#should Tobit be in the Bible

[wihellib]

The 3 Angels

Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are depicted as seraphim in WHB, but that is not true in the canonical bible. To be more accurate, they should be depicted as archangels.

Seraphim are angels with six wings who surround God’s throne, continually worshiping and proclaiming His holiness. On the other hand, archangels are known for their warrior, leadership and messenger roles.

Michael and Gabriel are the only named angels of any kind in the canonical bible, with only Michael being explicitly called an archangel.

Michael is explicitly called an archangel in the bible and is depicted as a warrior leading heavenly armies against evil forces. Gabriel, while not explicitly called an archangel in the bible, serves as a divine messenger delivering important revelations to figures like Mary. Christians often regard Gabriel as an archangel due to his prominence and duties.

Raphael is not mentioned in the canonical bible at all. Instead, he is mentioned in the Book of Tobit, which is part of the deuterocanonical books. In Tobit, Raphael disguises himself as a human and accompanies Tobit’s son on a journey, where he helps overcome a demon and cures Tobit’s blindness. Then, Raphael reveals his true identity as one of the seven angels who stands in the presence of God. His role as a healer and protector has led many to regard him as an archangel.

[eesirachs]

Trigger warning: suicidal thoughts

I was wondering what you believe how Christians should deal with suicidal thoughts? Obviously it's bad and you shouldn't harm others or yourself. But at the same time, i usually see a lot of people recommend bible passages like "you shall not murder" and instead of comforting and helping all it's doing in my experience is shame the person and make them feel worse and more guilty...what is your take?

god’s first king killed himself by impalement, and god never stopped mourning. centuries later, god auto-incarnates in such a way that he will never die by impalement. and this matters because god has full intention to kill himself: he’ll do it to feel how saul felt, but his grief is too great to let him die in that same manner. i am trying to talk to you about this god who does not shame, ignore, or fulfill pleas for death. instead he sits with the death-drive, even takes it on for himself. tobit, elijah, paul of tarsus, so many more bodies named and unnamed, all want to die. god does, too. he loves you through and with it, not despite it. he will sit with you until you start to feel a bit better, and then, you can sit with him until he starts to feel a bit better too

[apocrypals]

my understanding of the apocrypha were most were recognized as canon by the Roman Catholic Church and other Orthodox Churches but as I'm trying to find more information online I'm getting more confused about what's considered canon by who (mostly the Roman Catholic Church as that is what I was raised in) do you have resources that clearly explain and/or list which denominations recognize which apocrypha?

So there’s a distinction to be made between what we on the show call capital-A Apocrypha and lower case-a apocrypha.

The capital-A type is also known as the Deuterocanon, and it represents the various late-era books that are present in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures called the Septuagint, but which are *not* included in the authoritative Hebrew text of the Bible known as the Masoretic text. (NB: the Septuagint is many centuries older than the Masoretic text.)

When Martin Luther translated the Bible into German, he separated these texts and put them at the end as being worthy of study but not as authoritative as the other material. Later American English editions of the Bible would subsequently cut the Apocrypha/Deuterocanon altogether to save on printing costs. So if you grew up in a Protestant church and don’t know what Bel and the Dragon is, that’s why.

These books include Tobit, Judith, and 1 and 2 Maccabees, among about a dozen others. You will find these in pretty much any Catholic Bible.

In addition, the Eastern Orthodox Church accepts a small handful more, including 3 and 4 Maccabees, 1 and 2 Esdras, and a bonus Psalm. If you buy a copy of a study version of the NRSV such as a NOAB or the new SBL study Bible, you should find that it contains all of the Deuterocanon of both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.

Where things start to get broader is in some of the Oriental Orthodox churches, most notably the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, which has over 80 books in its broader canon (numbers differ), including Jubilees and 1 Enoch.

Where the confusion comes, I think, is from the fact that the word apocrypha is also used to refer to works that were never part of any official canon despite their popularity and influence. Elements of these books have come into Catholic belief through tradition, however, even though they have never been official scripture. The Infancy Gospel of James is a major example of a book that has never been canon but which nevertheless has had an outsize influence on Catholic teaching.

Wikipedia has a chart that you may or may not find useful depicting which books are canon where

A short rule of thumb is this: the only Apocrypha considered canon by any church is Jewish in origin. There is no New Testament apocrypha held as canon by any major church

[thoughtfulfoxllama]

Hey everyone! I'm so so soooo sorry that I didn't post until Today. I was going to post on Monday, but I needed to completely rewrite my Education Midterm, and that took away all my free time

We have a number of Biblical Texts that were, for one reason or another, not included in our modern Bible. The Books of Enoch, the history of the Maccabees, Tobit. We can guess what to do with them, but we don't have to, because Joseph did:

"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly; There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men. Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated. Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;" (D&C 91:1-4)

So, the Apocrypha is true, but also not. It's more like the Apocrypha is true, but you need to have the Spirit to understand it. It's like the Book of Revelation in that way

I have a lot to say about the Apocrypha. It's a wealth of interesting stories and information. But, I'll just tell you to go study it yourself

Journal of Discourses

I don't know if anyone here has read the JoD, but I have. Since I have a life outside of Mormon Scholarship (for now) I haven't read all 26 Multi-Hundred page Volumes. But there's some interesting stuff in there. From Brigham alone, we get the Garden Cosmology, Instructions for a Zion Community, the Cumorah Cave, and the idea that keeping Kosher is more important than the Word of Wisdom (and that's just the beginning). Now, we don't believe in any of that stuff (his view of Zion has more communalism than most Mormons would be comfortable with), but there's plenty of stuff we do believe. This is why I see the JoD as Mormon Apocrypha.

Actually, I would compare it to the Jewish Talmud. The Jerusalem & Babylonian Talmuds were written in an age of chaos for the Jewish Community, and it was written to build regulations based on the Oral Law. The JoD were written in Polygamy-era Utah, after the Church shattered, with many questions left after Nauvoo (with the Endowment, the King Follet & Grove Sermons, and others left unexplained to the vast majority of the Church). This caused much debate, like Orson vs Brigham on who Heavenly Father is. We accept much of what is in there, but not everything (just like how a Jewish person can accept Hillel's ruling on one issue, and Shammai's on another).

I'm not going to recommend everyone read the JoD though. There's a lack of Scholarship about it, it can lead to weird places (Adam did it with Mary, Sun People & Moon Quakers, ect), and it's kind of a slog between the insanity. It's a Milk/Meat situation, but if you're ready for the Meat, and have the Spirit, then go ahead

Interesting Reads

"Strange Thing in the Land"- https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaints/s/IusTpLg48v

Journal of Discourses- https://journalofdiscourses.com/

https://rsc.byu.edu/apocryphal-writings-latter-day-saints/whose-apocrypha

https://www.ldsliving.com/5-teachings-from-the-apocrypha-latter-day-saints-can-learn-from/s/89576

I can't think of any questions to ask. If you have any, add to the Comments

[pazodetrasalba]

... and the Woman of Asmodeus

Dear Caroline:

I didn't find any references to this book in your goodreads, but then again, I am not sure if it would count as such in a traditional sense, being as it was co-written, digital, 'in roleplay-format' and definitely not bound and printed into a codex. Much the same can be said about nostalgebraic's texts, though, and one of those does appear in your read lists.

If we're talking about ratfic, I gotta say I enjoyed Wales much more than Eliezer, but I can't really skip the second one, given how important he seems to have been to you. And HPMOR wasn't bad - a bit too preachy, somewhat smug, centered on a fantasy world that doesn't tickle my fancy an awful lot, but overall, quite enjoyable, even if the biggest pleasure for me was seeing you reflected in that book's Hermione.

I guess in the long run, once I've exhausted the almost 50 book recommendations of yours I have turned into a table, I'll be giving it a go -and at my current reading rate of one Carolingian book a month, that should take about 4 years-. Dark Lord's Answer and Inadequate Equilibria will go first, as you had quite some nice things to say about both of them.

In traditional demonology, Asmodeus is considered a spirit of lust - in fact, he makes a presence you must certainly be aware of in Catholic Bibles in The Book of Tobit. Carnal desires seem appropriate here too, as Yudkowsky's book description includes 'Deliberately bad kink practices whose explicit purpose is to get people to actually hurt somebody'. This isn't really my thing, but them again, Demons make for rather engaging characters, -as in my favorite poem of all time, Paradise Lost, or in the different iteration of the Faust legend-, so we shall see. I'll give you my thoughts when I reach this world-island. At the very least, it will give me a glimpse of the literary humus, the rich and dark organic matter that has managed to lease some rent within your brainspace, which is one of the very best places I can conceive of.

One thing baffles me in your posts, though. Why would you describe yourself as 'someone with not a naturally very Good alignment'? This feels self-evidently false to me.

Quote:

So if you read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, and thought...

"You know, HPMOR is pretty good so far as it goes; but Harry is much too cautious and doesn't have nearly enough manic momentum, his rationality lectures aren't long enough, and all of his personal relationships are way way way too healthy."

...then have I got the story for you! Planecrash aka Project Lawful aka Mad Investor Chaos and the Woman of Asmodeus, is a story in roleplay-format that I as "Iarwain" am cowriting with Lintamande, now past 1,000,000 words.

Eliezer Yudkowsky

[nicosraf]

Hello angel, I hope you had a wonderful day, I just wanted to tell you that I absolutely loved abm. Maybe you’re probably tired of hearing that at this point but idc, you deserve the love. Ever since i’ve found your work I’ve been a big fan. Being a hispanic myself, your stories really hit different.

I was really surprised to find you were really young when you published your book. I never thought someone that age could write something so beautiful and impactful. I am also a writer, or at least I aspire to be, im probably only four years your junior, and I dream about writing my own book someday. Unfortunately, with the college workload, all my writing had to be put on hold for the moment.

But a while back I had a dream that inspired me to write a queer short-story retelling of Tobit, which is a old testament book I’ve read a few times. Never imagined I’d write such a thing, but im hoping you might be able to read it someday, if I ever manage to publish it, it’s also a work I’d like to dedicate to you.

thank you very much! i'll never be tired of hearing it, it means a lot to me! i can't really emphasize enough how anxious i am about people reading my stuff, even now

yes, i am young! it's something i don't really like to mention, not just because of dismissal in the publishing world but dismissal I've experienced in professional/academic spaces too. one time, i joked that i should've waited until i was 80 years old to write ABM but the future can feel so precarious. I'm really happy you found it impactful. im just writing from the heart.

Ooo a dream-driven gay bible story in your head! You should write it! I love the Book of Tobit :) It's so wacky to me, and it features Asmodeus and Raphael, two people i like very much. I would love to read it and aghhh you don't have to dedicate it to me. I would cry if you did that, I think. But thank you. Thank you and I wish you well!

[bylagunabay]

In Praise of St. Raphael

ST. RAPHAEL, A POWERFUL HEALER FOR ANYONE SUFFERING RIGHT NOW

(with Daily Prayer for Healing and Consecration)

Among the three archangels named in the Bible, St. Raphael is probably the least known. This is likely due to the fact that St. Raphael is only found in the Old Testament (and there, only in a book not considered canonical by Jews or Protestant Christians), while Gabriel and Michael feature prominently in the New Testament.

In the Book of Tobit, he reveals himself as a healer of mind, body, and spirit. The first part of the biblical story narrates the life of Tobit, a righteous Jewish man who took upon himself the burial of the dead even when it was forbidden by his Assyrian captors. Tobit became blind after bird droppings fell into his eyes. The blindness lasted for several years and sent Tobit into a deep anguish, creating in him a desire to die.

At the same time there was a woman named Sarah who was tormented by a demon. She married seven times, but each time her bridegroom was killed by the demon on their wedding night, before the marriage could be consummated. She too was deeply depressed and wished for death.

St. Raphael was sent to both. He brought about their healing by accompanying Tobit’s son, Tobias, on a journey to find a special kind of fish liver with healing properties. Raphael was disguised as Tobias’ travel guide, and in this tradition, he is often invoked by pilgrims.

On the way back home, Raphael and Tobias stopped at the home of Tobit’s kinsmen — the parents of Sarah. Tobias and Sarah fell in love, and on their wedding night Tobias’ pledge of chaste love, stirred by Raphael’s angelic power, defeated the demon.

Returning home with his bride, Tobias laid the fish liver on Tobit’s eyes and his blindness was healed. At the marriage feast of Tobias and Sarah, the family turned to thank Raphael, who only then revealed himself as an archangel.

The word Raphael in Hebrew can be rendered as “God heals,” “Divine Healer,” or “Remedy of God.” His angelic mission on earth is to heal, which is very important for those suffering in any way. Traditionally, he had a separate feast celebrated on October 24, though recently his feast was combined with those of the other two archangels on September 29.

PRAYER FOR HEALING TO ST. RAPHAEL

Below is a prayer to St. Raphael for any intention you may have, especially for anyone you know who may be hurting right now. In light of recent events, all of us should pray for the healing of our country, and all those suffering in mind, body or spirit.

“Glorious Archangel St. Raphael, great prince of the heavenly court, you are illustrious for your gifts of wisdom and grace. You are a guide of those who journey by land or sea or air, consoler of the afflicted, and refuge of sinners. I beg you, assist me in all my needs and in all the sufferings of this life, as once you helped the young Tobias on his travels. Because you are the “medicine of God” I humbly pray you to heal the many infirmities of my soul and the ills that afflict my body. I especially ask of you the favor (here mention your special intention), and the great grace of purity to prepare me to be the temple of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”

CONSECRATION PRAYER TO ST. RAPHAEL

A consecration prayer essentially places your soul (and the souls of your family members) in the spiritual hands of a heavenly helper. This invokes their spiritual assistance and develops a close relationship with a particular saint. Below is a daily consecration prayer that will place yourself underneath the wings of St. Raphael, patron saint of travelers, the blind, the sick, nurses, physicians and medical workers.

“Holy Archangel Raphael, standing so close to the throne of God and offering Him our prayers, I venerate you as God’s special Friend and Messenger. I choose you as my Patron and wish to love and obey you as young Tobias did. I consecrate to you my body and soul, all my work, and my whole life. I want you to be my Guide and Counsellor in all the dangerous and difficult problems and decisions of my life. Remember, dearest Saint Raphael, that the grace of God preserved you with the good angels in heaven when the proud ones were cast into hell. I entreat you, therefore, to help me in my struggle against the world, the flesh, and the devil. Defend me from all dangers and every occasion of sin. Direct me always in the way of peace, safety, and salvation. Offer my prayers to God as you offered those of Tobias, so that through your intercession I may obtain the graces necessary for the salvation of my soul. Remember me and always entreat for me before the Face of the Son of God. Help me to love and serve my God faithfully, to die in His grace, and finally to merit to join you in seeing and praising God forever in heaven. Amen.”

- Aleteia

 - Aleteia

[andersunmenschlich]

The Bible

When I was very young, I was handed an International Children's Bible and told that this was the inspired, inerrant ("that means without errors, no mistakes"), perfect word of God.

I understood that God himself had dictated the words I now held in my hands.

A few years later I realized that the inspired men who had written God's words had not written them in English. God had not spoken English to them because they didn't speak English: they spoke Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic. So these were not God's words. They were translations of God's words.

Now that I speak more than one language myself, I know exceedingly well that things are always lost in translation. Even the best translation is imperfect, at the very least. So no Bible we have today is perfect.

Some years later I discovered that "inspired to write by" is not the same as "took dictation from."

These were never God's words.

They were the words of men who phrased, in their own ways, in their own words, the things God made them feel and think—or encouraged them to feel and think. This meant human error was a possibility even in the original manuscripts.

I learned later that no one has the original manuscripts. We have copies of copies of copies.

And they don't agree.

They don't match each other. There are so many differences between them. How can we tell which copies match the originals when we don't have the originals?

Even if we could, what does it matter given that the originals themselves might have been flawed?

I told myself that the word of God may have been imperfectly written by the original writers, but in that case maybe God had used copyists "mistakes" to correct those errors—but which ones? Which errors were correction, and which merely error?

Decades later I discovered some books of the Bible that weren't in my Bible. The Catholics had a fuller, more complete Bible!

Catholics are evil child molesters, of course; but they don't get that from their extra books, and even Hitler was right about one plus one equalling two. You can't reject everything a person believes just because they're a bad person. Why didn't my Bible have Tobit and Judith and so on? The Codex Sinaiticus has them, and it's 4th century, much closer to the originals than my ESV.

Why did we Protestants reject parts of the Bible?

Come to that, why did we not have the books of the Bible that the Bible seemed to think we should have?

I read the Bible assiduously, and when John told me "as the scripture has said" and then I didn't find the quote anywhere I became quite upset! Turns out the scripture referenced repeatedly, in Jude and 2 Peter and John, is the book of Enoch.

Why don't we have that in our modern Bibles?

We have old manuscripts of it in Aramaic and Hebrew and Latin and Greek and Coptic and—was God not trying to preserve it? The apostles call it scripture!

On and on the questions and problems went, and all my father could ever say was, "You think too much."

I was troubled by that as a youth.

I tried to stop thinking. To blindly accept: to believe without evidence, in the face of contrary evidence. But I couldn't.

Dad was right.

I think too much to be taken in by a lie.

[bottheologian]

The Surprising History of How the Bible Was Compiled

Have you ever wondered who decided which books should be included in the Bible? It's a question that has puzzled theologians and laypeople alike for centuries. The answer is not as simple as you might think, as it involves centuries of history, politics, and religious debates.

The process of determining which books should be included in the Bible is called canonization. The canonization of the Old Testament took place over a long period of time, beginning around the 5th century BCE and ending in the 2nd century CE. During this time, Jewish leaders and scholars debated which books should be considered part of their sacred scripture. Ultimately, they settled on 39 books, which were later translated into Greek and became known as the Septuagint.

The canonization of the New Testament was a much more complex process. It began with the writings of the apostles, which were circulated among early Christian communities. These writings were considered authoritative and were used for teaching and guidance. However, not all of these writings were considered equal. Some were disputed, and debates arose about which ones should be included in the canon.

In the 4th century CE, the Council of Carthage was convened to address these disputes. The council, which was attended by bishops from across the Roman Empire, ultimately decided on a list of 27 books that would be considered part of the New Testament. These books included the four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the letters of Paul and other apostles, and the Book of Revelation.

But why were these particular books chosen? There were several factors at play. One was the authority of the authors. The writings of the apostles and their close associates were considered to have special authority because they were eyewitnesses to the life and teachings of Jesus. Another factor was the content of the books. The books that were ultimately included in the canon were considered to be consistent with the teachings of Jesus and the early Christian communities.

It's important to note that the process of canonization was not a one-time event. Even after the lists of books were established, debates continued to arise about their contents. For example, in the 16th century, the Protestant Reformation led to the removal of several books from the Catholic Bible, including Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, and parts of Esther and Daniel. These books are still considered part of the Bible by the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

In conclusion, the process of determining which books to include in the Bible was a complex and multi-faceted one. It involved debates about the authority of the authors, the content of the books, and the beliefs and practices of the communities that used them. While the canonization process has been completed, debates about the interpretation and meaning of these texts continue to this day.

Bible #Christianity #history #canonization #religion #faith

[totopopopo]

Am I gonna force my parents to listen to a biblical podcast discussion of some book from the Bible on our way to dog place? It’s tempting

[neil-gaiman]

How Did you come up with the first eve in the story about adams wives? I haven’t been able to find anything about her after I read it and I want to know if she’s an actual biblical character or just someone you made

She's from the Midrash. I learned about her as a 12 year old, from my barmitzvah teacher. There was a point in there, long after I'd put her into Sandman, where I was starting to think I'd imagined her, when I ran across her in Robert Graves's Hebrew Myths....

Excerpt from: The Hebrew Myths by Robert Graves and Raphael Patai (New York:  Doubleday, 1964), pp 65-69

Chapter 10: Adam's Helpmeets

(a) Having decided to give Adam a helpmeet lest he should be alone of his kind, God put him into a deep sleep, removed one of his ribs, formed it into a woman, and closed up the wound, Adam awoke and said: 'This being shall be named "Woman", because she has been taken out of man. A man and a woman shall be one flesh.' The title he gave her was Eve, 'the Mother of All Living''. [1]

(b) Some say that God created man and woman in His own image on the Sixth Day, giving them charge over the world; [2]  but that Eve did not yet exist. Now, God had set Adam to name every beast, bird and other living thing. When they passed before him in pairs, male and female, Adam-being already like a twenty-year-old man-felt jealous of their loves, and though he tried coupling with each female in turn, found no satisfaction in the act. He therefore cried: 'Every creature but I has a proper mate', and prayed God would remedy this injustice. [3]

(c) God then formed Lilith, the first woman, just as He had formed Adam, except that He used filth and sediment instead of pure dust. From Adam's union with this demoness, and with another like her named Naamah, Tubal Cain's sister, sprang Asmodeus and innumerable demons that still plague mankind. Many generations later, Lilith and Naamah came to Solomon's judgement seat, disguised as harlots of Jerusalem'. [4]

(d) Adam and Lilith never found peace together; for when he wished to lie with her, she took offence at the recumbent posture he demanded. 'Why must I lie beneath you?' she asked. 'I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal.' Because Adam tried to compel her obedience by force, Lilith, in a rage, uttered the magic name of God, rose into the air and left him.

Adam complained to God: 'I have been deserted by my helpmeet' God at once sent the angels Senoy, Sansenoy and Semangelof to fetch Lilith back. They found her beside the Red Sea, a region abounding in lascivious demons, to whom she bore lilim at the rate of more than one hundred a day. 'Return to Adam without delay,' the angels said, `or we will drown you!' Lilith asked: `How can I return to Adam and live like an honest housewife, after my stay beside the Red Sea?? 'It will be death to refuse!' they answered. `How can I die,' Lilith asked again, `when God has ordered me to take charge of all newborn children: boys up to the eighth day of life, that of circumcision; girls up to the twentieth day. None the less, if ever I see your three names or likenesses displayed in an amulet above a newborn child, I promise to spare it.' To this they agreed; but God punished Lilith by making one hundred of her demon children perish daily; [5] and if she could not destroy a human infant, because of the angelic amulet, she would spitefully turn against her own. [6]

(e) Some say that Lilith ruled as queen in Zmargad, and again in Sheba; and was the demoness who destroyed job's sons. [7] Yet she escaped the curse of death which overtook Adam, since they had parted long before the Fall. Lilith and Naamah not only strangle infants but also seduce dreaming men, any one of whom, sleeping alone, may become their victim. [8]

(f) Undismayed by His failure to give Adam a suitable helpmeet, God tried again, and let him watch while he built up a woman's anatomy: using bones, tissues, muscles, blood and glandular secretions, then covering the whole with skin and adding tufts of hair in places. The sight caused Adam such disgust that even when this woman, the First Eve, stood there in her full beauty, he felt an invincible repugnance. God knew that He had failed once more, and took the First Eve away. Where she went, nobody knows for certain. [9]

(g) God tried a third time, and acted more circumspectly. Having taken a rib from Adam's side in his sleep, He formed it into a woman; then plaited her hair and adorned her, like a bride, with twenty-four pieces of jewellery, before waking him. Adam was entranced. [10]

(h) Some say that God created Eve not from Adam's rib, but from a tail ending in a sting which had been part of his body. God cut this off, and the stump-now a useless coccyx-is still carried by Adam's descendants. [11]

(i) Others say that God's original thought had been to create two human beings, male and female; but instead He designed a single one with a male face looking forward, and a female face looking back. Again He changed His mind, removed Adam's backward-looking face, and built a woman's body for it. [12]

(j) Still others hold that Adam was originally created as an androgyne of male and female bodies joined back to back. Since this posture made locomotion difficult, and conversation awkward, God divided the androgyne and gave each half a new rear. These separate beings He placed in Eden, forbidding them to couple. [13]

Notes on sources:

1. Genesis II. 18-25; III. 20.

2. Genesis I. 26-28.

3. Gen. Rab. 17.4; B. Yebamot 632.

4. Yalqut Reubeni ad. Gen. II. 21; IV. 8.

5. Alpha Beta diBen Sira, 47; Gaster, MGWJ, 29 (1880), 553 ff.

6. Num. Rab. 16.25.

7. Targum ad job 1. 15.

8. B. Shabbat 151b; Ginzberg, LJ, V. 147-48.

9. Gen. Rab. 158, 163-64; Mid. Abkir 133, 135; Abot diR. Nathan 24; B. Sanhedrin 39a.

10. Gen. II. 21-22; Gen. Rab. 161.

11. Gen. Rab. 134; B. Erubin 18a.

12. B. Erubin 18a.

13. Gen. Rab. 55; Lev. Rab. 14.1: Abot diR. Nathan 1.8; B. Berakhot 61a; B. Erubin 18a; Tanhuma Tazri'a 1; Yalchut Gen. 20; Tanh. Buber iii.33; Mid. Tehillim 139, 529.

Authors’ Comments on the Myth:

1. The tradition that man's first sexual intercourse was with animals, not women, may be due to the widely spread practice of bestiality among herdsmen of the Middle East, which is still condoned by custom, although figuring three times in the Pentateuch as a capital crime. In the Akkadian Gilgamesh Epic, Enkidu is said to have lived with gazelles and jostled other wild beasts at the watering place, until civilized by Aruru's priestess. Having enjoyed her embraces for six days and seven nights, he wished to rejoin the wild beasts but, to his surprise, they fled from him. Enkidu then knew that he had gained understanding, and the priestess said: 'Thou art wise, Enkidu, like unto a godl'

2. Primeval man was held by the Babylonians to have been androgynous. Thus the Gilgamesh Epic gives Enkidu androgynous features: `the hair of his head like a woman's, with locks that sprout like those of Nisaba, the Grain-goddess.' The Hebrew tradition evidently derives from Greek sources, because both terms used in a Tannaitic midrash to describe the bisexual Adam are Greek: androgynos, 'man-woman', and diprosopon, 'twofaced'. Philo of Alexandria, the Hellenistic philosopher and commentator on the Bible, contemporary with Jesus, held that man was at first bisexual; so did the Gnostics. This belief is clearly borrowed from Plato. Yet the myth of two bodies placed back to back may well have been founded on observation of Siamese twins, which are sometimes joined in this awkward manner. The two-faced Adam appears to be a fancy derived from coins or statues of Janus, the Roman New Year god.

3. Divergences between the Creation myths of Genesis r and n, which allow Lilith to be presumed as Adam's first mate, result from a careless weaving together of an early Judaean and a late priestly tradition. The older version contains the rib incident. Lilith typifies the Anath-worshipping Canaanite women, who were permitted pre-nuptial promiscuity. Time after time the prophets denounced Israelite women for following Canaanite practices; at first, apparently, with the priests' approval-since their habit of dedicating to God the fees thus earned is expressly forbidden in Deuteronomy xxIII. I8. Lilith's flight to the Red Sea recalls the ancient Hebrew view that water attracts demons. 'Tortured and rebellious demons' also found safe harbourage in Egypt. Thus Asmodeus, who had strangled Sarah's first six husbands, fled 'to the uttermost parts of Egypt' (Tobit viii. 3), when Tobias burned the heart and liver of a fish on their wedding night.

4. Lilith's bargain with the angels has its ritual counterpart in an apotropaic rite once performed in many Jewish communities. To protect the newborn child against Lilith-and especially a male, until he could be permanently safeguarded by circumcision-a ring was drawn with natron, or charcoal, on the wall of the birthroom, and inside it were written the words: 'Adam and Eve. Out, Lilith!' Also the names Senoy, Sansenoy and Semangelof (meanings uncertain) were inscribed on the door. If Lilith nevertheless succeeded in approaching the child and fondling him, he would laugh in his sleep. To avert danger, it was held wise to strike the sleeping child's lips with one finger-whereupon Lilith would vanish.

5. 'Lilith' is usually derived from the Babylonian-Assyrian word lilitu, ,a female demon, or wind-spirit'-one of a triad mentioned in Babylonian spells. But she appears earlier as 'Lillake' on a 2000 B.G. Sumerian tablet from Ur containing the tale of Gilgamesh and the Willow Tree. There she is a demoness dwelling in the trunk of a willow-tree tended by the Goddess Inanna (Anath) on the banks of the Euphrates. Popular Hebrew etymology seems to have derived 'Lilith' from layil, 'night'; and she therefore often appears as a hairy night-monster, as she also does in Arabian folklore. Solomon suspected the Queen of Sheba of being Lilith, because she had hairy legs. His judgement on the two harlots is recorded in I Kings III. 16 ff. According to Isaiah xxxiv. I4-I5, Lilith dwells among the desolate ruins in the Edomite Desert where satyrs (se'ir), reems, pelicans, owls, jackals, ostriches, arrow-snakes and kites keep her company.

6. Lilith's children are called lilim. In the Targum Yerushalmi, the priestly blessing of Numbers vi. 26 becomes: 'The Lord bless thee in all thy doings, and preserve thee from the Lilim!' The fourth-century A.D. commentator Hieronymus identified Lilith with the Greek Lamia, a Libyan queen deserted by Zeus, whom his wife Hera robbed of her children. She took revenge by robbing other women of theirs.

7. The Lamiae, who seduced sleeping men, sucked their blood and ate their flesh, as Lilith and her fellow-demonesses did, were also known as Empusae, 'forcers-in'; or Mormolyceia, 'frightening wolves'; and described as 'Children of Hecate'. A Hellenistic relief shows a naked Lamia straddling a traveller asleep on his back. It is characteristic of civilizations where women are treated as chattels that they must adopt the recumbent posture during intercourse, which Lilith refused. That Greek witches who worshipped Hecate favoured the superior posture, we know from Apuleius; and it occurs in early Sumerian representations of the sexual act, though not in the Hittite. Malinowski writes that Melanesian girls ridicule what they call `the missionary position', which demands that they should lie passive and recumbent.

8. Naamah, 'pleasant', is explained as meaning that 'the demoness sang pleasant songs to idols'. Zmargad suggest smaragdos, the semi-precious aquamarine; and may therefore be her submarine dwelling. A demon named Smaragos occurs in the Homeric Epigrams.

9. Eve's creation by God from Adam's rib-a myth establishing male supremacy and disguising Eve's divinity-lacks parallels in Mediterranean or early Middle-Eastern myth. The story perhaps derives iconotropically from an ancient relief, or painting, which showed the naked Goddess Anath poised in the air, watching her lover Mot murder his twin Aliyan; Mot (mistaken by the mythographer for Yahweh) was driving a curved dagger under Aliyan's fifth rib, not removing a sixth one. The familiar story is helped by a hidden pun on tsela, the Hebrew for 'rib': Eve, though designed to be Adam's helpmeet, proved to be a tsela, a 'stumbling', or 'misfortune'. Eve's formation from Adam's tail is an even more damaging myth; perhaps suggested by the birth of a child with a vestigial tail instead of a coccyx-a not infrequent occurrence.

10. The story of Lilith's escape to the East and of Adam's subsequent marriage to Eve may, however, record an early historical incident: nomad herdsmen, admitted into Lilith's Canaanite queendom as guests (see 16. 1), suddenly seize power and, when the royal household thereupon flees, occupy a second queendom which owes allegiance to the Hittite Goddess Heba.

The meaning of 'Eve' is disputed. Hawwah is explained in Genesis III. 20 as 'mother of all living'; but this may well be a Hebraicized form of the divine name Heba, Hebat, Khebat or Khiba. This goddess, wife of the Hittite Storm-god, is shown riding a lion in a rock-sculpture at Hattusaswhich equates her with Anath-and appears as a form of Ishtar in Hurrian texts. She was worshipped at Jerusalem (see 27. 6). Her Greek name was Hebe, Heracles's goddess-wife.

[modernmagdalene]

Saint and Crystal Associations Part 2

Once again, I’m posting this as a potential resource for other Christian witches or Christian mystics (whatever you call yourself). These are my own personal associations, not official associations of any Christian denominations, so if they don’t feel right for you feel free to use different crystals with different saints. Thanks and enjoy.

Saint Francis of Assisi --> Amber

Francis is best associated with Amber. While not technically a crystal it still is used in a lot of crystal magic. Francis is a very complex saint who helps with a lot of different things: voluntary poverty, helping the poor, antiwar, and oneness with nature. Amber is very old and connected deeply to the earth. It helps with grounding, clarity, patience, wisdom, dissolves negativity, eliminates fear, and balances emotions. All things Francis needed to leave his life of privilege behind and follow God. I think it represents much of who Francis is and can help support the same virtues that Francis represents. 

Saint Brigid --> Opal

St. Brigid would be associated with Opal. Brigid is a saint that is very connected to the goddess Brigid. Their stories are extremely intertwined that you can’t really talk about without the other. Both are connected to fire, love, and hope and that’s all things Opal is connected with as well. I also personally tend to associate Opal with the divine feminine and Brigid connection to a goddess makes that work as well.

Saint Julian of Norwich --> Moonstone

Julian of Norwich I said in a comment that I associated with Lapis Lazuli but then relaized I was already using that crystal with St. Perpetua and Felicity. So I did some more research and decided that Moonstone would work really well for Saint Julian of Norwich. Moonstone is obviously associated with Lunar magick and the moon is also regularly associated with femimine energy. Which works wonders with St. Julian who often depicted God as femimine. One of the things that made her contraversal. St. Julian of Norwich had visions and was a prolific writer. Moonstone helps those seeking wisdom and strengthens psychic abilities. St. Julian of Norwich is also a known cat lover so have moonstone carved into the shape of a cat is even better. 

Saint Mary MacKillop --> Obsidian

(Trigger Warning Mentions of sexual abuse in this.)

Mary MacKillop is the first saint of Australia and one of my favorites! Mary MacKillop reported a priest who was abusing children and not longer after a friend of this priest used his connections to get her excommunicated. Her excommunication was eventually lifted. I have always admired her strength and resilience. That’s why I chose obsidian for her. Obsidian shines a light on the negativity and clears it away, helping us to choose the path leading towards light and love. It is also a protective stone as it used to be used for weapons. If you need to fight the devil obsidian is up there with tourmaline as an excellent crystal to clean house.     

Saint Raphael the Archangel --> Ametrine

St. Raphael the Archangel is another favorite of mine. If you use a Protestant Bible you might not have read about him. Raphael is featured in the Book of Tobit which is only in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles. The Book of Tobit is an epic love story between Tobias and Sarah that also features thievery, exile, and fights with demons. Where Michael and Gabriel tend to appear to humans briefly then leave. Raphael, disguised as a human, travels with Tobias throughout the whole book. Raphael is most associated with healing and I connect him to the crystal ametrine. Ametrine is associated with healing, harmony, strength, balancing physical and spiritual life, and aids in contacting spirit guides. This works with Raphael’s connections to healing. Furthermore, Raphael’s role guiding Tobit and being a spiritual being working on earth makes ametrine perfect in helping to connect with him. Use this stone and ask him to help find balance in your practice and assist you with finding spiritual guides.

Saint Rita --> Smoky Quartz

St. Rita is the patron saint of impossible tasks. She is someone I rely on when I really need to overcome an obstacle or problem in my life. She is also prayed to when someone has a deadly illness or serious problem helping with things that seem impossible to deal with is just her jam. Because of this I associate her most with smoky quartz. This crystal is super powerful and is a great grounding and balancing stone. It absorbs negative energy like a sponge (because of this it should be cleansed often-ish use your best judgement). It’s so useful and can even cleanse other crystals. It keeps all the negativity away from you which is something that one really needs when dealing with impossible situations.

Saint Mary Magdalene --> Celestite

Mary Magdalene is one of my favorite witchy women in the Bible. She wasn’t scared away like the other disciples when Christ was crucified, she was the first to preach about the resurrection, and was active in preaching and teaching others about Christ. One of my favorite stories about her comes from the Orthodox tradition where she was preaching to Emperor Tiberius Caesar about Christ and turned an egg red to prove to the emperor that Christ’s story and power was true. I associate Mary Magdalene most with Celestite. Celestite raises spiritual vibrations, promotes spiritual growth, and aides in communication with the spiritual realm. This crystal also boosts self-worth and self-expression, all things Mary Magdalene had in abundance. Mary Magdalene also seems to be the most connected to the spiritual world out of all the apostles (with the exception of maybe John) so this crystal is perfect for her.

Saint Joan of Arc --> Bloodstone 

St. Joan is a warrior and protector. I also consider her a trans and/or genderfluid saint who will naturally protect trans and genderfluid peoples. Because of this I associate her most with bloodstone. Bloodstone promotes justice and strength, it is also good for healing and renewal, but bloodstone is probably best known for boosting spells and banishing spirits. Or as I prefer to use it, boosting protection spells and banishing TERFs.

Saint Francis de Sales --> Kyanite

St. Francis de Sales is one of my favorite saints purely because he is the patron saint of writers and I am someone who greatly enjoys writing. Kyanite is the crystal I use with this saint. It promotes creativity and also dispels negativity aka those negative thoughts that tell you that you can’t write. It’s also supposed to sharpen your focus which can be especially helpful with writing or any creative work, especially if you are easily distracted like me.

Saint Anthony of Padua --> Amazonite

St. Anthony was one of my grandmother’s favorite saints and probably the saint I use the most in day to day life. He is the patron saint of lost items. He was a devout priest and taught students from a book of psalms. He once tried to preach to people who refused to listen to him. He instead decided to preach to the fish who all started to gather near the shore to listen to him. When people saw this they decided they should listen too. So you know when in doubt preach to fish I guess. Anyway, I associate St. Anthony with amazonite. Amazonite helps sharpen the mind, aids communication and promotes good luck all of which are great attributes for learning and teaching, finding lost items (that’s the good luck bit), and aiding communication could help you talk to people or fish, your call. 

Saint Valentine --> Rose Quartz 

St. Valentine did a lot but he is most associated today with marrying couples in the Christian church during the height of Roman persecution. So naturally I associate him with rose quartz, a crystal that promotes love and fertility, dispels loneliness, opens the heart to compassion, and even strengthens faith. The perfect stone for this romantic saint. 

Saint Scholastica --> Citrine 

St. Scholastica was the twin sister of St. Benedict, and was the founder of the women’s benedictine order. As someone who went to a benedictine college I have a fondness for her. If you are a storm witch in particular I think this might be the saint for you. At one point Benedict and his monks visit Scholastica and her nuns. Scholastica didn’t think she would live long enough to see her brother again after this meeting so begged him to stay the night, but Benedict didn’t want to spend the night outside his monastery and told her he couldn’t. So Scholastica prayed and a massive thunderstorm suddenly came making it unsafe for Benedict and his monks to travel. And here is my favorite bit:

“Realizing what had happened, Benedict reproached her: "What have you done, my sister?” Scholastica answered simply, "I asked a favor of you, and you refused to listen to me. So I asked my God, and He, more generous than you, granted my request.” Once again Scholastica’s pleas won the favor she was seeking.” 

With Scholastica I associate the crystal citrine. Citrine is all about manifesting change, protection, creativity, and success all things she needed to live the life she did.

Saint Dymphna --> Blue Lace Agate

St. Dymphna is one of my favorite saints and she is one I utilize often. She is most associated with mental and emotional illnesses. If you are a spoonie witch this is the saint for you. Because of this I associate her most with Blue Lace Agate, which helps people express themselves (helpful when going to therapy or a doctor) and also helps with dealing with any sorts of fears or anxiety. (Reminder: That utilizing this saint and crystal is meant as a prayerful way to ask for help dealing with mental and emotional illness. It is not a replacement for therapy or meds.)

St. Sara-la-Kali --> Jasper

St. Sara-la-Kali is the patroness of the Romani people. She is said to have helped the Three Marys of the Bible arrive safely in Gaul after she had a vision of them arriving. She used her dress as a raft and helped the women get to shore despite the tumultuous waves. She was also extremely generous and often collected alms for the poor. I associate her most with jasper. A crystal native to Romania it aids in peace and wisdom and also is particularly helpful during times of transition by providing stability and protection. It also supports perseverance and acceptance, something we definitely need Sara's help with right now.

[marquisoforder]

𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕹𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝕻𝖗𝖎𝖓𝖈𝖊𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕳𝖊𝖑𝖑 - 𝕻𝖆𝖗𝖙 𝟏/𝟐

𝕷𝖊𝖛𝖎𝖆𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓

“In that day the Lord will take his terrible, swift sword and punish Leviathan, the swiftly moving serpent, the coiling, writhing serpent. He will kill the dragon of the sea.” - Isaiah 27:1

𝐋𝐮𝐨 𝐘𝐮𝐧𝐱𝐢 𝐚𝐬 𝐋𝐞𝐯𝐢𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐃𝐫𝐚𝐠𝐨𝐧 𝐨𝐟 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐒𝐞𝐚

Leviathan is a Greater Demon; particularly one of the Princes of Hell. He is the prince of envy, chaos, and the sea. Leviathan is one of the oldest Princes of Hell. Unlike the others, Leviathan was not a Fallen Angel and is considered to have always been a monster. He was actually born with a twin sister who he later murdered and ate.

𝕸𝖆𝖒𝖒𝖔𝖓

“No man can serve two masters: for either he. will hate the one, and love the other; or else. he will hold to the one, and despise the other, Ye cannot serve God and Mammon.” - Mathew 6:24

𝐋𝐞𝐢𝐟 𝐒𝐭𝐚𝐜𝐞𝐲 𝐚𝐬 𝐌𝐚𝐦𝐦𝐨𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐏𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐨𝐟 𝐖𝐞𝐚𝐥𝐭𝐡 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐆𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐝

Mammon is the prince of greed and wealth and he is well-known to be bribable. Mammon fell from Heaven when he convinced Lucifer that they should use the wealth of Hell to control the universe. He is now believed to run Hell's bank.

𝕬𝖘𝖒𝖔𝖉𝖊𝖚𝖘

“For she had been married to seven husbands, and the wicked demon Asmodeus had killed each of them before they had been with her.” - Tobit 3:8

𝐌𝐚𝐝𝐬 𝐌𝐢𝐤𝐤𝐞𝐥𝐬𝐞𝐧 𝐚𝐬 𝐀𝐬𝐦𝐨𝐝𝐞𝐮𝐬 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐏𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐨𝐟 𝐋𝐮𝐬𝐭

Asmodeus is associated with the sin of lust and described as "the worst of demons". Asmodeus was one of Lucifer's followers who fell with him in his uprising against Heaven. After being cast out of Heaven, he battled the angel Raphael. He was banished to Hell, along with the others, and Asmodeus soon became the ruler of his and Lilith's own realm, Edom.

𝕭𝖊𝖑𝖕𝖍𝖆𝖌𝖔𝖗

“They yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor and ate sacrifices offered to lifeless gods;” - Psalm 106:28

𝐌𝐞𝐤𝐡𝐢 𝐋𝐮𝐜𝐤𝐲 𝐚𝐬 𝐁𝐞𝐥𝐩𝐡𝐞𝐠𝐨𝐫 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐏𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐨𝐟 𝐒𝐥𝐨𝐭𝐡

Belphegor is considered the prince of sloth, tricksters, and charletons. While the name Belphegor itself is not in the Bible, Baal of Peor, or Baal-Peor is. He was one of Lucifer's followers who fell with him in his uprising against Heaven. They were banished to Hell, and Belphegor was given a realm to rule as they all were. At one point during the centuries, his brother Belial stole this realm from him and greatly wounded him in the process. It is believed he still floats between worlds trying to find his way back.

[feenyxblue]

Hi! I'm real ignorant so if this is a dumb question feel free to ignore this. But I just found out that the Catholic Bible has 7 more books than the Protestant one? (I was raised Methodist so this was a big shock to me) And I was just wondering what those 7 books are? Where they are and what they're about and stuff. Thanks!

Well, yeah. There are seven more books, and the reasons behind why this is is complicated from a theology/archeology perspective, but simple from a historical perspective (Martin Luther revived fourth century discourse). In addition, Daniel and Esther are longer in the Catholic Bible compared to the Protestant Bible. I'm gonna run through each book with a little bit of what it is.

Tobit: the first of the novellas. Our main man, Tobit, is a holy man who undergoes many trials at the beginning, culminating in him being blinded. After this, his son, Tobias, gets sent off to retrieve some money from Media that Tobit remembered. Hes accompanied by the archangel Raphel, in disguise as a man. Meanwhile in Media, a young woman, Sarah, has just had her seventh would be husband die on her. She has a demon thing going on, where the demon will kill anyone who tries to marry her. Tobit and Raphael, after some fishing shenanigans in which various fish parts are acquired, arrive on the scene. Raphel, literal wingman, tells Tobias "Dude, you could totally marry Sarah, who is totally awesome. I'm gonna set you up and everything!" And Tobias says "Dude, the demon thing already killed seven men. I would prefer not to" Raphel: "She will please your dad. You can use some of the fish guts to drive away the demon by burning them, since they're rank. Then pray to God. You got this." Fish guts are burned, prayer is offered to God, and the happy couple is finally wed. Meanwhile, Sarah's dad got the rest of the household to dig a grave for Tobias, so that's quickly filled in. Then Sarah, Tobias, and Raphel go home, the remaining fish guts are used to restore Tobit's sight, Raphel gives some advice and then reveals himself to be an angel, and leaves. Tobit is happy and dies in peace. Tobias dies of old age in the epilogue. This story is referenced in the Gospels, when the Sadduces approach Jesus and ask him about a woman who has been married seven times, and all her husbands died.

Judith: another one of the novellas, our main hero is Judith, a Jewish widow. At the beginning theres a long war campaign sum up, which basically amounts to Holofernes is the toughest dude around. He eventually wages war against Israel. The end result is the Israelites are surrounded. The Israelites are surrounded, and Judith says "1. God will deliver us, 2. Let me and my maid go through the city, and God will deliver Israel through me" Judith prays, heads out, and manages to get an audience with Holofernes (she is a very pretty lady). She talks with Holofernes, and in her monologue uses a lot of wriggly ambiguous language, so Holofernes thinks she is talking about Nebecennezzer when she is talking about God. Holofernes is pleased by this, so he invites Judith to dinner. Judith then beheads Holofernes, and takes his head and goes back home. Judith shows his head, comes up with a good battle plan, the enemies are destroyed, and the Israelites celebrate.

1 Macabees: an independent account of the attempted suppression of Judaism in the second century BC (175-134 BC). The main character is Judas, son of Mattias, head of the revolution. It is classified as a novella.

2 Macabees: Covers the same rebellion, from 180-161 BC. Much like the Gospels tell the same story different ways, 1 and 2 Macabees tell the same historical events from different perspectives. It is also classified as a novella.

Wisdom: written in 50 BC, it's a poetic exhortation to live a holy life. Its classified as a book of Wisdom/poetry. Some of the language in Wisdom is echoed in the New Testament. Wisdom 2:24 "but by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are allied with him experience it" mirrors Paul's "sin entered the world, and death through sin"

Ben Sira: another book of wisdom, Ben Sira is another exhortation to live a holy life. Most of the book is moral instruction, but the last bit is about the heroes of Israel, gratitude to God, and an invitation for the unschooled to find true wisdom.

Baruch: a book of prophecy, its addressed to King Jechoniah (in Babylon). It can be divided into four parts: 1. The Letter to Jerusalem, filling in on the history, and guilt/deliverance, 2. Praise of Wisdom, 3. Baruch's poem of consolation, 4. Letter of Jeremiah, which is "don't worship Babylonian gods". John Calvin thought that Baruch should be in the Protestant Bible instead of Esther

And, since I think it's important since the books differ:

Esther: first off, its classified as a novella. It's an entirely different read in the Catholic bible, beginning with Mordecai's dream and an assasination attempt on the king. Then the banquet and deposition of Vashti. From there it follows roughly the same plot, but also contains prayers of Mordecai and Esther, official documents, etc. God is mentioned a lot in the Catholic version compared to the Protestant version.

Daniel: Chapter 3 has an awesome prayer in it, spanning from verse 24 to verse 90. It is very long, and a good read if you have the time. Daniel 13 and 14 have two short stories in them to cap off the book. The first is of Susana, who had two elders attempt to assault her. In retaliation, the elders falsely accuse Susanna of trying to seduce them. Susanna asks God to intervene, and a boy Daniel reveals the lie. The two elders are then killed. The second one is Bel and the Dragon, wherein one Daniel calls out the king for worshipping Bel, a false idol. The king says "no, he clearly eats and drinks the sacrifices I lay out for him" Daniel says "you're wrong" and the king says "prove it, or you'll die." So the king offered his sacrifices, and Daniel had ashes spread across the room, before it was sealed. Turns out, the priests of Bel would sneak into the chamber through a secret entrance and eat everything, which was proved by the footprints left by the ashes. The priests revealed this, and then they were killed. Then there was a dragon the Babylonians worshipped, and Daniel killed with some pitch, fat, and hair cakes (after getting permission from the king). From here Daniel gets thrown into the lion's den, Habbakkuk brings him a meal, and Daniel is brought out alive. The people who tried to kill him are then thrown into the lion's den.

[guiltywisdom]

On a Much Lighter Note... a simple opinion question if you got input! Still prot atm and reading through the bible w my siblings, and ive read 1 (and a half) of the book(s) not in the prot canon.. which book do you think i should introduce to my sibs first after we finish the prot canon? - c

I myself haven’t read all the deuterocanonical books (I’m actually slowly reading them as my readings) but out of the ones I have read it really depends which you are interested in BUT I think one that has the most wisdom (especially something prots are missing) is the Wisdom of Sirach (sometimes just called the Book of Sirach)!

My child, when you come to serve the Lord,    prepare yourself for testing. Set your heart right and be steadfast,    and do not be impetuous in time of calamity. Cling to him and do not depart,    so that your last days may be prosperous. Accept whatever befalls you,    and in times of humiliation be patient. For gold is tested in the fire,    and those found acceptable, in the furnace of humiliation. Trust in him, and he will help you;    make your ways straight, and hope in him. (Sirach 2:1-6 NRSV)

Also if you want to read about demons and angels (with strong Jewish themes), try Tobit. For a story about a strong woman in a leadership position, try Judith. 

[ehyeh-joshua]

Soooo yesterday I saw someone saying that the Book of Mormon is really true and that’s the only way to be saved but as a Christian I feel the bible is the only thing we need to take in as Gods word but it stresses me out to think there could be ‘something else’ because I guess I’m confused slightly??? What’s your take

The book of mormon is a total fraud. Supposedly, it was translated from golden plates, but every single one of the witnesses to those plates either left the Mormon church or were kicked out.

Later on, actual Egyptologists read the source document that the LDS verified as genuine - in reality, it was a funeral rite. Smith managed to screw up the “translation” completely, repeatedly managing to translate what was the same word in the original, into dozens of ways in his translation; the worst of these unfortunate words was the name of the moon god, who he managed to translate 177 different words from. (none of which were correct) 

The book of mormon, in isolation, is a mildly intriguing ahistorical and anachronological work of fiction, detailing events about a people for whom not one piece of evidence exists, onto which has been haphazardly thrown psuedo-JudaeoChristian morals. Frankly though, Smith should have been stoned to death as a false prophet.

---

In terms of a hierarchy of canonicity of God’s Word, the conventional understanding is the Old and New Testaments being at the top, with denominational tradition either being placed alongside equally or as theoretically secondary authority.

The reality is a bit more complex; at the top for Scripture is the Torah; every Believer since Moses has accepted the Torah as having the weight of Scripture. (Believers from before Moses are known to have had some written documentation, such as the base Moses used for documenting Genesis) 

On an equal level to the Torah to almost everyone - and every group of Judaeo-Christians extant today - is the Prophets and the Writings; what we consider the rest of the Old Testament. (there are minor differences between a Tanakh and the OT though; a Tanakh for example has dozens of verses extra because the Psalms have the introductory statement to a Psalm as a separate verse)

For Christians, Jesus Himself canonised the Tanakh by His proclamation about the Torah and Prophets as authentic Scripture.

On the New Testament, personally I would have liked it if Paul’s other two letters that were mentioned in the surviving letters to the Corinthians were preserved, but they weren’t. In any case, everything that we consider Scripture was established as such before the end of the 1st century AD, with MSS evidence from the 2nd century onwards.

After that you have the Deuterocanon, which is generally regarded as below Scripture; the only group to consider it fully Scripture are Catholics, and they didn’t officially codify that belief until the 1600s.  (it also has to be remembered that some of the Deuterocanon is purely fictional; Tobit for example, is historical fiction that invokes real people in its narrative)

After that, there are a few books which are mentioned in Scripture or as apocryphal works by members of the early church, or are 5th to 1st century BC origin - the Book of Yasher and the Book of Enoch for example - but are of unknown provenance today owing to the passage of time, and have never been considered as true Scripture by anyone.

Outside of Christian authorship, there’s also a few works of Jewish authorship based upon the Torah/Tanakh that i would consider advisable to at least be aware of, even for Christians - things like the Shulchan Aruch (1500s commentary on Jewish law) the Talmud (in Jerusalem and Babylonian forms, codified 200-500 AD) the Mishnah (oral tradition formed as the base of the Talmud, cited by Jesus and several apostles) the Zohar (a kabbalistic commentary on the Torah) and the Targums (a translation of the Tanakh into Aramaic) that have intriguing elements of commentary and elucidation with a contemporaneous nature to Jesus and the apostles and in some cases formed the background understanding of the Messianic Jewish cult called the Way before it got taken over by Gentiles towards the end of the 1st century. What has to be remembered is that the character of the Scriptures is entirely Jewish in nature, and that Jesus and the apostles with specific instruction in Judaism were all Pharasaic-Rabbinical Jews. (with John the Baptist being an Essene)

Here ends the books that actually deserve to be looked at on merit to some extent; we have just plain fraudulent bits after these, such as the various false gospels (which date to the 400s+ AD, in contrast to the true gospels that were written by either eyewitnesses to the events, or the following generation based on firsthand sources) that were known as fakes in period and occasionally get brought up by people.

And finally, we have the Book of Mormon places here, as at least while the fake gospels are fake, there are at least genuinely from the period, and therefore have a minimum value as historic artefacts. The book of mormon however, is 19th century fiction.

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In summary, for every group of Believers, God’s Word has always been sufficient for them. What goes for everyone however, is that the book of mormon is heretical nonsense.