#no one's allowed to kill the king otherwise they have to fight dani

[ekat-fandom-blog]

How Monarch's Are Chosen

So it's a pretty accepted headcanon that the title of King (or queen even) is won via fighting the previous King/Queen. But what if instead of being a strict right-of-conquest type thing, it was like handed down like most monarchies as well as a right-of-conquest. As in if there's no one next in line for the crown, it's a right-of-conquest type deal. Groups can fight for the title and decide among themselves who deserves the title out of the ones that fought the battle. That's why none of the Observers were crowned, they couldn't decide who deserved the title most and thought they'd have more time to debate.

When Danny, his friends, and his rogues fought Pariah and won, none of them wanted the crown. But most of them decided that Danny would be a fair king and would have less time to keep them in check. Or in Skulker's case it made Danny a higher value target. You also can't just say no when offered the crown, so Danny eventually becomes king.

Something no one thought about though? This would make his sister/cousin/children/spouse royalty too. Dani is now technically next in line and she's going to use her new found status to her advantage.

[lovelyladyabsinthewrites]

From the Ashes story plotline pt 2/2

since i don't know if or when i'll get back to this story, someone did ask if i could give the basic plot of it so here's the second part

pt1

what a surprise to get back from the sky to find rhaegar targaryen standing in the manor's courtyard. you don't quite believe it when you land. you think it's even a mirage or the permanent fog creating an odd affect. but it's your silver prince. your husband. your rhaegar. you can't imagine the how different you look to him. no longer that fearful little girl. he's not the same either. a huge ugly scar running vertically across his otherwise beautiful face. the two of you just stand there staring at the other. you're uncertain. will he be disappointed? he makes the first move and walks up to you. further rendering you speechless when he drops to his knees and you see the tears in his eyes.

cue me taking a line from httyd2 "You're as beautiful as the day i lost you" you don't have time to remember how he'd felt about lyanna or the pain he caused you. you allow your heart to do the thinking and collapse into him. i had a sweet smutty idea for reunion sex 😅

barristan and ashara dayne find prince visarys and baby dany. along with ser willem darry all travel to sunspear

reader's group and rhaegar's leave asshai. latilth is still fairly young and can't fly for long periods like kushul can so they have to stop. . . you guessed it, yi ti. when cersei's prince hears of azor ahai reborn in the city with not one dragon now, but two, hieu is eager to invite prince rhaegar targaryen and azor ahai reborn to his palace. cersei's practically salivating. this was it, she'd be able to get to reader and finish her off. her and dritan plan to lure you away and kill you during the party. while at the party, a majority of the darkin and rhaegar's men remain to keep guard over the dragons. reader, rhaegar, rhiannon, inniros, griff and loviisa go to the party. she immediately spots cersei when reader is introduced to prince hieu and his imperial harem. at some point reader does pull away from the party when she tries to follow cersei. she's trapped in a room by cersei and dritan whom she is equally shocked to see there. he has a jagged scar "courtesy of your brother". reader and dritan sword fight. he's strong but he can't fend off the flames that melt his skin. when he's caught off guard that's when lightbringer skewers right through dritan. this is the first time reader has killed anyone with her own weapon. she's distracted by this and doesn't notice cersei come up behind her with a stiletto dagger thoroughly coated with poison. she gets one slice in before inniros' shadow stops her. rhaegar and the others barge into the room. cersei is taken prisoner. she has one more trick up her sleeve and it's for rhaegar. honestly i didn't work out the detail of how cersei would get close enough to poison rhaegar, but she manages to do it and kills him 🙃

once back in volantis and everyone reunited, a funeral pyre is built for rhaegar. a trial is held against cersei in the temple. tywin refused to save cersei from the fate of reader's execution blade. reader turns out to be pregnant. discovers this before setting sail for westeros. utterly devastated the entire voyage but rhiannon, jaime, inniros and tyrion are there to support reader through such troubled waters. also a new plan of attack is developed when they get to storm's end and call upon rhaegar's banner. robert baratheon encourages reader to take the iron throne since she carries rhaegar's heir. bunch of arguments that reader shouldn't join the rest of the men in battle since she was pregnant. she refuses to stand by. reader has two dragons after all. ashara and barristan show up at storm's end before they were scheduled to set out to king's landing via black water bay. little viserys and dany with them. lyanna watches over them (she's due to give birth to who will be jon baratheon). kushul easily takes out aerys' fleet and archers with his flames. Latilth, with reader atop, smashes through the great hall of the red keep. jaime, ned and robert lead an army on foot that had fiery hands, darkin, dornish, northerners, etc to take the city. reader slays aerys and becomes queen of the seven kingdoms.

several months later, reader gives birth to triplets: Vaegon, Rhaenyra and Maelor.

now what happens with the long night? that was supposed to be in the third book of the series i was planning (paradise of light and shadow) but honestly can't imagine that i'll get to it now 😅😂

anyway yeah, that's what i had planned for 'from the ashes'. i got burned out from even writing out the bare bones. this fic could have gone up to 100 chapters easily.

one day i may return to it. but for now this is the best i can give you 🙃

if you have any other qustions about it or want me to elaborate on certain parts, let me know 😊

[lemonhemlock]

I'm a 'Martin won't ever publish another ASOIAF book' truther but in addition to King Bran being profoundly idiotic, Martin has major structural issues that are now too 'big' to 'fix' imo. Namely, the ages of the characters are ridiculous and are all wrong for where their arcs need to go. The characters on the show were aged up and even the younger ones grew up on screen so Bran and Sansa and Arya were at least into late teens/adulthood at the end of the show - one is 13 and other is currently 11 and Bran is like, what, 8 in books? sksksksksk Just absolutely disastrous.

The characters should have been in their mid to late teens at the start of AGOT, at minimum. Especially because Martin essentially treated them, and has them act, like adults. I'm sorry, but I don't think that man has any understanding between the mental and physical developmental differences between, say, a 14 year old girl and a 17 year old girl. Every character appears and acts like they are anywhere from 3 to 5 years older than they are.

Also, the POV structure, while interesting, has also been disastrous in actually getting the story moving because certain characters have to be in certain places for things to happen while others are just sitting around killing time.

Hmmm, I don't really agree about the POV structure. It functioned fine for three books and offered compelling court drama, battles, magical elements and intriguing plot-twists. AGOT / ACOK / ASOS are pretty well paced and I've even seen someone making the case that the series could even have ended in that point and would have been one of the best fictional fantasy experiments. I found myself agreeing and disagreeing. I think the ASOS ending would have still distinguished ASOIAF from other fantasy series in its toppling of the good-guys-win-everything type of wrap-up, but it would be way less ambitious than what GRRM ended up pursuing.

The pacing problems came about with AFFC/ADWD. And I'm not one to talk here, because I'm an AFFC truther and it's always been my favourite of the series, so my two cents on this is that Dany's Slaver's Bay plotline is too damn long. Tyrion is also taking too damn long to get to her. It's a drag. In the book she is supposed to solve the Quaithe riddle,* escape Vaes Dothrak, get herself an army + navy, make the decision to leave Slaver's Bay AND sail to Westeros, so that in TWOW she can fight Young Gryff, face-off the Others, become a mask-off tyrant AND get deposed? It's a lot.

I honestly think he should just give up the 7 book compartmentation, admit defeat and just add another damn book to the series to get Dany to Westeros and fit in his fAegon plotline. It's not like he doesn't have the pages. No one's gonna care if there are 8 books instead of magic no 7. But my guess is that he's hung up over some decisions he's made in the past and kept trying to make the gargantuan plot fit inside this neat box he envisioned - 7 books, King Bran, Caesar!Jon etc. It would explain why he tried a time skip between ASOS and AFFC and had to scrap it - it would make more sense for the Stark children to be older. But he characterized himself as a gardener-style writing who doesn't plan everything in advance and lets the story grow organically. In that case, he should make allowances if the story grew in a direction he did not initially predict and make the required changes! Maybe King Bran made sense when he first wrote the initial three-book outline, but that was a long time ago & many other plot points changed.

My advice is to just stop trying to make the plot fit the previous designs, stay true to the way the characters evolved and respect the themes you've painstakingly developed over the course of nearly 30 years. Otherwise what's the point? If your original ending doesn't fit anymore, think of another ending ffs. The show is irrelevant at this point, so what if the endgame will be different? IDK, I'd be thinking that this is my life's work and I have every right to do it justice. Perhaps that's what he's thinking too and why it's taking him so long.

I agree that the ages of the characters are ridiculous, but if a time skip really, really can't fit anywhere, it's better to compromise on the age issue and leave off with a teen monarch than it would be to impose a surveillance state in Westeros as the solution with all-seeing, all-knowing Bran. That's a starkly dystopic ending, if you ask me.

Not to mention that it clashes directly with the end of magic - how is Bran supposed to be the Tree of Sauron if there's no magic anymore and everything goes back to normal? On what basis does he even get to be king at all if he's just a regular boy? How will he even survive being pulled out of the weirwood net if magic leaves the realm of men?

*“To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.” JFC, if Dany has to get to Asshai, I will fucking scream.

[suresha]

:｡･:*:･ﾟ’★,｡･:*:･ﾟ’☆  ||  @multiversemadnesss​  (  Jaime  and  Daenerys )

          Leaving  Meereen  had  been  the  first  of  many  mistakes  made  by  the  former  queen.  Or  perhaps  mistakes  were  made  long  before  Meereen.  She's  had  nearly  a  month  to  sit  and  contemplate  what  went  wrong  but  no  scenario  was  more  to  blame  than  another.  Fact  is,  Daenerys  had  been  way  over  her  head;  far  too  trusting  in  a  world  where  everyone  was  constantly  making  moves.  She  could  almost  hear  the  voice  of  Viserys  at  night  screaming  at  her  while  she  fretfully  slept.

          ❝Pathetic  sister.  And  you  dare  call  yourself  a  dragon?❞

          Dragon.  Some  dragon.  She  allowed  one  of  her  children  to  become  the  property  of  the  White  Walkers.  With  their  defeat,  so  went  Viserion  leaving  only  Rhaegal  and  Drogon  behind.  And  speaking  of  Drogon...  If  not  for  him,  her  fiercest  of  beasts,  she  might  not  be  alive  today.  Sometimes  she  wondered  if  she  were  better  off  dead.  At  the  very  least,  she  could  have  reunited  with  her  sons.

          But  what's  done  is  done.  The  Red  Woman  she  met  some  time  after  settling  in  Meereen  claimed  she  received  a  vision.  She  was  waiting  alongside  Barristan  and  the  few  Unsullied  left  behind  in  the  city  when  Drogon  dropped  her  body  of  within  the  old  fighting  pit.  They  brought  her  back  to  life  within  a  city  that  seemed  to  be  doing  well  enough  despite  high  tensions  outside  of  it.  Each  day,  Ser  Barristan  greeted  her,  urging  her  to  take  her  position  as  queen  of  this  city.  After  hearing  what  went  down  in  Westeros,   he  dared  not  encourage  her  to  go  back  ---  not  when  it  seemed  all  was  decided  now.  Bran  Stark  was  no  Daenerys  Targaryen,  and  in  the  old  knight's  mind,  he  could  never  be  what  she  could  have  been  if  not  for  betrayal.  Nevertheless,  the  old  knight  refused  to  serve  another  who  sat  upon  that  wretched  chair.  Dany  was  his  queen  from  now  until  death  whether  she  wanted  him  to  be  or  not.

          Days  in  Meereen  were  rather  uneventful.  Dany  spent  much  of  her  time  alone  in  her  quarters.  She  would  eat  enough  to  please  Barristan.  Otherwise,  she  preferred  to  be  alone.  Sometimes  she  would  spend  that  time  crying  like  the  little girl  she  never  got  to  be.  Other  times,  she  would  ponder  where  to  go  from  here.  With  only  a  forth  of  her  army,  do  she  dare  leave  and  settle  some  place  else,  or  make  Meereen  her  permanent  home?  After  all,  Dany  never  had  home  so  any  place  could  become  home  if  she  willed  it.

          ❝My  queen,  it's  urgent.❞

          Ser  Barristan  stood  just  outside  her  quarters,  too  polite  to  merely  barge  inside  in  Dany  wasn't  decent.  The  young  queen  was  curled  up  upon  the  bed  but  slowly  gathered  herself  to  walk  across  the  room.  Dressed  only  in  a  long,  plain  pale  pink  dress,  she  pulled  open  the  door.

          ❝Ser?  Is  something  wrong?❞

          Ser  Barristan  stood  aside  to  reveal  two  of  her  unsullied  chained  to  a  man  who  looked  vaguely  familiar.  Post  death,  many  faces  seemed  to  blur  together  within  Dany's  grief.  She  looked  to  Barristan,  clearly  confused  until  the  old  knight  filled  in  the  gap.

          ❝This  here  is  the  man  you  know  as  Kingslayer,  but  I  knew  him  once  upon  a  time  as  Ser  Jaime  Lannister.  Normally  I  wouldn't  insist  that  you  two  meet,  but  he  has  stories  about  the  aftermath  of  the  mess  in  King's  Landing.  He's  not  looking  for  trouble  and  oddly  enough,  I  trust  him.  Not  completely,  but  he's  unarmed.  I  don't  see  why  he  would wish  to  kill  you  again  when  everyone  still  believes  you  to  be  dead  anyway.❞

          Dany  stared  between  the  two  men  curiously.  In  truth,  she  didn't  care  at  all  about  Jaime,  King's  Landing  or  anything  anymore.  She  just  wished  to  be  left  alone  but...  the  old  man  had  never  done  anything  to  steer  her  astray  and  so  she  nodded,  stepping  aside  to  let  Jaime  enter.  Her  long,  white  hair  wasn't  as  tidy  as  it  used  to  be.  It  looked  unkempt  ---  as  if  she  had  just  woken  from  a  nap.  But  why  bother  looking  regal?  Why  bother  with  any  of  it  anymore  when  she  was  nothing  more  than  the  Mad  King's  daughter  now?  Nothing  mattered  anymore.

          ❝So  what  brings  you  all  the  way  down  here?  I  was  told  before  being  stabbed  in  the  chest  that  the  lot  of  you  had  fled  or  was  dead.  You  look  very  much  alive  to  me.❞

[megsironthrone]

Smuggled Away

Based on this request:  Hi! The request about a Bratheon!reader got me thinking, what if there's a similar situation where the reader's king robert's daughter or a stark or something like that and the reader ends up getting smuggled away when jamie leaves cersei in kings landing and ends up reuniting with jon snow at some point and she kinda ends up kindling a spark with jon snow and interrupts the whole jon Daenerys thing? i'm not sure if this request makes much sense or if it would be good or not > . <

Here you go, lovely! I changed it just a little and ended up making her a Lannister (mostly so I wouldn’t get this request and the Robb one confused while I was writing XD.) *Familiar characters are not mine!

Warnings: SLIGHT (POSSIBLE) SPOILERS FOR SEASON 8.  FLUFF!!!!!!!!

Pairings/Characters: Jon Snow x fem!Lannister reader, Jaime Lannister, Sansa Stark, Daenerys Targaryen. Brief mentions of Tyrion Lannister as well. 

You were hiding and listening when your aunt, Cersei told Jaime she had no intention of letting her army fight the Army of the Dead. You had always been disgusted with her, but now you were frightened. She cared more about the throne than the realm she was supposed to be protecting. And when she threatened to kill your Uncle Jaime, you became frightened for your life. If she would kill him, what was to stop her from killing you, the daughter of her most hated sibling?

         "Uncle Jaime!" you cried, seeing him heading for his horse. He stopped and faced you with wide eyes. "What is it?" Your eyes filled with tears. "Don't leave me here. Please. I-She might…I can't stay here." He looked at you with sympathy. "I can't take you, Y/N. Cersei would never let you leave the city. Not when she could use you as leverage."

         "Please, Uncle Jaime. My father hardly knows me. He kept his distance if only to protect me. She will kill me. Please." Jaime glanced around to make sure no one was around before he threw a cloak over your shoulders. "Keep the hood up and your head down. I'm no smuggler, but I will do my best." You tied the cloak and put the hood up as he hoisted you up onto his horse. You knew you were riding North, but you gave no thought to the fact that you and your former love would be reunited once more.

         You stood behind Jaime with shaking knees. You kept your eyes on his back even though you wanted desperately to look at the faces of those people who would decide your fate. "Lady Brienne speaks highly of you, Ser Jaime. I say you should stay," Sansa said, making you breathe a sigh of relief. If they were willing to keep Jaime alive, maybe there was hope for you. After all, you hadn't done anything other than being a Lannister.

         "Thank you, my lady. And, what of my niece?" At that, you finally looked up at Sansa and Daenerys. "And why should we allow your sister's daughter to remain? She could be a spy." You narrowed your eyes slightly. You did not like this woman. Not one bit. And you especially did not like the way she kept looking at Jon. Still, you knew you had to say something. Anything to convince her to let you stay.

         "I beg your pardon, Your Grace. But I am NOT Cersei's daughter. Tyrion Lannister is my father. My mother, his first wife, bore me in secret to protect me from Cersei and Tywin. It has only been the last few years that I have come to know my family. Would you punish a young woman for the sins of her family the way Robert Baratheon punished you for the sins of your father? Uncle Jaime smuggled me out of King's Landing to protect me. If you turn me away, then I shall return to my aunt's keeping as I have nowhere else to go. But then my blood will be on your hands."

         The whole room went still and quiet as they watched with bated breath to see what Daenerys would say. You took that opportunity to glance at Jon for the first time since you'd arrived. Your own breath caught in your throat when you saw his eyes already on you. His lips were turned into a slight frown, but that was normal for him. And his eyes held a hint of the boy you used to know. The boy you had fallen in love with was now a young man. A handsome one too.

         "I do not agree with allowing Lannisters into our midst. Lord Tyrion has proven himself loyal. The two of you have not. You have proven time and again that your loyalty is to Cersei." Daenerys said. She and Sansa exchanged glares before looking to Jon to keep the peace. Without taking his eyes off you, Jon replied, "I agree…with Sansa. We need every sword we can get in the fight." With that, he rose and left the room.

         Daenerys looked heartbroken and more than a little angry. She got up and left the room in the opposite direction while Sansa came over to you. "Come. I'm certain you're freezing. Let's get you a bath and some dry clothes." You gave her a grateful smile as you followed her out. As you trailed behind her, Sansa spoke. "You know, of all the Lannisters I've met, you are by far my favorite. You aren't like your family."

         "Perhaps because I was not raised by them, my lady." Sansa smiled and laughed softly. For a few seconds, she didn't speak. Then she said, "I believe you and Jon would be good together." You nearly tripped on the hem of your wet, dirty dress. "I-I…I don't know what you mean, my lady." Sansa giggled again, something that seemed out of place in her otherwise somber countenance.

         "Everyone saw how Jon was looking at you in there. And I remember how close you were all those years ago. You loved Jon and I think you still do." You let out a sigh. "Of course I do. Even though I knew there was never any hope for us. The Imp's daughter and Ned Stark's bastard? As soon as my identity was discovered, I was shipped off to King's Landing to learn to be a proper lady and Jon was destined for the Wall. We were doomed before we even met."

         "Now you sound like him," Sansa said with a sigh. She turned to look at you as you stopped outside one of the doors. "After you are cleaned up, you should talk to him." She opened the door and ushered you inside. As soon as you were settled, Sansa left and you enjoyed a warm bath. You let out a groan as the warmth began seeping into your sore muscles. You hadn't known how badly you needed to relax.

         You heard the door open and sighed. You thought it was a handmaiden or someone that Sansa sent with a new dress, without opening your eyes, you said, "I can dress myself, thank you. Please just put the dress on the bed." For a moment, there was no response. Your brows furrowed and you were about to speak again when someone beat you to it.

         "I think you have me mistaken for someone else." Your eyes flew open and you looked over at the door where Jon was still standing. He was a respectful distance away so he couldn't see anything, but you felt your skin heat up anyway. "J-Jon…the door." Jon's own face turned red. "I'll come back once you've finished." He turned to leave.

         "Jon, I just meant you should close the door. The last thing I want is for someone I don't know to see me like this." Jon slowly closed the door and turned back to you. Silence came over the two of you again. You simply stared into each other's eyes from across the room. Then you spoke at the same time, saying each other's names. You giggled as you motioned for Jon to continue.

         "I've missed you. At the Wall thoughts of you kept me up nights." You felt yourself flush again. You cleared your throat. "It seems you didn't miss me nearly as much as I missed you." At Jon's confused look, you went on, "Daenerys. I saw the way she looked at you. Like she's got you wrapped around her finger." Jon was by your side, kneeling next to the tub, in an instant.

         "It was one time. And I never felt for her the depth of feeling I have always had for you." You looked into his dark eyes, which were still on your face despite how close he was. "Do you mean that?" His lips turned up slightly into a small smile. "I do. Y/N, no one could ever compare to you. I have already told Daenerys that nothing will come of our time together. She isn't you."

         You beamed at him as tears pricked your eyes. At least there was something good coming from all the bad in this. You had Jon. "I should go. I have a war to plan for." You nodded. "I'd ask you to join me in the bath first, but I'm afraid this Northern air has the water already cold," you said with a shiver." Jon chuckled before he kissed your forehead.

         "It wouldn't be proper anyway." You arched a brow. "Jon, you are kneeling next to the bath where I am sitting. Naked, I might add. I don't think propriety is the issue here." Jon's face flushed again and you couldn't help but laugh. When your laughter died down, you caught Jon looking at you again. You reached over and ran your fingers over the beard covering his jaw.

          "I love you, Jon." He rested his forehead against yours. "And I love you." With a grin, you reached up, wrapped your arm around his neck, and pulled him into the tub with you. Jon's laughter joined your own just before he brought his lips to yours. Water splashed to the floor as Jon tried to get up, only to slip and splash again. The winter winds blew outside and you could hear the logs crackling in the hearth, but nothing kept you as warm, as comfortable, or as loved as having Jon there with you.  

(a/n: I really hope you like it. I tried to make it so the reader could dislike Daenerys without making Dany really hateful, if that makes sense.)

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[theusurpersdog]

The Price of Peace

In my first two pieces on A Dance with Dragons, I discussed the political aspect and relationships within Dany’s arc; and those aspects are extremely important because the way Daenerys interacts with the world reveals pieces of her. But they are just reflections of the most important part of her story: the human heart in conflict with itself.

The way her 10 chapters are written is extremely intentional; they are meant to act as mirror images of each other; the choices Daenerys is forced to make in the first three chapters are the choices she is again forced to make in the last three chapters. The point of this is so we can see how she has changed over the course of the story; at the end of her arc, she makes the opposite choices than she did at the beginning – instead of chaining her dragons she flies off on Drogon, abandons her “floppy ears”, and instead of staying in Meereen decides to leave.

And beyond the chapters in this book, GRRM has designed Daenerys’ whole story to be circular; everything about her time in Meereen harkens back to her time with the Dothraki, and her final chapter on the Dothraki Sea is an almost exact recreation of her last chapter in A Game of Thrones. Just as the middle chapters of A Dance with Dragons function as the connecting thread between Daenerys’ change of heart, A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords connect the little girl from the first chapter of A Game of Thrones to the khaleesi embracing fire & blood at the end of A Dance with Dragons. And that’s why this book feels like the climax of Dany’s story; because everything she’s done has been building to Daenerys X.

Only One Thing Frightens Me Now

In previous books, especially A Storm of Swords, we see Daenerys begin embracing her connection to her dragons, using it to explain her fiery nature and short temper. But when she is presented with Hazzea’s bones, it forces Dany to reckon with the truth of that connection:

“Lannister or Stark, what difference? Viserys used to call them the Usurper’s dogs. If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? All the dogs are just as guilty. The guilt. . .” The word caught in her throat. Hazzea.

For a long time now, she has known what her dragons were capable of; in A Clash of Kings she feared they would burn her kingdom to the ground, and in A Storm of Swords she feared they would hurt Irri and Jhiqui after Drogon bit and burned them. But she chose to ignore the red flags because her dragons were her children. And worse, they were her path to power:

If I look back, I am doomed. Dany told herself . . . but how could she not look back? I should have seen it coming. Was I so blind, or did I close my eyes willfully, so I would not have to see the price of power?

When Eroeh was hurt in A Game of Thrones, Daenerys was able to tell herself that it wasn’t her fault, that all she had done was try to help her. But the blood of Hazzea’s death is on Dany’s hands and she can’t pretend otherwise. Daenerys had always had some amount of fear that she could be capable of the cruelty her father and brother displayed, but this is proof to her that she has already let herself become something she never wanted to be. So she locks her dragons away; refusing to allow anyone else to get hurt, or herself to be tempted by their power.

And for the first several chapters of A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys is heartbroken; for her dragons and for herself. Before, they had been like her children, but now she can only think of them with disgust:

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought, Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world?

And beyond the shame she feels for placing her dragons ahead of her people, Daenerys is scared of what she might become:

“Only one thing frightens me now.”

“And what is it that you fear, sweet queen?”

“I am only a foolish young girl.” Dany rose on her toes and kissed his cheeks. “But not so foolish as to tell you that.”

These lines make it very clear that the only thing that frightens Dany is herself; but a pre-released chapter from before A Dance with Dragons was published made it even more clear:

She looks at Ser Barristan and tells him that she told Xaro that she feared only one thing, though she would not tell the merchant what. Ser Barristan guesses that she only fears her dragons. “Myself,” Dany tells him

This fear she has of herself is made even clearer in this passage:

She was the blood of the dragon, but Ser Barristan had warned her that in that blood there was a taint. Could I be going mad? They had called her father mad, once.

This is the first time Daenerys acknowledges that being “the blood of the dragon” could be negative, and enforces her belief that she should completely turn her back on her dragons.

Looking Back

I call so much attention to Daenerys’ chaining of her dragons and fear over her own impulses because it is so contradictory to the choices she will make in the last several chapters.

Like I said earlier, GRRM designed her chapters to be circular in nature to highlight Dany’s change of heart through the course of the book. But her change of heart does not happen suddenly; it happens slowly, as she begins to forget Hazzea and her father.

At first, she feels guilty even mentioning her dragons to Xaro Xhoan Daxos:

“My dragons have grown, my shoulders have not. They range far afield, hunting.” Hazzea, forgive me.

But by the time Quentyn arrives in Meereen, she is willing to flaunt her dragons for him:

“They are dragons, Quentyn.” Dany stood on her toes and kissed him lightly once on each cheek. “And so am I.”

A part of the reason she can never let her dragons go is that she really did see them as her children, and they protected her when no one else could:

Drogon saved me when they would have drained my life from me. Drogon burned them all.

When Drogon disappears, she genuinely misses him as if she has lost a child.

But even more than that, the dragons are a piece of her. In the same way that the Starks share a special bond with their direwolves, Daenerys has imprinted on her dragons; to deny them is to deny herself. That’s why she seeks out comfort in the form of Daario once she has caged them:

And who would ever dare to love a dragon?

She found herself thinking of Daario Naharis once again

Everything in Meereen is built on Dany’s rejection of her dragons; not because she wants or planned for it to be this way, but because she must give up on her dragons to protect her people. And that gets to the heart of Dany’s despair at everything in Meereen; because her and her dragons are so interconnected, she must reject herself to be Queen of Meereen. Dany understands this when she chains her dragons, and understands that she should reject the parts of herself that allowed Hazzea to die; she spends nearly the entirety of A Dance with Dragons trying to change who she is. That’s what she is doing when she chains her dragons, makes peace with Astapor and Yunkai, marries Hizdahr, and opens the fighting pits.

But change is easier said than done, and even though Daenerys constantly places everyone above herself, she can’t quite commit to leaving her dragons and true nature behind. As I explored in my last meta, Daario is Dany’s outlet for her “dragon” desires, and the more she commits to Meereen, the more she gives to Daario; until she has to marry Hizdahr, and has to end her affair with Daario. Not coincidentally, it is right after this that she decides to leave Meereen for good.

Dreams of Smoke and Fire

Throughout the series, even before they hatched, the dragons have been on a parallel journey with Daenerys. And while she spends most of A Dance with Dragons apart from them, Dany still shares much of her story with Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion.

The way Rhaegal and Viserion are chained at the start of the story is symbolic of how Daenerys must give up part of herself to be Queen of Meereen. And much like Daenerys holds on to Daario as refuge, not all of the dragons are caged:

Two score of her bravest had risked themselves trying to capture him. Almost all had suffered burns, and four of them had died. The last she had seen of Drogon had been at sunset on the night of the third attempt. The black dragon had been flying north across the Skahazadhan toward the tall grasses of the Dothraki sea. He had not returned.

Even while Daenerys and her dragons labor in Meereen, a part of them is returning to the Dothraki Sea.

And just as Daenerys begins to grow tired and frustrated with the city and seeks more and more comfort with Daario, her dragons slowly begin to work their way free:

Down in the pit, Viserion had snapped one of his chains; he and Rhaegal grew more savage every day.

The bones on the floor of the pit were deeper than the last time she had been down here, and the walls and floors were black and grey, more ash than brick. They would not hold much longer … but behind them was only earth and stone. Can dragons tunnel through rock, like the firewyrms of old Valyria? She hoped not.

In the days leading up to the events of Daznak’s Pit, Daenerys begins to have dreams similar to the ones she had on the Dothraki Sea:

She was still talking when Dany finally fell to sleep, to dream queer, half-formed dreams of smoke and fire.

Drogon arrives in Daznak’s Pit just as Daenerys decides she can’t handle to proceedings anymore, and rips off the tokar that represents the peace she has made in the city. And when the spearmen begin trying to kill him, it affects Daenerys just as much as the dragon:

Drogon raised his head, blood dripping from his teeth. The hero leapt onto his back and drown the iron spearpoint down at the base of the dragon’s long scaled neck.

Dany and Drogon screamed as one.

Even when Daenerys has flown off with Drogon and left Meereen, her other two dragons continue to parallel her journey; Rhaegal and Viserion break free of their chains just as Daenerys symbolically breaks free of hers.

And once her and Drogon are in the Dothraki Sea, Drogon’s refusal to leave “Dragonstone” for Meereen is a reflection of Daenerys’ own desire to leave the city.

All of these connections work to make one point very clear: Daenerys is her dragons. So much of her arc over the last two books comes down to Daenerys having to choose between her people or her dragons, but it’s a choice she cannot make because she will always return to the dragons. At the end of A Game of Thrones, standing in the burning funeral pyre as her dragons hatch, this is what she thought to herself:

I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons

She made the choice to become those things when she sacrificed Mirri Maz Dur, and it’s a choice she is unable to turn her back on, no matter how hard she tries.

And GRRM has gone out of his way to make clear that this is a bad thing. The dragons cannot be tamed, chained, or overpowered. They are an unstoppable and unpredictable force, and everyone around them must cater to their whims or be burned along the way. Daenerys herself faces the consequences of dragons from thousands of years prior; the people in Meereen are starving because none of the ground is fertile, and none of the ground is fertile because Valyrian dragons scorched the earth. Hazzea’s death is the culmination of a pattern of escalation from Dany’s dragons; a tragic inevitability because Daenerys allowed them to be free.

I find it very interesting because, as I’ll elaborate below, the last two chapters of Dany’s Dance arc are focused on her undoing the decisions she makes in the first few chapters as she returns to the choices she made at the end of A Game of Thrones, that she also undoes a pivotal choice she made in A Storm of Swords. As I mentioned in the meta I wrote for that book, Daenerys went to Slaver’s Bay to buy an army, and “Breaker of Chains” humanitarian efforts came next; a side quest that became her main storyline. And it became her main storyline when she decides to lead the Unsullied as free men:

She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside.

But when she decides to tame Drogon and ride away from Daznak’s Pit, she does the opposite:

She scrabbled in the sand, pushing against the pitmaster's corpse, and her fingers brushed against the handle of his whip. Touching it made her feel braver. The leather was warm, alive.

A Dragon or a Harpy

Daenerys’ time in Meereen is defined by her steadfast refusal to accept any part of their culture; she hates their food, she hates their customs and traditions, and it is a burden for her to even wear the tokar. This is a startling contrast to how willing she was to join Dothraki culture in A Game of Thrones, where she tells Jorah she is not a Queen but a Khaleesi. Her attitudes toward the Meereenese are much more in line with Viserys’ view of the Dothraki; the same way Viserys complained of their strange clothes, foreign tongue, and general “savagery”, even the way Viserys was appalled by the way they eat horse meat, is paralleled in how Daenerys discusses those aspects of Meereenese culture, except replace “horse meat” with “dog meat”. While Daenerys has some moral objections to Meereen, she hates most of their things because she is angry she has to be there, stuck a world away from the Seven Kingdoms, just as Viserys hated the Dothraki because they wouldn’t sail across the Narrow Sea for him.

Daenerys connection to Viserys grows as she is forced into the same position he was; watching helplessly as the Iron Throne slips slowly out of her grasp. Much more than any prior book, Daenerys constantly hears his advice in her mind:

"I am the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "Have you ever seen a dragon with the flux?" Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted common men, and so far as she could tell, it was true.

Viserys would have his head off for that insolence.

“If my brother Viserys had known that he had a Dornish princess waiting for him, he would have crossed to Sunspear as soon as he was old enough to wed."

I did wait. For my crown, for my throne, for you. All those years, and all I ever got was a pot of molten gold. Why did they give the dragon's eggs to you? They should have been mine. If I'd had a dragon, I would have taught the world the meaning of our words. Viserys began to laugh, until his jaw fell away from his face, smoking, and blood and molten gold ran from his mouth.

These parallels aren’t meant to suggest that Daenerys is becoming Viserys as much as they are to show the fulfillment of Dany’s own fears; through Clash and Storm, she has worried that if she had to beg and wait as Viserys did, she could become him. And in A Dance with Dragons, she has to beg for every small amount of peace the Sons of the Harpy will allow her, and abandon Astapor and Yunkai back to slavery, as well as marry herself away to Hizdahr zo Loraq; all so one day Meereen might be peaceful enough for her to sail to Westeros. This waiting and begging chips at her sanity the same way it did Viserys.

Complicating Dany’s moral distaste for Meereen is the way she unintentionally perpetuates some of the worst aspects of the culture. As I broke down in a previous meta, Dany tortures prisoners en masse and allows the Shavepate to torture innocent children in front of their fathers. She also forces people into hard labor:

Xaro gave a languid shrug. “As it happens, when I came ashore in your sweet city, I chanced to see upon the riverbank a man who had once been a guest in my manse, a merchant who dealt in rare spices and choice wines. He was naked from the waist up, red and peeling, and seemed to be digging a hole.”

“Not a hole. A ditch, to bring water from the river to the fields. We mean to plant beans. The beanfields must have water.”

“How kind of my old friend to help with the digging. And how very unlike him. Is it possible he was given no choice in the matter? No, surely not. You have no slaves in Meereen.”

Dany flushed. “Your friend is being paid with food and shelter. I cannot give him back his wealth. Meereen needs beans more than it needs rare spices, and beans require water.”

Daenerys never says the man is a criminal, and only mentions that he lost his wealth when the spice trade collapsed. To me, this strongly suggests the man is not a criminal being punished for his crimes, but a newly poor man being exploited due to his lack of options. And previously in A Storm of Swords, Daenerys had already decided to collect taxes from the temporary slave trade.

Yet Daenerys does not seem to notice the voluntary choices she makes to compromise her morality, instead focusing on the choices the Sons of the Harpy and Hizdahr force on her. But the symbolism of Drogon makes it clear:

Drogon hunted far afield, but when he was sated he liked to bask in the sun at the apex of the Great Pyramid, where once the harpy of Meereen had stood.

And Daenerys even living in the Great Pyramid begins to disconnect her from the people she is supposed to represent; in A Storm of Swords, she thinks to herself how different it is for those in the pyramids:

The stars were coming out above, and the silk lanterns below, just as Kraznys’s translator had promised. The brick pyramids were all glimmer with light. But it is dark below, in the streets and plazas and fighting pits. And it is darkest of all in the barracks, where some little boy is feeding scraps to the puppy they gave him when they took away his manhood.

Daenerys’ men are slaughtered in the streets as she stays atop her pyramid with Daario, too impatient to hear the complaints of her people:

"As my queen commands. Will you hold court today?"

"No.”

Mother to Us All

Daenerys is torn between being a mother to her people or to her dragons; and while she grows more tired of her role as Queen and pulls closer to Daario, she is also starting to hate the Meereenese smallfolk she stayed to protect.

The reason Daenerys was able to temporarily overcome her love for her dragons and chain them is because of how much she also loves her people; from the moment they declared her Mhysa, it fundamentally changed the way she perceived the world. Because of Mirri Maz Duur, Dany believes she will never be able to have kids; and in the immediate aftermath of that revelation, she treated her dragons like they were her only chance to be a mother. But thousands of smallfolk chose her to be their mother, which offers Daenerys the choice to be something more. Being the mother of dragons is what she wants, but being mhysa is the right thing to do. At the end of A Storm of Swords, Daenerys didn’t realize it was a choice she had to make, and tried to be both; but once Hazzea dies and she is forced to choose, she makes the right decision by placing her people first. But, slowly throughout A Dance with Dragons, she comes to regret that choice for two reasons: she feels as if she can’t help the people, and then realizes she doesn’t want to.

As I discussed before, Daenerys has to make a series of compromises with the Sons of the Harpy and the Masters of Astapor and Yunkai to keep the peace; one of these compromises is locking Meereen’s gates and leaving the Astapori refugees to die:

They were her children, but she could not help them now.

Dany has to make so many decisions that harm huge amounts of smallfolk to keep what little peace she has made in Meereen, and starts to feel as if nothing matters. If Astapor and Yunkai have returned to slavery anyway, why should she make herself miserable in Meereen when she could take her dragons and fly to Westeros?

Even more than a feeling of hopelessness, though, it is Dany’s dislike of the Meereenese that makes her regret choosing them over her dragons:

Ten thousand throats roared out their thanks; then twenty thousand; then all. They did not call her name, which few of them could pronounce. “Mother!” they cried instead; in the old dead tongue of Ghis, the word was Mhysa! They stamped their feet and slapped their bellies and shouted, “Mhysa, Mhysa, Mhysa,” until the whole pit seemed to tremble. Dany let the sound wash over her. I am not your mother, she might have shouted, back, I am the mother of your slaves, of every boy who ever died upon these sands whilst you gorged on honeyed locusts.

As Queen, Daenerys feels like she is forced to only represent the Nobles of Meereen instead of the slaves she stayed behind to protect. Being made to attend the fighting pits and watch as smallfolk fight and die for the pleasure of the Masters is the final insult to Daenerys.

But even though Dany tells herself she is the mother of their slaves, in truth it is clear she doesn’t like them either:

Daenerys was sick unto death of Zhak and Merreq; she was sick of all the Mereenese, great and small alike.

She has become so disconnected with “her people” that it’s a joke to her when Daario calls her out on it:

“On the morrow I will be a woman wed, and Hizdahr will be king. Let him hold court. These are his people."

"Some are his, some are yours. The ones you freed."

"Are you chiding me?"

"The ones you call your children. They want their mother."

"You are. You are chiding me."

The idea of the slaves appeals to Daenerys much more than the reality. The complete love and adoration she felt when she rode through the screaming crowd at the end of A Storm of Swords is what she wanted from the Meereenese when she chose to stay behind, but in reality they aren’t always like that; they are poor people who just want better lives, and get angry with Daenerys when she gets in the way of that, such as when they line up to be repaid for their animals that Drogon killed. The only slaves that never lose hope in Dany as a savior are the ones who live in Astapor, desperately clinging to the hope that someone could come save them:

“Every day we told each other that the dragon queen was coming back.” The woman had thin lips and dull dead eyes, set in a pinched and narrow face. “Cleon had sent for you, it was said, and you were coming.”

And those are the people she must shut outside the gates, again making her feel like everything she does is meaningless. By the time she has married Hizdahr and is opening the fighting pits to negotiate peace with Yunkai, Daenerys can’t even remember why she stayed in Meereen:

“I suppose I must be thankful for small victories,” the queen said.

“One step, then the next, and soon we shall be running. Together we shall make a new Meereen.” The street ahead had finally cleared. “Shall we continue on?”

What could she do but nod? One step, then the next, but where is it I’m going?

I think this divide within Daenerys, of wanting to be a mother to her people while slowly growing to despise them, is fascinating to view through the lens of her relationship to Missandei:

"I would sooner stay with you. On Naath I'd be afraid. What if the slavers came again? I feel safe when I'm with you."

Safe. The word made Dany’s eyes fill up with tears. “I want to keep you safe.” Missandei was only a child. With her, she felt as if she could be a child too. “No one ever kept me safe when I was little. Well, Ser Willem did, but then he died, and Viserys . . . I want to protect you but . . . it is so hard. To be strong. I don’t always know what I should do. I must know, though. I am all they have. I am the queen . . . the . . . the. . .”

“. . . mother,” whispered Missandei.

“Mother to dragons.” Dany shivered.

“No. Mother to us all.” Missandei hugged her tighter.

Missandei is exactly what Daenerys wanted when she chose to stay in Meereen; a former slave who loves and adores her, and because she is Dany’s own scribe she gets to feel safe and cared for (unlike the unprotected slaves living in the city). Beyond that, Missandei allows Daenerys to vicariously fix her own childhood; so much of Dany’s hatred of slavery comes from her own experience being sold by Viserys to Khal Drogo, and Daenerys sees herself in Missandei. As Daenerys says in the above quote, once Ser Willem died, she had no one to ever protect or even care for her, and she wants to be the mother she never had to anyone who feels scared or afraid.

I think it’s so easy to forget because Daenerys was married and gave birth in the first book, and then goes on to lead an army and be Queen of a city, but she is still a child herself. During A Dance with Dragons, she’s roughly 15 or 16 years old - just a teenager - and yet she’s putting tremendous pressure on herself to be a mother to thousands of former slaves, while at the same time trying to build herself the childhood she never had. It’s no coincidence that she begins thinking of the house with the red door more often:

She had been dreaming of a house with a red door when Missandei woke her.

Dany had never known a home. In Braavos, there had been a house with a red door, but that was all.

This was done in Braavos, while we were living in the house with the red door. Why did that make her feel so strange?

She would rather have drifted in the fragrant pool all day, eating iced fruit off silver trays and dreaming of a house with a red door

Not since those half-remembered days in Braavos when she lived in the house with the red door had she been as happy.

I’m most interested by this dream she has, though:

"Is it Daario? What's happened?" In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door.

This is the first time Daenerys has imagined a future with a red door; she has always wanted to return to the house in Braavos, but she’s never had dreams of what a future there could look like until this dream. And she pictures Daario as her husband living a simple life, even though she knows that is impossible:

I would give up my crown if he asked it of me, Dany thought. . . but he had not asked it, and never would. Daario might whisper words of love when the two of them were as one, but she knew it was the dragon queen he loved. If I gave up my crown, he would not want me.

This emphasizes that Dany will never be happy. She longs for and dreams of the house with a red door because it is an impossible reality - the one time in her life where she lived as a princess free of fear and responsibility. It’s the perfect childhood she almost had and then lost, and for the rest of her life she’s going to try and get it back. But the truth is it is lost forever; Daenerys is not the same young girl who wants peace and simplicity and nothing else, and the world will not allow her to be a carefree princess anymore. And if the red door is Dany’s ideal of lost childhood and innocence, Daario is the personification of her new dream of fire and blood and freedom from her moral misgivings. She dreams of both Daario and the red door together because they are the two things she wants most in the world; but they cannot possibly exist together. She can’t be a dragon queen who lives a simple life. At some point, she has to choose which future she wants, because she can have one but not the other.

I’ve decided to split this piece into two separate parts. As I said in my first post about A Dance with Dragons, I originally intended on three metas; the first two, about Dany’s political arc and relationships, I’ve already put out. But in writing about her personal journey, I realized it has two halves, and to do both justice I think they need separate posts. This piece is to cover the first half of her arc, up through the first nine chapters, and should highlight the huge choices she made in the first three chapters to give up on her dragons and Westeros to save her people, and then the next six chapters which test her resolve and make her regret those original choices. My next, and last, piece on Daenerys in A Dance with Dragons will solely focus on Daenerys X, when she decides to turn her back on Meereen and embrace her family and her dragons.

[ashleyfanfic]

I just needed to say I saw this idk if it’s a dvd extra or what on YouTube about the finale and it literally doesn’t make any sense. Like D&D and people are talking about how great the ending with Bran ruling the 6 kingdoms is because he can’t have children? Funny how that was an issue when it was Dany though!!? And the damn council being so different from what Westeros has had before because the people’s voices will be heard! Like what no? They shut down the idea of small folk mattering?!?

2/3  Also how in any way is it a Stark victory?!? They’re not together? The pack won’t survive because now they’re all lone wolves!!?!? And they didn’t help anyone they argued for Northern Independence despite a Stark sitting on the Throne!!? Why would the other kingdoms accept that?!! Also the North can sustain itself independently?’!? And why the duck is Arya yeeting off to “explore” when the last few seasons were all about her claiming her family “A girl is Arya Stark and she’s going home”?!? (CON 3/3  And Sansa betrayed Jon just to isolate Dany!!? She broke his trust and helped push Dany into “madness”? And if Bran is truly all knowing he saw what would happen and did nothing to stop it? They’re responsible too for what happened on King Landing and it’s just fine? No consequences? And Jon is exiled for doing what they tricked him into doing? Queen slayer/kinslayer/betrayer he will always be and have to live with. Alone on the cold. How is that a win for anyone? The wheel isn’t broken!?

There is a lot in these three asks to break down so let me start by saying that I think, for people like Sophie and maybe even Isaac, but I think less from him because he thought it was a joke, that it was a satisfying win for the Starks. I don’t know that Maisie would say it was a win for the Starks, maybe she would. But the thing is, I think a lot of them have to say they’re happy with the ending, otherwise it feels like years of their lives have been wasted. Think about your job and if you studied for ten years to learn how to do it only for them to come in and tell you that instead of chemical engineering, you’re going to be doing brain surgery every day. Like, that doesn’t make any sense and makes you feel like your life for the last ten years meant nothing if they could do that. So, this may be giving Kit a pass, but what is he supposed to say? “Oh, I hated the ending! It made no sense. Can you believe how they fucked up Daenerys?” Like, this is the show that got him an Emmy nomination and a GG nom. He’s not going to hate on it and to expect him to is ridiculous. 

But as for the characters and what happened...none of it made sense. So, let’s look at people other than Jon and Dany. You have Arya who fought for years to find her place in the world, finally decided that home is where she needed to go and found her place with her sister, then abandoned that to explore more. What? At the least, Arya would have argued harder for Jon to have been allowed to stay in Westeros. Second is Bran. So, I suppose they can now say it was foreshadowing that he said he would never be lord of anything. He was right. If you look at all the stuff he said and did and allowed it happen, it was all leading him to be king. Which means he allowed his sisters to fight with one another and Sansa to almost have Arya killed. He allowed an emotionally compromised Sam to tell Jon about his parentage. He knew that Euron was waiting at Dragonstone. He knew that Missandei would die. He knew that Theon was going to die. He knew that Sansa would betray Jon. He knew that Dany would lose it and destroy King’s Landing. He knew that Tyrion would betray Dany. He knew everything that was going to happen and allowed it to do so all so he could be king. To me, that makes Bran the actual villain of the the series as he allowed all those things to happen and warned no one. I would say that he even manipulated Sansa into some of it because he used the worst night of her life to persuade her that he had the gift of sight. 

Then there’s Sansa. She was going to have her sister killed. She was cold to a woman who brought her armies to the North to save her pathetic ass when she didn’t have to. She tried to emotionally blackmail her brother by saying that his loyalty was misplaced because he loved Jon. She indicated that said brother was weak because of it. She tried to press that the North should be independent for some fucking reason I’ve not fully grasped other than she just wanted it. While everyone else was up above fighting to save her life, she is in crypt still shit talking the queen that put everything on the line to save their lives. She’s incredibly threatened by the power Dany has and does everything she can to subvert her in front of her people and then behind her back. She betrayed her brother after knowing a secret for five minutes, not because it was what was best for the realm, but because she could use it to her advantage. And she never argued that Jon shouldn’t be sent to the Wall. Instead, she still argued for the North to be independent, and made her brother King so she could get what she wanted. Sansa who missed her family was perfectly fine with being alone in Winterfell with her crown. 

Then there’s Jon and Daenerys. I mean, Dany was being gaslighted by Bran and Sansa nearly the entire time she was in the North, if not before that by Bran. Dany had too much power but Jon was her true weakness, or at leas that’s what they wanted us to believe. Dany who lost a child and a husband, who fought for slaves and witnessed atrocities, who was sold to a warlord by her only relation (that she knew of), who suffered rape and pain at the hands of her husband, betrayal by nearly every person she knew. But sure, her weakness is Jon. So, we’re supposed to believe that of all the losses she suffered, the one that turns her hard and cold is the rejection of Jon Snow. And what happened to her? She’s betrayed again by someone she loves, but this time, it cost her her life.

And then there’s Jon Snow. I feel like what they did to Jon is equally as horrible, but everyone seems to bypass it. You have Jon Snow who befriended the Wildlings and learned to open his world view up to beyond what he’s always known. He’s murdered by his brothers for doing what he thought was right. He never wavered in that he thought it was right and that he should have done it. He had a difficult time that other people didn’t see it that way. He rode to take his home back for his sister. He managed to convince people that probably wouldn’t give him the time of day to fight for him. He became King in the North because he was a Stark, yes, but because he fought for his people. That was something he put pride in. So when he meets Dany, she’s someone who seems to have the same moral compass he has and puts the lives of the small folk above her own ambition. It’s one of the things that he respects about her. Remember, he thinks she has a good heart. Even Davos thinks highly of her. They fall in love and it’s really one of the first things Jon does that is for him. But that’s the point, isn’t it? Jon is the self-sacrificing hero. He’s not supposed to be allowed to have things like love of a good woman without having to suffer for it. So, they reveal his parentage for NO OTHER REASON than to keep Daenerys from the throne. That’s it. It’s never brought up after she dies. He’s still called Jon Snow. He’s not considered to be the King. He’s treated as the bastard he was always supposed to be. Only now, he’s worse than that. He betrayed the woman he loved by killing her. He not only became an Oathbreaker, he became a Queenslayer, and a Kinslayer. They made the honorable Jon Snow an Oathbreaker. Wrap your head around that, fam. And what’s his happy ending, as Kit sees it? Going to live North with the Wildlings. Because, yeah, that’s better than getting to be with the woman he loves for the rest of his life with babies. 

The truth is D&D ruined every character and blew holes and sank every ship on their way out. Everyone got done dirty, and yet we fixate on the ones we love he most. I mean, was Gendry only brought back so he could be the rail for Arya to ride? Yes, that still bothers me. I was a Gendrya fan before I was a Jonerys fan. Just...UGH! 

[multi-fandom-imagines8]

Burn Them All!

Request: Hi!! I don’t know if requests are closed! I hope you don’t mind but I have a request for Daenerys x reader, where they get in a fight and the reader storms off to blow some steam off and she gets kidnapped? Lots of Angst? Sorry if I am annoying you in anyway. I really love your writing & work. Requested by anon.

A/N: no need to apologize. You’re no bother at all 😊. And since you wanted angst, here you go 😈.

Warnings: slight GoT 8x04/05 spoilers, death, angst.

Word Count: 731.

“The skies will rain fire on them!” Daenerys told her counsel.

Everyone tried to advise her otherwise, but she wouldn’t listen.

“I need to speak to our queen, privately” you informed them and they left the room.

“Dany, I love you but what you want to do is a grave mistake”.

“I don’t need you too to tell me that”.

“You still need to hear it. There are innocents there. Children. You’ve come here to save people not to murder them”.

“And I will save millions. I’m here to rid the realm of tyrants and to do so a few must die for the many to live”.

“Now you’re talking like a mad queen. You’re the breaker of chains. You never wanted to harm innocents and now you’re saying that you want to kill thousands to get rid of one person”.

“I didn’t ask for your opinion. You’re here to please me not talk politics”.

“Is that what I am to you?”.

“That’s not what I meant”.

“Don’t do it, Dany! We’ll find another way. You’ve waited all your life to take the thrones. Surely, you can wait a bit longer. If you do this, the people will turn on you. They’ll fear you and-“.

“They should. I tried to gain their love, but I’ve only been met with hatred and fear. So, what other option do I have?”.

“They’ll see that you are your father’s daughter. The mad queen, who just wants to burn them all”.

“How dare you compare me to my father?”.

“I am not. I am telling you what will people say if you burn the city”.

“I trusted you, Y/n. I thought you were on my side. You’re just like the rest of them”.

“I can’t believe you’re saying that. You should rest. You’re clearly tired. We’ll talk once you feel better”.

“Don’t treat me like this. Like I am a sick person” she yelled as you left the room.

You hated fighting with Daenerys, but sometimes she made rushed decisions that cost her a lot. Usually, she’d listen to her advisors, but after losing Viserion, Rhaegal, Jorah and Missandei she was determined to take back the throne as soon as possible with all means necessary. The only reason she didn’t attack yet is because you told her that they needed at least a day to rest. She listened to you because you are the person she loves the most in this world and the last one she has.

You went to the coast to get some fresh air, only to find the iron fleet there, with Euron as their commander. Before you could make a sound, they took you and sailed to King’s Landing.

When Daenerys heard the news, she immediately sailed to King’s Landing with her army. On top of the front gate stood Cersei, Euron, the mountain, you and a few other soldiers who were ready to shoot arrows at Drogon.

Cersei demanded that Daenerys surrenders or you’ll die.

As much as she loved the throne, she loved you more. She was ready to give up on it just for you.

You realized that she was right and wanted to show her that you support her plan, even though it was a bit late.

“Don’t do it, Dany! I love you and I always will. I’m sorry” you spoke your last words as she tried to hold her tears back. Then Cersei slit your throat in front of her. With your dying breath you managed to show her that you approved of her plan “D-dr- Dracarys!”.

Dany knew what she had to do.

No matter the cost, she’ll never be weak again. She burnt the city to the ground, where the love of her life was murdered. And the murderer was chained underneath the city unable to die, until the queen allows her to.

But the queen never allowed herself to be happy, remembering the last time she spoke to you, she didn’t say she loved you and hurt your feelings. Although, she knew it was alright for you and you would’ve forgiven her, she couldn’t forgive herself for fighting with you the last time she was truly with you. She blamed herself for your death, believing that if she didn’t fight and yell at you, you wouldn’t have gone to get some fresh air and get kidnapped.

[nightqueendany]

Alright, I Call Fucking Bullshit

This is ridiculous. I actually don’t believe any of these leaks in any capacity at all anymore, including Friki’s. All of this is just so outside the realm of things likely to happen and things that have been building for the last few years, it’s utter nonsense.

1) Jon kills Dany - No. Just...no. Alan Taylor said when S7 aired, that GRRM had told him back when they were filming Season 1 that the series was all about Jon and Daenerys and them coming together.

“We were in Malta shooting episode ten of the first season, and the show wasn't a big deal yet and we weren't being very secretive because nobody cared yet, and [Martin] just sort of mentioned in passing, "Oh well it's all about Dany and Jon Snow" and at the time I thought, "Really? I thought it was about Sean Bean and Robb Stark?" But he knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we're starting to see that come to fruition. We know that it's circling tighter and tighter on Dany and Jon and their partnership is starting to form, you know, "fire and ice." 

Antis can say, well, that doesn’t mean they’ll get together. It could mean Jon was always meant to kill Dany.

But this actually makes no sense at all. Why? Because if that were true, there would be no reason for us to be viewing this portion of Westerosi history right now. There would be no point because it’s already happened.

We’ve already had “mad” Targaryens, we’ve already had Targaryens with rival claims to the throne fighting for said throne, we’ve already had the “Dance of Dragons” - if we were just going to get all of this again, what would be the point? What makes this particular “Dance” or “Mad Targaryen” have any kind of urgency in the story? In one of my screenwriting classes, we talked about the “Why” of a story. Why are we entering this character’s world right now? What’s the point of the story starting on this particular day? There has to be something that sets it apart. Otherwise you could start the story in a year, or two weeks ago, or whatever. There has to be a reason for the Now factor. Why now??

And if the reasons for Jon killing Dany are just going to be the same reasons as previous Targaryen wars and problems, then there would be no answer to the “Why Now?” question.

There have even been dragons in Westeros before...many more than the mere two we have now, two who are severely injured, I might add. So if dragons were such a threat to the realm, why didn’t the story start back a hundred and fifty years ago when the last dragons had gone extinct?

If the point of the story is - the one with the dragons is the “ultimate threat” - then there is no reason to have the story focus on 300AC with Dany and her dragons. It could have been set further back in time.

Plus, how can dragons be the “ultimate threat” when the realm has already had dragons? As Archmaester Ebrose said last season, people panicked and asked “How will we survive??” when Aegon came and conquered with his dragons. But they did. They did survive. So dragons and a Targraryen - even a potentially Mad Targaryen (with incredibly dwindled armies) - is no huge threat to the realm.

2) Sansa ends up ruling. Again, fucking no. This ties into the above as well. Jon kills Dany and Sansa rules. There’s just so much that’s inconsistent and nonsensical about this, it’s incredible.

As I have stated many many many times, Sansa is a product of her feudal society and she has greatly benefited from her position in it. And, as both the books and the show (yes, even the show!) have shown us, this system does not work.

George and D&D have not spent painstaking hours showing the audience the pitfalls of this feudalistic society only to have someone who has no reason to make change to it, end up on the throne. As much as D&D may love Sophie and manipulate the story to give her more screen time, they will not manipulate her story this much.

As recently as 8x02, we get Sansa still concerned with Northern Independence (8x03 really, because she calls Tyrion’s loyalties to Dany a “problem”). And so why would Sansa suddenly 1) be able to take the Iron Throne 2) want to join the North to the IT when she’s been all about it’s independence and 3) Care enough to make changes to her society that we’ve been shown clearly needs changes made in it?

It makes no sense to have this all fall to Sansa.

That, and, Dany has already been shown to be the only character who gives a shit about changing the status quo. Why would the story have Jon kill Dany - the only progressive character in the series - in order for an incredibly traditional-minded and conservative character to have ultimate power?

This goes back to that question of “Why now?” If the series were to end with just another character on the Throne as “Queen”, then why the fuck have we been watching the series for this long? What’s the point?

They could have just not included the side-story of the AOTD and had Sansa marry Joffrey and have him die and have her take his place as Queen if this were the ending we were always supposed to have. Done. Simple. One season. No need for anything else.

There cannot be a King or Queen at the end of this story. No one can sit the Iron Throne. It’s all “For the Throne” yes, which means no one should have it at the end.

3) So how does it end? It has to end in the most understated way possible. It will be the opposite of Aegon II and Rhaenrya Targaryen. Rather than Jon and Dany fighting over the throne or trying to kill each other for power or because of power, we will have them both jointly reject the throne and refuse power.

This is how it has to end. Some fucked up shit’s going to happen. Lots of people are going to die. There will be lots of angst. But ultimately, it will be really simple. They’ll both look at each other and decide, this is the cause of everyone’s problems. This is not worth it. They’ll destroy the Iron Throne and likely set up a new form of government where each region has a representative and the representative council makes all the decisions for the realm, rather than a King or a Queen.

Because that’s been the point of the entire series. No one person should have all this power. People shouldn’t be fighting over this. They need to work together. They need to help each other.

This is the third twist. The third, oh shit moment. Jon and Dany walking away from their birthright as no other characters in the history of the story have done before, and no one else taking their place also. No one gets to sit the Iron Throne. Cersei will be the last one to take that place.

Tyrion’s trial likely won’t even be a trial. As people have asked in the Reddit pages, why would the Starks prosecute someone Daenerys had arrested (when she’s allegedly gone mad)? Wouldn’t the Starks just...free Tyrion because of what Dany became?

You really can’t have both. You can’t have Mad Dany and also Traitor Tyrion. Because then, Dany arresting Tyrion and the Starks later continuing through with Tyrion’s execution, makes no sense.

Also, HBO took painstaking steps in order to block Friki’s spoilers of 8x01. Yet, they have done nothing to block his previous videos about Tyrion’s trial. Why would they do this? Why would they allow Friki to ruin the most “shocking” thing about this season, but attempt to block him from ruining the very first episode which was easily ruined a few weeks later anyway when the premiere happened?

It. Makes. No. Sense.

And the fact that so many people are coming out of the wood-works to try to convince people of this ending, Dany going mad, Jon killing her, Sansa becoming queen, Tyrion still getting executed, etc....It’s highly suspicious, especially for a season that is supposed to be LOCKED DOWN. This may sound “delulu” but it really is starting to sound like HBO is actually planting information out there. It’s entirely within the realm of possibility and if the ending really is as simple as “Jon and Dany turn their backs on their birthright and destroy the throne” then maybe HBO is doing this so people, when they see the final episode, go “Oh thank god it’s not what was in those leaks!”

Maybe this is me circling back around to the “denial” phase of things, but this just doesn’t make any sense.

And D&D have had their fuck-ups, yes, but their plot points aren’t completely without reason. Arya killing the Night King, they made it make sense and I still maintain something like this could happen in the books because of Arya’s story connection with “death” and her extensive training (for those still arguing it should have been Jon, book!Jon hasn’t even killed a White Walker or come across any of the AOTD; the only wights he’s seen were the ones in the very first book).

But whatever. We don’t know what’s going to happen until it happens.

These are just my thoughts on this right now, in this moment. They could change by tomorrow. 

But fuck, all this info - the Unsullied “going crazy”...? Just, what the fuck? No sense. None at all.

[dylanobrienisbatman]

Honestly, Sansa’s manipulation of Dany in their one on one is actually one of my favourite Sansa moments, because thats a moment where we see that she is actually that much smarter than everyone else. 

Dany is a queen, a conquerer, a leader, but Sansa is brilliant. She understands people, and she has seen enough people like Dany to understand what to say and how to say it. At Jaime’s little trial, Sansa is almost on Dany’s side, but when presented with the information from Brienne, Sansa takes in all the information and makes a choice that Dany disagrees with, where Dany sees only that Jaime killed her father. In that, they are the same at the start. Jaime was a large part of why Sansa’s father is dead, and Jaime killed the Mad King, so there is no reason why they wouldn’t both want him gone, but Sansa understands that what Jaime did for Brienne matters, and that Jaime is a strong fighter. She doesn’t have to trust him, she doesn’t have to believe he is a good man, but she trusts Brienne and knows Brienne would never allow anyone to hurt her, so she decides allow Jaime to help them fight. When Dany approaches her after, Sansa sees that Dany doesn’t see her as much more than a young woman. She tries to relate to Sansa, with her comment about leading people who aren’t open to a woman’s rule, and that is I think where Sansa realises that not only does she understand Dany, Dany does not understand her, or the North. Sansa has the love and respect of the Northmen, almost moreso than Jon. She has the respect and loyalty of the Vale. She has the respect of Tyrion. The North also has Lyanna Mormont, who was a living breathing example of the Norths willingness to follow strength, no matter where it comes from. Dany sees what she wants to see, and Sansa realises that, and she uses it against her. A moment of honest gratitude, “i should have thanked you the moment you arrived”, a moment of allowing Dany to say just a little too much “i came North for your brother”, and a careful understanding of how exactly she needs play the moment to get where she needs to get to say what she needs to say. 

You see it when she finally gets Dany into that spot. They’re touching hands, they’re leaning into each other, the moment feels full of potential and promise, and Sansa knows that is exactly when she needs to strike to really have her intended message hit home. If she had tried to tell Dany that the North would not bend in a war council meeting, or when Dany had arrived, or even in a situation where Dany truly had the upper hand, not only would it have put Sansa in some level of danger, but Dany would not have really grasped the sincerity and conviction of what Sansa was saying. Sansa needed to have her in a more vulnerable and intimate setting, because otherwise Dany would be able to pass it off as posturing or something else, but in that moment, just the two of them, there is nothing else it could be but direct and honest. Sansa understands diplomacy, she understands power structures and she knows how Queens and those who believe themselves to have a rightful claim to power behave. She knows that a claim of independence like the one she is making would be seen as treason, or at least viewed as a significant threat to power. She couldn’t make it in public. She could never say those things with other people around, because Dany would never allow it to stand. But in private, when Dany just admitted that she loved Jon, when Dany admitted that she doesn’t understand the North, when Dany admitted that she has no real plan beyond getting the throne and becoming Queen, that is Sansa’s moment to make it clear. 

I think that moment really shows that Sansa is not just ahead of the group in terms of her intelligence, she is 10 steps ahead of everyone else, and she knows it. She has interpersonal intelligence, she has political knowledge, she has strategic abilities, she has leadership skill, she has respect and love from her people, and she is smarter than everyone else around her. That moment, in my opinion, was one of Sansa’s best, because it was one of the first times we saw her use her mind and create exactly the environment she wanted, without anyone else. She didn’t need Bran to clarify anything, she didn’t need the Lords to be on her side, or Arya to be there to protect her. She only needed herself, her mind, and her ability. 

Sansa Stark, all on her own, stared down the throat of a dragon, and demanded independence for her people. Whether or not she got it in that moment, in that moment she cemented herself as a substantial threat to Daenerys, and as someone who has always known Sansa’s potential to be the strongest and most powerful person on the show, it was a thrill to watch. 

[killthebxy]

a heap of headcanons, pt. 2:

the defenses of Winterfell + strategy for the battle

          let it be known that i am writing these for a simple reason: i am greatly unsatisfied with how the battle was planned for episode 3. my portrayal is always book-based, even in show-only plots and threads, and book!Jon is a brilliant strategist --- he and Robb learned it all from Ned and, while it is true that Jon lacks real war experience when compared to Robb, it is no less true that this boy: 1) helped defend Castle Black from Styr’s attack, even if it meant risking to be the one to kill Ygritte, 2) was charged with the defense of the Wall, at age 16, by Donal Noye who believed him fully capable of such, 3) was named acting commander by maester Aemon, the sagest of men, and 4) held the Wall against Mance Rayder, 100,000 wildlings, mammoths, giants --- not because he had the numbers, but because of his exceptionally intelligent planning of their defenses. add to this the fact that Jaime Lannister, lord commander of the Kingsguard, a man able to battle Ned Stark eye on eye, is at Winterfell, and definitely there is no way i will ever accept how badly this battle was planned. i am no battle specialist myself, but i will try my best to make sense out of this. and also: i headcanon that these strategies were placed together by Jon and Jaime, with Tyrion’s supervision together with Jorah, Grey Worm, Dany’s bloodriders, Sandor, Beric, Tormund, Davos, Theon, and Brienne (i.e., characters with training and experience in battle strategy) --- and then shared, discussed, debated, and fixed as necessary together with everyone else in the castle. no one was left out, no matter their role.

first and foremost, while i do not personally agree with the suicidal plan of “let’s lure in the Night King and use Bran as bait”, i will accept it because otherwise i would have to change literally the entire episode and everyone’s own muses’ actions and this is obviously not my intention. the strategy is what will differ.

the Unsullied are the main line of defense and their purpose is to shield the castle --- if a single wight enters the castle, everything is lost. the Dothraki riders, on the other hand, are purely offensive and they need a vast field to perform their attacks. HOWEVER. whilst they are still the van, they are not pitched head-on towards the wights nor are they tossed carelessly like meat to be slaughtered. they will be placed on the sides of the field, so to speak, so that they can charge into the wights as the wights come forth. so, let’s envision it like this: there is Winterfell, right in front Winterfell the Unsullied legions are placed as a shield. the wights will charge right into this shield, as they are vicious and rely on ruthlessness only, therefore they attack in a block. this will allow, therefore, for the Dothraki to charge into them from the sides, supporting the shield this way and minimizing their deaths as much as possible.

regarding the dragons: this will build on my plotting with @zcldrizes and @perzyr. i write Jon as having no Targaryen blood (except for very few threads plotted otherwise), and he is able to ride Rhaegal only because of a bond they have built ever since Jon arrived at Dragonstone --- Rhaegal chooses Jon for his rider not because of blood, but because of the person Jon is. still, Jon is a much less experienced rider than Dany, and his initial plan is not to go fight in the air. for the initial part of the battle, Jon stays on the ground and supervises and commands from atop Winterfell’s walls, together with Arya and Sansa and Davos. Ghost is with him, because Jon knows his direwolf won’t make a difference in this sort of battlefield --- there is 99% chance Ghost will be butchered, and he will be much more useful within the castle walls, to help shielding from the inside out.

regarding the dragons, pt.2: again based on my plotting with Artie and Daisy --- while Jon stays on the ground for now, Dany flies off with Drogon and Rhaegal. considering everything i state above, too --- they begin burning the waves of wights, again as a way to keep casualties to a minimum, which allows the Dothraki riders to only charge in when it is safe --- and then retreat again, rinse and repeat. eventually, Dany spots the Others by the edge of the wolfswood and steers Drogon that way to go fight. Rhaegal stays behind and continues supporting the forces on the ground because 1) he refuses to fight Viserion (this is @perzyr‘s beautiful headcanon, with a lot more detail and depth to it than i am exploring here), and 2) he refuses to abandon Jon. after some moments of airborne fighting, Dany realizes she will be unable to bring down Viserion on her own and this is when she returns for Jon --- in this moment, Jon and Rhaegal together decide to go fight as well, and this is when everything else happens like we see unfolding in the episode.

on the other hand, this when the odds start becoming very tilted against everyone fighting on the ground. with the dragons gone off to fight Viserion, the armies do not have that protection anymore --- and they are greatly outnumbered by the wights. this is when the retreat begins.

unlike what we see in the episode, the walls are very well prepared to deal with wights trying to climb up --- this is literally what Jon had to face when defending the Wall, and he’ll put all this knowledge and experience to good use. atop the walls, there are boulders and scorpions and barrels filled with stone and ice and more barrels of oil and torches. everyone there is armed with longbow or crossbow, and fire arrows.

in the meanwhile, however, something else happens that definitely ruins all these preparations --- the moment when the Night King, after being knocked off Viserion and now face to face with Jon, rises all the dead soldiers. because this means there is now wights within the castle walls, no matter what.

regarding the crypts: i had a thought of headcanoning that, rather than the crypts, Jon would have everyone gathered at the great keep --- because he is not stupid, and he knows the crypts are an accident waiting to happen, as soon as the Night King brings up his arms. however i ultimately chose not to because 1) again, it is not my intention to change half the episode for everyone, and 2) in theory, the crypts ARE the safest place. not when the dead rise, yes, but at this point the entire castle is overrun and it will make little difference where you are. no place is safe anymore --- when the crypts fall, every other place is already gone before.

one final note regarding Ghost: as i said, he is NOT sent off to fight, as in my personal opinion this makes little sense. he stands by Jon for as long as Jon is on the ground. once Jon leaves with Rhaegal, he instructs Ghost to retreat to the crypts and guard everyone there --- exactly because he knows there is a real risk matters will go downhill. for this battle, Jon had a layer of armor made for Ghost, that covers his torso. around his neck, he wears a collar with spikes made of dragonglass, to both help him defend and attack against the wights. if anyone who writes the Staklings wants to join me in on this, i am more than glad to headcanon that Shaggy, Summer, and Nymeria (and Frost, ft. @clevrest) are also wearing similar armor.

          tl;dr: if you look at the outcome, it is pretty much the same as what happens in the episode. a similar number of persons died. HOWEVER. they died because the odds were severely against them and because it was impossible to have done much more --- not because anyone in Winterfell was too stupid to properly plan this battle.

[tidustargaryen]

Honestly, do you think Jon was right to kill Thorne, Olly? Jon's fans will answer yes, and that's perfectly normal. They kill your favorite character, for reasons that make no sense to you being given that Jon did the right thing. Yes he was right to save the Freefolk, because we know what's behind the wall, we know what happens when the Night King kills Freefolk'people.

The question is: Do Thorne and Co. know it? Most do not believe in the WW, and it's totally normal, if I come to tell you that I saw the Night King in my garden will you believe me? Others know that there are of course strange things beyond the wall, others know that the WW exist but are not totally convinced of the threat until they see it in front of them, like Dany, like the Starks during the battle of Winterfell.

For them, Jon let pass savages, who will kill, plundering and rape the people of Westeros. The women of their families, the children, like Olly who saw his family being killed and then devouring.

You think Olly was wrong to kill Jon? After what he saw? After he witnessed the horrors made by Freefolk without knowing the threat or believing the existence of the WW?

For these traitors, because yes, they still betrayed their commanders, but they had circumstances to do so, but for them, Jon allowed the main enemy, against whom Night's Watch was created, according to what they believe, to pass the wall, to enter the lands of the kingdom to perpetuate the murders, the rapes and the pillages and they are right to believe it, being given that when Tormund and Ygritte have to pass the wall, they have destroyed at least one village.

It's the same for Jaime, he's killing the Mad King, he betrayed his oath, his king, but for good reason, because the Mad King was going to explode the city. He is still an Oathbreaker, but he did what was right for him, for us too. But not for others, for others, he was a Kingslayer, a man without honor.

Jon did what was right for him, for us, just as Thorne and Co. did what was right in their eyes.

It's the same for Mirri Maz Duur, I hate what she's actually doing because she did it against my favorite character, because of her, Dany is cursed, she lost her husband and child.

But, I know that she has also done what is right for her, her people have always suffered Dothraki violence, murder, looting, rape, slavery. She just wanted to save her people, they are very faithful, and the stallion who mount the world was a great danger to them.

I'm still pro Dany but I still know that Mirri had her reasons, reasons that make no sense for Dany, but Mirri did what was right for her people.

Dany, in burning her, did what is right for her betrayal, her husband and child'deaths.

As GRRM said, not everything is white or black, and what seems right to you may not be in someone else's eyes.

And it's the same for Jon and Dany.

That's why i write this. You say: The fans of Dany / Jonerys show their true colors, they do not like Jon but I return you this sentence ...

Jon / Jonerys fans, do you really like Dany? Or is she just a beautiful woman that Jon needs to empty his balls?

It's the same problem, from your point of view you're right, you think it's just what Jon did, I think it's not.

Jon did to Dany what Thorne and Co. did to him. He hated what his brothers did to him... but he did that to a woman he pretend to love ? (Yeah fuck you D&D or George if he make the same ending for Jonerys)

As I explained: Thorne and co did what they did because from their point of view, Jon had betrayed Night's Watch, they wanted to punish him and then I guess they would have done what was necessary to the Freefolk goes back beyond the wall.

Jon betrayed Dany because he wanted to save his family, yes he does not approve what she did to KL, but that's when Tyrion raised the threat against his sisters (especially Sansa because she revealing Jon's kinship, which led to Varys' assassination attempt on Dany) that Jon reconsidered the murder.

Was it fair? It's up to everyone. I'm sure for Dany, including her followers, it's Jon the traitor, Jon is wrong. For those who are on the side of Jon, he made the right choice.

Should he kill her? I think not. Do you seriously think he was not able to stop her without killing her? He could imprison her, he made the worst choice. It was not only his queen, it was his aunt, it was his lover. You tell me seriously that he had only one choice, and that was to kill her?

Jon made the wrong choice, the worst choice. And that's why people who love Dany, even if Dany is not necessarily their favorite character, can love Dany and favor Jon or another character, defending her. The people that Dany kill, those are the same people who died all along the show. Extras, people without names. I have never seen anyone complain about lost innocent lives. Do you think that the soldiers who died during the Battle of Blackwater with the Wildfire, Tyrion's plan, deserve it? 

They were soldiers, certainly, but some, or a lot, have no choice, they have to fight for their Lords, otherwise they are executed. They were innocent just like the people of KL. But I do not see anyone insulting Tyrion.

And this is one of many examples, it is always Dany who is wrongly accusing for her choices. You honestly think that if Tywin, Stannis, Cersei and even Jon, if they had dragons, you think they would not use them? Jon would certainly use them to take over Winterfell. And no one would be sorry. Everyone would have been happy. Because it was revenge. It was good to kill the Boltons, the Lannisters, the Freys.

But not the slavers? You think that's what slavers do is good ? They crucified 163 children .... children .... and people cry because these same slavers found themselves in turn crucify?

When Arya makes cooking recipes with humans, is that right?

That a father, despite all the horrors he has been able to do, deserves to eat his own children?

Yes ? So slavers also deserve to be crucified as they crucified the children.

But Dany was always blaming for the justice she has done. Why ? Because she is a woman? Because she's not a Stark? And that she is the daughter of the Mad King? Because a woman should not have so much power?

Daenerys did not deserve to die, otherwise, almost all the characters in the show deserve it.

She did not deserve to die from the hands of the man she loves, during a kiss, after promising her help to the North, she made the right choice, but she did not have to help .... If she had refused to help Jon, she would have been criticizing for being selfish, thinking only of the Iron Throne. But she was also criticizing for helping, no matter what she did, during that season she was losing.

I hate this season because the authors did everything to make people hate Daenerys, they wanted to force the viewer's mind by completely forgetting the logic of their story. The only goal, to make believe that Daenerys is crazy and evil.

I am proud to say that, for my part, they have not succeeded. They will not have succeeded in forcing my mind to think that Daenerys deserved this fate, after the crappy life she had, after the flight to the free cities, the famine, the violence of her brother, the rape, the slavery, the scorn of men, and all that she had to endure, she did not deserve to be killed by the man she loves.

Yes I am angry against Jon, and it is a human reaction, to kill this woman for a kiss while he had no choice! He did what Thorne and Co. did to him, he hated being betrayed for passing the Freefolk south of the wall, he hated the betrayal of his brothers, and he did the same thing to Dany?

But Dany deserves it for what she did?

I don’t care, I don’t care about the people of KL, the same people who applauded the death of Ned Stark, who licked the feet of the Lannisters, who spit on Yara, applauded Euron, who have, for all the trouble she did, spit and insult Cersei during the march of shame, she made bad choices to protect her family, but I think no one deserves to be humiliated in public as she was. Nobody.

Yes, of course, from my personal point of view, I will love that Dany does not kill innocent people, but she did not suffer enough? The rejection of people when she comes to help the North, she lost a dragon to help Jon, if she had let him die beyond the wall, you'd be happy? No. If she had let him die during the battle at Winterfell would you be happy? No. Dany save Jon, and what did he do? He rejected her, because she’s his aunt ? The incest in medieval times shocked anyone ... except between parents / children, brothers / sisters (Except in Targaryens family), and among the Targaryens and even among the Starks it is common, the grandparents of Jon were cousins ​​and on the side of the Targs, brothers and sisters .... Moreover, he slept with Dany while he knew that she was descended from a family where they were almost all incestuous, her parents are brother and sister. Sorry but I do not sleep with a guy whose whole family tree is incestuous, it repels me, because incest is wrong and disgusting in modern time, but not in medieval era. Jon did not mind, because in medieval times, for people it was normal. As normal as it is abnormal for us now. But once he knows that Dany is his aunt he is disgusted? It does not make sense.

But hey, let's say it's normal to be disgusted ...

This does not prevent him from going to see Dany, to comfort her, to defend her against the ingratitude of the Starks and the North, to console her, to tell her that he is sorry for the death of Missandei, Rhaegal, the dragon he was riding ... To be simply a support for her, not just a loyal subject who behaves like a robot ... He could have stopped her before she does that when she says "Let it be fear" ... It's still a big clue to what she's going to do: reign in fear. So do bad things, and he does not do anything to stop her? While later he does not hesitate to kill her?

It's not just the murder of Dany, it's all this series of events, all this bashing on her character that is disgusting, and while we were waiting for comfort in the scenes of Jonerys, we have that ? Jon rejected her? Jon killed her? 

We have the right to be angry, angry towards D & D, towards Varys, Tyrion, Sansa, the North the Starks and Jon.

But you do not understand that. Jon live north of the wall, time will heal his wounds, he may find another woman, will have children, since the bastard does not count with Freefolk, he will finally be happy, with friends, Ghost. Yes he is not King, so what? You think that's what he wanted? ShowJon? No, he would have been unhappy.

I loved Jonerys, I love Jon's story, he's a hero, I'm proud of what he did for Freefolk, because fuck xenophobia, but I can not forgive what he did to Dany. She is my favorite character, far ahead of everyone else, and I hate all those who have hurt her during this season, almost everyone except the dead on her side, even Drogon did not avenge her mother, even the Dothraki, while it is their customs to avenge their Khal / Khaleesi, even the Unsullied don’t. They jailed Jon, why Jon did not imprison Dany, why he did not give her a more dignified death than kill her during a kiss, by surprise, seriously, Jon show more respect during the execution of Thorne and Co., allowing them the last words, he gives them more honor than he gives to Dany ...

It is unfair !

But frankly, what if it was Jon? Frankly, if Jon had lost his family, Ghost, if his lover had rejected him, if he had lost everything, if he was totally alone, if this whole season was not a bashing of Dany but Jon and that Dany ended up killing him coldly during a kiss, would not you hate Dany?

[gawaine]

I will express this coherently at some point but to summarise;

this became longer than anticipated.

some common criticisms of the finale and why I politely think that, for the most part, they’re (respectfully) fucking wrong

what was the point of the whole show if not the Targaryen storyline?! The ascension of House Stark. The entire series is about the ascension of House Stark. How Bran the Broken’s forefather rejected the throne and died a traitor, like his fathers before him; how Arya escaped King’s Landing and returned as (however which way, or accidentally) a lauded hero, there to save others; how Lady Stark, who was mercilessly abused at the hands of Joffrey and held accountable for the sins of the Lannisters butchering her family, took forward their cause and everything that they died for. Love. Respect. Honour. The North. I’m fucking fine ok no I’m not my baby I’m emOTIONAL

there were good parts but it was a shitty ending! so anti-climactic! It’s the final episode. The penultimate episode of GoT is always the big one; the dramatic fight, the huge scenes. The ending is always quiet. It’s always about the aftermath. The but what is the result of that? That’s the GoT structure. GoT is about politics, human nature, cunning. If you expected anything more than that in the final episode of the final season, you haven’t been paying attention.

Drogon didn’t kill Jon! The argument that Drogon has always showed slight (albeit significantly less than with Dany) deference to Jon; we see he’s wary of him and I guess we all knew that when it came down to it, it would take something fantastic for Drogon to allow Jon to ride him, but we see it as Jon enters the castle and in multiple scenes throughout the season. Him not reacting to Jon isn’t well explained, but there’s an argument there that Drogon senses Jon is at least part Targ. And fire cannot kill a dragon.

what was even the point of Jon being a Targaryen if he’s not king? ... All of it. He chooses to be a Stark first. He denounces fire and blood. He denounces his own free will and choices, even if it means saving whatever remainder is left of House Stark. This is about the rise of House Stark. It always has been. Their suffering, their loss, their triumphs. I can’t remember when, but i remember posting once that as much as fans argue otherwise, we travel with the narrative. Our two narrative threads, that we’re led to follow as an audience, are the Starks and Daenerys. Jon symbolises that; more than that, he IS that. He is us in that world. The world isn’t that simple. Also, he goes down in history as the man who saves Westeros.

they played us with Dany. Right. No, they didn’t... And yes, they did. Her storyline has been there from the start. The schism between dual supporters of House Stark and House Targaryen only started around season 7, which was when Daenerys conveniently started exhibiting behaviour that indicated she wasn’t as stable as we’d been led to believe/before. I’m not anti-Daenerys, but there have been breadcrumbs this whole time. I’d go so far as to say that the writers probably overestimated the intelligence of their audience; that’s not me being abrasive, that’s fact. The nuggets people looked for in earlier seasons is based on source material. The nuances people enjoyed became ignored for the ‘bigger picture’ - but everyone assumed what that was based on the monolith that the show became (past tense! urgh), not on what the show has always been/was meant to continue to be this season. Was it poorly written? Yes. Absolutely. I felt betrayed by the voice over in the penultimate episode. It was lazy and shoddy. I may not like what Daenerys has become, but she deserved so much more. Also, there was a lack of consistency. This episode highlights her belief in her own benevolence and yes, it’s meant to be ironic and show us how stupid we’ve been - with Jon - and I would’ve respected it more if she’d been written to stand by her fury. But she’s also not her brother. She will purposefully not act that way whilst ignorant to her own faults. She’s delusional. I could write a whole essay on Daenerys’ mental health (did the show write it as misogyny? Yeah, I see it. Is that the basis of her character’s madness as a narrative? Um, no)

what the fuck was Tyrion’s speech? The writers assumed the audience was smarter (in their sense of the word) than they are. So they spelled it out for us, just in case. Clunky, lazy, etc? Yes. Fitting for that scene? Also yes.

lol the episode was so bad, the only good part was Jon petting Ghost It now makes sense why they didn’t have the budget for two Ghost scenes (you know about 70% of their CGI budget went on Drogon in this episode). There’s a reason for that; the season structure of GoT so far [see above], and the reminder of the true theme here - House Stark’s rise [see above]. Jon is at home in the North. At the Wall, he’s not a Targaryen, or a Stark; he’s Jon. It’s the only place where he can be just that. And that includes being half a Stark (ironically, the only consistent thing in his life), but not only that. Does it make relatively little narrative sense to have the Unsullied be invited to stay in Westeros, just to demand Jon is made a prisoner and then leave? True - but the point is, the door is kept open. That’s life. People move, people change, cultures adapt. The Unsullied are now a part of Westeros, no matter how far they go. Plus, Jon in the Wall... Knowing Bran knows the future... urgh, I see it. Poor writing, badly executed (props to the actors and production teams for doing a fantastic job with the material given), but I see the point being made.

the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives - what bullshit! Incorrect. Everyone assumes that’s meant literally; that’s only in times of war, that it’s literal (which is why it’s all we’ve seen so far; it’s eight seasons of war  against the Starks, or involving them). They are together. They are united. They are safe and they are happy. Personally, it’s all I’ve ever wanted from this series. I see others’ disappointment, I do. But Sansa is home. People saying she’s lonely and suffering the burden of ruling... No. Yes, she’s alone. But she’s not lonely. She’s home. With people who love her. With not just her father’s and forefathers’ legacy behind her, including in rebellion against the Targaryen’s for independence of the North/the ‘greater good’; but her mother’s and Robb’s, too. She’s always been somebody else’s. “x’s wife”. “x’s assistant”. “x’s chess piece”. Like Jon beyond the wall, she is just Sansa Stark in Winterfell. Like Jon, it was a legacy she craved - a home - and now she has it, without being the forced bystander she was as a child. Same with Arya. She always wanted to be free to do as she pleased, without losing her identity. House Stark is no longer against the world, fighting to survive. It has. They are a family. Your family aren’t dictated by who’s closest to you. They have survived. They’re not alone. This is the beginning of the series whilst it isn’t, because what’s changed? They know their loyalties lie. The pack must always survive. They have. They know that, after this, no matter what, they always will.

I could go on for hours but you get the point.

It wasn’t the greatest season. My favourite will always be seven. But that finale was one of the best episodes this season, because, as much as it may not feel like enough, it tied the strings relevant to the story it set out to be; which was ALWAYS about House Stark. 

The promo? Of their statues in Winterfell’s crypts? They bury their old selves. They become someone unrecognisable, born from who they were at the beginning.

But the point remains, they are, and always will be Starks first. Daenerys will always be a Targaryen first. You cannot escape your family. You can try and do better, but you can never escape who you are and how who that is affects you.

I fucking love it. Everything else can - bad pun intended - burn. The story this was meant to be got its ending. The stories in between may not have and that’s dissatisfying; but the ending to the original story was there.

[ragnarssons]

How do you think Daenerys is going to react when she finds out Jon is a Targaryen and technically has a better claim ? Sorry you defend her well so I always come to you when I'm worried lol so many people on tumblr are saying she won't react well

I’m glad to know that I’m known as a fierce Dany defender because… that’s what I thrive to be, lol. So- about the whole Targ thing, the incest and all… really what I can say is I don’t know? Because really, I hate how “intertwined” Jon and Daenerys have become despite the obvious incest thing. Hence why I don’t ship them: with their chemistry and the whole lore behind them, were they not related, I’d ship that shit like 100%. I think it’ll be so difficult for them to “deal” with all this that I try not to think about it too much because I think they’re going to HURT a lot. I’m still able to recognize that the scripts, the scenes themselves and the actors, all state that Daenerys and Jon are in love at that point. Like, it’s not a lie, we know Jon isn’t the type of dude who sleeps with a woman for fun - or to fake an alliance *rolls eyes*. It “yiiiikes” me but it’s canon. It’s a very delicate situation.I think we have to look at the characters to kinda guess what is gonna happen. Jon has had a story about accepting who he was, a bastard, and someone who had a greater purpose than “the wars south”. Jon’s post-s5 journey has been about him claiming his place among his own family - the Starks, and still, his “greater cause” that no one else believes in. Hence why him allowing himself to fall in love with Daenerys is such a strong thing, because… well, he was supposed to have other priorities: he even states that in canon, to Davos. Davos says “I’ve seen you staring at her good heart” and Jon’s only response is “we don’t have time for that”. I really, 100% don’t see Jon learning that he’s Rhaegar Targaryen’s son and be like “well I guess the Throne is mine, then!” I don’t see him throwing that info at Daenerys to be like “I’m a better Targaryen than you!”. I think it’ll mostly affect Jon because he loves Daenerys, and he just found out that 1) they’re related (Kit himself said that Jon isn’t the type of man who would KNOWINGLY sleep with someone he’s related to) and 2) probably, that his heritage might threaten Daenerys’ claim to the Throne- and kinda shake her alliances (potentially) or her “security” as an Heir. Hence why I think Jon will NEVER come out officially as anything but “Ned Stark’s bastard”. Kinda like Ned, who kept the secret all his life, out of “duty” and love for someone else (Jon and Lyanna mostly). Jon is Jon Snow. You can see it among the fandom itself, NO ONE takes him as “Aegon Targaryen”. So I think he’ll remain Jon Snow and never claim anything more than that. And he already achieved A LOT for a bastard, he’s King in the North right now, ffs. Now of course I think he’ll tell Daenerys, but for different reasons than his claim.As for Daenerys, it’s hard to say what she thinks about incest. On the show, she has a very twisted relationship with Viserys, so that might not jolt good memories to her. But in the books, Daenerys is basically raised by her brother telling her that had she been born earlier, she would have married Rhaegar and Robert’s rebellion would have never happened (and that then, it’s her fault all their family died because she wasn’t born at the right time *rolls eyes* typical abusive bullshit ya kno). Hence, Daenerys was raised in a “well you would have married your own brother!” mentality, in the books. On the show, we’ve had Daenerys’ whole journey being about shaping her as a leader, a Queen, and a woman of her own. I don’t see Daenerys bending the knee to Jon and I don’t see Jon asking her to do that: they’re way beyond that. Daenerys swore to help Jon before he bent the knee, she was over this idea of “petty wars” for the throne and who has allegiance to who. She wanted Jon to accept Cersei’s deal at the Dragon Pit if it meant them having Cersei’s army to help them against the WW. Hence, Daenerys was ready to accept that Jon “came back” on his allegiance to her, for the greater good. I’m tired of people presenting Daenerys as a crazy despote who is STILL thinking about the Iron Throne. It’s at the bottom of her priorities right now: she’s LITERALLY riding north with all of her army, abandoning her stronghold of Dragonstone, to get to Winterfell and help people who owe her nothing. People whom she knows, won’t accept her right away. Daenerys had nothing to gain in trusting Jon at the beginning of s7: for all she knew (and tbh Tyrion vouching for Jon was a stupid move, because they hadn’t seen each others for 7 fucking years and stop pretending that there aren’t tons of GoT characters who literally switched alliances in that time), Jon could have been an ally to Cersei trying to have Daenerys shift her focus for Cersei to hit her. I mean? Yes we know these characters, but they didn’t know each others at the time. In the meantime, when she learnt more about Jon, Daenerys literally trusted Jon with everything: she sacrificed one of her dragons for him ffs. She rode North, risking her own life to save him, on nothing - at this point - but his words that Ice Zombies were a real thing. Daenerys’ trust in Jon is absolute, otherwise, again, why would she fall in love with him if it weren’t? I mean I could add another argument to that using the leaks that I’ve read but I’m not going to spoil it. All in all, people who pretend that Daenerys could turn on Jon like the second she learns that he’s Rhaegar’s son are… delusionals. And just blindly hate Daenerys or like to pretend that she’s “the Mad Queen” or whatever. It’s not Dany who made a vow to help him and ends up not sending any troops. *shrugs* She’s coming to Winterfell with her FULL FORCE: the army she spent YEARS to build, through horrible trials and difficulties and all that struggle. She could lose it all to help Jon and to fight for a cause that is way greater than the Iron Throne. Tbh I think the Iron Throne is as relevant as Cersei seems to be in the trailer: not at all. Anyway now I know Spring will eventually follow and if King’s Landing is still a thing, if Jon and Daenerys both survive, the question of the Iron Throne will still be a thing. Now I’m wondering if Daenerys’ vision in the House of the Undying didn’t represent what we already saw on s7: winter coming, Daenerys walking to claim her throne, but being “called” by another purpose. She steps away from the Throne and then walks North of the Wall. It’s basically what she did by the end of s7. The Snow in KL could be a symbol for Jon and not even the fact that the King’s Landing is gonna be destroyed by the Night King, who knows. I still think Daenerys has a stronger chance to end up on the Iron Throne than Jon. Personally I’m still on the side of believing that Daenerys will even be pregnant, which would mean that Jon and her wouldn’t even have some kind of “power struggle” over whose claim is stronger than whose. They’d do what is best for their child. And yeah I know the most memorable “incest child” was Joffrey, but let’s all remember, as Tyrion himself said, that Myrcella and Tommen were very good, nice and gentle children, even tho they were born of incest. I don’t know if I believe the marriage theory because as I said, I don’t know how Jon and Dany will react about the incest thing. Will Jon still marry Dany and still be with her even tho Kit said that it’s not Jon’s type? Idk. Maybe it’ll be an “impossible love” kind of thing. Maybe it’ll be a call-back to what Maester Aemon said: what do you choose between duty and the love of a woman? The feeling of a newborn in your arms? At the time, Jon believed Ned would choose duty, that it would be the honorable thing to do, soooo? Again, seeing from some leaks I’ve read that I won’t put into details, I think it’s a strong possibility to have Jon not being anywhere near power at the end of the show, but rather roaming North, leading what could be the “after Night’s Watch”, like with Tormund and people going North of the Wall, like perpetuating this idea of “Shield that Guards the Realms of Men”. It’s also a thing that could separate Jon and Daenerys, their very different ambitions: Jon stated several times that he could just live in a cave with Ygritte, with nothing but love and food and good company ya know. While Daenerys has rejected “good company” (Daario) for the Throne, already. I mean, yeah she wasn’t in love with Daario, but Daario did offer her a “simple relationship” and she refused it. Also to come back to her vision at the House of the Undying, we do see Daenerys refusing to live in a hut with a man she loves (Drogo… it’s presented as love in the show, so *shrugs*) and their son, because something else called out to her- her dragons, reality, her claim to the Throne. I’m rambling a lot, right? Anyway to be clear, I don’t think Daenerys is a “Targaryen demon” who will unleash her wrath upon Jon and try to kill him or destroy him when learning he’s HER BROTHER’S son. Like? Okay I know Dany never met Rhaegar, but she still tried to learn a lot about him - in the show’s canon. She’s named her dragon after Rhaegar. She loves him, and she’s in love with Jon. These things don’t just go away, and the characters won’t become sudden enemies circling around the Throne and making war to each other. I just roll my eyes at all this “targ bowl” / “dark!dany” bs. It won’t happen. Daenerys is better than that and I can’t wait for all these people to shut the freak up for good- when the show ends. Daenerys is painted as a hero on the show, and anyone not seeing it, is just trying to bend the story. Yes she’s had to make hard decisions, just like a lot of other characters have. She struggled with these decisions and had remorses about these decisions, like A GOOD PERSON would. I think Jon and Daenerys in their relationship are beyond the Throne. I don’t think Jon fell in love with Daenerys with the idea of “well I’ll become King if she wins!” and I don’t think Daenerys fell in love with Jon with the idea of “wow I’ll unite the North and the South by doing that!”. As the scripts and the characters point it out: it’s not the right time for it to happen, it’s not even right for it to happen because in fact they’re related (hence Bran’s voice over the sex scene), but it happened because… sometimes heart is stronger than duty. Hence, it mirroring Rhaegar and Lyanna’s marriage on the show: Rhaegar and Lyanna chose love over duty (even tho no comment about book!Rhaegar). They ended up being a tragic story. That’s a very strong theme in both Daenerys’ and Jon’s storylines. Duty vs Heart. I do think there’s a decent chance for them to choose love, even tho it would probably be “too good” of an ending for GoT- like “they lived happily ever after”: so maybe they’d turn tragic like Lyanna and Rhaegar, idk. So I’d say maybe they’ll choose duty and that will split them up? And if that’s the case, well we know from their storylines, that Dany’s duties will be as a Queen, while Jon’s always lied elsewhere, dealing with things Kings and Queens didn’t bother to take seriously. I’m sorry to all their fans, but I think Bran’s voice being over their most intimate “love confirmation” scene, just kinda foreshadows the fact that they won’t just be a fairytale story that will end all good. I think they have more chances to be tragic, but I don’t think they’ll be separated by their claims over the Throne. They won’t fight over the Throne. But tbh as much as I don’t see that happening, I also don’t see Jon and Dany just shrug the incest reveal away and keep on being lovebirds in denial. I think it’ll hit them in their intimacy as people and not as Heirs, is what I mean. *shrugs* A very long answer, sorry. I probably rambled a lot. I think people are jumping to conclusion: even tho he’s Rhaegar’s son, Jon has no relationship to him and no ambition to claim it as any “legitimacy” at ending up on the Throne. To me, Jon has never been a character wanting power like this- several characters said, “Jon Snow is no King” or “Jon Snow doesn’t want to be King” and these are important traits of his character that won’t disappear just because he has a new daddy who would have sat on the Iron Throne in another reality (also let’s remember that Rhaegar REFUSED his place as Heir to the Throne, and that he left Westeros with Lyanna *shrugs*). To me, Rhaegar, Jaime and Jon are very similar characters, in that they’re mostly Knights and don’t thrive for power. Rhaegar already refused power. Jaime also did as an Heir to Casterly Rock. Daenerys, Sansa and Cersei are the ones who are similar to each others, on the other hand. All three were raised to be Queens. All three imagined themselves as Queens. Anyway, that’s my take on that, I think the fact that only the “legacy characters” (Sam and Bran: Sam wanting to be a Maester, and Bran being the Three-Eyed Raven) know about Jon’s real heritage, is also a big clue: that it’s not about the story, but more about the legacy of what will survive after the Winter, and what will become “History”, kinda. I mean, if you think about it, after Robert died, Ned could have come out with his bastard son and say “well he’s Rhaegar Targaryen’s son!”, I mean? He would have had Howland Reed to back him up. But he didn’t, because I don’t think it’s meant to make Jon into a “player” for the Throne. And I think Sam and Bran are the most loyal, selfless characters, who will accept Jon’s decision if he decides not to “come out” officially as Rhaegar Targaryen’s son and Heir to the Iron Throne. Did I end up answering the question? Idk, man. Sorry about all of this, lol…

[aboveallarescuer]

Daenerys Targaryen's tropes - Upbringing Makes the Hero

"Heroes are made, not born" is a common and unstated theme in a lot of works. Though a good many heroic origins proudly trot out heroes who have been raised in The Spartan Way and can look Death in the eye-sockets without blinking before leaving their Tibetan monastery home, quite a few grew up Farm Boys who never picked up anything sharper than a hoe, though those can be quite a handful.

In fact, heroes with a down to earth upbringing tend to have a unique advantage over the more badass and epic ones: they're more centered. While they won't be saints, they'll have a strong enough moral compass to navigate most moral dilemmas, resist The Dark Side, and even refute Hannibal Lectures that more emotionally fragile heroes struggle with. If they gain super powers, they won't forget "the little people" and turn into a Smug Super with delusions of grandeur. Though they didn't gain the crime-fighting prowess of a lifetime of Charles Atlas training, or the street-savvy of an orphan with a Dark and Troubled Past, they also didn't sacrifice basic skills or their social life.

Daenerys's background

A princess, Dany thought. She had forgotten what that was like. Perhaps she had never really known. (AGOT Daenerys I)

~

After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper’s hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.

At first the magisters and archons and merchant princes were pleased to welcome the last Targaryens to their homes and tables, but as the years passed and the Usurper continued to sit upon the Iron Throne, doors closed and their lives grew meaner. Years past they had been forced to sell their last few treasures, and now even the coin they had gotten from Mother’s crown had gone. In the alleys and wine sinks of Pentos, they called her brother “the beggar king.” Dany did not want to know what they called her. (AGOT Daenerys I)

~

“The Milk Men shun him. Khaleesi, do you see the girl in the felt hat? There, behind the fat priest. She is a—”

“—cutpurse,” finished Dany. She was no pampered lady, blind to such things. She had seen cutpurses aplenty in the streets of the Free Cities, during the years she’d spent with her brother, running from the Usurper’s hired knives. (ACOK Daenerys III)

~

“My brother visited Pentos, Myr, Braavos, near all the Free Cities. The magisters and archons fed him wine and promises, but his soul was starved to death. A man cannot sup from the beggar’s bowl all his life and stay a man. I had my taste in Qarth, that was enough. I will not come to Pentos bowl in hand.”

“Better to come a beggar than a slaver,” Arstan said.

“There speaks one who has been neither.” Dany’s nostrils flared. “Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and
I ... my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?” (ASOS Daenerys II)

Key examples of Daenerys's mindset and actions as queen that reflect her past experiences

Death followed death. Weak children, wrinkled old women, the sick and the stupid and the heedless, the cruel land claimed them all. Doreah grew gaunt and hollow-eyed, and her soft golden hair turned brittle as straw.

Dany hungered and thirsted with the rest of them. (ACOK Daenerys I)

~

“I was alone for a long time, Jorah. All alone but for my brother. I was such a small scared thing. Viserys should have protected me, but instead he hurt me and scared me worse. He shouldn’t have done that. He wasn’t just my brother, he was my king. Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?”

“Some kings make themselves. Robert did.”


“He was no true king,” Dany said scornfully. “He did no justice. Justice ... that’s what kings are for.” (ASOS Daenerys III)

~

Dany set great store by Ser Jorah’s counsel, but to leave Meereen untouched was more than she could stomach. She could not forget the children on their posts, the birds tearing at their entrails, their skinny arms pointing up the coast road. “Ser Jorah, you say we have no food left. If I march west, how can I feed my freedmen?”

“You can’t. I am sorry, Khaleesi. They must feed themselves or starve. Many and more will die along the march, yes. That will be hard, but there is no way to save them. We need to put this scorched earth well behind us.”

Dany had left a trail of corpses behind her when she crossed the red waste. It was a sight she never meant to see again. “No,” she said. “I will not march my people off to die.” My children. “There must be some way into this city.” (ASOS Daenerys V)

~

When she looked over one shoulder, there it stood, the afternoon sun blazing off the bronze harpy atop the Great Pyramid. Inside Meereen the slavers would soon be reclining in their fringed tokars to feast on lamb and olives, unborn puppies, honeyed dormice and other such delicacies, whilst outside her children went hungry. A sudden wild anger filled her. I will bring you down, she swore. (ASOS Daenerys V)

~

Her audience chamber was on the level below, an echoing high-ceilinged room with walls of purple marble. It was a chilly place for all its grandeur. There had been a throne there, a fantastic thing of carved and gilded wood in the shape of a savage harpy. She had taken one long look and commanded it be broken up for firewood. “I will not sit in the harpy’s lap,” she told them. Instead she sat upon a simple ebony bench. It served, though she had heard the Meereenese muttering that it did not befit a queen. (ASOS Daenerys VI)

~

Reznak would have summoned another tokar next, but Dany insisted that he call upon a freedman. Thereafter she alternated between the former masters and the former slaves. (ADWD Daenerys I)

~

He was too eloquent for her. Dany had no answer for him, only the raw feeling in her belly. “Slavery is not the same as rain,” she insisted. “I have been rained on and I have been sold. It is not the same. No man wants to be owned.” (ADWD Daenerys III)

~

Her freedmen were represented by the captains of the three companies she had formed—Mollono Yos Dob of the Stalwart Shields, Symon Stripeback of the Free Brothers, Marselen of the Mother’s Men. Reznak mo Reznak hovered at the queen’s elbow, and Strong Belwas stood behind her with his huge arms crossed. Dany would not lack for counsel. (ADWD Daenerys III)

~

When you smashed the slave trade, the blow was felt from Westeros to Asshai. Qarth depends upon its slaves. So too Tolos, New Ghis, Lys, Tyrosh, Volantis … the list is long, my queen.”

“Let them come. In me they shall find a sterner foe than Cleon. I would sooner perish fighting than return my children to bondage.” (ADWD Daenerys IV)

~

“Lingering here will never bring it any closer. The sooner we take our leave of this place—”

“I know. I do.” Dany did not know how to make him see. She wanted Westeros as much as he did, but first she must heal Meereen. (ADWD Daenerys IV)

~

Yesterday a wagon had been overturned and two of her soldiers killed, so today the queen had determined that she would bring the food herself. Every one of her advisors had argued fervently against it, from Reznak and the Shavepate to Ser Barristan, but Daenerys would not be moved. “I will not turn away from them,” she said stubbornly. “A queen must know the sufferings of her people.” (ADWD Daenerys VI)

[thelawyerthatwaspromised]

idk if you've already answered this, 'if' sansa and jon end up together before the parentage reveal jon will automatically because the stark name since sansa is the highborn.. but after the reveal how would that work like customs wise can he give up the targaryan name? sansa taking the name? like this probably isnt such a big deal.. but i wonder even though to me no matter the names will always be starks

You sent a follow-up ask where you said nevermind about this but..

I still wanna answer!

There’s a general sentiment that Jon is legitimized so if he gets married, his wife must be Targaryen.

But for more than a hot minute my opinion has been that, in the Doylist world, Jon has always wanted to be Jon Stark and Sansa has been fighting almost all series to be Sansa Stark. So ending up married with the name Stark is fulfilling from that angle. It would also guarantee that Jon and Sansa’s children are known as Starks and J&S keeps WF in the Stark lineage. All good external reasons for Jon to end up as a Stark.

From a Watsonian perspective, there are two main reasons I think Jon could end up Jon Stark. The first being that I think it will flatly be very hard to prove that Jon is a Targaryen from an official/legal standpoint.

They’ll have Bran’s visions and Sam’s parchment paper sure. Maybe even Howland Reed pops out of the Neck with a first hand account and a harp. But it’s still tricky proving a kid belongs to two dead parents without DNA etc.

Jon could most definitely have his Targaryen-ness “affirmed” by marrying Daenerys. Then there’s be no question about it and even if there were legit legal questions about it, marriage solves the issue. In the same vein, if Jon were to come into conflict with Daenerys - I doubt Jon would want affirmation as a Targaryen and I doubt Jon could get affirmation as a Targaryen through Daenerys anyway.

This leads my other in-universe reason for believing Jon ends the story as Jon Stark: it’ll serve as a total repudiation if House Targaryen. If Jon’s lineage is known but unverifiable (which has happened before ex: Joffrey & Tommen were known to not be Robert’s sons but nothing could reeeeally prove that and they were in power already or the fact everyone seemed to know Ramsey killed Roose but everyone that knew the truth just agreed to the lie about Roose’s death) then Jon may still be called Jon Snow before he were to marry anyone but still be viewed as the best choice for the Throne with royal blood. As Westeros’ most eligible bachelor, he’d surely have a highborn lass who would marry him but I doubt very much he’d take any other last name save for one: Stark.

Being Jon Stark is the first thing Jon ever wanted. He punished himself for wanting these things as he never viewed himself as belonging to the family due to his birth. He viewed himself as a stain on the honor of Ned.

Now, all the sudden, he gets to see his role in the restoration of House Stark from a completely different perspective. He IS an outsider by his birth - but in a way that actually enables him to have all the things he never could have when he was the bastard of Ned Stark. Marrying Sansa as Jon Snow and becoming known as Jon Stark gives Jon what he’s always wanted and reaffirms Sansa’s status as the Lady of Winterfell in a way that no other character combination can do for either character.

You might be asking yourself: “so what the heck is the point of RLJ then? You go on and on about it’s importance, but he’s still Jon Snow here! What gives?”

My answer for that is that RLJ will be most important for the effect it has on the people in Westeros and how they view Jon.

I expect Dany to probably at first be elated that she’s found a Targ to create her vision of home atop the Throne. It’ll fill her with a false hope. Because she’s under the assumption that Jon is in love with her…which was setup by Political!Jon in S7. 

Uh oh. 

Jon didn’t plan on being a Targaryen. Now he’s got Dany resting her entire vision of the future with him AND his refusing that shared future now puts him squarely into the “threat” category if Dany ascends the Throne and Jon does not. If Jon were to have children with anyone else they would be a direct threat to Dany’s line (if she has children).

It’s a mess. As a Targaryen Jon must be with Dany or he and any offspring are a threat in perpetuity. Then let’s say that Dany gives Jon reason to break their alliance - suddenly Dany’s entire vision of her future starts crumbling and the person she thought she loved becomes the biggest obstacle for her getting the only thing that would remain to her; the Throne. Terrible no good very bad situation for Dany.

To Sansa, Jon becomes the most trustworthy, kind, strong, and worthy suitor she could have imagined. They didn’t grow up closely as siblings but they’ve developed a trusting partnership that has confused savvy characters like LF and Arya who both doubted their commitment to one another only to find out otherwise.

Sansa will have a way to remain a Stark, for WF to be in good hands once she and her husband were to pass, and to have a personal fulfillment in finding a brave, gentle, and strong match that represents the True Knight she always hoped for. This wasn’t possible so long as Jon was viewed as Ned Stark’s bastard. The pieces wouldn’t fit because the two would never allow themselves to marry as half siblings.

As to the rest of the Realm, RLJ adds to Jon’s bona fide resume as a candidate for king. Even as Jon Snow he possibly could be chosen - but even Robert relied on his 1/16th Targaryen heritage to bolster being chosen as the king.

So while Jon-as-Targaryen may never be definitively proven, it certainly would add to lend legitimacy to his reign if he were chosen and popularly supported by the people. If Cat can throw around the Tully card long after marrying Ned, I see Jon being able to do the same even if he is a Stark married to Sansa. Jon has made friends with nearly every person who might ever have a lordship by the conclusion of the TV series and Sansa has made allies of the rest (the Vale) or she has blood ties to the others (Edmure Tully and the Riverlands) to the point where Westeros should be rooting for this pairing.

Their union makes a peaceful and prosperous “after” to the war possible. This can’t really happen with a Jon/Dany pairing and it can’t really happen with Jon as Ned’s bastard as it would preclude a Jon/Sansa marriage.

So yeah. Jon Stark 2019. Buy some stock in it now!