#she was possessive she was controlling constantly gaslit him

[floralcavern]

This fandom seriously just… frustrates me to the point where I’m writing this rant. 

This fandom does not understand flawed and complex characters. 

And, uh. Let’s talk about that. 

How they treat David and Exer:

The amount of bias this fandom holds for Exer and David is astounding. “Oh, the gay boys! They’re so sweet and wouldn’t hurt anyone!” (Paraphrasing, obviously, but this fandom does seriously put them on a pedestal)

When David and Exer were introduced, from very early on, they were shown to be heavily flawed characters. 

Exer is responsible for the entire story. He tricked Jackson to going to the girl’s changing room, which is what kicked off everything. Jackson getting bullied and harassed, Jackson eventually having his name cleared, Jackson not trusting the REDs, Jackson eventually learning about Exer’s powers, Exer having his powers found out, etc. This all started because Exer fucked with Jackson. He gaslit him to hell and back, he harassed him, he was jealous that Jackson was getting close with Brenda, his ex who he felt very possessive over. 

And David? David is a follower. He hears people saying “Jackson did something bad” and he immediately turned on Jackson, not hearing him out. Gossiping about him, talking shit to his face, letting people bully and harass him. And I understand that it was his sister, so he’s bound to feel more protective. But what happens when he learns it was actually Pamela who was ‘harassed’ by Jackson? He doesn’t care. 

And that moves me to David and Exer’s treatment of Pamela. Exer, like with Jackson, gaslit the shit out of her. He bullied her, called her a witch, called her creepy and a stalker and a liar. And he did this even though he knew she was right. He let people bully this poor girl to the point where she’s a loner with no friends and is picked on every day. 

I’m not saying Exer isn’t a good character. He actually has one of my favorite character arcs! But quit putting David and Exer on pedestals. Quit acting like they didn’t have any of the bad shit Jackson’s did to them coming. 

Speaking of Jackson…:

 Holy shit. This fandom is ruthless to Jackson Smith. And for no gosh damn reason. 

“He’s mean to Exer and David!”

Did you miss the whole ‘Exer and David harassing him in the same way they did to Pamela’ thing? They literally ruined all of his friendships and his social status. Jackson was just the new kid trying to fit in and they never gave him that chance. 

“He’s so emo and cringe!”

He is literally so depressed that he has to go to therapy. Exer and David bullied him so he is constantly guarded and has serious trust issues since they were his friends. 

“He’s using the diary to control Exer’s life and ruin it!”

Season 3 premier shows otherwise. He’s only testing out the diary to see what it can do. You telling me that if you didn’t have a magical diary that can control the universe centered around someone, you wouldn’t test it out? Don’t you lie to me. And he hasn’t even done anything horrible. In fact, he uses the diary as a way to try and help Exer and David after William kicked David out of the house. He may not like Exer, but he has good morals. He’s not going to let someone who is suffering be open to any harm. That’s why he used the diary to try and protect them both. And when it backfired, he decided to stop using the diary. He didn’t want anyone to get hurt or for anything bad to happen. 

“He beat up David!”

There we go again, putting Exer and David on pedestals. Guys, you’re blowing it way outta proportion. Jackson was in a fist fight with Exer, David tried to intervene and got kicked in the face. You know how people tell you don’t try to stop two dogs fighting unless you want to get bit? That’s what happened here. 

Jackson is literally just a traumatized kid. He lost his mom at a young age g age and moved to a new place and was hoping to make some new friends. His ‘friends’ immediately turn their backs on him and harass him. He learns one of them is behind everything that caused this? Ya, don’t tell me you wouldn’t be fucking pissed either. 

We are the audience. We have more insight to these character’s mind and situations than Jackson does. Put yourself into his perspective. 

Anyways, thank you for coming to my TED Talk. Make sure to pet Lucy-furr on your way out. 

[butchriptide]

I think Peril and Winter not getting a chance to interact more on friendly terms is one of the many crimes that arc 2, even if, in all fairness, I feel that Peril's POV book/involvement would've been more suitable to some other point in the series.

Because they ARE foils to each other, in a way. They both play on a theme that crops up in a lot of characters of WOF, which is the way that types of trauma and abuse can shape a person and their worldview.

Peril is CONSTANTLY drawn back in by Scarlet through the repeated message of "I am the only person capable of loving you." She spends her entire childhood being gaslit (and I mean genuinely gaslit, not the meaningless twisting of the word that the internet has given it. The actual abuse tactic gaslit.) and manipulated by the only maternal role in her life to be so dependent on her. She's hailed as Scarlet's Champion and a monster alike. She's feared in a way not unlike how Scarlet is feared, but Peril didn't choose that. Her image and role in her society is specifically selected to further isolate her. It isolates her so severely that she is made to feel that she has no hope of integrating into society even IF and WHEN Scarlet disappears from the Skywing kingdom. She's instructed to burn up helpless eggs before she can SPEAK to plant these seeds into her as early as Scarlet can, both in Peril AND in the society which engages with her. Scarlet carves herself into Peril so that Peril is convinced that she can't live without her, and she DELIGHTS in having this kind of specific, all encompassing control over her. She WANTS Peril to stay, not out of any real love for her, but because she loves that she could do this to somebody at all. Peril is just like any other piece of her lavish, extravagant hoard; loved like something intended to be owned, to be possessed.

Winter, meanwhile, is made JUST as dependent on his family, but by opposite means. Winter being nothing to his family, being a constant disappointment to the people he loves, is something that is reinforced time and time again from a young age. He's a failure the moment he fails his first hunt. And thus, he becomes easy to scapegoat. Hailstorm isn't the perfect image of an Icewing in many respects from what we know of him before his capture; he's shown to be goofy, and his plan is what actively gets him and Winter in trouble, but he's still hailed as perfect. Not to say that Hailstorm's treatment was less damaging, we don't know what his relationship to their parents was like beyond reputation, but it showcases that these traits aren't seen as default flaws by Narwhal and Tundra. It's just that you have to be able to justify any deviation from the norm. Everything that deviates from the perfect, ethereal Icewing in Winter though, is something to be picked at, something to be shunned. Slow and obsessive and now the reason his perfect brother's gone. And failing his family doesn't just reflect on Winter, but it in turn reflects on his family, who he loves, within their society. He's made dependent on his family with the intangible promise that if he was just a little better, just a little tougher, just a little more like what they want of him, he could have that love returned to him, he could justify being the one who was left behind in their eyes.

I just think they're the products of very opposite but ultimately overlapping circumstances. Abuse as direct action versus abuse as neglect. Both dependent but in opposing ways; both convinced they can't live without their abuser, but one is convinced into believing she is literally, physically dependent on her abuser while the other is convinced that he is OBLIGATED to prove himself to his abusers, that to live is to justify himself in their eyes. "Champion" as a leash to keep her on and a warm light on the tundra skyline that's never possible to actually reach.

[utilitycaster]

Humbly approaching to ask for elaboration on the “whose the problem” post for tm9 and bh’s, as well as those exceptions. If I could make exception guesses it’d be Caduceus ( boy who’s only kinda as special as he likes to think he is) and Fearne (girl who wonders why her parents left and then turns out her granny gaslit her and fucked with her lifespan.)

I'm going to answer this but first off you are hereby forbidden from using the word "gaslight" until you understand what it fucking means. It is not "deceived"; it is very specifically trying to make someone believe that they cannot trust their own sanity. Fearne has no doubts of the latter and there's no indication that Morri attempted to do that. The word you're looking for is "lied." She didn't tell Fearne she was crazy for missing her parents. She literally just lied about some things. It's not, you know, good of her to do; but it's absolutely not gaslighting. For actual gaslighting, please see Beau and Caleb's stories below. I also don't agree on your take on Caduceus, honestly; but that's beside the point and you are right that he and Fearne are two of the exceptions.

Anyway the exceptions to the former are Caduceus and Jester, who separately both came to their own conclusions that they were obligated to be the solution to a problem that did not necessarily exist, even though that wasn't something their parents told them they had to be (and even was something that worried their parents).

The rest of the Nein are pretty easy to cover. Fjord was explicitly told he was worthless and had been cast away by his family by people who were literally using orphans as sweatshot labor for the mob; and was bullied by other children. Beau was constantly told by her father that her ideas were stupid and that he'd wanted a son. Caleb was manipulated into becoming a tool of an evil wizard who was in turn a useful tool to those more measured and powerful (but also evil), and then left to rot when he actually felt remorse and had an understandable breakdown over his deeds. Yasha was constantly pushed towards a leadership position under the absolute control of her harsh and unloving adoptive mother and told that her feelings for Zuala were inappropriate because they were not with her sanctioned match. And Veth's background seems comparably tame next to these four examples of actual abuse, but the bullying she received was severe enough that she thought of herself as not particularly good at anything, even when her husband insisted she was actually fantastic.

Meanwhile in Bells Hells, and granted, we don't have the full picture so some of this is a little presumptive; Fearne and Orym are the exceptions, as Fearne is a slightly spoiled fey who has only just realized her grandmother might have had possessive intentions, and Orym is, by design, just a guy.

It's vaguely implied Chetney's actions against Oltgar may have been a complicating factor, and the nature of those actions is unclear and changes that part of the answer (ie, if he unionized against Oltgar, kicking him out is unjustified; if he murdered him, then like, I get where they're coming from even though I support Chetney's Wrongs) but also it's not a bad idea to tell a werewolf to leave and get their shit together due to the immediate danger.

Laudna is tough because, as I've said before, she's considered weird but fine in cities so I don't quite know why she keeps getting kicked out by villagers, but if we go by Hollow One canon, she does bear necromancy vibes and while trying to burn down her cabin is excessive, there is a reason necromancy is one of the few true taboos in magic. Attacking her is unjustified, but I can understand people wanting her to leave. (But also, this is one where we are either missing backstory...or should be missing backstory).

FCG is, well, a murderbot, but also from what we saw of Dancer, she was a rough and impatient person with a lot of problems of her own, but genuinely liked him. It was FCG who decided they were without a soul and less important than other people.

Imogen is interesting, actually, because I'm making an educated guess here, but, while she refers to things getting bad in Gelvaan shortly before Laudna came, we don't actually know what happen. My thought is that it's one of the following: either she heard people's thoughts and didn't have the tools to realize that like, we all have gross and terrible thoughts all the time and don't act on them, because intrusive thoughts and bad days are real and it's not inherently hypocritical to say, be nice to someone who annoys the shit out of you while thinking 'they annoy the shit out me.' So in that case it was her own cynicism and inability to understand she's perceiving things no one would ever share with her or even fully believes that made her feel hated. It's understandable, but it's also, ultimately, her making that choice. Alternatively, given how freely she does use her abilities and telepathy and telekinesis despite her dislike, she weirded everyone out and they felt invaded and responded in perhaps unkind but also understandable ways. I'd love to find out which it was!

And finally, Ashton. Ashton explicitly says that they've been somewhat complacent (not saying yes to people) and willing to just drift. Because the thing is, on the grand scale, yeah, nothing good has happened to them, but on a small scale, they've experienced real camaraderie in Bassuras and with the Nobodies, and it's implied that Laudna, Imogen, and FCG haven't had that kind of friendship before, it's not entirely clear with Fearne, and Chetney hasn't in a very long time. Ashton's story currently is someone kind of realizing that while other people around him have absolutely sucked, this is the area in his life where he rebels in little teenage ways but doesn't actually fight back or try to get out.

[fregget-frou]

I have art-block bad right now, so here’s a drawing of punk/alt Ben my freelancer oc! I wasn’t able to draw his full cowboy look but yeah here’s what he looked like ≈3 years before canon started

Sorry not really sorry for info dumping on my favorite listener oc, this is too fun

Also some of his tattoos, he likes snakes there’s more snake tattoos on him

Some little facts about him:

-he lives in California right now, not too far from where I’m guessing Dalila is (I originally thought it would be in Pennsylvania but after looking more into it the weather descriptions and plant visuals I got was just sequoias so eh)

- a little off track for a second, I do think dahlia would be somewhere in California, where’s there’s redwoods and stuff! Makes sense too with weather because it’s pretty hot here and only in the mountains it snows

-anyways, during this time he’s hoping jobs but he’s usually working manual labor like carrying boxes, cashier work, cleaning, working a bar that kind of stuff. Currently in this part of his timeline he’s most likely working at a bar that showcases music bands

-dresses in like exclusively tank tops and low rise jeans, to be fair he looks great in them

-hairs a lot shorter, and he dyes it. Mostly blue and black but one time he dyed it hot pink. He did not like it

- had a lot more piercings but either doesn’t wear them in often or let them close like on his ears. He got lazy lol. He still has his septum piercing and still wears it

-so many tattoos, he’s a dumbass so he’d probably get bog ruins on his body at some point

-the double eye tat was done with Vio (his best friend) and the eyes have each other’s eye colors in them :)

-knew a few magic users, didn’t really know that they were really

-he was kicked out at 19 so he’d been wandering for around 6-7 years before he met Gavin and went to Dahlia

-with all that time he tried to home in on a few magic abilities, with what little he knew how to control, even then magic was a sore spot so he tried to shut it away

-didn’t really work, he grew up a tree one time in a park after a shitty day after work, if he wasn’t so upset he would’ve been impressed lol

-was dating his ex at the time, Demeter who was a fire elemental and the one who told him to go to DAMN in the first place

-he learned how to make little fire people dance tho, and he was really good at just growing things like flowers and moss. So much moss he wasn’t thinking and accidentally covered his wall in moss

-a year before canon he started to change his style a lot, after a bad breakup with Demeter his lost a lot of self confidence

That’s all for now, I do remember a few of y’all wanting to see goth ben and even though he isn’t in emo cowboy attire I tried

[poisonousquinzel]

"so im not a real harley fan if i like her with joker????"

mhm, did i fucking stutter, honey?

Ha, lemme say it again.

Trigger Warning: Abuse

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly, consistently over decades, gaslit and manipulated her.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly and consistently emotionally and verbally berated her.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly, consistently, and constantly physically abused her.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly beat her and then shoved her out of a window 5 stories up, resulting in her being in wheelchair with a broken arm and leg and a neck brace.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly run her over with a car.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly chained her in a basement full of rotting corpses of "Past Harley's" and left her to die because "I'm very possessive. I don't like to share my toys. And since you're just another disappointment in a long line of them, I can't have you running around out there. Representing me. I have a reputation. A brand to protect."

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly strangled her for simply saying she's sorry they're ending No Man's Land without him.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly shot her off in/strapped her to a rocket because he realized he felt something resembling feelings for her.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly called her an "emotionally stunted, pestilent, dippy little dumpster stank."

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly given her babies rabies and stuck them on her.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly tried her up in a straightjacket and attempted to push her into a hole of chemicals on a stretcher.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly, countless times, smacked, punched or kicked her.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly called her an "Itch in his crotch".

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly tried to shoot and kill her (and only failed because it wasn't Harley in the costume.)

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly hung her by the neck with a chain.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly, consistently over decades, used her a pawn to get out of a situation with Batman and leaves her as bait.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly left her during a getaway as a distraction.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly left her bleeding out in a flipped over car during a get away.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly used electrocution on her. "Oh I'm not gonna kill ya, I'm just gonna hurt ya, really, really, bad."

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly pushed her into a vat of chemicals.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly manipulated her into jumping into a vat of chemicals to prove her love for him.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly tried to spray her with acid in a fit of rage.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly shoved her off a table for distracting him while he's busy.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly murdered her best friend.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly pushed her out of a plane.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly put hits out on her.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly tied Harley up and carved a J into her chest.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly beat her with a hammer.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly attempted to beat her over the head with a typewriter (and only failed because of a slow reacting side effect of Poison Ivy's plant that he used to escape Arkham.)

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly entirely failed to notice her being gone for 9 months when she was literally pregnant with his child.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly taken control of her mind with magic and forced her to jump off a staircase. "Harley? Harley...don't overreact. It's not like anything improtant's broken. You know, I can just make you open the door."

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you actively like and put her with a man who has canonly murdered her.

You are not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you see the trauma and hell he put her through and think any of that is excuse able or possible to overlook because "he held her that one time!" and "their dynamic is what we love!"

Their dynamic is The Joker abusing her.

Their dynamic is The Joker leaving her and ditching her in Arkham.

Their dynamic is The Joker undermining her ideas and her IQ time and time again until he gets threatened and knocks her out of a five story building.

They have never been this iconic "partners in crime" dynamic because The Joker has never viewed her as his equal, let alone his partner.

You're not an actual Harley Quinn fan if you somehow manage to purposefully overlook the decades of content proving and outright stating the abusive nature of the relationship just to justify liking them.

"well what about Poison Ivy!!!!!"

what about her????? this post is clearly not about them??? It's about The Joker and Harley. But, since every time we, HQ fans, try n bring up how trash The Joker is to her y'all wanna mention Ivy, here. Ya want be educated about the 80% completely taken out of context panels people love using to try n justify equalizing the toxicity of Harley's relationship with them, here. fucking here. go read, it's been there. y'all don't wanna do basic research ig.

like if it's enough for you to not ship Harley and Ivy, it's understandable! It's okay!

But trying to say that Ivy and The Joker are equally abusive and toxic is frankly insulting.

The Poison Ivy moments are bad, but they are 1. confined to BTAS Verse, namely the Comic BTAS Verse. 2. Most of the moments are also literally not Poison Ivy, something that certain people refuse to get through their skulls. Green Skinned Ivy in BTAS is a plant clone, is canonly a clone.

The difference between these moments with Poison Ivy and the incidents with The Joker is the way they're portrayed. One is common 90s slapstick written by frankly sexist men who've been open about their dislike/bias around Ivy's character and the other is a consistently painted and canonly abusive relationship.

I am a Harley Quinn fan first, I am coming at this as one.

If Ivy was as abusive as Joker, we would not ship them either.

I'm not against The Joker and Harley because I only want her with Ivy.

I'm against The Joker and Harley because he's canonly an abusive piece of garbage who has never cared about her and if Ivy went on acting like those moments from the BTAS comics in other Verses, I'd fucking be against Harley and Poison Ivy too.

[marshmallowprotection]

I replayed Seven’s route and saw through the secret ending episodes (haven’t done that since 2019) and man is it me or is Rika kinda apathetic towards Saeran in the secret endings. In Ray’s route and especially his AE, she’s so fixated and obsessed with him and Saeyoung in hopes of this “happy family” and to feel needed. She was obsessive and possessive saying how much she loves Saeran like a mom loves her son. But in the Secret Ending when Saeran had a mental breakdown over him not getting the revenge Rika promised him. She got irritated and basically asked her believers to brainwash Saeran again and treated him like he was disposable, like Saeyoung can just take his place in “paradise”.

Like what happened, do you think the time between Another Story and Original Story was enough for her to lose her humanity along the way and play prophet full time. Like how Saeran’s demeanor in both those timelines are different bc he had to withstand Mint Eye’s treatment long enough to fixate on revenge completely and get a tattoo that solidified his devotion to what he didn’t know was a false cause.

Do you think Rika’s apathetic attitude is why Ray was “disposed” of in OS (I would say as an alter he was just dormant, covering his eyes and ears in a sense yknow?). Ray didn’t really play any part in OS so I thought Rika was done “playing mom” (since in the AE she said she missed Ray bc Ray was someone who needed her.) and wanted 100% focus on her plan

Sorry for rambling too much, this started off as a simple question but then my brain went “wait 🤔 what if 🤨”

-Moomi✨

So, a lot of this comes down to how you feel about connecting the two stories. A lot of people do not connect Another Story and Deep/Casual. So there are people that will say that it's just two different realities where possible circumstance can happen. I personally connect the two and I write with that in mind. Let me just say that there is a two-year time period between the two points that you can play in. That is a long time for things to happen and play out.

It's only been 6 months since he was taken in Another Story when Ray is there. Not a lot of time has passed and he is fresh in paranoia and in the manipulation that has been expended upon him. He is loyal to a T and very emotionally distraught. He is very lost and clinging to the last shred of hope that he has. There's a part of him that is cut throat and willing to destroy if that's what he has to do, but there's another part of him that's crying out when that happens.

Because he doesn't want to do those things but he has no choice.

She is the only person that's left in his life that hasn't abandoned him and he truly believes everything that she's told him. He's constantly trying to get her praise and attention because he doesn't want to be left behind. Suit Saeran said to himself that all of their vulnerable points of holding onto hope are inside of Ray. There is a reason why without the MC that Ray wouldn't be able to survive for very long. It's because Ray would never be getting positive influence. He would be a hurt more and more the longer that he was forced to lash out.

It would eventually destroy him. It would be too painful for him to exist because he would have nothing and it would be pointless. He would run himself ragged to give his savior what she wanted and he wouldn't be able to keep up with what she wanted. It would overload him. That is why Suit Saeran what eventually emerge at some point during that time period that would be after Ray combusted.

Suit Saeran isn't exactly stable either. He is built on anger and animosity, but he has just as many emotions as Ray has even though he tries to deny them. It's just instead of balling up everything inside of him, he's taking it out on everyone else because that's what he's been told his strength. He would work himself just as hard as Ray had, but there would be a part in the side of him that was just as twisted.

I personally do not see Suit Saeran and Unknown as the same person so that's important to note here. I imagine that at some point during that period after he gained control, something really bad would happen and it would cause a fracture inside of him. Unknown would be born if that split and eventually take control of the body. He is a lot more twisted. He's let go of the part of him that has hope, and the only thing that he's holding onto is devastation and destruction.

Everything is everyone else's fault and they need to pay for it. His sole purpose is completing their Revenge. He has a one-track mind and there's no doubt about that. He doesn't know what he's even going to do once he gets his revenge. He hasn't even planned that far. You can see that in a lot of the Bad Endings on Seven's Route. He is very emotionally vulnerable and on a hairpin trigger that could be easily broken. In a way he's like Ray. He and Ray have a lot more in common than he and Suit Saeran do with that.

Unknown has fully committed himself to this system. Whereas, with Ray and Suit Saeran, the both of them are able to express to the MC in the game, but they have doubts and that they know that she's not right but they have no other choice. Yes, they are committed to it in a sense but that doesn't mean that they are completely and wholeheartedly consumed by the Cult. There is still a part of them that is seeking that individuality and fighting against the pain and what sounds wrong.

Unknown has given himself to this. He sees no other point and he sees no other purpose. He's been tortured and pushed around his entire life, and it's been blamed on V and Saeyoung. This is the only thing that he's able to focus on and it's the only thing that he knows. It's the only thing grounding him. Rika is right behind him and whispering these lies and manipulation into his ear every single day. She treats him the way that she treats all of them, like a dog chasing food on the end of a string. She says pretty words and has great ideas, but if you follow her, you're never going to get the treat at the end.

And with Unknown, you know that he's been gaslit and manipulated to a degree much more lengthy than what Ray and Saeran went through; he's been stuck in this place by himself with nobody to hold on to. That just didn't stop because he started listening to what she wanted. That continued on. So did her constant denial of giving him praise. He's constantly trying to do things for her and that will make her praise him, and she always avoids doing it. He's always Chasing the Sun but he's never going to be able to touch it.

With Rika, you know that she's trying to cope by saying that she's a better mother. She's so lost in everything that she's been through and all of this anger that she's holding onto, that she's masking everything that she's doing and living her lie to the fullest. It's her way or the highway. She wants to get her revenge and she wants to prove that she was always right. She wants to be able to look at the crumbled remains of RFA as they seemingly all join her side one by one, and leave V in the dust.

She wants him to be a million things all at once. Her expectations for him are beyond what anyone could ever be. She says if you do this or that, she'll praise you and you'll be the best. But in reality, you're never going to be good enough in her eyes. That is the reality that he has to face. It's one that he tries to deny because she's made him truly believe that she's the only person that he has left. Yet, she treats him so horribly and only gives him enough so that he doesn't have enough doubts to make a fight.

She is apathetic. It's been so long and he's been failing her consistently in the secret ending. He wasn't able to get the MC. He wasn't able to get the party guests or the plans. He wasn't able to make good on any of the promises that he said that he was going to do. She's angry at him and she does what she's always done, blame him for being too emotional and punish him with more cleansing ceremony is so he can become the person that she wants them to be.

But like I said, the problem with that is that he's never going to be what she wants him to be.

She gets impatient. She stops putting on a pretty and friendly face for him. It's because he's not getting her the results that she wants fast enough. It's because he's not living up to what she wants him to be. It's because she's not happy and no matter how much she tries to use him to get what she wants to be happy, she's never going to be happy.

She's in a completely different place at this point in her life than she was in Another Story. She's had a hell of a lot more time to ruminate and get angry about how she's not getting results. At some point, she gets bored and tired of not getting what she wants. She's got a throne and she's got all of this power, but it's not making her happy. V is never giving her the response that she wants whenever they interact, and this just keeps feeding back into it. Her unchecked trauma and inability to accept responsibility for her crimes all play into this. The shame and the guilt...

I really do think that she lost whatever shred of humanity that she had. If you want to say that she had any of it. She's really had more time to get herself into place with the Savior position. She starts to think that she did the right thing by what she did to Mother Choi. She starts to think that she was right about doing what she did to the boys. What she did to V.

All of the people around her are constantly likening her to a saint and telling her that everything that she's doing is perfect and correct. She becomes more and more desensitized to the violence that she is committing. She is personally involved with many of the cleansing ceremonies. She is constantly there with all of this violence and trickery.

These are things that affect your psyche.

At some point, everyone around her is just useful for her goals. She doesn't really care what happens to Saeran because she has no more patience for him. He's constantly questioning her and fighting her. He doesn't listen like Ray listened. He makes a point of pushing back and at some point she just decides that it would be easier to get rid of him if she has to do it. In a lot of the Bad Endings, he does not know what the trigger to the bomb does. She literally just tells him that it's going to do something that will hurt his brother so much.

And he believes everything that she says. In those endings, she gives him the trip to the bomb because she wants to clear up the loose end. If she gets rid of him, she can easily manipulate his brother to do what she wants and turn him against V. She can use that opening to get whatever she wants. Seven would never know. She would just change her tactics and manipulate the other brother. Because at this point in her life, all she cares about is getting back at V. She blames him for everything and wants to destroy him for it. Nothing else matters at that point. She has a one-track mind at that point.

And what's more disheartening is the fact that she thinks that she wants that, but there's something inside of her that doesn't want that. She's just as conflicted as the rest of them are. I think it should be very telling to anyone about what's going on in her head space just by telling you to look at how willing she is to throw him away in the secret ending. She was ready to just throw him into the basement to have him used and abused again. Even if his brother tries to defend him and offer himself up, she's still pretty much ready to throw Saeran away.

She screams at him because he doesn't listen. That's why she says that she should have took his brother instead. She's tired of him fighting her and not obeying her every order and being her little puppet. She stops caring about him as a son when she realizes that a son isn't going to be her cute little puppet.

[into-control]

submission:

tw: abuse, violence: I'm gonna sound a little dumb, but I think I've only just realized that my dad is abusive (?). like I always knew he was toxic and awful, but I never thought he was abusive because he rarely hits us, and also bc he's sometimes kind. like he's not awful all of the time, he can be funny and normal sometimes.

but like, here are some things my dad's done that make me think he's abusive:

- getting mad at a dog for *looking at him* and then running it over with his car

- is anti-semitic, very sexist, very homophobic, and racist

- if something doesn't go his way, he will throw a tantrum and break things, slam doors, throw things around, etc

- he always threatens to beat my teenage brother

- my little brother is only 8 years old, but if he ever does something wrong, my dad will get in his face and intimidate him and scare him. he never hits him, but he'll swear at him and say things like, "you watch what I'll do to you"

- he punched my mom in the nose once and gave her a nosebleed

- one time, I tried to skip school as a teenager, and he punched me in the head

- he had a dream that my mom cheated on him and tried to strangle her in her sleep before he realized it wasn't real. he tells this story like it's funny

- he always tells my mom that he'd kill her if she ever left him

- one of his best friends is a convicted rapist. there was no DNA evidence, so my dad insists his friend is innocent and gets angry if you even imply there's a possibility he's guilty. he visits him in prison every month.

- he's extremely fragile and sensitive. literally the epitome of toxic masculinity

- he thinks trump is "authentic" and "not like other politicians"

- he doesn't work at all. my mom works full-time. he forces my mom to give him half of her earnings, and he controls what she can spend… even though it's HER money

- he only ever spends ~his~ money on himself, but my mom has to pay most of the bills and for food and for everything we need

- he never helps around the house but will throw angry fits if the house isn't clean to his standards

- one time, he yelled at me and threatened to smash my face in just because I said a fictional man on TV that tried to murder a woman just because she talked back to him was "victimizing himself"

- another time, he thought I tried to run away from him, and he described in graphic detail how he would break every bone in my body and murder me if I ever tried that again

- one time, he yelled at me and threw a chair at me just because I was barefoot downstairs

- another time, he told me that if I ever embarrassed him, he would strangle me to death and then drown me

- he's insanely jealous and possessive and won't even let my mom speak to another man

- one time, a guy on our street intentionally blocked him in so that he couldn't get his car out of the driveway, so my dad got a hammer and started smashing his car up and screaming. my mom had to beg our neighbor not to press charges and my neighbor eventually agreed under the condition that my dad paid for the damage

- he goes out of his way to watch movies with "unhinged" male leads that torture and murder other people - usually women. and he gets some kind of sick pleasure out of watching these movies, like he grins and talks about how much he can relate to the guy onscreen and smiles during the murder scenes

- he's the biggest immature manbaby ever. I can't explain how childish he is

- he constantly victimizes himself. "I'm a product of society", "I'm only like this because no one loves me", "I have mental health issues, it's not my fault I get angry sometimes", "if you idiots actually listened to me for once, then I wouldn't have to get angry, would I?", "I had a terrible childhood, so now I'm a bit psycho, and you're going to have to deal with that", "you're lucky to have a dad like me, I could hit you and abuse you if I wanted to, but you're lucky I'm too soft for that"

- he treats my mom terribly. he's awful to her. it makes me so angry, she deserves so much better because she's such a kind person. she's always crying over him when he's not home, and we all have to comfort her

- he's just a cruel, obnoxious, childish, fragile bully

- he's the biggest hypocrite you can imagine

- he really hates my youngest sister. he doesn't really like me and my mom and my other sister, but he DESPISES my youngest sister. she's only 14 years old. he always yells at her and puts her down. one time, he tried to beat her with a belt, and my mom had to jump in between the two of them just before he was about to hit her

- and the absolute worst part: to most people outside, he's so nice and polite to them. so everyone's always telling us, "oh, you're so lucky to have a dad/husband like him, he's so much better than other men", "make sure you appreciate your dad, he's a really kind man". it drives me fucking insane. everybody is ALWAYS on his side, and they think he's perfect just because they don't know what he's like at home. this is why it's so hard for me to think he might be abusive, bc everyone's always going on about how wonderful he is. like you really start to feel gaslit by it and wonder if you're exaggerating

so what do you guys think? abusive? or like, close to abusive? or not abusive but just really awful? he's really convinced he's a good person. like he genuinely believes he's kind and polite and that he just gets angry sometimes, but he says he can't help that because of his "issues" from childhood. if we ever complain about his behavior, he gets angry and says he's such a nice dad and we don't appreciate him and that we have it easy compared to other households where kids get treated badly and beat

————

i can’t speak for people in abused households but i’m sorry anon your dad sounds like, super abusive. especially towards your mother, he’s the classic manipulative and controlling partner. and abuse doesn’t always come in physical form, threatening to essentially kill you even if he doesn’t follow through with it is classified as abuse. it’s also classic abuser to act like a perfect family man until he’s behind closed doors with his family.