious person is a way of keeping control of a situation they feel they have none in. Often, if anxiety is unaddressed or ignored, the person will refer to anger and frustration unconsciously as both a defense tactic but also an attention grabber. In other cases, anxiety can be repressed by one's own anger. Especially, when one is told that showing fear is a sign of weakness. So, in response, they turn to aggression as a front or a mask. This however is harmful and can lead to them losing sight of why they were even angry in the first place. Anger can actually lead to worsened anxiety when you end up regretting how you lashed out and fear hurting your loved ones. But, Anxiety can recruit Anger in serious circumstances. Since Fight Response is basically anger, it's a defense. Anger and Anxiety are both in the amygdala. This is where your ‘primal emotions’ are. Emotions like anger, fear and lust are all important for survival. And, if you sense danger or a threat, your first response more or less would be to defend yourself physically. So, as much as anxiety can be hindered or negatively affected by Anger, it can also work with it like a tag team or a rocky relationship. In an article from Psychology Today, it described Anger as “Anxiety with a Chemical Kick” or “Turbocharged Anxiety”. Meaning, that Anger feeds off Anxiety or vice versa. That same article described Anger as just “repressed or unacknowledged anxiety”. It also explains how anger and anxiety could be present in abusive relationships. Many other articles such as one from HealthLine says that anxiety in moments of high alert can actually morph into anger and also described anger as a more chemically charged version of anxiety. It also spoke on the fact that anger is often at the root of anxiety and vice versa. In another article from PsychCentral, it describes anger as not necessarily a symptom of anxiety, but a sibling to it. Anger and Anxiety also share similar physical symptoms as well like fast heart rate, sweating, chest tightness and heavy breathing. Anger and Anxiety’s only differences are that anger is a reactive emotion, while anxiety is anticipatory and anger is mostly from a feeling of injustice or defense, and anxiety is the feeling of being unprepared. But overall, anger and anxiety are practically interchangeable.

Now, how does this all connect to Virgil? Well, from the beginning, Virgil came off initially as cocky, blunt and defensive. It was as if he was trying to be threatening and scary which he did succeed for a while. However, when he realized that his actions were going too far, he backed off. He later expressed how his aggressive ways were a way to keep everyone's guard up but also how he had overstepped the approach and persona. He knows he can't be too overwhelming because it's a problem, but being underwhelming can also be a problem. He needs a balance. That's why, in Embarrassing Phases, he wanted to scare them because he was fearful that his methods weren't effective anymore and he lost touch. It also didn't help with Patton softening him so much in LNTAO and Phases either. However, in Phases he said “When you try to deny me, I get frustrated and I lash out”, this is in line with how repressing anxiety and ignoring it can make it try harder to be heard. In LNTAO, Virgil’s verse in Incomplete spoke on something similar. Quote: “You once knew me as real gloomy, this weird spooky broody dude because I knew you'd listen to me as too scary to ignore. I thought that I could take it, all the hate could just be shaken but when you lo-Care for someone not much hurts more than their scorn, I also felt bad. But in a different way, by bad I mean well mean but I did what I thought that I had too, which is bad to, I don't have to act all tough-” He's realizing he doesn't also have to come off as tough in order to be taken seriously anymore, especially now that he is being included more. But, there could still be lingering anxieties that aren't being addressed that still cause Virgil to act out sometimes and get hostile even up to now. It could be out of defense, protection or fear of presenting as vulnerable. Around the time Janus showed up, Virgil’s hostility presented itself towards him while with Remus, weariness was presented. But, they both triggered the aggressive need in him to combat them for protection. His actions spoke for themselves: yelling, hissing, death glares, slamming tables, sparking arguments etc. All of his irritable outbursts speak. Could he have gotten this behavior from Orange? Could Orange have taught Virgil defense or even affected him so much that he needs to constantly be on guard? Who knows, but all I know is that Virgil's aggressive actions are not just because he's being an asshole, but he's just doing his job, finding a productive balance and struggling with past issues that may have caused the domino effect in the first place.

Now, many people have suspected that Logan is connected to Orange. On the surface this makes sense. From the fact that their colors are opposites and Logan's personal anger issues making him a prime target. However, The proposal here is that Orange is actually possessing him or attaching to him. Seeing as Logan's eyes went orange, it showed the control Orange took, hence the term “Blinded By Rage”. So, there's your connection. But, anxiety and anger can both blind logic. Anxiety can be irrational at times and even warp the reality of a situation it perceives as threatening, casting any logical explanation aside. Anger can overshadow logic and make someone react irrationally and have no logical reasoning, which can lead to rash decisions being made..which then leads to regret and shame. And, if Virgil finds out that Orange has been latching onto Logan, he's going to flip his lid. There could be the faint possibility that Orange had already had his "fun" with Virgil and toyed with him enough. But, since Virgil broke free, Orange now needs a new vessel, a new victim if you will. Orange may see the same anger issues in Logan that he saw in Virgil or had struck into him. That could be why he's choosing Logan now instead because he's being repressed and ignored just like how Virgil was. Another piece of this connection for Virgil is that when Logan was listing off the deadly sins and he spoke on Wrath, it cut to Virgil looking rather upset and annoyed. As with the Patton connection, Anger is an emotion and Patton is all emotions. And, anger can cause moral dilemmas, with some saying that anger is immoral and makes you commit harmful actions while other times it's justified and a valid reaction. But, other than that, there's not much else. Although, if Orange and Virgil ARE ‘brothers’ hypothetically, it could make Orange also Patton’s ‘son’, confirming both the old theory and somewhat confirming the new one but just adjusted or flipped a bit. And Remus? Let's just say this: Intrusive Thoughts and Anxiety both trigger each other, but Anger and Anxiety clashing sparks Intrusive Thoughts. This is common in disorders like OCD. IT, Anger and Anxiety are all in the amygdala. Remus is just trying to coax Anger out like how he was going after Virgil in DWIT, using Logan as the vessel/sacrifice. Overall, Virgil will definitely get scared once Orange is out.

If you still need more proof, let's look at color theory. Purple💜, Orange🧡 and Green💚 are all secondary colors. They make a triad. Yellow💛 makes Orange and Green, but Purple💜 opposes. Anxiety however, is affected by the color Orange. Because of the color’s bold, brash and bright nature, it can be overwhelming and overstimulating if used excessively. It can also invoke feelings of aggression and impulsivity. It's not recommended to be worn when someone wants to be taken seriously as it is seen as a juvenile color. And, since it's so bright, it draws in your attention, making a color many with anxiety would like to avoid. It's also recommended for those who want to relax their anxiety to avoid bright rooms, specifically with Orange as the predominant color. Many things that attract our attention that are orange are things like traffic cones, construction signs, prison uniforms and fire. All of these are taken by us as hazards or threats. Even in hospitals, Code Orange is called for MCIs or ‘Mass Casualty Incidents’ where an influx of patients come from a local tragedy. So, it makes sense why orange is a color many with anxiety would not want to be around. With Virgil, he has shown that he doesn't like the representation of Anxiety in Inside Out 2. Now yes, by the definition I just spoke on, it makes sense for Riley's anxiety to be orange. But, to Virgil who knows someone who has that color and embodies it well, it could've triggered him. Why did I bring up the code thing? Well, in POF, Roman signaled a ‘Code Yellow' when Janus was present which usually means ‘missing person’ which in this case Logan was missing because Janus took his place. I also recall a moment in a past short Thomas did with a She-Ra audio where it listed off weaknesses. Virgil was pinned with fire. Sure, this could be non-canon but I vaguely remember Thomas saying he needed permission from Joan to do that short so it is plausible. But, fire is obviously anxiety inducing anyway. However, Roman did say at one point in the QnA vid that he would have fire as an element because of his fiery passion. Anger can make one very passionate about achieving goals and proving others wrong. So, Orange could even latch onto Roman as well. I mean, Yellow and Red make Orange and with how Roman and Janus have been lately...yeah. And just to tag on here, Virgil is a stormcloud right? Storms come with lightning. Lightning can spark fires. Major storms can even trigger volcanoes. Anger is often described as a bubbling volcano. You get what I'm saying. With Remus saying a “big storm” was coming, he's not wrong because he knows.

You see, none of the connections with Orange have been as strong as the ones with Virgil. Virgil seems to have this deep hatred or fear of Orange, as seen by his actions from the beginning to now, how he reacts to the color and his subtle giveaways. Could Virgil and Orange be ‘brothers’? Maybe. Could they be an ex couple? Also maybe. Orange could be taken as a hostile ex to Virgil or even as the older annoying brother. All of this to say that…Virgil is connected to Orange..not Logan, not Roman, and not Patton. But, what do you all think?

#sanders sides #thomas sanders #sanders sides fandom #virgil sanders #sanders sides theory #orange side #patton sanders #logan sanders #remus sanders #roman sanders #janus sanders #sanders sides analysis

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thatonelesbianfander · 1 month ago

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Finally getting around to posting this! Here is my art history project where I break down the imagery and symbolism in Sanders Sides and compare it to imagery and symbolism in other parts of art history! The link will take you to the copy of the Google Slides that I made for Tumblr because I do not want to post my legal name on Tumblr

Tag list of people who said they were interested: @logosbot-tm @milk3ad @lunafandoms @brokenhardies @spapman

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yourfanderfriend · 1 year ago

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!! SPOILER WARNING!! ⚠️

What if there was something more to Logan’s statement?

In the newest episode, “What Makes a Perfect Gift?”, when Logan hints to Virgil that he is disappointed with his newspaper, he makes a point to say:

“… there was obviously something about my personality that made you think a newspaper would be a proper gift for me, and whatever that is, I will have to reflect on that. This whole activity was to serve a higher purpose anyway.”

Thomas then assures Logan: “You’re doing good, Logan.”

They never discuss what exactly “the purpose” was. I also believe the wording of Logan’s statement was odd. This could just be a nod to his past history of disconnection with the group, but I believe it could be more.

I propose:

Could he be talking about the Orange Side?

I believe that “the aspect of his personality” Logan needs to reflect on could be a reference to Orange.

We already know that Orange and Logan are connected in some way, hence, the glowing orange eyes. They never discuss “the purpose” or “the aspect his personality” after it’s brought up.

Something about how Thomas said, “You’re doing good Logan,” tells me that Thomas, in some capacity, can see how much of a hard time Logan had. Janus and Remus obviously know about Orange, but what about the others?

Could it be that Logan is trying to keep Orange at bay?

Logan was the Side who ultimately decided to initiate the Gift Exchange. This is odd.

They even call this out when Roman says: “Logan, you’ve never run one of these things.”

Patton agrees with that statement saying: “Hey, yeah! It’s usually me or Roman. Wha-?”

Logan replies: “Well, things are a little different this year.”

Logan is trying new things and intentionally going out of his way to make sure Orange is not shown to the rest of the group.

He is making an effort to reconnect and get away from the one-dimensional “smart guy” stereotype because he can see how that can feed into Orange.

I would like to hear other people’s takes on this line. There are many ways you could interpret it, but it seems so cryptic that I might as well apply it to a theory of mine. Enjoy my over exaggeration of a small line. 💪💪💪

#sanders sides #sanders asides #ts sides #thomas sanders #sanders sides spoilers #ts logan #logan sanders #orange side #sanders sides theory #these are just my thoughts #this line is going to make my head explode #analysis

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tentacle-therapissed · 1 year ago

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Thinking a lot about the significance of Patton representing both c!Thomas’s feelings and his morality. Because it’s been made very clear that c!Thomas’s way of dividing the facets of himself cannot be universally applied to everyone, and the thing is that one’s morality being based on their emotions is very much not the case for everyone. There’s a reason ethos and pathos are two separate appeals in the rhetorical triangle, yet in Sanders Sides the pathos guy also represent c!Thomas’s ethics.

Think about it; every Side has their own unique moral code based on what they represent. The fact that they all have different viewpoints on what they believe is the best thing to do is the reason they have arguments like SvS in the first place. But despite this, Patton is the only side who actually represents Thomas’s morality. Roman and Logan both personally believe it is best for Thomas to go to the callback but encourage him to go to the wedding anyway because that’s what Patton believes is the right thing to do, and therefore that’s also what c!Thomas believes is the right thing to do. One’s ethics could just as feasibly be based in logical reasoning (what is the best course of action based on facts, statistics, and probability?) or self-preservation (what is the best course of action to fulfill my needs and desires?) or even idealism. But Thomas’s are based on his feelings. See a cute dog? Adopt it, the poor thing needs a home. Friends need help with something? Oh, you love your friends, they’re so wonderful! They deserve everything you could possibly offer them. Homelessness is sad, volunteer at your local soup kitchen. Violence is disturbing, shut it down!! It doesn’t matter if what you’re doing isn’t logically sound, or if it’s creatively unfulfilling, or if it serves to your own personal detriment; You should do what feels right. And considering natural law is the basis of Catholic moral theology, it makes perfect sense for him to associate his morals with an intrinsic part of him like his emotions rather than a conscious thought process. Plenty of us do not subscribe to natural law theory, however, and if I were making my own Sides I very much would not have my morality Side and emotions Side be one and the same.

But it’s not just Patton, is it? Roman represents Thomas’s hopes, dreams, and passions because most of Thomas's passions, career, and hobbies are creatively focused. But every Side also has their own motivations. Their own passions. Their own reasoning skills. Their own fears. Their own anger. Yet not all of them represent Thomas’s passions. Thomas’s reasoning. Thomas’s fears. Thomas’s anger. What would happen if Thomas’s passions were more aligned with Logan’s role? If his ethics were more aligned with Janus’s role? If his punctuality was more aligned with Virgil’s role?

And what would it look like if c!Thomas’s anger was somehow most aligned with Logan’s role?

#didnt feel like typing c!Thomas every time but like. I’m exclusively talking abt the character here #sanders sides #sanders sides analysis #meta analysis #virgil sanders #logan sanders #orange side #roman sanders #janus sanders #remus sanders #patton sanders

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intrulogical · 2 years ago

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with discussions of logan and the book from the new sasi short, something i'd love to talk about more is how the sides, most especially logan, fit the theme of "doomed by the narrative" in a more Meta way than usual.

the reason i call it more meta than the usual is the fact that c!thomas CREATED these sides within the narrative itself. the sides are aware they are part of a bigger narrative/content c!thomas produces, often addressing the camera. and yet, they continue airing their personal issues with each other, and you realize there's such a blurred line between these characters' lives and the stories c!thomas constructs sensationalizing his sides.

i was talking to @orbmanson7 about this, and they described the entire situation as: "but the kid gave them sentience to make their playtime more fun, it's so cruel." and i though this was perfect. the sides didn't have to exist, but they were created to personify c!thomas, and later on developed their own personalities independent of c!thomas. and yet, their capabilities are still confined to the fact that they are sides. they're unable to do things but personify c!thomas, and any wish to do something more would be nullified.

maybe for sides like roman or patton, it would be better. they're struggling, but c!thomas still likes them very clearly. but then we get to people like logan and you realize the true dreadful potential of being confined to your side-hood. we already know logan has been gradually losing influence on c!thomas ever since he pursued arts. in a normal person, it would be nothing because we don't have our logics personified. yet, c!thomas did, gave sentience to something that doesn't need it, and for what? for logan to feel like he's failed his job for decades?

i always thought it was horrific for a side to constantly fail at your job because, i mean, what else can you substantially have? they can't have aspirations outside of c!thomas. something i wished people acknowledged more is that c!thomas has more influence over the sides than the sides have on him. he specifically shapes how they are, how they change. and with logan, it's especially terrible because... what's he supposed to do when he can't do the one thing he's supposed to do? what's he supposed to do when there's no way out?

logan sanders, forever doomed by the narrative. a plaything given sentience for fun, only to be ignored and neglected for the following decades.

#sanders sides #logan sanders #sanders sides meta #my analysis #thomas sanders

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fanderstuckin2018 · 10 months ago

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Okay I loved Deceit, he’s probably my favorite side, but…I never figured out why this song was on his playlist. Hmm, maybe I just need to analyze some more…

#I’ll finish Logan’s analysis sometime :#haha #sanders sides #thomas sanders #ts sides #deceit sanders #sanders sides playlist #dee's theories

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part-time-zombie · 11 months ago

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Hey analogical fans (myself included) I got something for you:

In My Negative Thinking, before logan compliments him near the end, virgil says this as he starts to sink out.

(my captions aren't the most reliable, but it sounds more like he said "duck out" in the video...)

Logan states that virgil actually did good, and it stops him from leaving right away, instead rising back up to hear him better.

Logan continues with what he was saying and virgil seems to appreciate it, even if he's still guarded, and does cheer him up a little bit now that logan said those kind words to him.

Then, in Accepting Anxiety, when c!thomas explains how virgil wasn't there at all, he responds with this:

His absence and total removal from the group is him "ducking out", but that's also what it sounds like he said he was gonna do at the end of My Negative Thinking, before logan stopped him.

Conclusion: virgil had already assumed that everyone didn't like him earlier, including logan, and was planning on leaving after the debate. When logan complimented him, virgil decided to stick around for a few more episodes, effectively delaying his choice to leave because he now knew logan liked him.

#sanders sides #thomas sanders #logan sanders #virgil sanders #ts logan #ts virgil #analogical #analysis #does this make sense

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loganslowdown4 · 1 month ago

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𝕃𝕠𝕘𝕒𝕟’𝕤 𝕊𝕚𝕕𝕖 𝕋𝕣𝕒𝕔𝕜𝕤 ℙ𝕝𝕒𝕪𝕝𝕚𝕤𝕥 continued—

PART 2: WHAT’S HIDDEN BELOW THE SURFACE

11 What I Do For U

12 Erase Me

13 Art Is Dead

14 Equation

15 Sunrise

16 One More Time With Feeling

17 In My Mind

18 Not Perfect

19 Human

20 Time Adventure

Final Thoughts

Lastly THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN for making it to the end of this analysis for Logan! Check me out next week for Virgil’s! 💜

As always, happy re-listening!

👈GO BACK TO PART 1 | GO TO VIRGIL’S PLAYLIST 👉

#Logan sanders #Logan’s playlist #Part 2 #ts logan #tss playlist breakdowns #thomas sanders #sanders sides #playlist analysis #Ts playlists #In the heights #tank and the bangas #adventure time

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fairly-uncommon-debate-tactic · 1 year ago

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Ok headcanon/theory time. I'm probably overthinking but hear me out.

After Virgil and Logan's debate in MNT, Virgil starts to leave saying "Save your insults, I'm just gonna deck out." before Logan stops him to complement him on the debate.

A couple of episodes later in AA 2, it's pronounced slightly differently, but Virgil describes his suicide/running away/quitting (however you interpret it) as "I decided to duck out."

I think Virgil was making a last ditch call for help in MNT. He had clearly already been feeling depressed and isolated before this. This debate could have been his breaking point, and he was making one final plea to Logan to please please notice. And Logan does, though he doesn't realize what Virgil means by "deck out." Though the encouragement only delays his attempt by a few episodes when he hits the breaking point again, and this time he knows no one will hear him if he even bothers to ask for help. If the smartest person in the room didn't get it, or maybe just didn't care, surely no one else would.

But of course he was wrong and they love him and we love him hehe

#sanders sides #sanders sides analysis #sanders sides theory #ts virgil #ts logan #ts sanders sides #sanderssides #schipperke's posts

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clydesavage-thefox147 · 11 months ago

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[Part 2 to Big Long Awaited Theories. This one is a bit..Roman slandering so be warned, be civil and hear me out here please, sorry if it's a bit jumbled heh] (Part 1 here)

Unpopular opinion/theory here but:

I think Roman sided against the callback because if he picked it, he would be supporting Janus who was seen as a villain at the time by everyone else, so he wanted to avoid any more affiliation. His need to be the hero and feed his broken ego was bigger than achieving a life-long dream.

Don't believe me? Then what does this line mean?

Furthering this belief, there's a notable pattern throughout season 2, particularly to start with Fitting in. When Roman was assigned the role of Slytherin in the group, he was rather taken back. He refused to believe it because he pushed the understanding that Slytherins were evil. This then followed with him saying "I'm not evil!" then Virgil(in a pretty Janus sounding tone) saying "Says who?". (Also coincidence how the snake affiliated house gets called evil here).

Then cut to the episode CLBG. I find it quite funny that Roman felt like Janus used him during this episode even though Roman himself was the one who stated FIRST that acting was like lying AND started the idea of disguising as Joan to help Thomas practice. Janus only nudged him to do it on a stage. Then later into the episode, Roman states about Janus "I hate this guy and his creepy snake face, however he is very kind". First off, making fun of Janus for his snake traits that he has little to no control over having. And two, blatantly admitting that he believed Janus' flattery. He left the window wide open for what happened later in SvS.

Speaking of, in SvS, it was clear that Roman wanted the callback desperately and so did Thomas. Roman is part of Thomas' personal dreams and goals. Janus knows this. Roman was willing to give Janus the benefit of the doubt and let him explain his side of the situation which Virgil obviously wasn't too happy with. Throughout the court case, Janus' flattery was his way of keeping Roman on his side, the best overall decision that was the callback while simultaneously pointing out the denials of all the other sides and Thomas. He eventually got so fed up of them beating around the bush that he made Thomas finally admit that he wanted to pick the callback instead. Like I said before, Janus knew this beforehand so he did low-key rigged the case in favor of the callback choice. This is a positive form of manipulation called a "Contrivance". Something meticulously planned piece by piece in favor of a desired outcome. Virgil I guess was right about it being rigged. But, when all was said and done and Janus was so close to winning the case, Roman pulled out last minute, making Janus reasonably angry. Roman stated "It is my sworn duty to help Thomas achieve his hopes and dreams, but Thomas wouldn't dream of attaining his hopes through deceitful means" following with Janus pleading that that wasn't true. But, Roman's line proves that he picked the wedding to avoid committing what was believed to be a selfish act. You can see how desperate Janus was for the others to see his perspective, even benching Logan in the process to have his lesson heard instead(then did it again in POF). Janus wanted the others to see that they were blowing this simple problem out of proportion but no one cared. He knew the answer was obvious but everyone refused to agree.

Then cut to DWIT, the following episode where Remus was debuted for the first time. Many believed that Remus was sent out, out of pettiness on Janus' part which could be possible. If Roman wanted to be a good person, Janus was going to show him(and Thomas) that it wasn't so easy. Remus made Roman realize and admit that he doesn't want to end up like him. Furthering why I think he made the decision he did.

Then cut to Healthy Distractions, where I find it funny is that here's Roman trying to avoid villainy...but commits petty theft and voter fraud. Roman literally said "I was gonna rig the vote anyway". So much for trying to avoid what he literally talked about an episode prior. Sure, he could've stolen the hat out of a joke but it still is petty(both be petty bitches).

Then..cut to POF: SvS Redux. This is where a lot of this come into play. One noticable thing is within the song. Not only was the line I previously stated there but the lines leading up to it paint a different picture.

Ro: "And no one wanted you to go more than the that slimy snake"

Th: "Who pushed to do the egocentric thing auditioning" (Ro: "Yep that's Deceit!")

Now, correct me if I'm wrong..but don't you have to audition before you get a callback? And isn't Roman the physical representation of Thomas' Ego? And didn't Janus point out Egoism in SvS? AND didn't Thomas called Roman " a bit of an egoist" in the 2017 behind the scene vid? Yes. All yes. So, this can only mean that Janus, in the few months that he and Roman were on decent terms with one another, must've influenced him to get Thomas to audition(or influence Thomas to get Roman involved) since Janus is a part of the 'selfish desires'. In this case, Janus is within his right to be mad at Roman. He spent time setting up the perfect end-goal for Thomas here as a show of good faith and intentions, but Roman shoved it aside because the other sides believed Janus' was still no good.

Then after the song, when Patton was struggling with his rhetoric of morality, some moments seemed to correspond with the court case. Two of these moments Roman himself brought up in conversation. Roman stated the view of how it shouldn't matter why the prince saved the kingdom as long as the citizens are safe(in this case the prince did it for a reward). However, Patton didn't like that conclusion, claiming that that doesn't make the prince a good person. Which then prompted Roman to respond with somber expression "Yeah probably not". Roman wants to avoid any villainous affiliations. But, he also wants the praise of being a hero for his own external validation which he's desperate for(no wonder Janus' flattery almost worked). His reward was that praise and he got that for a short time.

But, according to Patton, this is a selfish act. Roman has stated that he is "a proponent of following one's heart" It would make sense to appease the heart and morality to remain on his good side. However, Roman said shortly after "if it's not helping to fulfilling one's longing, then what is the point?" Patton wasn't fulfilling Thomas' goal of finally being a star. Roman didn't really like that. But, to avoid upsetting Patton, he followed along with him. Hell, Patton was the one who gave Thomas the inspiration to even start video creation. Another incentive for Roman to follow along with him. Double Hell, Roman initially didn't like Patton's idea of using puppets back in LNTAO but then immediately flipped script which Virgil pointed out. Patton definitely contributed to Roman's final decision on the wedding. Roman thought that he was the problem for making Thomas want a 'selfish desire' over friendship, even though this desire wasn't really a big issue at all(and he sent Thomas to wedding as punishment for wanting said desire). Which prompted Patton to beg for Roman to stay on his support team. No wonder when Patton started to view Janus in a different light, Roman got immediately defensive, trying to push that Janus was evil and he wasn't. He didn't want to feel like his decision was for nothing but it ultimately was. Janus states "it served no one" after giving Roman some credit for his sacrifice. But, if that sacrifice was for the praise and glory of the others for his heroism...that's just as selfish as going to the callback. No wonder Roman was upset when Patton thought it was bad. So, why is Roman mad at Janus when he should direct some of his anger at Patton for contributing to his final decision and the moral confusion. Is he afraid of hurting his feelings? Also tagging on, the same episode he said he followed the heart, Roman said that Patton should only stick to knowing the difference between right and wrong and leaving the rest to them...well, look where that took them. Lead Patton to guilt Roman into making him feel bad for pushing Thomas to be dishonest and dishonorable which just made him more confused.

The second thing being that Roman stated the Trolly Problem. The situation of deciding to save the larger group of people or the one person. Roman did this exact same thing the court room. He had to pick between siding with the others (the larger group) on the wedding..or side with the one person(Janus on the callback). He picked the former and let Janus get hit metaphorically.

It all collimated in the final scene between him and Janus. Janus being vulnerable with revealing his name as an attempt to gain trust..all to get laughed at and made fun of. Janus retaliated with the now infamous line "Thank God you don't have a moustache, otherwise between you and Remus, I wouldn't know who the evil twin is". Roman couldn't take it. He can dish out all these insults but the second it's him who's insulted he shuts down or gets pissy right back. However, maybe Janus was right with his statement. I mean, there's been only two confirmed times Roman was ever influenced by Remus. One was the "Naked Aunt Patty" line from the 12 Days of Christmas vid and the bubbagump shrimp line in the carol itself. But, there's been moments where it seems that Roman had no influence from him and it was all his wording. Like how he responded to Janus' pinata metaphor with "I believe he's saying that you beat someone up and rob their unconscious body". Or how in one scene in CLBG, as Joan, he stated "-like your weird habit of gluing your butt cheeks together". Or how in Moving On pt 2, he was all about that butt dial lie and wouldn't stop. And finally, remembering way back to the QnA, when they were asked if they all had YouTube channels, Roman said quote "Epic fail compilations of all the horrible deaths my enemies incur after I impale them". Roman...wanted to film himself..killing people..to post on YouTube. For what? To laugh? To gloat? Does this not sound creepy to any of you? And just adding his petty theft and vote rigging and all his bullying insults up to now...yeah Janus' retort holds a lot of weight.

Another note is that Roman has been getting pretty close with Virgil lately. What's noticable here is that Roman's might be playing favorites. Notice how when both Virgil and Janus revealed their names, they were both equally vulnerable. Virgil revealed his name because he had already gained trust with the others but Janus did it to gain trust with them. Roman gave Virgil congrats for his admittance and bravery and only laughed at the Virgin joke Patton said. But, Roman laughed and insulted Janus? Even though both Janus and Virgil are of dark side origin? What makes Virgil more special? Especially when Roman hated Virgil to begin with and now they're best buddies...then he supported Janus at first and now flat out hates him. He pulled an Uno reverse card on them. Roman mainly chilling with Virgil now because they both hate Janus is definitely 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Hell, in FWSA, Roman and Virgil were calling Thomas a liar constantly after he accepted Janus. Meanwhile if Roman continued to do so, he would be in the same boat. Mind you, only Patton has accepted Janus completely. Thomas and Logan are 50/50, and Roman and Virgil are against it entirely.

Janus is aware of the others' denials, lies and desires. He's aware that Roman is in denial. Roman wants to believe he made the right decision but he knows he didn't. He keeps moping and whining over how he wants to be happy and achieve his dreams but he lost that opportunity because he made a stupid sacrifice. If he was confident in his choice, he wouldn't be acting this way. Janus knew Roman would be hurt if they missed the callback. And him behaving this way long after just proves it. Janus said right to his face in the court room "You want that callback so back and it will CRUSH you if we miss it". This was true. And if Roman were to say that he did make a good decision he'd basically be lying and stooping to Janus' level. So both ways he's screwed and played. Roman is also very fraudulent when it comes to his facade. He likes to act like he's this brave prince who isn't insecure and can handle his problems alone when that is clearly a lie. Janus wants Roman to be honest with both himself and the others, the others know by now that Roman is very insecure so what else is there left to hide? Janus would know about facades..and he sees right through Roman's and so does everyone else. Tagging in here, Janus' 'wroammin' spelling meant 'remorse' signifying that Roman was giving Janus sympathy while also showing Roman's imposter syndrome(alongside other times he corrected people on his name). This wasn't Janus insulting his name first, this was him proving a point.

To add on, Roman turned to Janus after he said "I thought I was your hero" and Thomas replying "You are". Roman trusted Janus' confirmation. Janus' nod was confirming that Thomas is telling the truth but Roman only believing Janus was lying, he took it as Janus confirming Thomas was lying. Or, Janus was sadly confirming that Thomas was in fact lying. But I think the former is most likely. Roman now believes he lost his "hero" title..which honestly might be a good thing, maybe he'll try to earn it back in a very honorable way without letting the power go to his head. His bullying and grandiose behavior was his way of making himself feel important when he deeply felt like he wasn't good enough. Roman is so desperate for external validation because he can't love himself without it and Janus is trying to tell him that. Quit acting like you love yourself and actually..do so.

In conclusion, I believe Janus was more in the right here but if we must compromise, they both must reach an understanding and an apology. My theory stands that Roman sided against Janus to avoid any further association for the reward of heroic praise.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. Feel free to correct me or change my mind if you so please but remain civil.

Part 3 soon.. maybe.

#sanders sides #sanders sides fandom #thomas sanders #roman sanders #janus sanders #sanders sides theory #roceit #virgil sanders #patton sanders #remus sanders #logan sanders #sanders sides analysis

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prodigal-explorer · 1 year ago

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cant send this on anon. sad! anyways i think the point of pattons arc is to accept that the others have importance. learning to not bottle up his feelings was the first step to fixing a larger issue about himself, that being that he tries to put all responsibility of himself. and that manifests in a lot of ways, including not respecting the others and their roles.

but then you get to the end of pof, and after janus resigns to being wrong about everything, patton says that they both know that's not true. that to me signifies that something shifted in him after pof. thats him directly recognizing that janus was right. that selfishness was the right choice, that janus is important. and this is a direct consequence of janus pointing out his flaws to him (when he turns back into a human he admits that he doesn't know what hes doing and he cant pretend that he does anymore. which is a direct response to when he resolves to make sure thomas isnt a bad person in svs)

does that mean he's good at it? no. not at all. but i do think hes trying. given that hes already had a major breakdown in a video i cant see the same happening for the finale but he should definitely take time to acknowledge the others roles. maybe he can talk logan/orange down and tell him that the rage he feels is justified and important to thomas? something like that. i would love it if remus got a chance to be involved but i have the bad feeling hes gonna be the designated one dimensional comedic relief. which i kinda get why but also come the fuck on. anyways thats my two cents idk

i completely agree with you homie!!!

i also appreciate the nuance in this take cuz so many people fly to my askbox and try to tell me that patton is some innocent baby and that he should never be criticized ever because "he's trying!" and that's not what you did you actually spoke like with intelligence which was so fucking awesome to read. /g

i absolutely agree with everything you said. this is patton's arc. his arc isn't "i'm too nice and i need to stop being too nice" HELL NO that's not his arc whatsoever and there is no indication of that being his arc even though people constantly pretend that's his arc. NO. his arc is that he needs to learn that he is not the end-all-be-all of thomas' mind, and that he is not always the most important voice in the conversation. though he doesn't have overstated hubris, how highly he thinks of himself and how lowly he thinks of the others is blatantly obvious through his actions, and he's slowly getting better at, like, NOT doing that and it's really good change to see! he still has a...long...long...LONG way to go, but at least he's going somewhere. i just wish people would acknowledge this super interesting journey instead of watering patton down and being super fucking annoying whenever i try to critique him the tiniest bit.

#thomas sanders #sanders sides #tss #roman sanders #sanders sides fandom #virgil sanders #patton sanders #logan sanders #remus sanders #janus sanders #sanders sides analysis #sanders sides fandom critical #tss fandom crit

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