"Is the Berlin Interpretation still relevant?" Part 10 - Results
So, I guess I should finally explain what I'm talking about. I promise I'll stop spamming these tags now.
The Berlin Interpretation of Roguelikes is a genre definition that was made at a roguelike dev conference in 2008. It was a handful of people who were inspired by Rogue to make their own procedural death labyrinths. This was just before Spelunky. It was before The Binding of Isaac, it was before FTL, and it was before Risk of Rain. In other words, this interpretation was made right before the definition of a roguelike radically changed. Before these genre fusions, roguelikes were mostly games like NetHack and Angband, games that were directly inspired by this RPG from 1980. They were roguelikes, because they were "like Rogue."
But let's talk about what this interpretation is actually doing. It is not, in fact, a set of rigid guidelines of what features a game needs to be part of the genre. It is a set of high and low value factors, that a game may not have all of, but the more it has, the more it is, well, Rogue-like. There isn't a game that purely embodies each of these factors, because there's doesn't have to be. Even Rogue isn't fully faithful to this interpretation. It's just that if your game has enough of these factors, then it's clearly working in the same design space, and part of the broader conversation. That's all it was doing.
So is it still relevant? Well, kind of, but not really. Sure, permadeath and procedural generation are still important to people, but for it to be turn-based and grid-based aren't necessary anymore. And I guess for the later polls, either people got tired of me posting these in their tags every day, or they just don't have an opinion one way or the other, because their vote counts didn't even hit the triple digits. It seems like complexity, resource management, and exploration/discovery are still important, while non-modal gameplay and hack-and-slash aren't as much. But I hesitate to give these results the same kind of credence because of how many people from the earlier polls didn't vote on these ones.
It seems like, these days, the roguelike isn't really about its base mechanics. It's a structural genre. You can graft any base mechanics onto it, as long as you start a new run after you die, and each run is made unique by randomness. It seems pretty straightforward.
Okay, what about Mystery Dungeon?
The Mystery Dungeon games these days are mostly known for being Pokemon spinoffs, but the series goes back to the 90s with games like Shiren the Wanderer. These games are directly inspired by the original Rogue, complete with grid-based movement, item discovery, and heavy resource management. It's more "like Rogue" than a lot of modern roguelikes. But because it's structured more like a Japanese RPG, with checkpoints, persistent progression, and a full-blown story, it would probably nowadays be called a "roguelite." Even though it precedes that term by decades!
I'm honestly really surprised that Mystery Dungeon doesn't come up more in discussions about roguelikes. Like, it's a really obvious point of contention, and one that's worth talking about. But only one person in my replies actually mentioned Mystery Dungeon in their thoughts about permadeath. I suspect it's because most of the roguelikes people are invested in these days are indie PC games from the West, while Mystery Dungeon is a Japanese series on console and handheld. But I can't prove it.
Speaking of roguelites though, we have to talk about that term. I don't think that "roguelite" is an inherently elitist term, or that it's useless as a label. it clearly serves some purpose in conversation, even if I wouldn't use it myself. I don't want to prescribe my definitions of terms from on high. I want to understand how people are using these terms in daily practice.
And it seems like it comes down to two definitions. One is the Berliner standpoint. It's less common, but it sees some use. Basically, if you're not making a grid-based dungeon crawler, you're not really making a game "like Rogue," are you? Genre fusions like Risk of Rain and Slay the Spire play completely differently from the roguelikes of old, so it feels weird to just call them roguelikes. This is treating it as a mechanical genre, defining roguelikes by dungeon-crawling in the same way we define a shooter by shooting.
The other definition is a broader one, defined by two key features: procgen and permadeath. This is the most common one in modern conversations about roguelikes, because it takes it as a given that these genre fusions are what roguelikes Are. By this framing, a roguelite is any procgen game that features persistent upgrades. Something like Rogue Legacy, where your progression isn't just you as a player, but your character growing more powerful. Permadeath and procgen serve a very specific purpose in conjunction with each other, and there is a sense where either of these factors being diluted misses the entire point. But plenty of people don't put stock into the like/lite distinction, because they don't see it as mattering. No definition here is wrong, they're just all operating under different beliefs.
(sigh) Look, genre is a lot like gender. In fact, in some languages, they're the same word. It's vague, it's arbitrary, and it doesn't make sense if you squint too hard. But it's important to people, either to describe what they're doing or to understand what others are doing. There's never going to be a strict, clear definition of roguelike that perfectly covers all cases, because that's just not how genre works. Roguelikes are what we mean when we talk about roguelikes. It's very easy to poke fun at a genre label like this, but it's a lot harder to understand what it's doing, and what it means to people. That's the conversation that really matters here.
Is the Berlin Interpretation still relevant? Not as much as it used to be. But your interpretation is what's really important.
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Chapter 1 Morning of Nightmares
Link woke up and went about his daily routine. Bathed himself in the pond outside, went back inside to get himself dressed, and then left to get ingredients. As he walked across the bridge that connected his house to the rest of Hateno Village, one of his neighbors greeted him.
"Good morning Link! Beautiful day, isn't it?"
"Of course! I have some trips to make today. Epona and I are visiting Hyrule Castle Town, Kakariko Village, and Rito Village to get some ingredients for our town's founding celebration feast!", Link gushed. "I am looking forward to the feast!"
His neighbor smiled "Ah, I knew we could count on you, young one! Thank you!"
Link gave him a quick smile before walking to the stable where Epona was waiting "Alright, are you ready, girl? We've got a long day ahead of us."
Chapter 1 Morning of Nightmares (1555 words) by ShadowSear
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: The Legend of Zelda & Related Fandoms, Pocket Monsters | Pokemon - All Media Types, Pokemon Fan Games, Skylanders (Video Games), 鏄庢棩鏂硅垷 | Arknights (Video Game)
Rating: Mature
Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence, Major Character Death
Characters: Link (Legend of Zelda), Zelda (Legend of Zelda), Ganondorf (Legend of Zelda), King Rhoam Bosphoramus Hyrule, Nicole (Pokemon Insurgence), Zedra (Pokemon Empyrean), Sora (Arknights), Texas (Arknights), Lappland (Arknights)
Additional Tags: Crossover, Crossovers & Fandom Fusions, Multiple Crossovers, Nightmares, Fear
Series: Part 1 of Everything's End
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A List of all my Tumblr Blogs!
Ranging from personal use to ask blog stuff!
- PERSONAL BLOGS -
@jazzymudkip
My main "personal" blog! I reblog literally whatever I want there care free, so take note of that.
@jazzy-art-time
Art Blog! You are ALREADY here! Congrat!
@jazzyarchive
My Archive blog! For deleted meme posts, deleted blogs, etc etc. Just so I can keep a nifty archive for myself!
- ASK BLOGS -
List of all my CURRENT askblogs.
Each blog has its own sensitive content tags/warnings available to see on the blog themselves.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Not all blogs are entirely active, I switch which blogs I update based on my mood or what my passion is aiming towards.
@mod-jazzy
Mod Blog for all askblog related things, the "primary hub" of sorts.
@asktidethegastrodon
Blog about Tide the gastrodon and Co. Plot driven and based on End of Days and the 7 deadly sins.
@tales-from-kirkland
Blog about pirates! Following the "imfamous" Kirkland family member, M. Has a lotta pokemon hybrids/fusions.
@ask-scrafty
Blog following Jody, a scrafty who has been cursed by a powerful witch to hunt monsters/myths to survive. (Primarily anthro pokemon)
@ask-eden
Blog for the worlds worst mew, Eden. A mew born without any powers forcefully thrust to become powerful to save his universe against MissingNo.
@ask-wasteland-labs
Blog based on anthro pokemon and the SCP foundation. Following Jennichu and her family as they face a SCP Containment Breach. (Entirely anthro pokemon based)
@flake-n-rudy
Blog about Flake, Hyphen, Nymph and Rudy. Four unevolved pokemon trying to get into the Great Galar Race. I'm sure nothing bad happens. (PMD style story/lore)
@asktauros
Blog about several tauros children who get lost from home and struggle to survive and find their way back home.
@poke-magica
Blog based on anthro pokemon and the Madoka Magica universe. Yes it's a magical (poke)girl blog. (Entirely Anthro pokemon based)
@ask-skitty
Blog about Stocking the skitty! A PMD universe blog heavily based on PMD:Explorers of Darkness but with several of my own personal story twists so it's not entirely the same story being retold. (also used to be my first pokemon comic ever back on deviantart heehoo)
@askduskull
Blog based on horror and horror themes. Following a duskull who hates the light and several other ghastly ghouls and what have you.
@maybe-mienshao
Blog based on Koi the mienshao. A more "daily blog" styled blog kind of. Switches on and off between story based or more daily blog style requests.
@interdimensional-retail
Blog based in a Interdimensional Retail store. Follows the main merchandising team and various floor associates and their struggles with working in the retail environment.
-- MISC BLOGS --
@bunnybrunko
Original OC Comic blog, INACTIVE as of right now.
@swshstory
Pokemon SwSh comic blog, INACTIVE as of right now.
@jarble-au
INACTIVE / WIP CURRENTLY
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