#same sex attracted

[religion-is-a-mental-illness]

The New Pride | Andrew Doyle & Peter Boghossian

“Is the trans movement anti-gay?” In honor of Pride Month, Peter Boghossian begins this conversation with an investigation into the increasing rejection of trans ideology by the LGB (without the T) community. Peter’s guest is Andrew Doyle, acclaimed author, comedian, and host of Free Speech Nation on GB News. Here’s an important piece of information to better understand this conversation: Andrew is gay. Andrew explains the impact the trans movement has inflicted on gay people over the last several years, including the rise of abusive language toward gays he “hasn’t seen since the ‘80s." Lesbians are labelled “sexual racists” or “transphobes” if they reject trans women as partners. (The same is true for gay men rejecting trans men—that is, women—but the abuse is not as pervasive.) Peter and Andrew discuss the incoherence of gender ideology, the nature of sexual attraction, how predators manipulate gender self-ID, and the sterilization of gay youth. Also discussed: Bad woke art, sensitivity readers, primary education, censorship, standpoint epistemology, critical thinking, the long history of human fantasy and folly, and more. Andrew Doyle is a journalist, playwright, satirist, and comedian. He is the creator of Titania McGrath, “a radical intersectionalist poet committed to feminism, social justice and armed peaceful protest.” He is the host of Free Speech Nation and an unabashed lover of art and literature.

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Peter Boghossian: Is the trans movement anti-gay?

Andrew Doyle: In its current manifestation, yes. So, not trans people are anti-gay, but the predominant cheerleaders of trans activism in its most extreme form are most definitely anti-gay. Because the movement at present -- and it wasn't always this way, only over the past five, six years -- is now completely underpinned by the notion of gender identity ideology.

The concept of gender identity is a difficult one because no one ever defines it, least of all the activists themselves. The best we can come to is a kind of feeling, a kind of sense, of who you are and a sense of an authentic self.

Helen Joyce in her book "Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality," describes it as something akin to a sexed soul, which actually is very close to what certain trans activists have described it as. So, because it's not really pinned down definitionally, what we get, the most useful way of thinking about it is is that sense of self within, which is gendered. And whenever you try to get people to define it, they will say things like "I am a woman because I feel like a woman," which leads to a subsequent question, "but what is a woman," and then it's "whoever defines themselves as a woman," so we're in the realm of identity politics.

But gender identity ideology effectively is about ensuring that gender, as in the concepts of masculinity and femininity and stereotypical behaviors of what it means to be male and female, that those things are prioritized over biological sex.

And you even have, of course, activists again on the extreme side, who now pushed for the idea that not only is gender socially constructed, as in boys wear blue and girls wear pink - well there's nothing innate about that, is there - so there are certain modes of behavior that men and women have that are certainly socially constructed, there are others that are rooted in biology. But there's a great deal that is to do with social constructs.

But some activists will now say that even biological sex itself is a social construct. There's no really authentic way -- they've been saying that for many decades by the way, you've had voices in academia saying that for a long long time, even when I was at University, so there's nothing new about that; it's not true and it's never been true -- but it's now taken hold in society as though it is.

Peter: So, two things. One throwaway: one of the fake papers that Jim and I wrote, we titled it "Pre-epistemic Transgenderism." Since gender is a social construct and sex is a social construct -- this is so the argument goes -- no one ever truly knows their gender until after they've transitioned right, if we just remove the genitals from everybody, or if we just allow them to -- I can't remember what age it was -- you know at 12, they would transition, then they would know if that was a good thing or not. Yeah, pre-epistemic transgenderism.

[..]

So, what is anti-gay?

Andrew: Right, so that's the -- you asked whether it was anti-gay and I didn't really explain that.

So, the reason why it's anti-gay is because gay rights were secured through the recognition that there were always in any given society and culture a minority of individuals who are innately attracted to members of their own sex.

The debate about how that develops within individuals, that's a bigger debate and it's nothing to do with this. The fact is that there are a minority of people who are instinctively, innately attracted to members of their own sex. And that gay rights were secured by getting people to understand that.

Now you have groups like Stonewall, who's the UK's foremost LGBT charity, redefining the word homosexual to mean "same gender attracted."

That's not what it means. It's not homogendered, it's homosexual. It's people being attracted -- so a gay man isn't attracted to someone who identifies as a man they're attracted to men. Similarly, lesbians are attracted...

Peter: So, I just need to disambiguate. They're attracted to, and I'm trying to think about -- there's just no other way to say this without being vulgar. So, I'll put it on myself -- heterosexual is attracted to a natal woman or a person with a vagina.

Andrew: Right.

Peter: A gay person is attracted to a man that is in a natal, a biological -- someone born biologically male with a penis.

Andrew: Quite. But you see, extreme trans activists will twist that and say well, why are you obsessed with genitals, and they will then say that genital preferences are transphobic. But of course, you're not solely attracted to genitals. That is of course a part of the whole, part of everything that you are attracted to.

The idea that you're attracted to how someone perceives themselves doesn't make any sense whatsoever in terms of sexual attraction.

And it gets worse than that. Because Stonewall not only redefine the term, but then you have the CEO of Stonewall, Nancy Kelley, comparing lesbians who don't want to date people with penises, comparing them to "sexual racists," saying that if you're writing off whole groups of people, a whole demographic out of your dating pool, you want to examine your prejudice and you want to examine where that bigotry came from.

But a lesbian writing off men from a dating pool isn't bigotry, it's homosexuality. So it's very, very serious when effectively the whole precept of of homosexual rights has been drawn away, taken away.

And you've even got trans activists now who talk about how lesbians who don't want to sleep with someone who identifies as a woman but has a penis, that they are suffering from some kind of trauma. That's the phrase they use. They say this is an example of trauma.

And of course that's -- I mean the WHO perceived homosexuality to be a mental disorder as late as 1990. That's what they used to say to gay people, you're suffering from some kind of trauma , you're suffering some from some kind of mental illness. You're a gay boy so all you need to do is find the right girl. Or vice versa. And that's exactly what trans activists are saying.

Now there was a website called Woke Homophobia which collected thousands and thousands and thousands of screenshots of trans activists attacking gay people. The website has since been deleted, which is a shame that no one archived it, because people don't believe this. But there are, it's not just one or two people on Twitter. There are thousands of these people using the kind of language that I haven't seen since the 80s about gay people, talking about faggots, about how AIDS was a good thing, gay people should die.

I did a tweet the other day which was, it was a monologue that I did on my show about the pride flag. [..] And I put out a thing about how pride no longer represents gay people.

I got attacked from both the right and the left, or at least people who identify as right and left, I should qualify. I got attacked by outright right-wing reactionary homophobes calling me a sodomite, you know, saying that it is degraded you know, degeneracy is the word they like to use they also use. Like to spell the word "return" with a V instead of a u to invoke in Roman numerals this idea of this Grand Roman tradition. Believe me, if they went back to Rome they might not like it. But anyway, so those idiots you know you just block and move on.

And then similarly, I was being attacked by gender ideologues who identify as being on the left. Their responses were slightly worse because I had two of them saying I should kill myself, calling me a cis gay, saying cis gays like this should kill themselves, and another one called me a faggot, and that was coming from someone who says they're left wing.

Now that -- I've never heard that kind of language, not since I was a small child. It's sort of been out of our society for about 15 years that kind of stuff. But now that kind of virulent homophobia is coming from trans activists.

Peter: So, why are they calling you, what, why are they, why?

Andrew: Because they fundamentally believe that to be gay is transphobic. They don't say it that way, but what they are saying is that if you are writing off -- if I as a male and writing off women who identify as men okay then I am transphobic.

[flaming-archery]

When I believed I was a lesbian bc of the masterdoc, I always felt like something was off. I always felt so out of place in "lesbian" circles, as I found I could never exclude transmen from my dating pool. Now I know why.

[radicaldivine]

i’m not actually transphobic, i just have a fetish for vaginas. yeah. and it’s not cool to kink shame, remember?

[craycraybluejay]

You know how a pretty obvious majority of kinksters are submissives? You want to know a big part of the reason why it's hard to find a dom that's into the same hard kink you are?

Ask a hardcore masochist what they think of being whipped.

Then ask a hard sadist what they think of whipping someone.

Do you notice that the sadist/dom will often either dance around an answer or try to use soothing language/euphemism not unlike the way how in many places people are still expected to discuss sex if at all. Gentle, calculated language.

The issue is, especially with a new surge of purity culture overtaking so-called "leftist" online circles, is that fantasy becomes a moral judgement.

Sub with a noncon kink: "I want to be raped" (cnc but like. People can talk ab it how they want don't cancel me fr.)

Response from Normies: "well that's weird and kinda dark but ok"

Dom with a noncon kink: "I want to rape"

Response from Normies: "I'm calling the police and you should kys and you're also a sexual abuser and even though you haven't said anything about kids you're also also a pedophile :)"

Not only does the attitude of murderous hatred against doms/tops with hard kinks/fetishes/paraphilias make it difficult for them to practice those kinks (safely and ethically) out of fear of social backlash if it's ever found out even if both they and their partner[s] had a great time and are fine-- but, it actively puts innocent people in danger by equating thoughts and attractions of ANY KIND to the act of hurting others against their will. It equates fantasy, which can oftentimes be played out safely if in a modified way with real harmful actions.

Also, kink is still illegal in many places, so don't "its illegal" me about harder kinks. Law is not morality, none of us are free until all of us are free, etc. You get the gist.

You want to see more doms? Meet someone who can indulge your "scary badwrong" sexy feelings? Then maybe don't actively promote a culture where you put ANY kind of attraction or kink under fire. It doesn't matter if it'd be unethical to act out in real life. Some of the most common kinks worldwide are unethical as fuck to act out irl, including rape. That's why we have cnc, come on, guys.

You know what? In fact, you SHOULD actively shun people who shame others for their sexual feelings. EVEN if you think it's gross. EVEN if it wouldn't be ethical to act on irl. Let these types know that their puritan ideals are NOT accepted here. Let them know that if they want to go to church they can do that but not in your space, not forcing other (non consenting!) people to listen to their hateful and repressive ideology.

Like, hey, I'm not into ABDL, for example. But I will defend to the death other people's right to be into that. To think and feel whatever they think and feel. You think diapers are sexy? Great! I don't personally see the appeal, but you do you boo. There is no Correct Way to be sex/kink negative. Either you believe in thought crime or you don't.

And yes, this post includes "harmful" paraphilias (I put it in quotes because they're only harmful if acted on), sadomasochism, mutilation fetishism, etc etc. Every "gross" or "evil" kink, fetish, para you can possibly imagine. The stuff that makes you horny is just stuff that makes you horny, and being horny is normal. Being "weird horny" is also normal. No one deserves to experience shame, let alone public harassment or hate over feelings they most of the time don't Choose to have. Be mindful of puritan rhetoric and strike it down when you see it.

[creatorsawoman]

I’m screaming. Absolutely screaming. Girl your card is being revoked because you’re not LGBT 😭

[cringengl]

Mike as Megan from But I'm A Cheerleader is still so real btw

[she-is-ovarit]

Hoping to find more lesbians or bisexual women out there (AFAB, to clarify). Interact with this post in some way so we can all find each other!

[tubularfem]

Happy pride and thank you to the gay, lesbian and bisexual elders who fought and died so that we could have a better life. To have the opportunity to be with the people we love openly.

gay people fought for their own liberation, are directly responsible for their own liberation. Implying we owe anything to someone else is deceptive and ahistorical!

[fadedelegance]

What’s bullshit is you people thinking these situations are even remotely analogous.

It is downright insulting to say that your persecution complex is the same as the oppression LGB folks have faced and continue to face in some parts of the world just because we are same-sex attracted.

Passing laws to protect minors from irreversible medical procedures when statistics show that most of them grow out of their dysphoria is not oppression. It’s not oppression to recognize that in many cases, dysphoria doesn’t cause anxiety, depression, or PTSD—anxiety, depression, and PTSD cause dysphoria. It’s not oppression to recognize that there are far fewer actual transsexual folks than the public is being led to believe there are. It is not oppression to point out how irrational and sometimes flat out dangerous TRAs are—there are trans people who point that out. It’s not oppression to point out that biological sex is real—that a woman is an adult human female and that women are oppressed because we are female. Preserving women’s sex based rights is not oppression.

All of this conflation is straight up insulting.

[transmasccofee]

”Saikis not into dudes he’s just obsessed with Satou bc he’s average. It’s an admiration thing.” listen. Have whatever interpretations you want I will not judge. But if that was true Saiki would also be obsessed with Sawakita. Also Asou wouldn’t have made so much of a point into having him say “well I don’t like these other completely normal characters they’re boring, Satou is Different” multiple times. Also he wouldn’t have had Saiki put Satou on the explicitly romantic crush chart.

[weird-grrrl]

every say thank you to @roses-edge for inspiring me to finally sit down and draw radfem/lgb memes

[burningtheroots]

No one is saying that trans-identified people cannot or should not find love with a romantic partner.

We are just saying that same-sex attraction is REAL, and that lesbian and bi women‘s same-sex attraction and boundaries NEED to be respected. And the meaning of homosexuality (exclusive same-SEX attraction) should not be taken away.

Women can say "NO" at any point, for any reason. Women do NOT owe anyone romantic or sexual intimacy, under zero circumstances. And when a woman simply doesn’t like male genitalia, or male anatomy as a whole, that‘s not a "preference", "fetishism" or "bigotry", it‘s her sexual orientation and her natural right.

[fuckspn]

wrote a whole long post about dean’s relationship to his queerness and then deleted it because i couldn’t put it better than: there is a word i know. but i can’t say it. i can’t think it. i’ll just keep drawing horses

[radfemsiouxsie]

You tell a trans person they're being homophobic by telling lesbians and gay men they have to have to sleep with the opposite sex and suddenly you're responsible for all trans people dying and worst than all the killers in the world

[hypervoxel]

The first time Vox said, "I love you," to Valentino, it went horribly wrong, because Val laughed and made a joke about how often he's heard that as a sex worker (especially now that he's in Hell and has become a walking talking aphrodisiac that Vox was currently high on). Vox is now so self conscious about his feelings and has never voiced them that way since. In Val's mind, he told Vox to only say that if he means it, but Vox hasn't told Val he loves him ever again, so Val certainly isn't going to be the one to say it first.