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soul-dwelling · 2 years

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you think Okhubo is just incapable of doing a good story, or is it his vices that ruin it, and if he actually tried and took criticsm to hearth he could do something great? Like if he removed all the problematic and pandering aspects of his writting, could he archieve something great, or does he simply lack the "chops" for it without any fault of his own?

I’m going to end up rambling, so I’m going to divide up your question into parts and ramble about each.

(Spoiler warning for the endings to Soul Eater and Fire Force.)

“Do you think Ohkubo is just incapable of doing a good story?”

Having read an unofficial English translation of his final remarks in the last volume of Fire Force, and having looked at what turned out well in Soul Eater (both the manga and the anime), I do think he is capable of doing a good story–or, rather, that he has ideas for a good story. But I don’t think he has risen above what Soul Eater offered, because actually making that story work is the problem.

On some days I think Soul Eater is a great story; other days, I think it’s just a good story. And I don’t think Fire Force exceeded beyond Soul Eater. I think that message in the last volume of Fire Force and how the overall series turned out show he had a big idea in mind (meditations on religion and human imagination; how people feel about death–seeing people around them die or their own deaths). But I don’t think Fire Force reached the potential Ohkubo was going for–or, at least, I just disagree with how he tried to respond to those meditations (as I’ve whined before: he simultaneously treats religion as stupid and something rational people shouldn’t believe in–while also saying humans are stupid and need religion to keep going; he has death taken more seriously in Fire Force, but rather than continue to take it seriously, he does death cheats for the sake of thinking he’s showing off the power of human imagination–Shinra re-making the world, Arthur using video game logic against Dragon, that fucking awful Tamaki fight leading to a random Karen disappearing).

So, I’m stuck between one of two notions. It’s either that I just don’t like how Ohkubo handled his own messages, while having to acknowledge what good there was in artwork (even if I think Soul Eater was far more inventive in character designs, and even as I think a lot of the action in his works can be hard to follow) and what is creative in his works (but it’s hard to get impressed by the Arthur vs Dragon fight that Ohkubo’s annoying stans think is the best manga sequence of the late 2010s/early 2020s when it just comes across as a half-baked Scott Pilgrim ripoff). Or it’s that, whether I agree with his messages or not, Ohkubo just did not produce a good work. When his message just comes down to, “The power of imagination is what leads to religion, and religion is dumb, but people need religion to keep going,” it’s a silly message.

And I think it’s a message that I don’t think was sustained well by the series, thematically like a mess. We have firefighters here to emphasize the meditation on life and death, but we need religious elements forced into the story to also make this about religion, and I think the two are in such tension without helping each other. This should work: combining these disparate notions should make something that is iconic. It’s memorable–for the wrong reasons, as I associate so much disappointment with the series. But it’s not like Soul Eater where that Gorillaz-esque visual style is iconic. There’s not a panel that I think summarizes the series’ disparate elements: there’s not a panel that shows both firefighting and religion in one image that I think is a summation to the series, not like that one promotional image from the anime of Maka and Crona, both looking like they are under the influence of madness, that communicates one core element of the series, or the shadows formed by Maka, Black Star, and Kid in the anime’s first opening, showing madness or familial influence overshadowing them.

“Is it his vices that ruin it?”

I’m not even sure it’s his vices that ruin it, it’s what he does with those vices–and a lot of the problems aren’t vices, it’s him perving on underage fictional characters.

Not to defend vices in fiction, but fiction itself tackles topics that either are not always going to be appeal to a mainstream audience, or are not for polite company. Comics creator Ty Templeton talks about how a story can satisfy all of the Seven Deadly Sins; I don’t quite agree with all of Templeton’s argument, but of course you can write a story that has vices–sex, violence, etc–and have it be a good story. But what makes it “good”? If your goal is just to have a really sexy story, sure, you can do that: there are plenty of “plot, what plot?” smut fanfics that work. If your goal is to make a really violent story, sure, you can do that: there are enough action films and animated series that are just bloodfests. But to make something really good or great, you need there to be something significant.

This is the hang-up I have with the worst parts of Soul Eater and just about all of the ending arc of Fire Force: what is significant about dumb fanservice gags, what is significant about death being cheap and just here for the violence factor, if ultimately you aren’t saying anything through that use of sex and violence, and if you aren’t using them to move the plot forward in a meaningful way or a clever way or the best way to get that plot moving, and what is the point if it’s not only poorly done (not sexy, not really that violent) but actively distracting from the story (Black Star spying on Tsubaki at the end of the manga undermines getting anything significant out of their partnership), or undermining character progression (after all of her work to get stronger, Tamaki’s fight at the end reduces her role to only sex and leaves her in the ending of the series not helping her former team around the world–making her work to get stronger seem pointless because she’s just given up helping her team), or cheapening any feeling we get at the conclusion (why should I care about how bloody Arthur’s fight was if he’s just going to show up at the end completely healed?).

“If he actually tried and took criticism to heart, could he do something great?”

I’m going to be weaselly and not quite answer this question, and instead answer another set of questions.

I don’t think he needs to take criticism to heart. Everyone has criticism to offer. A creator can’t respond to every bit of criticism because, eventually, the criticism is mutually exclusive and you can’t respond to one piece of criticism without failing to respond to someone else’s criticism: “Add more action!” “No, take out action!”

But I do think he needs to take good criticism to heart, and that depends on the goal he has in mind. If his goal was to make a popular shonen series, he succeeded, so a lot of criticism I have to offer won’t help: I’m not in the age or national demographic for immediate sales of Fire Force to matter, especially when the final volume of Fire Force just outsold the most recent volumes sold of Jujutsu Kaisen and My Hero Academia.

But if his goal was to make a memorable series, I’m not convinced. I wish he had made a story that said something more significant to make the religious thread as memorable as what we have had in other popular works. I wish he had made a story that made discussions about sexual objectification, controlling your own body and how you want to be seen, and the problems with fanservice more memorable. I wish he had made fights that were easier to follow and more dynamic. I wish he had started with more memorable character designs (the Fire Force designs just don’t stand out like Soul Eater designs do–which has its pragmatic reasons, the Fire Force Companies being a uniformed organization that literally wears uniforms, while the DWMA pretty much allows any costume). I wish that there was a fight in Fire Force that was as memorable to me as the Crona versus Maka fight, or All Might versus the first Nomu, or an action beat as memorable as Luffy telling Sniper King to burn the World Government flag.

Rather than listening to criticism, then, I wish he had a better set of editors who were directing him to something better. Again, “better” is subjective, and I’m not in the demographic for his story. But I don’t see Fire Force lasting like other series do. I don’t see it still being memorable like Fullmetal Alchemist, Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball, or even stuff like Madoka, Cardcaptor Sakura, Soul Eater, and other popular but not “the big three” / “tentpole” manga out there. I think a better editor would have directed Ohkubo’s talents to something that stood out and got the kind of attention other breakthrough manga have: there’s a reason Spy x Family exploded in popularity (and sold just about as well as the final Fire Force volume) because it fills so many gaps (the right mix of comedy, action, and meme-able image reactions, with just enough “sexy” about Twilight and Yor and just enough blood and violence without going over the line to be something too family un-friendly).

“If he removed all the problematic and pandering aspects of his writing could he achieve something great?”

Yes.

Or, rather, if he took what was problematic, and made it something that, while problematic, is problematic because it lets you say something significant (you have to point out something problematic if you are going to respond to it, tear it down, or oppose it–you have to quote really awful language or show really horrible things to fight them), that would work.

And if he took what was pandering and used it to make us change our point of view, that would work.

For example, he pandered to the audience with the ridiculous “Fire Force was a prequel to Soul Eater all along” crap. What if he instead used Fire Force to change how we look at Soul Eater? He wouldn’t have to contradict what he said in Soul Eater, but he could show a new understanding of his earlier work, and maybe respond to problems in that work: “Isn’t it weird how in Soul Eater I didn’t take death as seriously, while in Fire Force I have?” By making Fire Force a prequel, it still feels to me like regression to the earlier Soul Eater thinking. It also has the world go from taking death too seriously until they feel despair, to now just not giving a shit about death, which is just swinging from one extreme to another. If he used that pandering fanservice to enrich Soul Eater, rather than contradict its messages, worldbuilding, and canon, that would be incredible.

There are numerous series and franchises that add something late in development that has you re-read or re-watch what came before and gain new appreciation for what came before, or helps explain something that didn’t work before, or finally gives attention to someone or a group of people overlooked: Doctor Who, Star Trek, the Marvel Cinematic Universe–all have done something, sometimes poorly but other times really well, that takes old canon and enriches it. I don’t get that from Fire Force–I get a series that threw a monkey wrench into what we thought we knew about Soul Eater, and rather than giving a satisfying answer, is disappointing compared to what our own headcanon told us.

“Does he simply lack the chops for it through no fault of his own?”

Ohkubo has shown he can draw and panel incredibly well. He has shown he can come up with such incredible characters with so much potential in their personalities, stories, motivations, and designs. He has shown an interest in complex ideas and a desire to try to figure them out. I think he has the chops; I just think his worst instincts (those vices) and a lack of guidance from an editor to direct those instincts towards something better (“take this vice, and use it this way to appeal to an audience without being gross, or take this vice, and use it to say something meaningful and not just cheap fanservice and pandering) has harmed what he could have accomplished. I think he recognizes complex ideas--but doesn't know how to explain them, or how to give satisfying or at least interesting answers to complex questions. I just don’t think Fire Force will ever be his masterpiece; a masterpiece should show all you learn and condense it to its essence, whereas I think Soul Eater synthesized all of his ideas and potential more clearly.

#dwells whines about fire force #long post #spoiler #spoilers

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maguro13-2 · 4 months

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What happened to Kobayashi after the Incident?

Tohru : Kobayashi-san! You forgot your lu-woah! Woah! We forgot our clothes on!

Kobayashi-san : Forget about clothes. We're practically fine without them.

Tohru : What I'm telling you about that is that--[whispers into her Kobayashi] We're being watched!

Kobayashi-san : Oh, genius! You're right about that! I forgot that this office dress code is a scam! I wished that the humans would forget about seeing us as Exhibitionists while we're nudists with no clothes!

Cosmo : You got it!

*MAGICALLY POOF!*

Kobayashi-san : Ha, that's better. Now what were you were saying?

Tohru : So what is that I'm trying to really tell you is that...[Whispers] About something to the Kyoani incident!

Kobayashi-san : Tohru, outside, now!

(scene flips)

Tohru : Okay, now that we're outside as Nudists in public places and we got something for us girls, we can have our selves nudist style. Can we talk about the incident of what happened to Kyoani in that accident?

Kobayashi-San : (sighs) You wanna know what really happened? It was the summer in 2019. It was a happy day for Kyoani and we're glad that Violet Ever garden would be getting a movie of her own, everything was great, until one criminal came, he said that the studio stole his manga, but no we did no such thing so we decided to back him of and he still keeps telling us that we stole it. But I believe the manga he was talking about, was Fire Force. And do you know why Fire Force existed in the first place?

Tohru : Well, I'd say that it is actually a prequel to that Soul World manga from before in the 2000s.

Kobayashi-san : Exactly! So when I was on my way to Kyoto, I just realized that had a planned to start the most dangerous thing of all for terrorism, arson. Now, despite the less security that the studio had to offer, Fire Force was there to see Kyoani too see if Violet Evergarden was able to see her movie in production and to make it to the big screen for real.

Tohru : So? Then what happened?

Kobayashi-san : Then the man named Shinji not Ikari Aoba, decides to burn Kyoani and Fire Force stopped him! And what happened when I arrived? I see Kyoani gulfed In flames and then Fire Force proclaimed that Violet Evergarden's movie has been delayed, the pain and loss is so powerful every character who worked for Kyoani grieved in despair and I was in it too! My business partners turned on me, I loose socks and shoes, I loose car that force me to walk to work, and we were forced to live without any clothes and become nudists for life! I can't get a second season because of the pain, loss, and despair as well for myself! IT'S ALL THANKS TO SHINRA AND HIS STUPID INFLUENCE THAT GIVE PEOPLE THE CRAZIES! [yelling furiously+rumbling] *breathes deeply* Now that I lost my iconic business clothing and forced myself to live in the nude, I have no choice but to make me an Exhibitionist again.

Tohru : Hey, look. Humanity wasn't like this when criminal activities are on a global scale. Humanity may be an arrogant species, but they were wrong to do that for their selves and others, we always pay the price for humanity's crime against business and entertainment! Arson is not the tool of destroying business, but some people might do that to nature and stuff.

Kobayashi-san : Of course. Individuals like us were always that stupid and smarth at the same time. Some morons can't do anything right for their selves. Just forget at least Kyoani's younger sister, Kyoani #2 has made us second season and is doing Violet Evergarden's movie. So you got anything for Fire Force?

Tohru : That's great news to hear, but do you think that Jojo's studio would give them a third season?

Kobayashi-San : *rumbling* [ yells in frustration]

#miss kobayashi's dragon maid #kobayashi san chi no maid dragon #fire force #tohru #Kobayashi-san #kyoto animation #kyoani #dark comedy #dark humor #tragedy #crossover #funny

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