#ml s5 finale discourse

[pisoprano]

With regards to the ML season 5 finale:

I’ve seen some people bemoan Marinette for letting her guard down in front of Gabriel since that enabled him to make his Wish—a classic case of the hero being stupid because the plot needed it happen. But actually? I think it was the very fact that she did let her guard down that helped save the world.

Ladybug has always been shown as being a compassionate person, and this became more pronounced when she started handing out protective charms and giving the akumatized victims the encouragement they needed to help fight back against succumbing to their negative emotions. (side note: I will admit I previously thought it was weird when the show kept having her hand these out after Shadowmoth figured out how to break them, but after the group effort of everyone using their charms to help Prof. Damocles, I realized that they were showing that continued effort to be kind was the right thing to do, even when those efforts failed, because in aggregate it will help things get better).

Marinette is someone who has learned to see and recognize others when they’re at their lowest and support them, and when she realizes that her archenemy is just as human as all the villains she’s faced before, she shows him compassion too. And Gabriel responds to it! Moments before, he was raving about having his perfect universe with his perfect family, with Adrien and Kagami being the iconic perfect couple as its crowning jewel. It’s Marinette who brings him back down to reality and gives him the wake-up call he’s sorely needed—and she can only do that by, not confronting him and judging him, but honestly empathizing with him. She has all the power to crush him and he knows it, so when she instead responds with understanding and reminds him of what Emilie really wanted, the simple truth of it breaks his resolve to get everything he wants—and with that clarity he is finally able to stop being in denial about Emilie’s death and prioritize the happiness Adrien made for himself over what Gabriel thought was best for him.

Naturally, the second that even a hint of a solution pops up, Gabe falls back into his old patterns of grasping at slim chances, but when he does? He doesn’t have the same goals anymore. When he makes the Wish, whatever his heart and soul asked for didn’t include his perfect vision that forced everyone into their boxes of what he thought was right. It saved Nathalie (whose illness was directly caused by Gabriel’s wrongdoings as Hawkmoth, so it’s understandable he’d still want to set that right), and it may or may not have saved Emilie (I personally think that he didn’t, but we’ll see), but Gabriel wasn’t part of that world and Adrien was free to live his life on his own terms. That would not have happened if Gabriel had gotten his hands on the ring and earrings before Marinette helped him change, just enough, to let his obsession go.

Marinette may have made some mistakes in the finale, but being the person who helps others isn’t one of them. There’s a reason Ladybug is considered the greatest hero in the Miraculous universe: it’s not just because she saves the day, but because she inspires people—even those who have hurt her—to choose to become better. The fact that she did so with Gabriel “Monarch” Agreste is pretty amazing in my book.

[generalluxun]

Hey! I've been loving your Chloé/Alya AU story as well as enjoying your posts a lot in general, I'll be reading Dog Daze too when I can because it seems like it's your "main story" and I'm curious about the dynamics of Adrien/Sabrina as a ship (which I hadn't thought of before seeing your blog!) - I also just enjoy the way you write the characters a lot, especially because you're both a Chloé defender and a gay Chloé enthusiast like me lol. And your dunking on Astruc is delicious too, of course! Do you have any upcoming fics/vague ideas you've been considering that you feel comfortable sharing?

Thanks for the question and for your followup clarification, I'll answer both parts here.

First off: Thank you for reading! The Chloé/Alya fic was an experiment, and a bit of a gift to @flightfoot who is a big Alya fan, and a treasure to the community. I've come to love the dynamic as I've explored it.

Dog Daze is the largest AU, yes. Chock full of one shots after the main fic. It *Does* start with Puppy Love, which was supposed to be a one shot, then oops, I had an AU. Fin fact:Dog Daze was supposed to be endgame Adrienette, but the goobers just didn't want to let each other go. Oops. 🤣

Adribrina is my comfort ship. They are just so... 🥺 It's sweet, it's gentle, it's supportive, and they don't even realize it.

I wouldn't call myself a Chloé defender. I just don't like anything that belittles/justifies/ignores choild abuse. Chloé happens to be an abused child blamed for her own abuse by the narrative. I fond that particular aspect of ML reprehensible and so am vocal about it. If they had just left her as a 1D bully the entire time, it wouldn't be an issue. Once you demonstrate child abuse *on screen* then certain expectations change.

I do think Chloé as a character is in an amazingly dynamic position, teetering and able to go in many directions. This is why she features so much in my writings.

As you said in your followup, I do put Chloé in both het and lesbian ships(even some bi) for me, her attraction has a lot more to do with the person *giving her attention* and the plumbing is actually largely secondary. Not knocking anyone else's headcanon, that's just my take on her.

I don't set out to 'dunl' on Astruc, bit he has positioned himself as the voice/aithority/control so questionable narrative lands in his lap. He also seems to be ill suited to engaging on online discourse (no slight there, it can be hard!) But also seems to want to enjoy the access to praise it offers. This makes for a volatile mess. In all honesty I would love a chance to corner him and just ask 'why' for a lot of choices. I do fear though many of hos answers would boil down to 'Who do you listen to, me, or your lying eyes?'

I was thinking of actually doing a LoZ TotK fic in the near future.

If ML there are cirrently 3 options spinning.

1)Continue Dog Daze Continuity with a story set in the final year before university and bringing Kagami back into the mix.

2)Continue Gothic AU continuity with a story focusing on Adrien's acquiring of the Pig, and Sabrina's akumatization with the Goat while continuing to explore the other dynamics (like Ladybug/Peluche and Chloé reason for being... Lile she is)

3)Chloé comes back worse. Post S5 fic where Chloé is actually putting in effort to be a chaos demon, not just other people's pawn.

Thanks again for the ask!

[fanficmaniatic]

The "Anti-Chat" Theory.

(Which is also why Chat Blanc 2.0 wont work and why Ladybug needs to be akumatized).

This is a turducken on my thoughts for S4 and the future of the show so just roll with it.

So, Season 4 has been wild so far, and if clues given by the writers and people involved in show are any indication, this is only the beginning, we are in for a bumpy ride and things are just going to keep getting worse.

In all the discourse revolving season 4 something that we are all mentioning is how “Chat Blanc” is still a thing and there is no guarantee it won’t happen again. If anything it now seems more likely Chat Noir will get akumatized considering the imminent Ladynoir fallout, and how Adrien is still living with his Father, as his isolation keeps getting worse. And though I am always In for some good Character angst, and I feel like it is necessary for Adrien to know about Chat Blanc, and/or for Chat Blanc to reappear, I don’t think Chat Blanc 2.0 is something Adrien nor the show needs right know.

This theory has many parts, I promise it all ties neatly at the end.

First things first, I may be a little biased, Chat Blanc is an episode I really enjoy. I love Time Travel shenanigans, and I was dying to see Adrien finally find out about his father. The heavy consequences of the episode were obviously erased, but the impact of it all still remains trough Marinette, whom we see in the episode ‘Sentibbubler’ is having nightmares about the whole thing. But still, I love the episode, and I really don’t want an “Stormy Weather 2”… which is an episode I heavily dislike, compared to THE BEST formulaic episode of the Whole show, a.k.a “Stormy Weather” a.k.a My favorite episode. So yeah, this whole first point is just me REALLY not wanting an episode called “Chat Blanc 2.0” But there is more to it, and is the fact that I don’t see how it could work out.

“Chat Blanc 2.0” is unnecessary, and the reason why is that bringing him back wouldn’t actually do anything besides perhaps bringing Ladynoir further apart. Ladybug still CAN’T know Chat noir’s identity, (Let’s be honest and admit that’s prolly s4 finale OR happening during s5) so the show would go out of its way to make his dialogue as plain as possible without mentioning his father being hawkmoth. And yes, I do realize that Chat has been bottling his emotions and it all is likely to come out during THE ladynoir fall out… But people are ignoring the elephant in the room which is that Chat Noir DOES NOT fight Ladybug.

I promise this is relevant.

Chat Noir, unless mind controlled, would never attack Ladybug. The most clear example of this is in “Gamer 2.0” when he straight up says “I could never bring myself to fight you” as he sacrifices himself for her, that added to their classic “Is us against the world, My Lady” every season finale, and Marinette’s “In case something happens to me” In ‘Optygami’, it all could pretty well be a foreshadowing of a Ladynoir fight, where Ladybug is akumatized, and Chat has to willingly fight her. Yes, one could argue that he did fight her during ‘Chat Blanc’, but it could also be read as more of him trying to make her listen.

Where am I going with this? Chat Blanc 2.0 would be unable to bring the nuance the story needs right now. Chat Blanc still wouldn’t fight his father, because I doubt they won’t leave that for season 5. Chat Blanc still doesn’t have a motive to actually fight Ladybug. But the most important part is… What would happen at the end? What would be the change? What conversation are we having? What would be different than what we got in the original Chat Blanc?

To be fair, maybe I am wrong, maybe it can work out, this is just a theory. Maybe all the things I crossed out as impossible will actually happen, but I have been watching the show for 6 years, and If I have learned something about it, is that it is a slow burn, in ALL the aspects.

So yes, I believe Ladybug/Marinette needs to be akumatized, but I also think that Adrien has to learn about Chat Blanc, and that Chat Blanc needs to reappear, having a bigger Role than just a nightmare. So… how does that tie with everything I just said? Easy, the “Anti- Chat” Theory’

So you probably remember “Anti-Bug”, one of the best episodes from season 1, where Chole tries to help Ladybug, she doesn’t listen, and Chloe ends up being akumatized into “Ladybug but evil” … In theory, that is the deal, and is no wonder I am picking Felix Graham De Vanily to fill this role.

From an animation perspective, Felix is the obvious choice, he is identical to Adrien, and if following Anti-bug’s logic in costume desing, that would mean they can reuse Chat Blanc model with no alteration needed.

Now, How would this work? By giving Ladybug a jump scare. She thinks she has to live one of her worst nightmares again, to then find out “Oh… This is not Chat Noir” while still creating enough tension, by looking scared and distraught, that she HAS to tell him that she is scared of him being akumatized WITHOUT actually needing to mention the alternative timeline. This gives Chat noir the chance to lash out, once he realizes this is part of why ladybug is keeping him away, which can lead to Ladybug’s future akumatization.

Why this way? And please hear me out. Chat Noir NEEDS to let his emotions out, and I don’t think lashing out at ladybug is the best way but I see it as necessary. Adrien needs to take on more responsibility while being Chat, but he also needs to learn how to healthy express his emotions, because he is not allowed to do that in his current situation. Ladybug being akumatized because she feels guilty about Chat Noir allows Adrien to do BOTH. Because to save Ladybug he would have to realize “My emotions are valid, and is okey to let them out, but the way I did it was not the right one”, and both Ladybug and Chat Noir would have to apologize because this whole thing is not miscommunication… is a misunderstanding of their partners character. Ladybug needs to relay more on Chat and Chat needs to take on more responsibility… it won’t happen if Ladybug is the one that needs to save Chat Noir.

Adrien needs to realize that he needs to save himself, and that there’s people outside of his father that care for him. Ladybug is this figure that he looks up to and Admires, and is from a side of his life that his father has no control over, (At least from his perspective). So if she forgives him, if they are able to fix their relationship he will realize that things can get better.

Now, going back to Anti-Chat… his deal is way bigger than just bringing The Ladynoir fight… Is about setting up seasons 6 and 7.

What do we know so far? The Love Square and Gabriel’s Hawkmoth is going to come to an end by season 5. Which has left many fans wondering “Then what is happening on seasons 6 and 7?” And the best answer we have so far is in the episode “Timetagger” where Bunnix reveals that there is a whole team of miraculous holders fighting the Hawkmoth of the future, which is by the same episode confirmed to not be Gabriel Agreste. Besides this, I think it is safe to assume that the specials are quietly setting up themes that could come back In seasons 6 and 7.

Now, when speaking about characters that could be future villains the fandom seems to have its collective mind set on two individuals: Lila Rossi, and Felix Graham De Vanily.

Besides ‘Rocketear’, (E17), ‘Wishmaker’ (E18), and the special ’Shadow Moth’s last attack’ (Eps 25&26) we don’t know the names of the episodes of the second half of the season, which is really uncommon for miraculous ladybug, and the reason they gave us as to why is “You would know who is akumatized based on the names”… Which AGAIN, is really uncommon for ML. If you have been in this fandom for a long time you’ll realize that most people working in the show don’t really seem to care about spoilers. Now, this is kinda a conspiracy theory, but If you saw that there was an episode called “Anti-Chat” would you have assume it was any one other than Felix?…. No, right? That’s what I though. Miraculous has proven that it is good at subverting expectations, so when they are pointing at something (like a Chat Blanc 2.0 episode) it may not be as we want or suspected it to be. So I think an Anti-Chat episode makes a lot of sense.

Now, Why am I saying that this can set up future season? Buckle up, pals, here we go. What do we know about Felix?

He is evil, or at the very least seems to be ill-intentioned, if his attitude and look at the end of his episode is anything to go by.

He is after jewelry. Which, yeah, was only shown in that one episode he appeared, but this could pretty much be a foreshadowing of him later on going after the miraculous.

We know that he is bound to appear 3 more times

For this theory to work, I need it to happen in episode 22… Yes, the feared 100th episode of the show. It is not as important why Felix is akumatized, but what is happening WHILE he is akumatized.

Besides what has already been discussed, with Ladybug being scared, Ladynoir should not be able to work together. They are tumbling on each other because Chat Noir feels like she doesn’t trust him, but Ladybug NEEDS his reassurance right now, which he wont give.

This, is directly parallel with what is happening between Anti-Chat and Shadow Moth. Because Felix, even though he wants the miraculous, he won’t let himself be bossed around. He is demanding things from SM, and like in Robustus, Anti-Chat tries to, not just take Ladybug’s and Chat noir’s Miraculous, he wants to destroy Hawkmoth too. Which will lead to Shadow Moth being the reason he gets de-akumatized, instead Ladybug and Chat Noir saving him... bringing more fuel to the Ladynoir fire.

Now, Why should Felix have an attitude with Shadow Moth? Well, my friends… Do you remember, years ago, when the producers of the show said “The peacock miraculous holder will make Hawkmoth look like a baby”…. That’s not Mayura. Nathalie is a great miraculous holder, and she is really clever. But instead of making Gabriel look like a baby, she makes him look smart because he has someone like her on his team. What I am saying with this is that Felix, will suspect/ figure out Gabriel is Hawkmoth at the en of Anti-Chat, and that he will get the peacock miraculous during “The Last attack of Shadow Moth.” Thus, setting up a villain for future seasons.

This makes Felix 3 appearances be: In episode 22 (Anti-Chat), In episode 26 (SM last attack, part 2), and during S5’s finale. Felix situation will be much like Lila’s during s1 and s2 where she was introduced at the end of the first but not used until the end of the second.

Conclusion:

Felix Graham de Vanily has the potential to be a future villain and bring the Ladynoir conflict to finally surface.

And to clarify, The Ladynoir conflict, just like this Felix theory, is not something that will, nor can get resolved in one episode. If anything the fight will be around the end of season 4, and it will get resolved during season 5.

But again, this is just a theory, and I will probably be death wrong, but who knows?

[pisoprano]

This is an ML salt post, particularly about Lila Rossi. If you are actually excited about Lila being the main villain in future season(s), this post isn't for you, I just need to rant. A lot.

I hate Lila Rossi. I hate her with a burning passion. Literally every episode where she shows up, my hatred for this character will manifest in me saying "I hate her" the moment she opens her mouth, followed by seething throughout every moment she spends onscreen.

In prior seasons, this wasn't much of an issue--she'd show up for a couple episodes and then she'd disappear 90% of the time, so I could usually just focus on literally anything else in the show. With season 5, however, she started showing up much more. I knew it was coming, of course--the foreshadowing that she would be the successor to Hawkmoth has been visible since season 3, and it was announced that he'd be gone after this season. But if the show had ended at season 5 as originally intended, butterfly!Lila could have been a theoretical problem for adult!Ladybug and adult!Chat Noir in 10 years. But since the powers that be have decided to have the show continue past Gabriel Agreste, Lila is a problem now and will be a problem at least until Chris Lahiffe is a teenage boy, if "Timetagger" is any indication. And we, the audience, will be forced to suffer through all of it.

Why, though, do I hate the idea of Lila being the main villain? I was fine with having Gabriel in the villain seat for five seasons despite him being a terrible father and manipulative git, after all. With Gabriel, there was a particular humanity to him that made him interesting--this entire show is about love and Gabe's love was so overwhelming and myopic and self-serving that he resorted to villainy while convincing himself that he was secretly the hero all along, sacrificing everything (even his morality) for the woman he loved. He used his love as an excuse to justify the harm he caused Paris and his very own son. As he continually reached for forbidden means to get what he wanted, his dreams ballooned in scope--he'd defied the odds when he'd married above his station, he'd defied the odds when he'd become a world-renowned designer, he'd defied the odds when he found the miraculous and created the perfect son--and so it became all too natural for him to fight the impossible fight as Hawkmoth because he deserved to win this too. And the whole time, unbeknownst to either of them, he's fighting against the son who he's been neglecting and controlling in his fight to save someone who never wanted to be saved? That stuff is fascinating.

Lila, though? She's got none of that complexity. She's a consummate liar who hates the protagonists and literally nothing else. In other shows, she'd be the transfer student who shows up for an episode, gets exposed as a fraud by the end of that episode, and then literally never be seen again. This show, however, has Lila overstay the welcome that her character archetype is built for and instead be a recurring problem. And, because a liar can only get away with lying if the surrounding characters don't know she's lying, Lila is made untouchable by the plot. Other villainous characters have some plot immunity to their evilness--Chloe, obviously, has the automatic win condition of demanding her father to get her out of trouble whenever she wants. But Lila's plot immunity comes from an inexplicable ability to manipulate everyone around her (besides our main protagonists, who are forced to only cry wolf). She makes all the supporting cast love her without help, she does so even to characters we'd expect to know better. When she first showed up, her lies weren't even good and still she gets away with her reputation in tact basically every time. The one time where she does get exposed to everyone, she gets to have an easy redo by making up a completely new identity to try again. She's a Villain Sue. And her very presence weakens the story she's in.

Lila only exists because the writers decided to make an absolute hate sink. They absolutely succeeded in doing so. And frankly, that's a problem. Most of the time, if you're going to have a character in a show for any length of time, they should be likeable on some level. They could be sympathetic or competent or proactive or even just have a personality that's fun to watch, but the audience shouldn't feel like the character is a waste of viewing time. Lila isn't someone the audience can identify with, her competence is largely in name only (I will allow that her manipulative skills during season 5 are stronger, but her ludicrously bad prior lying and the unexplained nature of her sudden hypercompetence now aren't nearly enough to make me forgive her here). Lila's sometimes doing things behind the scenes, sure, but she has the laughably petty objectives of "be famous" and "ruin classmate's life" and I cannot take her actions towards achieving these goals seriously as a bit villain, let alone a primary antagonist. And--worst of all--her voice is extremely annoying. I will suffer through a myriad of things, but I can only listen to nails on a chalkboard so long before need to leave the room.

And this might be a bit of a hot take, but honestly? I don't think Lila was even necessary in the first place. In episodes like "Volpina" or "Oni-Chan," she could have been replaced with Chloe (our original mean girl who's clingy with Adrien--she might not be my favorite character either, but at least she's funny). I'm positive that the plot of "Catalyst" and "Miraculer" could have been reworked to happen without Lila's involvement without much effort. The entire subplot of Lila being Adrien's modelling partner was more about Gabriel controlling his son--it could have been easily about forcing Adrien to be alone instead of forcing him to be with someone he didn't like. The fact that Lila shows up so little in the first four seasons just goes to prove how unnecessary she is. She only becomes important in season 5 because the writers now know that they need to prepare for a new supervillain to fill Gabriel's shoes after he leaves--and she's the only one who comes anywhere close to fitting. So, suddenly, she's being far more active than she ever was (almost half of her total appearances are in season 5 alone), but her motivations are less clear than ever, so I'm left assuming that this hollow character must still have the hollowest of motivations--popularity, power, getting back at the kids who rebuffed her... after having 5 seasons of truly delicious drama, why on earth would I want to turn the worst thing about those 5 seasons into main course?

I know I am far from being alone in hating Lila Rossi's character. There are literally thousands of fics tagged with "Lila's Lies Are Exposed" because so many readers want to see her be punished for her actions. I'm actually not really a fan of these--I don't take joy in seeing Lila being taken down. I want her to disappear from the narrative entirely. If the current state of United States politics has taught me anything, it's that that watching a terrible person get their comeuppance is never as satisfying as you think it will be because that terrible person will keep popping up and keep being terrible and keep forcing you to think about them. The best possible punishment I can think of for Lila is to act like she's just an OC made from some background character that never mattered in the first place--and then never have to think about her existence in the show again.

I was happy to watch the first 5 seasons of Miraculous Ladybug. I wish it had only been those 5 seasons (side note: Chat deserved to go up against his father in the final battle. I get that he couldn't since the mandate for more seasons requires the identities to be intact, but this was the point in the narrative when the reveal was meant to happen and it has weakened the story to move it elsewhere). I haven't decided to not watch season 6 at this point, but knowing who I will have to deal with in every episode? It's making it very difficult for me to want to continue any further.

[dovelylittlebird]

YESSS!! THANK YOU!!

With regards to the ML season 5 finale:

I’ve seen some people bemoan Marinette for letting her guard down in front of Gabriel since that enabled him to make his Wish—a classic case of the hero being stupid because the plot needed it happen. But actually? I think it was the very fact that she did let her guard down that helped save the world.

Ladybug has always been shown as being a compassionate person, and this became more pronounced when she started handing out protective charms and giving the akumatized victims the encouragement they needed to help fight back against succumbing to their negative emotions. (side note: I will admit I previously thought it was weird when the show kept having her hand these out after Shadowmoth figured out how to break them, but after the group effort of everyone using their charms to help Prof. Damocles, I realized that they were showing that continued effort to be kind was the right thing to do, even when those efforts failed, because in aggregate it will help things get better).

Marinette is someone who has learned to see and recognize others when they’re at their lowest and support them, and when she realizes that her archenemy is just as human as all the villains she’s faced before, she shows him compassion too. And Gabriel responds to it! Moments before, he was raving about having his perfect universe with his perfect family, with Adrien and Kagami being the iconic perfect couple as its crowning jewel. It’s Marinette who brings him back down to reality and gives him the wake-up call he’s sorely needed—and she can only do that by, not confronting him and judging him, but honestly empathizing with him. She has all the power to crush him and he knows it, so when she instead responds with understanding and reminds him of what Emilie really wanted, the simple truth of it breaks his resolve to get everything he wants—and with that clarity he is finally able to stop being in denial about Emilie’s death and prioritize the happiness Adrien made for himself over what Gabriel thought was best for him.

Naturally, the second that even a hint of a solution pops up, Gabe falls back into his old patterns of grasping at slim chances, but when he does? He doesn’t have the same goals anymore. When he makes the Wish, whatever his heart and soul asked for didn’t include his perfect vision that forced everyone into their boxes of what he thought was right. It saved Nathalie (whose illness was directly caused by Gabriel’s wrongdoings as Hawkmoth, so it’s understandable he’d still want to set that right), and it may or may not have saved Emilie (I personally think that he didn’t, but we’ll see), but Gabriel wasn’t part of that world and Adrien was free to live his life on his own terms. That would not have happened if Gabriel had gotten his hands on the ring and earrings before Marinette helped him change, just enough, to let his obsession go.

Marinette may have made some mistakes in the finale, but being the person who helps others isn’t one of them. There’s a reason Ladybug is considered the greatest hero in the Miraculous universe: it’s not just because she saves the day, but because she inspires people—even those who have hurt her—to choose to become better. The fact that she did so with Gabriel “Monarch” Agreste is pretty amazing in my book.